AmpersandUnderscore
AmpersandUnderscore
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I used Repressed Alliance several times yesterday without any problems. Though I wasn't using blast mine or wire tap in that build. So I can only confirm that it functions on it's own.
Last time I tried to use blast mine and repressed together, they both triggered on a single button press like your wire tap and blast mine do in the video. That was months ago.
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Survivor meta won't change significantly until core gameplay changes are made. That may never happen, tbf, but there are limited options for survivors in some scenarios.
For example, in any game, at any time you could be tunneled off hook. If you want to have a chance at avoiding that, your options effectively are: off the record, decisive strike, renewal, or hoping that your teammates brings bt. OTR is the most versatile of these, and isn't hard countered by either a laughable 2s head start (ds), or the killer being able to count to 10 (renewal and base endurance off hook).
Similar argument applies for exhaustion perks, except you're guaranteed to be in chase at some point.
The biggest problem on the survivor side is items. There's too much speed increase associated with toolboxes and medkits specifically. Imo, they should significantly increase the charges, but cap the speed increase to no more than like 10%. BNP needs a rework, and I liked the idea that instead of granting progress, it could be consumed to instead lock in a gen's progress. So that gen couldn't regress below a set value like 40% or something.
Honestly gen speeds need a cap for both repair and regression rates. That would normalize game speeds and add perk variety at a minimum. And it would discourage 'quad slowdown', which is also unhealthy for the game.
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I expect they'll make some kind of change in the next mid chapter patch.
Even if their primary metrics are only kill rate and perk pick rate, eruption has certainly moved up in pick rate since it got buffed, and I have a hard time believing the kill rate is unaffected across the board because of it.
The kicker (ha) tho, is that BHVR was trying to reduce match durations for shorter games. That was partially why they tested the 'finished Mori' thing. But these gen kicking slogs can last 25-30 minutes or longer in some cases. That alone might be enough tbh.
And I'm sure they're at least aware of the feedback on this.
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@StarLost said:
Uh...okay, hold my coffee.
- OoO
- Boil Over
- Dead Hard
- Aura reading perks while they were bugged
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3301793#Comment_3301793
Yup.
It was 150x worse.
On some maps, you'd be literally unhookable. And people would run No Mither, allowing them to essentially take the game hostage, or force the killer to waste ages slug camping.
Eruption is annoying, but it has counterplay.
So you're saying that by bringing one particular perk, combining that with one or two other synergy perks, and picking a specific area of the map to abuse, that you can completely deny the other team ever being able to complete their primary objective?
Wow, that sounds annoying. Good thing they nerfed both boil over and eruption within a week of those buffs going live.
What's that? Eruption hasn't been nerfed yet and still does that on live? Huh.
But hey, that single week of overtuned boil over sure sucked, amirite?
Edit: autocorrect.
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I'm hesitant to say the perk is "the most busted ever" because there have historically been some really obvious candidates on both sides. But at least those perks led to an end of the game. Killers would still play for hooks/kills and survivors would use their perks to survive chases, finish gens, and escape.
Unfortunately, current eruption has popularized a strategy of just kicking every gen as often as possible, even if it means dropping chase at 5 gens to do so. Downs and hooks are, at best, a side objective, and even then only if the survivors exhaust their resources or screw up. And it's not like Eruption is even an interaction between players, it just randomly disables the player while the killer is in a different time zone.
But hopefully BHVR has listened to feedback on this and will make some changes. They removed the hatch standoff, and they recently removed the locker save/blinds that could also be abused to create extremely frustrating losing scenarios. I'm hoping they do the same with Eruption in the midchapter.
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Toolboxes and medkits (and their add-ons) shouldn't have ludicrous speed bonuses. It should be, at most, about 8-10% speed increase, but with significantly more charges. I like the 'lock in' gen progress idea, which would be a better use for BNP than the current design.
Hard disagree with hexes though. You're basically giving infinite undying base kit with no other changes (actually, pretty sure undying used to work like this and was changed for good reason). Having to break devour hope 5 times, for one perk slot, would be beyond broken. Unless you're saying that hexes also only apply to a 24m radius of the hex totem, and are no longer map wide. Then... maybe slightly better, but hexes become even more useless.
If I were to do anything with hexes, it would be that booning over a hex only disables the hex until the boon is snuffed, but the hex can't be moved. That at least gives some counter play where survivors can choose to boon over a hex if the totem is in a good spot, but if it gets snuffed, the hex comes back. Breaking that totem gets rid of the hex permanently, but they lose it as a potential boon spot. There's some decision making there and counter play that doesn't exist right now. You just boon over it every time for a few extra seconds spent.
I can't even think of a good use of green keys to rework them, at least not that keeps in the spirit of how the other keys work. Literally a worthless item.
The idea of map offerings taking you to a specific realm is fine, imo, but their overuse is a problem. You could make it so that any time a map offering is successful, a random player on the team that didn't use that offering gets a sacrificial ward at the end of the trial. So if a survivor's offering is successful, the killer gets a sac ward so their next match is randomized instead. If the killer offering is picked, a random survivor gets one at the end. At most, only one ward can be given out per game, and it isn't given out at all if survivors and the killer both choose the same realm.
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@notclaudette said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3300154#Comment_3300154
dbd is really only a horror game in name only, as the actual gameplay represents a more aggressive and forceful design. Only baby survivors hide in lockers and play for stealth, while experienced survivors will run in a circle and occasionally press space for 5 gens.
i dont really remember laurie strode walking around a rock for 2 minutes and dropping a pallet when michael got too close. The argument of "its fine because its like in the movies" is a flimsy one at best due to the large variance in mediums. You cant properly compare a videogame with horror elements to a picture film designed specifically to scare.
I'm just sick of playing out a game to near completion, 3 dead and 1 left, for the one to just happen to get lucky with hatch spawn and escape.
(on rereading i think i came across as condescending to loopers, which was unintentional! looping is the only skill expressive surv gameplay)
Is say it's more accurate to say that baby survivors default to stealth for survival. Stealth is a tool that always has it's uses, and even the most experienced survivors aren't announcing their presence to the killer while setting up a flashlight save, for example.
Hiding can often still be the correct play, it's just that survivors do it tactically instead of out of fear as they gain experience.
I never said 'it's fine if it's like the movies,' you're reading way too much into what I said. I mention the sole survivor as being thematically appropriate for the genre, that's it. You also didn't seem to catch that I also said the entire game is based on survivors having a hope of escape, and the hatch is basically one of the last things to strive for at the end of a losing game.
It's super bizarre tho that you use Laurie strode as the example here. She is the primary example of using improvised weapons, whatever is at hand, to try and fend off the killer. The perk decisive strike is a literal homage to that moment, and it would be entirely accurate for her to drop a pallet on the killer if it was the only thing available.
If you want to nit pick this point, it wouldn't make sense for the resident evil survivors to have guns in DBD, simply because they're armed in the source games. There are a lot of empty holsters in DBD for a reason.
Personally, I think you're too hung up on 'the one that got away'. A 3k is a solid killer win. If you don't agree, then slug for the 4k like everyone else does. Killers can already choose to essentially completely prevent hatch from spawning, right now, base kit.
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You should try a few different builds for a few matches and see if anything feels better. Trapper in particular has some weaknesses early game with set up time, and I saw someone mention corrupt intervention to help with that.
You also mentioned long chases. This can happen as a 'basic m1' killer depending on the map and rng, but you can also try chase perks that might help. Bamboozle, blood favor, or even the enduring/spirit fury combo can help with different aspects of chases. Even info perks like I'm all ears can cut down on mind games in certain situations.
I'm also not sure how you're playing trapper exactly, but I do recommend keeping at least one trap in your hand to use in chases. Even if you only 'fake' placing it at a pallet of window, it can get survivors to move on to a potentially weaker area of the map.
Basement is also your friend, though burning a basement offering usually shows your hand to survivors. At least being aware of it's location in case you get an opportunity is always good.
I do ok with trapper, but I play him very little right now. Some games though, if I find a clearly good survivor, I'll chase them for practice. It's not going to win me that match, and I recognize that, but I've gotten better at chasing in general by doing that occasionally. I've also found that the occasional 'practice game' keeps me from tilting as much too, cause I'm consciously practicing and not sweating as hard to outright win the whole match.
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@H2H said:
IIRC, the scream was added back in because if it paired with merciless storm, you’d get those rapid-fire skillchecks for way too long. So now they just force it to interrupt you with a scream.
This is why they added the scream back in, but I still think it was a stupid change. Merciless needed/needs a cap on the total time or number of checks.
You can still get 'way too long' merciless storm checks with Jolt for the exact same reason. And there will likely be future perks that have the same interaction. They just added one that can with Vittorio if you're feeling masochistic.
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There was a tome challenge earlier this year to 'escape using the perk no mither and no other perks'. For a couple weeks, people were trying to do the challenge and changing their in game name to plzchallenge or whatever to get it through sympathy, cause it sucked to complete. Several games I played I let people go so they could get it done.
Then I had a game with a no mither Meg with a similar kind of name. I went easy on her, even left her slugged at one point so she could get value, and ultimately let her go. The end game screen she had 3 other perks like Prove that I couldn't have seen, but she clearly wasn't doing the challenge. She was just escaping because that strategy worked, and I stopped going easy on no mither players.
Same thing with your outbreak breakout. Just changing your name and asking for an escape shouldn't work. Because if it did, people would absolutely abuse it. Tons of people would just burn an RPD offering with a username referencing the achievement, even if they already had it done, just to get the free escape and an easy game.
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@ByeByeQ said:
If the Trapper starts with all of his traps than he can just post up on a 3 gen right from the start of the match without ever having to leave.
This was probably what stopped them from giving him all his traps in the first place and would be even worse with the current gen kicking meta.
Don't ever expect BHVR to elevate Trapper. He doesn't sell DLC.
I'm pretty sure BHVR has said they don't want him to have all his traps base kit for this very reason.
Not to mention you could just giga trap a hook without needing to think about it. You could always move those traps later, but still have it be basically impossible to unhook.
There are other buffs you could do that would help, but not be widely abusable. For example, I'm convinced the add-on that darkens traps should instead 'make them more transparent' by a certain amount. It would at least be usable on, say, Eyrie where traps are blinding obvious.
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@AssortedSorting said:
Some people like hide and seek in their horror game.
Some people also like a mechanic that isn’t just about patrolling Auras in the Killers favor.
While it should be balanced competitively (for a quality experience), Trial gameplay loops shouldn’t be designed around competing “for the win”. It should try to stick to horror, and part of that is the final survivor still having a chance, so there is tension on the outcome, rather than just doubling down on a 4K.
Yes. This exactly.
The whole game only functions because survivors have hope that they can escape. Take that away and, well, that's a good way to get even more people to disconnect.
And from a horror genre perspective, nearly every horror movie ends with the final girl/sole survivor barely escaping death even though the rest of the group died.
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It's not on the survivor to offer themselves as a sacrifice, ever. The killer just needs to hook and go next.
Most people are hung up on the 'survivor not trying to escape', but does it change anything if the survivor is on a gen just missing every skill check until the killer leaves? No, it doesn't.
Besides, if it's 'help him get the achievement', fine. I'll start feeding myself to every tombstone Myers, but only after every killer stops slugging for the 4k. Apparently it's on the killers to offer me the Left Behind achievement, just in case I don't have it yet.
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@StarLost said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/358496/solo-queue-is-so-bad-right-now
Yeah.
But, a few things.
- DCs, AFKs and suicides are their own problem, and should be penalized a lot more strongly than they are. I'm also convinced this is heavily throwing off kill rates.
- This does not seem to correspond to what killer I'm playing, what perks I'm running and happens just as much with streamers/flans than not. All that matters is 'we might lose this'.
- It's almost impossible to balance Solo versus Killer and SWF versus Killer. Yes, a few more communication tools wouldn't go amiss, but they would inevitably used to be toxic, and it wouldn't prevent the aforementioned AFkers and quitters.
It's absolutely throwing off kill rates. BHVR have said multiple times that they don't count games with a DC when calculating kill rates. So those games where no one survives because it's 1v3 at 5 gens aren't being added to the kill counts. But to the players, it's still a win for the killer and usually a hopeless loss for the survivors.
At least in my survivor experience, I get far more DC's in my games than suicides on hook. Genuine AFK from the start seems pretty rare.
I'm convinced that a lot of these disconnects are a symptom of the effectiveness and efficiency of tunneling, which BHVR really needs to address. Having the first person focused out of the game is a common strategy, but it also means that survivor is probably getting basically zero reward/BP for that game anyway.
If players are first downed (also applies to 'unfun' killers), it can feel like the only options are either:
* play out the match, spend five or more minutes, and get maybe 6k BP for it.
* Disconnect, get 0 BP, but wait out a 1 minute timer to get instantly into another lobby.
I still think DC is a ######### reaction, and those players need to take a break instead. But barring individual reactions, the only thing BHVR has any control over is the game balance. Again, I think it's a symptom of game balance if your players commonly start to believe that the only winning move is not to play.
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Imagine if survivors had a perk that worked the same way eruption does.
After healing any survivor one health state or unhooking a survivor the perk activates.(actively interacting with the other team's objective to regress progress, in ways that are infinitely repeatable).
With the perk active, after working on a generator for 10 seconds, you can use the active ability button to stun the killer for 6 seconds, wherever they are. (Progressing your team's objective allows you to remotely disable your opponent with essentially no warning, for far longer than any other perk.)
But hey, it's got a 30 second cooldown.
Yeah, I'm sure this would be perfectly healthy for the game. (/s)
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Pretty sure this is the server resolving high latency, either the killer's, the survivor's, or both. I think what happens is on the killer's screen they see and register a hit, and the server says "yep, that's a down." Then the survivor's side says "ok, I'm down... btw this is my location on my screen here," and the server updates it.
If I'm the survivor, I can sometimes tell this is happening because I got downed by a killer that, on my screen, was nowhere close enough to hit me. Then the killer looks around on the ground for a few seconds to try and find me. I assume that's me "jumping around" on their end, even though on my screen my body hasn't moved at all.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3294813#Comment_3294813
Too be fair the Inner Healing bug was in the game for some time before they killed switched it.
Inner healing had two rounds of bugs. When the knight launched, any survivor breaking a totem would give anyone running IH a charge. Obviously not intended, but the number of totems still limited the number of uses overall. That was the version that was around for a week or two.
Then they patched and broke it so IH had unlimited uses. That was killswitched within a couple hours of the patch going live.
Let's not pretend it was 'omg infinite free inner healing for weeks'.
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I could be mistaken, but I think that's an indicator of a breakable object you can send your guard to deal with for you. Kind of a 'soft lock on' so you could quickly drop a guard and know what he'll do.
I could be wrong though, I don't yet have the dlc myself, so this is just based on what I've seen of knight play.
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I've noticed this recently too. I can go through several blood webs before I find a med kit, for example.
Something definitely seems off, maybe bugged about the current RNG.
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Exactly, the unhealthy part of the perk should be looked at.
And I didn't word it well, but the "remove Eruption if regression hits zero" would be in addition to any of the other changes to the perk. I focus on that because once a gen hits zero it's impossible to even tell a "fully regressed gen" from "gen that has never had progress". So getting hit with the incapacitation when just starting a fresh gen is extra annoying.
Yeah the numbers are a bit weird to tweak there, and I didn't run any numbers beforehand. But you're right, the debuff would have to be like 100% slower speeds or much longer, which could still be annoying. But if it's instead only debuffing gen repair speed, you could choose to wait it out doing something else more productive potentially. Running rough numbers, you get 25s incapacitated time and about 7% regression during that window as is right now, so it's about 40.3 seconds to break even to before the eruption hit, if you start working on it immediately as incap ends.
With just a gen speed debuff tho, you'd have to buff the initial hit to account for no regression window, so 17%ish off the top. If you do 100% slower gen speed you break even at the end of about 30.6 seconds. So even 100% slower speed isn't quite enough to keep the numbers the same. But still might be an option, since it actively encourages the survivor to do anything else other than that gen.
And yeah, I think Blast Mine is actually balanced pretty well, even if the reasons Blast Mine are "fair" aren't exactly translatable to Eruption.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3289497#Comment_3289497
I see what you mean by your criteria then.
So by that criteria what type of change would you be asking for as an example then?
Sorry for being sarcastic, I was just seeing a miscommunication and being frustrated by that.
First thing I would do is disable Eruption on any gen that regresses to zero.
I've seen a couple ideas that might work to varying degrees. The simplest would be to have the eruption effect "explode" 1 second or so after a survivor is downed. So, similar to pain resonance, there's an opportunity to avoid it. Unfortunately, this might destroy Eruption as a perk without greatly increasing the "chunk" of progress it takes from the gen. It also loses some identity, since it's basically just Jolt with extra steps and larger range. Not a perfect option, but solves the problems I have with it for the most part.
One other idea I saw, which doesn't exactly resolve the issue I have fully, but might work without destroying Eruption as a perk, is to debuff an affected survivor with some new debuff. So "Erupted" debuff makes them perform *most* general things like gen repair, cleansing/booning, healing, etc. at like 50% speed for whatever time period. That way they can still play the game, even if slowly, and this could be tuned numbers-wise to give Eruption the same amount of gen progress "lost", even if the survivor continues working on it. It would preserve the perk usefulness and uniqueness, and survivors can technically still perform actions, but I'm still not 100% sure I like this option personally.
The third way would be to make eruption more telegraphed. So if an Erupted gen had something like the cylinders puffing out smoke constantly you'd at least know that gen was cursed while working on it. The exact visual indicator is up in the air, and could be something as simple as a gear sitting on top of the gen while the perk is active.
And to be fair, there is one other perk I forgot to list, which is Blast Mine. Blast Mine also doesn't involve player interaction or telegraphs, and can stun the killer. Though Blast Mine seems fairer because it's earned, has one charge, and expires in 60 seconds. You can also just kick the gen immediately after recovering, so you lose a couple seconds total. So possibly if Eruption earned tokens on a down that got spent when kicking a single gen it would be far weaker, but you wouldn't have the threat of every single gen being affected. Again, doesn't exactly solve the problems entirely, but having it be "earned" and far rarer to encounter might be another way to reduce how oppressive it feels.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3289481#Comment_3289481
No need to get sarcastic I literally just asked for clarity on your point.
"And the example is there solely to reiterate how OP this effect is. If the "survivor version" is OP, then so is eruption, by your own admission."
No, you didn't read what I typed correctly. Your example was an illustration of lack of counter play, not to the degree of how powerful the effect was. Also no, that isn't an equal comparison at all. Stop strawmaning. The effect you listed and Eruption are completely different things.
I'm trying to stay on topic here but you're being hyperbolic and misdirecting from the point of the conversation.
There are literally tons of things in the game without counter play that lack interaction. If you agree that everything should have counter play then why wouldn't you just say okay I agree with your post that everything should have counter play? I feel like you're trying to be combative when we're overall in agreement on counter play.
You still aren't understanding my point. Things that *remove a player from normal gameplay* that have no interaction or telegraph:
- Eruption.
Please add to the list.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3289458#Comment_3289458
So is your argument then that everything needs counter play? If that's the case then I'm fine with adding counter play to the perk, just understand that as I mentioned you're talking about needing to now add counter play to a TON of things in the game that already exist without counter play. If adding adding counterplay to Eruption means were adding counter play to everything else I'll take that trade. I just want standards were applying here to be applied evenly across the board.
I think you're example is pretty bad though. You're example isn't bad because there's no counter play as you're trying to make an example with, it's bad because the effect is OP. Those are two very different things.
I think I stated it pretty clearly: if you're going to remove the ability for a player to play the game, it should involve some kind of counter play. Most things in the game already do this because they involve interacting with another player: hooks, pallet and flashlight stuns, victor pouncing you, as examples.
There are some other things that can remove you from play that aren't directly interactable, usually things like killer powers. So Pinheads chain hunt, trapper traps, and pig reverse bear traps aren't directly interacting with a player, but these also have counter play and/or telegraphs. Even things like oppression don't trigger until you hit a skill check, which by default has a notification sound.
Incapacitated is inflicted by Pinheads chain hunt, victor pounce, and eruption. Eruption is the exception to this currently, where a player can be removed from normal gameplay without interacting with the killer or killer's power at all, and without a way to play around that.
Eruption is the outlier and the problem currently. And the example is there solely to reiterate how OP this effect is. If the "survivor version" is OP, then so is eruption, by your own admission.
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@Blueberry said:
I can see people’s argument of no counter play, however does everything need counter play? There are literally tons of things in this game that doesn’t have counter play. Instead of counter play things can have downsides or skill requirements. For example, current DH has no counter play as they can activate in your weapon lunge time which is why you can see killers literally wait out 10+ seconds on the survivors back and they still get it off timed correctly. Did this require a lot of skill in the timing from the survivor? Yes it did, but there wasn’t actually counter play from the killer there. The killer is just hoping for the survivor to mess up and use it early. Does Empathy need counter play? No, it doesn’t. It’s just an okay effect that isn’t too strong to warrant a counterplay. Eruption has the downside of having to waste time kicking all the gems you want it to effect, risking the chance of that being wasted time if the gem gets completed before you down someone AND requiring you to play well enough to down someone in the first place, ie doing nothing if you aren’t good. So my point is does everything need counter play? If your answer is yes then we have a TON of redesigning across the board to do, not just with Eruption. I’d argue not everything needs counter play. Some things can just have risks or downsides instead.
Remotely incapacitating a player via eruption isn't even interaction with the killer, it's just a 26 second stun, essentially randomly, even if you know for a fact the gen is affected by it. The only counter-play is "don't do that gen" which isn't always possible, especially if you're trying to avoid (or already in) a 3-gen scenario.
From a game development standpoint, the devs really need to think hard about including these kinds of non-interactive elements, especially when the stun lasts so long. If anything in the game needs counter-play, this is the kind of perk that should have it.
Or maybe I'm looking at it wrong and survivors should just have an identical perk: After healing any survivor for one health state (taking time to regress the killer's objective) the perk activates. Once you work on a gen for at least 8 seconds (doing your objective, in a way that can be done indefinitely), the killer (wherever they are) is stunned for 6.5 seconds and the perk deactivates. That sounds stupid and oppressive to me, but that would be the equivalent of current eruption.
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BHVR has already said that the pallet spawn on the new map is bugged and it shouldn't spawn as many pallets as it is. They've reduced the chance of that map in rotation by a lot until they can patch it in the next week.
So I guess by your argument we should expect 'bug fixes' to nurse as well. I look forward to that.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3273421#Comment_3273421
Currently that happens to be mostly gen slow down because most of the information or chase perks that exist quite frankly aren't good enough to save you as much time in chase or search as you would save just throwing another slow down on. Meaning we should be buffing most the chase/information perks to be on par.
What chase perks do killer have that are relevant? Enduring spirit fury is too slow. PWYF has cooldown for gaining stacks and 3 stack limit. Coup the grace is too safe of chasing perk. Fire-up action speed is 4%, too small numbers for non-existent benefit. Most of instant down non-hex perks are highly conditional. Hubris is newest perk and it has 20 second of exposed.... Dragon grip has too long of cooldown. Make your choice becomes too obvious to be consistent. Trail of torment grants undetectable, but shows aura of the generator, defeating the purpose of the perk. Hysteria grants 30 seconds of oblivious but only on healthy to injured survivors, not every hit. Deathbound is another meme-tier oblivious perk.
Most of the misc-type perks are just not very good. dev are too safe with all the killer perks. Too scared of Merciless storm becoming too strong.
I agree there are a number of lackluster chase perks, but there are good ones as well. STBFL, lethal pursuer, bamboozle, superior anatomy, I'm all ears, and blood favor are anywhere from decent to great in just about any match. All focused on shortening chases, or getting into chase quickly.
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@Brimp said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3274858#Comment_3274858
Yeah but why would either be bannable offenses? So I don't get the point you're trying to make because there will always be a way to be unsportsmanlike in games and people need to accept that and not cry "ban for them doing this".
I never said they should be bannable or reportable. It's a design issue for BHVR to fix.
I only flipped the wording you used because many of the people who post on this board love to cry about survivors teabagging, but can't see the flip side when killers also act like jerks. I think both of these examples are crappy and should be looked at by BHVR for game mechanics solutions.
While I think the infinite unbreakable PTB experiment was/is a terrible idea, at least it was the devs attempting to address the issue with game design. That's a good thing, even if their first shot at it was a miss.
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@Brimp said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3274184#Comment_3274184
But slugging isn't holding the game hostage. You agreed to play the game in how it is from the EULA which means you agree to the fact that you might spend 4 on the floor with the only option being to crawl around.
Teabagging at the exit gates also isn't holding the game hostage. You agreed to play the game in how it is from the EULA which means you agree to the fact that you might spend part of the end game collapse waiting for survivors to leave with your only options to hit them out or wait less than 2 minutes.
It's almost like the "bannable offences" and the EULA don't cover what is generally considered crappy or unsportsmanlike behavior.
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The game is long overdue for caps to effect stacking. There is literally zero reason not to have some limit to modifiers in the game.
Gen speed and regression both should have caps to limit how fast or slow they go.
Healing speeds should also be capped, and basically every item in the game should have at least double or triple the charges, but provide no more than 10% bonus to speed. None of this '100% base increase' crap that's impossible to balance. A survivor shouldn't ever be able to self heal in 6 seconds, I don't care what perks or med kit they have.
Not having a cap at all, or even diminishing returns, leads to what we have now: killers run quad slowdown and the only counter is to run toolboxes and gen speed perks. And killers run quad slowdown because they feel they have to. It's an arms race, where if one side doesn't bring 100%, gens either fly, or are impossible to complete, depending on who 'went easy' that game.
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@Plu said:
If you got into a 3 gen situation, it's pretty much your fault and / or your team's fault.
I know it sucks when it happens but that's just how the game is, 3 gen has always been a strategy for killers and after so many years i'm baffled that survivors still let it happen to them.
Eh, yes and no. In general I agree it's on the survivors to avoid a 3 gen situation, and the killer has an easy patrol if that happens.
But there's a 'play style' since the gen kicking meta where killers will pick a 3 gen at the start of the match and camp it relentlessly. With Jolt, eruption, and Brine, they won't chase, ever. Just enough to get you to let go so they can kick the gen and move on. If you stay near the gens, you go down and they lose progress.
It's the most boring af way to play the game, but it's a war of attrition and eventually they'll either bleed you out or hook you to death. Seems like it's popular with doctor and legion specifically. I don't consider that to be a failure or fault of survivors.
For the record, it's not impossible to win, but it does take coordination that solo q often lacks.
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There's literally no way to make a functional MMR system for an asymmetrical game.
Let's say you could, somehow, perfectly capture player skill in a rating number where 0 is the worst player and 100 is the best.
The most challenging game for a 100 rated killer is to go up against four 100 rated survivors. They'll put the most pressure and push what that killer can do.
However, the most challenging game for a 100 rated survivor is to match with a 100 rated killer and three 0 rated teammates. If that 100 rated survivor can still escape, that's a tough game.
The problem is, these can't be the same match.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3244078#Comment_3244078
Gen regression isn't a cure-all.
It's not, but there's perks for regression, blocking a gen completely, remotely taking chunks of gen progress, and all of these varieties are currently meta.
We also have zero indication of how the op is playing. An astounding number of players saying 'gen speeds are too fast' are just struggling to put out map pressure. He could be playing a perkless, addonless trapper who doesn't enter chase until every trap is placed and set on the map for all we know.
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@WesCravenFan said:
The very things people whine about Eruption for is exactly what it is meant to do.
By that logic, they should make head on cause the killer to be stunned for an extra 5 seconds longer than base pallet stuns.
Just because a perk is designed to do something, doesn't mean that the numbers are balanced. This game suffers way too much from balance decisions that are just 'double it' or 'cut it in half'. That mentality is why perks like ruin get dumpstered, and also why eruption is overtuned now with more than double the previous duration.
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@Lost_Boy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3259457#Comment_3259457
Yeah just one of the many double standards you encounter in the game with survivors.
You get called all the names under the sun for slugging for a 4k, yet survivors will literally swarm the hook to get the 4 escape, even though they've already won the game with 3 players escaping.
One of my favourites is when a unhooked survivor intentionally body blocks you from chasing the unhooker with the endurance buff and then proceeds to call you a camping tunneler because you down them again. It's like you basically had the chance to get away, yet you actively forced the killer to chase you again.
Or maybe, and I'm just spitballing here, killers should be pressuring gens. Going back to hook is literally going to the only place you know, for certain, that two survivors are already busy doing anything but gens.
Most killers seem to just hook someone, walk to the nearest gen, and unless a survivor is in plain view, go immediately back to hook, if they leave at all. There's no gen pressure there whatsoever. Then they seem astonished that the other two survivors have done nothing but gens without ever seeing the killer.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3259383#Comment_3259383
The problem was that people were comparing old Thana, with 80s gens and 20% slowdown, to new 90s gens with 22% slowdown. On their own either the gen time or the thana buff were less than negligible, but together it produced numbers that were just big enough to induce a psychological effect that this was far too oppressive. If survivors weren't already reeling from- and adapting to the 90s gen times, it probably wouldn't have been an issue. As we now know, with the 90s gens having settled into the game, gens are still going too fast. 50 extra seconds isn't that much of a difference against any kind of repair speed perks or toolboxes, and the biggest factor isn't the flat repair speed, it's the lack of secondary objectives and being able to pressure survivors. Simply increasing gen times does nothing, it's still possible for a well coordinated team to knock them out in no time, while uncoordinated solos struggle, and it just makes repairing the gens more boring.
Deadlock isn't quite the same thing though. A flat 22% slowdown is a flat 22% slowdown, you know what you're getting. Deadlocks conditions mean it's very hit or miss, you only need survivors working on either more than two gens at a time, or exactly one gen at a time, and there's a possibility it does almost nothing. I know there was one example from Otz, where two gens still popped in quick succession, because they had three going at once, and there were two Deadlocked gens at the same time, and all gens were still completed in record time. The only Deadlock that had an impact was the last one, so it gained him 30s of slowdown.
For that two weeks or so when Thana was untouched after the patch, it was the most frustrating time playing dbd. Not because of just Thana, but every killer running quad slowdown every single game. Thana was everywhere suddenly, and that was the problem.
Thana+pentimento had gen times at roughly 165 seconds. One Jolt on that gen removed 25 seconds of progress. It was stupid. And anyone advocating to revert this perk absolutely didn't touch a gen playing survivor during that time.
The Thana change is one of the few times the devs have actually reworked something to where killers might possibly have to reconsider tunneling someone out of the game as fast as possible. Because one less survivor basically means your perk stops working. We absolutely need more changes like this, not less.
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If you see the killer dodge your lobby, leave that lobby and requeue. The matchmaker basically turns itself off in 'emergency' mode to fill that vacant slot as fast as possible. So a killer dodging the lobby means that group of survivors is probably going to get a killer way outside their pay grade.
Or you could pull the last second swap to your high prestige character if you have a nearby level 5 or so.
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@Droneinthrwind said:
The most frustrating thing is - you die a lot your mmr tanks and you get worse teammates. OK.
WHY THE HELL ARE WE STILL PLAYING AGAINTS GOD NURSES WHEN!?!?!?!?!!?
Shouldn't killer mmr also be lower?? Why am I in team with baby megs againts 4000h blight main? Hello?
Is it because all the experienced survivors left from frustration and only babies left to play your game bhvr?
Do you see no problem in bloodpoint initiative always being 100% survivor sided?
Maybe throw some bone to the soloQ because we are getting slaughtered out where in a fog and don't really want to boot the game and spend money on it. Haven't bought a single skin this year so far because soloQ is still abandoned and only got way worse after a killer buff which they totally needed it. Let's push those win rates to 80%, when this forum will be happy.
You get killers way outside your pay grade because of the matchmaker.
So, if you're in a lobby already and someone drops out of that lobby, the matchmaking system basically ignores mmr to fill that slot as soon as possible, with whoever is next on deck.
If it's a survivor slot, you may not notice as much unless you get a brand new survivor. But... If your killer dodges the lobby for whatever reason, it just grabs the next killer in queue. So you get that sweaty nurse/blight with full meta everything who completely nukes your solo q squad, because they're expecting a full SWF.
The devs have basically confirmed this is how the matchmaker behaves. If you ever see the killer dodge the lobby, drop and requeue.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3253365#Comment_3253365
If it's not your place to tell us how to play, then why did we have a PTB that heavily nerfed slugging, and put killers in lose/lose situations when they are forced to slug? In addition, BHVR even buffed some of the survivor perk interactions, to make it even easier for killers to be punished when they are forced to slug.
The following are reasons why I'm forced to slug, where I literally can't get the survivor to a hook, that basekit unbreakable would punish me for:
1) Hook deadzones: which are sometimes there at the start of the game, or it can be created by a sacrificed survivor, a survivor currently on a hook, breakdown, or sabotage.
2) Artificial hook deadzones: which are created by a combination of boil over, flip flop, or bodyblocking survivors. Sometimes I can't pick up a survivor right away because of teammates, and by the time I can pick up the survivor, they have too much flip flop progress to hook.
3) Flashlights or toolboxes: sometimes I'm out in the open, and a survivor is in the area, and I need to leave the slugged survivor to deal with the flashlight user. And sometimes a survivor will be far off at the only hook in range, holding a toolbox and waiting to sabotage, and I need to leave the slugged survivor to deal with the toolbox user.
None of the above things were addressed in the PTB, so every time I was forced to slug, I was placed in a lose/lose situation. And there were Unbreakable/Flip Flop/Breakdown/Boil Over survivors that purposely tried to create these lose/lose situations, and it felt awful.
TD;LR That basekit unbreakable PTB told killers how to play, by telling them they would be punished for slugging survivors even though they sometimes literally can't hook a survivor and need to leave them slugged on the ground. So if we can tell killers that it's cool to heavily nerf slugging, can we also tell survivors that it's cool to heavily nerf lone wolf strategies?
It's not 'them telling you how to play' it's that a small portion of the community is abusing the system and ruining it for everyone.
I personally don't think infinite unbreakable is healthy and should be scrapped, but the devs have been targeting a number of game mechanics lately that are used in 'toxic' and 'abusable' ways. Flashlights are the most recent example. The click delay in the last patch and the new 'immune to locker saves' in the newest PTB are all because *some* survivors are abusing the system and ruining it for everyone else.
The slugging changes are the same thing, but for killers. They want to cut down on slugging because some killers throw hatchets at a downed survivor for 4 minutes, and you're being affected by that change too, whenever it finally goes live.
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If you think overwatch has better monetization you're delusional.
If nothing else, I've spent money on the rift one time. Ever. Over two years playing. I always finish the rift track and recover the entire cost. It's actually a net gain, since you can earn 1050 cells in the rift by the end. BHVR doesn't even incentivise buying it up front with 'increased xp' or 'bonus rift shards', so I can always wait until I hit the break even level in the rift before buying, and I've lost nothing for waiting. My $10 is still gaining value every rift.
Older (rift) cosmetics are brought into the shop and you can earn them with shards just by playing the game. Most cosmetics are purchasable in parts, so you only have to buy the pieces you want for many items. This is the exact opposite of 'bundle only' pricing that tacks on useless crap to drive up the price. Overwatch doesn't even offer an earnable, free currency anymore... you pay real money or you miss out. Even if the item you want came out 4 years ago in an event, sorry, that'll be full price.
BHVR may not be perfect, but the monetization here is extremely fair. Yes, some perks are locked behind real money transactions until they hit the shrine, but I don't even consider that to be too egregious since these are licensed characters. And the stranger things perks were made free to everyone when that license ran out.
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@pocajohnny said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3235745#Comment_3235745
According to BHVR. Killers cannot hold the game hostage. Only Survivors can do that so..
Killers can body block a survivor in a corner and not hit them (reportable, according to BHVR). The game ends when the server shuts down. There is literally nothing the survivor can do about that.
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@Gandor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3237345#Comment_3237345
This assumes perfect knowledge of what is and will be happening (something even SWF does not have) and 0 travel time. This is just not realistic. And it was tried out that this is not realistic. Otzdarva prooved it in 6.1 (so before reassurence) where he took facecamping canibal (and with canibal you have indication that there will only be facecamping) several games. He was always able to camp to death 2 survivors before the gates were powered (so you can't loose at this point - it's already secured draw). And then there is NOED time for very probable 3rd kill.
Meaning you are forced to bring reassurence or face possibility of certain team loss. It's the same as you needing to bring BT (making it one of most used perks) before 6.1 otherwise you would probably farm your teammate into next hook within 10s of unhook.
Otz actually did better than that on the PTB. He did a custom game with Hens' 4-man SWF, a team that regularly plays together and have thousands of hours each. They're basically a comp team that recently did a huge escape streak as a team. The survivorrs also knew *before the match started* who the killer was, that he'd be hard face camping, and what all of his perks and addons were. The result of that match was a 2k.
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My idea to rework insidious:
On hooking a survivor, gain the insidious buff for 60 seconds. This buff reduces your terror radius the farther you are from any hooked survivor:
No effect until 8m from a hook, then reduces your terror radius by 6m for every additional 4m from the hook. So once you are 28m from the hooked survivor, you have -30m terror radius, basically undetectable to jump scare the next survivor.
Deletes the hook/proxy camping aspect and gives a big boost to the next chase. Numbers can be tweaked, but the idea is there.
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@Bran said:
Problem. This doesn't do anything but make the game harder for the killer.
Basically the killer has to hook 4 more times. Which leads to what 7 hooks before a kill?
Not fully disregarding the unbreakable, but that still puts too much time in the survivors hands.
It's only 4 more hooks if you're hooking less than 4 hooks in a game. It doesn't add 4 stages to the game, but moves one from each survivor. Think like each survivor only has one 'hash mark' instead of two, with the removed hash marks being shared.
Technically speaking, this would make the killers job considerably easier in many cases. Since now, after the first 4 hooks, you only have to confirm/camp one hook stage to kill someone off late game. That 'good survivor' carrying the team gets one less hook stage and chase if you catch the potato teammates first.
This only makes the killers job harder if they're using a strategy that requires less than four hooks before end game. So basically face camping, and maybe an end game build where the killer doesn't go for any hooks at all. Even no way out and remember me need 4 hooks to be most effective, so there shouldn't be a problem with end game at all.
In my killer games, this wouldn't change anything to my play style, wins are still wins, losses still losses. I've been watching streamers as well with this system in mind, and I have yet to see any games where this system would have change the outcome for the killer. All it does is destroy early game camping and tunneling, without impacting those 'strategies' in the late/end game.
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@TeabaggingGhostface said:
Then you'd get the asshats that throw the game to screw over the team
Good intentions but terrible idea
You already have players who throw the game, and no amount of core gameplay changes will fix that.
If you want to go farther, you can make 'giving up on hook' take their own individual hooks, and the rest of the team is unaffected, but that doesn't seem strictly necessary. I don't believe you can fix the game by balancing around people who don't want to play it. You can, however, make core gameplay changes so the most efficient way for killers to 'win' doesn't also involve tunneling one person out of the game as fast as possible.
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@get_barted said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/350679/what-was-the-point-of-nerf-pain-resonance
They readded the effect you get off the gen with PR because of Call of Brine where on the rare occasion someone would get 40+ skill checks because PR would proc on that gen when it was above 90%
Still a dumb way to address the issue though. Pain Resonance (not Brine) isn't the only perk that can extend Merciless Storm, Jolt still does it on live right now. They should have changed Merciless directly and either added a cap to number of skill checks or time it's active. That deals with all perks interactions.
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They've been systematically revisiting maps individually (haddonfield, for ex) and introducing new tiles nearly every mid chapter. Not to mention that every person has a different idea of what 'fixing maps' even means. There are certainly players at the extremes who want either just the basement to spawn and not the map, or every map should have as many pallets as the game.
Also, knowing something needs fixing doesn't mean it can be changed instantly.
I'd love to see anyone who complains about map balance come up with a unique map design. You can always slot in tiles into the rng that drastically change the strength of the map.
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One suggestion might be to switch what time of day you play, if you can. I'm east coast NA, and there's a huge difference in gameplay at different times. I generally stop playing killer at all late in the evening, and I refer to it as 'SWF o'clock'. Games aren't fun then.
But early evening it's more solo q survivors and I can mess around, meme, do whatever and still have fun. Sometimes I just want to know that I jump scared someone into a panic.
My biggest recommendation is to not particularly care if you 'win'. I try to play for hooks and fun chases most of the time. If I get too many sweat squads in a row it's time to play something else for a bit.
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@ChurchofPig said:
It's unsportsmanlike to play the game as killer if a survivor dcs? Make it make sense
I personally don't care if the killer wants to play for hooks or fun chases, by all means have some fun since you've basically won the game for free.
But it feels like the overwhelming majority of instant dc games end up with tunneling, face camping, and slugging at 5 gens anyway. It's not just 'playing the game', it's like the killer wants solo q to be extra miserable. Do you want 100% SWF games? Cause that's how you get 100% SWF games.
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@Hunkulese said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3212264#Comment_3212264
There's no reason not to play like that now. If you're playing sweaty to win, you're already doing that. Most people are playing to have fun though since winning is meaningless in DBD.
You also lose the game if you try and camp two hooks and the survivors are awake.
That's part of my point. If BHVR are attempting to 'address' camping and tunneling, as they've stated, the finisher Mori makes that strategy far more time efficient. I suppose that 'addressing it' could mean that they officially want that to be the dominant play style, in which case job well done I suppose.
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People like resident evil and killers with mobility, side objectives, and fun mechanics like throwing survivors around.
It helps that he's one of the only killers with voice lines at all, let alone in English. So flavor is also a factor here.