We reduced the grind!! (except we kinda didn't) Part 2 Bloodpoint Boogaloo
Howdy folks, it's your favourite angry DBD nerd here to be annoyed a second time. I made a post after the "grind reduction" was first announced, where I did some math to determine that the grind reduction seemed to be in name only:
@KnotEnthusiast said:
So BHVR has announced their new reworked perk and BP system, claiming that at long last they have cut down on the grind. How wonderful! But I do have one question: who has it cut down the grind for? Cuz from what I can tell, most players will actually suffer from this new system, as long as you're striving to have complete builds. An example:
Lets say I'm John Q Newplayer, and I just installed DBD. I really like anime, want to flex that I know what the word "kanabo" means, and would like the katana I bought at my local strip mall to feel like it was worth the purchase, so I want to pick up Oni! But I want to have the option to play any way I want, so I want all of the perks on him. How hard will it be for me to do that?
Well under the old perk system, it was a heck of a feat. I had to get every killer, level up to level 40 on each one. Then take my boi Oni, and just keep leveling him until I had all perks. With the current system, that means I have to buy every perk 3 times to get the max level. Since there are 97 perks including the generics, I need to buy 291 perks. But! After level 40, I can get two perks per bloodweb, doubling my progress. So after 39 levels I have 42 perks (you get your 3 t1 perks for free), which means I have 249 to go, which I can do in 125 bloodwebs. So my final level count to unlock all of this is:
40 levels on each of the 28 killers, which is 1120. Add the 39 and 125, and you get 1284 levels. Dang, that's a grind! Now lets see how much the new system reduces it!
Now, teachables are gone, and everything is dictated by prestige. Heck yeah! So if I want all perks on my boi Oni, all I have to do is get P3 on every killer, then get the 15 levels to unlock Oni's 4 perk slots, and I'm in business. Math is pretty easy on this one, just get every single killer to P3 level 1, which is essentially level 150. So 28*150+15 equals...
4215. Thats....a lot. Way way more than 1284.
"But KnotEnthusiast!", I hear you cry, "When you get all perks on one killer, you get them on everyone!" And that is true! But all you have to do to get all perks on every killer is the 126 bloodwebs (because you got them all to level 40 for the teachable, but buying the 2 teachables cost you two perks). So if you keep doing that, then you can get all perks on 23 killers before you even get close to the same number of levels as getting all perks in the new system:
1284+126*23 = 4182 levels.
But hey, at least that's something, right? While it might be worse at first, after 24 killers you're making profit! And there's also an argument to be made that the bloodwebs from levels 1-30 are significantly less expensive than those at 50 up, reducing the effect a good bit. But there's one issue:
BBQ AND CHILI'S BONUS IS GONE.
Because of the "reduced" grind, the BP bonus from BBQ is gone. So if you were someone who ran the perk frequently (IE, literally everyone), then congrats, your BP gain has effectively halved. So all of the levels required in the new system are essentially doubled, making the total even more ridiculous. Not to mention that addons, items and offerings now essentially double in price for the same reason.
Another example: a vet player with all perks unlocked, when a new killer comes out. If you want their teachables on another killer, then you need to level them up 150 times. Whereas beforehand, it was 40 times, then whatever killer you wanted their teachables on either 5 or 6 times depending on entity RNG. So again, worse case scenario you can get the new perks on 18 killers (40+6*18 = 108) before you start reducing the grind at all, not factoring in the BBQ bonus loss.
I hope I'm missing something, because honestly this new system with the loss of the BBQ/WGLF bonus feels worse than the prior system. Plus you can no longer level one killer/survivor completely then use them to grind, you have to do everyone at once.
TL;DR: The "grind" has barely improved if at all based on the perk rework, and if you factor in the loss of BBQ or WGLF, then it has actually gotten worse.
This discussion was responded to by @Peanits :
@Peanits said:
There's one huge point you're missing with the new system: Once you've prestiged for the first time, a character's teachables are instantly unlocked at tier 1 and tiers 2 & 3 can be found in the bloodweb.
So in this hypothetical scenario where you're starting from scratch and only care about getting all perks on your Oni, you actually don't need to prestige all the others three times. You can prestige once with them and go right back to leveling up your Oni (even giving his Tier 3 perks to every other Killer in the process).
So the numbers would actually look like this:
27 * 50 = 1350 (levels to P1 all other Killers)
(84 * 2) + 39 = 207 (perk tiers to be found on your Oni)
40 of the bloodwebs will be between levels 40-50 and feature two perks.
So all in all, you'd need: 1350 + 207 - 40 = 1517 levels, the majority of which are smaller levels and not full sized level 50 ones, to get all the perks on your Oni.
And should you ever decide that Oni's not your cup of tea anymore and start working on your other Killers, you've only done an extra 57 Bloodwebs, so you haven't wasted a ton of time. The numbers very quickly start to turn in your favor after the first Killer.
Who said that the fact that you could get all killers to P1 and then level accordingly in the most efficient way possible would result in substantial BP gains as you leveled up more and more killers. So I've been thinking about that, and because I am a total nerd and dislike losing my sweet sweet BBQ bonus, I figured I'd actually calculate that value.
So! We can start by explaining what the most efficient way of getting all perks on every killer, then calculate the number of levels required, then compare them to the current method. I'm also going to ignore inherent inefficiencies in starting out leveling, such as that before you unlock any teachables in the new method, a small number of levels will be wasted on bloodwebs that have no perks, as you will not have enough perk levels to fill every bloodweb up to 50. I also will assume you get the RNG that results in the most favourable amount of bloodwebs possible, and no perks get eaten. I'll also be calculating for killer, because there are fewer and therefore less work.
Most efficient level up method in the new system:
Much like the most efficient method in the current build, the best way to get all perks starts with getting all teachables on every killer. So, every killer goes up to level 50, then prestiged. But once we hit this point, then things get a bit more complicated:
Between P1 and P3, there exist 100 levels that will unlock 120 perk tiers. However, as you P3 more and more killers, the number of perks you have to buy to complete a killer drops, as you unlock more teachables by P2 and P3ing. So to get the most optimal leveling system, you have to find the balance between leveling up killers to P3 to remove their tiers from later bloodwebs, but not so many that you're wasting BP that didn't need to be spent. So, being a good nerd, I did what I had to do:
I MADE A SPREADSHEET.
BPmaths.xlsx
Using this spreadsheet, I found that P3ing either 14 or 13 killers resulted in the least BP used, at roughly 3458 levels used. Notably less than the current 4182, but nowhere near the magical 75% reduction that the devs keep touting, and not even close enough to warrant the loss of BP bonuses on perks. This also isn't counting the new 50k BP fee to prestige, which is basically just an extra level that provides no perks to your total. I'd love to have my maths proven wrong, so if anyone sees a mistake, let me know.
TL:DR: I made a spreadsheet to find that the grind has reduced 18%, from 4182 levels required to 3458, not the magical 75%. According to Peanits, this should have been the most BP saved, but I'm still hard pressed to see how this new system required that BBQ and WGLF needed to be nerfed. This feels like the BP grind is simply going to get much worse, and urge the devs to make their BP bonuses base kit.
Comments
It is 4th of July weekend and I don’t know much about Canadas calendar but there probably on holiday right now
Unlike Survivors going to the basement against a Bubba.
Maybe make so prestige for survivors and killers become different, as survivors are just reskins then you could share the tier 3 perks at prestige 1. As killer i dont mind it, as every killer has a different way to play and most of the time people dont tend to stick playing with only one killer, so unlocking perks for all killers is something that really pays off.
Mad cuz you ate up this bait like a hungry little fishy?
That 50k BP cost, assuming you're playing normally, is 2-3 matches to earn. And you basically get nothing in return. I was the weird killer who never prestiged because I was never a fan of Prestige cosmetics. So for me spending 50k is a net loss, when my primary goal is to get as many perk options as possible on my killer to be effective in a match. This new system didn't do anything except cut the grind down for killers who only have 2 or 3 perks left to max out prior to prestige. Other killers who still have quite a ways to go get a small boost from level 1-15 (still only getting 1 perk per web though), then from there its back to business as usual dumping points. Just getting a feel of it from the PTB itself, it didn't reduce the grind. On top of that, killers who you didn't max out prior to this, will have to prestige all the way up for your more experienced killers to get their T3 perks. So, you're gonna have to go back and then dump boost 3 times as much BP on killers you may not even play to make up for the incoming loss to teachables.
And I'm not even gonna mention the ridiculous raised price of Iridescent shard perks.....
Devs can sometimes blow smoke up our asses, but this, sets up people to be chimneys.....
I would think if they're going to keep this plan they should
A) get rid of the 50k prestige tax (actually insulting, bhvr. ######### Jesus)
B) keep the bloodwebs at the level 50+ bloodwebs that exist. Don't drop it down back to the level 1 BS webs
C) Make it so you can't depip, so it's easier (and more fair) to get to a higher rank rewarding you for playing the game in the first place
And I say all this by being one of the few people benefiting from this change as I already have everyone p3'd and most with all perks. The ones I don't have all perks I have all universal perks (besides dredge/haddie who are close)
Another swing and miss by behavior. I have a sinking suspicion this patch may really ruin the game for many players. I get that some major changes were well overdue, but way too many head scratching decisions for this patch.
Good thing my grind is mostly done!
2022 bro 2022. Some people never grow up it seems tsc tsc
I agree with A, B and the most with C.
I would love the no depip change! I already basically do this myself by playing a meta Nurse build when I'm at 3 pips, but I would prefer to be able to meme around with Meyers or Clown whenever I want to instead of only playing low tier killers when I've just ranked up or when I'm already iri 1.
they aren't interested to cut off the grind otherwise they would have putted bbq and wglf bonus bp as default and they would have erased tier perks... the grind is one of the reasons why people still play this game (completist) and they tried to modify the grind aspect, make it less time wasting apparently but without changing it much in reality
That would be extremly unfair for killers.
Well if they don´t know that bubba is down there...
It simple. The new system is better, but don't touch bbq and wglf. Thank you.
I play 3 builds.
The main build for looping and chase.
An Item farming build and
An build for bp.
The changes will take a way an opinien and reduce me in what I am want to play. It will make me more to the gen rushing survivor, so I can get that 5k Bloodpoints for escaping. Means i will go out instead of helping the last one for only 1k bp.
And doing the stressful killer job for getting the same bp that i can get easy as survivor make me to a real survivor main then.
True, a useless Decisive in an update that should address anti tunneling is truly amazing. And don't get me started on Self Care
I do wish the catogories from bloodpoints were upped a little. So often something like devious maxes out halfway the match
Even something as small as increasing it from 8000 to 10000 per catogory and the max being 40000 per match would do so much
I always am a little annoyed at this notion that every developer I come across feels like they must be infallible and I’ve come across a lot of developers in my time. If they are beat in an argument their response is 100% of the time is to say nothing/run away. They never ever ever admit they made a mistake because they are infallible and admitting a mistake will lead to anarchy and chaos or something. Best case scenario they make changes six months later ‘coincidentally’ but they will never admit a mistake when directly challenged especially when the evidence is overwhelming.
As I’ve said numerous times in this thread, I actually do legitimately believe they thought these changes would reduce the grind but I think they grossly underestimated how impactful bbq and wglf are and have also focused extensively at the grind as a whole rather then the whole journey or how people play the game and what they actually want to unlock. In particular newer players are the ones who will lose out the most.
Unlocking loads of free tier 3 perks on survivors or killers I never play means nothing to me even though in technical terms it would count as ‘reducing the grind’.
The optimist would say that they're trying to figure out a solution to the issues put forth by the community before responding in full. The pessimist would say that they are actively ignoring criticism about the new grind because they don't have intention to change it.
I never prestiged a char, got all perks or most of them in the Killers I have and I have no idea how much blood points I used. Gotta tell you, only few perks are worth it.
So, after the changes , and after leveling Trickster to 50 I prestiged it. To earn whatever rewards they give to people who did.
I even put a thread here recently before the update where I literally asked if it was stupid to prestige. Which it is, the cosmetic ain't worth it.
Your meme is perfect, I salute you.
I hate math more than anything in life. Yet I know that it has helped in many things. For example proving the new grind for players hasn't changed much, will stop killers getting their better addons in blood web level 50s and constantly PAY TO PRESTIGE WHICH SHOULDN'T BE A THING BECAUSE IT WASN'T BEFORE!!!!!!
#########.
I'm honestly pleased someone took the time to download and check my work, so props :P
Hey I would but…
I’m more about logic then math but the logic didn’t add up here either.
Excel and data fan, I couldn't resist :P
Let's just do simple math
More BP = Player happiness will increase
Less BP = Player happiness will decrease
Perks being easier to get = Player happiness increase
So my final equations are
Removing perk tiers + Making BBQ and WGLF BP bonus basekit + removing 50k prestige fee = Increase of Player happiness
Having to unlock the same perk 3 times + getting less blood points + prestige fee = Decrease of Player happiness
So scientifically
More BP and being able to use perks = Happy gamers
I wonder when they/Peanits or anyone else will finally respond to the reworked statsheet. Still no official word from them.
i feel like they already would have if they were going to.
The optimist in me thinks they are taking feedback into consideration and will update ua next week ish when they give us an update on the patch.
The pessimist in me thinks they don't want to change anything and just want us to earn less BP so they can still have a hefty grind and hope people eventually stop caring.
It seems pretty simple really, though. They knew removing g the bp bonus would be unpopular. Did they not think there should be so.e compensation to keep players happy? I
It's still a holiday weekend right?
I still cant wrap my around the 50k for prestige btw
The entire world takes a full two weeks off to celebrate the Fourth of July.
peanits and mady have replied to other posts here, so they are definitely aware of the negative reception and rebuttals
The devs will probably make a statement on it soon, maybe it'll just be tweaked when the update is live. That's a very BHVR thing to do.
Maybe they'll fix it by adding motorcycles to the game.
Just give it time. People will realize how low BP gains are without BBQ and then they will flip a table. People complain that no one wants to play killer. I don't think cutting the BPs in half is going to incentivize people to play killer more. Literally no one is going to care about a tiny 25% matchmaking incentive. You get that from certain offerings that are relatively common. All they'll think about is how they could have had more with BBQ.
Atleast now we can prove that we only used BBQ for the Bloodpoints. :(
Something that came to mind the other day, didn't they say something in the anniversary stream that they want to do more small events, like log in bonus for a week and more?
Maybe they have in mind that they want to reduce the grind extra with that sort of stuff and therefor removed the BP bonus from the perks (which I don't agree with personally, but yeah).
I guess their silence makes it pretty clear that this wasn't just a misunderstanding but a deliberate move. It's just sad that a p2p game has to keep up such an artificial grind which resembles more the likes of a f2p live service game than a paid one.
I dont feel like this is happening anytime soon. With the amount of post up surely they know about it so they might just be working on something and not wanting to say anything till they figure it out there are plenty of post with ideas and suggestions however even some form of acknowledgment would be nice.
but the weird thing about this is them making the game super grindy helps no one, it would be one thing if they sold like BP packs or boosters because then you could go "well they don't wanna lower the grind cause instead of fixing the issue they wanna sell a solution" the thing most games do. However, the only money they make is on the license stuff and some cosmetics since everything else is possible to buy by just playing the game.
Them making and leaving the game super grindy isn't going to keep people hooked its just gonna turn people off aside from the people who just really really enjoy the game and those people are going to play regardless of the grind or not and they are also adding in a new grind with p4-p100 now for those types of people meaning it all makes even less sense now.
Huge respect to OP for the time and energy invested here!
Right off the bat, I never understood how unlocking 3 teachables at Lvl 50 was being advertised as 75% faster than unlocking 3 teachables by Lvl 40. Given the size of bloodwebs from Lvl 40 - 50, it should have been immediately apparent to anyone that the grind was doubling (if not tripling, with the removal of BBQ & WGLF bp bonuses).
This "grind reduction" update is incredibly tone deaf.
The playerbase is predominantly survivor--thus they do not care about having the grind reduced to max out every character. Most people, new players especially, want the grind reduced to unlock every teachable in the first place.
This update might alleviate my personal grind to P3 every character, but I'm lighting a candle for all the new players who have been screwed over by this change.
More days have passed and still no response after the OP prove that the rebuttal from Peanits was not accurate.
What is BHVR doing?
The grind is absolutely terrible and this update is just not sufficient.
Can we have a legitimate response?
It still costs more now because instead of stopping at level 40 to unlock perks you have to grind HUGE Bloodwebs from level 41 - 50 to unlock just a Tier 1 perk. So, 3 total times of having to grind level 41 - 50 Bloodwebs without BBQ or WGLF bonus Bloodpoint modifier. I guess thanks for attempting to help with the grind.
I've already unlocked all perks on a few of my survivors, should i go ahead and spend my 2 mill BPs on getting add ons right now or wait for the new system?
Oh and something ‘funny’ that everyone is going to just love the new system for unless they make it work differently.
Anyone who’s got a level 50 character and wants to buy something for them when this update hits?
ITS TAX TIME!
you tell me... I only have Nancy prestiged, no other survivor. I never thought it was worth it but most of my survivors are level 50 with most perks... paying 50k each is just a tragedy
this game has over 100 euro worth of dlc, overpriced cosmetics and bloated premium battle passes. Its not far off being a f2p game at heart.
Im waiting till this gets shut down cause spreadsheet man exposed the lies
That would mean admitting to doing something wrong. You think BHVR would do that without having an intention of damage control? Nah :)
I wish the grind reduction was real.
Their PR narrative was not received well as it contradicted factual mathematics. Their only options are to cover their ears, double down, and shout that it is better, or to completely ignore that there's still conversation happening about it.
So buckle up and get ready for a midchapter patch where absolutely nothing is done to touch this issue.
Holy cow... I am so upset about the grind I played 2000 hours of this game and there is so much I am still missing.
I have never seen a company like this one