Update to Haste and Hindered
As we move towards the 8.7.0 release, we wanted to thank everyone for trying out the PTB and for sharing valuable feedback. We wanted to go over some notable changes you can expect.
Haste and Hindered Stacking
The community has shared a lot of valuable feedback regarding the Haste and Hindered Stacking changes as tested on the PTB. After careful consideration by the Design team, we will not be moving forward with all of the changes. We will be moving forward allowing Haste and Hindered to stack again. The perks you saw in the PTB will continue to go Live in 8.7.0 while we monitor their usage on Live servers. The exception will be Champion of Light; this will receive changes prior to release. Keep an eye out for the Patch Notes for full details!
Abandon Option Trial Outcomes
With the new Abandon option added for Killers, we’ve noticed there is some confusion around the results on different scenarios:
Killer
Scenario #1 – If all Survivors Are Bots:
- The Killer can Abandon the match without receiving a Disconnection Penalty and the match is considered a DRAW.
Scenario #2 – If the match has continued for 10 consecutive minutes without a generator being completed or regressed:
- The Killer can Abandon the match without receiving a Disconnection Penalty and the match is considered a LOSS.
DEV NOTE: Due to a bug, the endgame screen will currently show Survivors as sacrificed. This will be fixed in an upcoming Bug Fix patch.
Survivor
Scenario #1 - When all other remaining Survivors left alive in the Trial are bots:
- The last Survivor can Abandon the match without receiving a Disconnection Penalty and the match is considered a DRAW.
Scenario #2 - When all Survivors alive in a Trial are in the Dying State:
- The Survivors can Abandon the match without receiving a Disconnection Penalty and the match is considered a DRAW.
See you in The Fog!
The Dead by Daylight Team
Comments
Actually Making it so that the Survivors sacrifice when the Killer Surrenders is a good way to provent Survivors from using the killer surrendering to win. Because we want the Survivors to do the Gens and leave not hide the entire game not doing anything for 10 minutes. I think when the survivors surrender it counts as escaping to provent the killer from slugging them all
Why is every survivor being downed considered a draw, that seems like a killer win to me.
Why is killer DCing when there are only bots left on survivor side a draw? That should be a killer win.
What are these different conditions and why majority of them make NO SENCE? what the hell...
Will we still be able to see the haste and hinder percentages on the UI in the upcoming patch?
The abandon rules break one of the most important rules of MMR. If one side gains MMR, then the other side should lose MMR. And if one side loses MMR, then the other side should gain MMR.
It just doesn’t make sense that a survivor can DC and lose MMR, but then the killer abandons and doesn’t gain MMR.
It also doesn’t make sense that a survivor can abandon with a 0 MMR change, but if the killer sacrifices the replacement bot they gain MMR.
And sacrificing bots gives killer MMR, right? Otherwise, survivors can deny killers MMR by DCing or abandoning a game.
As someone who plays both Killer and Survivor, I don't have a lot to say when it comes to the Killer issues because I've thankfully never encountered any survivors who refused to do gens. However, I really don't like the "anti-slug" solution presented here.
As things stand right now, it doesn't directly reward Killers for slugging, but it doesn't punish this behavior either. There's nothing to discourage slugging -- the killer doesn't care of the survivor abandons the match, after all, it's easier to deal with their replacement bot if it comes to that. No harm, no foul.
This would be a better solution. For the following scenarios, imagine there are four survivors, Dwight, Nea, Kate and Sable.
Scenario 1: The killer first slugs Dwight, then Nea, then Kate. The moment the killer puts Sable into the dying state, Dwight immediately springs back to the injured state because he was the first survivor to be put in the dying state. Should the killer put Dwight back into dying state before he gets a chance to revive anyone else, then Nea returns to injured state because she was the next in the queue.
Scenario 2: Dwight is dead, Nea is hooked, Kate is dying. The moment the killer puts Sable into the dying state, Kate immediately springs back to the injured state. Should the killer put Kate back into the dying state before she gets a chance to revive Sable or unhook Nea, then Sable goes back to injured since she was the next living/unhooked survive in queue.
Scenario 3: Dwight and Nea are dead, Kate is hooked. The moment the killer puts Sable into the dying state, it doesn't matter because she's the only survivor on the field and the game should know enough not to automatically bring her back to injured.
Basically, there should never be a situation where all the characters on the field (not dead/not hooked) are in the dying state, and the moment that all the characters are put into the dying state, whoever was dying the longest (current first in queue), returns to injured to give them a chance to unhook or revive the others.
I feel like this is the best deterrent to stopping slugging if the game literally will not allow all characters to be slugged at once.
I hope so, that was a very welcome change
I think there are some issues with the abandon system.
Killer:
For the killer's first scenario where every survivor in the trial is a bot, I think that this should count as a Win, but a Draw is fine.
However, I think that for the second scenario, the design is inherently flawed. If no gen has been done for 10 minutes because the survivors are hiding/holding the killer hostage by not progressing the game, that should be discouraged and count as a Draw or Win for the killer. However, if those 10 minutes are because the killer is 3 genning to meet the time limit against a solo team I think that should be discouraged as well and count as a Draw or Loss for the killer. I think that this system should be adjusted entirely to:
I feel that this would be better than a generator being completed because it removes the 3 gen scenario, and exclusively targets the refusal to progress the game.
Survivor:
For the survivor's first scenario where every other survivor is a bot I agree it should be a Draw.
However, if all survivors in the trial are in the dying state for the second scenario why on earth does this count as a draw. The last survivor alive can abandon every time and it will never count as a loss. This should be counted as a Loss for survivor.
Looking at scenario 1 again for both roles actually makes sense now when u think in the way where ur teammates leave/dc beginning or mid game so now it’s just u, bots and the killer. U should have every right to leave as well and count as a draw since u have no real teammates. It should also counts as a draw too for the killer cuz its not fun playing against just bots nor should they be allowed to get any rewards farming bots while bullying the only real survivor. It gets to the point where u let the killer and take a loss u don’t deserve cuz ur teammates are gone, leave the game and take a loss while receiving matchmaking penalty, stay and make no real progress cuz ur bots are slugged or completely ignored since its just you they need to kill or hope the killer is nice enough to realize that you had no chance winning from the beginning cuz of the lack of real teammates and let u have that win. This is really the only way I can think of that actually makes sense of scenario 1.
It's not a big deal anyway. But I wonder if they're going forward with the buffed Dark Theory and Unbound then.
Yeah, the new rarity colors are just 💀🤮
If all survivors are bots, why would the killer get a draw instead of a win?
Trying to manipulate your MMR is a terrible idea. Dying against a camping/slugging/whatever Killer is good for Survivors - their MMR shifts down, the Killer MMR shifts up, it becomes less likely to be matched up with the same Killer again.
Assuming the matchmaking works properly:
In every other case you should eventually rise/drop to some suitable level.
There is no reason to care about your MMR and trying to manipulate it is only going to hurt you.
So once again the developers bend the knee to the worst parts of the community toxic survivors. Now you do not have to do gens. You can literally join a match do nothing and BHVR will reward you. None of this makes sense... period. All survivors down ( dead ) they can leave and avoid a loss. Survivors refuse to do their objective and avoid a loss. So the only way to actually lose now as survivor is by playing the game... Worse devs ever. Absolute incompetence
A draw for abandoning against bots in a PvP game is very strange. So it is for abandoning as survivor in a losing match.
So if 1 survivor repairs a generator for 5 seconds, once every 5 minutes, the survivors can hold the game hostage?
There needs to be a judgment call if the survivors to honestly trying to repair generators, or if they’re repairing for tiny amounts of time, and then the excessively hiding until it’s safe again to repair.
Because of the survivor team strategy is to drag the game another 30 minutes so they can eventually reach the gen kick limit, then that’s bad, and shouldn’t be rewarded.
So I downed all Survivors/hooked whole team, I won, right?
No.
So Survivors refusing to do their objectives and just are sitting ducks for 10 min, so its draw right since nobody progress anywhere and its stalemate right?
No.
So everyone left and I don't want to waste time fighting ezi bots, someone rage quiets so I win right?
Hell no.
Makes. Sence.
Because you didn't win, you conceded. You can still get a win if you want to. Just kill the bots.
The abandon mechanic is just there so you don't have to bother.
And you end up with 4man flashlight squad all running together. You can't hook anyone, since at any given moment one auto-picked up survivor can blind you. They can literally do gens in your face and you won't be able to do anything
They can't humiliate bots so it's not fun.
Am I the only one who thinks champion of light together with fixated giving you a little speed boost would be funny and worth trying?
You could always do this. The only difference now is that you can avoid the disconnect penalty (and MMR loss, if you care about that). A Survivor who is willing to do that to themselves is likely not going to care about the disconnect penalty. And holding the game hostage is against the rules, just report them and they will be banned if they do it often enough (unless it is a permanent ban the first time you do it, in which case that behavior can be stopped even faster).
Well, time to take a break from the game, I guess. The new perk going live servers with haste stacking is absolutely unacceptable, you don't need any testing to know it.
There needs to be actual in game solutions for survivors holding the game hostage. Placing tickets, that need to be manually reviewed, isn’t a good solution.
It would have been awesome if the anti hiding stuff could have been implemented already, instead of waiting until the last possible moment of phase 1.
you end up with ~4.6m/s. That would be busted (edit: typo)
I still don't think survivors should win or draw if they are ratting around for 10 minutes. It should be a loss for them, 100% as they failed to do their objective. Can't you guys just add another condition to the abandon feature so it's less abusable? Make it so that the timer for killer abandoning the match is stalled by doing gens OR by starting a chase? That way if the killer just stands around not chasing anyone, survivors can do the gens to keep the abandon option from appearing. Meanwhile, if the killer is actively chasing people off of gens because survivors are at least TRYING to get a gen done, it will also not trigger the abandon feature.
Also, taking away the haste stacking was a healthy choice and I'm sad to see you guys going back on it.
I've been saying since the dawn of time that bleeding out survivors doesn't count as a kill and is a draw for survivors. This like everything else in the game is evidence of that being true.
Wait I thought MMR isn’t affected to “abandons”?
At least that’s what I “thought” Mandy had said recently. That it was a separate matter.
I am so confused.
I would love some details. What is actually happening in all of this.
NO, giving up is losing, not a draw. And what's that about survivors not losing anything if they steal the match from the killer for 10 minutes? Nah, I'm not buying ANYTHING else in this game until they fix that. I'll spend my money on something else.
Why are you like this, Behaviour? Always nerfing killers because survivors can't adapt (and while you're at it, you humiliate the ones who did adapt and are actually skilled, rewarding mediocrity instead of ENCOURAGING players to improve). It's always against killers—no more 3-gen like before because of the whining over Skull Merchant, no more camping or tunneling soon either, but survivor toxicity (t-bagging during chase or at the exit, emotes, flashlight spam) is totally fine? You want to lose your killer player base? Fine. I'm done spending money until this game becomes FAIR. This is ridiculous. And now you're going to nerf Pentimento so survivors can see the aura? Nah. I'm out.
The new abandon feature is even worse than I previously thought….
If a killer hooks the 3rd survivor, and knocks the 4th survivor to the ground, then the 3rd AND 4th survivor can abandon and get a draw. This also means the 4th survivor can just run straight to the killer, because if the killer knock them to the ground while the 3rd survivor is still alive, they both get a draw.
Just imagine that whenever a SWF is losing, they all just run straight for the killer, because unless the killer wastes a bunch of time to kill them one at a time, then it’s likely that multiple survivors will be able to get an abandon draw.
It would definitely shake up the meta and bring some never seen perks to the top. Overwhelming presence and franklins would become top tier perks, which would be funny. It would probably be okay because flashlights have a limited duration even tho it would be quite annoying. Regardless they should test this. Just for fun.
One thing to add as I can see people talking about the win / lose / draw conditions, please know this is match outcome and not what happens with MMR which is much more conditional.
The new perk is too strong with and without haste stacking. Haste stacking doesn‘t change a thing about that. I just hope it isn’t too punishing for the weaker killers. Non the less they should let it go live for a few weeks and give it a fair nerf. I want to see other perks in my matches than the usual ones. The game desperately needs meta shake ups and some fresh air.
survivors not completing their objective but the killer is tired and decides to leave = loss
killer gets stomped and can't leave because survivors enjoy the bullying = loss and penalty
So less fun games and more ultra competitive decisions in every game no mercy.
What are you even talking about? I never said anything about auto-pickups. Besides, that wouldn't happen if you were smart like me and always use Lightborn.
Ok these abandon scenarious are really unfair for the killer.
If survivors aren't doing anything but hiding in corners or in lockers why is it a loss for the killer? That seems really messed up and backwards.
If killer manages to do their job and actually win the game, but survivors are unhappy and can't wait and DC, its a draw? Again really messed up.
Haste stacking… I don't want to be gloom and doom thinker but the new perk Duty of Care + Hope in endgame. Goodluck catching anyone killers. I for sure will be running these 2 perks together.
Will haste/hinder stacking be revisited in the future?
I understood the intent behind the change, it just feels very confusing trying to figure out which movement speed modifiers actually count as haste and hinder effects. (For example, is Billy revving his chainsaw considered a hinder effect? Is Billy's sprint or Blight's rush considered haste? What about Blight's rush speed add-ons? Why does Singularity have regular haste while in Overclock instead of a movement speed modifier? I could go on but I think you get the point.)
I have some thoughts as both a SURV and Killer player, as a new player about a month into the game.
The 10 minutes no gen condition needs to be considered more like an "emergency exit button" than a "draw, loss, or win". It should be available to both killer and SURVs and make it so you don't lose items or addons but gain nothing from the match, as if you never played it in the first place. I would consider the match similar to the ones where players are actively cheating and preventing you from playing the game normally and achieving any goals (think Killer that downs players before they've even completed loading cutscenes, SURVs who speed/fly around the map and are uncatchable). This is a scenario where if you are either Killer or SURV, you just want out. No BP, no XP, no gains in that match could make you stay there any longer than you have to. No one wants to play a match where they can't do a gen in over ten minutes. No one wants to play a match where they can't find survivors who aren't completing objectives in over then minutes. No one wants to play a match where mechanics are being abused against you and you lose everything important for a match that wasn't even "a real game". This is why I think making this scenario a loss is not the best option, nor is keeping anything you would gain (or losing anything you'd lose) from a match like this. You didn't actually play a "real game" of DBD as it was intended to play, so those rewards and loses aren't real.
I'm not going to be the party clown killer so they can sell a new DLC, thats for sure. It is clear that this whole stacking removal thing was created solely to justify this perk, so having both is already a bit of a stretch.
Why does abandoning a trial because the survivors took the game hostage be considered a draw, but leaving after all your team has been downed be considered a draw? That makes no sense.
I'm very disappointed to see haste/hinder stacking staying in the game. I hope we get to see some sort of system that attempts to do something of note against this unhealthy play style in the game. It would have also been nice so we can have haste perks be a bit stronger without fear of stacking making them way too unhealthy.
If I understand your post correctly you are saying that Win / Lose / Draw does not DIRECTLY translate to MMR changes. There may be some connection, but to me it sounds like it isn't the main effect / focus of the Win / Lose / Draw outcomes.
What does Win / Lose / Draw mean in this context? What does each outcome do / what is this main effect?
(Assuming I understood your post correctly)
I‘m not a fan of releasing something super strong and nerfing it into the ground to get more sales, but I‘m fine with them releasing something super strong and nerfing it so it is reasonable strong.
I‘m just happy behavior finally releases something strong again. We didn‘t have a single perk that shook up the meta since MFT. We desperately need the devs to try out more potentially controversial things.
Are we allowed to know how the abandon feature interacts with MMR? I honestly don’t care what the end game screen says. I just want to do whatever raises my MMR the most, so I have the maximum chances of getting matched with quality opponents.
I play DBD as if this was a competitive game, and I owe it to my opponents to try to be at my correct MMR. If I’m unknowingly lowering my MMR, that isn’t fair to my opponents.
Isn‘t that something good when they listen to the community? In my eyes it is.
you understood correctly, the outcome is not the decisive factor for MMR, which is a more complex alogorithm in this case and takes other things into account.
I will say what we've always said about MMR which is: play your game without worrying about a hidden number which is purely there for matchmaking purposes.
My baby bill unhook build is safe!
Yellow is still my favourite colour :(
I am genuinely curious as to what the thought process was behind making the second scenario a LOSS of all things, especially considering this could easily be argued to be the most straightforward DRAW condition. On top of that, the first killer scenario should absolutely be considered a WIN for the killer if all survivors DCed. Why stick out the match with 4 bots over just giving the win? I can definitely get behind the other 2 survivor scenarios being DRAWS though, some killers play to 4-man slug and bleed out and that absolutely should not be a LOSS for the survivors.
They're fine, they just need to make a symvol of sorts to signify to color blind people what rarity the cosmetic or item is. Similarly to Marvel Rivals woth the pentagon displaying more filled in 5ths