We reduced the grind!! (except we kinda didn't) Part 2 Bloodpoint Boogaloo
Howdy folks, it's your favourite angry DBD nerd here to be annoyed a second time. I made a post after the "grind reduction" was first announced, where I did some math to determine that the grind reduction seemed to be in name only:
@KnotEnthusiast said:
So BHVR has announced their new reworked perk and BP system, claiming that at long last they have cut down on the grind. How wonderful! But I do have one question: who has it cut down the grind for? Cuz from what I can tell, most players will actually suffer from this new system, as long as you're striving to have complete builds. An example:
Lets say I'm John Q Newplayer, and I just installed DBD. I really like anime, want to flex that I know what the word "kanabo" means, and would like the katana I bought at my local strip mall to feel like it was worth the purchase, so I want to pick up Oni! But I want to have the option to play any way I want, so I want all of the perks on him. How hard will it be for me to do that?
Well under the old perk system, it was a heck of a feat. I had to get every killer, level up to level 40 on each one. Then take my boi Oni, and just keep leveling him until I had all perks. With the current system, that means I have to buy every perk 3 times to get the max level. Since there are 97 perks including the generics, I need to buy 291 perks. But! After level 40, I can get two perks per bloodweb, doubling my progress. So after 39 levels I have 42 perks (you get your 3 t1 perks for free), which means I have 249 to go, which I can do in 125 bloodwebs. So my final level count to unlock all of this is:
40 levels on each of the 28 killers, which is 1120. Add the 39 and 125, and you get 1284 levels. Dang, that's a grind! Now lets see how much the new system reduces it!
Now, teachables are gone, and everything is dictated by prestige. Heck yeah! So if I want all perks on my boi Oni, all I have to do is get P3 on every killer, then get the 15 levels to unlock Oni's 4 perk slots, and I'm in business. Math is pretty easy on this one, just get every single killer to P3 level 1, which is essentially level 150. So 28*150+15 equals...
4215. Thats....a lot. Way way more than 1284.
"But KnotEnthusiast!", I hear you cry, "When you get all perks on one killer, you get them on everyone!" And that is true! But all you have to do to get all perks on every killer is the 126 bloodwebs (because you got them all to level 40 for the teachable, but buying the 2 teachables cost you two perks). So if you keep doing that, then you can get all perks on 23 killers before you even get close to the same number of levels as getting all perks in the new system:
1284+126*23 = 4182 levels.
But hey, at least that's something, right? While it might be worse at first, after 24 killers you're making profit! And there's also an argument to be made that the bloodwebs from levels 1-30 are significantly less expensive than those at 50 up, reducing the effect a good bit. But there's one issue:
BBQ AND CHILI'S BONUS IS GONE.
Because of the "reduced" grind, the BP bonus from BBQ is gone. So if you were someone who ran the perk frequently (IE, literally everyone), then congrats, your BP gain has effectively halved. So all of the levels required in the new system are essentially doubled, making the total even more ridiculous. Not to mention that addons, items and offerings now essentially double in price for the same reason.
Another example: a vet player with all perks unlocked, when a new killer comes out. If you want their teachables on another killer, then you need to level them up 150 times. Whereas beforehand, it was 40 times, then whatever killer you wanted their teachables on either 5 or 6 times depending on entity RNG. So again, worse case scenario you can get the new perks on 18 killers (40+6*18 = 108) before you start reducing the grind at all, not factoring in the BBQ bonus loss.
I hope I'm missing something, because honestly this new system with the loss of the BBQ/WGLF bonus feels worse than the prior system. Plus you can no longer level one killer/survivor completely then use them to grind, you have to do everyone at once.
TL;DR: The "grind" has barely improved if at all based on the perk rework, and if you factor in the loss of BBQ or WGLF, then it has actually gotten worse.
This discussion was responded to by @Peanits :
@Peanits said:
There's one huge point you're missing with the new system: Once you've prestiged for the first time, a character's teachables are instantly unlocked at tier 1 and tiers 2 & 3 can be found in the bloodweb.
So in this hypothetical scenario where you're starting from scratch and only care about getting all perks on your Oni, you actually don't need to prestige all the others three times. You can prestige once with them and go right back to leveling up your Oni (even giving his Tier 3 perks to every other Killer in the process).
So the numbers would actually look like this:
27 * 50 = 1350 (levels to P1 all other Killers)
(84 * 2) + 39 = 207 (perk tiers to be found on your Oni)
40 of the bloodwebs will be between levels 40-50 and feature two perks.
So all in all, you'd need: 1350 + 207 - 40 = 1517 levels, the majority of which are smaller levels and not full sized level 50 ones, to get all the perks on your Oni.
And should you ever decide that Oni's not your cup of tea anymore and start working on your other Killers, you've only done an extra 57 Bloodwebs, so you haven't wasted a ton of time. The numbers very quickly start to turn in your favor after the first Killer.
Who said that the fact that you could get all killers to P1 and then level accordingly in the most efficient way possible would result in substantial BP gains as you leveled up more and more killers. So I've been thinking about that, and because I am a total nerd and dislike losing my sweet sweet BBQ bonus, I figured I'd actually calculate that value.
So! We can start by explaining what the most efficient way of getting all perks on every killer, then calculate the number of levels required, then compare them to the current method. I'm also going to ignore inherent inefficiencies in starting out leveling, such as that before you unlock any teachables in the new method, a small number of levels will be wasted on bloodwebs that have no perks, as you will not have enough perk levels to fill every bloodweb up to 50. I also will assume you get the RNG that results in the most favourable amount of bloodwebs possible, and no perks get eaten. I'll also be calculating for killer, because there are fewer and therefore less work.
Most efficient level up method in the new system:
Much like the most efficient method in the current build, the best way to get all perks starts with getting all teachables on every killer. So, every killer goes up to level 50, then prestiged. But once we hit this point, then things get a bit more complicated:
Between P1 and P3, there exist 100 levels that will unlock 120 perk tiers. However, as you P3 more and more killers, the number of perks you have to buy to complete a killer drops, as you unlock more teachables by P2 and P3ing. So to get the most optimal leveling system, you have to find the balance between leveling up killers to P3 to remove their tiers from later bloodwebs, but not so many that you're wasting BP that didn't need to be spent. So, being a good nerd, I did what I had to do:
I MADE A SPREADSHEET.
BPmaths.xlsx
Using this spreadsheet, I found that P3ing either 14 or 13 killers resulted in the least BP used, at roughly 3458 levels used. Notably less than the current 4182, but nowhere near the magical 75% reduction that the devs keep touting, and not even close enough to warrant the loss of BP bonuses on perks. This also isn't counting the new 50k BP fee to prestige, which is basically just an extra level that provides no perks to your total. I'd love to have my maths proven wrong, so if anyone sees a mistake, let me know.
TL:DR: I made a spreadsheet to find that the grind has reduced 18%, from 4182 levels required to 3458, not the magical 75%. According to Peanits, this should have been the most BP saved, but I'm still hard pressed to see how this new system required that BBQ and WGLF needed to be nerfed. This feels like the BP grind is simply going to get much worse, and urge the devs to make their BP bonuses base kit.
Comments
which peanits never rebutted after too 🤨
Because he knows BHVR's entire "grind reduction" idea is mathematically, objectively, morally and technically bankrupt and as always they will not admit to this. OP proven this multiple times and debunked every argument Peanits used.
that's my point, that a dev could not even reply with a argument even though they must have saw it because they were tagged in here after. I would not call Peanits morally bankrupt though, that's a bit harsh now.
Anyone's lies. In this case BHVR's, though I'm not sure whether the lies are intentional or through ignorance of how people use their product. Based on other out of touch decisions I know of/have heard of, I honestly believe it's the latter.
Though with a figure as high as 75% being thrown around (albeit people may or may not have misinterpreted it) they had to know that the expectations were high. At the very least breaking even despite the loss of BBQ and WGLF would have been acceptable. That's not happening by a long shot. Eventually sure at the end it's better but most players don't play every killer and survivor which is where the gains from the new system come in. Until then it's straight up worse, especially with the prestige tax which was NOT mentioned IRC, a lie of omission. Again I don't believe that's malicious or intentional but... it's not a good look and for what reason?
Perhaps I did digress too much. Just hit a personal chord with me and how pointless it is to compile facts and factual arguments only to basically be ignored/derailed by one meme picture which is the equivalent of TL;DR and have the conversation go nowhere and ultimately no progress is made and everyone still complains about the same stuff.
TL;DR: All I was remarking is that some people are amazed by how shallow some people were and I was saying that I wasn't.
your right, I'm pretty sure the 50k tax was never mentioned until the ptb notes came out. They clearly omitted for that a reason, they knew we would hate it.
The question is why put something in place thats just going to piss off the community as a whole. I don't think there is going to be a single player out there thats going to be "Wow 50k to prestige. Hell yeah ill spend that. What do i get for it? Nothing and worse addons. Sign me Up".
The little faith the community still had in behaviour is slowly dieing and although I won't quit playing the game I won't play as much and most likely just customs where BP doesnt matter.
Well not to be blunt or anything, but behavior should put "All we do is piss off the community, lol, buy auric cells for our battlepass (in our paid game with a ######### ton of paid dlc) and overpriced cosmetics and maybe we'll fix something idk" as their tagline.
Guys, the 50k tax is absolutely nothing. Considering prestiging all killers triple times it makes 28x3x50k=4,2kk - it's really not that much, if you consider whopping numbers of BP spent on 150 lvls on every killer.
The problem with the entire idea is mentioned 75% - it's propaganda BS number given to the community to make us think how generous they are. It gets quickly debunked and even after OP put so much effort to create spreadsheet to clearly prove them wrong, they said at the end "OP is wrong". End of story.
I never said @Peanits is morally bankrupt - spreading the idea of "Grind Reduction" and people who designed it are.
Exactly. They talk big but don’t seem to back it up. I reaaaaaaaaally think we deserve some explanation tbh
After letting this stew for a bit and getting more info/opinions, I’m no longer happy with this system. I originally thought with a 75% grind reduction, I could finally find time to get all survivor perks, or justify the WGLF/BBQ nerf, or go ahead and P3 all Killers so that I can start strong when new Killer is introduced…
but the changes actually made it harder for me to get all survivor perks, didn’t justify the extra BP bonus being taken away from those two perks and I think it would just sadly be more manageable to Keep 80% of my Killers P1 and just build up the new Killer.
God, why can’t they just do ‘the right’ thing for the community instead of hardballng us. Make extra BP stacks for certain actions free or get rid of tiers…Jesus.
Because you've already put the time in to grind up to that point. I will say this system will expand better to more and more killers and survivors but I mean half the killers I dont play and I only play maybe 2 or 3 survivors so most of the benefits go to characters I don't use anyways.
Personally, I wish they'd just make the BP bonus from them basekit. That way we always get the extra BP and don't have to run those perks if we don't want. But having that BP either way is nice. They can easily put this back after seeing all this, and its such an easy fix, whether it be back on the perks, or just basekit (better option IMO).
@Peanits please you and the team put all this criticism to mind when making the live patch
but correct me if I am wrong on the old blood web it was about 50k BP to reset and you would get 2 perks (4 in the web but the entity would eat one each time you picked one) With the new system you will have to spend 50k to fill the lvl 50 web then 50k to prestige, then a bunch more BP to work your way through the lower ranks to start seeing perks.
Again unless I am wrong getting shot back to the "Tiny levels" again hurts more things than it buffs. Fewer perk options popping up along with needing to dump 300k+ BP each prestige in order to start seeing purple add-ons more reliably as opposed to the old 50k you would have to dump to reset your lvl 50 web.
Correct me if I am wrong, but with the old system you would spend 50kish BP to reset your lvl 50 web and that would allow you the choice of picking 2 of 4 perks that spawned into it, so every 50kish bp would net you 2 perks. with the new system you have to spend 50k at lvl 50 then another 50k to prestige, then spend a bunch of BP to level up and start seeing multiple perks.
The other nerf to being sent back to "tiny levels" is you need to dump 300kish bp to start seeing purple add on the regular as opposed to the current 50kish to just reset your lvl 50 tree.
I have brought this up a few times in various post and am genuinely interested in why there has never been any sort of BP squish needed to lvl especially for older killers and survivors. with this new system it seems like the perfect time to implement something like p1-p3 has a massive reduction in BP needed then it goes back to normal starting at p4-p100 when it is simply cosmetics you are earning.
This would reduce the "Grind" and help new players get into the game and on their feet testing builds/perks easier to see what they will enjoy.
It's going for you but what about people who just bought the game without half the cast p2 or 3
But this new "revert to tiny bloodwebs" also means you have to wade your way through many bloodwebs in order to start getting the actually good addons, rather than getting 1,000 padded jaws on Trapper as an example.
Then those people still benefit? This change hasn't taken anything away from people.
bro did u even care to actually read ops post? Did u actually took the time to see ops spreadsheets? I mean Im sorry, but if u haven’t u have no business saying that.
OP literally took the time to do the math, proving this system is actually worse. I encourage u to redo the math, I did. So you’ll see there is basically no benefit as is
Its taken away bbq and wglf and put 50k tax whenever they hit level 50. That is definitely taking something away. Yes I agree perks being attached to bp gain is bad but the gains only come at the very end once several characters are prestige when the grind is at its worst at the start.
These gains are less if you consider that many players only play a few characters so getting ‘free’ perks on characters they’ll never use is gaining nothing at all. On a personal level this doesn’t hurt me much at all, I took full advantage of bbq and wglf during the event but it wasn’t that long ago I had next to nothing and how annoying that early grind was and now that’s going to be worse for people who follow me.
If you only play a few characters, then what do you care? Just play the ones you want.
I actually play most killers but know many people don’t and survivor players typically stick with one or two. So why do I care? Because I have empathy. I said this change barely effects me. However it is extremely disingenuous to sell something as reducing the grind when it does the exact opposite for most players.
I do honestly believe it’s ignorance of understanding their players and not maliciously attempting to increase the grind. This thread is trying to point it out to BHVR that if their goal was to reduce the grind, from where most players sit they actually failed.
Why are perk tiers STILL a thing, and why cant better items appear in bloodwebs exponentially per prestige??
Even beyond the perk grind, getting rid of BBQ is just going to result in killers running fewer good add-ons because they simply can't afford them, which means killer kill rates will drop even further, meaning gen times will have to get EVEN LONGER to compensate to get those kill rates back up. Hope you enjoy 120 sec gens when the devs finally decide to do something about this in about 2 years.
With the changes to BBQ and we're gonna live forever all it will do is make survivor bloodpoint gains garbage and make killer bloodpoint gains bad
The fact there's even a debate whether the grind legitimately got reduced means it's not a good grind reduction.
When the grind got reduced in 2016, there was no debate and it was unanimously seen as a good update. The size of bloodwebs was greatly reduced at all levels; old level 30 bloodwebs have 30 nodes, more than the 26 nodes of current level 50 bloodwebs. Anyone who had prestiged any of the non-licensed characters at the time was given a reward that has only gotten more prestigious as time has passed, although I wish Nurse wasn't the only strong killer with legacy cosmetics.
When the grind got reduced again in 2019, with the introduction of 3-4 perks per bloodweb letting you get 2 perk tiers per level starting at level 40, everyone again saw this as a good thing.
This grind reduction is only for those who play lots of different characters (so killer mains), doesn't benefit new players, and floods players with brown/yellow addons while making purples scarce.
Ideally, the rarity of bloodweb nodes should be increased starting at P3 to compensate for lower levels tending to have lower rarity nodes, prestige should not have any pointless cost behind it, and either all nodes should be half price or WGLF/BBQ style BP boosts should be base kit (maybe changing WGLF so you can gain tokens through being chased and doing gens, not just altruism and protection hits).
IMO the changes to BBQ and WGLF would be a good thing if the grind was reduced to compensate, as I'm tired of having a BP incentive decide my perks for me. It's also not consumer-friendly to force new players who want to play killer have to spend 4 euros on a licensed killer they might not want to play, or wait up to over half a year for BBQ to be on the shrine, because devs decided the ideal way to reduce grind is by making killers who don't wish to grind have to run a specific perk that belongs to a killer you can only buy with real money. That, and fact is BBQ has always been a lot stronger as a grind reduction perk than WGLF. It's not hard at all to get 4 tokens of BBQ, but if all survivors run WGLF only one or two might get 4 stacks, as someone has to do gens while others do altruism.
However, this update was not a good way to make the nerfs.
I don't really have anything of value to add to this conversation, but I l just wanted to say I love how big of a math nerd your brain is. I'm not great at that subject (depends on what kind and how skilled my teacher was), but I'm just simply not a Will Hunting type. My skills are in other things. So . . . props to you. It's cool how you can think these things through. Is your math right? Are you missing a key variable? Hell if I know, but I suspect if someone pointed it out, you'd give it serious thought. And for that alone, I also give you props.
Imagine how much happier everyone would be if they just instead decided to remove perk tiers instead of this questionable grind reduction change.
if p3 gives you a .5% more rare items at p100 you'll get a 16% chance for rare items wow
That is not what I mean. What I mean is if a person only plays a few characters, what do they care about the grind for the rest? Just ignore them and you can literally buy the perks you want from the Shrine directly. You never have to touch a character you are not interested in.
BBQ change and bloodweb changes are specifically looking to nerf killers and their add-on economy. they don't like how killers can use same add-ons every single and play same killer 24/7. that's why they're nerfing bloodwebs and BBQ. sometimes you'll get this comment as killer that goes along lines of "Mr, killer main, stop using crutch add-on's"
survivor mains comments, Big Ouch.
I find it odd that the grind is suppose to be reduce but at the same time the devs remove the perks bonus that help with that. Why try to buff something only to take it away? The grind is difficult for rew players an having to pay small tax of BP to prestige is ridiculous. On side note imo if you do remove the BP gain from BBQ & chili why not add a new effect the same way "where gonna farm forever" got a mini soul gaurd ? Again why buff something or fix something only to nerf or remove what help that same issue in the first place? Remove the 50k BP tax for prestige an leave the blood point perks as they are. Alot of people like stacks an the extra BP. We can all agree playing this game gets stressful an the blood point bonus perks kinda help put up with that. Seeing how you remove that an added tax the game will be more drawn out an obnoxious, imo.
Yea don't get why they don't just do that. On that note the community seems very vocal on leaving BBQ an were gonna live forever alone just for the BP gain. Side note still don't get how one perk got a new effect but the ladder didn't.
Right. Apologies. The average amount of apathy bothers me. Anyway, they are still worse off in this case because of prestige tax which cannot be ignored unlike previously. They cannot get any more perks for their one character without paying the tax and they get sent back to level 1 where they must take a lot of junk and things they will never use. Like at level 50 they get your choice four perks and get to keep two. At low levels they are forced to take one whether they want it or not. This doesn’t even factor in the bbq and wglf loss.
Also shrine gambling is iffy unless I missed that going the way of the dodo. There’s a few perks I’ve wanted that have never come up, even during the daily masquerade rotation. I ended up buying the characters with shards instead. Now sure, latest perks like those of Cenobite, Onyro, Yoichi, Haddie and Dredge probably won’t appear for a while but still.
People who prestige gets to save all their items and addons, that is very nice. We who don't prestige at all might not se much change idk, other than that we can now prestige if we want without losing everything.
Prestiging will no longer be optional. Once you hit 50 you are forced to prestige for 50k bloodpoints or you can't proceed. Imo that's the worst thing about the change. It should be optional.
The only thing I can say is... I35 has the incorrect range in the sum :P
Unless I read it wrong the Shrine is now targeted. You will be able to just pick the perk you want and be done with it. So, if you want Blast Mine but never wanna mess with Leon you can just straight up BUY Blast Mine as an unlock.
From what I understand and seen on PTB there is still gonna only be 4 perks per week and on top of that they are gonna cost a lot more shards.
I think it is price pointed by the tier you are buying now?
This is because you have already leveled all other characters so of course your gonna unlock all perks straight away. But consider a new player who is just coming to the game for the first time. finding out everyone they go against was able to unlock perks so much easier given they only have to level 40 not 50 all characters.
Now agreed the perk obtaining has gone down. not by 75% that they promised but it was reduced however now the addon and offering grind has increased stupidly. Being knocked down to level 1 giving you 25ish bloodwebs of crap is just a waste of blood points.
Now with the loss of BBQ/WGLF along side the fact that finding bp offerings is even harder now its going to take so long to get the offerings/addons you want.
This is really going to effect content creators who are doing specific videos on certain addons/maps especially on new killers/survivors as finding enough addons to get a decent video is going to a lot harder now.
Just wanna say your amazing. You have proven time and time again that the "grind" isnt reduced as much as promised and you haven't even covered the fact that despite a grind reduction (not 75%) of perks is there that there has been an immence grind increase for addons/offerings. Would be very interested to see just how much more grinding is needed now to get consistant green+ addons/offerings
I never expected the grind reduction to actually increase the grind,what the heck!
I hate the new grind reduction and I think just getting rid of perk tiers was a much better solution.
No one wants to deal with tiny bloodweps that always give you brown addons every 50 levels by force,I hate that and I hate the new so called grind reduction.
Just removing perk tiers was so much better.
No one likes being forced to prestige and forced to reset to level 1 every 50 webs.
They need to get rid of the forced prestiging asap and the 50k bps cost,this would at least fix it somewhow,no one wants to go back to the tiny bloodwebs especially not forced to.
Or they could make it so prestige doesn't cost anything and instead of getting you to the small webs,you keep getting the big ones.
Anything else will just make it worse in terms of getting items and addons and a slap to the face for old players.
Perk tiers was the real problem and this just overcomplicates things and makes getting rarer items so much worse.
I rather get access to the big bloodweb than have to prestige for meaningless numbers,the grind nerf is a live,the grind has gotten so much worse in the long term.
I don't think the shrine is a good solutions, it is still random as far as I know and with 204 perks you can wait really long. Also, accumulating shards takes awhile, especially if you play mainly one side, and some people like to buy cosmetics without spending real money, so it might be unpleasant having to decide between cosmetics or reducing the grind.
I can't guarantee that my calculations are right, but if they are, you need 1.300 level to unlock all the perks on one survivor with the old system. With the new system you need already 1.479 Level to get all the characters to prestige 1 and at that point you still need to unlock 174 perk tiers (since you go back to level 1 after you prestige it is a bit harder to calculate how many levels you need, but I think 146). So what I'm trying to say is, it is worse if you play strictly one character and I already mentioned above why I don't think it is a good idea to rely on the shrine to solve that.
For me personally the change is not bad, I like having more perks on the survs that I have not leveled much (but many of my characters are only at 40, so I'm profitting that much from the new system because of the way the Devs transfer the teachables). But I think it will not help new players, the group who is affected to most by the grind much.
Isn't the Shrine on a permanent 24 hour rotation after the update though?
I know that not everybody cares for bloody skins, but how would old and new prestige compare if you take into account that in old system, in order to get prestige skins you had to waste 100 levels?
It isn't mentioned in the patch notes or the dev update so I don't think so:
I think the 24hour rotation was only for the event, but even if the shrine would rotate, you might not have enough shards available and you have less time to earn them. Also what I forgot to mention is, that you can also use shards to buy characters, so again it would put you into a situation where you have to decide between spending money or faster progression.
The calculations were done and raw numbers were given in clear, logic and transparent spreadsheet.
Why nobody from BHVR takes part in the discussion?
Again, the community proven you lied (whether intentionally or not) so maybe it's time to apologize and correct the error?
Actually, screw apologies noone cares for, we care only for the game. We want this game to be playable and ENJOYABLE by both newbies and veterans.
You have so many possibilities to massively cut the grind and you literally destroys the most likeable perks in the game. People take them because playing without BP bonus in the current situation makes NO SENSE for anybody who does not have every perk on every character.
PLEASE listen to the people who actually play the game.