TripleStryke
TripleStryke
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Most of these changes are good/fine. I do wish some anti-heal perks got changed though.
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@Balrog said:
Jason is coming. Learn more on our PTB to Live Blogpost to see what changes you can expect when he enters the Fog.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/kb/articles/549-ptb-to-live-changes-the-slasher
It doesn't feel like there is a point of giving feedback on killer perks when pretty much everyone said that all 3 were underwhelming (not worth running), and only one received changes. Silent Shadow is fine I guess, but you already know where the killer is coming from, and the other 2 perks are extremely underwhelming.
Hex: Scared to Death does not need to be a Hex. If the effect is too strong the hindered duration could be reduced, but having a perk that has to be earned, also be removeable is just DOA. Scared to death makes survivors lose 1.56 meters of distance over the 3s of hinder: (4*3)-(4)(0.87)(3) = 1.56. Brutal Strength ALSO makes survivors lose 1.56 meters of distance because the killer is locked in place for less time: (2.34-2.34/1.2)*4 = 1.56. Obviously killers like the Singularity exist, and there is a stacking potential, but this perk has to be earned and deserves to be useable by either removing the Hex, or making it stronger.
Rampage is just terrible. By the time this perk gets noticeable, survivors are just going to pre-drop to deny value, and there is really not any punishment for that. It could honestly be progressively higher haste on basic pallet breaks (remove wall token gain), but the value would obviously need to be reduced to 0.5%→6.5% instead of 1%→13%. If not this then something needs to be done to make it worth running. -
@ReverseVelocity said:
Break pallet and instantly catch up killer #500 would not be more fun for both sides.
Being able to use her inability to break pallets in Head Form is an important part of her counterplay.
Break pallet and catch up wouldn't be her power because she can play around many tiles. If you were just breaking every pallet that wouldn't be the best way to play her and wouldn't be very strong because that allows people more time to go for body-blocks and such. She actually has a lot of chase interactivity playing for the stun and I think the macro interaction with body-blocks is the most important part of her identity. Without a perk, outside of god pallets without a connected window the pallet vault is literally a dead power with no use.
Pre-dropping things that are completely safe against her and forcing her to transform is not an important part of her counterplay, it's just a tedious thing that makes her feel bad. You would still be able to find safety in those pallets, but it wouldn't be a ton of free distance in that situation. They could even give her a slightly longer pallet break in Head form if they really needed to. -
@Rokku_Rorru said:
She already can with Dissoloution though, I feel when she is used with perks like that is where she is most oppressive, as It removes any counterplay aside from hold W
That's the thing, if she runs dissolution or bam its the most non-interactive thing because she has a manual vault, but if she doesn't have it, having to swap to get rid of things she physically cannot play around because she can't break pallets feels bad, especially when you're dealing with bodyblocks and such. Having to switch to break pallets also means you're dropping another mushroom, when the "mushroom economy" is already out of balance because you lose Leech off the hook.
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@FreGU said:
Hi, I completely agree with the updates, but I want to make a few changes to Oni, and here's why: It's too much, 5 or 6 balls would be enough, and add the Animatronic's court, as it's very weak in the chase, and its axe is useless, as it doesn't provide even a small slowdown, such as 3%. I think it would be fair, as it slows down by 3% itself. And yes, I've played for 3,000 hours.
With Oni, it is currently 5 as of the Krasue release. I think they would only need to up it to a higher number if the anti-slug changes go through at a similar strength to that PTB because slugging is such a major part of his kit.
Could you explain more about the Animatronic, I'm not sure I get what you mean? I honestly don't know what I'd do specifically to buff him. -
@Moodyy said:
I'd rather give him better addons than nerfing engravings which is already fine.
Here's a couple of addons Billy can use:
- Longer overdrive duration
- Mothers Helpers ( Faster charge time after being stunned with a pallet for 20 seconds)
- Classic Hillbilly- Disables Overdrive, grants faster movement speed or charge time
- Faster Chainsaw Hit cooldown
- Aura reading?: Continuing a chainsaw sprint for more than 3 seconds reveals the aura of survivors that are within 8 meters of range.
I'm not too invested in Billy, but I've seen a few major ones asking for that specific change, I do think that the chainsaw dissipation related add-ons suck and should be reworked though, and your ideas could fill those 4 spots.
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@Ohyakno said:
She needs precisely zero compensation buffs. The mushroom thing is irrelevant as long as they take ten years to actually take effect.
The thing is as well, this type of buff will do nothing to hurt solo queue, it would help her slightly against some teams (I swf a lot and personally do deal with her in this way, but it's not realistic in solo). A simple scenario is just eating a mushroom, and having a teammate body-block for you for the 30 or so seconds. Currently that's pretty hard to pull off, but if she is weaker in chase, can't counter god pallets and such with a vault, having her lose a little bit less when dealing with that bodyblock is fair imo.
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@Ohyakno said:
She needs precisely zero compensation buffs. The mushroom thing is irrelevant as long as they take ten years to actually take effect.
Ideally she would be nerfed to a place where a small compensation buff would be fine. If they need to do anything further I think lowering from 120% to 117.5% or 115% to be more fair. The ideal is for her to be good to play as and against, and that is something that could feel bad to play as.
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@Wezqu said:
Adding attack cooldown after using regurgitate is also needed as currently you can leech the survivor and right away m1 them so basically doing two attacks almost instantly.
They need to decrease headlong flights duration as 12 seconds is enough to get other side of most maps and there currently is no reason to even not use it every second you can. Could give maybe little bit faster recharge but currently its just way too easy to catch survivor up with it when there is no fear of it ever really running out.
I would take head forms ability to carry survivors as it looks stupid and in my opinion does not make any sense. It also would force the killer to change forms more often. You could compensate it with faster form change when changing back to body form.
The hitting survivors over objects when in head form needs to go. You can hit people over rocks, barrels and other stuff with it currently.
yeah i didn’t know how to word adding a m1 cooldown, but i might edit that in, I think the flight duration is fine. The issue is right now she has very high mobility AND lethality. If her lethality is a bit lower her mobility being high won’t matter as much (and also that she's easy).
I disagree with the carrying for head form (they just need to fix the free camera that prevents saves) because you drop a mushroom after you transform and then the balance would be off. Currently you can kinda keep the number of mushrooms static which I think is a cool aspect of her power.
And the collision window is what lets her hit over objects super easily (bc it doesn’t get stopped) at least I’m fairly certain. Bc it both makes her hit over stuff and makes her power very easy to use.
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@majoreq said:
Summary of Suggestions:
- Replace Head Form's Pallet Vault with a Pallet Break
- Increase Head → Body Transition speed to 2.3 m/s from 1.15 m/s
W*F am i reading….
how this would be good?
This killer NEED NERFS ASAP not another buffs… this must be rage bait or you are just on the bottom of mmr if you dont understand that this killer is already too strong
i updated this post to reflect that I made a Krasue specific post that had more nerfs already lmao.
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@majoreq said:
Summary of Suggestions:
- Replace Head Form's Pallet Vault with a Pallet Break
- Increase Head → Body Transition speed to 2.3 m/s from 1.15 m/s
W*F am i reading….
how this would be good?
This killer NEED NERFS ASAP not another buffs… this must be rage bait or you are just on the bottom of mmr if you dont understand that this killer is already too strong
I also think they could increase the cooldown on regurgitate, and make head form 115 instead of 120. But removing a pallet vault does way more to nerf her than a little feels good thing for dealing with body blocks
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If this isn't enough to make her fair, while also feeling smooth for the killer, I think Head Form should be taken from 4.8 m/s back down to 4.6 m/s.
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@YuffieGreatestWaifu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4005494#Comment_4005494
Answer this why would you run Road life over any other current healing perk?
For Altruistic Heals, there's really no reason. For self-heals, it's the fastest self-heal speed modifier. I like the gimmick with self-care because if you're constantly self-healing with just botany or just 1-2 stacks of desperate measures you're wasting time in a lot of scenarios unless you stack them both which takes 3 out of 4 builds slots. I like being able to just run the 2 together and self-care when it's active at a speed faster than a med-kit heal. It's not an amazing perk, and I would be fine with it getting a 30 second timer, but I also wouldn't mind if it stayed the same while they change higher priority things.
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@YuffieGreatestWaifu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4005064#Comment_4005064
I can tell you are a killer main and never ever run this perk and want other survivor perks to be nerfed to this level.
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I mean I'm Iri 1 on both less than 2 weeks into the month because I like both roles a lot. Killer has less oppressive perks than survivor does right now, killer issues are mostly killer specific (like blight being able to zone break and rush immediately, krasue existing), the only perk that was really problematic was DMS and it got changed already. I don't want survivor healing perks to be nerfed, I want killer anti-healing perks to be buffed. They should've just straight up buffed leverage instead of side-grading it, which I'm going to edit into the post lmao.
I used the build above a few times and it was useful because I like to stay injured on gens and reset only when necessary anyway (or use the medkit if I needed to reset otherwise). I'm not against a 30 second timer, but it definitely isn't as bad as you say, it's just not meta. For altruistic heals it kinda sucks when people move around and cancel it so I see why a timer would be good there to make that better, because I've mostly been using it on self heals. -
@YuffieGreatestWaifu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4005029#Comment_4005029
Its not the best its the worst healing perk. Did you even read the requirements to get it off.
Drop the one time attempt and give it a 60sec timer once activated please something where its not a one off.How often are you getting interrupted while healing, are you just exclusively healing under hook or something? It's literally just 4 greats while injured then your next heal is 100% faster. I'm also not regularly missing skill-checks to the point of losing tokens lmao. If you have an issue hitting greats, run stake-out. If you want a consistent perk run botany, desperate measures, do no harm, or we'll make it. It's the fastest self heal modifier so obviously it needs to have some weirder condition when it also stacks with the other ones. Some sort of timer would be fine, but I don't know why we're acting like you getting interrupted while healing is a problem with the perk and not you for the most part.
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@YuffieGreatestWaifu said:
How is road life solid ? Did you even read it
1. You need to get great skill checks when injured and not just injured not broken
2. Missing removes them
3. It ONLY lasts until you attempt end so if you scream or have to end it before its completed its used upIt's not the best thing ever, but I've gotten value with self-care and a med kit. I just don't think there needs to be a universally strong healing perk again so it's fine being like a 5-6/10
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@SoGo said:
I feel like basekit Tenacity is fine, but the recovery speeding up isn't.
I would also remove the killer Haste after hook and the aura reveal for survivors after unhook.
The rest I can agree with you.
basekit tenacity means you’re more likely to lose someone you down if you leave to do something for like 20 seconds. Having the choice to crawl to me is fine, but being able to do both is a really strong effect, especially because you’re charging a free unbreakable as well if you lose them. I think the crawling speed gradually increasing is fine, but it should either be 90s or the timer resets or 120s and it doesn’t reset (which I would prefer tbh), with recovery while crawling not being in the equation
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3990811#Comment_3990811
I could compromise on one over the other, I think. 120 with Tenacity, or 90 without. Otherwise I don't think it'll make a very big dent in the problem.
I'm sorry, do you want to be invincible? Not to be rude, but if you have been playing the game and think you need both unbreakable and tenacity base kit with no compensation for the killer, you need to improve and not make significant macro mistakes. If your teammates are throwing in a team game, they also need to improve. I think hard slugging is a problem (specifically for solo, and really only in the context of blindness), but there are a variety of reasons leaving someone on the ground is a good or NECESSARY decision to the point where punishing it is crazy. This is not something that should happen in normal gameplay, so the only reason you would want either is to just have 1-2 free perk slots.
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@UnicornMedal said:
Basekit Tenacity I can take or leave. I'm a No Mither main and the Killer usually won't let me get away if they know what I'm up to, so I don't think it'd make a huge difference unless they're not paying attention at all. It's one of those things where with it, they can just run Deerstalker and without it, I can just run Tenacity.
The 120 seconds I'm not a fan of though. I don't think Killer realistically needs 2 minutes of pressure on one Survivor. That's half the bleed out timer and almost 2 generators. It totally defeats the purpose of Survivor having more autonomy during the slugged state. If you gave the player something better to do during that time, I wouldn't hate it. But otherwise it's too much (in my opinion).
Slugging is fine, hard slugging for a bleed out is not, which is met with a hard penalty of unbreakable after (120) seconds on the ground. If stuff like sabotage, pallet saves, plot twist didn't exist sure the 90 seconds is fine, but I think having infinite pick ups after 90 seconds on the ground is a bit extreme no?There needs to be no doubt that this doesn't interrupt normal gameplay (the game has functioned relatively fine for years and survivors have plenty of tools to counter slugging already), and I think exercising caution outside of the most severe scenario is good. Base-kit tenacity also just hurts certain killers disproportionately and makes certain perks stronger.
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@TripleStryke said:
Here are my initial thoughts on the developer update from hopefully a fairly unbiased perspective considering I am very experienced in both roles, and play them relatively equally. I’ll try to address the changes roughly in order of their appearance in the notes, and if I don’t mention something I am probably fine with it.
Slugging Reduction Update:
I think this section of the update should be 120 seconds instead of 90 seconds, but is otherwise fine, because it should not be able to trigger more than once per trial as a basekit mechanic per survivor.
Additionally, the Twins probably need something to center their gameplay around hooking because as it stands they just get shafted by these changes.
Tunneling Reduction Update:
I think that the hook status being hidden from the killer is a bad change, and trying to restrict killer information in such a way is sort of weird. I know you’re trying to remove tunneling, but there is already an incentive and disincentive structure in place to the point where going for the unhooker should still be a possibility, especially if the other survivors are on the opposite end of the map.
The new status effects for unhooked survivors are solid/fine in the context of the direction you’re going with these changes, and I appreciate that they are disabled in the end gameThe last hook indicator is a good change.
I have an issue with this compensation mechanic. The base-kit regression should have nothing to do with generator kicks because that will always favor killers much more with mobility or map pressure. No one is using pop effectively on Huntress for example because she just doesn’t have the mobility to deliver it. This needs to be triggered remotely like a base-kit Pain Resonance for unique hooks instead, so all killers can benefit. The other effects are fine, and killer specific balancing as an option is huge.
The disincentives on the other hand seem extreme to a degree. The first change is probably fine as long as it isn’t super severe (like 10% as an absolute max). In terms of the no genblock/regression this does seem severe and abuseable if it is permanent, but if it is only until your next hook or something it is probably fine.
Killer and Perk Changes:They’re fine/good. I’m sure it will turn out some perks were left unaddressed, but we will see. I’m interested to see how the Myers update plays, as funny as it is that he has also become a dash killer and how the perk changes play out as well. I think unknown needs a slightly shorter UVX cooldown though and longer weakened (1-2 seconds on both ends).
In summary of the changes I would make to this update:
1. Self Pick Up Requirement: 120 seconds (was 90 seconds)
2. Hidden Hook Status Feature Removed
3. Base-kit Regression: is like 15% on unique hooks on the highest progressed gen instead of on kicks (obv perk changes are needed)4. Permanent Repair Speed Boost is like 8-10% maximum, if currently higher than that.
5. No Gen Blocking/Regression after sacrificing the last hooked survivor only lasts until the next hook.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
Requiring a full altruistic heal would be incredibly annoying, it's one of the reasons I don't run Second Wind more often, because if a teammate who has no idea you have the perk joins the heal for even a fraction of a second, then the activation is ruined.
I wouldn't like to see the recovery activation increased either, as that would cause it to have to rely on these perks to be reliable.
Maybe a compromise would be to have it be based on the time in the dying state, instead of recovery progress. Making it take 8 seconds to activate after being downed would keep it just as effective standalone, but removes the synergy with recovery perks.
If they could make it time on the ground (stationary) I would be fine with it, but if not the recovery def needs to be increased a bit. As for the second wind thing I would also be fine if Conviction was just altruistic instead of counting self heals rather than requiring the full heal. Self healing is my main issue with it's activation requirement.
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@YouShouldBeAshamed said:
Hey, here's a strat, don't slug. Pick up immediately and conviction is useless. End of story.
Conviction is only strong if you don't counterplay. Otherwise it has little impact if the entire build isn't a synergistic one, like some of the perks you mentioned.
To add to that, someone running this type of build is meming more often than not and not particularly spending a majority of time doing the important thing, fixing gens.
In a very rare case scenario it may help the solo remaining survivor get out after hatch is shut powering the exit gates. if the killer was not suspecting the build because you don't show your cards til the last moment, you have a chance but not a guarantee.
If you pick up immediately when someone can get a save, I don't really think that's the counterplay you think it is (they only need to hover for 5 seconds with the weapon wipe, less with any recover speed modifier). The perk is good on its own, but you're right it's not extremely oppressive unless you dedicate 2-3 perks to it. It also probably wouldn't be as much of a problem if the things that it went with weren't already strong on their own, which is why the majority of these changes aim to make the combinations with Plot Twist/Self Healing/Exponential less strong. I think its also a bit wild to say picking up instantly is the same as "just don't slug". There are a variety of reasons why a killer should do something before they pick up a survivor, that should not be punished i.e. setting up a trap, sending a guard, kicking in a gen, getting out a resource, even if they don't intend to go for a down on a different person, especially if the hook they are planning on taking the survivor to is outside of the area where they went down.
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@MechWarrior3 said:
I’d like houndsense to be a little more useful too. I’m not a fan of the deep wound stuff.
I think houndsense is fine on its own, there just aren't really any add-ons that make it super useful. Like Fatty Meat is useful for hex's I guess and to trigger DMS sometimes, but that's really the only add-on that is "survivors who are affected by houndsense" and even then its value is very inconsistent because it doesn't show the location of the screams.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
- Yes she definitely needs bugfixes. And a lot of them too.
- Agree with the chase cooldown change for the reasons you said.
- Search recall is something I hadn't considered before but I don't really see any problems with it.
- I would much rather rework Knotted Rope with a new effect than re-buff it. Old Knotted Rope + STBFL was pretty horrible to play against and I don't think it would be much different at 8% than it was at 10%. Basic attack recovery speed should just not really ever be part of an addon imo. My suggestion has been to change it to instead increase the size of the Search radius by 20%.
- I'm indifferent on Barley Meal being partial basekit. I don't think I would have anything against it, but I've never felt like its necessary either. I don't use it very often and usually do fine without it.
- I'd also say they could look at buffs for Spyglass and Belaying Pins, I don't think those addons are very good. Belaying Pins gives only 20 seconds of oblivious in situations where survivors should often know you're coming anyway since you just sent the dog there. Spyglass aura at 3 seconds is quite easy to miss entirely especially if you're not in chase with that survivor (and it doesn't activate at all anyways if you hit them before houndsense ends).
Yeah I was surprised there hasn't been anything that increases the size of the search radius, I would like that as well.
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@Coordi said:
Merciless Storm wasn't kill switched to my knowledge, as it wasn't game breaking. Nemesis abuse of PWYF was critical enough that the team moved forward with the kill switch. The criteria isn't my call or expertise; I'm communicating with what information I have rather than ignoring the thread altogether. I can and have takem the feedback to the team, however, that more player facing information on the Kill Switch and criteria is wanted.
This is in the same realm as the nemesis bug and should be killswitched. 15% haste (primarily) is relatively equivalent to the current streetwise toolbox bug, both still had a time investment to get, and both resulted in gamebreaking efficiency towards their objective afterwards. This feels like a disregard of the killer experience to be honest. I also think merciless storm should have been killswitched to be honest even if it wasn't as common.
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@Coordi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3976884#Comment_3976884
Respectfully, considering how long it takes to even exploit the bug, it isn't affecting games enough to meet the criteria. I am not discounting the frustration or feedback about how it is being used. However, until it is gamebreaking, it will not receive a Kill Switch. It is a nuclear option.
Are you aware how easy it is to use? Not going to say exactly how but you can easily do this in maybe 20-30 seconds and then permanently get 50-150% gen speed or more for the rest of the trial. This feels like a crazy statement to say and is very out of touch.
Even if it resulted in only a small net increase, do you guys not understand why the blood generators went so much faster? The killer cannot defend the time spent on an area other than the gens, so even if they were taking a similar amount of time (which they aren't, they are still way faster especially if you bring certain perks to get an extra 30% on the toolbox or get an engineers), it would result in gens getting completed faster to the point it breaks the balance of the game. Not only is it saving time, it is saving time in a way that the killer cannot defend, and I think the kill switch SHOULD be used for something like this. -
SUMMARY OF THE ISSUE: Through both the pod placer arm, and the cameras you cannot teleport to or in the case of the cameras infect survivors, even when directly aimed at them. This makes it so someone can just put a fog vial on a gen for example and you cannot use your power for the duration of its effect.
PLATFORM: PC/Epic/Steam
STEP BY STEP INSTRUCTIONS ON HOW THE ISSUE OCCURED: Play a match as singularity against a fog vial and try to teleport or infect a survivor within it.
VIDEO:
https://youtu.be/gNouSGBlipw
PLAYER LOGS:
DeadByDaylight-EGS.log -
@TalonTheGreat said:
Just because the average killer has gotten better(Which is an issue in and of itself) Doesn't mean you should go and buff all the other killers who are already good.
He has a ranged/anti-looping ability, no killer even the new ones have instant teleportation(Nurse excluded of course) and he has his teleportation ability that can be placed anywhere on the map.
He is not a good killer, both of his abilities are below average. He is just worse Xenomorph and worse Springtrap at this point. If he was buffed to be around their level he would be in a much better spot, especially in a game where since Singularity every killer has been strong. He can place his mobility anywhere he wants but it can also be removed whenever survivors want.
These changes amount to a 12.5% buff to the shred and teleport speed, and a 20% reduction to the teleport cooldown with a bit of QOL. What about this is so outrageous on a below average killer? Putting in an effort to mitigate power creep is important. When dracula got released with a 6 meter range on hellfire, they buffed nemesis in multiple ways and increased his tier 3 range to 6.5. He's not as strong as dracula, but putting in the effort to solidify a reason to play him made him much more popular.
Also nurse doesn't have instant teleportation??? Sadako does, but that's not a great example because she's a weaker killer.
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@Elan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3947262#Comment_3947262
Simple. Survivor is second stage, someone gets STB on them now they are one shot and will be second stage once you down them. Not even talking about people STB when already been hooked. The perk is garbage. And people know it. To make it work you have to run 4-man with everyone have it equipped.
I fear you don't understand it's value. First point is if it's only strong in a 4 man and unusable for solos (which it isn't), then why not nerf it, so it is balanced in the cases it is used. Second point, do you not understand how much time this perk adds to before a survivor is dead?
Let's go over the use cases for this perk when used correctly, even just once to understand it's value.
- A survivor is second stage, they leave the hook to pressure someone else. About halfway through the hook or earlier the Survivor uses a shoulder the burden, and now instead of having a survivor on death hook you can capitalize on you have to either go for the injured survivor, or go for the exposed person. Either way the time chasing either survivor + hooking them + the time they spend on hook, which is up 70s is the next time you can have someone at risk of dying.
- Second scenario is just that they save last second with shoulder, you get the trade, but again it adds another hook stage of time before someone is at risk of dying for gens to be completed.
- 3rd scenario is you staying by the hook proxying the entire time waiting for shoulder and losing the game or maybe getting a second kill in end game.
I'd argue this perk has more of an impact to win games than anything in the last 3 years or more. Over those years though killer perks have gotten proportionally weaker so it just feels weird.
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@Langweilig said:
Mangled can become permanent again but hemorrhage shouldn‘t. Losing all the healing progress over and over again was just frustrating back then
I think it’s fair to have healing progress reset, it’s up to you as survivor to reset at a place the killer can’t interrupt and if they find you healing I think it’s alright to reward them a bit more if they dedicate something in their build to that.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
I don't feel like STB needs a nerf personally. Yes, it is very strong, but only in the right situation. You don't get value out of this in every game. You need the hook counts to be imbalanced in such a way that it helps you, and at the same time you have to not be the one getting tunneled. If you get hooked early on in a match or the killer is spreading hooks fairly evenly then the perk does nothing.
The example Vecna game you showed is a great example of this perk working at its maximum value, but it's 1 game. More often than not, the circumstances don't work out this way and it's a dead perk slot.
It gets the most value in a team, where it becomes overpowered because against a solid team who is semi efficient you cannot spread hooks evenly and still win unless you’re maybe top 8 killers in the game. If we are talking best of the best teams it even destroys people playing extremely well on those killers.
Im not advocating for the game to be balanced around exclusively the highest level of play, but that level of balance can’t be completely neglected, I mean deliverance is really strong in a team as well, but I don’t care if it stays the way it is because it doesn’t come close to the impact of STB. I cannot stress enough how much of an impact this perk has, and it would still be as impactful if not more than deliverance with the changes I’ve suggested, just in a way that has reasonable counter-play for the killer, more in line with other perks that at least require some other perk to mitigate the downside.
For example: Deliverance, it has a clear activation, which you can usually tell by who gets the first unhook, so you know to not hook them so someone has to go for the pick up unless they have UB.
At worst this perk would force the killer to hook one other person which is a strong effect, but the game is just not balanced around forcing the killer to hook all 4.
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@Brokenbones said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3947415#Comment_3947415
Again this dude probably wins hundreds of matches back to back and (This isn't meant as an insult) plays effeciencly by tunnelling someone out asap which for a lot of the survivor playerbase is a 'stomp'.
Seems like MMR doing it's job for a change if you ask me.
See the survivors were on an escape streak too so yeah the mmr is working both of them probably winning 99% of matches, but turn your attention away from blight for a second. What is basically any other killer supposed to do in that situation if he can barely tie with survivors handicapping themselves.
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@Brokenbones said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3947413#Comment_3947413
I do think you have a point about it being punishing towards Killers who don't tunnel. That part I completely agree with you on.
But, I don't think gutting the perk is the way to fix that either. People were doom/gloom about STB during houndmaster's release and yeah it is a super strong perk but it's also barely used and at least with how frequent returning to the hook is these days it comes with a big risk to the survivor using it.
see I disagree that this would gut the perk, but instead be more situational in a way that’s fine. Like unbreakable for example I feel like I’m left on the ground long enough to get unbreakable at the same frequency a killer is hard tunneling a teammate. But unbreakable is still a good perk and I think STB would still be as well
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https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3947412#Comment_3947412
pushing back is fine, stomping is not okay. No restrictions on one of the best blights should be able to beat restricted survivors on a fairly standard map because if he can’t who can? There is no killer perk that gets nearly as much value as STB does.
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@Brokenbones said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3947391#Comment_3947391
But your suggestion kills the perk for the majority of people who might want to use it in Solo Q though. Making a perk worse for Solo Q/everyone else because of SWFs doesn't seem right.
Like you said, good survivors/SWFs don't need it and so they don't run it. Plus just because you're in the right spot hook state wise to use STB, doesn't mean you will be able to. I've had quite a few games where I had 0 hooks and someone was on death hook and my other teammates saved them before I could use STB.
And my point isn't that Killers can afford to hook all 4 survivors or whatever, my point is in many games you will be the first hooked and the perk will become a dead slot because of it.
@Brokenbones said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3947391#Comment_3947391
But your suggestion kills the perk for the majority of people who might want to use it in Solo Q though. Making a perk worse for Solo Q/everyone else because of SWFs doesn't seem right.
Like you said, good survivors/SWFs don't need it and so they don't run it. Plus just because you're in the right spot hook state wise to use STB, doesn't mean you will be able to. I've had quite a few games where I had 0 hooks and someone was on death hook and my other teammates saved them before I could use STB.
And my point isn't that Killers can afford to hook all 4 survivors or whatever, my point is in many games you will be the first hooked and the perk will become a dead slot because of it.
I would still be able to use it in solo queue, but only as a counter to the hardest tunneling in the game, and so would swfs. I am someone who abuses this stuff in swfs, and plenty of people do too - it makes the game basically impossible for the killer even without comms unless we are just messing around.
People getting the unhook before you is not a reason to keep STB busted. That’s an issue with you not being able to see your teammates perks which should’ve been in the game a long time ago. Even with deliverance you can still get to the 3v1 before you’re hit with that perk, but there is no killer that can hold the last 3 gens against 4 alive survivors.
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@Brokenbones said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3947262#Comment_3947262
It's not that the perk is weak, it's just getting maximum value out of it revolves around the person who brings it not getting hooked first/losing their first hook state which is easier said than done in a lot of games. It's like Deliverance. Super strong when it works, basically useless if you're the first hooked
Using it past that point is basically throwing because you'd be putting yourself on death hook + exposing yourself on top of that.
What I’m trying to say basically is that against the teams running shoulder well, you cannot hook all 4 survivors individually before getting someone out of the game, but if you try to get someone out earlier you’re also going to lose the game. You’re put into a lose-lose situation that takes the game out of your hands.
https://youtu.be/_EpTAX0ETmA?si=KtKrxpqNROhK_khF
Here’s a video for example where it is one of the best blights in the world, close to the best build vs a team with shoulder the burden, only 1, in combination with other meta stuff. Now the survivors were not running duplicate perks, only basic items, and he barely gets a 2k because the game from an efficiency standpoint is just out of his hands. It’s reasonable to assume that if they were running multiple shoulders and stronger items he would’ve gotten maybe a 1k. This is one of the strongest, if not the strongest killer in the game that honestly needs a bit of a nerf, and he could not compete. Obviously bhvr doesn’t intend on balancing at the absolute highest level, but it doesn’t mean it should be completely neglected especially when this perk only exists to stomp high level matches. -
@Brokenbones said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3947329#Comment_3947329
See this is a good example of what I mean in my previous post, if you had gotten hooked at any point earlier in the match - Shoulder would've been a dead perk slot for you.
Think about it, you'd put yourself on death hook and expose yourself making you a super easy target.
I played in a way where it was bad for the killer to chase me, if he had chased me prior he would’ve lost the game as well because hooking me gives him no immediate pressure, and I pre run him into such a bad area away from the gens. “Just hook me earlier” is not easy when I pre run his TR, and if he tries to fly on top of me I lithe into main’s completed gens to waste more time and predrop pallets. It’s not a smart decision for him to make.
If you are going against a strong team as anyone who isn’t top 8 or so, you cannot go out of your way to hook all 4 survivors before killing someone. And if we are talking best of the best you cannot do that with the strongest killers as well even if you play well. If this is a perk that is only extremely strong in the hands of the strongest teams, why not just just balance it around them if it was going to be unusable for the average player anyway?And yes deliverance is very strong, but this is much stronger
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@Elan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/448623/shoulder-the-burden-suggestion
It's almost not used perk, favoring killer if you play around it. So no. I don't think it needs nerfs.
Here's an example from a solo game I just played. Steve is death-hook, right now basically the only path of winning for the killer is to get Steve out of the game. I use shoulder the burden on him to take his hook state. (I have no hooks because any time he tried chasing me prior I preran to the corner of the map away from everything where it would be detrimental for him to chase me).
He goes for Steve because I run to an area where he probably woudn't get the exposed down in time. Then when Steve is unhooked yui takes a down, and suddenly he's in a lose lose situation. If he hooks yui all the gens get done, and if he continues chasing steve all the gens get done. He hooks yui to try and get pop value, but we're split on gens, all the gens pop, and we get a 3 out. The game went from close and within reach to completely out of his hands barring some insane mess up almost entirely because I brought this perk and used it well, even though he didn't really make any bad decisions.
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@Elan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/448623/shoulder-the-burden-suggestion
It's almost not used perk, favoring killer if you play around it. So no. I don't think it needs nerfs.
Why do people think this perk is weak? Why do you think it favors the killer?
I’m trying to understand why there’s such a disconnect about this perk because most people with a lot of experience think that when it’s used well, it’s the most impactful perk in the game,
I think the best way for me to try to explain is just to say that once the killer gets into the 3v1 it’s a way stronger position and that if a person hasn’t been hooked yet by the point someone reached struggle phase it can delay that first kill by over a minute. Unless you’re the strongest killers, you don’t really have the time to go hooking every survivor individually especially when the person with this perk is probably playing more hidden.
If you as killer are beating a team by 12 hooking, sure you would’ve beat them anyway if they had shoulder, but if you need to ignore a survivor for whatever reason in closer games against good survivors (doing gens in strong areas, leaving areas you care about defending, on the other side of a large map etc) it can lose you the game for no reason other than a survivor brought a perk because of the pressure it relieves.
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@Elan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3944628#Comment_3944628
Shoulder teh burden is probably most overrated perk and as killer I always get use of it more than them. :-)
People using it wrong =/= it being weak. Which is why it doesn't need to exist because it is only useful on the teams that don't need it, in which it becomes ovepowered on.
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@Elan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/448155/patch-concerns-feedback
Spawn rules - It won't be meta as maps, don't even worry about that. I haven't got it a single time and there were multiple "catastrophic prophecies" about new broken stuffs like Shoulder the burden, lucky break,… and they lie somewhere forgotten.
Unbound - big agree. The perk was finally good, but at least it's 7 % and not 5 %. I expected that to happen, because with buffs to multiple haste perks i ran haste builds and it was straight unfair. My main build was Battery included, Unbound, Machine learning and either game afoot or play with your food. Anyone who understand numbers know that Clown = - 15 % movement speed (with those perks you could move at + 30 % speed for quite some time) which made so huge different that i outplayed every single loop along with shack just by holding w and got the old skull merchant treatment of "you get hit in every loop, accepit it".shoulder the burden is absolutely overpowered, it’s the strongest perk in the game by far at the highest level, but you’re obv not running into it every game. This offering is not that strong but it is just strong for no reason, and having an offering that reverses a qol of life change doesn’t make sense. Imagine if killer had an offering that just enabled hook grabs or something.
as for your clown build you could always run coup or rapid brutality instead -
@Mandy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3926825#Comment_3926825
Its not about working better on some killers than others, that's any perk tbh - different killers get better or worse benefits than others. Specifically it was about not wanting the interaction on the actual killer power itself, which is why there is no vault speed bonus on Bamboozle for Legion in Frenzy.
Altering the speed of the vault is different than triggering an effect on the vault, which is what it is more comparable to. Dark Arrogance, Superior Anatomy, Fire up, and Bamboozle vault speed all don't work with the power vaults which is logically consistent, but Bamboozle's window block does work on power vaults, which means Unbound, which is another effect that triggers on window vaults should as well regardless of if you're in power or not.
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@Mandy said:
I am going to throw a potential spanner in the works on this - please no hating me, but I do believe there's a bug attached with this perk that means killers who have vault in their power - so Wesker, Legion in Frenzy etc, are benefitting from it when they shouldn't be. So think of it working in a similar way to Bamboozle in that respect.
I don't think that should be considered a bug, if it works for pallet vaults yes, but for window power vaults it is no different than bamboozle still applying the window block but not the speed? I think this should be considered intended because you are still vaulting within power. I'm pretty sure wesker's is the only one that applies on pallets.
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@Reinami said:
I think the last change done to make it be like 2 tokens is a bit heavy handed. I like to have a playstyle where, if i break a pallet, i drop chase and go after someone else if i can, and this actively punishes me from doing that. When it was set to 1 stack, it was enough where it made you think about chasing again or not, but at 2 stacks, your whole power is on cooldown. Which kind of defeats the purpose.
The other change around the vault speed is fine, makes it more similar to wesker, but i think this other change went too far. It just takes away the smooth "feel" of the killer i guess.
I think they shoudlve made it 1 token and made the token recharge 5 9 12 like artist (instead of 4 8 12)
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Also give Blight a 2 token cooldown for breaking a pallet 💀
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I think there are some issues with the abandon system.
Killer:
For the killer's first scenario where every survivor in the trial is a bot, I think that this should count as a Win, but a Draw is fine.
However, I think that for the second scenario, the design is inherently flawed. If no gen has been done for 10 minutes because the survivors are hiding/holding the killer hostage by not progressing the game, that should be discouraged and count as a Draw or Win for the killer. However, if those 10 minutes are because the killer is 3 genning to meet the time limit against a solo team I think that should be discouraged as well and count as a Draw or Loss for the killer. I think that this system should be adjusted entirely to:
- If no generator has been progressed by survivors for 5 minutes the killer can abandon and it is counted as a Win.
I feel that this would be better than a generator being completed because it removes the 3 gen scenario, and exclusively targets the refusal to progress the game.
Survivor:
For the survivor's first scenario where every other survivor is a bot I agree it should be a Draw.
However, if all survivors in the trial are in the dying state for the second scenario why on earth does this count as a draw. The last survivor alive can abandon every time and it will never count as a loss. This should be counted as a Loss for survivor.
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@steponmeadiris31 said:
These Changes would be fine if Invigoration and Intoxication were exempt, and more perks/add-ons were buffed because the list currently is not enough.
Survivor Perks:- Teamwork: Power of Two: 7% haste (was 5%)
- Blood Pact: 9% haste (was 7%)
- Chemical Trap: 70% hinder (was 50%)
Killer Perks:
- Batteries Included: 8% haste (was 5%)
- Rapid Brutality: 8% haste (was 5%)
- Play with Your Food: 7% haste per token (was 5%)
- Game Afoot: 10% haste (was 5%)
- Hex: Nothing But Misery: 8% hinder (was 5%)
- Machine Learning: 15% haste (was 10%)
- Knockout: 8% hinder (was 5%)
Add-ons:
- Huntress:
- Leather Loop: 4% haste (was 2%)
- Infantry Belt: 5% haste (was 3%)
- Legion:
- BFFs: 10% haste (was 6%)
- Xenomorph:
- Parker's Headband: 8 seconds of haste (was 5 seconds)
- Running Shoes: 5% haste (was 2%)
- Trickster:
- Iridescent Photocard: 1.5% haste per stack up to 10.5% (was 1% up to 7%)
These changes would complete the haste/hindered changes without destroying all variety for clown who would be the biggest loser in this scenario.
These are all great suggestions I hope that they go through
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Like if I cant use rapid brutality on singularity anymore because it is only slightly better than without that would be kinda sad, unless it was buffed to 8% lmao
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@Hex_Excommunicated said:
The problem I always had with Plague is that nobody cleansed themselves to deny corrupt purge unless I bring Thanatophobia.
Yeah its hard to get value when they do that without bringing an apple addon, which is what I tried to change with this suggestion a long with quality of life/bug fixes.
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@Hex_Excommunicated said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3897429#Comment_3897429
Thanks. Ok that makes a lot more sense now. Damn. I guess I have to change the way I play with him now. Is there anything else important I missed?
The main thing other than that is that longer paths make it so the flag takes longer to spawn. There's also individual guard cooldowns you can switch between, the path needs to be 10 meters to place a guard, you can place a guard while another guard is out, but it removes the other guard and puts it on cooldown, and the chase stats of carnifex moved to jailer, but the carnifex still has the fast break.