Slowpeach
Slowpeach
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@BlightedDolphin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3679062#Comment_3679062
Yeah that’s a really good point. She’s been nerfed a lot of times but none of them really hit the reason why she is so powerful.
It feels like they don’t really know what to do with her. All of her changes are pretty much just what content creators kept claiming was her biggest issue. First she needed some cool down, then it was just her range add ons, then her combining with Starstruck. Now that everything else has been touched I hope it’s time they can finally find what her core problem is.
There is no choice. She must be utterly destroyed. The only way I can see her remotely keeping the ability to blink is that if she has to earn it in a similar way to Oni where she can do it once certain conditions are met, then she can't again.
Even this would probably be too strong unless you made the 'earn it' condition ridiculous which would present it's own problems. Oni despite this limitation is still one of the better killers and he still has to play DBD while in his power. Nurse does not. She is playing a single player game called Nurse where everyone else is basically an NPC who lives or dies based on whether the single player makes a mistake with almost no meaningful input on their part.
I think it doesn't matter what you do with it honestly. Blinking through walls, floors and obstacles is probably impossible to balance. However regardless of this difficulty they must do something. Doing nothing to her base kit which is 100% the problem is going to assure she's the number one killer in competent hands which is the only metric that should matter. Even without perks and addons she will still be top 5 easy. Nerfing her addons or whatever does next to nothing to her.
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@TieBreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3679007#Comment_3679007
Nurse has had her kneecaps broken by BHVR several times. But she floats, so it never impacts her much.
Then they need to suffocate her and/or break her blinking arm so she can't blink anymore or needs to do something to earn the right to. No more baby nerfs. Enough is enough. Even perkless and without addons she's significantly stronger then most killers.
I don't know what they do or whether she needs her entire identity destroyed. Regardless I am tired of killer perks being balanced around this broken piece of horrible game design as well as groaning inwardly on survivor whenever she appears. She basically turns the game into a single player farce where you can only lose if you make enough mistakes.
@Sava18 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3679007#Comment_3679007
Blight went from a potential 400% increase in power level from add-ons to a max of 150% generously. The nerfs to his add-ons were immense.
*before anyone refers to the thread* I am not defending playing comp on the strongest killers with the strongest loadouts as the strongest players, that's a really mean combo. I am just explaining changes to a killer I know far more about than maybe a few on this forum. I've had too many people argue the nerfs weren't nerfs and then just restate their opinion without backup in their follow up comment.
Fair but he's still comfortably second best killer and probably still too strong. I suppose I can understand the relatively conservative nerf. Blight doesn't annoy me anywhere near as much as Nurse does. Hell he doesn't even hit my top 10 most disliked killers as he isn't broken at the fundamental design level. He at least can't basically disregard pallets completely. Some killers can negate them but not outright ignore them like Nurse can.
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To be fair the survivor streak was done with comp restrictions which massively weakens survivor capabilities. To my knowledge this means only one of each item, the whole team can only use the same perk once, certain perk combinations addons and map offerings are banned. Someone can get the exact details if they like but the point is they were rules and restrictions placed upon them.
The Nurse and Blight streaks had no such rules upon them. Still though, it does prove that those killers are basically cheating within the rules. Such streaks just should not be possible in any game. Most games should be designed in such a way that your luck should run out and things should eventually work against you. Or that your chances of making a game losing error is higher.
It absolutely boggles my mind how these two have been so dominant since I started playing and have gotten only baby nerfs and some could argue those weren't even nerfs at all. Also just because two killers that can cheat within the rules can create these streaks does not mean the game is killer sided. It's been said before but the game is sided usually to whichever side is willing to optimize the broken state of this game more. Map offerings alone are hard evidence of that.
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3678707#Comment_3678707
I like the disengagement of this 'flow' you mentioned. The trials aren't a blueprint to me. They're just part of the game. You're speaking of these niche scenarios that happen now and then like they're something every game brings in truckloads.
And why you use words like "ruin the flow of it and laugh at the stupid killer..." What? I highly doubt this happens as often as I'm assuming you think it does. And back to this 'flow', if it's something the killer wishes to follow, you bet your butt I'm gonna disrupt the 'flow' lol. :P
You're in public lobbies, not running in a tournament. This scenario is so uncommon from my experience. Regardless, Lightborn has a high value for no activation. It just 'is.' At least Ultimate weapons has you interact with a whole locker to activate.
I would like you opinion on this viewpoint: These trials are killers trying to murder survivors. Killer blinds are one of two whole ways we can defend ourselves. Do you feel Lightborn is Fine, over or undertuned? Balanced? Is there a survivor equivalent? Thank you! :)
Niche scenario or no it doesn't matter. The fact there is no good counterplay to this aside from slugging should be enough of a reason for cause of concern. The only reason it isn't common is because lightborn exists to automatically deny it and more importantly it requires the coordination of two preferably three people to do it.
I honestly think getting into the complexities of why this is bad is a waste of time and results in way too much text.
I'll just make a simple comparison to what flashlights played optimally are like from the survivor side. 3 gen skull merchant as she used to be. Survivors cannot progress the game, but neither can the killer. It's a complete stalemate. Granted not as bad because in the 3 survivors trying to stop the killer making progress will still eventually end the game because 1 person will finish all the gens but it is very similar and equally frustrating to be on the receiving end of, if not worse for the killer because victory is absolutely impossible unless the survivors really screw up. Chances are survivors will choose the map too to make this even stronger. 3 gen merchant could be broken too I suppose but it was horrible to go up against.
As for your direct question on Lightborn. It is a necessary evil. I dislike the perks existence because it doesn't interact well with inexperienced players who don't know how flashlights work. I also find it uninteractive because flashlights are 100% useless rather then being reduced in effectiveness or something similar. For example, it could still blind a killer but would not cause them to drop their survivor. I still wouldn't like it, but at least blinding at pallets would still be a valid use.
However without Lightborn (and Franklins demise another perk I dislike) survivors doing unbeatable flashlight strategies would rise up in usage massively and SWF escape rates would skyrocket. On top of that, slug builds for killers would also skyrocket. I don't see a good outcome to this.
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Issues on both sides don’t justify making the game not fun for either. The devs are the ones to blame and if you played both sides you’d know that.
Survivor side: Getting tunnelled sucks. I don’t get to play the game beyond the first hook.
Killer side: If I don’t strategically lower the number of enemies I’m facing, I’m going to get overwhelmed.
The simplest solution is to make sacrifices impossible until a certain number of global hook states have been met and no longer notifying the killer when a survivor is removed off hook. In exchange the game must take longer. Increasing gen times again or even the amount of them would do this but I think that’s very boring. I would make totems do something else which makes the game significantly more dangerous for survivors if ignored. Chests could do something else too aside house items. However to get into any such ideas would make the post incredibly long.
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Yup. Even worse is the people who try to justify it’s good because the drawback can be mitigated by running no mither. Oh good now you’ve wasted TWO perk slots to get 63 seconds worth of progress removed at the cost for 120 seconds. Not to mention you don’t need to do all 7 generators, you only need to do 5 so really it’s 45 seconds of progress for 120 seconds wasted. Had two people flame me because they couldn’t figure out this extremely basic pre 10 year old level of math. You really can’t cure or argue with stupid.
I think people honestly just like how cool it looks and to be fair it kinda does. Still though if you can’t figure out that 120 seconds is a lot more then 45 seconds which even if halved by two people running the perk it’s still 120 seconds you are straight up stupid. Hence I dub the perk stupidity circle. Solo queue has just got a lot worse because of this perk.
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3678034#Comment_3678034
It's done deliberately to lower the chances of bringing lightborn or whatever perk the killer would bring otherwise.
Makes sense. Lightborn is quite the BS perk in general, but I get why its looked down upon by killers.
Still, I think its weak to say its a good reason to tunnel someone out. Its just not justified. I often level a lowbie survivor from my maxed BP so I can earn some, then get back on my current main of the day. Should I be tunneled for this?
Counterpoint on lightborn. Flashlights are also bs when played to the max. Like many things in this game both flashlights and lightborn are part of the toxic arms race.
If you don’t have lightborn and a survivor deliberately goes down in the open with no walls to face, you literally cannot pick them up or make progress outside of slugging which as we know is awful to go against. Perks like background player have only made this easier. Yes one or two players are wasting time waiting for the pick up and the killer can try and fake it and hit them too, but again you get a lot of time especially with background player to make the save. Further only one person needs to be doing gens to progress the game for survivors and you only really need one person to make a guaranteed save. Having two is simply safety.
Having lightborn in this scenario prevents this nonsense and ultimately makes the game run more smoothly for those not looking to ruin the flow of it and laugh at the stupid killer who can’t make progress. However there are innocent uses to flashlights too and some quests outright require you to blind the killer to progress them which can’t be done if the killer has light born. Also there is a skill in picking someone up and evading the light but it’s very easy to go down in a spot that makes this impossible.
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@Ohyakno said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3677874#Comment_3677874
I gotta ask: why did you write this gigantic post when you could have just said "remove the DC penalty"? That's what you're getting at. All this other stuff is just fluff. So why? It's just weird to me.
Because people go: What about this. What about that. The thought process is important and covering bases for why the idea is feasible and also understanding why and how other people think and how I came to this conclusion. I could go even further into covering more bases and I guess being really weird to people is sadly my curse. Really though it seems I can’t win either way.
It’s also not as simple as remove the DC penalty because there’s conditions specifically so people can’t just DC when they hear the Nurse scream. Besides BHVR have already said they aren’t removing it, so maybe they might remove it if certain conditions are met. Scott did a whole more then 5 minute video on this topic explaining the same thing irc. Still no.
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I liked this one too. I also liked Yoichi's one of Sadako Rising though I'm a sucker for rain :D.
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@glitchboi said:
If a Luck of the Draw (random perks only) gamemode were to ever happen, the perks being Ultra Rare at tier 4 with buffs to all of them would be pretty cool and would distinguish it from main DBD as perks will play out differently.
Yeah I could justify tier 4's for this but it would be so buggy because you'd have a bunch of untested perks having tier 4 variants.
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Excessive killer bullying where they deliberately make pick ups and/or hooks impossible. Only way I can answer it is slugging everyone or in hindsight using lightborn which I don't like doing because I don't like preventing people who are innocently doing blind quests. Slugging everyone is not fun (okay shouldn't be fun) for anyone and can catch innocent victims. Best answer is to not give them what they want and do nothing. I stop playing and do something else and then they leave.
Gen rush me if you want but don't come into the game with the goal to point and laugh at the dumb killer who you run rings around. I don't play to win and don't equip perks to do so. I try and make the game more fun for everyone involved. Game would be 2% of the games content if played optimally all the time.
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@JPLongstreet said:
I'm thinking the bloodweb is already too bloated.
This. There is so much pointless crap on there that is just there for the sake of being there because they don't know how to make meaningful progression.
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@EQWashu said:
Stepping in with a reminder to keep the discussion civil, please. Also, a reminder that the admission or encouragement of Unsportsmanlike Conduct, such as DCing, is not permitted on the Forum. Lastly, changing something last-second in a lobby (character, item, etc) is not unsportsmanlike conduct, or inherently done to cause upset. Thank you.
I dunno. While I think in some cases things are overblown a group of SWF swapping at the last second to 4 flashlights is definitely done to cause upset. I've only seen it done to me once (but I don't play to win) but saying that swapping at the last second is not done to cause upset is very naive at best. I don't take issue with it personally, but it is a little bit of a douche move and can be done on purpose to be a jerk.
It's done deliberately to lower the chances of bringing lightborn or whatever perk the killer would bring otherwise.
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@Yharwick said:
Everyone read the OP VERY CAREFULLY before commenting.
I'm gonna go shower now after reading that.
Some people only read topic titles and the gist of the message. Any subtly or nuance is often lost. This can be used for amusement but is often frustrating for those who want to convey a complicated point.
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@menacing_goose said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3677996#Comment_3677996
Buddy end of the day everyone is playing to win if a killer has little hooks with 2 gens left he’ll have to tunnel for a chance at a win or draw. I’m not gonna say anything about late game tunneling out of salt but early game is an issue
There is a difference between playing to win and playing to win at all costs. Whatever though. Bottom line is, tunnelling no matter how many gens are left is optimal. Which is misery to go against. Something needs to give. But won't.
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Really it's not the killer that's obnoxious unless it's Nurse in which case you either roll the baby Nurse who can't do anything or get utterly dominated by the broken killer who tunnels everyone off hook which I honestly don't find either fun at all. It's the person playing them.
To be fair though Wraith does attract their fair share of terrible people who want validation through the "MERCILESS KILLER' screen as though they can't find any other purpose in life. The reason is that he is incredibly easy to play and tunnel with. He can repeat an incredibly basic cycle over and over and over which makes the game boring for everyone against them whether they win or lose because better players know how to deal with that nonsense which then leads to a bunch of very overrated Wraith players who relied on one trick which when mitigated, causes all their other short comings to be apparent.
On the other hand Wraith can run a really funny set of addons and perks which really make him silly and fun to play. Like having the terror radius be on while cloaked and briefly off while cloaked and running perks to match. He can kick and break things really fast. The whole chase and how far he can go when coming out of stealth can be fun to play around too.
Sadly though a significant number of Wraiths just wait near a hook, out of anti camp while invisible, wait for the stupid dumb 'tunnel me now' notification that all killers get whenever someone is unhooked, listen for the moans of pain and get their easy down and repeat. NoED if things go wrong. Gain inflated rating, repeat until grossly overrated.
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@menacing_goose said:
If there’s not gonna be any long term solution to tunneling early in a match any time soon can there be either more anti tunnel perks added or small or slight buffs to the current anti tunnel perks in the game. Before I get a horde of angry killers yelling at me yes I understand that there will be times in a match where your hand in a match will be forced and you’ll need to tunnel someone out for pressure and yes more survivors need to understand this as well so whether survivors like it or not there will be matches where them or someone on their team will end up being tunneled out for pressure. The main issue I’m seeing is early game tunneling it’s been so common lately and simply put it’s no fun when either you’re tunneled out and killed or it happens to one of your teammates super early into the match because of being the “weak link”
Nobody is ever FORCED to tunnel. Nobody. You can gasp LOSE! OH NO! THE WORLD IS ENDING! ME LOSE A GAME AND TRY TO HAVE FUN IN WAYS OTHER THEN THE GAME TELLING ME I WIN!?! NO NO NO.
The game is just not built to be played competitively, it's far too imbalanced yet so many people on both sides try to do so. In competitive rule sets obviously it works and works well but public DBD matches are so far removed from that. Survivors have massive advantages and in competitive where they are significantly weaker tunnelling is still the dominant strategy.
Of course it's inevitable that with face camping being nerfed (don't tell anyone but you can totally still do it, it's just slightly less efficient) that more players would resort to tunnelling.
There's a lot of ways tunnelling could be dealt with and the game made more fun for everyone as a whole. Well everyone who actually wants to play an engaging contest and not just be told by an artificial source 'you win'. However this issue has been around for a long long long time and I don't see a fix coming in soon despite seeing loads of potential solutions.
I'm not going to go into them here, it's a waste of time. I've gone down this road too many times to count.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3677658#Comment_3677658
Getting good would imply there is something you can do about this in certain situations, most of the time people run in while you are in weapon wipe animation and just heal up...
Git gud is the usual way of them saying. 'This is totally overpowered and obnoxious but I like abusing it so hahaha'. Everytime someone says that, that's how I read it. Unless it's pretty obviously a case of git gud.
As for tunneling and slugging being just as toxic, well that sums up this games problems in a nut shell. It's a toxic arms race and both sides finger pointing at the other over toxic practices and then doing their own toxic practices in response saying they have to because xyz, which isn't entirely wrong. BHVR absolutely need to do more to stop it but they won't or their response will be baby nerfs that don't fix the problem.
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Honestly I have tomes related to her which I want to do cus she's really not that obnoxious anymore but... I'm scared to. Even though I 8 hook and let everyone go (for now, might move to 8 hook then kill if it gets too easy), I don't want people to think I'm a horrible Skull merchant who is going to play this game deliberately to cause misery.
So if I were to play SM. Two reasons.
1. Daily. I can avoid this though, and do so for Nurse, Clown and Artist as well. Killers I personally despise facing. Well Clown is okay by me but a lot of people dislike him for valid reasons.
2. Tome challenge. Honestly needs to be reworked. Should be able to change any challenge to random perks with escape or 3 k for killer and/or complete 3 games under these conditions. Or something generic and useful like do gens/hooks. Obviously for some they want to try entice people to buy the killer needed, so for those ones you still need to have that killer enabled but you don't have to use them.
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Ive come across this a lot. 5 games total where it was a real issue. My worse group was two people who swore up and down it was actually good with no mither then flamed and abused me when I started asking them to do basic math to prove the perk wasn't good. 'It's 60 seconds with two people', yeah which gives you 120 gen charges compared to 63 if you just did gens you morons.
Sure waste 2 perks and be broken and a liability in so many ways. I'd rather you run blank spots in those perks. Not to mention no mither outright basically tells the killer what you are trying to do, especially if you are playing as Sable.
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@xEa said:
The way survivors get ride off the weakening effect is by looking at the killer. Great! BHVR must hate their beginner to average playerbase who are not always looking behind during chase. What a questionable design desicion.
Sorry that i can not give good advises at this point since i also dont have many hours with/against this killer. How i won my rounds against Unknown is by destroying as many Hux as possible. How i lost my rounds is people being unpredictable with their movement and actually not running to close to walls. Walls are dangerous, thats for sure.
This so much. Scott suggested making the power work in reverse (decays while not looking at unknown, does not decay while looking at unknown) but there'd need to be a few changes to this.
The way it stands this is another Trapper or Legion style killer. Extremely effective against beginners. Not so good against good players. I've seen people try looking behind them who don't normally do so... it is REALLY bad. Some people just can't do it. Game should not have killers which are noob stompers ideally.
This game does so much to punish their beginner to average player base and that's before the huge amount of beginners traps the game has. From failing skill checks notifying the killer, to the immense amount of killers and perks, some of which are extremely poorly explained, from just general knowledge of maps and such. For example, if you asked in a survey how does the Skull Merchant's power work and what it does or doesn't do and how you can deal with drones, you would get A LOT of wrong answers.
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I agree with limiting aura reading and screaming while invocating though I seriously think it's going to be very hard to balance this perk type. On the upside, might make Territorial Imperative finally see the light of day but I dunno if that's a good thing considering how poorly designed that perk is.
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The easiest solution is to simply prevent it outside of guaranteed hook escapes. You can't force people to play against their will but you should be able to disconnect on hook, while being slugged or carried without penalty. That's why people do it after all, they want to go next without penalty for whatever reason.
I say let them. They can be replaced by a bot who actually wants to win. Most of the time I'm delighted to have a bot on my team because I know exactly what to expect and how best to use their strengths.
Better having a bot survivor with one hook state then having nobody at all. Hook suiciding ruins the game for three other people at least and maybe the killer too if they wanted an actual contest though I'll grant some players on both sides just want their 'I win' screen no matter the cost.
It's not even like they 'feed' certain killers like Myers because they instantly know when they are being stalked. They aren't an ideal solution due to all the cheating they do but they aren't that hard to beat and value vaults way too much in chase.
Luck offerings, Up the Ante and Slippery Meat would need to be changed but those perks are some of the least used anyway and for good reason.
Part of me gets the reluctance. They are concerned that people will disconnect en masse against disliked killers such as Nurse and Skull Merchant. Which is why I put the restrictions in there. Worst they can do is immediately run to the killer and deliberately get downed. Beats outright removing one player from the game. I say again 'YOU CANNOT FORCE PLAYERS TO PLAY AGAINST THEIR WILL'. The issue is that if killers are that disliked enough, the problem lies with the design team. Further some players need to learn that this game is not their personal torture house to torment four other individuals relentlessly.
However I don't see it happening. The BHVR team makes it painfully obvious that they only play within their test groups and not out there in the wilderness and have no idea the cruelty some players (on both sides) enforce on others on a daily basis. Cruelty which would have real life consequences if they actually tried it against a human being they knew face to face. If they did, certain perks, killers, features would have been changed ages ago.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3677594#Comment_3677594
Yeah. I mean, my build is basically from 2017
So is mine. Latest perk released in my build is Lithe.
Yes, I agree it is difficult to create good survivor perks. But surely we can have something better than Weaving Spiders.
I don’t agree. I just think they aren’t creative. Even if they are only beginner friendly that’s still something. Wouldn’t hurt having more generic perks to help beginners too but anyway.
Honestly though I think a large part of the problem is that many perks feel like perk tax. In solo you basically have to run Windows and Kindred and are taking a significant risk if you don’t. An exhaustion perk is considered mandatory by some to extend chases. So solo people really have one perk slot to spend.
A while back I created a few for survivor versions of killers. I don’t remember them all now and I can’t retrieve them from here but here is what I remember.
Joey had a perk called Niche Expertise which allowed him to mark 1/2/3 objects whether they be pallets, hooks, generators or totems in a colour matching which perk slot it was (green for first, red for second, purple for third, blue for fourth). Not amazing but useful for beginners or communicating without comms. You could for example tell players where basement was without comms. If playing with someone new you could help this way too.
Susie I gave a perk called Silent Achiever. This is something I believe should be a base feature anyway but here we are… Whenever you or someone else is pulled off the hook, there is no loud noise notification. The interface and any perks related to pulling someone off a hook is delayed for 5/10/15 seconds. The purpose of this is anti tunnel. The amount of killers who immediately react to someone being pulled off the hook is ridiculous. Sure it won’t stop proxy camping too much and if they physically see you do it, it’s useless but it has potential. The killer can’t pressure as much if they can’t rely on the interface and a loud notification telling them ‘it’s time to tunnel’.
Rin I don’t remember the exact details but I do remember I basically reversed what her killer perks were. I know the perks are the point here but I don’t remember the design idea. If pressed I’ll pull out my stuff again.
For Philip I tried to create an alternative for windows. Witness to destruction I think I called it. Wasn’t happy with the name. In any case this perk tells the user whenever a pallet is broken, you get a notification when this happens and know where. If the user was in windows range (same perk numbers) they could see the aura of dropped or broken pallets. It has advantages and disadvantages compared to windows but meh.
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@Nebula said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3677463#Comment_3677463
Just did the math
Your odds of successfully not escaping from the hook using slippery meat 6 times a game paired with ante up (a 7% chance to escape) is 1.645 x 10 ^-17 power, aka a literal statistical anomaly.
I’ll even be nice and assume you’re just grossly hyperbolizing, let’s say you ran it 10 games in a row with up the ante and tried 6 times per game to get off the hook.
You have a 0.00134% chance to not get off the hook…
Theres no need to lie about this bro lol
Yeah chances are they did this once and went ‘nope useless combo never again’ after it wasn’t basically no unhook required deliverance. To be fair I did say with luck offerings and multiple people running Ace’s luck perk up the ante as well.
To be even fairer, both perks alone with no luck offering is pretty bad. It’s only a 35% chance you get off the hook and you’ve wasted two perks. You really need friends running up the ante+slippery meat as well for it to work and honestly most teams don’t know how to take advantage of the precious seconds a team gains from not having to unhook someone. Still on topic, Slippery meat still has a theoretical use. No matter how you spin the math weaving spiders is dog poo.
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@arcaneGospel said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3677427#Comment_3677427
No, they do. They definitely do. He's still bad, even if you have good trap placement.
This. Unless in chase you should basically never step in a trap because you can avoid any place that's concealed and never vault windows/pallets. Yet when playing Trapper I get way more people caught in traps then I should though I know I don't neccessarily play against the best players (this is on purpose, game is not designed for serious play outside of comp settings no matter how badly some people want it to be). Sure in times of stress or thinking about other things mistakes are made but the better players get the less this happens.
It's hard to think about how to buff Trapper because like Legion he's a beginner stomper but like Legion in learning how to deal with being injured, it's possible to get better against Trapper.
Honestly if it were up to me I'd keep making progressive changes. By far the number one thing he needs is getting traps from lockers and his cap increased to 3 by default. The cap remains what it is now. Traps are no longer spread across the map. This is the number one thing that makes Trapper awful to play.
Can you imagine how bad Huntress would be if you had to stop and pick up each and every single hatchet? That you started with one hatchet and the others were all over the map and whether you hit or missed you had to pick it up again? She would be absolutely dumpster tier. Trapper is pretty close to this. If someone falls into his trap or disarms it whether they are injured, healthy, close or far, that trap has to be reset short of iri addon.
I would also make the escape time from his trap locked at 5.5-6 seconds. This way players don't get lucky and immediately escape (1.8 seconds, not counting the initial time where the survivor reacts to being trapped) but also don't have to wait for the sixth attempt to get out either (10.8 seconds).
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@Hexling said:
Lets not lie though slippery meat is still the worst perk in the game.
It's not actively harmful and it's not as much of a beginners trap. In SWF with an offering and Ace's luck perk you can pretty much guarantee 100% you get off the hook without needing a rescue. That can be very powerful. Yes that's a lot of ifs but the amount of time it saves by making it so nobody has to rescue you is immense.
Though I think in general 'escape from hook' IS a beginners trap and probably should be removed and players can DC while on hook to be replaced by a bot so they don't ruin the game for anyone else.
In any case Slippery Meat has an extremely small niche. Weaving Spiders is actively harmful and grossly inefficient.
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@GolbezGarlandGabrant said:
Is 1 person quick switching all that bad? I'm a Solo player and I spend that 60+ seconds spending BP and try to quickly switch before I get locked in a survivor I wasn't intending on playing.
Some people take this game way too seriously. I usually switch when 30 seconds remain. Wait 5 if I'm last to ready. Then ready. If someone takes an issue with that they are going to take issue with any number of potential invisible things that break their version of the DBD rulebook.
Some of the rule book is fair enough, the game is just not made for playing competitively unless you have specific rules in place. However some things like this, especially if its not done for obnoxious reasons (friends en masse switching to a flashlight seconds before starting with malicious intent) you just can't win with some people, you are going to make someone mad no matter what.
To be fair if you did quick switch to a flashlight despite them running lightborn, they might just be triggered by some other jerks in a previous game playing stupid games with flashlights, going down in places where it's impossible to pick them up without getting blinded and basically making it impossible to play the game without resorting to slugging everyone.
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I think Strength in Shadows is underrated and potentially dangerous. If the team does generators near the basement first and creates a safe zone similar to old circle of healing you could have a big problem. Killer doesn't really want to go to an area of the map where there are no generators. So unless basement is centered (which can be controlled with offerings) this could be a problem. It's not as bad as old circle of course, it's less reliable and the killer COULD eventually figure it out but there's potential there that might be unhealthy.
Wicked: Also good potential. Remains to be seen if its problematic but basement hooks existing as opposed to making hooks more consistent is a design choice I've always had issues with.
Invocation: Weaving Spiders: The killer perk of killer perks. Even self care can't compete with how useless this thing is and like self care it is a beginners trap. It's made even worse by the fact that it actually looks kinda cool which draws even more beginners into it's beginners trap. I've posted this screenshot elsewhere but this has already happened to me three times.
Think of poor Renato. All alone. Dying... both physically and inside. 😭
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@Akumakaji said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/407993/im-so-sick-of-ultimate-weapon
Its getting nerfed, soon, but just for fun, imagine that it stayed unchanged in the game for literal years and people defended it by claiming "lol, its just a perk in the game, git gud" or "if you outplayed them, but they DH to safety, did you really outplay them? smirk"
I still think that, while UW is strong, isn't THAT overtuned (it is overtuned, though): UW only gives a momentary scenic view of where everyone is, it doesn't help with chasing anyone down or looping any better.
Ugh yeah there are people that defended the Dead Hard for distance and reuseable Dead Hard which was 'nerfed' so much despite the fact it was painfully obvious they are broken. Ultimate crutch (weapon) isn't that bad but it's pretty damn close especially because it obsoletes every single other information perk. Yet people will defend it exactly the same way that some people defended Dead Hard. It is amazing how many people are so devoted to one side or the other and are not at all interested in balance.
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It's a better version of Doctor's static blast power ON COMMAND. Doctor's power only works if they catch someone in the blast when they use it. Ultimate weapon waits before going off and has an additional effect ON TOP of that and also isn't blocked by distortion/Off the record making it perfect for tunnellers. Only one perk blocks it which has a high chance of being dead weight otherwise and worse in some cases is actually actively harmful (cleansing hex totems more slowly).
Utterly broken perk that completely outclasses every other information perk. The others all require conditions to be met. Ultimate weapon just goes lololol I'm gunna work when you want me to. Even if it had a 4 minute cooldown and could only be used after hook it would STILL be extremely strong. Also perk is behind a pay wall and not everyone noticed it was in shrine which lowers its usage stats.
It's not pre nerf Dead Hard broken but it's pretty damn close. Also yes, I hate old Dead Hard with a burning passion. I mostly play killer. Because of that though, I totally expect the nerf will be a baby nerf, it'll get left alone for another 6 months to a year and then MAYBE it'll get the nerf it deserves.
Don't get me wrong there's a lot of trash killer and survivor perks but there's also a lot of the same old broken ones on both sides that get used way too much. There's a lot of really underrated perks that have a lot of cool synergy on both sides but because it's not spelled out for players about how good it is, they don't get used. It doesn't help that BHVR seems to take forever to nerf extremely overused perks and even when they do, they get baby nerfs (Pain res and old Dead Hard I'm looking at you).
Some perks are overused because the game is designed badly making them necessary (windows/kindred are almost mandatory in solo) and some because there's a lack of competition for what they do. Information perks though have plenty of options but ultimate weapon outclasses all of them.
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@The_Krapper said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3676769#Comment_3676769
I would've gave up on hook or DC'd and normally I'm a big advocate against that type of thing but that right there is absolutely warranted in my opinion, I really think some people are liking that perk because I've caught people using it on other survivors already which wouldn't make sense if you've already prestige and tried the perk why in the world would you keep using it?
I try to be the change I want to see on the world on both sides. It doesn't do much good but I do see it on extremely rare occasion.
I firmly believe hook suiciding should be removed and players should be allowed to opt out while on hook with no penalty. Better them doing this and get replaced by a bot who actually tries then having them hook suicide and die ruining the game for everyone. Only if everyone is incapacitated (hooked, downed or carried) should hook escape be enabled (obviously not for perks like Deliverance and Sables basement perk). However idea that will get ignored number 9003 because BHVR only plays with their control groups where everything is sunshine and rainbows.
On Killer I 8 hook before killing and if you are actually trying to win (because 8 hooking tanks your rating so you play against a lot of people who don't try) I will let you escape unless you act like a jerk.
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Garden of Joy, Haddonfield and Badham. The trifecta of stupid god windows and extreme survivor sided nonsense. Once taught even the most beginner of survivors can waste a lot of the killers time with main building. Person who designed this map (not the artistic side, it's not awful there but not one of my favorites but this actually is subjective) and person who reworked it should never work on another map again.
Of all maps that are in dire need of an extremely obvious change this is the one.
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I hate hate hate this perk. It's a massive beginners trap in a game that is already filled to the brim with them. Please please please let me write a tutorial or give advice to make the game more beginner friendly. 😭😭😭😭😭😭😭
I am so sick of seeing things like this. Already seen this three times. OH LOOK AT US IN A COOL CIRCLE IT"S SO COOL111!!!!
The fact it doesn't work through generator blocking ON TOP of the fact it's straight up more of a killer perk then self care. Yikes. Also got tunnelled off hook and pulled off hook against my will. Another beginners trap. So that was 'fun'.
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@HolyDarky said:
This map is one of the best killermaps in the game for many reasons:
1. Finding generators is extremely difficult for survivors because they can spawn nearly everywhere. This let's survivors waste so much for finding a Generator, especially in SoloQ when you cannot tell your teammates "ey Generator in chemical room is done" or "ey Generator in the middle of them map".
A way to fix this is to make the generator spawn more reliable or better hints from the environment that a Generator is there.
2. Many loops are a deadzone against many killers. Deadzonloops are okay but this map has too many such as the one in the chemical room, the one around the clock or near one exigate.
3. Speaking of exitgates, these are so easy to patrol and defend that the game is basically over against many killers when two survivors are left or the hatch is closed. The killer have a good light of sight in the middle to see both exitgates.
It would be great if fhe exitgates could switch on the map or if more lign of sight between these two.
4. Newer survivors struggle to oriented on this map. It would be great if the environment had something that tells the players better where they are.
5. It sometimes very difficult to go upstairs since there are only two ways. This goes for both sides.
There might be more issues with this map but I feel like these are the biggest ones that need to be addressed.
I kinda wish there was a feature or even a perk (which I gave a survivor version of Joey) that allows them to mark up to three objects the whole team can see which is similar to call outs for swf. This would also be excellent for newer players to recall the exact location of generators but it could be used for other things like hex totems. Maps could also be significantly better and easier to obtain in the blood web.
There is also the joke but imo absolutely essential survivor and killer perk called ‘where the swear word are the stairs’. The amount of newer players who get completely lost on two story maps is incredible. Midwich in particular for new survivor is bad for this because the killer can make the corners of each side of the map traversable for going up or down but survivors can only go up or down stairs in the corners that have them.
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Really loathe this map. It's issues are well documented. The one downside with having stranger things back.
It's not survivor sided or balanced or killer sided. It's just broken. Depends greatly on the killer. Either you are in heaven or you are utterly screwed.
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Like this map regardless of which side I'm playing. It's not the most interesting but honestly considering how bad one way or the other some maps are... yeah...
I too wouldn't mind more maps in this realm but on the other hand it'd mean that offerings wouldn't always take us here. However I don't like offerings as a concept in general. Too easy to abuse.
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@_Onyx_ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3674811#Comment_3674811
There is little reason why Killers should ever win on this map. The only reason would be Survivors are being too brazen and doing foolish things like giving the Killer free hits near gens or while carrying or greeding a pallet they can easily drop without a care in the world.
Against a team that knows how to play safe, and play smart. You will lose.
Even against teams that greed pallets they could freely drop, if they know their distancing then they can waste time on getting a few loops out of it before dropping it. That wastes loads of a Killers time. If the team is on gens while this is happening, then the Killer will lose. A Killer has to break a God pallet if he wants to commit to a chase. And if they keep detaching to find weaker links, yet all Survivors play it smart and safe, there is nothing they can do but have their time wasted at loops that they physically cannot mindgame.
There is no way in hell this is a killer sided map.
I'm curious what maps you said were Survivor sided?
Most of them are survivor sided a few are balanced, though the word they should use is even, balanced implies fine which some are not. Rancid I believe I voted killer sided and a few others where the numbers agreed with it. I'm 70-30 killer in terms of game time.
I guess I don't groan inwardly when I get this map as killer compared to Lery, Badham, Haddonfield, Garden of Joy and others. The game is an utterly broken map which is what really matters and maybe I should have looked at the vote first because if they check which way the vote is leaning to determine how broken a map is rather then reading comments well... I should just vote with the majority.
On a personal level I do okay here. I play various killers. I guess because I don't commit to chase that much, I'll break the god pallet and redefend. I don't run slowdowns and tend to use silly perks like mad grit+agi. I use surveillance a lot though, so I 'know' when to drop a chase because a generator is being repaired. I know I'm not good in prolonged chases so I avoid them and play to my strengths. I guess I don't play to win as much as some do but I guess I always thought that better killers would often defend well here and just break all the good pallets and ignore the rest, they would still win. Perhaps I'm wrong. In this case though its irrelevant. Map is broken either way.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3673617#Comment_3673617
BHVR could fix generators that spawn too close together AND fix generators that spawn too far apart... and both can be fixed at the same time. There isn't a "we need to choose one or the other". Both can easily happen at the same time.
Many people don't want the game to be balanced on both sides. That's the real reason way less people complain about generators that are too far apart. People want killer to be punished if they don't want to patrol the full map... but they also want generators to spawn so far apart that it's not realistic to patrol the full map. It's so sad.
I will definitely agree with you on the sentiment that many players don't want the game to be balanced to be fun on both sides.
I hope to be proven wrong over the coming months with the results from these threads but I think given the... difficulties BHVR has had in map balance among other types of balance, my expectations are very low here. So while there 'shouldn't be' a need to choose one or the other, there very well might be. Problem is that choice is unlikely to be made by us lol. I'm sure it would be easy for you and others in this thread... clearly though there are other priorities like making the map look nice or whatever.
Which to be fair, at least here they succeeded but as AMGC points out, the generators and parts of the map that have the landmarks and look really great are also the parts of the map that the killer wants to defend the least. They could have put the theatre generator on the bottom floor at least somewhere, or put the stairs leading up to the generator room facing the other way so that the killer doesn't have to waste time walking to the access side to patrol that generator.
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@_Onyx_ said:
Show me where those 2 Killer sided voters are, they need a shake.
A map that can potentially spawn 17 GOD PALLETS at max...yeah, it's Survivor sided.
I actually voted killer sided and I've been voting survivor sided on most. It's easy to play as a beginner survivor for sure because everything is spelled out for you but as you get better at the game, the map does get more killer sided. Eventually those pallets do run out if they aren't used wisely and then it's all dead zones. If the killer guards the right areas and generators, it can get very nasty very quickly. Doesn't matter if there are 17 god pallets if only 6-10 of them are ever used. Though of course certain builds and killers do much better then others. Plus basement is extremely strong for killer and is guaranteed to be in one spot.
There aren't many god windows here at least which are the most survivor sided thing of survivor sided maps.
Regardless whether its survivor or killer sided though it's a horrible map with minimal skill expression. Basically plays itself. That's what really matters. Map badly needs to be changed.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
The map is way too big, and more importantly, the generators can spawn way too far apart from each other, considering there is a huge main building with lots of resources to extend chases.
I see so many people complain when generators spawn too close together.... but why does it seem like barely anyone cares when generators spawn so far apart, that it's not realistic to defend them all, and the killer is honestly better off just letting one side of the generators go undefended.
Like, seriously. Does BHVR super honestly expects for killers to do the full patrol of all the unrepaired generators, on this map? Really? That seems realistic for low mobility killers like Pig and Pyramid Head?
The reason for less people complaining about large gen spread is that it’s still possible for the killer to win. Harder to be sure yes but doable. A good game can still be had, one sided maybe but it’s over quickly and done with and everyone moves on. Close gen spread is incredibly tedious to go against if the killer decides to take advantage and the game goes on forever. Neither is good but if we have to chose a lesser evil, far is better.
Too early to say on this map. Haven’t even played it against non bot opponents yet. Like it a lot aesthetically and it seems okay. No extremely obvious spots like Garden of Joy or Haddonfield. At least that I remember. Didn’t even play that much on PTB tbh.
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Awful awful map.
Obviously some killer players whose playstyle it fits will like it but they are hardly subjective now are they?
The map is broken and imbalanced. Extremely biased to certain killers and playstyles while it completely leaves others with nothing but pain.
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Yeah the I shaped maps are some of the few that are inherently killer sided. Some still struggle but hell they struggle more anywhere else then these type of maps. I'd be willing to bet that the stats especially at higher levels generally have a higher kill rate for those I shaped maps. Sanctum of Wrath, Azarov and Suffocation. There'd only be a few others that would seriously contend.
I would argue these type of maps need to go but the problem is SO many more maps are naturally survivor sided and do I honestly trust BHVR to rework maps to make them more even? Not so much. Some of the reworks have been a successful but others have made it either worse or not much better.
All we can do is give the feedback as already done and hope for the best.
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@Nebula said:
I personally think that this is one of if not the most balanced map in the game but looking at nightlight and seeing it’s the second most killer sided map in the game does make me question its size a little bit.
I think that honestly speaks as to how survivor sided most maps are when it comes to competent survivors. Also Lery's Memorial is fourth mostly deadly currently. Sure Lery's is a killer sided map at low levels because people get lost but at higher levels its definitely survivor sided or at the very least much closer to even however I think because there's far more maps that favour survivors, the maps that are actually even are also some of the more 'deadly'. Don't get me wrong though, there is the likes of Midwich and others but these are rare and it also greatly depends on the killer. Some are hell for m1s but for Nurse and Blight it's a massacre.
Though yeah I agree 812 games played for Temple of Purgation and 724 for coal tower is a pretty small sample size honestly. I mean I like to use nightlight too because there's nothing else and no offense BHVR but you do conceal a lot of stats and reveal those that suit you. Which gives us no choice but to depend on questionable intel.
Granted given some of the 'takes' I see from time to time and the inability of certain people to see anything aside from their own view point it's not surprising BHVR doesn't want to reveal too much information but... yeah. At least on this forum (the map part that is) on the most part the takes have been sensible.
Having said that there are people who voted that Badham realms are killer sided so....
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Bit surprised this vote is diverse. I agree with what AMGC said. Maybe because the pallet count is slightly lower it gives the illusion of being killer sided for some, especially for newer/weaker players who might run windows and not looked behind them. No offence/no judging we all have our talents in life and you don’t have to be Uber good at this game to weigh in with an opinion.
However the map feels quite survivor sided with strong players. It’s not Garden of Joy or Badham bad but there’s a lot of extremely powerful loops that can’t be mind gamed. Chasing good survivors with m1 killers is hell here.
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Again well covered by others. Although I find it aesthetically pleasing, it’s got extremes in both directions. However this usually leads to being very survivor sided and brain dead to play provided the survivors don’t blunder into the dead zones.
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Survivor sided but not as extremely as some of the others in here. Poll should have had 5 options from very killer sided killer sided, even, survivor sided and very survivor sided because yeah I think it is still survivor sided but not extremely and that distinction is important in terms of priority if y’know changes are actually going to happen.
I suppose though the percentage of votes how much people think it is x sided because yeah the most one sided maps have lopsided votes in consequence.
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@AMGC said:
Disturbed Ward has stood out as one of the most survivor sided maps for a very long time. Its massive size (4th largest) along with the awkward shape and its outstanding main building make the generators incredibly hard to defend on a normal basis. The layout itself is also certainly confusing for many players, making them feel uncomfortable in this map.
The main building plays a huge role in the outcome of the trial, its safety and its size are a lighthouse for the survivor team and the fact that it is located in the middle ensures it will be used if the survivors are fit to the task. It is not easy to reach a hook from inside the building. Some of the entrances have awkward collisions.
The 3 landmarks (the greenhouse, the small courtyard and the pathway with benches) at the main entrance of the main building are treated like filler loops and do not spawn their respective pallets consistently, which makes that area of the map specially unpleasant for survivors.
Many of the filler loops in the realm are both very safe and easy to use. They also have some clutter that may interfere with the killer's power which is a problem that is also present in some of the mazetiles. The mazetiles count is 7, an amount that is excessive (specially with 4 of them being 2 pairs of connected tiles), it should be reduced to 5 or 4 (not less or other problems would arise).
The pockets in the shape of the map are incredibly problematic. First of all, they make some generators very unproductive to defend, while also having a chance of having 3 generators very close to each other in that area and the one deep inside the pocket will be unreachable with the killer patrolling around. Second, they have a pair of connected mazetiles that make ending a chase there highly valuable to the team since the killer will be very far from the rest of the map while the survivor does not need to sacrifice chase time. Third, a broken hook (due to sabotaging or a sacrifice) can easily make it impossible to reach a hook from there. Fourth, a killer can decide to defend a hooked survivor deep into the pocket and control the entrance to said pocket to not allow the team to go through unharmed (making the rescue very costful for the team).
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/671MP27O0RJ1/disturbed-ward-feedback.png
The realm Crotus Prenn Asylum needs to at least address the clutter issue and the overtuned filler loops.
The map Disturbed Ward requires a rework to its size, shape and layout while removing the pockets, weakening main building, reducing the mazetile count from 7 to 4-5 and maybe making the 3 minor landmarks more consistent with their pallets.
I like your feedback btw. Almost feel like it’s not worth commenting because you put everything so precisely.
Only thing I’ll add is that this map is one of the ones Boil Over exploiters try and get with offerings because main building top floor even as a solo is unhookable. Sure it’s not a guarantee but the fact this is a thing means this map badly needs changing. Boil over too but that’s not in this discussion.
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I think there are legitimate health reasons why survivors don't want to play against a given killer. Plague and Clown are the most common but any reason should do. The consequence would be longer queue times but that's a trade most people would make. They'd rather wait 5 more minutes (during peak it won't even be close) then play against a killer they hate or legitimately makes them unwell.
However in exchange killers can queue with up to three killers maybe more if the game allowed it and the player chose to. Realistically different MMRs for each killer is silly anyway unless the killer is new. Especially considering the system only works at the extreme top end and extreme bottom end anyway with most players being smooshed together in the middle in a mishmash of skill or lack of.
Each survivor group can only ban 2 killers which the host leader of a group decides. E.g if you play solo and match with 3 other solos up to 8 killers could be banned but playing with a 4 man swf means only 2 killers would be banned. This way SWF can't coordinate and basically assure they play against weaker killers.
If a killer is banned enough to be an issue, that killer is obviously an issue and people do not enjoy playing against it. Some people forget that a game is supposed to be entertaining for all, not someone's sadistic play pen.
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Old debate and I generally don't bother with this anymore but it's amazing there hasn't even been a (bad) attempt at a solution yet.
As a mostly killer player I have to actively try AVOID tunnelling because the game gives me so many 'here is this weak link, you should kill them' signs. In between killers knowing IMMEDIATELY when someone is off hook, the weak link being wounded and thus making huge 'here I am' sounds to the killer, even if they run DS and/or Off the record it's still more profitable to go for the hooked survivor first then it is spread hooks out. A healthy survivor takes two hits to down, so does one fresh off the hook with Off the Record.
I've read loads of good anti tunnel suggestions. The easiest and least game changing is simply removing the unhook notification and delaying the interface for the killer and adjusting perks that work when someone is taken off hook. The amount of killer players that immediately change direction the second they hear that damn unhook notification is ridiculous. The fact there isn't even a perk to silence it+delay the interface when either you unhook someone or you get unhooked is equally ridiculous. A band-aid fix to be sure but it's better then two perks which are of questionable value as anti tunnel.
Obviously any change would come with some level of compensation killer buffs seeing how ingrained tunnelling is in the meta/balance. Likely giving the killer other forms of intel, making gens take longer, making totems do something (which also doubles as totem survivor challenges not throwing the game anymore) but whatever, if ANYTHING happens it'll be an improvement if tunnelling is meaningfully dealt with.
Alternatives I've seen for anyone who cares.
- Teleporting hooks similar to pyramid head cages. Killer is completely oblivious to where the victim is (would require major changes)
- Hooking somebody 3 times does not kill them. You need a total of 5/6 hooks to kill your first victim regardless of how many times one person has been hooked. You still need to hook anyone else three times as normal. So in theory you could get 15 hooks total. Killer is thus discouraged to go after the same person because it's inefficient as opposed to efficient like it is now.
- Survivors off the hook do not make noise, bleed or give off loud noise notifications (e.g fast vaulting) for 90 seconds no matter what
There's others I've thought of but it all feels like a waste of time.