We reduced the grind!! (except we kinda didn't) Part 2 Bloodpoint Boogaloo
Howdy folks, it's your favourite angry DBD nerd here to be annoyed a second time. I made a post after the "grind reduction" was first announced, where I did some math to determine that the grind reduction seemed to be in name only:
@KnotEnthusiast said:
So BHVR has announced their new reworked perk and BP system, claiming that at long last they have cut down on the grind. How wonderful! But I do have one question: who has it cut down the grind for? Cuz from what I can tell, most players will actually suffer from this new system, as long as you're striving to have complete builds. An example:
Lets say I'm John Q Newplayer, and I just installed DBD. I really like anime, want to flex that I know what the word "kanabo" means, and would like the katana I bought at my local strip mall to feel like it was worth the purchase, so I want to pick up Oni! But I want to have the option to play any way I want, so I want all of the perks on him. How hard will it be for me to do that?
Well under the old perk system, it was a heck of a feat. I had to get every killer, level up to level 40 on each one. Then take my boi Oni, and just keep leveling him until I had all perks. With the current system, that means I have to buy every perk 3 times to get the max level. Since there are 97 perks including the generics, I need to buy 291 perks. But! After level 40, I can get two perks per bloodweb, doubling my progress. So after 39 levels I have 42 perks (you get your 3 t1 perks for free), which means I have 249 to go, which I can do in 125 bloodwebs. So my final level count to unlock all of this is:
40 levels on each of the 28 killers, which is 1120. Add the 39 and 125, and you get 1284 levels. Dang, that's a grind! Now lets see how much the new system reduces it!
Now, teachables are gone, and everything is dictated by prestige. Heck yeah! So if I want all perks on my boi Oni, all I have to do is get P3 on every killer, then get the 15 levels to unlock Oni's 4 perk slots, and I'm in business. Math is pretty easy on this one, just get every single killer to P3 level 1, which is essentially level 150. So 28*150+15 equals...
4215. Thats....a lot. Way way more than 1284.
"But KnotEnthusiast!", I hear you cry, "When you get all perks on one killer, you get them on everyone!" And that is true! But all you have to do to get all perks on every killer is the 126 bloodwebs (because you got them all to level 40 for the teachable, but buying the 2 teachables cost you two perks). So if you keep doing that, then you can get all perks on 23 killers before you even get close to the same number of levels as getting all perks in the new system:
1284+126*23 = 4182 levels.
But hey, at least that's something, right? While it might be worse at first, after 24 killers you're making profit! And there's also an argument to be made that the bloodwebs from levels 1-30 are significantly less expensive than those at 50 up, reducing the effect a good bit. But there's one issue:
BBQ AND CHILI'S BONUS IS GONE.
Because of the "reduced" grind, the BP bonus from BBQ is gone. So if you were someone who ran the perk frequently (IE, literally everyone), then congrats, your BP gain has effectively halved. So all of the levels required in the new system are essentially doubled, making the total even more ridiculous. Not to mention that addons, items and offerings now essentially double in price for the same reason.
Another example: a vet player with all perks unlocked, when a new killer comes out. If you want their teachables on another killer, then you need to level them up 150 times. Whereas beforehand, it was 40 times, then whatever killer you wanted their teachables on either 5 or 6 times depending on entity RNG. So again, worse case scenario you can get the new perks on 18 killers (40+6*18 = 108) before you start reducing the grind at all, not factoring in the BBQ bonus loss.
I hope I'm missing something, because honestly this new system with the loss of the BBQ/WGLF bonus feels worse than the prior system. Plus you can no longer level one killer/survivor completely then use them to grind, you have to do everyone at once.
TL;DR: The "grind" has barely improved if at all based on the perk rework, and if you factor in the loss of BBQ or WGLF, then it has actually gotten worse.
This discussion was responded to by @Peanits :
@Peanits said:
There's one huge point you're missing with the new system: Once you've prestiged for the first time, a character's teachables are instantly unlocked at tier 1 and tiers 2 & 3 can be found in the bloodweb.
So in this hypothetical scenario where you're starting from scratch and only care about getting all perks on your Oni, you actually don't need to prestige all the others three times. You can prestige once with them and go right back to leveling up your Oni (even giving his Tier 3 perks to every other Killer in the process).
So the numbers would actually look like this:
27 * 50 = 1350 (levels to P1 all other Killers)
(84 * 2) + 39 = 207 (perk tiers to be found on your Oni)
40 of the bloodwebs will be between levels 40-50 and feature two perks.
So all in all, you'd need: 1350 + 207 - 40 = 1517 levels, the majority of which are smaller levels and not full sized level 50 ones, to get all the perks on your Oni.
And should you ever decide that Oni's not your cup of tea anymore and start working on your other Killers, you've only done an extra 57 Bloodwebs, so you haven't wasted a ton of time. The numbers very quickly start to turn in your favor after the first Killer.
Who said that the fact that you could get all killers to P1 and then level accordingly in the most efficient way possible would result in substantial BP gains as you leveled up more and more killers. So I've been thinking about that, and because I am a total nerd and dislike losing my sweet sweet BBQ bonus, I figured I'd actually calculate that value.
So! We can start by explaining what the most efficient way of getting all perks on every killer, then calculate the number of levels required, then compare them to the current method. I'm also going to ignore inherent inefficiencies in starting out leveling, such as that before you unlock any teachables in the new method, a small number of levels will be wasted on bloodwebs that have no perks, as you will not have enough perk levels to fill every bloodweb up to 50. I also will assume you get the RNG that results in the most favourable amount of bloodwebs possible, and no perks get eaten. I'll also be calculating for killer, because there are fewer and therefore less work.
Most efficient level up method in the new system:
Much like the most efficient method in the current build, the best way to get all perks starts with getting all teachables on every killer. So, every killer goes up to level 50, then prestiged. But once we hit this point, then things get a bit more complicated:
Between P1 and P3, there exist 100 levels that will unlock 120 perk tiers. However, as you P3 more and more killers, the number of perks you have to buy to complete a killer drops, as you unlock more teachables by P2 and P3ing. So to get the most optimal leveling system, you have to find the balance between leveling up killers to P3 to remove their tiers from later bloodwebs, but not so many that you're wasting BP that didn't need to be spent. So, being a good nerd, I did what I had to do:
I MADE A SPREADSHEET.
BPmaths.xlsx
Using this spreadsheet, I found that P3ing either 14 or 13 killers resulted in the least BP used, at roughly 3458 levels used. Notably less than the current 4182, but nowhere near the magical 75% reduction that the devs keep touting, and not even close enough to warrant the loss of BP bonuses on perks. This also isn't counting the new 50k BP fee to prestige, which is basically just an extra level that provides no perks to your total. I'd love to have my maths proven wrong, so if anyone sees a mistake, let me know.
TL:DR: I made a spreadsheet to find that the grind has reduced 18%, from 4182 levels required to 3458, not the magical 75%. According to Peanits, this should have been the most BP saved, but I'm still hard pressed to see how this new system required that BBQ and WGLF needed to be nerfed. This feels like the BP grind is simply going to get much worse, and urge the devs to make their BP bonuses base kit.
Comments
Current system:
1.5 Million bloodpoints to Prestige
50k per Bloodweb at Level 50
291 total perk levels
Keep all Killers at Level 50 (You do not prestige because you lose perks) - 62 total perk levels
28 Killers * 1.5 million = 42 million
Perk cost at level 50 = 25k
229 perk levels * 25k = 5,725,000
5,725,000 * 28 Killers = 160,300,000
Total cost having all Killers at Level 50 all perks No prestige = 202,300,000
Total cost having all Killers at Level 50 all perks Prestige 3 = 328,300,000
New System:
Prestige 3 Killer = 4.65 million
4.65 million * 28 Killers = 130,200,00
Reduction of 35% if you kept all Killers at level 50 comparing the old system to the new system.
Reduction of 60% if you P3 all Killers comparing the old system to the new system.
This is even WITHOUT min/maxing (You would have all perks before Prestige 3 the more Killers you have P3'd).
if you wanna do more math, you can also calculate it based on how many characters you want with all perks.
Based on what I did you need at least like 4 characters to make it at least same with current system. If you want only one (I play only one survivor for example), it's +/- 20% more BP than current system.
My man did it again. DAMNNNNN. I am officially ur number one fan, my nerd.
its clear the devs didnt put into account that the first few levels only award u crap addons and items, making it a worse grind either way. Specially if u have to PAY 50k BP to reset obligatory I may add.
another thing that was never put into account: rarity means very little on many killers, many Iri are trash and not worth it.
You know, it wouldn't be hard to massively improve this system.
Make all bloodwebs after you prestige to Prestige 1 a "level 50 bloodweb" with 4 perks, allow prestiging to the next prestige at level 20 after you've reached Tier 1. And of course, remove the 50k upgrade cost, please. It makes no sense that it's there if you truly want to reduce the grind.
The average bloodweb at 50 costs around 50k if ran optimally, but for 2 perks. With this change, not only would the total amount of BP to reach P3 be reduced by quite a lot (1450k down to about 1m bp), but you'd also get more perks along the way.
Doesn't this sound good? Now that prestiging is mandatory I don't see any other way. You could also make the next prestige 25 bloodwebs or so, that would be a nice number that's exactly half of the original Level 50, but would still cost 1250k to get to from level 1.
What do you all think? Everyone can see that going straight down to Level 1 bloodweb is unreasonable, and I think my idea of keeping the level 50 bloodweb, but being able to prestige after only 25 levels is absolutely excellent.
but he did the numbers, and I redid his math and all checks out. I think u guys should at least show us something either to disprove that or confirm it was a mistake and chamge it before going live. Its the bare minimum tbh
So...you're agreeing with me. A 30% reduction if you're just going for perks. There's no reason to P3 currently unless you're a completionist or going for bloody outfits. And if you are calcing in going for the cosmetics, then it isn't fair to not do the same for the new system, where you have to go to P6 to get the full outfit, so every single killer would have to be P6.
Peanuts explained it pretty well also, if you don't understand and wish to keep spreading misinformation so be it.
no he didn’t. “Explaining” something when the math goes contrary means nothing. Its like saying gravity pushes things up because birds fly.
If you take into account earning bloody cosmetics (which is the only real reason to get to P3 currently), then you have to compare to getting all bloody cosmetics on the new system, which is as expensive as it seems:
It costs more in the new system to get all perks and bloody cosmetics than it did in the old.
Peanits said something that I then immediately disproved. If you see a flaw in how I calculated cost based on level tier, I look forward to hearing your correct version.
As pointed out, the smaller bloodwebs have lower quality add-ons along while only being able to get one perk per bloodweb. It's not about how quickly the bloodwebs are completed so much as how much value you're getting per web (and therefore your BP). And if the value of each web stays approximately the same, then cutting the BP gains by nerfing BBQ/WGLF is a net loss. As for hiding it behind reducing "the perk grind", I feel like that's not inherently the only problem and actually makes the grind harder in many other instances.
Calculate it as 1.5 million points for each Prestige and 50k for each bloodweb at level 50.
Do you not understand with the old system you have to do level 50 bloodwebs regardless of Prestige and with the new system you don't?
As you mentioned, the crux of the issue is that lower tiers are cheaper, but they offset the reduced cost by having only 1 perk in each. In order to be saving significant amounts of BP, tiers below 40 would have to average to less than half the cost of ones above, which they just do not.
bruh, smaller bloodwebs give u no real value after the update and u still are foced to go through them wasting BP regardless.
I dont want another brown medkit and I dont want another 20 levels of brown and yellow crap. I want my best items and best addons right of the bat, like it is when u hit level 50 infinitely.
Just take a look at the spreadsheet bro. Its all there, redo the math if u will. But OP is right, facts are facts the math has been done and u and the devs are wrong. If u dont believe it, just go to the PTB and brute force ur way in the Bloodweb and youll see
? Demo has great iri addons and Hag best addons are green/purple. Anyway, the addon grind (which always was the most problematic one) seemingly is about to get even worse indeed. This mid chapter update truly is looking grim in every way.
They both have super playable browns and yellows, though. Hag's are only a small step down from the greens and you hardly notice the difference, and Demo's addicted to Black Heart and Barb's Glasses even more than the dope aura reading from Leprose Lichen. And Hag's only good purple is Rusty Shackles; the rest are awful. Mostly, those killers can live without having consistent access to their higher-end stuff, where killers like Trapper and Doctor are going to hurt for it.
The specifics don't really matter, though, as long as the point that everyone's going to lose steady access to higher rarity items and offerings stands.
Alright mate, lets do it your way.
Rather than calculating the number of BP used per level set, we can just use your 1.5mil per prestige number. It's low by 100k according to my estimates, heavily skewing the results in favour of the new system, but sure.
Even with your rough-estimated system skewing the results, in the best case scenario possible, you're still at only 50%.
When you look at the way it works it actually does reduce the grind for perks, but when it comes to the old p3 outfits you've just increased the grind for new players to get there when you have to prestige 6 times just for the outfit, and think about what that does to new players you just made the grind more overwhelming for the people you were supposed to be reducing it for because nobody that's played this game for years is in a situation where they truly have to grind to get things it's a chapter by chapter deal once you're leveled up, new players are gonna see those outfits and want them but 6 prestiges to get it might just make someone new throw the game away when they start delving into how many characters they need to buy just to feel like they have a decent perk selection.
I agree completely with OP. Removing BBQ and WGLF from the game is like cutting a maple leaf from Canadian flag. These perks are so iconic (especially BBQ) that removing them just hurts...
On top of that using BBQ is simply and objectively - fun. It shows survivors that are really far away from used hook so you are discouraged from camping. Fun for everyone! At the same time, cutting off BP bonus would make this perk not worth to use at all.
These perks should remain untouched.
Grind is obviously a massive problem, especially for newcomers. If i had purchased this game now, found out how cool BBQ/WGLF is and then realizing they are about to gut these perks - I'd immediately go for a refund. Let the playerbase expand by effectively reducing the grind. Cutting prices in the bloodweb would've been enough. You chose more complicated path and completely screwed most loved perk in the game that is not toxic like DH or DS.
I ask kindly to refrain from touching BBQ and WGLF.
After hitting prestige level 9, the only reason I would prestige again is for high rarity items, and the easiest way to get those is with the level 50 bloodwebs. So unless new rewards are added as an incentive for P10+, the low cost bloodwebs are actually entirely pointless for someone like me.
However, I do like the low level bloodweb system for any prestige level before P9 because my goal would be to get the rewards as cheaply as possible, so items and addons would be secondary at that point. It's similar to how I prestige in the current system, I go for the cheapest costing items until I hit P3 to get the bloody cosmetics cheaply and once I'm done I start stocking up on more expensive items/addons
So.. what Peanits is saying does make sense and he has a point, but that only lasts until you hit P9. If rewards are never added beyond that point then the cheaper bloodwebs lose value.
Every change except BBQ and WGLF is amazing. Idea of gutting BBQ and WGLF should be scrapped entirely
In the bloodweb it should be 1000 bp for browns, and 1000 more for each rarity. Instead of the stupid thing that it is, which is starting the cheapest thing at 3000.
NOICE!
OP disproved that bro statement, bro.
really bro?
I think people would rather you ruin the hard work for your input, there’s a lot of concerns here. Still could you do me a big favour and answer these things?
Ultimately from where most people sit the 75% number is misleading at best and an outright lie at worst. The 75% number was used to say the amount of hours you’d need to unlock things initially which even at the time I thought was misleading because most people don’t care to unlock every perk on every survivor and maybe not every killer, just the ones they use.
Regardless, a lot of people seem to be concerned and there’s a simple way to at least temporarily appease: Don’t force prestige.
i prefer the old prestige because i didnt need to spend millions of bp on people i only wanted perks from. i agree that the lower levels do cut down bp but no one wants the bad brown/yellow addons, unless youre a killer who benefits from that, but so help me god if i have to force buy 20 more toolbox instructions or 30 more course stones im gonna uninstall the game.
not but seriously, the way this new prestige looks to someone whos fairly new to the game and only has a few select characters p3, im genuinely worried for the grinding im gonna be forced to do, sure keeping all items/addons is great, i dont have to lose my halloween items when i prestige mikaela, amazing, but its still dreary to think about everything else on top of that.
the lvl 50 bloodwebs also give you better items, better addons and have more variety, also the "forced to prestige" and "50k tax" is really stupid because lvl 50 bloodwebs /cost/ you 50k, so you have to pay that to prestige AND you get nothing.. how exactly is that "reducing the grind"
i like the p3-100 idea, but its better in theory and honestly not that worth it all things considered. especially since they have not changed how the p3/now p6 cosmetics work; you have to wear some ugly base outfit to flex that youve wasted hours into the game, over doing what they did to plague/nemesis and letting you just have bloody versions of the outfits you do like, when people have been asking for this for a while. (seriously, some of the character i want to prestige have the ugliest base outfits and is the sole reason i havent prestiged them)
also, if im correct, it should still cost roughly same from level to level, because instead of yellow perks, you're now just getting yellow items and so on so forth. the randomness of the perks made it fun, you get to use niche perks as you have nothing else (which also can help eliminate people sticking to the same 4 perks every game, because you find lifting pallets with amn in the killers face is fun and risky)
i feel like an easier way to reduce grind would just to be to remove the bp cap so you can just save up infinitely for whatever purpose you want. i mean seriously, why is cap a million when if you get double iri 1, you get 2 million bloodpoints? just remove the bloody cap already. i understand the cap was put in place for when cheating in bp was much easier, but times have changed old man
also as a part time huntress main, i dont run bbq because i havent leveled bubba up, but i no longer have desire to run that perk due to the bp loss. i play just fine without it, and i knew it'd be a good perk for huntress, but its really not worth trying to get anymore, the bp bonus was a crutch to what made that perk better over others, same with wglf
Yeah lol OP made another spreadsheet to disprove peanits haha
the man is savage
Wow! You gotta respect a man who can put a spreadsheet to work LOL. g'dayum
Honestly, the fact you will be forced to back to level 1 is already extremely dissapointing, there is extreme gameplay value difference when we can utilize all the addons and when we can not, it's basically making the game less interesting at the cost of marginal reduction in grind.
This 100%. Now many more people will realise how much worse this new progression system is gonna be.
i wonder why people (and i include myself too) still play this game... they are literally mocking us each time that they release something at this point...
The problem is - Both systems sucks pretty badly. Old ones sucks significantly, new one sucks Tremendously. If they just DID NOT FREAKING TOUCHED BBQ AND WGLF everything would be fine. If they REALLY want to remove Bloodpoints bonus from perks - ok it's stupid but let them do it THEIR way. In this scenario simply cut prices in the bloodweb by half. No? you don't want to? Ok then - maybe add WGLF and BBQ bonus blodpoint as a base feature of every killer? hmm? does it sound right? Still No no? OK - final thought then. Make rewards in all four categories basically doubled by default, i.e. hitting a survivor = 600, hooking for the first time = 1000, catching a survivor = 1200 and also obviously make the cap for each of these categories 16 000 instead of 8 000. Sounds like a good plan to EFFECTIVELY reduce the stupid grind right?
Hey! And there's also a protip if you didn't know - if the implemented solution is not working as expected (the solution suggested by BHVR is supposed to fail obviously) you can REVERT it... Just... Letting you know... so you can maybe check out playerbase suggested solutions...
I really don't know why are you BSing us about this grind reduction. Noone is going to end up being happier if you gut BBQ and WGLF. Simple solutions seems to give the best results in this scenarios.
Imagine forcing new players to level 1 character up to P3 one by one in order to spent the least amount of BP.
Actually it's p1.
P1 for tier 1, you still need to level the perks up with the bloodweb and why waste that BP if you could go for p3.
I spent 100+ levels to get BBQ on Pinhead.
(Thx BHVR for scrapping the one reason i p3'd LF)
Because if you gonna go for p3 from just beginning of the game, you'd waste lot of levels for no perks.
@Peanits Explain 😕
The most brutal, annoying and disgraceful thing about BHVR is they will never admit to making mistakes. They will go for the idea they had designed, even if the entire community would tell them it's bad.
Admitting to mistake is never a loss. It's victory over ignorance.
@Peanits - Everything would be perfectly fine if you hadn't touched BBQ/WGLF. Just Don't. Seriously. I beg you.
@Peanits To be fair you make your case and your case gets thrown out with more Math. What other possible workaround could you come up with to justify removing the blood point bonus' from BBQ and WGLF. And before you say it, because I know you will. Saying "its to allow players to run other perks not have their BBQ as a base perk in every build" this game is how we want to play it not how you want us to play it. Don't wanna see the blood point perks in every game. Make it base kit. You did it with BT (which i don't really agree on but thats for another day) so why not do it with blood points. You Lose nothing for making it base kit or keeping the bonus' in but you lose all respect from the community for removing it.
It's utterly amazing how much straightforward, logical, maths a person can put effort into presenting, then the PR guy's response is just "that's wrong" and people just respond with "WoW oP gOt OwNeD"
lmao
this guy is actually right. BHVR tries to settle things using some Public Relations BS. In this scenario I hope people won't be so stupid to believe in those lies.
Another thing is - as someone already pointed out - you literally gave survivors BT functionality to their base kit. Fine. I really have no problem with that and find balance changes necessary and even good.
On the other hand removing bloodpoints gain in perks while at the same time talking BS about grind reduction - it's simply absurd. It's as if priest would open an abortion clinics.
Though it may be true that the new system has reduced the grind for perks(for mostly those who have been playing for a while and not for newer players) but you have made the grind for add-ons, items, and offerings significantly worse. The way I see it is you didn't reduce the grind but only shifted it towards things other than perks. I don't know if you know this but most of the lower rarety addons on most killers are kinda garbage and are not worth running. A lot of your killer's better add-ons are higher rarety add-ons which the new system has made it harder to get since you have to go back to smaller bloodwebs after prestiging. Shoot some killers(aka PH and Freddy) 90% of their add-ons are really bad and they only have one or two good add-ons(those are much higher rarety add-ons). I refer you to otz's addon tier list and you can see a lot of your brown addons on killers are not very good. So yeah you may have reduced the perk grind but after perks, ppl go for add-ons, items, and offerings which you have made that grind much much wrost. None of this wouldn't be that much of an issue tho if you made bbq and wglf bp bonus base kit and rewarded players for doing small side objectives like hooking all everyone at least once in a match or going out of your way to pick up or rescue a dying teammate.
The thing is they want to put an insentive for the matchmaking issue witch is only for cross on witch nobody like to play with pc hackers. Pretty bad idead.
How does it fit the discussed topic?
something id like to add is that they removed the bp bonus from bbq so it wouldnt be the deciding factor for that perk but they made meme addons way more common because of the way the new bloodweb works.. and the meme addons usually always have a 100% bp bonus.. guess they didnt think through the "we dont want bloodpoints to be the deciding factor of builds" like yeah but now people are gonna run more bp focused addons because theyre going to get them more over the rarer and actually good addons.
Not really. Understanding math and anything more than a paragraph is too hard for some people. It’s basically the equivalent of “Shut up nerd!”. So insert a ‘witty’ meme picture and all is right with the world.
This ultimately stems from the insecurity of their own intelligence. Sad thing is this usually gains traction most of the time because “Well if this guy said it, it must be true and I don’t need to feel stupid because I can’t formulate my own opinions”.
In the end they deceive themselves into believing one lie after another and end up making the world worse for everyone ultimately because they don’t think for themselves and worse don’t try to improve themselves or understand other perspectives. Because that’s not cool ‘yo’.
This digression has been truly pointless.
Whose lies are you talking about?
Wait, wdym they are removing teachables.
I thought that besides the current "you unlock teachables from level 30 - 40 and they start to appear in other characters bloodweb" you also unlock those perks for everyone if you prestige (prestige 1, tier 1 of those 3 teachables). I know you will be able to prestige once and then find those perks in the bloodweb to tier up but..