Make Unhook grabs on healthy survivors result in a hook trade
Basically, the unhooker will get grabbed, but the survivor on the hook will also successfully come off the hook during the animation
This way you can still use grabs as a way to defend a hook by getting a trade, but they aren't just a loss for the survivor team 90% of the time they occur.
Comments
This completely removes the threat of hook bombing entirely. This guarantees an unhook the second you press M1.
It does not, a hook trade is an interaction that favors the killer.
Yes, it does. Read what I said again.
THIS GUARANTEES AN UNHOOK.
In this scenario, no matter what, the person on the hook gets away.
Correct and desired. Killer camping a survivor should not win the game by having single good chase and lucky grab. This is 0 skill interaction noob play (by this I mean killer with 100hrs can easily win such a game against survivors with 3k hours - all he needs are 1 or 2 lucky grabs and hard facecamp - ideally with iri huntress, trickster or bubba) that should get discouraged instead of being supported.
Why should a killer entitled to ensure the person on the hook is unable to be saved just because they got lucky and pressed m1 at the right time.
Grabs are literally no different to end game DS or end game OTR. A copout that gurantees results. With this change hook grabs still gives you another hook state but it's not a gurantee of results.
Yes the person on the hook gets away from the hook, and are immediately replaced by the person who went for the unhook.
This is a compromise that addresses the primary counter argument against removing grabs on healthy survivors entirely That being multi person saves can be guranteed escapes without the threat of a grab, this is not the case with this system.
Good. Most survivors straight up give up or DC once this happens. As a killer, it feels bad, because then I don't get a real match after that. As a survivor it feels extremely bad, because now I'm going to lose no matter what I do.
Spoiler alert - if you camped for hook grabs, you didn't have real match anyway.
I can understand trying to secure hook stage at last 10-15s if survivors let one of them on hook for too long. But this interaction is mostly only abused by camping killers. Because why not? For minimal effort you get a win. No matter if you got outplayed at every loop. Just win in the end 1 chase and get a grab. With a little bit of luck and a single grab 5 gen chase can be nullified into 4k. Very fair mechanics
Uh, if I chase a survivor and he leads me to the hook, where he attempts to unhook, do you expect me to back off and let him unhook?
If you are talking about face camping. That is easily punished by survivors. Do gens. The hook takes 2 minutes. Longer with certain perks. You should be able to do 4 gens if all three survivors not on hook do nothing but repair.
If you do all 5 gens in a single chase... no one else has been hooked yet. If the whole team comes for the unhook at the same time, it's impossible for the killer to get a trade unless he plays the grab game and wins. That I don't agree with. I honestly think they should just remove grabbing off the hook.
If he leads you to hook, you are perfectly free to down him. If he's heathy he should get 1st hit just before unhook and 2nd before saved person can take the hit (courtesy of 6.1 killer buffs). So it's trade. If you hit him before he got to hook then normal interaction proceeds - the topic is about hook grabs on heathy survivors.
For camper - survivors would need to have that perk. They need to be heathy to apply it, otherwise they would probably go down before usage (exception to multi-level map if it's not nurse) - so healing time. Also this really works only in swf, because solo will not know and they will go for save instead of staying on gens. Also after you apply it you will most likely end up injured, so it's not even 30s really (and you probably need to heal, because against camper at least 2 survivor needs to go).
On the other hand all that the killer needs to do is just stay on a single spot. Sounds fair right?
You don't "win the game" because you camped ONE person to death.
I don't want a compromise. I want that person dead. I picked that person for a reason. This would let a Survivor be an absolute horrible person in game to the killer, and he knows he can get away at the end with no counterplay from the killer because his buddy can just hook swap.
That's a hard no.
Survivors are not responsible for the behavior of Killers.
Killers are not responsible for the behavior of Survivors.
Oh but it is. Because you camped one full stage (possibly more) and got another via grab. If you get 2 grabs like this, the game is almost guaranteed to be killer's win (3k at minimum). Especially if it's bubba - so recovery from this is even harder
This is actually a good compromise on that matter. Hook bombing is still risky but camping gets a bit weaker
Bubba has nothing to do with hook grabbing. He's using an M2 power.
Your math is bad, too.
If I camp someone to NEAR DEATH, and then you trade hooks... my kill count is currently.... 0.
If they then escape and leave you my kill count is.... 1
Not sure how you got 3 from that.
If you camp stage because you grabbed. You will camp more. That's 3 stages, 2 survivors at 1 spot and the other 2 needing to both go save. If you get another grab, that's 1 alive survivor (probably out of 3, because time ran out on 1st hooked at this point). So even if survivors recover somehow (and they won't if it's bubba - that's why I mentioned him), they will just not be able to do gens. 2 hook grabs is almost guaranteed killer win when you play out the game and killer is dedicated camper with 2 working brain cells
Agreed, Behavior Interactive is responsible for creating a balanced game that doesn't make killers or survivors feel like their only option is to afk or DC. If they want the game to thrive.
I camp person A.
Team does 3 gens.
Person A dies.
The Killer now has to find, chase, down, and hook a second Survivor when he is already 30+ seconds deep into the last 2 gens popping.
This is not a 3K scenario.
opposite, it favors the survivor because they have collective amount of 8 hook-states before they die. this is why killer camp because the regression rewards them for camping & preventing unhooks.
they had a perk called reassurance that pauses hook timer so that your not forced to save the survivor from going 2nd or 3rd stage but the perk got a negative change before it came out.
This assumes perfect knowledge of what is and will be happening (something even SWF does not have) and 0 travel time. This is just not realistic. And it was tried out that this is not realistic. Otzdarva prooved it in 6.1 (so before reassurence) where he took facecamping canibal (and with canibal you have indication that there will only be facecamping) several games. He was always able to camp to death 2 survivors before the gates were powered (so you can't loose at this point - it's already secured draw). And then there is NOED time for very probable 3rd kill.
Meaning you are forced to bring reassurence or face possibility of certain team loss. It's the same as you needing to bring BT (making it one of most used perks) before 6.1 otherwise you would probably farm your teammate into next hook within 10s of unhook.
First actually talking about the suggestion. As long as the hook on the rescuer is gauranteed, so no blind or sabo or the unhook destroy perk (the Jeff one) is usable, then it would be better than completely getting rid of it.
Onto the reason it shouldn't be a thing. That is if the killer isn't camping. Survivors shouldn't have a free unhook. If the survivor wants to go for the unhook as the killer chased them towards the hook that is their risk they are willing to take.
This is not realistic? It's extremely common to lose 3 gens before the first kill. I don't know what video game you are playing. Against a really good team of survivors you can lose 3 gens before the first HOOK.
Maybe before 6.1. After 6.1 it is common to down a survivor before any gen finishes.
Maybe you haven't played the game recently, but 3 gens in 1st chase is outlier (still possible, but far from common thing). Same thing as having 1 kill before 1st completed gen is an outlier (but that can happen too)
We are talking about possibility to unhook without being grabbed while healthy. It does not do anything with regards to unhooking person if he runs YOLO at hook. He will still go down (because unhooked person still does not have any time to take BT hit for unhooker) - so such a playstyle will still get punished (for new free hook).
The difference is, that the unhooker while still going down will no longer be unable to at least get the unhook. And killer would still be even able to tunnel if he decides to leave unhooker on the ground. This is important because campers exists so sometimes you just have to go for unhook even if killer is present (because he never left)
If the killer chases the healthy survivor to the hook, then instead of the stand off all the healthy survivor does is begin the unhook and at that point it is a hook trade no matter what. (Unless the killer lets them unhook).
This is also the same in any scenario really. If the survivor is healthy, that hooked survivor gets off unless the killer can interrupt them (like witch slinger it doctor).
So the way I'm seeing it is, a healthy survivor will get the trade in many cases. And if my own suggestion isn't added in that unhooker can then be rescued by flashlight sabo whatever else.
Maybe I'm missing something, but that doesn't sound very country roads.
I think this would actually BE FAIR.
Note that if you are not facecamping the survivor (or are ranged killer that actually uses his range), you are able to injure the survivor before he gets to hook - this would mean such a survivor will NOT get the unhook and that's fair. On the other hand just standing next to hook will not give you huge advantage no matter what happens (well this still does not fix canibal, but so be it).
Flash save is always preventable (minus 2 lockers - which I agree should be deleted from game). Sabo play is almost always preventable (minus some corner plays on some maps - which I agree should get fixed. But ONLY those corners - hook density is otherwise mostly too much as is).
Giving chance at hook for survivors in every case is actually healthy for the game. It nerfs camping. Meaning if the killer is unable to chase survivor (and chases are generally (there can be unfair RNG/map for both sides) fair now after 6.1 - because killers did get chase buffs), then he should not get free win regardless. Or do you think staying at hook is something that should be rewarded with killer win?
6.1 added ten seconds to gens. TEN. SECONDS. People need to stop acting like they added five minutes.
Well it's 10 seconds PER GEN. Killers go crazy about proof thyself. It adds AT MOST 6 seconds and requires multiple people to be on a single gen (so if killer comes, someone will not get that window). 10s per gen IS A LOT
Those gens are not staggered though.
10 seconds done by three gens at the SAME time is still.... 10 seconds. Not 30.
not always, id rather keep it how it is than give survivors the potential to just run at the hook and never be able to punish them if they wait too long to save by either securing a kill or making a very weak link than getting some spread out pressure that doesn't really help my bottom line
but you can punish it. You will just have to injure him before he gets to hook or accept hook trade. One way or another unhooker still goes down
Otz actually did better than that on the PTB. He did a custom game with Hens' 4-man SWF, a team that regularly plays together and have thousands of hours each. They're basically a comp team that recently did a huge escape streak as a team. The survivorrs also knew *before the match started* who the killer was, that he'd be hard face camping, and what all of his perks and addons were. The result of that match was a 2k.
I in fact, think the gauranteed trade would not be okay. That being because I am not basing the mechanic solely on camping.
This interaction would feel pretty bad for killers who are ran to that survivor and now aren't able to defend the hook unless that survivor was already injured.
And yet flashlight clicky click was rightfully nerfed even if there was legitimate kind of use (adjust your timing or to make better 360).
Also if I play the next game now, I am pretty sure I will be (proxy) camped if downed. It's that common. I mean it's far from guaranteed, but it gives me better chance to guess it will happen then basing my guess the other way.
And if you are not camped, there is high chance you will at least get tunneled. Again. There are games where none of those 2 happen, but that in fact IS rare (like 1 out of 5 games killer does not camp or tunnel). That is a problem.
Also to make it cristal clear. Endgame camp/tunnel does not exist - there are no other objectives for killer. Proxy camp means you look for a chase by going around hook instead of around generators (so no - if I get unhooked to killer's face it's not killer but other survivor farming and if you happen to find someone when going away and chase him to the hook - that is also not camping).
Last time killer was hitting me on a hook because I did not allow him to camp freely and reassurence is "such an unfair perk" (in endgame chat). This is the current state of game.