Alphasoul05
Alphasoul05
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- Alphasoul05
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It's the same reason I scoff at people who say they get tunneled every game. I can guarantee you they have no idea what tunneling is, or they're leaving out some detail that makes killers want to tunnel them in the first place. But it doesn't stop there because you have to understand that if the killer is having a rough time, they're going to tunnel someone or they'll just lose in the first place, and while that is tunneling, I suggest you don't confuse someone who feels forced to do it with someone who does it right from the start. But some people have a very difficult time understanding why someone does or does not do something.
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Yeah, sure, IF you're the kind of survivor who likes to have fun like that. Most people? Most people will just throw pallets early and not play that game with a curve Billy. Still don't understand why overheat is a mechanic when it discourages more people playing Billy and learning to curve in the first place.
But yeah, it is fun for both sides
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Ranged addons + a blink that ignores all fundamental mechanics functioning with insta-downs. Yes, great job highlighting the busted aspects of Nurse people have been constantly complaining about that do need to be changed.
That is, at least, a good place to start and test things. You'd be surprised the amount of people who play Nurse who wouldn't get very far if they didn't have access to ranged addons.
I mean if you're my teammates, you give up against a ton of things you shouldn't for no real reason.
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Nothing more BHVR than removing BP perks because they "totally reduced the grind" and created matchmaking incentives, but they're bugged so there's actually nothing that helps. Not like you'd ever see an incentive as a killer anyway.
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Uh, actually that's MMR working. I think it's hilarious you don't think that them being on a winstreak as showing a serious flaw in the balance of SWF, yet you'll use a Nurse that beats them as the problem. Lmao. I mean plenty of killers go on winstreaks as many different killers, so, you know, should we pull up some of Otz old killer winstreaks and use them as justification to nerf like.. the entire killer roster?
Like, go ahead and make an argument, but don't use one video of people losing as your logical explanation for it.
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Local man has a bad game, then immediately opens up the DBD forums to post an incoherent rant. More, at 11.
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I think this patch kind of highlights the need for BHVR to place changes on a PTB, or at the very least guys, ask your fog whisperers for feedback. It did not take long for the community to immediately be capable of understanding why some of these changes either make no sense, or just plain don't help. I know that this community can be difficult to use their opinions and knowledge to balance the game, but like.. I dunno.
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Um. Considering the other, better perks those two killers could be using, I would be happy if they're choosing to use LP.
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Capybara survivor when?
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Why don't you just cleanse, and in turn your teammates should cleanse in reaction? Then it's just a matter of trying to not get caught in the open/pre-drop pallets or do your best to hit a stun when she's in her power.
I'm going to be honest, I don't think killers like Plague/Legion are strong enough to warrant nerfing specific perks that make them stronger. You know a lot of problems people have could probably be fixed if we limited gen regression perks to 1/2 and strengthened them all around that idea.
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17k gained in June (Tons of BP events)
12k loss in July.
13k Gained July 2021
11k loss August 2021. Still a gain. Another Event/BP drop.
If you look throughout history you'll see plenty of gain/loss ratios, that aren't BIG NUMBER, but that's a trend. There's actually only one point in history where it actually double gained 6k/6k and retained those numbers. I suggest you pay more attention to statistics before you try to use them as an example of a bad patch where everyone is leaving. It just makes you look really ignorant and grasping for straws.
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1 year = history
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@Firellius said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3105845#Comment_3105845
So the real problem is, "How do we allow killers to tunnel and camp without it being oppressive, while also making sure killers have a chance to win without those strategies?" My stance was, and still is, to make going for hooks over kills viable. That means not nerfing perks like Pain Res and Pop, and that means making perks like Dying Light and Grim Embrace viable.
This is the problem I have with how forum killers approach camping/tunnelling. This is a very oft repeated argument: Just make going for hooks more effective.
And then they do. And tunnelling and camping become a bigger problem, and we're still on this argument.
Killers have been completely unwilling to concede anything for game health, at all. We've had loads of survivor nerfs over time, and a ton of them were accepted. Hatch is gone? Fine, it wasn't fun. DS getting its EGC usage clipped? Fine, that wasn't fun either. Removed Endurance stacking? Yeah, that wasn't fun either. Gen speeds are getting slowed? Risky, but if it helps killers have a better time...
Yet throughout everything that has been demanded to get removed from survivors, everything survivors agreed to give up to improve killer gameplay, throughout all of it, forum killers have been utterly unwilling to budge on the issue of camping and tunnelling.
Let me ask you: Why on earth do you want to keep tunnelling and camping?
According to you, and many others who defend this stuff, it's a bad tactic that doesn't work against competent survivors. If that is the case, then nerfing those tactics would ONLY improve the new player experience, and have zero effect on the higher ranks of play where these tactics are supposedly untenable.
In reality, camping and tunnelling are used as beatsticks and empty promises. If the devs do anything we don't like, we'll camp and tunnel more. If they do stuff we want, we'll totally tunnel and camp less.
And five nerfs later, camping and tunnelling will still be in the game. And they'll continue to be in the game, no matter how much survivors get nerfed or killers get buffed. They'll continue to be problems, and forum killers will continue to defend it with more 'maybe if the game was a bit easier for kilers, we'd camp less'.
The game is specifically designed in a way that you'll never really be able to stop people from camping or tunneling, it just isn't possible on a fundamental level. The developers themselves have chosen on their own that kills are more important than hooks, despite plenty of people championing the idea that the health of the game would be better if it were balanced around hooks. The keyword here is balanced, because you have to balance the game around an entirely different way and statistics that are completely different than kills/escapes, and it will never happen.
All this said I dislike the idea that camping and tunneling shouldn't be allowed. I think if a game is spiraling out of your control because the survivors are very good, then your literal best option to win is to tunnel someone or play smart. Well, if losing is so irrelevant, why bother doing gens? I think if you've got 3 survivors injured all doing gens, one on the hook, and they greed to do those 3 gens, then a killer shouldn't be punished for planting their ass in front of that hook to force a hook state/death, because those survivors chose to do gens rather than heal.
I mean what do we do here? Give every unhooked survivor, without the use of perks, 100% immunity until full healed, where they also can't touch a gen? Obviously you would have to give them 0 collision. Do we give any survivor in x radius to a hook damage immunity until they unhook another survivor, and then give them immunity to one shots after the unhook for x time? Just give people free saves, free escapes? And then do we say "Well, good killers don't camp and tunnel, so this should be fine anyway" or something?
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I don't know what people are going to do now that the random respect of a fellow online video gamer has been lost. How will I go on, knowing this horrific series of events?
Here's an alternate viewpoint: There being 4 survivors should not mean 2 kills 2 escapes = balance. That is a black and white, ignorant view to have in a 1v4 asymmetrical game.
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thanks random forum user for "calling it"
I am so proud of you. can I inquire as to your Twitter, so I can learn other valuable information? :o
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50+ matches where the killer slugged for the 4k, huh? That's an interesting statistic, since it implies you lived/spectated long enough every single match, every single game, for 50+ games, to see the killer do this. WoW!
There is nothing that was done to make anyone do this any more regularly than before. You know, I would often give the last survivor the hatch all the time when I played killer. I would get up, get a drink, come back. Sometimes I would just kick some walls or whatever. I would come back to a survivor doing a gen then getting in the hatch, I would find them waiting minutes just to teabag in some "gotcha" moment. And this happened all the time, all the time. I didn't really care because to me it was funny someone could be so dumb, but.. if that happened so often to me.. do you think it might make someone annoyed an slug for a 4k?
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I think there's plenty of factors that could've caused the increase in camping. MMR is one. I think how often this game gets new players, both survivor and killer, severely attributed to an overall drop in skill level as a whole in this game. I think that's why SWF is often so strong, because competent players play together and competent killers play less campy, maybe not always less tunnely. Plus I think people severely underestimate how toxicity causes people to become toxic themselves, and toxicity has never been something this game has not been. Hard to change a mentality so many people have.
I also think that a lot of people who say it happens every single game are overexaggerating and lying. You're probably far more likely to be done in by incompetent teammates. Sometimes there's a scenario where you go "Yeah, I would've done it in that situation too" or you might blame your teammate for becoming the immersed man, but.. it's just easier to blame the killer for not totally ignoring you.
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It's almost like nothing will ever prevent camping and tunneling. Who could've possibly seen this outcome? Also, when someone right under the main post says something like "SWF is only 5% of the population" that should tell you how uninformed and ignorant some people posting here are. That's just plain wrong :)
You can make it better, you can try to prevent it with perks or encouragement towards not, but people who want to do it will always do it, and this games design will never be able to stop it. It is and always will be part of the game, and that is bad for even killer mains because people who, ahem, "play fair" would just be punished by many restrictions and buffs to prevent it.
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The most obvious incentive is that the stronger solo queue is the more likely people won't feel like they can only play DBD if their friends want to play SWF.
The downside is, of course, it can make SWF even stronger if done incorrectly.
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So.. Start of the match every pallet is up, which means you can pull the killer for multiple gens. This varies based on the killer and their power, but in general it's not so easy to do this against a survivor with a brain.
So, let's assume you did catch them after a little bit. Okay, now you're proxying a hooked survivor. All 3 survivors sit on gens, before that first survivor goes 2nd state, one survivor goes and unhooks said survivor before state shift. Your options: Tunnel that survivor who was unhooked through Endurace/potential DS, where they can drag you to a strong loop/pallet, or more likely trade with the unhooker due to getting an early hit by proxy camping.
Now you've lost 2 gens and have a new survivor on the hook. Injured survivor sits on a gen with another non-injured survivor, pops that gen, injured survivor does the gen with the other person, while the non-injured does the same as the first, they trade. They trade, and trade, and sit on gens until you have no gens. You lose.
Therefore the most efficient strategy would be to tunnel 1 person who DID have Endurance/BT, even hoping they don't have it. Yes, sure. Clearly that would be the better strategy, but it all hinges on at least one perk not existing and them being incompetent at looping, which can be likely. Most likely scenario? If the survivors sit on gens the whole time you will get that kill and have 1 gen left.
In any case "99%" requires it to not be SWF, unskilled survivors, or a survivor who just plain gives up. I suppose if you happen to find the weakest link it's even easier. But this is not a guaranteed strategy like you make it out to be. I mean if you wanna do this just play LF, catch someone early with Lethal and SF/Endurance, camp them to death and no one can save.
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The meta shifted into a point where even bad players could win because if you're efficient on gens and hold W/pre-drop pallets, it can take you real far. So many survivors these days don't even understand the BASICS of this game, or proper ways to counter killers, or proper ways to complete gens and not 3 gen yourself. Severe lack of common sense, severe lack of willingness to LEARN and IMPROVE. Play solo queue, watch your teammates when you're on a hook, realize how bad it really is. 2 people injured on the team, killer is proxying because of it, non-injured person sits on a gen and doesn't save. Feel your IQ drop.
Killers are no different, that's why they constantly camp and tunnel. Sometimes you get a bad map with a bad layout, sometimes you made one too many mistakes, sometimes you're on a weaker killer, sometimes the survivors just played well and you lose. Sometimes you can improve and learn to accept that sometimes you lose, and maybe you'd enjoy the game more if you didn't resort to being a cheap player because of the big bad evil toxic survivors. Ironic
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An ex-comp player Nurse using ranged addons and the hyper aggressive slug build, has a massive winstreak on the best killer in the game, huh? This really the person you're going to use to justify deleting Nurse? I could look at this scenario and say "This might be avoidable if her blink attacks didn't work with Exposed effects, or her ranged addons were deleted" Though, he's already so good he'd probably do great regardless
I feel like this is the person every person thinks every Nurse player is. This guy is the definition of the 0.000001%
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I can't believe that thing that happened before the patch, is still happening after the patch. And will continue to always happen because nothing is going to magically make killers who tunnel and camp, not tunnel and camp.
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It's not, and SB is just as unhealthy as DH. You have absolutely zero fear of the killer, you can greedily sit on that gen as long as possible, then freely SB to your pre-determined safe spot. In fact, it turns a deadzone into a safer area since you often have an open sight to an approaching killer, too.
It has the downside of having to walk, sure, but Lithe has the downside of requiring a vault, Head On has the downside of requiring time and proper timing, BL has the downside of requiring height. DH's requirement was that you were injured, and since everyone gets injured eventually, well, it didn't have a downside.
At the end of the day dealing with SB isn't frustrating. You don't feel robbed, you don't feel annoyed, you don't feel they were really rewarded for outplaying you, or playing indirectly greedy. It doesn't severely impact a chase.
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@MilManson said:
Killers have realised the gens are still just as fast as before and survivors are realising it as well so there's no reason not to run slowdown.
I know I haven't stopped using them else 3 gens pop super fast still and I tried to not use slowdowns on patch day and got gen rushed when I didn't.
They wouldn't have nerfed some slowdown and buffed others if the developers themselves weren't fully aware slowdown is necessary. If you're going to stack slowdown perks you're still sacrificing other perks/builds that would be far more beneficial to you. If by some random miracle slowdown wasn't necessary, then it would create a lot more unique build variety, which would bring its own new strength to a lot of killers as well. Might even be more unfun.
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There's 4 survivors, so whenever you make a strong perk that runs the risk of being very strong, you can run into serious balance issues due to that
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BBQ is a meta perk that I would say is overall healthy, in that it does not directly grant you a large benefit immediately as a perk like Floods of Rage. It encourages you to not camp, you can sometimes hide behind a gen, in a locker, or just use Distortion/move away from where you are, assuming you're willing to stay off a gen for 10 seconds. Or ex-meta perk at this point. Sometimes it's good to ask yourself if it's good a perk is or isn't meta, because would you prefer a killer fill a perk slot up with BBQ over something else?
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Here's what I think, I think this game needs to be pushed into the direction of encouraging survivor/killer interaction. Chases should be the core concept of this game. You can't complain about the fundamentals in doing gens as a survivor when that is what you spend most of your time doing. What if pallets respawned? What if the killer couldn't hook you, and the focus was on getting your teammates up and trying to deal with the killer always sort of being on someone?
These are just random things off the top of my head but.. the problem a lot of people seem to have is they want it both ways. You hate gens taking forever, you hate slowndown, so what do you want? Barely any killer interaction, barely any gen interaction, easy escapes? Maybe if we thought about this game from a different perspective it could be something better. I just don't think that the things people complain about are ever going to amount to anything but the same thing moving forward, judging by the current opinions. But at the end of the day.. if you can only view this game from the perspective of "I have to escape to have fun/win. I have to kill 3-4 survivors to do so, too" well, I guess that's fine.
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The basekit BT is there mostly for newer players, or those who don't have access to perks like OTR/BT. If tunneling is still such a massive issue, put one of them on if you see nothing but tunneling every game. The basekit BT isn't there for you to have a very strong effect for free.
Gens are not too long, an extra 10 seconds per gen in the grand scheme of the game is not long at all. If you're going to complain, direct your complaints to specific gen regression perks or combos if you feel they're too strong.
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Solo Q absolutely is an issue and it's about time we seriously get the developers to start taking the complaints about it seriously. You don't have to start big, but small things, like Kindred basekit, would go a long way.
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Considering they don't balance the game around people who play the game for a living, my guess is those statistics, while fun, would be worthless
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LF, Wraith, Trickster. But that's mostly because they're the ones I encounter the most that do nothing but sit near a hook every time.
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I have seen multiple people using OTR and it plays out like this, every single time. They bodyblock the killer, the killer tunnels them, they don't have DS, they die.
Honestly, Endurance is the perfect example of something meant to be used for you to use that time to get far away, since the killer will assume you have it and chase the savior. But people choose to abuse it, and use it as a means to block a hit for someone else, which isn't inherently a bad idea, but that probably wasn't its intent. Having a perk that lets you take a hit doesn't mean you should go out of your way to attempt to take one.
Now, different story if it's a 4 sec basekit BT or you're not actively running toward a killer otherwise ignoring you.
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Disagree. Basekit Nurse feels absolutely terrible to play. It isn't even a winning, losing, or balance thing, it just feels too slow. It's actually quite an unfun experience, I suggest you try it against higher MMR survivors. You won't enjoy it, even if you win. Most people don't understand a basekit Nurse because you never see one, but if you did you'd be happy because you'd probably escape most of the time on most maps.
Her range addons absolutely are a problem, and I'd say they're the biggest reason even a bad Nurse can land their blinks due to the speed of travel and distance. That and her blinks should not count towards a single insta-down perk.
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Nice. I actually won 2000 games out of 2005 games without gen regression. Trust me, you can believe it.
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I'm curious, if it was only DH and DS nerfed, and none of the killer buffs happened outside of the perk changes, would you be happy?
Do you see any benefits in the killer changes as a whole? Do you see more varied killers, despite the slow down builds you're encountering, or do you still see the same ones the most? I see a lot of people focusing on the negatives but I wonder if you ignore any of the benefits.
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compelling argument. Specifically I really liked the part where you discussed that it was 'too much for survivors' and they 'don't stand a chance' really thought provoking stuff here
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You.. do realize this problem isn't specific to Nurse, right? That any killer could do this exact thing? Really scraping the bottom of the barrel here, aren't we?
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stop doing that thing that people have been doing since the game has existed!
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I mean you're ignoring that some of the changes do help solo queue. For example, Ruin meant absolutely nothing to SWF because it effectively meant one person would look for Ruin, and if someone was on a progressed gen and being chased, that person looking for Ruin would then hop on the gen and finish it.
Ruin was really hard on solo queue because if you were solo and on a gen, you absolutely had to commit to a gen and not save, even if you should, as one example. I don't disagree solo needs some serious love, but the fact is this game is balanced around the idea of gen regression existing. If you thought, or think, it will ever go away then you are very wrong.
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There are a lot of maps in this game with a lot of variations, so the amount of time and effort it would take to balance them isn't worth it to BHVR, especially with no money in it for them. Of course, this doesn't stop them from constantly releasing terrible new maps/reworks because they don't understand how to really design a map fairly.
Think about how large most maps that are released are. They could've easily released a few smaller ones with a different design philosophy, to test the waters, but they don't even do that. So do you really think they'll ever resize/rebalance maps?
Besides, smaller maps are a problem as a whole by virtue of all the band aid fixes they've introduced, specifically with perks. Not to mention the strength it would give to anti-loop/ranged killers or already high tier killers.
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Problem is camping when it makes 100% sense to by people who rarely camp is ruined by people who just camp all of the time. The entire goal of this game is to put people on a hook, so there is no logical way you can do anything about camping where your goal is to kill someone.
Some people have very drastic suggestions for it that end up punishing your average killer, and that I just can't get behind. You can't even really discourage it because if someone wants to camp they're going to camp, even if it isn't a good idea to do so.
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Even losing 2-3 gens after one normal length chase against a good survivor is a really bad feeling. At that point you will have serious issues getting control of the match, for no fault of your own, which results in a hgher likelyhood of camping and tunneling if you want to win.
Arguably, the first gens are also the easiest, and depending on the survivors skill, your own, the map, the killer you play, it's not hard to get pressure rolling and turn it around. It happens a lot, actually. Of course, that scenario isn't going to happen if every survivor can loop as well as the first. Sometimes you're just going to lose, like in any game.
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It does seem a bit silly a big, threatening killer can't pick up a downed survivor just because another survivor is healing them. Besides, if the killer wants to pick them up it isn't like there isn't counterplay with a flashlight or bodyblocking - often being a bad idea
I don't think it's bad to talk about this stuff, there's a lot of minor things in the game like this that people never discuss
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Any time any drastic nerfs have ever happened in this game it's what the people upset about say. But they continue to play, the playerbase continues to grow, and people realize.. that a vocal minority does not represent the majority of the playerbase.
Some people would rather do the same thing for 10 years straight because it's strong, than ever accept that it's a problem
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I generally tend to avoid killers who are countered by running away from a loop and holding W, because there's very little meaningful interaction Dredge isn't so bad because you can make use of his power in a chase, but it's not going to be that effective on a good survivor. He's definitely fun, and decently strong, so I can see the appeal.
Personally I really dislike that there is no downside for freely locking lockers, because that is a part that does make the point I said about being able to use his power in a chase weaker. At the very least a lock shouldn't stop him when he's in Nightfall, or they should take a second or two to lock.
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@SekiSeki said:
Passive gen regression will always be good. Ruin will still be used.
I don't think it will be when you consider all the other options you have now, and those options also make something like setting up a 3 gen easier. There's no risk, there's a constant benefit, as opposed to Ruin, which gives what equates to a kick onto every gen. Anything that only does what a kick does to a gen, even if it can apply to all of them, is inherently very weak for a Hex that can be destroyed
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Try bad teammates with a Nurse every second game you play, that's a real pleasure. In short, enjoy your misery. To be honest I have no clue how anyone can get higher in MMR in this game if you weren't already in high MMR, but it isn't like you magically get more competent people there, either.
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You realize it's just a game and you move on. Nothing you say or do will ever change people being toxic on one side or the other, so the best thing you can do is learn how to not let it bother you. I'm not going to go out and be toxic because I ran into someone else who's toxic because I don't want to be associated with that type of mentality. That type of thinking is why it bothers you in the first place.
It's a video game. You're an adult. Get over it.
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That's not too bad but why is PTB + BS so slow, when in comparison to non-PTB + BS the speed is so drastically different?