AmpersandUnderscore
AmpersandUnderscore
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The only way to lose a health state currently is by interactions with the killer or the killer's power. Having a perk that takes a health state on it's own, let alone one that would do so from anywhere on the map is obscenely overpowered and would be impossible to balance.
The synergy with blood echo alone would be enough to snowball into several hooks, especially if the killer has any mobility whatsoever.
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@StarLost said:
Okay.
Let's go point by point.
- This game cannot be balanced around solo players. In an SWF, it's not hard to say 'let go'. The reason this game has to be balanced around SWF is because survivors can choose to play solo or in a team, and killers have no choice - your next game could be against a 4man.
- No, saying that killers need muscular regression perks because of how fast gens can potentially move now is a perfectly valid statement. Because it's true. If the incap is really the complaint here, then - as a lot of folks have suggested - just make it a gen block. But you and I both know that this won't even slow the QQ train down. Also - you do realize that, to get Eruption off, the killer actually needs to chase and down someone, right? I'd say that most folks care less about 'fun' than about 'winning'. Because, for most folks, winning is fun.
- 'Fun' is subjective. See above. It's all good and well to say 'well, killers should play in x way because that's more fun to me' - but A. that ignores what is fun for the killer and B. is not the reality on the ground. Balance does not occur in a vacuum.
- Irrelevant. Moving on.
- Anyone using Overcharge is playing the game wrong. This perk sucks, no matter how you slice it - and is only really useful in skillcheck builds. It takes 12 seconds to reach regular regression rates.
- Lazy strawman. Moving on.
- The issue isn't design here, really. It's pure psychology. You can follow the complaint train (comtrain?) about literally whatever the killer meta is at any point in time, right from the start. For the longest time it was Ruin. Then Ruin+Undying. Then still Ruin+Undying, after it got nerfed. Then it was PR+DMS. Then 6.1.0 happened and it was Overcharge. Then Thana. Then STBFL. Then PR+DMS again. Now it's Eruption. In most of these cases, the complaining led to these perks being nerfed into near uselessness. There are 4 survivors to every killer per match, meaning four more people to get salty and blame the killer/playstyle/perks/teammates for their loss rather than saying 'well, I made mistakes'.
Eruption will probably get Thana'd before too long. Then we'll be back to complaining about PR+DMS or STBFL until that gets gutted. And on and on we go.
Eruption...not sure what you mean by 'numbers'. It's strong if you get hit by it, but you can take steps to avoid this. You can't just talk about one thing in this game, because balance doesn't work like that. It's all well and good to say 'well, killers being crap doesn't bother me if I'm having fun' - but that's incredibly selfish.
The reason you see Eruption, CoB and/or PR so much is because...what else are killers going to run? Ruin and Thana aren't worth using anymore. Surge and Penti are unreliable. Overcharge and Oppression are terrible. Info perks get redundant and there aren't many universally good lethality perks. Because of how fast gens can potentially move - killers need to go in prepared for it.
The solution is to take some agency and find an SWF - which is super easy to do, by the way, they're always popping on the DbD Discord. Or run an aura reading perk and use some gamesense to try and let go in time.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3323024#Comment_3323024
As others have suggested - make it a 40 second gen block, to compensate for the lost regression.
Do you think that will end the moaning? (Spoiler: not a chance).
It's not the incap. It's that this perk requires survivors to be a bit proactive, apply a bit of gamesense and let go for a few seconds.
A 40 second gen block is still ridiculous imo. Aside from corrupt intervention (2 mins), the only other perk that blocks gens that long is grim embrace (40s), and that only triggers once per game. The other gen block perks are DMS, Deadlock, and repressed alliance at 30 seconds, and all of those have restrictions. DMS is limited duration and only after a hook, dead lock can only block one gen, and repressed must be earned and only affects one gen. Thrilling tremors is at most 15 or so seconds.
Eruption with this effect is essentially just a grim embrace on every down, if no actual restrictions are added to the perk. And even if it isn't 'every gen' (it could be), it'll at least be 'every essential gen'.
I'd much rather have survivors be affected by an 'Erupted' debuff for 30 seconds, that reduces gen repair speed by 50% for 30 seconds and nothing else. Even if survivors stay on the gen after being debuffed, it'll take 18 seconds to break even with the 10% initial hit, and give slowdown beyond that. Give survivors a choice to work on the gen at the speed of smell or go do literally anything else at full speed.
It's not 'letting go for a few seconds' tho, that's the problem. Even if I grant that 'knowing someone is in chase' is game sense in every possible situation, it could be you're letting go for a few seconds or two minutes. You have zero idea how long that chase will last unless you have a clear line of sight to watch it happening, or you're on comms. Even gen tapping is just down to lucky timing unless you have eyes on the killer.
And until they add the 'chase indicator' for everyone, you may not have any idea that the injured, non-obsession survivor is in danger across the map. There's no amount of 'game sense' that overcomes that. Luck could, and perks that rely on lucky timing to show you auras. Or your friend on discord.
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When I started playing a few years ago, I was switching games with a couple friends. We had one guy who had played DBD for a while and was willing to play with us to get started.
It was really helpful to have a veteran player when I first started out. Having no clue what any of the perks were or what was happening was kind of overwhelming. I think we annoyed the veteran sometimes with how bad we were.
I feel like it's gotten less casual since MMR was introduced. I'm not entirely convinced it's all matchmaking either, it's more like the player base heard 'rated games' and everything except winning stopped mattering.
I used to be able to just play the game, and most games were just fun even if I didn't survive. It was a gg, and into the next round. Now the 'fun' games are harder to find, and I think that's because 'winning' play styles are generally less fun to go against.
I much prefer having fun, losing games to boring or sweaty wins. I'm not sure there's any going back tho. I miss the feel of DBD as more of a chill 'party game'.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3323010#Comment_3323010
"Locating survivors is a key part of the killer role, which is why there are over a dozen different killer perks designed to find people. This includes things like iron maiden, whispers, and spies from the shadows, which are always active and don't even rely on auras or trigger conditions like hooks."
Of which is built around the assumption that they will be attempting the games objectives and progressing it further. Yes, it is extremely easy to find survivors in this context. This is also not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about ignoring objectives on outskirts of the maps and rotating lockers. There is no killer experience or intuition for that.
"You're saying you have room in your build and are completely destroying lobbies most of the time. In that case, I'm sure you can continue to annihilate teams with these perks and not break a sweat."
You're missing the entire point. So because survivors have the ability to take a game hostage (bad design), I should have to waste a perk slot to prevent griefing?
I'm talking about hiding at the edge of the map. That's exactly what perks like whispers and spies are for. Locker hopping is why I recommended iron maiden. I think you could really benefit from reading what these perks do.
Never said it wasn't 'reportable', 'unsportsmanlike', 'bm', or ######### behavior. It's all those things. Neither you nor I can change those survivors behavior. Period. But you can play differently to try to counteract it if it's impacting your game 'regularly'. That's the only thing you have any control over.
If you have an 'extreme problem' with people hopping in lockers and blindly refuse to consider perks that might be useful in that situation, then I wish you the best of luck.
Edit: autocorrect.
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@WesCravenFan said:
If "unfun to play against" is being considered a serious argument I have a large Santa Clause style scroll of things I wanted removed from the game....
The problem isn't simply that it's an unfun perk, it's that the perk removes a player from normal gameplay. It's essentially a stun, or most games call it a 'silence' effect, where you can't do much more than move around with your character.
Most perks/effects in the game that remove a player from gameplay have either a warning/telegraph, or a form of counterplay. Sometimes both.
The biggest form of counterplay is interaction with the opposing team. So, being removed from play by being hooked or slugged, for example, has counterplay of looping and directly interacting with the killer. You can use mind games, players make mistakes, etc.
There are exactly two perks in the game that remove a player from normal gameplay, have no warning or telegraph, and do not involve direct interaction with another player. These perks are Blast Mine and Eruption.
Blast Mine must be earned, can only apply to one generator at a time, and expires after 60 seconds regardless of if it triggered. It's also generally considered one of the 'fairer' perks in the game because it has all of these restrictions.
Eruption, on the other hand, has no activation requirement (like pop with hooking a survivor), can be applied to any number of gens at the same time, and never expires. Even the cooldown isn't limiting because it's barely longer than the stun at 30 seconds, and triggers on down, not on kick. The perk is effectively always available to use.
Eruption needs a restriction to when it can be used at minimum, or reworked entirely. Maybe both.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3322955#Comment_3322955
It is extremely common, like multiple times a day. You also seem to jump to a whole lot of conclusions. Lastly no, it is not 4 slow down perks. Wasting people’s time by hiding around the map no where near gens and rotating lockers around the map is a killer skill issue? What? If you don’t see this happening you might be playing killler at low mmr where people don’t care about sweating it out for the hatch or know how to properly hide when they have no intent of touching objectives and want to stall out the game.
Not sure what to tell you.
Locating survivors is a key part of the killer role, which is why there are over a dozen different killer perks designed to find people. This includes things like iron maiden, whispers, and spies from the shadows, which are always active and don't even rely on auras or trigger conditions like hooks.
You're saying you have room in your build and are completely destroying lobbies most of the time. In that case, I'm sure you can continue to annihilate teams with these perks and not break a sweat.
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@Ripley said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3322955#Comment_3322955
If you've never seen it, then it doesn't exist right? Clearly a "skill issue" in comprehending other peoples experiences.
Didn't say it doesn't exist. But there's only a handful of realistic reasons that I wouldn't be seeing it when other people are claiming it's everywhere.
Maybe 'excessive hiding' is only at the lowest levels of MMR. I'm color blind, so maybe I pick up on survivors trying to blend into their environment differently than other people do. Maybe I'm patrolling differently since hidey survivors often scatter at the first sign of a killer. Maybe it's because I'm running lethal and darkness revealed and other people are running with zero information.
I also never said I haven't had people *try* to hide from me. But whether it's general game sense, or terror radius mind games, or whatever the reason I have so far always been able to find one of them.
Honestly, the main reason is likely because I run 1-2 information perks in most of my builds and always have a general idea of where the survivors are most of the game.
But if you're seeing this 'a lot', you will never get to pick your survivors or how they play. The only thing you have any control over is your own build and gameplay.
Edit: phrasing.
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@Xernoton said:
To be fair killers would camp and tunnel regardless of how 'fair' maps are. Because why wouldn't a killer tunnel or camp if that is the most effective play style for them? Chasing takes a lot of time and is risky, meanwhile camping is a safer option to get something in the next 60s. With tunneling it's the same.
However, the game could be balanced around chases more (allowing the devs to restrict tunneling and camping a bit more), if maps weren't this busted. Eyrie is getting a rework (Thank heavens!) but what about Mother's Dwelling, all Badhams, the swamp maps, Garden of Joy and whatever the Groaning Storehouse is supposed to be.
Not to mention, the changes people request most often are also a direct buff to tunneling.
Making maps smaller, removing resources for survivors, and 'not having chainable tiles' (aka: create more dead zones) all make it easier to tunnel someone off hook too.
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This is a known bug currently, and I think it's addressed in the next midchapter patch. (I sure hope so). That should be coming out next week, ideally.
But yeah, I'd recommend not playing the twins until after the patch. Honestly kinda surprised they haven't kill switched the character until then.
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@Blueberry said:
The last 2 survivors just hiding and refusing to touch anything is extremely common. I think if no objective has been worked on after a set amount of time said survivor should get crows.
I have 1200 hours in this game and have never once experienced this scenario. I'm don't see how this can be 'extremely common' to face, outside of hyperbole.
The only way I can possibly imagine people are seeing this more often than extremely *rarely* comes down to how good you are at hunting survivors as a killer.
In my mind, it's literally a skill issue, and if it's really so common that you see it 'all the time' then whispers should be a permanent part of every loadout for you. Because this also means that you're stomping games 'extremely commonly' and probably don't need all 4 of your current perks to get to the '2 survivors left at 2+ gens' stage of the game. Let's be honest, it's probably 4 slowdowns and no information perks, isn't it?
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A neat and original idea, I kinda like it. It's a bit like a breakable wall, but vaultable. The only concerns really are how it gets permanently destroyed and the set up time.
It'd have to take something like 6-8 seconds to set up so it can't be done easily in chase (or done for you in chase).
It probably shouldn't take much to destroy, like dredge breaking a lock. Although the hit box would have to not suck, which seems to be a challenge for other mechanics like this (looking at you, boon totem). I'd also say if the entity would block the vault for any reason, including bamboozle or crowd control, the vault is automatically destroyed instead.
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Or you could let survivors on the ground give up instead, and award the killer hook stages, etc was though they were sacrificed.
Which not only solves your exact scenario but also pretty much every situation where slugging is used to grief or bm.
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@Unimatrix00 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3322658#Comment_3322658
The hostage situation with two survivors left over is only considered bannable if it's for an extended period of time. So, hiding for a minute or two isn't going to get you banned, I doubt at least. Whereas, hiding for 5+ minutes is starting to get excessive.
It's also situational.
For example, in a 'slugging for the 4k' scenario, it takes 4 minutes for survivor #3 to bleed out, then looking for hatch, then up to 2 minutes for the EGC exit gates standoff.
In that situation, they've specifically said that hiding isn't 'excessive or reportable' because the game is considered to be 'progressing' the entire time.
But even though that could lead to 6+ minutes of constant stealthing by the final survivor, the last person isn't required to work on gens while the other survivor is bleeding out.
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@Raccoon said:
Friendly reminder that killers are free to:
Slug for a 4k
Kill you however they want, including slugging/camping/tunneling or whatever else irks you
These are the realities when you queue for any match.
The killer is also incapable of changing the game's code or ruleset, in case you are unaware.
What's your point supposed to be?
Survivors were free to click flashlights and team up for extended double locker saves... Until the devs changed it.
The op is a question, to the devs, on their official forums, asking for an update on a system they PTB tested that we haven't really heard much about since. Last update was that they're 'assessing feedback and reconsidering the options'.
But BHVR's 'infinite unbreakable' test is literally a solution to reduce or eliminate slugging, even if generally panned as flawed.
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@RainehDaze said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3322206#Comment_3322206
A lot of people, myself included, wouldn't have the same complaint about Sprint Burst. Because the issue with Dead Hard is how much it distorts how you have to play everything, and how it consistently requires players to either waste a swing or act in a way that is completely damaging to their own chase if the person doesn't have Dead Hard (and it's only not damaging for DH because the alternative is worse).
And SB doesn't have anywhere near the same "eat someone's power" potential.
It's all academic, since we haven't seen an extended sprint burst meta.
But when 99%, a well timed Sprint burst is no different from the old dead hard for distance. You can bait swings and run away, guarantee getting to that next pallet, etc. Pretty much anything you can do with 'distance on demand' is on the table.
The only thing SB can't do that old dead hard could is 'dead hard in place', but you can't do that anymore anyway.
Cracked survivors can already get value out of 99% Sprint burst, it's just that dead hard is easier to use, so more people run that.
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@Gamall said:
Against skilled and efficiently survivors you need to play nasty and efficiently.
Against unskilled and chill survivors you can play whatever you want.
end
This. At least as killer, if you stop caring about 'winning every single game', you win more games.
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Remove slugging for the 4k and this problem goes away entirely.
I'm generally a fan of the idea of hatch, because the game only functions if survivors have hope. Survivors without a hope of escape leads to an excessive amount of disconnecting and giving up.
But as a thought experiment, let's take your suggestion at face value and delete hatch. Slugging for the 4k goes away entirely, so that's a bonus.
Instead of 'the last 2 survivors hiding', now it's only the last 1, and now the killer has no means to trigger the EGC. So you're in the exact same scenario, but with half as many survivors you could possibly find, and literally no way to progress the game yourself by closing hatch.
But since nearly every 3k becomes a guaranteed 4k, you've driven up kill rates across the board. So I guess killers get to be blanket nerfed too.
I'm not sure that deleting hatch will really get you what you want.
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Absolutely not.
If you think the ai in this game is great, you should exclusively play nemesis or knight and nothing else. Pathing in particular for the survivor bots can be pretty awful on some areas. Especially when a player can find an area where they infinitely pace back and forth doing nothing (coldwind harvesters at minimum).
I never want to be in a game where a killer can farm their power on a bot and go use it on the remaining players. Oni would get infinite blood and Myers gets free stalk for starters. The bots play around the terror radius, so any stealth or insidious killer can infinitely bait them into unsafe unhooks or pickups, they aren't going to learn that Ghostie is just stalking from the corner, camping. Slug for bait and infinite Jolt value.
Or a host of perks that players can counter play, but bots won't. Does the bot unhook the guy on his first hook or go look for the devour hope totem at 4 stacks? Can the bot play around pain resonance+ DMS? Does the bot cleanse their plaything totem or play around the likely pentimento combo?
Or how about using map resources? Do they lock every locker vs dredge or save some for later? Do they throw every pallet? Can't wait to get shelter woods but the bot has made half the map a dead zone for no reason.
And the bot will always be killed last. Always. 100% someone will find a way to have the bot stuck in an infinite loop of picking up the last downed player only to have the player instantly knocked back to the ground. It's like bleeding out for 4 minutes, but longer.
So, again, absolutely not.
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They can't really turn the DC penalty up too high, or else actual disconnect situations punish the player. As frustrating as rage quitting can be, BHVR has to consider this scenario too when designing penalties.
I feel like a lot of these 'first down I quit' scenarios are a symptom of tunneling being too strong.
There are a strangely high number of games where the first player is sacrificed in the first 3-4 hooks of the game. It puts a lot of pressure on the first chase going reasonably well for survivors. A fast first down sends the message that you're the weak link and key to an easy win.
That first player killed in that scenario gets, what, 5k BP tops, a depip, and they don't get to play the game. If they stick around they get to be a good person and teammate... which they could also do if they got to play the game. Even if they recognize that it's time to take a break after a couple tilting games in a row, they've already decided to stop playing for a while, and a 12 hour timeout isn't going to slow them down.
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So, add 30 seconds to a gen making it 2 minutes base. Then don't touch gen blocking or slowdown, only regression.
So Pentimento alone would make gens take 171 seconds, then deadlock delays it even further. With no way to increase that speed.
Meanwhile, you've giga buffed camping since it becomes as fast to face camp a survivor for two entire hook stages as it does to do a base gen.
Add in corrupt intervention and every game is a 3v1 right about the time the first gen is completed.
...
How about no.
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@RainehDaze said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3322125#Comment_3322125
The thing is, we wound up with basically the exact same Survivor perks. That's what I mean by the meta didn't move.
Literally the only thing that's stayed gone is Borrowed Time. Dead Hard is ubiquitous to the point of nausea once more.
But that's kind of my point. There's essentially no competition in what the perks are for.
BT, Iron will, and DS basically got replaced by OTR. Even if you wanted to run a 'maximal' anti tunnel build, you can only stack OTR with DS, and DS is laughably bad with only a 2 second head start.
If you don't want to rely on grab bag teammates for healing, the options are self care, CoH, or medkit. Self care was also nerfed, and even pharmacy got a questionable change.
Unbreakable is still the most consistent way to get yourself off the ground. Exponential could be either to far away to be useful, or to close and get snuffed before you get up. No mither is just asking to be targeted.
Windows of opportunity has actually jumped up in usage to become more popular than before. But again, there's not really an information perk that is useful in chase to compete with it either.
The perk I assume people actually mean when they say 'meta hasn't changed' is dead hard. A perk that can be used on demand will always be preferable to any situational exhaustion perk. Good luck getting consistent balanced landing value on autohaven, for example.
Even if dead hard was deleted completely, people would just move to complaining about 99'd Sprint burst after a couple months instead.
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Win the game as completely as possible, but without playing like a jerk to do so.
That sounds like an actual challenge. An... Achievement even.
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@RainehDaze said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3322078#Comment_3322078
The time between cycles isn't the big issue here, it's the fact that the last attempt to change the meta wound up with the Survivor meta almost back where it started.
Survivor meta won't change significantly until there are core gameplay changes, not perk balance. The meta will always include perks to combat camping, tunneling, and slugging because killers can always choose to use these strategies at any time, regardless of their perks. Until camping and tunneling become so inefficient as to be basically non-existent, you'll always see these perks, no matter how many nerfs are thrown at them.
Killer gameplay though shifts entirely just with perk changes. Nerfing ruin and buffing a few kick perks was enough to get most killers to change their play style from pressure, always being in chase, and trying to end chases quickly (where 'gens aren't worth the time to kick'), to dropping chase to make sure no gen is ever left unkicked.
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@LordSturm said:
It's the same for both sides, survivor meta is pretty much the same as it was before the meta rework except Decisive Strike is replaced with Off the Record lol
Eh, kinda. Survivors are gonna run anti camping and anti tunneling perks until those stop being 'efficient strategies'. Chase/exhaustion perks will always be popular. The perks may rotate a bit, but the gameplay won't.
I'd say killer meta absolutely changed. It used to be the mantra that 'gens aren't worth kicking', but now a lot of killers prioritize kicking gens over chases. Even info perks like BBQ were replaced by nowhere to hide or a fourth slowdown, so the entire build revolves around regression instead hooks or pressure. Both perks and gameplay have shifted there.
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Get rid of incapacitation and replace it with an Erupted debuff that reduces gen repair speed by 50% on that survivor for 30 seconds.
It'll take 18 seconds to recover the lost progress even if they keep working the gen. That's still huge slowdown. And even better if they tap the gen to stop regression and go do something else until the debuff wears off.
Force survivors to choose between 'repair at the speed of smell' or 'go do anything else at full speed'. But at least they can still play the game.
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@Tostapane said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3321065#Comment_3321065
i would gladly put your "op" myers aganist a decend team in the borgo map just to do an example... you'll change your idea rather quickly trust me
Your 'counter' to tuft or TP is to give him a map with huge lines of sight and very few los blockers?
I'm not sure that you've ever played Myers. And since I'm sure it'll be relevant: you can pick out a 3 gen on literally any map in the game at the start and corrupt intervention exists.
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This sounds like a bug tbh. Have you reported this on the bug forums?
I can't think of a reason any map would intentionally have only two spawn points for that.
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@TheWheelOfCheese said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3321066#Comment_3321066
If played correctly, it is exactly not a risk at all. DH at a pallet is one of the least risky plays one can make with DH because the killer loses no matter which play they make. It's only "risky" if the survivor misjudges the distance, which is not the fault of DH.
You're clearly admitting that the success of dead hard is dependent on things like skill, latency, etc.
So, then, if the survivor fails to do those things we'll call it their 'penalty' for failure. But if they can pull it off, let's say they 'win a prize'.
So dead hard is a 'penalty' vs 'prize' perk.
That sounds awkward. There must be some other, alliterative mnemonic phrasing we could use to describe this phenomenon.
Hmmm.
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@TheWheelOfCheese said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3321053#Comment_3321053
Well... sure, you can use lots of perks to make risky plays. But the perk is not inherently high-risk. You can find stupid high-risk ways to use it, sure. But those uses aren't the problem.
Those uses are exactly the reasons killers hate dead hard. One of the biggest complaints on this forum about the perk is this situation here:
I could throw this pallet now and gain distance, but I'm going to loop one more time and hope I time DH correctly.
Foregoing the safe play for a riskier move that may or may not work out. It entirely depends on the player's ability to assess the situation and the killer and wether or not they can actually time the play correctly.
Anyone can pre drop a pallet injured, greeding the pallet to force the killer to hit your .5 second dead hard is always a risk.
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@TheWheelOfCheese said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3320698#Comment_3320698
DH is not high risk. If you fail a DH play you are in exactly the same spot as if you didn't use DH at all. You didn't lose anything extra.
This might be true is dead hard was never used offensively. But it is, quite frequently.
People go out of their way to use it to body block where otherwise they would just run away injured. Hiding while injured is the safe play. Running at the killer injured in the hope of timing your button press correctly is the risk.
And using the perk offensively is part of why this perk is and will always be despised by killers.
Edit: accidentally a whole word
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This would be fun for a limited time mode for at most a week. Longer than that and a meta emerges.
It's fun until every game is blight/blight or nurse/nurse, and killers complain about 24 dead hards per match.
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This would only work as a limited time mode for maybe a week. Much longer than that and a 'meta' will emerge and make it just as, if not more stale than the core game.
2v8 sounds fun for a weekend optional mode to me. After that I guarantee it would turn into blight/blight, nurse/nurse, etc. vs. 'omg now I have to hit 24 dead hards every game'.
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@Katzengott said:
Could be me that i've been wrong for all this years.
Didn't find any evidence at all. I was so sure about it, my bad.
No worries, but that's why I wanted to have some proof.
I'm not opposed to having a way to speed up bleed out, I just want to make sure I know how to do it. I think that would be a reasonable measure when I'm stuck being 'slugged for the 4k'.
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@Blinckx said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3320120#Comment_3320120
DH and Off the record don't stack i never said they do, but BT and Adrenaline works perfectly with DH or OTR
As said allowing just one perk that save your life is not a problem, DH is not a problem, once used it the killer will know you have it and i can trick you to waste it. The problem is allowing more perks which grant an extra health or extend the duration of the endurance effect. So yeah i chase you, i know you have DH and you don't use it because you have Off the Record also, or Adrenaline that could potentially heal the deep wound and provide the sprint boost, MIx all togheter and one survivor is a tank and that's a problem, not ONE perk but several perks all togheter that provide invulnerability
You listed 4 perks and claimed they all work together. They don't, in really any combination.
BT (whether base kit or the perk) and OTR only gives you one endurance buff that is the longest, not several stacks of endurance to use. If you have OTR and BT, you get the 60 seconds of endurance from OTR and it's like you don't even have BT at all (except the timer of the haste effect, which isn't part of this discussion).
If you're deep wounded by any source, adrenaline removes the deep wound instead of making the survivor healthy. Any of the perks DH, BT, or OTR triggering before adrenaline means you're still injured and one shot. If adrenaline hits first, you can't dead hard because adrenaline makes you exhausted.
The only time this could even stack is if, in this exact order, someone: is pulled off hook, last gen pops so that adrenaline makes them healthy, and then they could use either BT or OTR to take an endurance hit. In this incredibly specific case, a survivor running all 4 of your perks could take 1 additional hit.
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@Crowman said:
The status effect isn't a problem itself.
Victor being on a survivor and survivors being chained by pinhead are all incapitated and those aren't issues.
I agree. The main difference imo is that Victor and pinheads m2 are direct player interaction, which inherently allows for counter play (I.e. you can dodge). The box isn't a player obviously, but it's generally telegraphed and can be avoided unless the killer is griefing by standing on it afk.
Eruption is one of the only two effects in the game that stuns the player with no warning or telegraph, and doesn't involve direct interaction with another player. The other is blast mine.
Blast Mine tho, is 'meme tier', because despite having a 4 second stun (longer than average) and being hard to avoid, you have to earn it, it can only be on one generator at a time, and it expires after 60 seconds.
Eruption effectively has no restrictions to when it can be used whatsoever. If Eruption was only earned on hook and was only on one generator (like pop) it would at least be more tolerable because it was rarer. Even the cooldown on Eruption is laughable because it only starts on the down, which means the perk is effectively always available.
The perk only functions with no restrictions if you only see it every so often, but once it's good enough to be meta it's instantly oppressive.
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@Blinckx said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/361322/can-we-get-rid-of-dead-hard-yet
The problem is not Dead Hard, once used once if you're a good killer you'll remember who has DH and you'll wait
Problem is DH plus Off the Record plus BT plus Adrenaline any other "extra health status" a survivor could have, that's the real issue. If you're limited to carry only one of those perks then i will be fine but, when you find a survivor who's a tank and can't die in any possibile way until you have hitted him over and over and over then we have a problem
Today is your lucky day, because none of those effects stack.
Any one of them will put you in the deep wound state, and while the survivor is wounded they can't be protected by endurance again.
So they can run all of those perks you mentioned, but at most only one of them works and the rest become useless until they go down or mend. The only reason they would be getting value out of more than one is if you're allowing them to mend by dropping chase, at which point they could just heal and get the health state back regardless of perks.
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@Alionis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3320060#Comment_3320060
Players like you are probably the reason the wiki admins insist on testing things in-game instead, if all you provide them with is a "trust me, bro, I'm experienced".
I have nearly 4k hours in the game myself and what you said just sounded wrong. I've never noticed bleeding to death take anything other than 4 minutes, whether you move around or stay still. Since you claim that moving around halves the time to 2 minutes, that should be a very noticeable thing, especially since the EGC timer has the same timings and is something we get to see relatively often.
I just went in-game to try this out for myself and even used Tenacity so I could immediately move around while recovering. It still took 4 minutes to the second for me to bleed out.
So in conclusion, there is no reason for you to be surprised that no one shares your observation, it's just not a thing. A lot of playtime does not mean you know everything.
Thank you.
I've also never noticed bleeding out twice as fast, I've never heard anyone mention it (including the wiki), and I know someone would have done a 'top 20 things the game doesn't tell you' video he could easily link to if this claim was true.
I assume any attempt I made to test was going to be met with moving the goal post by claiming I did it wrong: it actually only works if you've never recovered the entire game, you have to play Elodie but using only Sole Survivor in the third perk slot, it only works on xbox of your left stick drifts to the upper right. If he's claiming it's possible, then do it and show us how, it's entirely on them to prove this has any merit whatever.
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@CosmicParagon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3319973#Comment_3319973
Yes, but Pop was INSTANT regression that you know is doing something. Eruption requires you to kick the gen and pray nobody finishes it in the time that it takes you to down a survivor, at which point you MIGHT incapacitate a survivor, though you will more likely either hit nobody and get a pathetic 8% regression (barely more than just kicking the gen 3 times) or just have Eruption do jack squat because the gen popped as it was at 70% and the survivors just got back on the gen after you left.
You can affect every gen on the map with Eruption at once.
Not only is it 10% (not 8) instantly on down per generator, you also get the 2.5% for the kick that didn't exist before the pop nerf. If you hit even 2 gens with Eruption, that's 20% instantly on the down, and 5% from the kick.
That doesn't even factor in the extra slowdown if you incapacitate anyone at all with it.
You also seem to be completely unaware that meta is pairing Eruption with nowhere to hide and call of brine. So you can see anyone nearby who might stop regression immediately, and literally get notified if someone touches it within a minute.
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@CosmicParagon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3318759#Comment_3318759
You're forgetting a very important factor on Eruption: the fact that you need to invest an additional 30-60 seconds to find and down a survivor, during which time the survivors are on generators.
Even if we assume that 'finding and downing a survivor' is somehow not the primary objective of the killer...
Pop activates on hook. So not only does your argument still apply to pop, but you also have to find, down, carry, and hook for pop to get value.
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@Katzengott said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3319517#Comment_3319517
The timer goes quicker by half if you don't hold to recover. If you don't recover at all it's just 2 minutes.
I provided a link to my rebuttal.
Are you going to provide some kind of evidence that this is the case, or are we going with round 3 of you just stating it as true?
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@Katzengott said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3319033#Comment_3319033
You know it already takes 2 minutes slugged on the floor until you bleed out.
The timer just extends to 4 mins when you hold to recover.
It takes 240 seconds (4 minutes) to bleed out when you're in the dying state/slugged. There is currently no game mechanic, perk, or player input that changes this number in any way.
https://deadbydaylight.fandom.com/wiki/Health_States
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@sanees said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/360950/safe-unhook
developers have already tried to punish killers for camping and this has always led to abuse from the survivors
better come up with a reason not to camp / tunnel, and not a punishment for it
For the record, one anti camping measure has ever been tried. (Pausing the hook timer when the killer is to close to the hook) That was several years ago when the game was still new, and I can't even find patch notes that indicate this was even live instead of a PTB test.
While I generally agree that incentives, like the old BBQ points bonus, are better than punishment, it's not as if the devs have thoroughly exhausted every possibility for dealing with the issue.
They took one deeply flawed swing at the problem and then stopped.
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You'd have to also have killers lose collision after being idle as well.
The newest edition of these kinds of builds is basically 'Pinhead stands on the box' for an eternal chain hunt. Done in certain ways, the killer can make the game take 30+ minutes without even being at the keyboard.
This, as well as the old AFK Pig, are untouched in your proposition since the killer can just hit a survivor who has a crow and trying to get past the killer with it. AFK Pig actively defended the box of you went too close, the problem was the hat did the work for them. Same thing with the chain hunt.
The way I would implement something like this is:
* Killers now also get crows when idle, just like survivors. Killer crows don't ever give survivors noise or sound notifications across the map, but they can see the crows flapping above their head when close.
* At 1 crow the player loses collision until all crows are gone.
* At 2-3 crows, the players perks, items, add-ons, and killer power are all disabled until crows are gone. Killers can still m1, but cannot gain bloodlust. These effects last until all crows are gone.
This would also nuke insidious camping and 'pretending to be afk until I have noed' gameplay. It also turns off the chain hunt if the killer stands on the box for too long and survivors with a Pig hat have an essentially inactive hat.
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@kingcarl2012 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3319024#Comment_3319024
Not quite, slugging for the 4k would probably go down because instead of potentially having the 4th survivor get a guaranteed escape because the hatch spawns right next to them, it would create a fair strategic door battle.
I will admit that for that to be balanced door spawns would have to be adjusted with a min/max distance that would differ based on killer mobility, as an example doors for blight would be more spread than they would be for trapper, ut it would eliminate the garbage of killing the 3rd and having no chance to find the 4th.
I bave no issue with letting the slugged survivor leave, but it shouldnt affect the outcome of the match. So if they leave their body should stay slugged, and both remaining players are notified, and the match should progress to its normal conclusion, so it isnt used as a ploy to get hatch to spawn sooner.
It changes nothing because killers who slug for the 4k are doing so because it gives them up to 4 minutes where the last survivor has 0 chance of actual escape. The only play the survivor has is stealth, except in rare circumstances.
If 'fair' was the goal, hatch is random, and the killer has the advantage. The hatch already favors the killer because of faster movement speed, and the survivor has to traverse the map without being seen. That simply is not enough for an incredible number of killer players, which is why slugging for the 4k is so commonplace.
Killers don't want 'fair' chance at the door or the hatch and ANY chance at escape with two survivors left is too much.
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@kingcarl2012 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3318854#Comment_3318854
If when it got to the final survivor the doors were powered like what happens when hatch gets closed, they still have a chance to escape.
This is the exact same problem as the current hatch, since that's what happens when the hatch is closed.
Killers will continue to slug for the 4k to prevent the hatch or doors, so nothing will change.
I'd much rather allow the slugged survivor to give up on the ground. Give the killer hook stages, kill credit, whatever. That would be better than what we have now, and not nearly as game breaking as infinite unbreakable base kit like the devs were testing.
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@kingcarl2012 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3318814#Comment_3318814
Not really, hatch is there to give the last survivor an undeserved higher chance of escaping. if it was just about making sure the game ends, then once it was down to the final survivor the doors would be powered and EGC would start instantly.
Hatch exists because the game only functions correctly if survivors have hope of escaping.
Without hope, some survivors would probably do stupid things like give up or disconnect until they just stop playing the game.
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@Sonzaishinai said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3318667#Comment_3318667
Old Pop was 20% of 80 second gens for a total of 16 seconds saved
Eruption does 10% of 90 seconds gens for a total of 9 seconds saved, on top of 25 seconds that the survivor can't work on gens and the gen will be regressing for a total of 6.25 seconds
All together for about 40 seconds saved. And that is if eruption hits 1 survivor, it just gets better if it hits more
People who think old pop is less oppresive then eruption are not out of their mind. They are just better at math
To add to this, Pop only activates on hook, is active for only 45 seconds, and can only be applied to one generator. And this was the meta gen kick perk before 6.1.
Eruption can be applied to every gen on the map at once, works even if the gen regresses to 0%, and is effectively always active. The 30s cooldown does literally nothing to restrict the perk's use since it starts when the survivor is downed.
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@Mockingjay_S451 said:
Honestly, just here to say there is no point trying to have a reasonable conversation with WesCravenFan. I’ve learned there is no point and it is a waste of time. Life is too short.
The best improvement to my forums experience is the ignore feature.
If anyone is unaware, you can go to your own 'edit profile' and manually add users to an ignore list to never see their messages on here. Doing it through your own profile works even if they have set theirs to 'private'.
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Having the BP bonus base kit is one of the rare circumstances where most survivors and killers agree it would be beneficial to have in the game.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3318185#Comment_3318185
Let's do a little thought experiment. Let's say there was a perk that allowed a survivor to instantly put 30s of progress into a gen but only if they didn't perform any healing actions, work on a gen or were in chase. That perk would be completely useless then, right? It doesn't improve your efficiency but it will keep you locked in a place for a shorter amount of time, decreasing the potential time the killer has to put pressure on you. There comes the issue with Prove Thyself. It allows survivors to speed up a gen and therefore be free to go after achieving something the killer cannot take away. This also why camping is a viable strategy and doesn't equate to a loss when done correctly. You may not progress faster overall but you achieve something irreversible that will put you in a better spot.
DBD is pretty much a time management simulator for both sides. Meaning you don't need to make every action faster but just reach the next checkpoint in a more efficient manner. This is exactly what Prove Thyself does. A gen the killer could otherwise defend and contest will be done before they can even reach it.
I 100% agree that Prove Thyself when used incorrect will not be a big help. But it makes every second the killer loses for traversing the map, not being in chase, not effectively progressing their own objective hurt much more.
I mean, I posted numbers and evidence that PT isn't as 'crazy omg #########' overpowered as some people seem to believe, and also agree and posted constructive feedback about changes for both Hyperfocus and BNP. But the problem isn't PT.
I see what you're saying about smaller time on a gen, but time is the killer's primary resource. The primary resource of survivors is the players, since they have the numbers advantage, and grouping up for early gens is simply giving up that advantage when it's the strongest. That's why eliminating a survivor is so strong for killer, and wasting the killer's time via chase, perks, saves, distraction, etc. is so strong for survivors.
The most 'gen efficient' teams always spread out. Always. Even (especially) in the competitive scene, (where players love to point and shout that 'camping/tunneling is the only way to win') survivors are spread out on gens to maximize efficiency. Locking in a gen is good, but pressuring multiple gens is better. And that principle can still be true with only 3 gens left on the map, when PT is arguably the strongest. (And for the record, being down to one gen left is also when Hyperfocus, BNP, and your "thought experiment magical perk" are also strongest, especially in a 3-gen scenario).
Prove Thyself is a placebo that killers claim is losing them games, when in actuality it really isn't. The reality is that most killers are bad at applying map pressure for various reasons. Some maps are too big, there are too many resources for survivors on this map, these survivors are annoying, and some killers don't even try beyond equipping meta perks. (These reasons should sound very familiar.) In fact, killers who camp and tunnel at 5 gens are generally so fixated on the idea that "3 survivors is a nearly guaranteed win" that they don't even consider that doing so expends their time with relatively minimal impact on gen progress elsewhere. Instead they throw up their hands in disgust over "genrushing", as if the survivors are supposed to stand afk until the killer is ready to deal with them.
Camping/tunneling strats are maximum pressure on one or two survivors, and minimum pressure on the other two. The two left completely alone are best off "just doing gens" separately until the last one, regardless of perks or items.