We reduced the grind!! (except we kinda didn't) Part 2 Bloodpoint Boogaloo
Howdy folks, it's your favourite angry DBD nerd here to be annoyed a second time. I made a post after the "grind reduction" was first announced, where I did some math to determine that the grind reduction seemed to be in name only:
@KnotEnthusiast said:
So BHVR has announced their new reworked perk and BP system, claiming that at long last they have cut down on the grind. How wonderful! But I do have one question: who has it cut down the grind for? Cuz from what I can tell, most players will actually suffer from this new system, as long as you're striving to have complete builds. An example:
Lets say I'm John Q Newplayer, and I just installed DBD. I really like anime, want to flex that I know what the word "kanabo" means, and would like the katana I bought at my local strip mall to feel like it was worth the purchase, so I want to pick up Oni! But I want to have the option to play any way I want, so I want all of the perks on him. How hard will it be for me to do that?
Well under the old perk system, it was a heck of a feat. I had to get every killer, level up to level 40 on each one. Then take my boi Oni, and just keep leveling him until I had all perks. With the current system, that means I have to buy every perk 3 times to get the max level. Since there are 97 perks including the generics, I need to buy 291 perks. But! After level 40, I can get two perks per bloodweb, doubling my progress. So after 39 levels I have 42 perks (you get your 3 t1 perks for free), which means I have 249 to go, which I can do in 125 bloodwebs. So my final level count to unlock all of this is:
40 levels on each of the 28 killers, which is 1120. Add the 39 and 125, and you get 1284 levels. Dang, that's a grind! Now lets see how much the new system reduces it!
Now, teachables are gone, and everything is dictated by prestige. Heck yeah! So if I want all perks on my boi Oni, all I have to do is get P3 on every killer, then get the 15 levels to unlock Oni's 4 perk slots, and I'm in business. Math is pretty easy on this one, just get every single killer to P3 level 1, which is essentially level 150. So 28*150+15 equals...
4215. Thats....a lot. Way way more than 1284.
"But KnotEnthusiast!", I hear you cry, "When you get all perks on one killer, you get them on everyone!" And that is true! But all you have to do to get all perks on every killer is the 126 bloodwebs (because you got them all to level 40 for the teachable, but buying the 2 teachables cost you two perks). So if you keep doing that, then you can get all perks on 23 killers before you even get close to the same number of levels as getting all perks in the new system:
1284+126*23 = 4182 levels.
But hey, at least that's something, right? While it might be worse at first, after 24 killers you're making profit! And there's also an argument to be made that the bloodwebs from levels 1-30 are significantly less expensive than those at 50 up, reducing the effect a good bit. But there's one issue:
BBQ AND CHILI'S BONUS IS GONE.
Because of the "reduced" grind, the BP bonus from BBQ is gone. So if you were someone who ran the perk frequently (IE, literally everyone), then congrats, your BP gain has effectively halved. So all of the levels required in the new system are essentially doubled, making the total even more ridiculous. Not to mention that addons, items and offerings now essentially double in price for the same reason.
Another example: a vet player with all perks unlocked, when a new killer comes out. If you want their teachables on another killer, then you need to level them up 150 times. Whereas beforehand, it was 40 times, then whatever killer you wanted their teachables on either 5 or 6 times depending on entity RNG. So again, worse case scenario you can get the new perks on 18 killers (40+6*18 = 108) before you start reducing the grind at all, not factoring in the BBQ bonus loss.
I hope I'm missing something, because honestly this new system with the loss of the BBQ/WGLF bonus feels worse than the prior system. Plus you can no longer level one killer/survivor completely then use them to grind, you have to do everyone at once.
TL;DR: The "grind" has barely improved if at all based on the perk rework, and if you factor in the loss of BBQ or WGLF, then it has actually gotten worse.
This discussion was responded to by @Peanits :
@Peanits said:
There's one huge point you're missing with the new system: Once you've prestiged for the first time, a character's teachables are instantly unlocked at tier 1 and tiers 2 & 3 can be found in the bloodweb.
So in this hypothetical scenario where you're starting from scratch and only care about getting all perks on your Oni, you actually don't need to prestige all the others three times. You can prestige once with them and go right back to leveling up your Oni (even giving his Tier 3 perks to every other Killer in the process).
So the numbers would actually look like this:
27 * 50 = 1350 (levels to P1 all other Killers)
(84 * 2) + 39 = 207 (perk tiers to be found on your Oni)
40 of the bloodwebs will be between levels 40-50 and feature two perks.
So all in all, you'd need: 1350 + 207 - 40 = 1517 levels, the majority of which are smaller levels and not full sized level 50 ones, to get all the perks on your Oni.
And should you ever decide that Oni's not your cup of tea anymore and start working on your other Killers, you've only done an extra 57 Bloodwebs, so you haven't wasted a ton of time. The numbers very quickly start to turn in your favor after the first Killer.
Who said that the fact that you could get all killers to P1 and then level accordingly in the most efficient way possible would result in substantial BP gains as you leveled up more and more killers. So I've been thinking about that, and because I am a total nerd and dislike losing my sweet sweet BBQ bonus, I figured I'd actually calculate that value.
So! We can start by explaining what the most efficient way of getting all perks on every killer, then calculate the number of levels required, then compare them to the current method. I'm also going to ignore inherent inefficiencies in starting out leveling, such as that before you unlock any teachables in the new method, a small number of levels will be wasted on bloodwebs that have no perks, as you will not have enough perk levels to fill every bloodweb up to 50. I also will assume you get the RNG that results in the most favourable amount of bloodwebs possible, and no perks get eaten. I'll also be calculating for killer, because there are fewer and therefore less work.
Most efficient level up method in the new system:
Much like the most efficient method in the current build, the best way to get all perks starts with getting all teachables on every killer. So, every killer goes up to level 50, then prestiged. But once we hit this point, then things get a bit more complicated:
Between P1 and P3, there exist 100 levels that will unlock 120 perk tiers. However, as you P3 more and more killers, the number of perks you have to buy to complete a killer drops, as you unlock more teachables by P2 and P3ing. So to get the most optimal leveling system, you have to find the balance between leveling up killers to P3 to remove their tiers from later bloodwebs, but not so many that you're wasting BP that didn't need to be spent. So, being a good nerd, I did what I had to do:
I MADE A SPREADSHEET.
BPmaths.xlsx
Using this spreadsheet, I found that P3ing either 14 or 13 killers resulted in the least BP used, at roughly 3458 levels used. Notably less than the current 4182, but nowhere near the magical 75% reduction that the devs keep touting, and not even close enough to warrant the loss of BP bonuses on perks. This also isn't counting the new 50k BP fee to prestige, which is basically just an extra level that provides no perks to your total. I'd love to have my maths proven wrong, so if anyone sees a mistake, let me know.
TL:DR: I made a spreadsheet to find that the grind has reduced 18%, from 4182 levels required to 3458, not the magical 75%. According to Peanits, this should have been the most BP saved, but I'm still hard pressed to see how this new system required that BBQ and WGLF needed to be nerfed. This feels like the BP grind is simply going to get much worse, and urge the devs to make their BP bonuses base kit.
Comments
I'm happy that bp bonuses are gone, now I have 4 perk slots instead of 3
I'm honestly not that sad that the rarer addons are actually going to be rarer
A big reason because a lot of iri's have been gutted was because they were so common
With Huntress in the past who only had iri hatchets it was very doable to have one almost every match
As a player you should,unless you like being treated bad.
What seems to be is that possibly the team who was working on this grind/prestige change did so with the extra BP from BBQ and WGLF being around or another means of earning the same.
That could be that perk changes had not been finalized or they were told about other means of earning the same such as the BP incentive to play the other side.
That incentive itself seems like a great idea but how does that help mains who only play one side or those who boot up with a side in mind to play depending on how they are feeling.
Using BP perks was always a choice but it seems many chose to do it. This incentive is the same choice but it could become more of a chore as its now the choice of playing a side you may not wish too for the same effect.
I think the fact Peanits or any dev has not responded to the updated charts Knot made in response speaks for itself here, hugely.
I don't concider it being treated bad at all.
Especially seeing how it's the same for both sides
It's not a bad thing we are going to see the strongest thing on each side less.
Maybe you'll see the niche addons from time to time now
That incentive itself seems like a great idea but how does that help mains who only play one side or those who boot up with a side in mind to play depending on how they are feeling.
That was on my mind aswell.
Their reasoning behind removing BP bonus from WGLF and BBQ was because people felt forced to use them to help the grind a bit.
But now instead of being forced to use a certain perk you'll have to potentially play a role you don't even want to.
Very weird design choice to be honest.
all this could be avoided by making the bp gain basekit. I am losing more and more faith in this game.
Completely dumb design to be honest.
This is actually very right - everyone felt like picking WGLF or BBQ is a must if you wanted to progress - People who didnt pick BBQ were:
I agree that certain perk being necessary to pick due to game design is a really bad idea, but removing the part of the perk people considered and calling it "a brilliant idea" and then spreading misleading propaganda is seriously not good.
Why not add the perk's "necessary" part to the base kit then just like you did with BT?
You are happy that you will need twice more games for same thing?
Prestige costs 50k, you will need to play 2 games just to pay for basically nothing.
Mainly it changes from 75%-100% any time I want into 0-100% sometimes.
Like every day I am going to login, find out it's 0-50% for killers and just leaves and hope it will be better anyother time....
Also even with "incentive" it's normal to get much less BP when playing survivor btw.
Exactly what I was wondering, they didn't improve the grind, just pissed almost everyone off.
To anyone wondering why they devs haven't responded to the new spreadsheet... It's the weekend. Keep in mind I doubt they respond when the week begins but they def ain't responding today.
They don't need to respond.
If you cannot do basic math, they cannot help you.
you mean the maths KnotEnthusiast did?
If you think the spreadsheet is flawed do the math yourself. You said its "basic" so it shouldn't take too long, no?
What exactly do you mean by that?
Yeah, I know it's weekend, so their immediate answers shouldn't be expected.
I'm pretty sure they are going to respond later this week with simple "huh, bruh, you're wrong. Grind will be gut now. -75% you know?"
All of this nonsense would be forgotten and nobody would be mad but they need to take actions NOW and scrap the idea of BP bonus removal entirely. They either:
Last three options would reduce the grind most effectively and I think it would make this discussion completed.
I don't know why am I even trying to suggest anything. The devs are extremely stubborn and they have proven it multiple times already.
those last three would make a world of difference, I don't get why they are making this ass backwards approach instead.
Because they want us to taste THEIR changes. They are the kings of this game and they want to be praised for that. Accept it or get lost.
This sounds like a load of bull but whatever. People didnt care what WGLF or BBQ did. They only took it because it gave BP. And thats bad design. Having people take a perk just because it offers a very specific boost that doesnt help you in a match whatsoever
Not for the same thing, since this patch will reduce grind.
BP bonuses in perks is simply bad design.
BBQ & Chili is a serviceable perk without the BP boost. WGLF I'll grant you.
Grind will be same / worse.
Grind will be smaller.
We did math, it won't.
It depends on how many characters you care about. If you actually want to play all killers for example, it will be 50% lower.
but addons will be harder to get with all those resets.
I play only one survivor, so for me it increased by 20% instead.
I play mostly killer and I don't really care for addons, less will be still enough for me and I will save a lot of BP's thanks to this patch
of course you will. So do I
Those changes are decent for veteran players who already have most of the grind behind us, but wait for new dlc when you have to farm 9M without BBQ.
And this is going to absolutely suck for new players. It's going to be way worse for them.
I will have all perks on new killer imidiately, and I won't have to go through 6 x 28 bloodwebs to unlock new perks on others. Personally I can't wait
well we can all stop complaining guys, it won't affect c0gnu5 personally so all is well.
Oh, my bad, i thought this thread is for discussion, but turns out it's for crying. My bad
I've been observing this thread since it's original posting.
While this change does benefit me immensely, because I have many Killers P3'd, it will not help those who need it most; the new players. It may even make the grind significantly more difficult than it was, which is unacceptable.
The entire grind overhaul, prestige rework and P3 rewards have been extremely underwhelming, to say the absolute least. If I were to be as critical as I want to be, I'd suggest BHVR go back to the drawing board for all three of those things.
If the situation won't involve or affect you then why enter the discussion? Just saying something doesn't affect you isn't a thought provoking remark and adds nothing to the conversation
its genuinely just sad at this point. like how did this prestige overhaul even get greenlit 😭 it was so obvious that it didnt reduce the grind that much, ESPECIALLY for newer players.
also, whats with them not even giving us worthwhile rewards for slogging through the grind of this game?? getting to prestige 100 only gives you an icon? its pathetic.
and then butcher the bp perks cause they wanted people to use other perks. Why not make it basekit then and make everyone happy?
I don't understand the change on the perk, even if you reduce grind, you STILL need to grind a lot to get what you want. Do they really think the people that only have time to play 3 hours a day will actually be happy without bonus points? Hell, even people that got some free time suffer from these changes.
Don't feed this troll.
He either trolls or have no idea what is he talking about. @c0gnu5, evn if you truly benefit from the changes, good for you. You're among ~1% of playerbase who will actually benefit from this. Good luck watching rest of the playerbase struggling with even worse grind than there was before and in effect probably leave the game or play more occasionally.
Developers don't respond to posts that often because it only makes things worse. No matter what they say, you will be upset. So why even try?
Removing the bonus to the BP from the perks is a big mistake. The game won't get any happier with this change. It's only going to get worse. Make a bonus to the BP with a basic kit or increase the points limit to 16,000
That is not true. The devs have been proven to be wrong with their idea. Community gave them everything they needed in order to effectively limit the grind,
If they choose one of ideas provided in this topic, then their behaviour would mean that they actually think about the game's issues, so it's not like whatever they say, we would whine - no. We whine because they want to make their product worse, and we as the customers know what can be done - We simply want to make use of something we've paid for.
If only there was some way to instantly reduce the grind by 2/3 that would also allow for a better item/add-on/offering economy...
If only we could remove perk ti....
*wakes up from insane fever dream*
Situation the game is in basically looks as the following one:
You think whether you should go to work by car or by foot. You decide you want to drive by car because you'd have to walk 10km otherwise. Then you go to your garage and notice your car got stolen. You happily accept your fate and are thankful to the thief for caring for your health. You will improve your heart condition after all!
According to the PTB, all my killers will be fine for the new system, too, but like you said, it's a grind for new people, for sure.
General question for anyone:
I may have missed it, but if I have Survivor X's teachable from The Shrine, do I need to get them to P2 to get Tier 2 for everyone or will Tier 1 unlock the next Tier (Tier 2) in this scenario (confusing, I know, haha).
I don't understand how the change is making the game worse when even the spread sheets provided show it reduces the grind quite a bit. And the spread sheets don't even take into account the priority que bonus. So yeah, you are just whining to whine, and devs are over it. Congrats, you played yourselves.
It's true, the grind was actually increased not decreased.
Try to understand what you read. Please.
The grind reduction is around 18% according to spreadsheets. These DO NOT take into consideration BP bonus perk (+50%), so effective grind reduction is -32% aka grind is INCREASED by 32% and on top of that, 50k prestige fee is also NOT INCLUDED!!! so yeah, it's not whining just to whine. Imagine that it's not something I enjoy in particular to do.
Alright oh dam this is the new mega thread here. I’ll put my condolences here.
While this is a good change for the game and it will help reduce the annoying grind of getting every perk. It doesn’t help new players cause they still need to get the characters and the perks. My problem with the change is how your forced to prestige and you have to spend 50,000 bp. Why reduce the grind then add a stupid price?
if I were to fix the grind the way there doing it I would
That’s honestly all I would do I have to play the incentives first to really see how much it gives you but that’s what I would do
The Fee can stay. It's role in the entire problem is minor to none. Removal of bonus BP is. Even if you earn ~20k each match and get 3/4 stacks it's still whopping 15k BP/match LOST.
The fee can stay, bring back bonus BP
I am so crazily disappointed. I'm disappointed and tired of stupidity of the devs during balancing. My god you have no idea how your own game works. You have no idea of UX or QoL. I legitimately have no clue how could anyone aware of DBD's economy stand up during the daily (I guess you're utilizing scrum during development) and say "Let's cut the grind and remove BP bonus). That simply blows my mind.
Should I expect to hear "We've done pretty good job so far" after the patch goes live? I'm literally about to lose my mind.
I do apologize for that rant-post. I just can't help myself when I see this game being gutted and made newbie-hostile.
Just want to add-in. While it did make my grind significantly shorter with all of my killers at P3 and P2 level 50. It also changes another fundamental thing.
It means my grind with killer is over and just flattens my progression. Therefore making the game more unfun to play over-all as I would be playing to level up random survivors I don't really use or for more add-ons which is going to get harder to find now too.
Over-all, it just shifts things around in not a good way and only thing it adds is that all my killers get to try any build I want now instead of me having to earn it through progression.
You really needed to add actual progression incentives and charms with perk icons ain't it.