We reduced the grind!! (except we kinda didn't) Part 2 Bloodpoint Boogaloo
Howdy folks, it's your favourite angry DBD nerd here to be annoyed a second time. I made a post after the "grind reduction" was first announced, where I did some math to determine that the grind reduction seemed to be in name only:
@KnotEnthusiast said:
So BHVR has announced their new reworked perk and BP system, claiming that at long last they have cut down on the grind. How wonderful! But I do have one question: who has it cut down the grind for? Cuz from what I can tell, most players will actually suffer from this new system, as long as you're striving to have complete builds. An example:
Lets say I'm John Q Newplayer, and I just installed DBD. I really like anime, want to flex that I know what the word "kanabo" means, and would like the katana I bought at my local strip mall to feel like it was worth the purchase, so I want to pick up Oni! But I want to have the option to play any way I want, so I want all of the perks on him. How hard will it be for me to do that?
Well under the old perk system, it was a heck of a feat. I had to get every killer, level up to level 40 on each one. Then take my boi Oni, and just keep leveling him until I had all perks. With the current system, that means I have to buy every perk 3 times to get the max level. Since there are 97 perks including the generics, I need to buy 291 perks. But! After level 40, I can get two perks per bloodweb, doubling my progress. So after 39 levels I have 42 perks (you get your 3 t1 perks for free), which means I have 249 to go, which I can do in 125 bloodwebs. So my final level count to unlock all of this is:
40 levels on each of the 28 killers, which is 1120. Add the 39 and 125, and you get 1284 levels. Dang, that's a grind! Now lets see how much the new system reduces it!
Now, teachables are gone, and everything is dictated by prestige. Heck yeah! So if I want all perks on my boi Oni, all I have to do is get P3 on every killer, then get the 15 levels to unlock Oni's 4 perk slots, and I'm in business. Math is pretty easy on this one, just get every single killer to P3 level 1, which is essentially level 150. So 28*150+15 equals...
4215. Thats....a lot. Way way more than 1284.
"But KnotEnthusiast!", I hear you cry, "When you get all perks on one killer, you get them on everyone!" And that is true! But all you have to do to get all perks on every killer is the 126 bloodwebs (because you got them all to level 40 for the teachable, but buying the 2 teachables cost you two perks). So if you keep doing that, then you can get all perks on 23 killers before you even get close to the same number of levels as getting all perks in the new system:
1284+126*23 = 4182 levels.
But hey, at least that's something, right? While it might be worse at first, after 24 killers you're making profit! And there's also an argument to be made that the bloodwebs from levels 1-30 are significantly less expensive than those at 50 up, reducing the effect a good bit. But there's one issue:
BBQ AND CHILI'S BONUS IS GONE.
Because of the "reduced" grind, the BP bonus from BBQ is gone. So if you were someone who ran the perk frequently (IE, literally everyone), then congrats, your BP gain has effectively halved. So all of the levels required in the new system are essentially doubled, making the total even more ridiculous. Not to mention that addons, items and offerings now essentially double in price for the same reason.
Another example: a vet player with all perks unlocked, when a new killer comes out. If you want their teachables on another killer, then you need to level them up 150 times. Whereas beforehand, it was 40 times, then whatever killer you wanted their teachables on either 5 or 6 times depending on entity RNG. So again, worse case scenario you can get the new perks on 18 killers (40+6*18 = 108) before you start reducing the grind at all, not factoring in the BBQ bonus loss.
I hope I'm missing something, because honestly this new system with the loss of the BBQ/WGLF bonus feels worse than the prior system. Plus you can no longer level one killer/survivor completely then use them to grind, you have to do everyone at once.
TL;DR: The "grind" has barely improved if at all based on the perk rework, and if you factor in the loss of BBQ or WGLF, then it has actually gotten worse.
This discussion was responded to by @Peanits :
@Peanits said:
There's one huge point you're missing with the new system: Once you've prestiged for the first time, a character's teachables are instantly unlocked at tier 1 and tiers 2 & 3 can be found in the bloodweb.
So in this hypothetical scenario where you're starting from scratch and only care about getting all perks on your Oni, you actually don't need to prestige all the others three times. You can prestige once with them and go right back to leveling up your Oni (even giving his Tier 3 perks to every other Killer in the process).
So the numbers would actually look like this:
27 * 50 = 1350 (levels to P1 all other Killers)
(84 * 2) + 39 = 207 (perk tiers to be found on your Oni)
40 of the bloodwebs will be between levels 40-50 and feature two perks.
So all in all, you'd need: 1350 + 207 - 40 = 1517 levels, the majority of which are smaller levels and not full sized level 50 ones, to get all the perks on your Oni.
And should you ever decide that Oni's not your cup of tea anymore and start working on your other Killers, you've only done an extra 57 Bloodwebs, so you haven't wasted a ton of time. The numbers very quickly start to turn in your favor after the first Killer.
Who said that the fact that you could get all killers to P1 and then level accordingly in the most efficient way possible would result in substantial BP gains as you leveled up more and more killers. So I've been thinking about that, and because I am a total nerd and dislike losing my sweet sweet BBQ bonus, I figured I'd actually calculate that value.
So! We can start by explaining what the most efficient way of getting all perks on every killer, then calculate the number of levels required, then compare them to the current method. I'm also going to ignore inherent inefficiencies in starting out leveling, such as that before you unlock any teachables in the new method, a small number of levels will be wasted on bloodwebs that have no perks, as you will not have enough perk levels to fill every bloodweb up to 50. I also will assume you get the RNG that results in the most favourable amount of bloodwebs possible, and no perks get eaten. I'll also be calculating for killer, because there are fewer and therefore less work.
Most efficient level up method in the new system:
Much like the most efficient method in the current build, the best way to get all perks starts with getting all teachables on every killer. So, every killer goes up to level 50, then prestiged. But once we hit this point, then things get a bit more complicated:
Between P1 and P3, there exist 100 levels that will unlock 120 perk tiers. However, as you P3 more and more killers, the number of perks you have to buy to complete a killer drops, as you unlock more teachables by P2 and P3ing. So to get the most optimal leveling system, you have to find the balance between leveling up killers to P3 to remove their tiers from later bloodwebs, but not so many that you're wasting BP that didn't need to be spent. So, being a good nerd, I did what I had to do:
I MADE A SPREADSHEET.
BPmaths.xlsx
Using this spreadsheet, I found that P3ing either 14 or 13 killers resulted in the least BP used, at roughly 3458 levels used. Notably less than the current 4182, but nowhere near the magical 75% reduction that the devs keep touting, and not even close enough to warrant the loss of BP bonuses on perks. This also isn't counting the new 50k BP fee to prestige, which is basically just an extra level that provides no perks to your total. I'd love to have my maths proven wrong, so if anyone sees a mistake, let me know.
TL:DR: I made a spreadsheet to find that the grind has reduced 18%, from 4182 levels required to 3458, not the magical 75%. According to Peanits, this should have been the most BP saved, but I'm still hard pressed to see how this new system required that BBQ and WGLF needed to be nerfed. This feels like the BP grind is simply going to get much worse, and urge the devs to make their BP bonuses base kit.
Comments
If you play only one survivor that's not a lot of grind, so a 20% extra is not that terrible. But of course it is unnecessary, why do they increase it...
Yuuuuup me too bro, i mean we get nothing from the tiny webs. No good addons for Killers, nor decent rarity Items for surv. Its all around shameful
And tbh some killers literally depend on higher rarity addons. I mean, Myers is only playable with his iri or purple addons. So like, a terrible killer is gonna be even worse now.
I think the correct example should be:
you live 10 km away from work and don't have a car, so you need to go by foot.
One day the company you work for (which we'll call BHVR) gifts you a car, on one condition: you can only park it in our parking lot.
The parking lot is at 11 km.
This is why you don't argue with a math guy Jesusđź’€
thats stupid though, that fee should not be there. It may look minor but it’s not the bonus bp I can understand but that fee shouldn’t exist
also Nice way to harass the developers. I understand your angry at the bp removal but harassing them will not help anything. Did we forget the incentives we still don’t know how much those will give? How about we wait till those drop first?
All he did was cherry pick what the change had the lowest impact on. The overall grind has been reduced pretty drastically.
no it hasn’t. Jesus. Go and do the math urself man. The grind was reduced by only 18% and IF and ONLY IF u already have most killers and survs p3d. Which is not the case for most people. Otherwise ur just wasting more with the 50k toll and the tiny webs with useless clunk
You unlock 3 perks for 35 characters every time you prestige, on top of not losing any perks or items anymore. For that to not be huge, we must be doing math upside down.
It is literally not. Bro, ur arguments are invalid crom the moment u refuse to aknowledge the work done to prove that. I dont care what u personally think, the FACT is literally here. Just scroll up and read it, if u don’t believe it just do the math urself. Otherwise please refrain from talking about stuff u dont know.
“oh we must be doing the math upside down”. U can literally check how it was done in this very topic. Jeez
Yet you are ignoring new incentives for playing desired role, the fact that you don't need to reset and waste 150 bloodwebs to get prestige skins, shrine of secrets will now be worth much more since it will unlock perks on all characters, and that 18% was debunked long time ago in this very thread. And you have audacity to call other trolls.
Geez. Just understand that the Grind has been reduced for Experienced players who has Multiple Characters Prestiged. WHILE the future Grind on newer players (Characters that has no one prestiged probably) is the same as the current one because there is no more BP Bonuses on BBQ and Chili and WGLF.
For Dummies: (50% is an example number) BHVR Reduced the Grind for 50% while increasing the Grind 50% because BP earned isn't the same. If you have multiple Prestige, Great! reduced grind for sure. But No Prestige characters? Too bad go farm the 3 Million BPs for character to Prestige 3 with no Extra Bps from Perks ie. WLGF and BBQ & Chili.
You're ignoring that Most people will not care for incentives.
If I'm invited by a Friend to SWF while the 100% BP incentive is on the Killer, I'm not gonna play Killer.
If I'm a Killer Main that finds Survivor boring while there's 100% BP incentive. I'm still not gonna play Survivor.
People will play what they want and a Number of the player base I guarantee is gonna play the one without the incentives most of the time.
Edit:
"the fact that you don't need to reset and waste 150 bloodwebs to get prestige skins, shrine of secrets will now be worth much more since it will unlock perks on all characters"
You still need to get like At least 3 Million Bps without the reliable 100% extra BPs from WLGF and BBQ & Chili. If I'm playing a DBD and I'm trying to earn 3 Million Bps while earning 25K BP average every 15 Mins, I rather just quit the game and go to VHS and Evil Dead.
You are ignoring that most people don't care for BP perks.
If I want to play with interesting build, I'm not gonna restrict my perk choice by using WGLF.
U can never put these “incentives” into account as they’re relative and inconstant. The math has only been done around what is immediate and unconditional. Prestige skins now unlock up until P6, which is either the same or worse. Shrine of secrets is also inconstant since u can never know what will be available and they do not cost BP but Shards, which is a completely different currency.
With every new killer or surv ur wasting more as pointed by op in their rebuttal to Peanits, which I advise u to read, specially with the forced toll of 50k each prestige. And no the 18% was not “debunked” as u claim, if u actually take the time and read ops rebuttal in page 4 of this very topic you will understand. Leveling a new killer or surv to P3 is vastly more costly than leveling to level 40 and straight up buying the teachables for the character(s) u want.
again, this new system only dims the grind IF u already P3d every character in the game. Moreover, considering the vast majority of players are casuals that is NOT the case.
BBQ and Chili having a 50% Pick Rate means most probably that 50% of the Killer out there care for BP Perks.
For the sake of the Argument out of the 100K DBD Players, 25% of the Players care for BP Perks. 25% of the 100K Player base is still 25000 players who cares for BP Perks. Are you just gonna ignore those people then?
I agree, but I'd say even just removing the compulsory component would make a world of difference. It gives people the choice to either prioritise prestige or prioritise high value add ons and items. Since we arent getting an increase in bp earned, and bp bonuses have been taken from perks, I feel we should be given more power over exactly where we spend our bp
Are you talking about updated spreadsheet, that shows it's closer to 40-50%?
And if WGLF is so important, please go play 10 games and check how often this perk appears.
yes, 40/50% being veeeery generous cmon. If u did the math you’d know its closer to 37 ish. which again, is not even close to the 75% aforementioned by the devs.
the issue was never “importance of BP perks”, if the updated prestige system actually gave a 75% reduced grind it would be a fair trade imo. The issue actually is the grind is not nearly as reduced as it was supposed to, we dont have bonus bp perks anymore AND we are forced to prestige which now costs a reasonable amount AND to top it all off we get stuck with the small webs for around 20-25 levels (which provide very little btw) every time we prestige.
So, in case u haven’t realized, the issue has always been “we’ve been taken for fools”. I hope thats been clarified now
Why is it WGLF?
Why not "if BBQ and Chili is so important, please go play 10 games and check how often this perk appears."
Stop Cherry picking so you could win arguments lol
That still does not take into account things I mentioned before (shrine, resets, incentives). But I get it, it's your party and you will cry if you want to.
Ok, go on count BBQ then.
how dense are u? Even if u take incentives into account u get the same benefits from BBQ and WGLV, except all the time like ? I dont have to force myself to play a specific role and I still get the bonus with those perks lol
and once again, cause u dont seem to understand: shrines dont share the same currency as bloodwebs like ???
Oh, I get it, forcing me into using specific perks is soo much better.
In case of shrine - right now it only unlock the perk so it can appear in bloodweb, then you have to buy it and spend BP's. After patch perk will be unlocked on all characters. Currency does not matter - buying perk from shrine will save you more BP's since you don't have to buy it 28 times from bloodweb.
So anyway, how dense are u?
I think the main reason people are complaining about the so called grind reduction is that just removing perk tiers was a much better fix and the fact you're not forced to prestige and pay 50k and no longer be able to get the big bloodwebs that gives good items and addons and now instead you're forced have small bloodwebs with bad items and addons in it.
bro do u realize some people only play survivor and some only killer right? How does any incentive benefit them? Lol the perk at least lets u play the role u want. Giving full bonus benefit all the same. What dont u understand?
again, Even with the shrine giving the perk in tier 3 u still have to use a different currency like ?? U will still be forced to pay 50k to prestige everytime, and u can’t opt not to prestige. So what u “save” in the shrine u will have to spend prestiging regardless. Like ?? at best they cancel each other out. Op literally explained this.
Why is it so hard for u to understand bro?
So thats why everyone is complaining about WGLF and BBQ? Because no one cares for BP perks?
I like how you have to end every response with some kind of cheap insult rather using a good rebuttal
Remove the BP limits so I can play a BP farming build with the BP farming meme addons and the meme bp farming perks and just have fun grinding fast. Is that so much to ask?
Honestly i would love to see this
Even just increasing the cap to 40 000 would help so much
I like how you ignored the fact that it is literally quotation. But I get it, only people that agree with OP are allowed to throw insult and using arguments like "trust me bro".
You dont have to trust anyone if you do the math yourself.
But thats too much i guess.
I guess doing the math without omitting selected changes is also too much.
he said that quote in response to your condescending But I get it, it's your party and you will cry if you want to.
but you keep that condescension going, really helps your argument.
I dunno, that might be true for survivors because they only need to BP grind hard for a new DLC drop and scoop up the new survivor perks to put on their one main survivor. Most Killer mains play with a group of different Killers and we were married to BBQnChilli. I never took it off for 5 years.
I don’t think I’m alone in that either. Trying to take care of multiple Killers was very expensive and wasn’t easy to manage without BBQ.
Why do you even argue with @c0gnu5?
Take a look at his statements and analyse them. It is so blatant that this guy is trolling and tryna get ppl hooked into pointless discussion.
Don't feed him. Seriously.
And by chosing to ignore my arguments that contradics your theories, you are proving me right, so thank you for that.
BHVR gave you all the tools and variables to see whats going on, but you are choosing to ignore some of them and skew the numbers to support your false statements. Fortunately they can simply ignore you, because it's not their job to educate you. There is this saying, "the moon doesn’t care for barking dogs".
This sound like stockholm syndrome. Fortunately it will be replaced with new mechanics that are healthier for the game overall.
Still no response from devs, despite peanits being tagged numerous points after knots maths :/
I'd rather an accurate response that takes a while and reviews the various math/opinions/etc than an instant reply, but that's just me.
It is the 4th of July weekend. I'm amazed at how much math can be done on a thread only for people to forget that the devs don't live in a BHVR sized bubble.
And he still doesn't owe this thread a response after that.
ok yeah that came across as entitled, I apologise.
as a new player, the only games I have not played with BBQ are those where I don't have it unlocked yet and always go for it first when I see it on blood web cause yes it is that good.
it is in reality a 50% grind reduction since it doubles your BP meaning what could be a 10+ hour grind to unlock a characters perks is now 5+
That is the thing many people have made comments on. This grind reduction via the perk sharing rework is excellent but does not really reduce a grind per se. Players still need to grind for 500+ hours to get the full benefit from this buff. once players have everything unlocked then yes this is amazing, you only need to p3 a new killer/survivor every few months to keep everything unlocked on everything.
but as stated for a new player this is a massive nerf as we still need to p3 all of these killers and survivors. now I also agree that having this bonus tied to a perk is stupid and it shouldn't be; it should be baseline and far higher. honestly with the numbers as they are now I don't get why they are not. Why is BHVR so afraid to shell out more BP or lower the BP needed to level up?
would you guys honestly go well this is dumb and I don't want to play anymore if you got a 100k BP average a match? I think if anything it would make things more enjoyable on all fronts. It would unlock perks faster letting people play more builds, make the game easier to get into, and make BP cycling easier to open the roster up allowing you to farm things like addons and offerings
as far as the shrine goes I think it's overpriced, again coming from a new player in the 2 weeks I have been playing I have got around 9k of the shard things and that includes a bunch from the event as daily rewards. it takes like 12k to unlock 1 t3 perk on all toons meaning I could buy 1 perk every month or so unless as you get into the higher levels it starts shelling the shards out at a much higher rate.
It's funny how people try to argue with this objectively bad change, they just want to start arguing for the sake of arguing I guess?
I smell this thread is either going to the new mega thread or this will be shut down. Looking at the last 3 pages I think this thread will be shut down
id guess shut down also, I know it's a holiday weekend and all but even if it wasn't BHVR really seems to want to avoid any sort of talk on the BP grind subject even in posts they would respond to it would be about other things then ignore any replies asking them to go into more detail on something or plans they might have to address it.
all they would need to do is make a post saying "hey we hear you guys talking about the grind and are looking into solutions to alleviate it for new and old players alike." that would settle most the people down on the matter at least for a while of course if nothing was then done about it for a while it would fire back up. but considering how easy of a fix it is if they really wanted to it shouldn't take more than a patch to settle. if they can easily flip a switch to double BP or more on weekends or events there is no reason they cant do the same thing and just make it permanent
Rare contrition, have an upvote!
The devs should get rid of useless offerings/items (looking at you green key) OR add an ingame BP shop in which we can trade offerings/items we don't need for BP....
Green keys are not useless at all (unless you get one from chest).
that's such a great idea! Have the entity make that clerk from ghosty's chapter be the clerk running the bp shop.
Is peanits not Canadian?
They are also online rn in a different thread. They probably can't comment right now since it seems the math isn't on their side. I wish BHVR would at least acknowledge this, I was really hoping their year 6 promise meant something.