Update to Haste and Hindered
As we move towards the 8.7.0 release, we wanted to thank everyone for trying out the PTB and for sharing valuable feedback. We wanted to go over some notable changes you can expect.
Haste and Hindered Stacking
The community has shared a lot of valuable feedback regarding the Haste and Hindered Stacking changes as tested on the PTB. After careful consideration by the Design team, we will not be moving forward with all of the changes. We will be moving forward allowing Haste and Hindered to stack again. The perks you saw in the PTB will continue to go Live in 8.7.0 while we monitor their usage on Live servers. The exception will be Champion of Light; this will receive changes prior to release. Keep an eye out for the Patch Notes for full details!
Abandon Option Trial Outcomes
With the new Abandon option added for Killers, we’ve noticed there is some confusion around the results on different scenarios:
Killer
Scenario #1 – If all Survivors Are Bots:
- The Killer can Abandon the match without receiving a Disconnection Penalty and the match is considered a DRAW.
Scenario #2 – If the match has continued for 10 consecutive minutes without a generator being completed or regressed:
- The Killer can Abandon the match without receiving a Disconnection Penalty and the match is considered a LOSS.
DEV NOTE: Due to a bug, the endgame screen will currently show Survivors as sacrificed. This will be fixed in an upcoming Bug Fix patch.
Survivor
Scenario #1 - When all other remaining Survivors left alive in the Trial are bots:
- The last Survivor can Abandon the match without receiving a Disconnection Penalty and the match is considered a DRAW.
Scenario #2 - When all Survivors alive in a Trial are in the Dying State:
- The Survivors can Abandon the match without receiving a Disconnection Penalty and the match is considered a DRAW.
See you in The Fog!
The Dead by Daylight Team
Comments
The illusion of listening is different than actually listening. Listening to the very loud casual audience is also a big problem as casual players don't even play the game to it's max potential. If they actually listened to "reasonable" community feedback, the game would've been based on hooks instead of kills for awhile now.. Casual players are of course the majority of most games, but being casual comes with the undeniable truth of not being able to reach the pinnacle of what is possible in the games ecosystem.
If I had my way, I'd have people like Otzdarva and Tru3ta1ent working together with the developers on every decision from loop design and maps to Killer powers and Survivor counter play to those powers. I'd wager those 2 individuals know more about AND are better at anything and everything DBD than any developer that has ever worked on it. You'd start seeing map, loop, Killer power design, and everything be a lot better if the developers actually asked professional DBD players to help them with decisions behind closed doors, because we wouldn't continue to get the same mentalities working on the same exact projects.
Get different points of view in the damn dev team. The people that are there clearly don't get a LOT when it comes to design. I'm sure someone like Otzdarva would do it FOR FREE.. It's that pride. Some companies just can't swallow that pride and thought of "well, we have people who we pay to do that" BS.. They aren't doing it good enough, so get help somewhere else.. -_-
This new abandon feature is going to murder my Survivor MMR even more (Make it stay in place when it should go down when I lose) I get abandons really often, but I stayed in the match until the end coz I thought that's the only way I got match exp (misunderstood match progress that pops up). I basically play against Blight/Nurse/Kaneki loads as it is, and in a lot of those matches they do slug.
I just want to enjoy this game casually but if the MMR system just isn't going to work fairly, I think at this point it needs to go, of course I don't know what my mmr is but if I lose or the killer wins, they should change score accordingly.
The abandon feature causes more problems in the long term, and now I feel reluctant to use it, not to mention if another survivor uses it in solo Q I'm probably also forced into a draw. What's the point of this?
As for @Mandy what you just said, I'm sorry, I just want to play the game casually and I keep getting S-Tiers, I may not know my numbers but I would very much like to enjoy the game again, but even if I lose often there is a "safety net" that stops you dropping quickly anyways, not that I'm throwing my matches but I've seen that mentioned.
Your MMR sounds like at this rate it's only going to climb people if they play often. Maybe I'm wrong, but it sounds that way
And how about... just... leaving them, as they were before? Not fixing what is not broken?
locker hopping is now a win condition.
The last person left in the trial can literally never lose, so this also encourages locker hopping and holding the game hostage.
Slugging, and then immediately hooking everyone is also not a win?
Abandoning a match as a survivor should always count as a loss, because they are either in a no win situation, or because they are deliberately holding the game hostage. Why should either be rewarded?
I'm just going to bring four stealth perks every match and try to hide until the timer is up, no joke. EVERY survivor match I'm in solo q I will do this, and I really do hope everyone else does as well so BHVR can see what a terrible idea this was.
Except we all seem to be even more confused now than before this post that was meant to clarify things.
If it's not related to MMR, what does BHVR mean by win / loss / draw? Because in the past BHVR avoided using those terms unless they related to MMR, so I don't think we have any idea what is meant by them.
The abandon game is a great idea that many people have been clamoring for for a long time; I don't understand why these layers of complexity are being added to what should be a simple design.
It shouldn't be so hard / complicated.
If survivors abandon the match they lose and the killer wins. I play more survivor than I do killer and I don't want a draw. I lost, its fine, I just want to move on.
The only tricky issue is the the no gen's getting touched, but many people have proposed solutions to that.
Edit to add: Let me try to simplify what I think it should be / potentially what it is
If the survivor abandons the match, it is treated as if the survivor died in that moment (which seems to be true for everything on your chart)
If the killer abandons the match, it is treated as if the match ended and all remaining bots died except that the killer doesn't get the BP for sacrificing them
In the above you now escape all the difficulties and confusion over win/loss/draw.
Again, no gens being finished needs more clarity
Nice on the hindered/haste revert BUT Bhvr how out of touch are y'all that you are gonna give survs all draw conditions even in clear losses? yet killer can lose when scenario #2 is more likely due to hackers than survs hiding
i'm talking about your example, where "if all 4 survivors slugged, the first downed survivor gets immediately picked up"
Scenario 1: The killer first slugs Dwight, then Nea, then Kate.The moment the killer puts Sable into the dying state, Dwight immediately springs back to the injured state because he was the first survivor to be put in the dying state. Should the killer put Dwight back into dying state before he gets a chance to revive anyone else, then Nea returns to injured state because she was the next in the queue.
I’m doing these things specifically for matchmaking purposes.
I purposely want the highest ranked matchmaking I can get. I don’t want the easy matches. It’s boring if I get a 4k at 5 gens.
People here care way too much about having Wins validated. If you Abandon a match no matter what excuse it shouldn't be a "Win" or a "Loss." If BHVR makes the Abandon system complex for the sake of Win validation, then we get exploits.
So I might be the odd one out but I think the abandon system as described above makes sense and should stay as it is.
Most of the conditions resulting in a draw is fine. It's very no harm no fowl. No movement in MMR, no going down or up on a system that is meant to allow people a way out from obnoxious situations like four man slugging bleed outs.
Under no uncertain terms should any abandon option ever be considered a win. That incentivizes that scenario, especially the 10 minutes of no completion or regression abandon for the killer. Killers should not be rewarded for bringing the game to a grinding halt for protecting a 3 gen in the end game.
I know some will say; but the survivors could just hide and the killer can't do anything then.
To that I say; 1) You can go looking for them and abandon the three gen.
Also 2) The new anti extreme hiding mechanics that are coming soon will answer this call. A single crow will alert the killer to a survivor's location and it read like they would make getting a crow easier so no more item drop and pick up to avoid crows. At least I hope so.
With that in place, survivors won't be able to hide for ten minutes straight so you will be able to find them and continue to apply pressure as killer.
This system is fine as it is. Please don't change it or make it overly complicated. It should be simple like it is now.
Lastly, I was looking forward to hinder and haste not stacking anymore. I think it should be an idea that you come back to. It will free up perk design possibilities with haste and hinder without the fear of unintended interactions for either side. Please reconsider this for the future.
Have to say, I honestly don't see see this abandon thing lasting long. I'm fine with killer having the option to abandon because they have the choice in the matter... Use abandon or keep the match going....take the loss or go for the win. But as others have pointed out the last survivor will never get a loss because the second they are down they abandon before the killer can hook/Mori them and get a draw instead of a loss. It will probably take time for bhvr to realize this but eventually the penny will drop.
Read it again. Slowly if you have to. I did not say he gets picked up, I said the first slugged survivor immediately springs back to injured state. Here, let me drop it down a few reading levels for you.
Survivors exist in several states. Healthy is when they have not taken any damage. Injured is when they have taken one hit and are still able to run around, but they are bleeding and make noise. Dying is is when they are laying on the ground and all they can do is crawl. With me so far?
Once the killer has hit three of the survivors twice and put them each in the dying state, and he has refused to pick any of them up to hook them, the moment he puts the fourth survivor into the dying state, then whichever survivor was slugged first will automatically return to the injured state. It means they immediately get one health state back, stand up and can move around again, to try to heal their slugged friends, etc.
Do you understand it now?
My biggest concern is that there might be some assumption that if all remaining survivors are slugged, the killer "must" be playing toxic and should be punished, but the game strongly encourages this to happen regularly. For example, let's say 2 survivors have been eliminated and there's two survivors left. All one survivor has to do is go down at a pallet. The killer by the game's design is simply not allowed to pick that survivor up since the other survivor could just pallet save (or flashlight save). This means the killer's only option is to go for the survivor nearby waiting to save. The moment that survivor drops, both survivors disconnect and the game is a draw? The killer is clearly winning here with 2 survivors out, but now the killer has a choice to either pick up the downed survivor at pallet which WILL be a pallet save, and both survivors are back up and running, OR the killer goes for the person waiting to pallet save…but if he does so, the game is a draw? This gives the killer no winning situation in a scenario where he's clearly winning. It doesn't make any sense.
Here's an actual match scenario that happened just recently. This should timecode skip to the end of a match.
https://youtu.be/XRY7Rg2gUjo?si=vTKt4r1JxtH7-23r&t=10381 Survivor has already been sacrificed
1 Survivor goes down at a pallet.
1 Survivor is hiding nearby to jump out and flashlight save or pallet save his buddy if he crawls fast enough.
1 Survivor is working on the last gen which is at around 85%.
I down the survivor, but of course he has his buddy nearby with a flashlight to get a flashlight save. There's no wall here, so no way to be "immune" to a flash save. Regardless, he's also at a pallet. I'm aware that another survivor is hiding nearby to do the flashlight or pallet save, so the game literally does not allow me to pick up the survivor, so the only option is to try to down the "flashlight\pallet saver". I down this other survivor. The last generator is at 90% at this point. If I take the time to pick up the survivor I just downed, by the time I'd hook, the last gen would be finished. This risks adrenaline being used by the pallet downed survivor (and otherwise, power struggle with flipflop). This means all gens are completed, and I have 2 survivors active who can just heal up and go for an easy hook rescue for a 3 man out - survivor victory. Due to this, the only viable option is to keep the pallet downed survivor slugged, slug the pallet saver survivor hiding nearby, and chase the last survivor that's working on the last gen nearby that's at 90%. By going for that 3rd survivor, I eliminate the risk of adrenaline entirely, and the only way I'd lose is anyone happened to have Unbreakable. However, the MOMENT the third survivor gets downed, all 3 immediately abandon….so in this case the game would be considered a draw? How is this remotely considered an acceptable outcome considering the cirumstances? There's so many reasons DBD can discourage killers from hooking.
Because the new colors look really nice and each cosmetic features clear distinction between whats unique
Also BHVR should never say what is a Win using Abandoning or that would be advocating exploits for a Win and changing how people should play the game outside of normal Gameplay to Win.
I would say yes it does matter what the outcome is for the survivor because if I'm playing survivor and 2 of my team mates are eliminated with 2 or 3 gens left... I could potentially follow my team mate around and when the killer downs them I allow myself to be downed too so I can abandon and get a draw instead of a loss. Why would I lose when I can settle for a draw?
If you mean the new Legendary looks and the new descriptions, then yes, thoes were a really good feature.
But why the hell did they make Rare things blue and Uncommon things green? It's just so backwards.
Plot twist would be the new meta. Everyone just plot twists against a killer they dont want to face and instantly can claim a draw within the first few seconds of the game, ha.
Heck, could use it any time in the match. Match not going your way? Everyone plot twist for a draw and move onto next match.
There could be a phycological factor with the new rarity system colors being just like Fortnites, atm the most popular game in the world, despite its massive changes since release that personally doesn't make it fun anymore for me. If you're familiar with other game's rarity color schemes, than this makes dbd easier to understand indirectly. Other then that the new colors just look more vibrant and visually appealing
Who the hell comes up with these? Throwing yourself at the killer = draw? Ragebait material.
Seems like it would make more sense to avoid terminology like Win, Loss or Draw, since it doesn't affect MMR and is therefore completely meaningless anyway.
Just call it Abandoned instead.
This really isn't the issue people are making it out to be.
They are already doing this by giving survivors the ability to draw instead of lose. I know one thing, if I'm survivor and I have the option to settle for a draw instead of loss I'm going for the draw. No different to having a choice of win or lose... I will always pick the better outcome win, lose or draw.
in what universe is leaving the match after the killer has won but before he kills you a draw?
I think that's the point, it doesn't effect MMR. Losing does effect MMR so why would people take a loss when they can effectively have MMR not effected at all? Simple choice. When downed are survivors going to wait out being sacrificed on hook and lose MMR or will they abandon the second they are down to prevent MMR being dropped. Play the game long enough and people will find they are gaining MMR bit by bit but never going down due to abandon.
Bhvr has already stated that Plot Twist will not trigger the abandon prompt.
The real question here is how do they implement this feature without making it beneficial for survivors to hide for 10 minutes and get a draw while also making it not beneficial for killers to simply camp a 3 gen just to force an abandon so they can win? Also how to implement this so that 4 man slugs aren’t beneficial for the killers.
I feel like those are the things they’re trying to prevent but struggling to balance here. I do want to point out tho that survivors can’t force an abandon after no gens for 10 minutes.
The killer still has to choose the abandon option if they want to, it’s not instant. So what if the killer doesn’t abandon? Then survivors who try to cheese this are stuck hiding in a match for no reason and wasting their own time and will eventually be found.
That's great that we're getting the stacking back, I am beyond thrilled, especially since we're still getting the much needed perk buffs, but it is beyond concerning that reverting the rarity changes wasn't mentioned… at all. They are going to revert right… right!
I'll be honest, this feels really counter to almost every discussion from the devs about the game.
I may have missed it elsewhere but the only time I've ever seen talk of a "draw" is for MMR purposes (hatch is an MMR draw). And the devs always, always stick to talking about either kills or escapes.
So now framing the surrender feature as win/loss/draw feels counter to every other balance discussion we've ever had. The community generally talks about winning/losing, but the devs avoid taking about win conditions.
So is that changing? Is there an official "win" now? Or is this just in terms of MMR, in which case why tell us at all? The whole point of this system being invisible is partially to prevent people from manipulating it for easier games, so even saying "if you surrender in these circumstances, you can turn a match into a draw or loss, even if you hard won the game.
Thank goodness they caught that, at least.
You can do that, and I understand why. But it's pointless because even with 42069 MMR, you're going to be paired against the Potato Leagues, so sweating or 8 hooking is pointless because you're going to get tryhard/silly matches no matter what you do.
A true, skill based mmr matchmaking was tried and it made queues too long for fringe cases.
Abandon after 10min gives survivors a reason to hide it out avoiding gens hoping the killer gets bored and abandons. It's certainly not punishing survivors for avoiding the objective. If the killer doesn't abandon then it's like it was before, survivors hide hoping 1 is caught first so last can get the hatch (possibly up to an hour). This doesn't seem to be much issues as survivors can't force the killer to give them a win, lose or draw.
But the issue is when survivors are downed, they instantly abandon before they are sacrificed. This prevents survivors MMR dropping accordingly (remains same as it's a draw). This means the last survivor will never drop MMR, never lose and also survivors could intentionally get downed to prevent a loss and settle for a draw.
Simple solution is make abandon count as loss for whoever uses it. If it's a loss for a killer to abandon them it should be a loss for the survivors that abandon not draw. At the very least, make it so abandon option has a time limit before it can be used so people can't abandon instantly before the killer can hook to get the sacrifice.
Im assuming the whole win/loss/draw is just a misnomer for MMR adjustments. Actual wins/loses have zero ties to MMR adjustments with how MMR systems work - MMR systems don't care about wins or loses, they only care about making future matches more fair. Thats why some games can even have wins count as MMR neutral and such. However, in DBD, they just happen to count a non hatch win as positive, but a hatch win as neutral despite still winning.
Long story short, I believe this whole conversation can be cleared up if they explain that by winning/losing/drawing, they don't mean it's a literal win/loss/draw but merely how the MMR will adjust.
That essentially means if all survivors are slugged and they disconnect, the killer won, but it treats the match as MMR neutral, so they say it's a draw when what they really mean is that it's MMR neutral.
The killers can lose the match because survivors are holding game hostage.
BHVR still isn't make good decisions.
That's the point tho, having it as neutral MMR means over time people will be in MMR brackets they really shouldn't be in. If last survivor gets hooked and sacrificed they should lose MMR which should over time put them in a MMR bracket nearer to their skill level. If survivors abandon the second they are downed preventing this MMR loss then the MMR results won't be accurate. Winning matches gains MMR.... losing matches stays the same essentially.
People already complain about how MMR is awful, try adding inaccurate MMR results to it and it will get much worse.
I think this is right, I don't know why they are approaching their communication on this issue like this at all.
A good sign of the problem: based on the thread title the big reveal was supposed to be about haste/hinder. Barely anyone is discussing that because we're all confused about the Abandon system.
Would love a buff for brutal srenght to 25%.
No argument from me. I'm just saying I think this has nothing to do with actual wins/losses/draws but instead is a conversation about MMR adjustment results.
That probably is the case, I'm just happy this is finally being discussed as much as it is because I saw this coming long ago but it seems things only started being noticed when the hens video was brought up. Crazy that content creators can point out these flaws by abusing things but if I admit to doing the same thing in the forums I'm at risk from being banned for "promoting unsportsmanlike gameplay" 😂
Killers have to slug for the 4k so punishing the killer for wanting the 4k is baffeling, and very unfair. Not only are you punishing the killer for no reason other than them wanting to fully complete their objective but you are rewarding survivor for losing the game by letting them grief the killer into a draw they didnt earn.
My goal is to maximize the percentage of quality games. Therefore, I'm not going to say "if I can't reach 100% quality games, then I might as well not try at all".
Trying to keep my MMR as high as possible might result in a higher percentage of quality games, than if I just played for convenience, so I will do this. BHVR refuses to give us details, so I must always jump to the worst conclusions….
"While we ultimately plan on retiring The Compendium, we still want those older challenges to stick around for a while."
Don't you dare :'''(
I set out to complete all the books, don't you dare just take that away.
The new Quest system is generic enough to keep players from actually being invested.
Don't take away the tomes, they were the most brilliant idea of how to implement quests in an interesting way.
Wow the abandon system ended up being a total failure under the hood huh.If anything it's the communication surrounding MMR that's a total failure. Why are we even getting stats about MMR bracket kill/pick rates if the intention remains to keep MMR as unknown as humanly possible to the broader public? I'm not even someone who particularly cares about the invisible number but the circumstances surrounding the official communication about it are less than desirable. Like at least just give people the number upfront at this point. It's the least they deserve.
That essentially means if all survivors are slugged and they disconnect, the killer won, but it treats the match as MMR neutral, so they say it's a draw when what they really mean is that it's MMR neutral.Maybe, but this seems to be the opposite of what Mandy said earlier in the thread.
Everything else is kind of overshadowing it, but I agree with you. The tomes were a nice background challenge to complete things and slowly unlock the lore if a player cared about it.
For the last person it sounds like it. But you still get the 3k for killing the other survivors, so it's a win for the killer.
If you've killed the other 3 survivors then your MMR should increase as you still got a 3k so it's a win against those survivors. Apparently for MMR purposes its 1v1v1v1v1.
Sounds like this draw thing will only be a hindrance to those who have slugged everyone for the 4k.
Exactly as i understood this
Guess what that injured survivor can do? That's right, he can flashlight save
You down him? Cool, now the second slugged survivor goes to the injured state. Oh look, he also has a flashlight
Do you see where this is going?
Just catering to one side and not interested in balancing of the game anymore?
Even before one of your biggest anniversaries you’ll ever have to gain a mass new audience being Fnaf.
Poor show,
Yes let’s keep survivor mains new and old abusing haste and second chance perks, Insta Heals.
“So they become reliant on them, And never learn to loop or mindgame or sneak, Basically strategy”
So this one sided power balance keeps going.
We know survivors have the power of the game for ages now.
I thought this was meant to be an horror game.
it’s 4 vs 1 behaviour wake up,
Insta heals, Map offerings, Second chance perks which every 4 man team on coms have each.
Plus healing speeds and gen speeds are mad fast, as well boons!
killers are meant to have an very slight edge, it’s 1 vs 4.
But you keep making bad decisions.
I’ve been playing for 5+ years both sides and this is sad your taking this approach.
Yes let’s keep ruining the game with these toxic habits, Plus the mass influx of survivors hackers too.
Balance the game and bring back the horror aspect back.
This stacking haste should not be allowed period.
Not necessarily. There are scenarios like the 3rd survivor being on hook, the 4th survivor getting knocked to the ground, and 1 second later the 3rd and 4th survivors abandon the game. Realistically, the killer won against all 4 survivors at this point, but if the killer now abandons the game, it might turn the entire game into a draw, or it might change just those two survivors into a draw. We don't know which is which, and we can't assume one choice is more likely than the other.
And in my scenario, zero survivors were slugged for the 4k, but the abandon button is INSTANTLY available to survivors if all the survivors are in the dying state, so they get to abandon even if zero prolonged slugging happened.
If I hook all survivor bots who abandon match it will be win to me?
Survivors who abandon match = draw
Killer who didn't abandon and hooked all bots = win?