AmpersandUnderscore
AmpersandUnderscore
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@Xernoton said:
4 slugs will very rarely happen. It's more likely someone gets tunneled and then the remaining 3 survivors get slugged. I think Bubba, Oni, Huntress and Plague will have the best chances of doing so.
Tunnel out the first survivor. Camp or proxy camp the second and interrupt the unhook. Game over in 4 hooks or less, and the killer/perks are just flavor. Bonus points if you don't even use basement to deny unhooking.
There's no reason not to play like this if it goes live, so welcome to the finisher Mori meta.
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It's a showcase for what happens when you have a strategy that enables winning the game without hooking survivors. Some people will do anything to win, even if it involves a boring, or frustrating play style for everyone involved.
It's a good thing they aren't adding in any shortcuts for every killer like this. Can you imagine if any killer could just end the game by downing all remaining survivors without hooking more than one or two of them? Man, that would suck.
Oh wait.
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Base kit unbreakable is dumb, but is absolutely necessary if they want to implement this kind of Mori system. Without it, every single game would just be a race to slug all four survivors until they bleed out or you use them all as bait. There would be literally no reason to play for anything else.
As it is, even with base kit unbreakable, eventually someone will find the most efficient way to tunnel out one survivor, and proxy camp the second to end the game in roughly 4 hooks or less.
Personally I think both the mori and base kit unbreakable should never be put to live servers.
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@Lastchild said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3206517#Comment_3206517
A game shouldn't ban DC players, which is why I'm suggesting that BOTs take over so players who stay aren't penalized.
BOTS can play very well if programmed well.
Bots should *never* be a fill in for players in regular games. Custom games, sure, but never regular matches.
Let's set aside the issues with nemesis zombies completely, which are admittedly dumb, prone to bugs/stuck, and can be completely useless or even a hindrance for nemesis if they body block.
Will a bot know to avoid line of sight with Myers, or run away from a killer like Wraith even though there's no terror radius and barely a blurry outline?
How does the bot deal with tile mind games? If it doesn't, or is random, then it's free fodder for the killer to farm stacks off of. If it does react, doesn't a bot rely on exact killer location that a player doesn't have? In that case it's got instant reaction time and possibly wall hacks.
Should a bot cleanse against the plague? The correct answer is 'it depends' which is impossible to code.
Will a bot unhook while devour is revealed, or go look for a totem instead?
And if the bot does get stuck somewhere, it's actively preventing hatch from spawning at best, and feeding the killer a free blood warden at worst.
I'd rather have an empty spot on the team than ai. If you want bots, go play the tutorial.
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@ad19970 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3208189#Comment_3208189
Why would you say that these changes are killer sided? Also I do not see how the basekit BT buff was killer sided.
It's killer sided because the game can be over far, far faster.
Tunnel the first survivor to death. Proxy camp a second survivor and prevent the unhook. If the 3rd and 4th survivor both show up to unhook (cough solo q cough), you down both and instantly win the game with 4 hooks.
Even if it's not this extreme, the finisher Mori becomes the most efficient way to end the game, which means everyone will start playing this way. Tunneling gets a huge buff if this goes live.
Imagine if they added the inverse system: the game ends instantly and grants all living survivors an escape if the 'main building' generator gets completed. Huge uptick in generator perks, toolboxes, etc because nothing else would matter. You could do five gens, or just one. Same thing with the Mori, you can end the game in twelve hooks, or as few as four (realistically).
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'Gen rushing' is most of the time just an excuse for killers who are bad at chases, map pressure, or both. 'Tunneling' is a term that is also grossly overused, for survivors bad at positioning or who think BT/OTR makes them immortal.
Many of the frustrating interactions in the game could be solved by allowing you to change key bindings.
There's a difference between 'I'm not responsible for your fun' and 'it's my job to make your game as unfun as possible'.
Predropping, camping, tunneling, and holding w are only 'strategies' if they are situational tools you use to play the game, not if you always use them all the time. If all you have is a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail. Most people need to expand their tool belt.
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@C3Tooth said:
Unbreakable was strong because no one expect you to have, where you have a chance to use.
Basekit Unbreakable makes killers straight up to pick them up instead.
This change doesnt buff survivors, but it kills the interaction between dying survivors and their teammates. No one care about coming to pick you up anymore, just Gen rush
I'm genuinely confused by the basekit unbreakable. I hate being slugged, but I don't want this as a solution to that.
Even so, the devs have a very weird view of how an individual survivor should regain health states. Dying -> injured is base kit, and you can run a single perk to do it in 22.5 seconds. Injured -> healthy is impossible without a perk, and the perk that allows you to do it infinitely and anywhere also takes 42 seconds. (Not at all saying that self-care should be changed, but that it's weird that self-care is a heavily nerfed perk, but the basekit unbreakable is treated so differently.)
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@Seraphor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3207643#Comment_3207643
"1k - Beat the last survivor in the hatch race ..."
...that's a 4K, and it relies on the gamble of beating them to the hatch. If you want the Mori, you need to slug.
"2k - Find the last two, slug one and down the other fast, BAM finisher mori. Or hook one and find & down the last one, BAM finisher mori as well."
That's a 4K... and exactly what I'm talking about.
"3k - Have one already dead, two hooked, find and down the last, BAM finish mori."
Also a 4K, and once again comes at the risk of the hooked survivors killing themselves to get the hatch for the last survivor.
You've just given several examples of the exact scenario I'm talking about. That doesn't mean it's going to be any easier or common, all of them require doing exactly what survivors hate, tunnelling and slugging.
Tunnel the first survivor relentlessly to death (at most 3 hooks). Camp or proxy camp the second person (4th hook). Down the third on their way to the save. If the fourth also shows up (cough soloq cough) down them too. The game is over at 4 hooks with a finisher mori.
This is the new meta way to play killer.
Also, the finisher mori includes "escaped" survivors. So even in a bad game, that trio of survivors healing at the exit gate can still die. Two walk out the door and you hit the injured guy pointing at the exit gate? He doesn't get to crawl or even fall out the exit, he gets mori'd and dies.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3206475#Comment_3206475
"Maybe there's differing opinions on this, but I think "slugging for the 4k" really is only a problem when you don't know where the last survivor is so you try to use the third survivor to either bait the fourth out of hiding or you use it as a way to give yourself more time to find the last one. For the slugged survivor, this is a PITA to wait 4 minutes. If a killer tries to do that with this change, they get punished pretty harshly at 45 seconds and are more encouraged to hook the survivor immediately if they don't know where the fourth survivor is."
Thing is, you can just comb the map looking for the fourth survivor in roughly 45s phases, returning to the slug to whack them back down. You will eventually find and down that last survivor, and if the first slug still manages to get back up before you get that final down, you just repeat the process with the survivors in opposite roles.
You won't be able to repair any gens during this whack-a-mole process, so you're essentially held hostage, in a process that will likely take longer than the 4 minute bleedout timer.
This whack-a-mole game will be the only way to guarantee a finisher Mori, and the best way to guarantee a 4K after tunneling out the first two survivors, as you'll be bypassing 6 hook stages.
This will be the new meta strategy.
Yeah this is my concern too. Killers will just camp the slug, especially if the slug isn't on death hook yet. Anything to delay hatch spawning and guarantee the 4k, especially since all you need to do with these changes is down them.
The biggest problem imo with the finisher mori is that it's by far the most efficient way to close out the game. You could, theoretically, and the game with a 4k win and 0 hooks. Now, that's an exception, sure, but...
Tunneling now becomes even more the optimal way to play the game. Killing off the first survivor is critical. Tunnel the first survivor, proxy camp the second, and you can likely just win by downing the person going for the unhook. Every game will be like this, and I already hate it.
(Sure people do this now, but it means that catching the last survivor who might also be going for the unhook ends the game immediately, rather than any counter play.)
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I genuinely wonder sometimes what people think survivors are supposed to be doing in this game. They're either working on the objective (gens), interacting with the killer, or idle/afk.
Working on the objective in any capacity is 'gen rushing' and a huge no no. Apparently not doing gens and being altruistic is also heinous and game breaking. So, you just want NPC survivors that sit idle until you're ready to deal with them?
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@Nazzzak said:
I anticipate an increase in slug camping instead of hook camping when there's 2 survivors left. I'm guessing they'll have to crawl to a pallet or safe spot before fully recovering. Gives the other survivor time to smash out the remaining gens, but we know how unreliable solo queue players are... remains to be seen how that goes
Not just slug camping, which will also be annoying. But the finisher Mori will become the most efficient way to end the game every time.
Just tunnel every person off hook and there's one less person to have to slug. Tunnel the first survivor, proxy camp the second, and slug camp the third will be every game. Literally no one will play for hooks if you can close out a game in five hooks or less every game.
This is a terrible idea all around. And the only reason they're considering infinite Unbreakable (also a terrible idea) is to implement the finisher mori. It might make for an interesting limited time mode on the PTB, but none of this should ever go live.
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@Marigoria said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3204293#Comment_3204293
Can't you still do it? If everyone is slugged, they can just use unbreakable but they dont auto die.
Usually with slug races the killer just downs you at the entry of the gate and then you go.
With the way the last standing Mori is worded, it will now automatically end the game when all survivors are dying/slugged, dead, or hooked.
So as soon as you slug the last one, game ends and they all die, even if they had deliverance, unbreakable, or other answers to keep the game going otherwise.
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Don't forget, killers won't close the hatch anymore either. If you're already at that point in the game just stand on the open hatch and wait. What's the last survivor gonna do, finish gens?
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Past few weeks Wesker, it seems like Wesker killer diversity Wesker has been Wesker pretty low Wesker. I've only seen Wesker a couple killers Wesker since the Wesker patch. Can't Wesker really think Wesker of who Wesker has been Wesker popular. Poor performance indeed.
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Because Last Standing, by their own description, has no requirement of how long the game has been. It would give killers a much, much, much easier win condition than 12 hook stages.
If they just implemented Last Standing, and did nothing else, every killer would just slug every survivor at five gens. Because the game could be over after four chases, instead of up to twelve or more. Some nurses can already do this now, but it'll be the optimal/fastest way to win if they implement it.
I'm not saying base kit infinite Unbreakable is a good thing, it's not. I think Last Standing is dumb, and will just become the end of game every killer aims for, because it's always the easier play.
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I'll take the lowest tier item I possibly can if I have a challenge, or just rely on perks like saboteur and blast mine. Might grab a chest item if I'm desperate in the match, but that's usually for a horrific 3-gen, or a key (it's never a key when I need it).
I haven't even been bringing bp offerings since the 6.1 mid chapter patch, it just isn't worth it.
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@CaulDrohn said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3177884#Comment_3177884
It's really stupid that survivors get warned beforehand, that makes the perk so much weaker. Imo the warning should be shown to the individual survivors when they were under the effect for the first time, but not before, similar to hex perks.
The reason is because of how they have dissolution working. If you wanted it to hide itself, it would have to only work on the one survivor you injured during the active window.
As it stands right now, if a survivor across the map steps in a bear trap and becomes injured, the perk activates. The survivor being chased 75m away, who is healthy, vaults a pallet that then instantly shatters with no warning.
Surely you can see how that's a problem. The perk is 'working as intended' but is completely counter intuitive to the survivor in that case. It feels random, and more specifically it feels like a bug. At least with the notification there's some cause and effect, even if the reason the perk is active isn't 100% clear.
Imagine if boil over gave no notification until the survivor wiggled out from a fall. Same concept.
And you can still chase survivors into positions where they are forced to vault a pallet, even with the notification of what will happen.
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@Loldino said:
Lets look at why The Perk is ussless now
They Nerfed it because of survivors using it to Keep others on hook forever
In other words SWF abused it and got it nerfed for all of you
I've heard this a lot, but no one can answer my question. Do you have evidence this occurred? A clip, vod, video, anything?
I'm not saying it isn't possible for a couple survivors to work together with the killer to hold someone hostage, just that no one seems to have evidence, only 'saying it happened.' Almost like people just made up an urban legend and stuck with it.
And nerfing the perk is useless for responding a bully situation, since a couple survivors can work together with the killer right now to body block anyone from moving. Base kit, no perks required. Same hostage situation, but that seems to be a non issue. Strange.
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@RaSavage42 said:
Hook grapping shouldn't be taken away... it all depends on timing (it's the same thing as Gen grapping)
Best thing to do is to push Gens while the person is being camped (sorry to say)
With camping being the go to strat... it is safe to assume the Devs are looking at how and why it happens
But I can say why... regression is so low right now (.25 charges per second) it needs to be increased... and it'll put a dent in Killers running 4 regression perks (but that isn't a guarantee)
Hooks should have the exact same coding and logic as vaults. You can grab an injured survivor, but you can't grab a healthy survivor.
Not being able to hook grab a healthy survivor is only a win for both sides. It discourages and gives counter play to face camping, and survivors spend time healing instead of gens. Besides, with the new hit recovery, you can basically guarantee a hook trade even with two hits.
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@Blackboar22 said:
It could be used to hold the game hostage and now it can still be used to completely counter facecamping, any of u survivor mains out there, get to high mmr killer and try facecamping at 5gens, it doesnt really work that well. (last part was for people saying facecamping is to op). the perk is still strong against facecamping.
I'll ask you, since I have yet to have a single response to this question:
Do you have evidence of reassurance being used to keep people hostage on the PTB? A clip, vod, video, anything?
I get that, in theory, two or more survivors could team up with a killer to keep one survivor on hook indefinitely, but no one seems to have any evidence that this actually occurred. The perk was nerfed entirely because of outcry, and, as far as I can tell, no one has actually experienced the griefing scenario.
But hey, face camping is still strong as ever. Look at that.
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@My_Aespa said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/343768/gosh-for-the-anti-camping-and-tunneling-patch
Every one I've played against has proxy camped, got 4 gens done, just to get camped at the end and died at first hook. No one is using reassurance yet lol
Reassurance won't help. I had a game last night where the first survivor got tunneled out early, and I still got hard face camped when I got downed next. Even through one reassurance.
All reassurance does in that situation is guarantee that someone is not on gens and instead traveling to hook. Maybe before the nerf it would've been useful, since one survivor could activate multiple times, but now it's useless.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3151262#Comment_3151262
With this perk, a survivor has up to 5 minutes on the hook. That should be more than enough time to finish all gens and attempt a rescue during the endgame.
With 4 survivors running this perk, the three not being face camped could give the survivor additional time on hook if they can get all close enough to sniff the hook without being downed themselves. Every activation takes survivors' time away from gens because of travel time, and the strategy doesn't work at all if they are being camped in the basement. In main building basements, you have to go to the bottom of the stairs to be close enough, and, while you can technically activate it from above the hook if basement is in shack, the killer can also just camp the shack upstairs and deny the spot of ground at maximum range directly above the hook that would allow the perk to work. It also won't work if the hook is in a dead zone, where a killer can easily proxy camp the hook and prevent anyone from getting within activation range.
Maybe, before the single activation nerf, one survivor could have invested the time to delay the hook to make this work. Because the other two could just focus on generators without interruption. But now that "maximum hook time" requires all three others to leave gens to pull off, it's a losing strategy for the survivor team every time.
I'm never sure why the assumption in these scenarios is that a killer who is hard camping a hook has absolutely no awareness of or interest in the other three. Every killer I've ever seen is perfectly happy to proxy camp a bit if it means camping a hook and a slug at the same time for extra free pressure. And proxy camping is way, way more common in my experience than hard face camping.
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If someone is killing themselves on hook early I always go for the save. Even if they just head straight to the killer and ask to be hooked, they're doing more for me in that game than being sacrificed. I get rescue points for a game that is probably going to net very little, they are forced to stay longer in a game they apparently just want to quit (which is the only punishment for giving up early), and they get to waste the killer's time a tiny bit longer before they can actually leave.
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@SuzuKR said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3139939#Comment_3139939
Congratulations, you are actively blaming the killer for not happening to run perks in case survivors actively break rules to hold the game hostage. Killers should not be forced to take perks because people might break rules.
It’s hilarious how you think legitimate gameplay is even the tiniest bit comparable whatsoever to actively breaking game rules to specifically NOT play.
🤡
Since we don't have an actual video, every single discussion in this thread is entirely hypothetical and based on subjective experiences in game. It could be anything from "killer diligently searches the entire map constantly for 90 minutes" (which some people here assume), or "killer checked the four remaining gens once and didn't see any survivors, so I'm going to tab out to post about a hostage situation", or anything in between. Arguably, the first extreme is against the rules and the second is a killer being lazy and entitled. The reality is somewhere in between and depends entirely on the situation.
Personally, I've never had "extreme hiding" from any survivors in any of my games. When I do get into a situation where they are playing more defensively I have always been able to draw them out or mind game a bit to catch them out. I also run one or more information perks normally, so I can find survivors easier/faster. So, from my perspective, this issue is at minimum exaggerated, or possibly an issue with the killer not bringing the right tools.
It's the killer's job to locate, chase down, and kill survivors. It's not up to the survivors to present themselves for death when the killer decides the game should be over. If the killer is failing to "find" survivors, they objectively are doing a bad job at their primary role. That's why there are perks, killer powers and addons, and base game mechanics that make it possible to find survivors.
If this stalemate scenario happens once, then sure, some players are #########, just go next. But people here seem to talk about it as though this is happening every other game. If this is actually happening often, that is certainly not a common scenario for everyone, and that killer should consider ways to make it easier for them to find survivors. There are many of them in the game. Also, if you have enough pressure on a regular basis to encourage many survivors to go into extreme hiding, you certainly have perk slots you can swap out. You don't always need 4 slowdowns.