Slowpeach
Slowpeach
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Franklin's.
It's a perk that interferes with the game outside of the trial and it absolutely should be changed. Also to interfere so much with a survivors' load out so much is unhealthy for build diversity. Can you imagine if the reverse was applied? Like if the killer was stunned, their addons lose their effect for x amount of time or worse their power was disabled? They would be up in arms and for good reason.
But no, lets instead introduce another perk which works with it perfectly while screwing over solo queue at the same time!
Knock out
A perk that makes the worst part of the game even worse. It's amazing that BBQ is on the same killer as these two horrid perks because they just reek bad design.
Boil Over
This perk is such a beginners trap that tricks weaker players into thinking it stops them getting hooked but the fact its theoretically possible to become unbookable with it? Yeah. This thing needs to die in a fire.
Break out
Same category as Boil Over but the thing that really gets me is that the killer has no notification that this perk is in effect despite the effect being significant. Yes I love being silly with Mad Grit. I'd been fine with it if I knew I was under the effect of it.
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@[Deleted User] said:
I'm not the biggest SM fan, but these are some ridiculous nerfs. What is she supposed to be good at? How is her power supposed to be used? The changes force SM players to lean into parts of her kit players hated the most (drop drone at loop, stand there and rotate beams). It's a bit worrisome that we're at this point and it still doesn't seem like they know what players didn't like about her.
Given how the Twins rework took 3 years and was DOA immediately when it hit the PTB, I don't think we should be giving the benefit of the doubt that a solution is forthcoming.
Players are always going to harbor a hatred towards the character because she's not what the community wanted. Not after Knight. I remember when her reveal hit and players thought it was a joke. She was yet another A tier killer with an autopilot zoning power on release. And she coincided with the Overbrine meta. Did you ever eat a food as a child that was so horrible you never gave it another chance? That's what is happening with SM. It doesn't matter what they do with her power. These nerfs aren't going to fix anything.
There's a lot of good things articulated well here. It's all been said in different ways before but it's well said here. The food analogy is absolutely spot on. They would have to completely redesign her in one of the many ways I've seen, even rename and redesign her base apperance before she has a chance of being accepted.
The worst part about it is that it's self perpetuating. People who want easy/easier wins and don't care about other people's enjoyment know people suicide on hook vs. Skull Merchant, so they play her and make sure to check as many 'you are not going to have any fun this game' boxes as possible. People then complain about Skull Merchant and BHVR's data supports this which we know they don't understand correctly only looking at raw numbers rather than how they got there. I wonder if this trend will continue seeing how weak she is now, but my money is on yes.
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@PixelBush said:
Everyone knew this was going to happen. Let's go through the changes to Skull Merchant with a nit comb and talk about what makes these changes such a comprehensive failure.
- Stealth Mode going means that the setup playstyle where you leave drones in the environment and hide them to catch people out is totally invalidated.
- Moving at 110% while holding radar out punishes you for using your tracking power to track Survivors. Yay, I love being encouraged not to use my power outside of chase or track Survivors who are Clawtrapped!
- The fast vault change combined with moving at 110% while holding radar out means that drones in tiles are more trouble to use than they're worth 90% of the time. If you can get Survivors in a position where the drone can scan them, you're almost always better off just not using your power and M1-ing instead. That takes a full health state, doesn't make you 110%, works with Bloodlust and can actually hit Survivors vaulting pallets and windows.
- Lasertagging doesn't work: your drone beam doesn't spawn consistently out of the front any more, but instead at a semi-random angle. This means that placing your drone intelligently in such a way to light up a Surv with your beam by aiming it at them does nothing, meaning you're 110%-ing yourself, burning your power cooldown and breaking Bloodlust for a power that has a 90% chance of doing absolutely nothing even if you aim correctly.
So you can't trap, you can't precisely aim, and rotating a drone already placed in a tile slows you down, takes several seconds to start up between placing and pulling the radar out and is countered by a Survivor using a pallet or window. The anti-chase power is hard countered by a Survivor's basic chase mechanics. This Killer's power literally has nothing you can do any more; every mechanic she had has been removed or made unusably restrictive.
In my first game against new Skull Merchant, she didn't even get a single Lock On stack until three generators were completed. Not a Clawtrap, A SINGLE LOCK ON STACK. Clueless Survivors will still lose to her but only because someone on their team gave up (or because they're so incompetent they would lose to a Killer without a power.)
One beam Merchant with no Haste was a great idea to rebalance the Killer away from randomly hurling drones at tiles and encouraging a more methodical and strategic play style around precisely manipulating drones. With these changes, the only rebalancing that was done was rebalancing her into the dumpster, and the only strategy you can use to win is the strategy of not playing her and playing any other Killer instead.
Players both in and out of the Skull Merchant playerbase left plenty of feedback both before and after the midchapter PTB to provide suggestions and signposts to make Merchant a healthier Killer without slaughtering her, but it fell on deaf ears. (For what it's worth, I will be leaving my own suggestions in another post in the appropriate section of the forum). I truly wish I was not so angry, I know BHVR has a lot to do, but it is not acceptable to leave a Killer in this state for a year: something has to be done, and quickly. If you could find the development time to hurl my favourite Killer into a mincing machine and call it a balance patch, you can find the time to fish her out again.
There's so many underlying things wrong with the way BHVR manages things and Skull Merchant is no exception. The ironic thing is if their goal was to gut the killer and prevent people from killing themselves on hook against her they failed at that too because they kept the thing that everyone hates about her in as you and Scott both said. I'd be willing to bet that people are STILL going to hook suicide against Skull Merchant and she's still going to have a kill rate that is not remotely proportion to her ability.
I really wish I could gather a bunch of people and create some competition and learns from the mistakes from those that tried. DBD has to be the worst balanced game that still gets actively updated and it's no wonder everybody gets excited (then let down) whenever something looks like it might be able to get BHVR to raise their game.
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The ironic thing is that I think it was survivor sided last time too. However why were the queues so long if it was survivor sided? Three major reasons.
- You could play with your friends on killer.
Many SWF or now KWF are not 4 mans, they are 2 or 3 mans. However now teams of 2 can play on killer. This naturally makes more people gravitate over to killer. - Survivor doesn't really get a new experience.
The game is largely the same for them. Whether its 7 team mates or 3 the game is largely the same and if anything is lesser because perks are cut off and the substitute isn't interesting. Compared to killer and all the things you can do with a team mate. - Playing survivor is kinda boring.
The game at it's core (whether 2vs8 or not) has a problem with a lack of engaging gameplay on survivor. The older version of 2v8 is a core example of this. There's very little survivors could do aside from do gens, heal or save. Chases are where the game is at it's best but because of 2v1 situations chases are usually extremely short and the survivor feels put in a lose/lose situation where they had no winning moves. Even if that is balanced because 7 players are left unchecked that does not make it fun. Even if you lose on killer you can still get some good gameplay in, not so on survivor and in some cases not so even if you win.
Some of this is 'helped' by saves being restored but the problem with saves is that they are part of the toxic arms race. That is slugging is done to prevent saves, saves are done because survivors want another form of interactive gameplay and then everything that comes in response to this which is an endless toxic cycle from both sides.
I've always said 2vs8 is a bad idea and a case of 'careful what you wish for' and people wouldn't like it once the novelty wore off and I've seen little to convince me otherwise. 2v8 exposes DBD for how shallow the survivor experience is at its core. It significantly lessens one of the best parts of the game and what it gets in exchange isn't worth it.
So what happens when we get it? Surprise! Far fewer people want to play survivor, even if the mode overall favors them.
- You could play with your friends on killer.
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@Zakon05 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3769318#Comment_3769318
I don't think the killer queues are due to survivors not enjoying the mode. I mean part of it is because of the small killer pool but not being able to have 2 of the same killer in a match.
But really, it ties into why the queues for the base game are also bad.
I was having trouble figuring that one out, but I asked about it in a thread and someone pointed it out to me: survivor is the more played role because you can play with friends. Killers can now also play with friends.
Most SWFs are not 4-stacks. They're often just 2 people playing together. Those people make up a sizable population of the survivor playerbase. Now they can play killer instead and not have to be stuck with 2 randos. So I wouldn't be surprised if the overwhelming majority of the survivor playerbase in 2v8 mode are solo queue players like me.
While I do think 2v8 mode is the superior solo queue exprience, it does come with a tradeoff of losing the skill expression for things like flashlight blinds, saves, sabos - you don't really feel their loss in solo queue because they rarely happen in solo queue to begin with. SWFs would feel it, though.
Speaking of which, I hope you understand that the cages would not work in 1v4 for this reason. You can't just add all the nice benefits that the cages have in 1v4 without also taking away the ability for survivors to deny hooks with saves and sabos and bodyblocks. It's a tradeoff. Because you can deny the killer a hook, the killer can make unhooks really unpleasant. It's also a tradeoff that only really matters to SWFs, because I know that a lot of killers would gladly agree to lose out on tunneling and camping as pressure tools if they could never be denied a hook.
It’s slightly off topic and I’m not even sure I want to go down this rabbit hole because nothing will change and I’ll just upset a lot of people but the problem with flashlight saves, sabo and pallet saves is that in many scenarios especially if the survivors are coordinating, the killer is in a lose/lose scenario. Their only winning move is to slug and we all know if that is done a lot, that’s not a lot of fun either and even that only works if they can down people quickly enough which some maps won’t allow, which at the height of swf will also be handpicked. Yes this scenario is uncommon but it doesn’t change the fact it’s awful gameplay when it does occur and it probably should be removed ideally in place of something else.
There’s a reason why comp is full of survivor restrictions and hand picked maps. This gameplay adds false depth which is justified by the fact there’s very little else. Doing gens is hardly the height of exciting gameplay.
In any case I think the lack of survivor population is both. Getting two tapped sucks, ironically for similar reasons about saves, it’s very easy to put survivors in lose/lose scenarios and ultimately whether it’s 4 survivors 8 or 50 that advantage only matters for doing generators. The base gameplay loop doesn’t change at all. Killer though is a totally different thing. I do agree though most ‘swf’ is duos, and now you can do that with killers, there’s less reason to do so on survivor.
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@Zakon05 said:
What's so bad about playing survivor in this mode?
I'm genuinely curious because survivor isn't really a role I enjoy too much in 1v4, but I find survivor in 2v8 to be considerably more enjoyable.
There's tons of pallets so you can use them freely and don't need to worry that much about preserving them, tons of generators so you don't need to worry about doing the wrong generators and 3-genning yourself, having other people work on a gen with you is actually good for once and not throwing. Killers can't camp and it's hard for them to tunnel. Killers have no regression so you aren't constantly having your gen progress reset.
Beyond that, it's just the regular survivor gameplay experience of looping killers and doing gens, but with a lot of alleviated pain points.
If you enjoy it fair enough. Good for you. Still though I think considering how bad killer queues are… a lot of people do not. It really comes down to shiny new toys for one side and the lack of skill expression for the other.
You are right about the pros and there are things which certainly could be added or taken to the base game if certain people wouldn’t… riot upon unhealthy mechanics being removed but that’s another issue.I’ll also add that lesser skilled or newer players are likely to enjoy it more because their chases tend to be short anyway and all players regardless of how many perks they have unlocked have the exact same tools available. Not saying you aren’t skilled of course and even if you aren’t (to be fair I’m not great in chase so…) that shouldn’t be a restriction for your own or anyones enjoyment or invalidate any opinion or preferences.
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Yup. Balanced or no isn’t the point and really in mode with this level of chaos that doesn’t matter. It’s simply not fun because there’s no skill expression on survivor. Dbd is at its best during chases and these are cut short in ways that survivors can do nothing about due to the 2 killers cutting you off with ease. Sure as killer it’s a blast doing this and working together with massive synergy but there’s no counterplay as survivor.
I think the faster pace and discouraging of slugging and significantly lower effectiveness of tunnelling and camping is excellent but that doesn’t matter when everything else is so bad on survivor and the game doesn’t have its best parts. Knew this would be the problem and thought BHVR would never do it because of this extremely obvious design flaw.
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@tippy2k2 said:
Nobody wants to play as survivors for what feels like pretty obvious reasons. There's just not a ton for survivors to actually do. The unique aspect of this event is getting a second killer to help you but 4 survivors, 8 survivors, 500 survivors, it makes no real difference in the gameplay for survivors.
It's what I said when the mode was announced and people swore it needed to be permanent; the mode isn't going to gain any legs or traction if no survivors want to play it and right now, even with a 400% BP bonus, there's just no real reason to play as survivor once you have your Tome done.
Yeah even when people were saying ‘I want 2v8’ I immediately thought “Not going to happen because the game isn’t balance to handle two killers chasing and there would be nothing interesting for survivors”. I was pretty damned stunned when they announced it about sure enough it had all base design problems I thought it would. Admittedly nowhere near as bad as I thought it would be if only because there’s certain features that should be in the base game anyway in this but meh…
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I’m glad some people are enjoying it, especially on survivor.
I personally don’t (on survivor at least) and I think it’s a lack of skill expression. I like the faster aspect of the game absolutely though and I think there are things the base game could take from this. However combining perks in unique waysand chases are what I like but most of the time chases are cut short because of the 2v1 and there’s nothing you can do. Killer even gets aura on anyone in a chase making it easy to cut off survivors. Not talking from a balance stand point of course. Just a subjectively fun one. As I said though I’m glad people do like it.Incidentally I do think weaker or newer survivor players will enjoy this more because their chases don’t tend to be as long either way and the faster pace of the game means less time doing nothing meaningful (being slugged, proxy camped and/or tunnelled results in a lot of nothing gameplay which isn’t fun and more likely to happen to less experienced players). No offence intended, not everyone can be good especially at first and I only consider myself so so in chase but having fun in a game should be something where skill level doesn’t matter.
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Yeah not surprised there isn't a replacement AI, even if it just tried to m1 (even on Nurse).
It annoys me a fair bit that there isn't more emphasis on the AI in this game because there's a lot of people who don't play because humans can be absolute jerks. Especially when playing solo survivor.
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@Peanits said:
It is not just you. A lot of people are excited to play Killer with a friend for the first time so there is a disproportionately high number of Killers are not enough Survivors to fill each of their lobbies. We've greatly increased the incentive for player Survivor in the meantime to help balance out the queue a little bit, but it's safe to say that Killer queue times will remain longer in 2v8 for at least a little while.
Really should have had some survivor bots for people who just want to have a go now. There's really not much new for survivors in this mode, is it honestly surprising the queues are that titled? Make such modes give bloodpoints too. Lesser of course but yeah, more single player/vs. AI modes please.
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It's not just that two killer synergy is a bright new shiny toy, it just feels powerless on survivor when two killers work together to down you and because they get aura reading it's super easy. Not saying its killer sided or us vs. them garbage like that, in pure game play balance terms there's a cost to using this strategy, this isn't a balance concern (talking about balance in something like this is silly of course). This is a 'is it fun' concern and I like to have a bit of agency and decision making in my games. Getting two tapped when there's nothing I can realistically do is just awful.
Even more then that survivors are perfectly used to working with multiple people. There is very little new in this mode for them aside roles which are basically on the most part modified perks. So yeah. I'd have been extremely surprised if queues weren't massively tilted to killers even if survivors didn't need four times the players.
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@Raptorrotas said:
"Survivors now are instantly sacrificed if all of them are incapacitated and have no means of standing up"
There "excessive" slugging fixed.
AAnyways, stop badmouthing killers who want that 4k. Its jarring especially because survivors are constantly crying they dont escape.
TThey should be happy with doing their quarter of work on gens and just stop trying afterwards, thats what this argument sounds like. Your dog doesnt get euthanized if you dont do 2 gens. (Unlike sirvivors, this is sarcasm)
I dunno I just think it's well known how much misery slugging causes yet people still do it anyway. I think that's worth badmouthing people for. Perhaps I shouldn't have because it's getting off topic.
For what it's worth I play killer more but want to play survivor more but don't partly because of this. You probably won't believe that but whatever it's the truth.
In any case, your solution is 'better' then what we've got now but it doesn't solve the problem of 2 survivors remaining and killer can't find last so makes the other one do nothing for four-five minutes. Surely people must concede that's unacceptable and if they don't… well such opinions show a complete lack of empathy and seeing things from viewpoints aside their own.
@Neaxolotl said:
It's only "excessive" when four survivors are downed and all of them are forced to bleed out
I mean let's be reasonable here, only "good" method to fix that situation is by finishing it up and calling it a 4k for killers
Also stop giving killers an incentive to 4k, there is so many of it and it's stupid
Hatch is never meant to be granted for survivors free either, if people seriously believes they must always get a hatch just do no mither
With that logic you might as well take hatch away at this point because players who want to deny it can do so. That would still be preferable because killers then wouldn't slug for the 4k. Don't care about winning, losing, escaping or whatever, just hate wasting 4-5 minutes doing nothing and no Unbreakable does not help because it only works once and you have to basically use it when the other guy is on hook because they just find you and down you again. If the killer bleeds both out, Unbreakable is useless.
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@AbsolutGrndZer0 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3733779#Comment_3733779
What would stop the competitive players from playing in casual for 'easier' games?
Incentives or bragging rights for doing well in comp like rankings or anything for people to give a damn about. You are ultimately not going to fix everything and some people will play just to stomp but that's already true.
If anything the reverse could be a problem. Would there be a shortage on killers willing to play casual where things are harder? Going into details about how both would work, potential problems, pitfalls and solutions would be glossed over by almost everybody if not everybody.
Whatever the case for as long as things stay the way they are, almost nobody is going to be happy. If anyone has a better idea for how to deal with the casual/comp and swf/solo divide I'm all ears.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
I dont see any change of Builds. Seems like the Nerfs were not as severe if I see at least two of the nerfed Slowdown-Perks in every game.
It's more there's a lack of alternatives. The nerfed perks are still the best choices but honestly this game on the most part has been balanced towards the side that wants to win more. There's so many ways to tilt the odds in your favor at the cost of variety between killers that are much stronger then the rest, map offerings and loads of other toys.
I do dislike the term 'gen rush' though because what else are the survivors supposed to do if they aren't getting chased? Are people really that conditioned by some players they get matched up against doing their throw the game tomes? The tomes that try to make the game seem like it has more depth then it actually does? It's gens, chases and hooks. Very little else most of the time. This is why slow down is so dominant. Because chase perks in general don't shorten chases enough to outperform slowdown perks. For example can you imagine if Bamboozle was 100% vault speed or something? Chases simply wouldn't feel rewarding for either side. That's a simple example but you could extend that to similar perks.
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This is why this game needs casual and competitive. One of DBD's biggest problems is that the game tries to appease both, fails and appeases nobody.
Casual should be balanced around solo queue and thus be more survivor sided.
Competitive should be balanced around SWF and thus should be more killer sided.
More information should be available in competitive to both sides however dodging should be harshly punished with waits before you can queue again.
This is obviously extremely oversimplified and details would be need to ironed out in a way a comment here won't do but just a general outline.
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@drsoontm said:
The increased sabo speeds + the new map = survivors enjoying being slugged to death.
That's all.
Then complaining at you for slugging when you have no other gameplay options because they've never played the other side. They like to think they are clever and that they've gamed the system which in a way they have, with one exception. Doing something that is not allowed by the Survivors Rule Book ™. You are supposed to continually fail at hooking anyone while they giggle and laugh.
It's stuff like this (and other things) why I don't try on killer anymore. My rule is 2 hook everybody. If 3 generators have been completed before I can achieve this, everyone lives. If not, the best player lives and with the way matchmaking works and expects one veteran to carry three dead weights, this is usually extremely obvious. My rating basically tanks to a point where I can still get a challenge occasionally but survivors almost never try to do stuff like this and if they do, it is laughably bad attempts.
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It's meh. The drawback is too severe. Running it with No Mither to negate some of the drawback with some positives basically advertises to the killer 'check the basement'.
It is at least time efficient now. Sort of. You spend 60 seconds in basement to gain 70 seconds of global progress however only 50 of that may actually matter. It's even less effective if generators are completed before you use it. It also wastes time getting to and from basement. Even without being broken for the rest of the trial it would be only passable because it uses a perk slot over something else that boosts gen speeds.
You get more value on average from deja vu, which shaves off 9 seconds per applicable generator as well as giving you the knowledge of where the three gens are. That's also before regression and the killer will most likely spend time regressing any generator buffed by deja vu. It also doesn't require you waste time walking to the basement nor with the risks involved being there while broken.
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It's no secret that BHVR like the 'lost and confused' vibe that survivors get when in solo queue and can't coordinate. Even if this philosophy is completely incompatible with balancing the game overall and for SWF as well. However from what I've seen they always value 'feel and looks' more important then engaging gameplay.
There's a reason it took them ages to merely put in simple icons that tell players what they are doing. I mean these only do so much anyway because i can't count the number of times where one survivor is in a chase, I'm hanging on a hook and two are wandering around the map at a snails pace. You can run? The killer is chasing someone else.
However this also comes back down to the game not showing skill levels and/or how skill levels are even calculated. Which again is a deliberate decision. The game is exactly the way BHVR wants it much like an artist who can't stand anyone messing with their 'grand masterpiece' even if it's full of flaws. There's so many ways to improve solo queue and the game as a whole starting with splitting competitive and casual and having different rules for both but nah let's just ignore those dumb critics who are in our artwork and sit and admire our 'masterpiece'.
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Really don't like this map on either side. Feels nonsense. There's buggy pallets too where it doesn't even block passage at all, there is a gap on one side of it. I mean I know there's unsafe pallets but come on.
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Yeah I reacted to this alright. The reason I didn't talk about it is because it's pointless to do so. It'll fall under the same dumb us vs. them nonsense that plagues most things in this forum (and everywhere else for that matter) until people realize 'oh yeah maybe this is nonsense'.
Just like Dead Hard, just like Nurse, just like made for this, just like Blight's old add ons. Doesn't matter which side has the broken mechanics or how broken it is, someone will defend it mindlessly without thinking of the consequences. So why bother?
Sabotaging was already very strong in SWF. Now? It's just silly. It's one of the worst mechanics in the game because the only counter to it is slugging and if anyone has played against old Sadako condemn you know how much fun prolonged slugging is. You can't even equip perks in hindsight to deal with it, not that this is a healthy alternative anyway but even if it were it still doesn't work. Agitation doesn't matter if you still can't reach a hook and Starstruck doesn't matter if you can't hook anyway.
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I think she's still problematic and has way too much going on in what she can do and the effects she applies. She's also not intuitive in how you deal with her mechanics. Having said that on a personal level she's not among my top 5 most disliked killers. She's certainly not overpowered or anything but when players don't understand what's going on, they don't like it.
However the biggest reason people dislike her is because it's 'trendy' to do so. This isn't helped by how unintuitive it is how her stuff works now but it's mostly because it's popular. A lot of people still think she can insta down, that she can still three gen with her drones and unaware that standing still or crouching when the search beam comes lets you completely evade it.
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@Huge_Bush said:
3-gens were only in 10% of matches? I thought it was a lot more with all the complaining it had.
Keep the criteria in mind. 400 seconds between the 4th gen popping and the end of the match. 400 seconds is 6 and a half minutes. Also in some cases the killer may have a 4 gen which isn't counted in the stats. It also doesn't count the amount of times the survivors failed to break the three gen and died before that by being too aggressive which was and is a scenario that's pretty common.
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@CountOfTheFog said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3721676#Comment_3721676
Oh they do that too. One of my SoloQ builds is:
- Kindred
- Bond
- Open-handed
- Prove Thyself
Bond + Open-Handed will horrify you. They're not just hiding, they're in the basement pointing at each other, spam crouching, and slowly getting in and out of lockers.
Kindred and Bond are the two perks that really enforce that sometimes ignorance is bliss. I run this build sometimes with deja vu instead of prove and yeah… some things are better left unseen.
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My best build was
Strength in Shadows, Botany Knowledge, Deja Vu, Fogwise
Pretty decent.
My worst build was
No Mither, Object of Obsession, Self Preservation, Blood Rush
Two actively harmful perks with minimal upside (if you don't build around them), one perk that is already nearly useless and then gets made even more useless by no mither and blood rush literally does nothing without an exhaustion perk never mind having it with No Mither. Playing this mode has really shown me how many god awful survivor perks there are and perks that are dependent on other perks. I mean I knew that of course but even the worst killer perks aren't actively harmful where you wish you had no perk instead, except for maybe Predator.
Played a few killer games but the builds were mostly alright nothing too extreme on either side.
Best may have been
Plaything, Haunted Ground, Coup De Grace and Cruel Limits
Had Haunted Ground on somebody near shack, gen completes, they can't vault and would have made pallet if it wasn't for Coup De Grace.
Can't think of any build that was particularly awful but even the worst build I can think of would be nothing to how much a bad survivor build can cripple you.
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Freddy without a doubt. Trapper and Myers have addons that make them significantly stronger. Myers are self explanatory but Trapper has some really good ones like carrying all traps at the start, traps automatically set themselves and survivors can't escape traps on their own without downing themselves. Even with these options they are so so but they at least still have them. Both (and Ghostface for that matter) also have maps where they are a lot better. Some maps are complete duds for them but these three at least have some chances if things go their way.
Freddy has nothing and he doesn't even have maps where he can excel either like Trapper can on certain maps where he can cover traps and/or has lots of good spots, or Ghostface and Myers on tight indoor maps. His addons are bad, his base kit is horrible. The best addon he's got is 'you start in the dream world and skill checks don't nullify your power'. Really now? Some killers have better things then that as base kit options.
He's an M1 killer with a mediocre teleport and a power that doesn't even work if they are outside dream world and even if they are in it, both fake pallets and snares are pretty mediocre. Many killers have a better power that isn't dependent on dream world. Okay you get teleports too but it's telegraphed and has a lengthy cooldown if you complete it. Faking it out has questionable value and like many bad killers he's significantly worse against coordination.
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@VibranToucan said:
Adepts
Which should be changed to work for as long as nobody escapes via the gate. Some challenges even have this as a requirement as a opposed to 4K because unless you slug it is down to luck but that’s okay. Better having a bit of luck then having prolonged periods of doing nothing.
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Yeah I don’t see at all how it’ll work. Not to mention the immense amount of bugs. Even when the idea was being thrown around I always thought it’s going to be one of those things that is like ‘careful what you wish for’. The novelty will wear off fast one way or another.
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I've said it a number of times but I believe hook suiciding should be removed but players can disconnect freely without penalty while being slugged, carried or on hook. This way a bot takes over and the game isn't ruined for those that remain. It should be a special option which only enables under those conditions.
I don't know why BHVR doesn't do this. It's like they want to torture the remaining players rather then the person who screwed over their team. The person who wants out gets out with a few bloodpoints and gets to go next like they want to. Everyone else is remaining except maybe the killer is screwed. It should be the other way around.
The 4% chance is silly and shouldn't be in the game anyway whether it's impactful or not. Obviously deliverance and wicked are fine and luck perks and offerings need a total rework as already stated.
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There really needs to be icons on the survivors hud for when a perk comes into play. In addition to the perks being common knowledge at the start of the game. Almo’s (or whoever it was) dumbass design idea of clueless survivors who have no information on each other stumbling around needs to go.
For example no I’m not hiding in a locker for no reason to be useless, I’m using built to last/inner strength, please stop spamming opening my locker as if ‘why are you being useless’ which incidentally makes them useless.
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@LeFennecFox said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3682006#Comment_3682006
Having a bot on your team is gg just force them to eat the penalty and not play the game. If you're going to baby rage quit you can eat the penalty and go play a different game for a while.
Bots actually try to win and honestly for 70% of the players base they play better. I personally like when someone leaves and a bot replaces them because I know exactly what to expect, which is not true of many players who I have no idea what they are doing. They aren’t doing tome challenges and yes they cheat in a variety of ways but a decent killer can exploit their flaws pretty easy.
For me it’d take a lot to get me to rage quit. I’ve never done it. I want my bloodpoints. However there are times I admit I would under those conditions.
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Yeah while some of these are iffy and I really hate iffy challenges for survivor because you potentially ruin the game for three others these ones are mild for killer. Sloppy butcher for effects, the aura reading one might be tricky without certain killers or perks, like using stuff only available to the starting killers and generic perks I think you’ve only got A Nurse’s calling and Lightborn realistically since territorial imperative is not reasonable but that still should be sufficient.
For survivor not looking forward to ‘Avoid three attacks from the killer in one trial’ that’s near impossible unless you get a baby killer or they let you do it. I really wish for challenges you were able to do the challenge or opt for random perks. Either escape on survivor or 3k on killer with no one escaping through gates while using random perks. This could overwrite any challenge you can theoretically do. This means if it requires a perk, killer or survivor you can’t do it unless you have that perk, survivor or killer.
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Really wish they would remove hook suiciding outside of guaranteed escapes. Just allow people to disconnect without penalty while on hook or being slugged. Bot replaces them game is less ruined.
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They 100% cheat. Very easy to tell as Scratched Mirror Myers or other aura reading abilities. They do know where you are through undetectable but they simulate some level of slower reaction. They won’t run as quickly as they would if you had terror radius. They also know where projectiles or certain other things they shouldn’t know where they are heading before they can know this. Really noticeable as Trickster and can be used against them in this case since you can herd them into an m1 due to them treating the knives with higher value then the killer themselves.
If they were players you could easily report them for cheating which I feel is ironic. Having said that though bots have exploitable weakness and ultimately aren’t that good. They value vaults extremely highly and jump too soon using their wall hacks so you can get the entity to block a vault very quickly and get an easy hit.
Still as a survivor I’d prefer them to most solo queue team mates and really wish sometimes I could play games with a bot killer and bot survivors just for a break outside of the tutorial.
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It's stuff like this that's still in the game why I continually call DBD a toxic arms race. Both sides play toxic to counteract the other sides toxic stuff and some people are just too petty to be the better person. While it's nice to hope that people should be better, BHVR as the moderator and group that enforces the rules SHOULD be on top of this.
This achievement is awful and simply moring all 4 survivors REGARDLESS of method should suffice (mori offering, devour hope should count) but neither player should be banned for it because of it because both are playing the game by the rules BHVR themselves have created.
It's situations like this that are harsh reminders how blissfully unaware BHVR are of how toxic their game can get within the normal circumstances of playing it and they need to play it in public lobbies more and actually SHOW us doing it even if they are anonymous while playing. Even if they cherry picked footage, they would still see the bad enough to realise something has to give.
Tomestone in general as well as this achievement needs to go and Myers need to be reworked a bit as a killer so that his power level isn't drastically changed based on whether or not he has Tomestone and/or infinite tier 3.
Further whether someone got banned for this or stuff in chat is also besides the point and what should come as a result of this debacle. I can only hope lessons are learned by the right people.
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@ImWinston said:
THANK YOU for immediately understanding "invocation: weaving spiders" is a horrible perk.
And I say THANK YOU to all players who work for “sable adept” without trying to use this perk.
I was afraid of this perk (also due to sable's popularity in the community), but everyone understood that it is better not to use it.
Yeah I've had 5 games with people using this including 2 who ran had 2 people running no mither with it and defending up and down it was broken OP with brand new part. Not understanding that 120 or 60x2 (which is still 120 which these people couldnt figure out) is a lot less then 9x7 generators or the more realistic 9x5 generators. On top of that it makes you broken, so they ran no mither to 'counteract' that drawback... by adding another drawback and wasting two perk slots. On top of that BOTH OF THEM ran no mither despite the fact only the person starting the invocation gets broken so only one of them needed to run it according to their broken logic. You really can't help some people.
They got so abusive too... ugh. It's put me off solo queue for a long time. I may try again soon I guess, but... yeah...
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I'd let them have their fun and free unhook but I don't play to win. I mean while I wouldn't you could even react to them jumping off hook and get into a favourable position for your next chase on the injured survivor coincidentally in the basement, basement is still basement. Even if they can see you coming with Wicked some basements are damn hard to get out of.
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I think there needs to be more of them. Even more so now that newer players do not get Nancy, Steve or Demo perks anymore.
Hell if I had my way I'd take 1 perk from every killer and survivor and then add them to the generic pool then make it so new survivors/killers release with 2 perks. Let's face it most are junk anyway. Beginners start with so few resources and the game goes out of its way in so many ways to punish newer players.
However for buffs and nerfs? The list is too many to mention for buffs. This is not happening, Slippery Meat, Small Game (doesnt really help that much for newer players trying to find totems), plunders (chests in general need reworks I have ideas but too long for here).
Aside Shattered Hope most of the killer ones at least have a small niche. Not to say they couldn't be buffed but yeah. Even the likes of Insidious and others have their uses.
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@Blueberry said:
Undone needs massive buffs to be remotely good. You could literally double it and it still looks awful.
It could give less tokens on good skill checks (not greats) with numbers adjusted accordingly. There is precedent for perks working on good skill checks (Gearhead, Call of Brine).
Problem there is though that you'd know when someone is on a generator or healing which could be too strong but then perks like Pop, Corrupt, Deadlock and Pain Res exist so I dunno. Perk is absolutely useless, even on Doctor with a skill check build. There's much better options even in that niche scenario.
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Yeah the thing that gets me is how many games one way or the other are decided. Whether I'm with a bunch of survivors who don't know what they are doing at all, or whether the killer is significantly above the skill level of everybody else. Of course it works the other way too, when the killer is very obviously very new or just not on my skill level. Not saying that to boost, I think I'm mediocre at best but there are definitely killers i have 'dunked' on without actually trying to.
It's very rare I get a game that I honestly feel could go either way and that's not just due to the snowbally nature of the game either. If you get a bunch of people using weaving spiders with a cracked killer you know that match is almost certainly lost. Whereas if you get a killer who overuses their power, swings way too soon and is easy to run loops around... yeah.
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@Xyphus said:
They just thought, after many players complained about Borgo, they can prove it could get worse
Yeah it's 'alright' outside of it but the Borgo is an absolute nightmare with this event. I really dislike when artistic people have their say without thought about the practicality of what they are proposing.
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3680565#Comment_3680565
Tis the BHVR way. Also, while I agree this playstyle sucks, regardless of what side you're on.
That being said....
Even if the first person loses only 1 MMR and the other person only gains 1 MMR, it's still punishing people for playing well and rewarding people for playing badly if they want to 'game' the system.
Granted these are two extreme examples but there are many lesser examples and it explains a great deal why 'stealth' players are rated a lot more highly then they should be, whereas players who are competent/good in chase are still seemingly everywhere in the rating system.
I want to just point out, this playstyle is in the same boat as tunneling. Artificially inflating ones MMR. Didn't win by skill, but by dirty tactics. I'm actually having a good chuckle to this thought lol.
Sort of. Tunnelling is hated so much because it outright takes one person out of the game and makes what little time they have in the game utterly miserable. The other thing about it is that unlike stealthing tunnelling is the most optimal way to win the game for killers. Mathematically reducing the number of opponents you are facing increases chances of victory. The best killers do it as much as terrible ones. Whereas the best survivors won't ever excessively stealth because it's obviously inefficient.
Also ignorance is bliss. You are usually not aware that one team mate is stealthing until later, whereas when you are getting tunneled you KNOW. Ironically these two things can happen together for extra frustration. You are getting tunneled and one of your team mates is stealthing which also lowers the chance of them getting tunneled too :D.
Still don't get me started on tunnelling... or Nurse... or excessive slugging or... many other things that should have been addressed several years ago that have had several good ideas on how to counteract them but none have been listened to.
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@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3680542#Comment_3680542
This isn't fully true. They added in MMR adjustments that give you MMR for each survivor on the team that escapes.
Team Based Ratings
With escapes being the win condition for Survivors, dying heroically to save your team can feel a little anti-climactic. We’re introducing Team Based Ratings to remedy this. Your rating will adjust based on not only your own performance, but the team’s performance as well. Sacrificing yourself to save the team won’t be nearly as punishing.
It still doesn't change the fact that somebody who runs the killer for 5 gens and gets a 3 man out is still 'punished'. Whereas the person who hid all game running left behind, wake up and sole survivor specifically to snipe exit gates after letting everyone die will increase in MMR.
'Sacrificing yourself to save the team won't be as punishing' but it is still PUNISHING. Whereas escaping is rewarded no matter how little or how much you contributed.
Even if the first person loses only 1 MMR and the other person only gains 1 MMR, it's still punishing people for playing well and rewarding people for playing badly if they want to 'game' the system.
Granted these are two extreme examples but there are many lesser examples and it explains a great deal why 'stealth' players are rated a lot more highly then they should be, whereas players who are competent/good in chase are still seemingly everywhere in the rating system.
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@CLHL said:
Well, stealing blood drop is already impossible unless the killer is totally ignoring the event. You have to take the very first chase to have a chance.
Yup, I'm ignoring this one completely. It's so obvious sometimes they don't think out the consequences of their actions. It's all just 'yeah that sounds cool do it' 'yup that sounds fine'. It's how we get really asinine tomes that basically read 'throw the game'. One thing I used to be grateful for is that the events dialed back on this a bit and made them things that will occur in normal game play. NOT THIS TIME!
Are we going to get stun the killer 4 times in a single trial, cleanse 10 totems or something equally game throwing that ruins the game for all the other survivors in that trial too?
As for the 'take blood and let the killer hit you then stun them to get it done' I tried this. Bugs said no. Still that is a little more game throwing then I like and there's a few killers that outright get around that.
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What I have been running until Weaving Spiders put me off solo queue for... a significantly long time, especially a bunch of people who swore up and down it was extremely good and couldn't do basic math that 60 seconds with 2 people doing the circle of stupid is still 120 seconds @_@. Never mind the whole fact that 9x7 never mind 9x5 is a lot less then 120. UGH.
Anyway rant over.
My build was Windows/Lithe/Inner Strength/Saboteur with a map that helps me find totems. I used to run Kindred over Lithe but Kindred is seriously depressing sometimes. Especially with stupidity circle.
Sabo is purely for blood points. Yell at me if you want for that but sometimes it does draw the killers attention and the amount of ways that the tome makes you throw is nothing compared to saboing every so often if you see something along the way.
My own escape rate is about 40% which is the average.
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If anything it makes me worry that they'll go for anniversary 'No cakes have fun grinding, should have done more during the blood moon'.
I do honestly believe this is an innocent mistake. A mistake that absolutely would not have happened if group of people who actually played the game in public servers for a meaningful amount of time were allowed to test it but a mistake nonetheless.
Still every time something like this which reeks of complete ignorance happens, I always think they are going to use that a stepping stone to do things that are even more ignorant.
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Aesthetically its good unless you are on Borgo. It LITERALLY hurts my eyes and I am not usually susceptible to such things . Red hooks, red generators, red things here, red things there. Oh those little red things called scratch marks you are supposed to track those. Ugh.
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Yeah this is really bad. Even on killer the difference between BP gains is minimal because I have puddings and terrormisus on most characters I actively play.
Then on top of that, you actually have to have the offerings for it which spends the BP you make so even on killer I am running at a loss compared to normal. Absolutely dog poo tier event. Worse then no event at all from my angle.
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Some people only feel joy in this game when bringing misery to others. It doesn't help that such misery in many forms on both sides has been enabled for a long time now. There's a lot of people who play this game that subscribe to 'As long as I'm happy nothing else matters everyone else be damned'.
Ezi killer? Yeah it is when I basically play such a weak character/perks that I'm basically letting you win. You really going to mock that? This game is sided towards whichever side tries to break the game more then the other.
I just don't care anymore and 8 hook every game before killing and open gates after 5 gens regardless of how many hook states i have. It's painfully obvious to all but the most stupid of people you are letting them leave because I don't run blood warden. There is no strategic reason I should open the gates and yet I do. No slowdowns aside from kick activated info perks like Surveillance. I think I'm at a level where things are mostly good. You get a few jerks but it's less common then people who are grateful for someone actually thinking about their enjoyment.
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3678936#Comment_3678936
As for your direct question on Lightborn. It is a necessary evil. I dislike the perks existence because it doesn't interact well with inexperienced players who don't know how flashlights work. I also find it uninteractive because flashlights are 100% useless rather then being reduced in effectiveness or something similar. For example, it could still blind a killer but would not cause them to drop their survivor. I still wouldn't like it, but at least blinding at pallets would still be a valid use.
I agree with this. But I'd like to point out how little Lightborn's power is being shown in your example. You are only speaking of flashlights being insignificant. Flashbangs, Blastmine, and any other way of blinding you is also gone. I find it to be one of the most oppressive perks to bring against survivors (not personally, I dont use FL's). But I do like that fact, as I want the killer to feel indomitable.
However without Lightborn (and Franklins demise another perk I dislike) survivors doing unbeatable flashlight strategies would rise up in usage massively and SWF escape rates would skyrocket. On top of that, slug builds for killers would also skyrocket. I don't see a good outcome to this.
Eh, maybe. It will still only happen as much as it would otherwise imo. And only at upper echelons of MMR. The majority of players don't run into bully squads and such, as they are almost non-existent. Im not saying you're wrong in any capacity, I just don't think it would happen like that at all. I think the game might be more fun.
Yeah I actually retyped this post a lot because I've been accused of being too long winded. Which drives me nuts because people then say 'well what about this'. It's even worse when the what about this is ACTUALLY in the post and people don't read. People want simple solutions and answers to incredibly complex problems... ugh...
So in previous versions I actually did mention blinds as a whole which included flashbang and blast mine. Blast mine still stuns so most of it's value is still there. The counter argument though is that if none of the things lightborn counters are there it's dead weight. Which is worse for killer then survivor because survivors collectively get 16 perks. Killers only get 4.
I generally dislike the whole relationship flashlights and lightborn have.