AmpersandUnderscore
AmpersandUnderscore
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@KenwanObinobi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3462444#Comment_3462444
How do you monitor the effect of a perk when pretty much 100% of the killers are camping and tunneling to still get 4k ?
The dev team does not understand that killers are using cheap mechanics to stil lget 4k and so the stats are irrevelent to show the balance of the game ?
If 100% of the killers are tunneling and then get a 4k, but are unable to get more than 1k if they do not tunnel, is the game balanced ? NO
BHVR has stats and data they can use. Specifically they can correlate the perk usage with escape rate to have an idea of how effective the perk is overall. If the perk usage is low, and the escape rate isn't significantly changed by running the perk over other options (Sprint burst or lithe), then they likely won't make changes.
If killers are really still getting 4ks like crazy even with MfT in play, then it sounds like you're arguing that survivor perks need to be even stronger to have a chance.
But the idea that killers are tunneling only because of this perk, or weren't tunneling before this chapter release, or would suddenly, immediately stop tunneling if this perk were deleted... are all absolutely ridiculous. You seen to be simultaneously arguing that killers can easily get a 4k by tunneling, yet MfT is so overpowered that it makes killer impossible and needs a nerf. Pick one, at most.
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@JustAnotherNewbie said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3466083#Comment_3466083
Toolbox works that way and it doesn't get abused. Plus you trade a healthstate or two most of the time. It's a fair trade. On top of that the killer can go to a different hook anyway, it's not like the maps have shortage of hooks.
Toolbox has limited charges, which are consumed as part of the sabotage action, not taken all at once at the end of the animation. The toolbox will run out, no matter how many perks or add-ons you bring to extend it's life, or if you actually complete the animation to break a hook or not.
If the cooldown for Saboteur didn't trigger until you had successfully broken a hook you could 95%/cancel it indefinitely.
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@JustAnotherNewbie said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3465006#Comment_3465006
I also find it stupid for the same reason. I don't understand why it works this way.
The reason it works like it does it to prevent abuse cases.
The game only allows either the survivors or the killer to interact with items at any given time, which is why you can't kick a gen while it's being repaired.
Similarly, the killer can't interact with a hook during the sabotage animation. So if the cooldown only started after the hook was broken, you could start the animation, cancel it at 95% and immediately restart it, all while blocking the hook from being used for free.
The only way to avoid that issue would be to have the killer hook override the sabotage action, so you could hook while the sabotage was in progress but not yet finished (like how you can kick a pallet that is being lifted by any means necessary). That would completely destroy saboteur into uselessness.
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@Sonzaishinai said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3464785#Comment_3464785
ok i fluffed up the math hard yesterday so here is everything together.
Killer starts 5m with hitting distance, hits you and you just hold w untill hit again
Killer moves at 4.6m/s, Killer has a 2.7 second cooldown on attack where they don't move. Survivor base is 4m/s, on hit survivors gain a 65% speed increase for 1.8 seconds which by base is 6.6m/s
Perkless
It takes the killer 5/0.6= 8.33 seconds before the initial hit
Survivor makes (6.6*1.8)+(4*0.9)= 15.48 meters of distance
Killer catches that up at 0.6 m/s so in 15.47/0.6= 25.8 seconds he makes up the difference
add the 2.7 seconds of swipe cooldown and it takes 28.5 seconds after the first hit to the second hit
So total time waste is 8.33+28.5= 36.83 seconds
Sprint Burst
Sprint burst lets the survivor run at 6m/s for 3 seconds so they gain (6-4.6)*3= 4.2 meters additional distance
It then takes the killer (5+4.2)/0.6= 15.33 seconds for the hit
add the 3 seconds of sprint burst and it takes 18.33 seconds for the initial hit
Everything after this is the same so in 28.5 seconds the killer has gained the distance
So total time waste is 18.33+28.5= 46.83 seconds
10 seconds more then base
Overcome
Overcome changes the time of on hit speedboost from 1.8 seconds to 3.8 seconds
So again 8.33 seconds for the initial hit
Then the survivor makes (6.6*2.7)+(2*1.1)= 20.02 meters of distance
Killer catches up at 0.6 so 20.02/0.6= 33.36 seconds before they gained the distance
add the 3.8 seconds of Overcomming and we have 37.16 seconds after first hit before second
So total time waste is 8.33+37.16= 45.5 seconds
8.66 more then base (I don't know how i got 13.56 seconds last night lol, don't half ass things if you want it to be correct is what i learned)
Made for This
Made for This increases the survivors movement speed by 3% to 4.12 m/s while injured
Now i'm not 100% sure how that interracts with the on hit speed boost but i'm pretty sure it stacks addictively so the on hit speedboost turns to 4*1.68=6.72 m/s
So again 8.33 seconds for the first hit
Then the survivor makes (6.72*1.8)+(4.12*0.9)= 15.8 meters of distance
Killer catches up at 0.48 meters per second so in 15.8/0.48= 32.9 seconds they gained the distance
add the 2.7 cooldown and we have 35.6 seconds after the first hit before the second
Total time waste is 8.33+35.6= 43.93 seconds
7.1 more then base
Ofcourse it is important to remember that our matches aren't happening in infinite voids so these numbers don't really represent what happens in actual games but they give a close enough estimate i think. These numbers always feel so unbelievable (my solo teammates don't usually last 28.5 seconds after the first hit) so anyone who wants to skim through for errors feel free
Another important thing to remember is that this is vs powerless m1 killers, Made for This power comes from how big the percentual difference is between 0.6 and 0.48. Which allows it to gain a lot of distance over time. This greatly deminishes vs any power that adds speed. For example 0.48/0.6 vs m1 killers adds 25% to the chase time while vs a blight who moves at 9.2 m/s during rushes it only adds 5.2/5.08 or about 2.4% to the chase time while the rushes are active. The burstiness of perks like sprint burst will help waay more vs bursty speed killers when it comes to holding w. Even Overcome has this going for it
In short if you want to delay the first hit or want to be able to hold w vs burst speed killers go sprint burst. If you're confident in looping go Make for This, if you want it easy without thinking go Overcome
Aside from what I think is a typo with 6.6 m/s listed for Sprint burst (you have it correctly as 6.0 elsewhere) this is roughly right, but represents a worst case upper bound for chase time.
Some hidden assumptions here are that the killer isn't using their power in any way (so for example a huntress hatchet or exposed ability could just end the chase within 10 seconds regardless of move speed).
You're also assuming that chases are lasting upwards of 40+seconds, but not including any estimate of a lower bound with bloodlust. This actually can impact the comparison by quite a bit, since Sprint burst and overcome could cause the chase to drop and not only reset the bl timer, but also prevent chase until the killer gets close enough. But bloodlust doesn't drop with MfT without deliberate killer action (like kicking a pallet on cooldown).
Since you have a worst case scenario, which assumes no bloodlust, adding in bloodlust changes the MfT time. There could be minor adjustments with Sprint burst and overcome, but likely the amount of time breaking chase entirely will only result in bl1 at best, with a pretty minor impact to the time for those two. There's no chance to break chase with MfT simply by movement speed, and I think it's fair since none of the other comparisons include mind games or other factors (body blocks, etc).
For MfT: First 15s no change, then 10s of bl1, then 10s of bl2, then any remaining time is at bl3. Keeping in mind bloodlust only takes effect after the initial hit, since a successful attack resets the timer.
So using your 15.8m distance, the killer gains at .48 for 15s, so 7.2m gained (8.6 left), then 10s at .68 for 6.8m (1.8m left). A lunge attack causes the killer to move at 6.9m/s for .8 seconds, so a lunge from max range is possible after about .31 seconds of bloodlust 3. Without a lunge, and going for 'exact zero' is roughly 2 seconds of BL3.
So 27 seconds plus the initial 8.33 from your head start, gives 35.33 total. Which is far, far shorter than the exhaustion options.
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While I don't like or agree with the 'excessive hiding' play style, there are limited options that BHVR could implement to target it that wouldn't be insanely abusable.
Most people argue for notifying the killer with auras or crows in this situation, but the amount of time you would have to wait before triggering this would be so long as to be ridiculous.
A few minutes is completely insufficient for genuine gameplay. In an incredibly common 'slug for the 4k' scenario, the last survivor has no choice but to hide for hatch/door for at least 4 minutes while the 3rd bleeds out. That goes up to about 6-7 minutes once you start adding in searching for hatch and the EGC if the killer closes the hatch. That's legitimate gameplay in an extremely common scenario that there is absolutely no reason for the survivor to throw the game and volunteer to die by touching a gen because of this rare issue.
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Pretty sure the devs have stated they don't want to provide this information, and I doubt it has anything to do with tunneling.
If I had to guess, it would be an argument of immersion, where the killer just starts playing exclusively based on the UI regardless of play style instead of reading the map, available targets, and general game play to pick a survivor.
It'd be similar to if survivors suddenly got a pointer on a compass to regressing gens. Sure, some people might just ignore it, but most players are going to change what they might normally do without that information to go for the obvious target the UI is literally yelling at them for.
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@Pumpkinbros said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3463149#Comment_3463149
also to point out if you're worried about the "honor system" you can also look at your match's edit history
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/7XUSEJRPP444/image.png
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/PC28RFT1R9GY/image.png
it also lets you know if it was verified, by saying "This is not a duplicate it's original"
as you can see though the edits were all made by me and that was the initial manual entry of the details of the match since end screens do not tell you what map you played on, and the a.i. does not quite recognize the terrormisu very well, there are a lot of verifications to this that sort of outweigh my suspicion of tampering
Oh I don't disagree that it's the best we've got since BHVR doesn't release statistics hardly ever. I'd love to have official stats every 3-6 months for transparency on how much the balance shifts with patches.
Like I said, it can be a good reference generally, but pointing to the numbers as hard, definitive, 100% accurate is not correct either. It's a sample size, and statistically we already know that sample isn't representative of the entire population.
I generally don't think there's 'bad' data there. But acknowledging that there is potential for biased data, and that it is incomplete data, is the statistically honest way of approaching those stats.
I usually think of the self care example when people start pulling out Nightlight numbers as gospel truth, because BHVR's stats from September had self care in the top 3, but nightlight had it in I think the top 15 or top 20 for that same period iirc.
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Even if you successfully deleted the unhook attempts in stage 1, *and* and missed skill checks in stage 2, there's nothing that forces someone to play. They'll just stand afk at the base of the hook and wait.
If you want to prevent people from just giving up, you're better off targeting I dunno, any? of the reasons people lose hope early in the game. Some things you can't do much about, like people who don't like a certain killer.
But I can guarantee there would be far less of an issue if being the first person downed didn't also mean you just didn't get to play the game that match at all. Let's start with that one.
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@JPLongstreet said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3462499#Comment_3462499
Wait a minute.
Aren't those stats from a site that relies on the playerbase themselves entering in loadout information? On their honor? And it's only PC players too?
So we're taking it on faith they're putting in accurate info, and not including the largest portion of the playerbase either?
That's exactly what it is. And while I don't think there's inaccuracy in the data (I think it parses a screenshot of the end game screen instead of manual entry iirc) there are several issues with using it as the final word.
- People tend to post more about frustrating or annoying games, so individual bias might come into play. This is especially true on the forums, and holds true on other sites as well.
- It's far, far from a full player base sample. For example, it's an English website, so basically North America and Europe are the primary sources. Large player bases that don't speak English (China) aren't represented hardly at all.
- Data that is regional is the most noticeable difference. Self care is very popular in Asia, and almost never showed up in the top perk picks on Nightlight. See point #2 above.
I see nightlight as an interesting tidbit, but it isn't always accurate. Official BHVR starts are the only way to really know, and they don't give it starts as often as I'd like.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3461878#Comment_3461878
He's always been my PFP.
It's great when you pull up my profile and he sort of becomes translucent.
So...
Sheev and Steve wherever you go? I can respect that lol.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3461209#Comment_3461209
Well, keys are essentially valueless now, toolboxes aren’t very strong (just BNP-situationally), and I can’t really think of any healing perk ideas that wouldn’t just be reiterations of what already exists. So all they can really do is buff healing.
Perks that add a partial heal for other actions, like maybe totem actions, or opening a chest (to synergize with pharmacy) could have potential... But not with hemmhorage in it's current state. It currently hard counters those effects and sloppy butcher is too prevalent to allow those kinds of perks to be useful in any capacity. Resurgence and reactive healing are already completely useless because of that effect.
But that type of perk has some design space they could work in: anything that encourages the survivor to do something as a side objective and give them a partial heal as an incentive.
I'm not even sure what they could do with hemmhorage tbh. It was strictly a ######### tracking effect before, and anything else it could do with the theme of bleeding out would be either barely useful (like the extra blood pools) or crazy powerful (like a slugged survivor bleeding out faster).
Maybe making cries of pain slightly louder while injured or dying would be ok, but that seems like a stretch too.
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@KenwanObinobi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3459689#Comment_3459689
All killers should work on all maps.
Fact that most maps are survivor sided, while survivors are already busted, is a joke. It has been a survivor sided game for 7 years straight...
But expecting all killers to perform equally on every map is absurd.
Nurse and huntress would be unstoppable if the map had no obstacles or los blockers whatsoever. Just give them an open field and it's an easy win...
But that kind of map is literally the worst case scenario for ghost face, who would prefer a map with lots of los blockers and cover to approach and stalk from. Which, coincidentally, is the worst kind of map for nurse or huntress.
And that's just one example.
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@MDRSan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3457469#Comment_3457469
It’s not free. You can argue about whether the price is commiserate with the gain but you can’t ignore that you need to be injured for it to be in play.
I've started referring to it as 'the perk costs a health state to activate'.
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@not_requested49 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3459247#Comment_3459247
Could be that it slowly progresses itself over time, starting at first extremely slow but then mabye as more time passes it gets faster and faster
Could be.
Personally I'm not a huge fan of either side being able to 'win by default' in a stalemate situation because it just gives an alternate win condition.
The whole reason 3 genning even took off at all is because the game defaults to ending with a killer win after an hour. I don't think it would've been nearly as popular a strategy if the game just ended, gave out blood points, and was considered nullified when the timer expired. No escape points, no free kills, just basically disconnect the players but give out BP.
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@appleas said:
https://youtu.be/hpgchXyKu68?t=1067
Posting the Sadako BL 3 vs Resilience + MFT video with timestamp. I’m sure some people will still find some reason for it being a niche scenario and totally unrepresentative of the majority of the games. Please note that I am not the creator of this video and please do not harass him.
If you back up 10 seconds to right before your timestamp, he literally breaks an unsafe pallet that could've caught the survivor.
He then goes to one of the safest pallet loops on that map and tries to force it through. This isn't a showcase of made for this, it's how making a bad decision at a loop can cost you time. Red should've either stayed at the first pallet without breaking it, or broken the safe pallet right away.
Even with that error... He finished the game with a 4k. So the lesson to be learned here is that even with a strong survivor perk, a weak chase killer, and the killer making mistakes, if you're skilled enough at the game you can still recover and win without the doors being powered.
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I'm not sure what they have in mind to 'fix' a 3 gen from the start kind of strategy, and I'm not even sure how they could fix that issue without an overhaul to at least part of the core game mechanics.
Unfortunately, the only mechanic that currently prevents a stalemate situation is the EGC, but that obviously doesn't cover everything, including 3 gens or when the last 2 survivors do nothing but hide indefinitely.
The only solution I've heard that I even kind of like was someone suggested having an 8th generator in the basement under the stairs that only one survivor could work on, and was completely blocked by a door or something unless a stalemate was detected. So basically it only came into play if the game stalled, but not in a 'normal' game.
Even then though, what happens when the basement is also in the 3 gen? It'll just get camped with the rest of them and we're back to square 1.
Moving the unfinished gens to the edge of the map will just cause trapper and hag to have to walk across the entire map for no real reason, and mobility isn't the strong suit of a setup killer.
I suspect having a mechanic that forces the killer to leave the area in the event of a stalemate is probably what they have in mind. Like adding a switch in the basement that is only available when a stalemate scenario is detected. Have it take 90 seconds or more for the killer to activate, like a gen, so they have to commit to being away from the 3 gen, but then triggers the EGC with doors unpowered if they finish it.
I still don't like that option, because it seems ineffective at best or prone to abuse at worst, but something like that could be possible.
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@mustdogen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3458365#Comment_3458365
25% distance is not joking.
Just imagine the pallet and windows are 25% closer than now,oh it is even better, because you have more reaction time than just make pallet and windows 25% closer.
So, two things:
You've mentioned in other posts about a '24m chase' which is where (I assume) your getting this 25% value from. If so, this is incredibly misleading since that is a single *thought experiment* number that, even if it captures real game data, it only captures one, very specific, and honestly, cherry picked scenario to try and highlight your point.
Why a percentage? When people were complaining (rightly so) about old dead hard for distance the argument was always about chase time. 'It adds 40s on average to chase', even if the number didn't apply to every chase.
Again, we're back to trying to make MfT as evil as possible, because the percentage is highly dependent on chase time, which only BHVR would have, though I'm not sure they even have the tools to track that level of detail.
In reality, exhaustion perks like lithe or Sprint burst will extend chases by as much or more than MfT, even while healthy, in a lot of situations too. Especially if the chase involves any mechanics that hard counter MfT, such as instadowns from healthy, bloodlust, or nearly any killer power mechanic.
Most exhaustion perks grant 3s of 150% movement speed, and in those 3 seconds the survivor moves an extra 6m over base move speed (18m vs 12m). In order for MfT to even come close to that distance, you'd have to be in chase, while injured, for 50s to gain an additional 6m of distance to even match a Sprint burst or lithe.
50s is an absurdly long time for *half* a chase. Bloodlust 3 takes less time to obtain than that, and even bloodlust 1 could be gained *3 times* in that long of a chase if the killer is intentionally kicking pallets to get rid of it.
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This could have been easily fixed by making the perk opt in for the hooked survivor. 'Hold E to cancel reassurance' literally solved every issue with the perk.
That fix was suggested to the devs as a way to keep the perk relevant for it's intended purpose, even in the rare, outlier scenario that at least 2 survivors and the killer were all coordinating to hold someone hostage. Which is what it took to make that happen with a 30s duration, 40s cooldown, and 6m range.
But instead, the perk was gutted and is only useful if you have comms. Even then it can barely function in places like the basement, where the hooks are simply out of range until you're at the bottom of the stairs.
And because reassurance is only marginally useful, now the devs are planning another band aid fix for camping that will suffer a similar fate. It'll get tested, people will complain as much as possible, and it'll also get nerfed into uselessness if it even makes it to live at all.
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@Pulsar said:
Agreed.
People who shop for lobbies are just as bad as people who DC upon 1st down or 1st gen popping, imo.
I hold what might be an unpopular opinion that lobby shopping is worse.
Early DC can ruin a match for 4 other players, but a lobby dodge ruins it for 5 others.
Although if the matchmaker didn't basically shut off to prioritize a back fill I might not feel that way.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3456578#Comment_3456578
I thought reason why survivor would use deja vu is to gen-rush constantly.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3456579#Comment_3456579
Killer players could say the same. survivor gen-rush constantly and 6 minute games are unfun for killer. Survivors often tend to pick farm maps and all these crazy map offerings as well.
Then consider this the exact same reason that locker grabs got base kit light born and the rpd library was changed twice before being removed:
Some percentage of players were abusing the ######### out of it and got it nerfed for everyone. This is the same thing with holding games hostage with a 3 gen from the start of the game.
Does it suck if you don't use those stats? Sure. But blame the players who are literally 'not playing the game as designed' in BHVR's own words on this particular issue. In this case, that would be killers clinging to 3 gens with a death grip starting in the lobby.
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@Skill_issue said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3454514#Comment_3454514
surviving doesnt give the optimal bloodpoints for survivors though...gen rushing and escaping only gives around 15 to 20 thousand bps
True, but it's 7k BP just for escaping. So if you're getting 15-20k total, somewhere between half to a third of that is just from the escape.
Not to mention that a 'bad' survivor game could get you as little as 3-5k if you're tunneled out of the game immediately.
So either way you're getting very little in the way of BP, and the only real incentive is the bigger chunk you get for actually escaping.
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@fulltonon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3455983#Comment_3455983
The risk is the fact killer has to hit the survivor, it's as hard as being injured.
But then you can add whatever side-effect like perk limitation or something to make it on-par with the perk, it doesn't really change how broken it is.
Also if you read the title, you'd see it's "permanent hinderance for survivors who IS injured" so of course it will go away when you heal.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3455920#Comment_3455920
Basically all killer power is made to have (even though not exactly same) both downside and upside, hux and doctor is a great example of it... they can negate pallets or teleport, but then they both have big slowdown after/during his power usage, ultimately rendering the power much less effective than it seems.
So no, no power is a "counter" for MFT, all the power is designed against 100% movement speed because that's literally the how game is meant to be played in normal circumstance, every power gets hefty damage from MFT too (notably power with slowdown like hux or doctor).
I don't get why people thinks basekit powers/bloodlust can in any way "counter" movement speed buff really, when all those things are already meant to be a counter against pallet and windows and smaller hitbox and quadrupled amount of players.
I don't get why people thinks basekit powers/bloodlust can in any way "counter" movement speed buff really,
I genuinely find it impossible to believe that anyone could honestly say they have no idea how hindering a survivor (for 8-15%), instadowning a survivor from healthy, injuring a survivor from ranged, increasing the killer's movement speed (up to 9+m/s in some cases), and other abilities hard counter a 3% move speed increase.
If a 5% movement speed increase doesn't overcome a 3% movement speed increase in your mind, then I have nothing more to say on the matter.
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@GlamourousLeviathan said:
People seem to forget that killers are faster when running and slower when they have to deal with pallets and windows, while survivors are slower when running and faster when vaulting pallets and windows. So if you make a certain course with X amount of windows and make a race between killers and survivors, in theory they should arrive at the same time.
Of course, survivors shouldn't have the same speed as killer from point A to point B, since the killer has to deal with 4 other survivors and can't waste too much time on one. That's why loop balance exists, but when loop balance isn't enough (looking at you Groaning Store house's main building) you need something to stop survivors from infinitely going over the same place to make them being caught impossible. That is why window blocking exists and that is why bloodlust exists.
They are just very situational mechanics that help deal with certain tiles. Window blocking only applies after 3 vaults on only one window and bloodlust takes a while to activate and disappears when either you hit a survivor or when you break a pallets, that's because then the game assumes that you have dealt with that loop and doesn't need those tools anymore. Essentially, you shouldn't rely on bloodlust nor window blocking every time because they take time to activate, and if you do rely on them, you will be wasting too much time on each chase.
I don't necessarily disagree with your points here, but I will say that simply running behind a survivor isn't the only solution available to killers.
Every killer has a power. Nearly every killer power in the game assists in chase in some way as well. Killers can take health states from range, instantly down a healthy survivor, hinder survivors, give themselves movement speed, gain stealth, teleport, zone survivors, or even several combinations of these at once. A couple can even vault pallets or windows with their power, or even shatter pallets as a part of their power.
I'm not sure why most of these haste discussions seem to assume there's absolutely nothing the killer can do here. A huntress with an empty loadout (no perks, no add-ons) still has two methods of hard countering this, for free, base kit: bloodlust or hatchets.
If you're going to play a killer like they have no power whatsoever, then no amount of 'game balance' will help you.
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Did I miss that they're adding the bloodlust equivalent of this as well?
Where after 15 seconds of a survivor being in chase, the killer suffers 5% hindered effect that stacks up to 3 times?
If we're going with analogous perks, you need to include at least one of the base kit effects that goes along with it.
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@fulltonon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3453219#Comment_3453219
If you actually consider about "distance" alone, it really isn't "far weaker" than DH, all you need for 3 meter is something like 25 seconds or so of chase time which really isn't uncommon in any way, and unlike dead hard it isn't even limited to straight line, allowing you to fully juice hitbox difference between killers and survivors.
Sprint burst or lithe only works between loops and not within loops, those perks will not allow survivors to loop one more time longer or reach the windows otherwise can't (while looping), and even then made for this ALSO helps for those run away purpose too.
So yeah "more effective" is objectively wrong, nor "easier to use" because all you need to do with MFT is literally just loop as usual.
all you need for 3 meter is something like 25 seconds or so of chase time which really isn't uncommon in any way
This right here is why it will never be stronger than old dead hard, or even new dead hard.
By the time the chase lasts 15 seconds, the killer gets bloodlust 1, which hard counters and overcomes the made for this bonus.
By the time you get to 25 seconds, the benefit you had from the perk before bloodlust is almost completely erased entirely.
Which, for the record, the you gain at most 1.8 meters of distance in those 15 seconds. That's cut shorter if the killer is actually good in chase and can mind game to gain even more distance than just hold w and follow survivor.
Bloodlust didn't and doesn't counter dead hard.
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@mustdogen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3454494#Comment_3454494
Jesus.
You are serious.
Someone do a similar math before in the ptb feed back.
If my memory is not wrong.
MFT gain 70% value of SB in a 24m racing.
In other words,this unexhausted perk, you only need to put down a pallet one time in chasing to re-gain the distance,it already stronger than SB.
And guess what?it is still actived, forever!
We don't even need to talk about the strongest part of it like how it would effect to looping, just talk about shift W in to pre-drop,MFT is already an op broken perk.
Either your memory is wrong, or your source is.
In a 24m race:
- SB takes 4.5 seconds (3 seconds at 6m/s, then the remaining 6m at 4 m/s)
- MfT takes 5.82 seconds (going 4.12 m/s the entire time)
- Completely perkless takes 6 seconds.
- A 110% killer takes 5.45 seconds...
MfT is far, far closer to perkless in your example than it is to Sprint burst, which is what you should expect from a 3% increase. SB or other 150% exhaustion perk is the only way to beat the killer in this scenario at all.
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This is the most recent info we have from the devs about kill rates. It's from September 2022:
@McDoobz said:
In June, we brought major changes to the game. At the time, we stated that one of the main objectives behind the meta-shifting perk overhaul and base gameplay changes was to improve the overall kill rate (how many Survivors are killed each trial, on average). As stated in our most recent stats post , we did achieve that goal and as you’ll see in the below graphs, the kill rate continues to hover around the 59% to 61% range (up from a 51% to 53% range).
In the context of this new meta, many of you have been expressing that you’d like to see where each killer’s kill rate now stands. So, we’ve compiled the most recent data to share with you.
We’ve created two charts to help you visualize and analyze these stats:
- The first chart represents the kill rate broken down by killer, for all players (all Matchmaking Ratings), for the period of September 2022.
- The second chart also represents the kill rate broken down by killer for the same period, but only for players in the top 5% MMR.
Some things to keep in mind as you consult these charts:
- We rounded up some of the kill rates to make the charts below easier to read (only values ≥ 0.95 were rounded up). Scroll past the charts for exact kill rate values for each data set.
- It’s worth noting that many factors are taken into account when it comes to balancing killer powers and character perks, not only data.
- As always, we are monitoring our overall game balance on an ongoing basis and taking your feedback into account when evaluating whether or not design changes should be made. So please keep sharing your thoughts and experiences with us! We read you daily and relay your feedback to the appropriate people on a regular basis.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/GOYEKDMA1XC3/microsoftteams-image-2873-29.png
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/QBAVCNOU4QO5/microsoftteams-image-2875-29.png
EXACT KILL RATE & PICK RATE VALUES BY MMR
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/LRXX3PMFOM90/tablekr3.png
We hope you enjoy studying these numbers as much as we do!
Until next time...
The Dead by Daylight team
Your assertion that 'only S-tier killers' break 60% is blatantly false, given that Freddy, Pig, and even Sadako have a higher percentage than most every other killer.
We also don't have stats on how much the gen kick meta boosted kill rates either, since this was published before Eruption took off to dominate the game. I believe the data they used, if taken the same time as the perk data in October, was pulled from just after the 6.1 patch, before the dust settled.
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Killers: Survivors are spending to much time on gens!
BHVR: Ok, here's a killer power they can interact with instead of doing gens.
Killers: Wait no.
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@Witchubtet said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3452399#Comment_3452399
NWTH isn’t broken. And look how they massacre the gen kicking meta just like they killed the DH meta. I went back far because personally the last year we haven’t really gotten super op perks. Yeah there was the shake up but how long did that last? Like maybe 6 months before everything settled into metas again?
I was mainly pointing out that survivors did get op perks before and we need to be careful about heading back into that direction again. Like how I believe we should be wary of the killers gen kicking and slowdown perks. Balance is key and sadly it’s constantly thrown out of whack by the introduction of perks that are new or better than most.
Not broken no, but it was meta.
I see now that the beginning of the conversation was describing the 'meta' perks, and you were trying to talk about op perks specifically. Broken isn't necessarily meta, and meta isn't necessarily broken.
Like pre 6.1 borrowed time was meta because it was a band aid fix for camping and being downed immediately on unhook, not because it was op, and arguably something like boil over can be broken even though it isn't a meta perk.
Although I would argue that the 6.1 Eruption was 100% broken with the incapacitated status.
I don't disagree with the idea of being careful with perks and perk design. But at some point they will need to make a decision about how perks stack across the board. They already have newer conditions like 'can't be used while exhausted' to try and combat stacking perk effects, but it likely won't solve the problems long term.
I'm not even opposed to the idea that players should only get the largest single value amongst all perks, so that something like movement speed is better controlled. It adds some anti synergy that would prevent edge cases. But I think this also needs to be applied globally in the game for both killers and survivor perks.
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@Witchubtet said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3452378#Comment_3452378
Do we need to bring up COH? That perk when launched broke the game with insta heals. Also killers haven’t gotten any op perks in a bit last one I can think of COB over a year ago. Didn’t survivors get a bunch of buddy perks last chapter?
So you have to go back 6 chapters to a perk that's been nerfed at least 3 times, and the most recent nerf removed it from being meta entirely?
If we're going back that far and using obsolete nerfed perks as a benchmark, then the buffs to Eruption and Overcharge in 6.1 and the addition of nowhere to hide with the knight, and call of brine with onryo (you know, the gen kick meta) were all more recent than that.
Since we're apparently counting things that have since been nerfed into oblivion.
Edit: worded it weirdly, call of brine was added with Sadako chapter, not buffed in 6.1 like it originally sounded.
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@YOURFRIEND said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3451776#Comment_3451776
Yeah! Waiting an extra 15s every single chase contingent upon not getting vacuumed into a pallet or having to break a pallet or the survivor not having a strong window to play just to counter part of one perk is totally fair and viable! What's all the complaining for????
Your chase is either over in 15s, which is nothing to complain about... Or your chase lasts more than 15s and the game literally hands you a hard counter to the perk for free, which is nothing to complain about.
I can assure you that the answer to your question of 'but, but what if I squander every advantage I have?' has nothing to do with perks.
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I've never seen so much complaining over a single perk that not only will probably have a sub 1% usage rate, but is also hard countered by base kit bloodlust 1 (5%) and nearly every single killer power in the game.
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@Sava18 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3450990#Comment_3450990
I mean I feel as though a lot of survivors got off on abusing broken things in this game. After 6.1.0 I stopped seeing the stereotypical "toxic survivor", even more so after the clicking changes on either side.
Don't get me wrong there are a lot of issues with this game still but it is overall more balanced than ever before and I guarantee you a lot of vets have dropped it because they can't mess around for 3 min every game and still win. Imagine I only went for blight flicks every single hit and still expected to 4k, that's the exact same thing.
Killers are willing to sweat, even if I don't agree with what that entails. Survivors for the most part regardless of skill level aren't really willing to sweat hard and don't really want to either. It's a difference of mentality/skill and overall entitlement.
This community is just blatantly biased and not self aware. The worst comp players have a larger ego than faker in league, the average player on either side still has a large ego.
I'm not sure where my analogy got lost here, but I never said anything about either side.
Killers also seem to frequently lament that there's more pressure now to constantly be in chase, that the game is more stressful, and games are far, far more efficient than they used to be. The single most common complaint right now is that there's no time to do anything other than play optimally, including make mistakes. Which is exactly what you said for the survivor side.
It seems to me that the current 'balanced' state of the game is just diluting it into being more optimized, which inevitably drains the fun out of it.
And to be clear, it drains the fun out of it for players in every role.
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@Xxjwaynexx said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3450942#Comment_3450942
Most vet creators have all agreed that the state of the game now is the most balanced it has ever been, i doubt they left due to balance more like they've done everything they could after 7 years, there's only so much appeal this can bring in they long of time.
Balanced doesn't necessarily mean it's fun.
Rock, paper, scissors is a perfectly balanced pvp game, but literally no one would play it for hours at a time, several days a week... It's not that fun to play.
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@Dark_Alex said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3450068#Comment_3450068
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3449833#Comment_3449833
The thing about Scavenger is that it differs from PTB in three ways:
1) it takes +1 skill (which is quite minor, but a nerf)
2) after the activation, the repair speed is reduced by 50% for something like 30-40s.
3) The perk can now be used theoretically an infinite number of times.
Number 2 sounds scary, BUT if you repair by yourself first and insert the toolbox at the end, you can spend the next 30 seconds looking for a new generator, healing, unhooking, running away or doing everything, that isn't a gen... And then with a full stack of Stake Out you come to the generator, hit the 5, restore the toolbox, insert, repeat...
Your words that the perk is not a genrush sound ridiculous now, don't they?
Well, even the Clown and the Doctor don't laugh about it.
I'm confused by this odd scenario you've constructed.
Scavenger only activates when the box is empty, so you're relying on the RNG without extra toolbox skill checks to get 5 before completing the gen.
You have to get a skill check within the last 5% or so to minimize the penalty, but still have the penalty fade 'while walking around'.
Are you doing gens in the killers terror radius this entire time? Because stakeout only has 4 stacks, so even then you still have to hit one naturally (and since I assume these 'aren't that hard to hit' then stakeout isn't necessary at all).
If you aren't in the terror radius, it takes 60 seconds of being in the TR to recharge all 4 stacks... Which is presumably not doing gens and wasting time.
In the end, your manufactured scenario boils down to: 'but, but what if someone brings a bunch of gen perks and then spends a ton of time not doing gens?'
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@humanbeing1704 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3450578#Comment_3450578
Totems are a secondary objective?
I mean noed isn’t really ran that much anymore and the only hex I see used anymore is devour hope
Dulls totems can be a trigger for a couple perks like inner healing or overzealous. But unless someone has tons of time and a paranoid fear of noed, no one just cleanses them anymore. Maybe for extra BP, but not tactically.
Hexes are clearly a secondary objective, but most killers don't see value in them. But clearly there's an incentive to go break the hex rather than gens. I get a surprising amount of value out of just devour hope. I don't run undying because it just alerts survivors that I have a danger totem out there, but I still get a surprising number of games where it's an evil surprise.
Boons used to be a good voluntary objective, but they provided a benefit to survivors and we can't have that. So now they're not even worth running except in specific cases, and you're probably better off with we'll make it or something.
But yeah, totems have always been the game's designed secondary objective since they were added. It was way more obvious in the ruin undying meta before 6.1. Even noed was more popular then.
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@humanbeing1704 said:
its The objective
just hope this is the year they actually add a secondary objective
Totems are the secondary objective, and always have been. (So are healing and unhooking, technically... And healing just got less efficient no matter how survivors do it)
Hexes aren't popular, even though a devour totem can do exactly what most killers want: the game completely stops to go hunt for that totem at 3+ stacks.
Boons were also a secondary objective.
What most people seem to mean when they say 'secondary objective' is just slowdown: 'a mandatory action other than gens that provides literally no benefit and requires no additional killer resources'.
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@fulltonon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3450167#Comment_3450167
That's just objectively wrong, game will end for 99% of times even on live server if killer somehow manages to slug all four of survs.
It doesn't encourage anything, just makes game faster and that's literally all the things it does.
There's a massive, cavernous difference between 'all four survivors slugged is a win for the killer' and 'all four survivors is hands down the objectively fastest way to end the game with a killer win every game'.
I never said that having 4 slugged survivors was anything but a killer win. I'm objecting to actively incentivizing a slugging play style because the finisher Mori they tested on the ptb could just end games instantly. Faster than tunneling and camping. Much faster than hooking.
And even if slugging 4 is 'hard' the next best thing would be to just tunnel one survivor out and slug the other 3.
If there's one thing we know about killers on this forum, is that it doesn't matter what the strategy is, if it's even possibly efficient it will be used as much as possible.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/378320/i-am-worried-about-upcoming-end-game-mori
because certain killer are purposely slugging survivors when they have won and dragging out the match. that is why they're implementing it. its not buff to slugging. it is just making the game end faster and preventing toxic behaviour. Its little bit like flashlight change where survivor would abusively spam flashlight clicking. its that type of update.
The finisher Mori they tested on the PTB absolutely, 100% encouraged slugging. There were videos, while rare or requiring certain killers to pull off, where the killer could manage to slug all 4 survivors within the first couple minutes and simply end the game with 0 hooks at 5 gens immediately.
No other method in the game would have been faster at closing out matches if that has gone live, so every game would've been a ######### fest whack-a-mole ######### show.
Even in it's 'purest' form with only 2 survivors remaining, killers would've just continued to slug for the 4k and saved on hooks while still denying hatch.
So the answer to your question is maybe. If they implemented something like the cypress Mori it *might* discourage slugging for the 4k. But most likely killers would just continue to slug to deny hatch, then hook the 3rd and Mori the last.
It all depends on what they have in mind for the reworked finisher system, but I doubt it will reduce slugging for the 4k. The only thing that will do that is a hatch rework
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@[Deleted User] said:
I dont understand why more survivors try to break a 3 gen in the beginning of the game, when there are still 4 survivors. I so often see survivors go to from gen to the next one without thinking. Like on the garden map, u always have a 3-4 gen around the main building. Yet often times exactly these are the ones, survivors wanna do last. You can play strategically as survivor too.
You kind of answer your own question here. If Skully is holding a 3 gen from the beginning of the game, there are some variables in play.
Like you mentioned, some maps already start with a 4 gen right away. If you do break the 3 gen immediately, congratulations! You get another 3 gen in the exact same spot for your troubles!
If instead, you do the other gens on the map and try to eliminate the possibility of Skully just holding the next 3 closest gens, then you want to break the 3 gen last. Which of course leads to the 'YoU dId ThIs To YoUrSeLvEs' problem.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/378394/generator-speeds-are-not-ok
I would like to know where your math comes from. Because AFAIK proof knocks off ~6s from gen. Yes. It's 7s if 2 people are working on a single gen. The thing is, that the effect it provides barely counters basekit malus for multiple survivors working on a single gen.
Going into math: both basekit malus and perk are 15%, but the base from which you count is different - to illustrate base speed is 100%. If 2 survivors work on a gen, each will get 15% malus for 85% repair speed. Now you take this new base 85% and you calculate +15% from this base - which is 0,85*1,15 = 0,9775 speed or to use percents again - you get 97,75% repair speed. Meaning that if we take gens take 90s to repair, but you have 2 people working on it, you would theoretically do it in 45s if there were no modifiers. With proof and basekit malus, it's 90s/(0,9775*2) ~= 46,0358s instead. Without proof, you get 90s/(0,85*2)=~52,9412s to repair the gen. Given the difference between these 2 numbers, proof actually shaves off little less then 7s. This presumes no great skillcheck/toolboxes/anything else is in play (because those would eat away from that bonus even a little more). Now I am really curious how you came up with 30s, because this just does not add up no matter how I try. Also as you can see even better then using proof is to split to 2 gens where you get 2 gens completed in 90s which can be averaged into 45s/gen or 100% speed (meaning you do your gen ~1s quicker AND save a perk slot).
And for scavenger - it seems you are misinformed. It was already stated, that PTB version of this perk will NOT go live. The perk got changed completely and even though it will still remain mildly useful in niche cases, it will absolutely not boost your repair speed (basically they added extra token for requirement and as the perk activates it provides huge debuff for gen repair for 30s - making it useless for genrush purposes and instead making it only good for batch-like repairs - basically only useful against 3gen camping)
Exactly this.
You also have the problem that prove requires you to group up, so getting interrupted completely stops that gen progress, where splitting up the killer can only interrupt one at a time.
It is always most efficient to split up and do gens. The only time prove should really come into play in a perfectly efficient game is on the last generator. And even then there could be times (like a 3 gen) where splitting up is still the best option even on the last gen.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3448618#Comment_3448618
This is like saying Corrupt Purge isn't 'half' of The Plague's kit, because survivors could not cleanse or Plague could not use Vile Purge.
They function in a similar way in that survivors interacting with their power provide a 'compensatory' effect to the killer. If you're playing the killer well, you're using their power, and if you're playing survivor well, you're countering and interacting with that power.
That's an interesting analogy. Though I'd equate the SM tracking to the broken status, not corrupt purge in this case.
With both killers, you want to cover objectives to get maximum benefit, ideally totems, gens, maybe even strong loops.
If survivors interact with your power in any way you get information (tracking/sickness) and if they work through your power they become broken for plague and either exposed or tracked by SM.
So you're right, in this case the survivor interaction would be the haste/corrupt purge. I guess I consider the tradeoff to be stronger for SM: the obvious choice is to allow haste rather than be exposed almost always, where with the plague it's always a very situational choice to stay broken or cleanse.
I still hesitate to call it a full 'half' of the power, but you've made a good point that the haste is a separate 'part'.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3448573#Comment_3448573
There's a pretty glaring flaw in this argument, though- that isn't her entire kit. It's half of her kit.
The other half is tracking and Haste from when survivors disable the drones, which is what makes her design actually workable if and when 3-gens are fixed. Like I said in another reply, she has a reasonable amount of variance in her kit; you can do trap drones that you chase survivors into, you can put drones in obvious areas to make more use of the Claw Traps, you hypothetically should be able to try and use the drones for stealth, you can defend totems... there's a lot you can do with her power.
I do appreciate your response, though. Even if I disagree, understanding the argument was the goal here.
I don't consider the tracking and haste to be 'half' of her kit because they only occur when survivors interact with drones or are in an active drone area.
If SM places the drones at the corner of the map, or never drops them at all, the haste and tracking can never activate. You can only gain those benefits from 'good' drone placement...
Which again, 'good' drone placement requires covering specific objectives like totems or gens. So we're back to the same map coverage problem again.
Now I do think it would be interesting to have her power do something else, like maybe a much shorter drone area, but the drone is only active for a short time, and will follow the survivor that crosses it's vision. That leans into the tracking aspect, and chase assistance, without being a lockdown ability. But even that's a decent sized overhaul/rework to her kit.
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I think a no items, no add-ons, no perks mode would be a fun, optional, limited time mode for a weekend every six months or so.
Any more than that would probably get stale or some weird meta would develop.
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Her entire kit revolves around locking down a decent sized area to prevent survivors from using that space, and she gains information about their location if they attempt to counter that or if they simply try to pass through.
At best, this ability forces a survivor to leave a loop mid chase. At worst, it can prevent an area up to 3 drones in diameter, and any area beyond that if used in a corner or in a building, from being a playable space.
No other area denial is nearly as strong, since even trapper or hag have considerably smaller activation areas, and there exists counter play to the traps that don't involve alerting the killer (crouch for hag, avoid for trapper). Skully's power is also the only one that works through floors on multi story maps, and can be activated by the killer at any time even if the survivor is being careful to avoid triggering it.
This kind of large area denial has very, very obvious implications for locking down objectives. You already know that because you don't want to acknowledge a 3 gen situation, but generators and totems are the two most glaringly obvious choices. The only thing that would be more appealing to cover would be a hooked survivor, but hooks in use are literally the only thing prevented from actively being in a drone radius.
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@Sava18 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3447502#Comment_3447502
You are completely discounting the power level between killers.
Because that's also factored into MMR.
The devs have stated that you have a separate MMR value for each killer. So if you play nurse and trapper with the same skill and play style, you'll still kill more survivors as nurse every time.
You'll end up with a higher MMR for nurse, and a lower MMR for trapper so it balances itself for 'S' vs 'D' tier killers.
If kills are all that matters, and you play to sweat as hard as possible for the 4k every game, the MMR system will give you higher skill opponents until you are being challenged again.
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3446784#Comment_3446784
I don't think getting put into your appropriate skill bracket is a "punishment". You might not be in your comfort zone but that's the point, your games should be more balanced not comfortable and easy.
If the MMR is working well at least (which its not).
However yeah if you're going to play the most efficient way then you shouldn't be complaining about the other team doing the same. Similarly if survivors are going to focus down gens they shouldn't be complaining about killers focusing down kills.
You're assuming that the killer has the game sense, chase skill, and understanding of map pressure where *switching* to tunneling can be the best play.
In that sense I'd agree that they are in the correct MMR bracket. Although, I'd also say that this killer has enough knowledge to understand what went wrong, what they could've or should've done in that situation, and how they can improve in the future.
However, there's a different kind of killer who lacks game sense and/or skill, who always uses tunneling as a powerful tool immediately. These are the killers who will win and raise their MMR by sheer brute force, but then when opponents can begin to counter this strategy, they have nothing other than 'tunneling stronk' to fall back on, and that is already failing them.
You see this second type of killer a lot on this forum: where they've boosted their MMR above their skill level because tunneling is powerful and not complicated to pull off, or even because of broken perks (Eruption), and they have no introspection or perhaps even desire to consider improving.
These are the people who, when their *only* strategy of tunneling fails them, immediately close the game and post online to rant about hopeless games and survivor nerfs, while not even considering that they could have made even one mistake.
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Literally none of the reasons people DC are being addressed. Bots aren't a solution to anything, they're a band aid.
They're potentially easily exploitable, by both sides, have zero sense of strategy or coordination (and will just feed killers 3 gens, can't wait for that), as well as being prone to any bug/stuck issue that nemesis zombies have.
It'll also make disconnects worse. People who would normally stick out a match with an early DC because they want to be a good teammate likely won't stick around either. If the bot is the officially sanctioned BHVR-approved replacement, then people will likely decide to move on to their next match early, and let the bot be the 'good teammate' instead.
Disclaimer: I don't condone or think people should disconnect from games. I'm just saying what I think human nature will do with this system if implemented.
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@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3445548#Comment_3445548
Its not true, the kill rate is nowhere near 100
Last time we had metrics, solo q was about 60% of the survivor population, and the other 40% were SWF in either 2-, 3-, or 4-man squads.
While impossible to match in the real world, it's theoretically possible for the game balance to require coordination to survive at all. BHVR could, in theory, make it nearly impossible for solo q to escape.
If solo q had a nearly 100% kill rate, and SWF has a nearly 0% kill rate, the game would still be 'balanced' according to the devs at a global 60% kill rate, for example.
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Base gen speed is the longest it's ever been since 6.1.0 increased it to 90 seconds.
It's also not perks, because the only perks that even affect gens that are new or buffed since 6.1 are overzealous (which *still* isn't mathematically worth running) and Hyperfocus (which is a pretty rare perk to be running).
What you're seeing lasting impact of the gen kick meta, which had 2 critically detrimental effects on the game in general:
Killers spent nearly 10 months with some of the strongest gen control perks this game has ever seen and drove home exactly one message in every single game: Do gens or die.
Not only that, but literally everything else in the game became marginalized during that time. Game sense? Unnecessary. Chase and mind games? Nah. For an incredible number of people, the game boiled down to: bind every key to 'break generator' and slam your face on the keyboard for up to an hour and you'll probably still win by attrition alone.
So now, post regression nerfs you have survivors who are conditioned to do gens and don't even have boons as a side objective anymore, and killers who seemingly lack object permanence or take 3 minutes to end a chase.