Let's have an actual discussion about Nurse
Most threads concerning Nurse either consist of "Nerf Nurse" or "You're a baby, Nurse is fine", which causes people to say why they disagree/agree with the OP but at the same time not explain their reasoning as much as they could.
As a result, nobody learns from these discussions, so their opinions don't change- they may even become more cemented. So I want to achieve the exact opposite, and make sure that people can take away valuable knowledge.
So if you don't think Nurse needs nerfs, say why, and how you think survivors should play against her.
If you think Nurse needs nerfs, say why you think so, especially if you think she needs basekit nerfs or even a complete rework.
And please try to be open-minded and civil.
Comments
Which, again, is why the devs should consider showing MMR in the postgame screen. Sure, I have a ridiculous pub win rate on Nurse. But survivors have also managed a total of three (3) gens over my last two Pyramid Head games combined. Better killers are going to win the vast majority of the time. And top killer players are going to especially stomp when role population imbalances cause matchmaking to cast a wide net.
What I think happens a bit with Nurse: the type of player who wants to be a top tier player and really grind the role is going to go for the strongest character. Those players will still have a similar win rate if you take Nurse out of the equation.
The Nurse players are telling you to use different resources and that conventional resources aren't useful in the same way. That's what is puzzling about the debate. Players have tools, you're just choosing not to use them. You learned how to use X resources against M1 killers. Why can't you learn to use Y resources against Nurse?
I'd be fine with nurse staying the same ( i actually listened to nurse mains on this one because i was calling for a rework before) but her synergy with oppressive addons and perks needs to be removed
no range no recharge no starstruck no make your choice make it so the skillful plays on the survivor side actually matter and can't be ignored by addons that make a missplay by the nurse or good plays by the survivor mean little
basekit nurse can be fun to go against without all this bs (same goes for blight but a bit less)
Killers that are difficult to play need to have outrageously good powers or no one will play them.
Look at Freddy or Deathslinger. Both were easy to play with moderately useful powers. They nerfed both to be way harder to play without actually improving their powers in any way, so nobody plays them anymore.
Nurse's power is fine. As is Blight. Anybody who thinks those two "arent' that hard to play" has never touched them in their lives.
You are not special. You are playing a killer that has been out for years. You are not enlightening people on some secret methods for how to go against Nurse.
Everyone already knows.
It's so amazingly dishonest to say that people just don't want to learn how to face nurse. Of all the lies you nurse mains tell to keep your OP toy, this one is the most frustrating.
Why even lie? It doesn't make sense. Just admit that nurse is way overtuned, or be quiet. Anything else is just making yourself look foolish...
See: No True Scotsman fallacy
"A good Nurse can't be outplayed"
"But a survivor can do X to make her miss in this situation"
"But a high MMR Nurse on my server will make that blink 100% of the time"
SWF is broken. Everyone admits it. Trying to remove good killers so we have no chance at high levels will only aggravate the shortage of killer players. Also please stop saying Spirit is fine. Nobody plays her seriously anymore. Not even Gann.
Spirit is fine. If you want to pretend her nerf has made her F-tier you can but I don't see why everyone else has to join in
In fact, the funny thing is that every time we ask the players who cry because "The bad nurse is OP" to show videos showing their gameplay against her ... strangely ... there is no one left 😁I don't know, to believe some, the fact that the nurse is OP is an interstellar evidence ... well then, it must be super simple to prove it, right? Well then, what are they waiting for?
"what i have learned from these discussions is that the 4-5 nurse mains on this forum will try in every way possible to defend this stupid killer and her addons writing essays on unrealistic ways for casual pub survivors to counter a killer that ignores the only resources they have to win the game."
Reading this, how can we not help thinking that you have never played as a nurse on a regular basis, and that you will never show us videos of you facing a nurse either...
"basekit nurse can be fun to go against without all this bs"
Here we go ... actually, what you want is to be able to quietly Hold W with an asthmatic nurse in tow, and laugh in your corner because "Oh my god, I'm so god, the naughty nurse can't catch me."
not true I never see anyone complaining about oni, spirit, artist, blight etc... good ones can destroy teams easily, they complain because it's not fun survivors are slow and have nothing to use except pallets and windows, she ignores everything OP or not it's still not fun
Are you kidding? The game hasn't waited for you to start and evolve.
Spirit used to be a fun killer with some nice mind games. (Although if I loved versing her, I didn't like playing her very much). She had one or two busted add-ons (that should have been touched) and survivors were forced to mind-game and sometimes take a gamble.
Now she is still blind while phasing but survivors knows what she is doing. Surprise : she doesn't appear anymore which is as well because there is no fun versing her anymore either.
Friends? On this forum? HA, good luck, lol
I don't think it would be good to nerf Nurse nowadays. I think the game needs to go through massive changes before the only viable killer gets nerfed. SWF, bad map design, gen speeds, and broken survivor perks must be addressed first to make every (or at least most of) killer viable at the highest level.
I do agree that Nurse is levels above every other killer for her ability to ignore basic functions of the game, but it is just that killers, in general, are weak. When the game finally becomes balanced, I would pretty much be happy with a Nurse nerf as I do think that her ability is quite unhealthy for the game. For the nerf, you could either make her Matchbox add-on or her Torn Bookmark add-on (the original one, where you were unable to blink through solid objects) basekit.
Neither is broken though. Solo information should be buffed so every single survivor becomes "SWF" information level-wise, and rebalance around all survivors being SWF, instead of juggling solo vs SWF balance. SWF doesn't mean good teamwork, just that they can share information.
No restriction tournament: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/297338/statistical-evaluation-of-an-interesting-tournament/
This is just one, there are others, but this was one that blew up in big attention because it proved play at highest levels is even when both sides go all out. If you're curious about tournaments, Dead by eSports Discord organizes a bunch.
Your point exactly proves why she should not be on the game the way she is. She is outdated and was only fix for when there was infinities and pallets everywhere. Vut now she is not needed anymore as those things are gone and killers getting buffs and her last counters taken away dh and ds.
Variety is a good thing
People keep using this fallacious argument, but you are just wrong. Infinites never affected her. She doesn't loop normally. Whether or not infinites exist is irrelevant. It's not specifically she was particularly good at countering infinites. It's just she doesn't care about loop structure at all outside of LOS blockers. She was counterable regardless of infinites or not. Infinites not existing doesn't matter anymore. She doesn't auto win or auto lose on any tile.
Based off all of your prior comments it seems like you're just projecting and exposing yourself as somebody that also falls in that category. I don't see you doing much except being a hypocrite on this topic. You talk about how people want to keep their side more powerful but your only talking point is "She's OP because we said she is. You're lying about people not knowing how to play against her. Korean Servers. Its mostly good players that are complaining. Korean Servers."
Why don't you link some gameplay? I have linkable Survivor gameplay to dig up in the vault against good Nurses and I'm sure others do too. Nothing about Nurse's basekit is OP, she just has a handful of oppressive addons and why do you think those are even popular in the first place? Maybe its because 95% of the other ones suck and provide no value so there's no real incentive for the best players not to use them. They're literal memes that gimp you in exchange for more bloodpoints or just don't have a useful side effect in this version of the game. All they need to do is give a complete addon rework and she's good to go. They could even consider her hits as an M2 and she'd still be fine
Pallets and flashlights still work against her, breaking LoS is common knowledge at this point and still extremely viable, mindgaming a mindgame works all the time as no player in the world is going to land 100% of their blinks in every match, playing stealthy works against her too
People will tell a Killer to 'get better' or 'stop whining' about Survivors that go out of their way to stealth more than they take chases but now the same people are upset that there's still a character that makes it a bad idea for them to constantly do the opposite. Stop treating Nurse like the weaker Killers on the roster and I guarantee you will die less regardless of if she's good or not. Part of being at the skill ceiling as Survivor is knowing that you can't just play aggressive 100% of the time and loop/gen-jockey your way out of every scenario. This is yet again a prime example of how people are upset that a Killer has a kit that dissuades people from mindlessly playing aggressive or trying to force a chase at their leisure
There's a huge difference between 'This Killer is overpowered because its physically impossible to win against her' and 'This Killer is strong because she doesn't allow Survivors to play the same style that they enjoy the most'. Its not impossible to win against her even with her strongest addons but even if they do get changed (which they should) how is her basekit OP? Hint: It's not. Link your gameplay where you make all the correct decisions for an entire match and still died to a good Nurse. You won't because there's always multiple choices in a game that could've been better and this goes for both Killers and Survivors
Range addons significantly mitigate nurse's primary counterplay.
Nurse's attacks being special attacks is bad because she is one of the best chaser's in the game and letting perks that are limited to basic attacks function on her leave them in a limbo where they are OP on her and okay on other basic attack killers, or balanced on her and bad on others.
Nurse won't be touched because it's the go-to crutch for killers who need their ego stroked. They like to think they're good because "Nurse is difficult" (she isn't) and "she requires a lot of skill to win" (she doesn't). If being as broken and ridiculous as she is you already have people dedicated to professionally whine 24-7 on this forum for a living, imagine if she was actually a fair and balanced killer.
Who's whining? You?
Don’t let her go through pallets. It would give survs a small counterplay throwing pallets after her first blink.
Or, don't touch the nurse, and up the other killers very slightly 😉
Or maybe some people just like to play it ... it's amazing how far we go in terms of selfishness ...
That's a long way of saying you're dogwater at the game. People like you should be required to link your gameplay when making such ridiculous statements. Provide evidence or at least logic to explain your stance, not random crying
Shrodingers' Nurse:
- The Nurse player is good at Nurse.
Or
- The Nurse player sucks at playing Nurse.
There is no in-between.
Nurse is fine. She's either god tier or absolute garbage. She's necessary, unless you want survivors winning every game. She's the only killer who gives good survivors a run for their money, because she ignores their defenses, which no other killer can do to the same extent. Unless they're planning on majorly buffing every killer to compensate for a Nurse Nerf, she should be left as is.
She forces survivors to play differently, which is good for the game, even if survivor mains with their numerous second chance perks think otherwise. No, looping and holding W key should not win you every match, sorry. Nurse punishes survivors who get too cocky thinking they're gods, leveling the playing field. Plus, she already was nerfed. So she's fine. Adapt, and learn to play against her.
BHVR has changed achievements in the past. Remember "Where Did They Go?" That was the achievement for all 4 Survivors escaping through the hatch.
OP: "Let's have an actual discussion!"
*fair amount of people decide to say something like "only small people defends nurse their opinion is invalid" for some reason*
OP should have moderated his thread if he was being genuine about wanting an actual dialogue.
Just putting words in my mouth and misrepresenting what I said. And that gets several upvotes. These nurse mains will even upvote nonsense lol.
She ignored everything so back then so she was band aid fix for that problem. But now dbd is changed every patch more and more killer sided so that means nurse is just getting stronger and stronger. She needs to be reworked fine change would be to start an m1 killer with 115% movement speed and earn her power. Oni has second bes power in game and he has to earn it so it's ridicious nurse can just start with it. Oni could start with his power to make him more viable at higher mmr where survivors just pre drop every single pallet and still he would much weaker than nurse.
Maybe you didn't even read what you linked. The person who made that post about the "tournament" also said nurse is OP. So...ok.
The "buff solos to SWF and low tier killers to nurse level" is a terrible, terrible idea, I don't know why it gains any traction here. A game where each side is OP is not fun.
I have linked my twitch account multiple times here. It is always greeted the same way. The nurse players realize I am much more experienced than them and suddenly change the topic. The only time I have seen nurse gameplay from one of the nurse main defenders it was a disaster, a player who could barely move their camera to look behind them, and yet they still want to give much more experienced players advice on how to play well.
I never ever said that only good players play on the Korean server. Why must you twist my words to feel like you are making a point? Doesn't that mean your reasoning is super weak..?
The last three paragraphs are all nonsense, so I won't speak to them, but you seem to have read my prior comments. When have I ever said her basekit, the way she blinks should be nerfed?
I believe that:
Map addons need to be disabled for both sides. Too often map offerings are used by both sides to tilt the game way in their favor.
Many maps need to be shrunk
Blight's several busted addons need a rework
Nurse's busted addons need a huge nerf. Her attacks should not trigger perks. If this is not enough of a nerf, after some testing, she shouldn't have her power at the very start of a match, like dredge. Maybe give her 4.4 speed in that time.
SWF should be shown as a group in the lobby for the killer
Healthy grabs on unhooks should be removed from the game. This only promotes skilless face camping
While still keeping their randomness, all maps need to have their resources better situated. Sometimes the same map can be super killer sided, sometimes super survivor sided, just based on how things spawn and connect to each other.
Survivor perks should not be stackable.
The only one of my ideas that gets any backlash is the nurse one. The only possible reasoning is that these nurse mains don’t want to lose their busted toy. Too many of you don't realize how horrid playing as solo queue and a low tier killer on a strong survivor map is.
I have been consistent in always saying the same opinions as above.
If you gonna "rework" her entirely, it's always better to put it as new killer.
Realistically speaking, her existence is NOT hurting this game, really.
Yes, the OP killer with a negative kill rate. Could've fooled me.
Also, they don't need to be buffed to Nurse's level. Even just re-balancing the game and buffing them would be able to bring most killers to an A-A+ level, which is sufficient. Also, you still have this weird assumption that SWF and Nurse are OP. They're only better-performing in comparison because the game is currently juggling balance between solo and SWF. If survivor's side is merged into being just SWF by buffing their information, it allows for balancing around that instead of both solo and SWF. Weaker killers struggle against very good SWFs. Solo survivors struggle against very good S-tiers. Thus, make all survivors SWF, and buff weaker killers. Simple.
"I'm not gonna bother reading because I have no counter-argument to all the facts you're spitting."
There, I summarized your garbage response for you. Also, nobody twisted your words, maybe you should reread before victimizing yourself. I never said that you said good players ONLY exist on Korean servers. Nurse is not OP, she has strong addons. This is very basic and easy to comprehend for 'experienced' players. I'm not reading anything else you write
Bringing up kill rate in regards to nurse shows you have no idea what you are talking about.
No, it was just nonsensical rambling.
Nurse player says nurse is fine. Okay. Gotcha, bud.
I think we just simply nerf range addons and see how everyone adjusts to that. It seems like a no-brainer that everyone agrees with.
Slightly won't make the cut for killers like Trickster and Myers. It may be enough for Blight, Artist, and Dredge but everything under the A tier needs much more than slight buffs.
I've already done that. I've pointed to a game where I played as Nurse, and one where I went against nurse. Should I do it in every thread? No. What a waste of time.
If you want to dig through my comments and look for them, go ahead.
But if you can't even recognize whether a player is solo queue or in a SWF, it doesn't really matter if I link it again.
I'm still waiting from some nurse gameplay from some of you nurse mains so I can give you some tips.
If you can't recognize how good a player is, what makes you think you can speak on game balance...
Please don't parrot the other nurse main without even watching the "2 year old video... (?)" It was a 5 gen 4k, only missed blinks due to survivor exhaustion perks.
I've shown my gameplay. If you want to lie about it to make yourself feel better, go ahead. I suggest you watch some more of it, though. You might learn how to turn your camera correctly.
What’s wrong with you?! Don’t you know he plays in Korea. That instantly makes him more believable. How dare you challenge his perspective!!!
Oman's posts give me a headache..but now I want to see this video. Hook a brother up?
I would have a headache too if I felt the need to defend something like nurse. It must be tough doing all those mental gymnastics..
If you really have time to waste, the name it provided was "omansonion".
edit: @foxsansbox weird, it was supposed to be a reply.
I completely agree, for sure some killers are much weaker than others; they should slightly up them case by case 😉
"So she's fine. Adapt, and learn to play against her."
This sentence sums it up so well that I think when I play my nurse, I'll rename my account like that ☺️
Unlike the Oni, who can still catch up with the survivors by walking normally if his power does not allow him to, the nurse cannot; this is the counter effect of his power ☺️
I am always amazed to read that what you want, in the end, is to turn the nurse into an easy-to-brain, easy-to-bully, easy-to-talk-about killer 🤨
How hard is it to accept that, 1) she's more complicated to deal with than other killers and 2) you should learn to play against her?
But if you still think she's OP, I'm waiting for your videos of games against her, so we can see your gameplay.
Because after all, you do rate the nurse as "OP".
Well, let us evaluate your gameplay against her, to see if it's so "OP" too.
By the way, I was teasing you, but I really think that showing us how you play against the nurse would allow you to improve, or at least to understand some things. Maybe some people wouldn't care about your videos, but others would be more than willing to advise you and help you improve!
As far as I'm concerned, the fact that you know how to play the nurse better than others will greatly increase your chances of getting through it, that's clear.
If four people who know how to play well against the nurse play together in SWF, their chances of win will inevitably be greatly increased, I agree.
That doesn't mean they'll always win; sometimes they might run into nurses who are stronger than they are.
And this is a very important point: the nurse, more than any other killer, can put a lot of pressure on the survivors very quickly, and can generate a much faster and more efficient snowball.
This means that if you want to fight effectively against a nurse, you must, as a survivor, be faster, more precise, more efficient, and more coordinated than if you were playing against a poor Caleb in Lery.
More than ever, the nurse is THE killer that requires survivors to be a team player.
So yes ... against 4 soloQ's who don't know how to counter the nurse, the nurse is in for a treat.
But is it her fault? Absolutely not.
Just like proposing that the nurse does not have her power at the beginning of the game.
I don't understand: how does the fact that she can teleport at the beginning of the game mean the defeat of the survivors? I want to say: there is no connection. Especially because whether a nurse wins her game will be determined by many other parameters.
The fact to show the killer that he is about to play against a SWF ... I'm divided: as much as it would allow the killer to choose to play more "quietly" ... but it could also penalize the chill SWFs, who just want to have fun and not bully the killer, by risking to lengthen their waiting time excessively
Unless you set up a reward system for the killer who agrees to play against a SWF, and a reward for the SWFs every time a killer leaves their lobby 😉
I do agree about the map addons though.
However, sometimes I do like to play on this or that map ... so why not a new addon, which would be the opposite of the existing one?
For example :
"Computer bug: burning this offering will greatly reduce the chances of you getting to the Lery Memory Institute."
This would keep the randomness of the maps, while allowing a survivor/killer to have some choice about where to go.
Oh I don’t know about that one lmao
Oh, was it you who proposed that great map offering idea? I can't remember who came up with it.
I don’t think I talked about it here, but it is an idea I have for a long time 😊
People that think their anecdotal data trumps large amounts of gameplay data from even skill matches both in and out of tournaments will never not be amusing.
I think most people rarely ever experience a basekit Nurse, they don't realize that she's not all that strong when she doesn't have ranged addons. Her ranged addons are 100% a problem, they need to be completely removed because they are too strong. The next most popular would obviously be green recharge/purple ranged, and again, I don't think green recharge should be nerfed on account of ranged addons.
Second would be recharge addons. I think recharge addons bring her somewhat closer to her old basekit, and I think that you also rarely encounter a double recharge Nurse, who will play more aggressive/play more risky in a chase because of them. Double recharge I think is probably fine, however I would also nerf them and simply give her a 30% recharge as basekit, or just the same amount as green/yellow recharge, depending on what the addon nerfs look like.
I think a lot of people who hate Nurse, or people who play her against bad survivors, have this opinion that she's super easy and that anyone can do it despite the fact she was the least picked killer with the lowest killrates even before her nerfs. It's easier to further push the nerf narrative if a bunch of people attempt to convince everyone she's easy. I think like many people most people simply are bad at this game and never learned to properly juke at specific places or in general, to the point you can last a little bit in a chase against a Nurse while your teammates to gens.
At the end of the day I'd like to see some statistics for killers like Nurse and Blight if we were seriously considering nerfs, because I'm of the same opinion with Blight, in that a basekit Blight is actually not that bad to deal with either.
As one final point I will say Nurse should not be able to every use any perk that allows her to one shot a survivor with a blink attack.
Nerf player skill