We reduced the grind!! (except we kinda didn't) Part 2 Bloodpoint Boogaloo
Howdy folks, it's your favourite angry DBD nerd here to be annoyed a second time. I made a post after the "grind reduction" was first announced, where I did some math to determine that the grind reduction seemed to be in name only:
@KnotEnthusiast said:
So BHVR has announced their new reworked perk and BP system, claiming that at long last they have cut down on the grind. How wonderful! But I do have one question: who has it cut down the grind for? Cuz from what I can tell, most players will actually suffer from this new system, as long as you're striving to have complete builds. An example:
Lets say I'm John Q Newplayer, and I just installed DBD. I really like anime, want to flex that I know what the word "kanabo" means, and would like the katana I bought at my local strip mall to feel like it was worth the purchase, so I want to pick up Oni! But I want to have the option to play any way I want, so I want all of the perks on him. How hard will it be for me to do that?
Well under the old perk system, it was a heck of a feat. I had to get every killer, level up to level 40 on each one. Then take my boi Oni, and just keep leveling him until I had all perks. With the current system, that means I have to buy every perk 3 times to get the max level. Since there are 97 perks including the generics, I need to buy 291 perks. But! After level 40, I can get two perks per bloodweb, doubling my progress. So after 39 levels I have 42 perks (you get your 3 t1 perks for free), which means I have 249 to go, which I can do in 125 bloodwebs. So my final level count to unlock all of this is:
40 levels on each of the 28 killers, which is 1120. Add the 39 and 125, and you get 1284 levels. Dang, that's a grind! Now lets see how much the new system reduces it!
Now, teachables are gone, and everything is dictated by prestige. Heck yeah! So if I want all perks on my boi Oni, all I have to do is get P3 on every killer, then get the 15 levels to unlock Oni's 4 perk slots, and I'm in business. Math is pretty easy on this one, just get every single killer to P3 level 1, which is essentially level 150. So 28*150+15 equals...
4215. Thats....a lot. Way way more than 1284.
"But KnotEnthusiast!", I hear you cry, "When you get all perks on one killer, you get them on everyone!" And that is true! But all you have to do to get all perks on every killer is the 126 bloodwebs (because you got them all to level 40 for the teachable, but buying the 2 teachables cost you two perks). So if you keep doing that, then you can get all perks on 23 killers before you even get close to the same number of levels as getting all perks in the new system:
1284+126*23 = 4182 levels.
But hey, at least that's something, right? While it might be worse at first, after 24 killers you're making profit! And there's also an argument to be made that the bloodwebs from levels 1-30 are significantly less expensive than those at 50 up, reducing the effect a good bit. But there's one issue:
BBQ AND CHILI'S BONUS IS GONE.
Because of the "reduced" grind, the BP bonus from BBQ is gone. So if you were someone who ran the perk frequently (IE, literally everyone), then congrats, your BP gain has effectively halved. So all of the levels required in the new system are essentially doubled, making the total even more ridiculous. Not to mention that addons, items and offerings now essentially double in price for the same reason.
Another example: a vet player with all perks unlocked, when a new killer comes out. If you want their teachables on another killer, then you need to level them up 150 times. Whereas beforehand, it was 40 times, then whatever killer you wanted their teachables on either 5 or 6 times depending on entity RNG. So again, worse case scenario you can get the new perks on 18 killers (40+6*18 = 108) before you start reducing the grind at all, not factoring in the BBQ bonus loss.
I hope I'm missing something, because honestly this new system with the loss of the BBQ/WGLF bonus feels worse than the prior system. Plus you can no longer level one killer/survivor completely then use them to grind, you have to do everyone at once.
TL;DR: The "grind" has barely improved if at all based on the perk rework, and if you factor in the loss of BBQ or WGLF, then it has actually gotten worse.
This discussion was responded to by @Peanits :
@Peanits said:
There's one huge point you're missing with the new system: Once you've prestiged for the first time, a character's teachables are instantly unlocked at tier 1 and tiers 2 & 3 can be found in the bloodweb.
So in this hypothetical scenario where you're starting from scratch and only care about getting all perks on your Oni, you actually don't need to prestige all the others three times. You can prestige once with them and go right back to leveling up your Oni (even giving his Tier 3 perks to every other Killer in the process).
So the numbers would actually look like this:
27 * 50 = 1350 (levels to P1 all other Killers)
(84 * 2) + 39 = 207 (perk tiers to be found on your Oni)
40 of the bloodwebs will be between levels 40-50 and feature two perks.
So all in all, you'd need: 1350 + 207 - 40 = 1517 levels, the majority of which are smaller levels and not full sized level 50 ones, to get all the perks on your Oni.
And should you ever decide that Oni's not your cup of tea anymore and start working on your other Killers, you've only done an extra 57 Bloodwebs, so you haven't wasted a ton of time. The numbers very quickly start to turn in your favor after the first Killer.
Who said that the fact that you could get all killers to P1 and then level accordingly in the most efficient way possible would result in substantial BP gains as you leveled up more and more killers. So I've been thinking about that, and because I am a total nerd and dislike losing my sweet sweet BBQ bonus, I figured I'd actually calculate that value.
So! We can start by explaining what the most efficient way of getting all perks on every killer, then calculate the number of levels required, then compare them to the current method. I'm also going to ignore inherent inefficiencies in starting out leveling, such as that before you unlock any teachables in the new method, a small number of levels will be wasted on bloodwebs that have no perks, as you will not have enough perk levels to fill every bloodweb up to 50. I also will assume you get the RNG that results in the most favourable amount of bloodwebs possible, and no perks get eaten. I'll also be calculating for killer, because there are fewer and therefore less work.
Most efficient level up method in the new system:
Much like the most efficient method in the current build, the best way to get all perks starts with getting all teachables on every killer. So, every killer goes up to level 50, then prestiged. But once we hit this point, then things get a bit more complicated:
Between P1 and P3, there exist 100 levels that will unlock 120 perk tiers. However, as you P3 more and more killers, the number of perks you have to buy to complete a killer drops, as you unlock more teachables by P2 and P3ing. So to get the most optimal leveling system, you have to find the balance between leveling up killers to P3 to remove their tiers from later bloodwebs, but not so many that you're wasting BP that didn't need to be spent. So, being a good nerd, I did what I had to do:
I MADE A SPREADSHEET.
BPmaths.xlsx
Using this spreadsheet, I found that P3ing either 14 or 13 killers resulted in the least BP used, at roughly 3458 levels used. Notably less than the current 4182, but nowhere near the magical 75% reduction that the devs keep touting, and not even close enough to warrant the loss of BP bonuses on perks. This also isn't counting the new 50k BP fee to prestige, which is basically just an extra level that provides no perks to your total. I'd love to have my maths proven wrong, so if anyone sees a mistake, let me know.
TL:DR: I made a spreadsheet to find that the grind has reduced 18%, from 4182 levels required to 3458, not the magical 75%. According to Peanits, this should have been the most BP saved, but I'm still hard pressed to see how this new system required that BBQ and WGLF needed to be nerfed. This feels like the BP grind is simply going to get much worse, and urge the devs to make their BP bonuses base kit.
Comments
I don't understand why Behavior felt the need to make this all so... Convoluted and complex. Like, they made a whole new system and everything (which OP proved doesn't even work), when all they had to do was something incredibly simple like removing perk tiers, reducing the cost of items in the bloodweb, or increasing the amount of blood points you can earn from a match (basekit BBQ and WGLF).
Convoluted and complex is honestly the perfect way to describe it
Because its not a bad change, if you notice this thread is only disputing the "75%" number that was thrown out, but even the math admits that it reduced the grind quite a bit. And that's even with OP cherry picking numbers.
I would celebrate this so hard!
Delete perk teirs that automatically makes the grind better even when more killers and survivors come out it will never be nearly as bad.
they already said they would not, even thought that would be such a help.
I know they said they wouldn't. They also said they wouldn't raise the timer of generators.
I don't get bhvr at all haha
Yeah, they literally have nothing to back them up except “but bruh its not a bad change”, despite everything pointing otherwise. No amount of math, logic or reasoning will change someone’s stubbornness
And this applies to playstyles as well on BOTH sides. And it is sad how selfish the community is.
They also really should lower the BP cost of prestiging. 50 is just too much. Maybe 20
There's no reason prestiging should cost anything. There's not a finite amount of Bloodpoints like an actual real-world economy. There's no need for a tax, the Bloodpoints aren't going towards building roads or schools or anything. All prestiging does is reset Bloodwebs back to level 1, which is something most people don't want in the first place. We're being charged Bloodpoints to do something that's detrimental to our ability to get good offerings and add-ons.
What data did you think was cherry-picked? I'm worried about how much bp it will take to get high rarity addons, there is already only 2-4 purple, and 1-2 iri addons in a level 45-50 bloodweb, and now the bloodwebs will be reset to tiny bloodwebs after prestiging.
I would have preferred a 66% grind reduction from just removing perk tiers to this rework if it means I'm going to have to deal with an addon drought from tiny bloodwebs. If the 50% grind reduction number is closer to the truth I would have really preferred the 66% grind reduction, especially since I would still get the level 50 bloodwebs.
Anyone who bought into this bait and bad math combo needs a break the new system is much better
They said somewhere it would take an hour of play per day to unlock all the perks on every killer before the next killer comes out as opposed to 4 hours currently, I think that's where the 75% grind reduction they're talking about comes from. But how long does it take to unlock all the perks on the existing killers for a new player? How long should it take, and is the new system better than just removing perk tiers for a player new to the game?
Removing perk tiers would result in not only a 66% grind reduction, but in the same 3 bloodwebs it takes to tier-3 a single perk you would have unlocked 2 extra perks compared to now. This means the grind would not only be reduced by 66%, but the chances of you getting a good perk for the killer you are currently leveling would also be boosted by 66%. That's stonks, baby! I say remove the tiers, there's no need for them.
Why dont u do the math urself then? I mean, u talk big but do u back it up? Peanits certainly didnt
The new system is better, but they’ve undercut the benefits in many ways, with the 50,000k prestige fee, the removal of BBQ and WGLF bonuses with no compensation, no way to exclude teachables you don’t want, etc. The grind will still be wildly out of hand.
I’m fairly certain that the higher-ups at the company do not actually want a massive, across-the-board reduction of the grind. They need players to stay for hundreds (or thousands) of hours.
i do find it interesting that all these claims never did the numbers to back up their defences.
I don't see the problem with that.
Everyone likes to sit near a gen and wait for it to end while doing some (really hard) QTE.
So everyone is happy now since they're longer right ?
Just an update, bud. So far 0 people have come forward backing up their claims so far. Apparently it’s a culture to talk about stuff u have zero knowledge on as if you’re an expert
I'm happy with the new changes because I have a friend who wants to get into the game but its going to wait until this update.
All they'll have to do is get the characters that have the perks they want, prestige them once and there, done. They know all the perks they want then, and can just start leveling the person they want to play as normal and get right into games with us with the perks they want to use without having to worry about wasting tons of BP on bloodweb RNG.
Going to cut the grind down so much.
"you are wrong but I have literally no explanation or evidence for it" is not the correct way to argue things btw.
Seems to be worse variant of old dbd though.
I’m sorry to tell you but this new system is gonna be way worse for you ”friend”. Not only is he gonna get BP a lot slower rate but he’s also gonna require a lot more BPs to reach presitge 1 instead of level 40. Your argument about bloodweb RNG doesn’t apply to new players since they got so few perks unlocked to begin with.
Your friend is gonna farm without extra BP on BBQ and Chili or WGLF. To Prestige a Character It's still 1.6 Million BPs. Can you even imagine How long it will take to get 1.6 Million BP while you can earn 32K BP max a Trial?
(50 matches /w 32k BP gain, 1 match 10min, 8,3 hours for 50 matches and this while you have a job+stuff to do)
You forgot to mention being bribed with 25% up to 100% extra BP on a role you might not even play.
Paying 50k BP to prestige
Cheapest nodes costing 3k BP instead of starting at 1k BP.
It's still korean MMO level of grindy
Well no, you're wrong because:
Since he's new, he's not going to have WGLF nor BBQ nor will he have ever played with them so he won't be farming BP at a lower rate he'll be farming it at a normal rate + all of the flan's and streamer's we're going top bring. But even if we didn't bring any, he'll be getting the standard BP you'd normally get, so this perception that he's getting half is a fallacy.
And you're also wrong because:
He's going to be unlocking all the good perks before settling on the character he wants to main, so no... he'll have all the Perks he wants to play with unlocked before leveling the one survivor he likes the most, so yeah, he'll have tons of perks unlocked that he will instantly just be able to use at Tier 1 without having to find them in the bloodweb.
Sorry, that's a huge time saver.
Well that depends on the perks he wishes to get.
If they are on 4 characters he could have got all the teachables before at lvl 40 for each one and farmed them on his main.
Some of them also could have been on the web at lvl 30. At best its 7 more bloodwebs to get them on the Main and at worst it could be 17 as right now over lvl 40 you can get 2 perks per web.
Of course there are the smaller webs which may help but they only give 1 per per web and he will still have them rng mixed in with the base perks that won't change.
"in the hyper specific and ancedotal scenario where a player only plays one single character out of a single role, the grind is 10% higher! in all other situations it's basically cut in half or more!! this game is now unplayable."
What about add-ons, items, and offerings?
what about it? just play the game, you don't have to have all pink/iri add-ons in every single game.
The grind for all those things have gotten harder, have they not?
the grind? you don't have to "grind" them, they come to you passively as you level up. they're a bonus, not a necessity. do y'all really have this mindset? like you log in and go "ugh gotta farm bloodpoints until i find pink add-on!!"
jesus christ, do you guys even have fun and enjoy the game? when i find pink stuff i just go "oh, this one is stronger than the others. neat!"
You absolutely grind them, I don't know where you are getting otherwise. That's like saying you don't grind perks.
i play with the add-ons i have, when i find a pink one i know it's gonna be a fun game because they're stronger. that's all. they wouldn't even be fun if i had them every single game.
perks are a permanent part of your build, you grind them once and then never again. they're not the same thing. by the way, prestiging doesn't get rid of your items anymore so you probably won't even run out.
The fact that add-ons are temporary fundamentally makes them more of a grind than perks because you need to keep acquiring them to use them. And the new prestige changes makes that grind even worse.
What? No it doesn't. It doesn't matter who has the teachable perks he wants, they're all unlocked the same way, by getting that character to P1.
"i can't play the game if i don't get to use the strongest add-ons in every single match, boo-hoo" sweaty much?
You agree that the grind for add-ons, items, and offerings has gotten worse, yes?
i don't agree that it's a grind in the first place. they're just a bonus that you get while grinding for perks, the actual thing you have to grind. they're not mandatory and they're pretty abundant. rare add-ons are meant to be rare for a reason, they're stronger but the trade off is that you have fewer of them and can't use them for every single game. that's literally the entire point.
the fact that the game got stale and people played for 6 years at p3-50, got used and entitled to having them at all times is another matter.
You have to grind to get the ones you want. To say one does not grind for add-ons is objectively false.
The fact that you acknowledge the possibility of grinding for add-ons should be a clear understanding that a grind for them exists, regardless of whether you care about going through that grind or not.
You are creating a double standard by deliberately ignoring the fact that add-ons being temporarily fundamentally makes them more of a grind.
Can we have some official statements?
The math proved that the grind, is AT BEST 50% better if you optimise all the steps but ON AVERAGE way less than that.
Plus we are losing the BP bonus from BBQ and WGLF and there is a prestige tax to pay (pretty hefty 50.000 BP which are roughly 2.7 of my average survivor games)
So the best 50% is way less.
Is BHVR going to do something concrete to address these problems?
The grind is unbearable and it needs to be PROPERLY addressed
Me trying to get as much characters to level 50 as possible
P1 only unlocks tier one of the perks on the character. You wiill then have to find the other 2 tiers via the bloodweb on your main.
You only get the full tier 3 perks when you p3 a character.
That is why right now it may be less of a grind as you don't have to go the full way to lvl 50. You can get the teachable to unlock on your main at either lvl 30, 35 or 40 depending on what the perk you want is set at.
Yeah I know.
But try to comprehend this.
We don't care.
He'll have all of the Perks he wants to use, immediately.
Then he can pick his survivor, and can hop into games with us right away using any build he wants, because he'll have the Perks. The "waiting" game is over.
Yeah he'll unlock Tier 2 and 3 in time but that will come as he just levels the character anyway for items and add ons.
Whatever you wish to do.
All I was stating is its probably going to end up more of a grind waiting as he would have 3 Perks unlocked for each one he p1's and he may only want one in regards to your comment about it being quicker with the upxoming new system.
Of course he will get them all playing but that would happen either way.
He's the type who's going to get them all eventually anyway even if he's never going to use them, but it will be quicker to just have them all immediately at Tier 1 and just be able to start making builds for various things without having to "find them"
I think everything that could be done - was already done. All we can do is to sit and wait for merciful devs' answer.
I do think the thread being active is good because that means it's bumped to the top more often which puts some pressure on the devs to actually respond.
I really don't know why they don't just respond though... it definitely isn't painting a good picture.