Undying + Ruin is very engaging
I'm glad that this very smart and well designed combo is in the game. How would killers function without it??? I assume they would have to actually play the game like survivors.
Maybe we should invent a perk that's let's survivors sabo hooks from anywhere on the map until that specific tool box is out. I mean fair is fair right. But they should also make it so that the aura of the killer is seen by everyone when they close to a survivor. Because what if the killer actually tries to get rid of the toolbox? Well we cant have that. So when that toolbox is out another survivor automatically gets it.
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what? do you not know what undying does? It would still be very strong without the aura reading cause that's not the point of the perk.
But undying was designed to be used in conjunction with another hex perk. It doesn't need a secondary use.
I know exactly what Undying does. I'm simply saying that their design philosophy appears to be that no perk should be useless on its own. As in you should be able to run with just one perk, and have it be any perk, and it does something. (How good that "something" functions is debatable obviously.)
So you're talking about nerfing Undying as a whole, when REALLY what you want to do is nerf a particular perk combo that happens to involve Undying. You should come up with a suggestion that targets that combo but without making Undying a perk that absolutely requires it to be used with an additional perk to function.
Retribution and Thrill of the Hunt also synergize with other hex perks. You could easily say they're "designed to be used in conjunction with another hex perk" the same as Undying. Except that Retribution and Thrill of the Hunt also function completely on their own (Retribution can make survivors Oblivious and Thrill of the Hunt slows cleansing speed on dull totems and gives bonus bloodpoints even without another hex equipped.) Undying also functions entirely on its own, it gives an aura of any survivor near a totem, even without a hex perk.
And if you look at all the other perks none of them REQUIRE a second perk. They all do something on their own. I seriously doubt that's an accident. I believe it's an intentional design decision to make it so, regardless of what the bloodweb gives you and what perks you may or may not have unlocked, you will always get at least some benefit out of any perk you equip, even if you only equip a single perk.
As I said above, you're trying to rebalance a perk combo you think is overpowered, and that's fine. But you should find a different way to do it that doesn't try to make Undying literally useless by itself.
Undying doesn't just synergize. It's whole purpose is to always be used with another perk. No one is ever going to run undying just on its own. I'm not saying to nerf Undying. I don't really care either way, but the fact that it would be unique in the fact that it requires another perk to have any real use isn't an issue. It would just be a new kind of perk. A perk that buffs other perks. It doesn't need the aura reading at all.
Because otherwise this will explode up into a ds unbreakable convo rather than a ruin undying tinkerer convo.
Undying is the problme with this convo tho. Ruin is fine, tinkerer is fine. Undying breaks both of these. All i would like is for a cooldown on ruin if it pops whilst undying is up say for 30-60 seconds where ruin is inactive. Would bring it inline with the rest of the hex perks considering they all have penalties when they are popped whilst undying is up.
And that's fine. Something like speed up Ruin's effect slightly but say it doesn't tick on for the first 10 seconds of activation, for instance, would be ok. Ruin would still be useful on its own, as would Undying, but Undying + Ruin would be a bit weaker since that 10 second cooldown would occur everytime Undying saves it.
My whole comment above was dealing specifically with the suggestion that you should just "remove the aura ability from Undying". That won't fly because you can't make Undying a useless perk on its own.
Back then I paired Ruin with Huntress Lullaby...
It was great... Forcing survivors to hit great skillcheaks but with no sound cue
and those perks on Pig.... Oh man good times... No less then 3 gens complete every match
Also... May I add if they did bring Old Ruin back Technician would be used more ( I know they won't)
Do bones or do gens. Even the fastest killers cannot be in more than one place at a time. Either they commit to chasing you and lose precious generator progress, or they leave you to pressure gens and let you pop the totem. When they see you on the totem, they're forced to either keep pressure on the generator/chase the survivor they found or run to the totem and MAYBE chase you off of it
At least it's more engaging than UB + DS.
The issue with that combo is the mori.
If the killer tunnels and camps then ruin and undying litterally do nothing
See, this suggestion is interesting, tbh. It could well be a fair idea, imo.
While I agree Ruin/Undying is fine, it's a bit of a strawman to go on about DS/UB/DH.
(don't get me wrong, I see the issues with the way two of those perks are used together and I consider one of them to be outright unfair since they mitigate mistakes and also mitigate the effect of a successful mindgame by the killer; I just see this as a pointless whataboutism that puts words in the other person's mouth)
Just had 2 games as Blight where both totems got cleansed right off the bat, leaving me with just tinkerer and barbecue. But yeah, nerf undying.
If a killer is tunneling or camping, then they're not pressuring the gens or totems. The totems could easily be destroyed then and Ruin + Undying doesn't have any effect anyways because the killer isn't chasing people of the gens.
Lol, have you...have you...
Did i mention i've been playing survivor, and ive never lost to that perk combo, in fact I get all 5 gens in the first 5 mins solo. Never lost a game, never let a klller get a single kill.
In fact i kill the killer everytime.
It doesn't change the fact that it I play this game to have fun, not as a chore.
Ure talking about a unlikely scenario, they both got cleansed early? Unlucky, that combo is really strong, it’s literally high risk high reward, just as any hex build, but undying almost takes that high risk off (but it still exists and it’s more than fair). That makes this combo much reliable bc in most scenarios undying gets cleansed after a few totems have already been done, and by that time, considering u have tinkerer too, a lot of survivors have been already hooked and there’s still 4/5 gens to go, u find that fine?
it was easier tbh hitting great skillchecks was never hard
Survivors running DS + Unbreakable/Soul Guard for ages = this is perfectly fine.
Killers running Ruin + Undying = the situation is unbearable, pls fix!
True and that even had 2 direct counters to it, toolbox with the addon that removes skill checks and stake out (and maybe brand new parts on some way)
detectives hunch and small game also existed then so it was a miracle ruin ever got any value tbh it was a pretty bad perk
I think you are making a bad assumption, namely that Undying’s “whole purpose” is to be used with other hexes. You can easily say that Thrill of the Hunt’s main purpose is to be used with another hex, or that Retribution’s main purpose is to be used with another hex, but they also have secondary uses same as Undying that work even when no other hex is in play. That’s what Undying’s aura is for, so that it can still be used by itself and still have a benefit.
And it makes sense that they don’t want situations where a player has learned a perk but can’t use it without other specific perks. Keep in mind that Ruin is a teachable Hag perk so anybody that doesn’t own the perk or own Hag doesn’t have it. But they may still own Undying or Blight. Take away the aura from Undying and now their choice may be get no benefit at all from Undying if they use it by itself or use it with Blood Favor maybe. (Yay?)
So I really do think this is an intentional general design decision that perks must all function on their own even if they are the only perk you use. Any suggestions for nerfing the Undying plus Ruin combo that are driving this topic would need to keep that in mind.
Undying is literally only good on a couple of hex perks. Since it resets tokens (which, i get the design choice but its still a terrible one imo) it is basically useless, except with ruin which makes it, almost good? Honestly this combo is really only good against bad survivors because it requires survivors to leave gens to work. I dont get why ppl are mad.
So is an Exhaustion perk + DS every game.
It just makes it so you can't slam gens and end a game very quickly, at the price of 2 perk slots *that can be removed* if the killer applies pressure to you.
and yet the devs still nerfed it for the newbies instead of telling them to git gud.
I feel like perhaps you do not like this combo. When killers don't take perks to mess with Gens, the game can be ridiculous short. (easy Survivor win) I have faced this combo many times as a survivor, and it does slow down the game (which I believe is 100% a good thing), but it can and is still defeated often enough. Players have plenty of perks the killer can find annoying as well.
When I play a killer, with any hexes, I feel like the survivors cleanse all 5 totems in the first 60 seconds. When I play survivor, we can never find more then 2 totems.
idk i don't see a problem with having one perk which only works with other perks like a booster perk. It's not like ppl use it without another hex perk anyway lets be real.
I have.
Exactly, Solo Q is so freakin DEAD now since the realease of this perk. At least previously u could somewhat carry the team if you are really good and better than the killer. But now? Damn, i have to get chased + do 2-3 gens + do 4 totems in worst case and have to bait the killer away from the gen nearly finished which doesnt work anymore cuz tinkerer is popular. Its just a nightmare to play Solo Q now.
i think it would definitely be less problematic than it currently is.
however, there would be a few things i'd still criticize:
1) the RNG based nature of the perk
2) the way it overshadows TOTH
3) the required coordination to take care of it properly (basically just widens the gap between solo and SWF, especially due to the survivors lacking any information on what their team is doing, when to go to a totem and when to rather stay away from them - this would be less of a problem in high ranks, but it would still be present)
4) it would still dominate low rank matches
now, the first one is just a problem of how te perk was designed in the first place (and it kinda boils down to personal preference aswell), there isnt a whole lot we can do about that, though the second to fourth point would certainly be something i'd still dislike about it.
and i honestly dont think there should be a perk combo that dominates low ranks like that. that might be solvable with rank specific balancing patches (balancing changes that only affect certain MMR rankings, to help new players understand the game better and make it easier for them - in a sense, make the game grow in difficulty the higher you rank in the MMR system to match your increasing skill level on both sides), but with the current version of the game i dont think it would be justifiable.
currently i feel like there are some killers who let themselves get carried by this perk combo. im not saying that a good perk combo that helps you out in your games, one you can rely on, would be a bad thing, but if the only reason they are at the rank they are at is a specific perk build, that scares me a little. it would be these kind of killers that end up having a really hard time playing against actual good survivors, due to their lack of game knowledge. they then end up here, on the forums, complaining about things that arent a actual issue / demanding things that would break (as in "make them too good") actual high rank killers who dont suffer from what they are suffering from.
ive seen people on this forum complaining about things that arent actual game issues, but rather linked to their own skill level. and ive seen demands, such as people asking for free hits (e.g. someone wanted random jungle gyms to have a wall instead of the window / pallet, to ensure more deadzones).
i just fear that the combo could end up putting people against others they arent ready to go up against yet. that would make their experience quite miserable and would lead to them having a wrong picture of the game and its balance.
imho, if you are rank 1, then you should be that rank because your personal skill level is high enough to be there and not because of the perk / item / offering choices you've made (this goes for both sides - and i mean "you" not as "you as an individual", but as everyone in general).
Honestly, undying + ruin should be in the game by default. Survivors actually having to do side objectives makes for longer and more engaging games and more BP for everybody.
I'm actually really happy to have to do totems.
Also, if OP thinks survivors have to play harder than killers, then they've never mained killer.
The amount of people trying to divert the conversation is crazy. Why do people try to justify broken stuff with more broken stuff?
"Keys need a nerf."
"BuT kILLeRs HaVe MoRis."
"Undying, Ruin, Tinkerer is broken on high mobility killers."
"But DS UnBrEaKaBle."
If this is how we discuss things, it's no wonder the game is still a broken, unbalanced mess. This community needs to stop thinking only about their side and start trying to balance things for everyone.
I disagree. By using these diversion tactics, it just assures that nothing is done and we don't get anywhere. Ideally, both of these combos should be adjusted. DS Unbreakable should've been changed along time ago, I admit, but that lies on the devs. There has been plenty of feedback to change it but for some reason they change Discordance. But to say that the same people using DS UB are the ones who say Ruin Undying Tinkerer should be nerfed is a strawman.
I got a notification saying you responded but nothings showing up. IDK if it was deleted or something.
There it is, nevermind. Yes, you did indeed use a strawman. You stated that the same people arguing against Ruin Tinkerer Undying are the ones who use DS Unbreakable without any real proof so you could write the post off as hypocritical. Maybe some do and those people are hypocritical, but to write off the entire post on that pretense is strawmanning.
Fairness based on BS is a dumb way to balance things and only works if both sides use the BS. Spirit with an ebony mori and R/U/T is perfectly fair against SWF death squads but is broken against a team of solos. R/U/T is overkill on high mobility killers against a team of solos, especially when the killer can see if you do literally any totem. All the counters rely on communication and coordination that is only consistent in a SWF which is commonly stated as OP (which I agree with.) The counters aren't consistent for solo teams and a lot of it is based on getting lucky RNG in a game already overflowing with it.
Welp, this turned into a ds+ub vs undying+ruin bs where bias show more than actual knowledge about both sides, which is absolutely disgusting, but okay. Just saying, ds+unbreakable is disgusting but at least lasts ''only'' for a minute(its a lot, but comparing to undying+ruin, its not anymore), undying+ruin can last for the entire game or until where it doesnt even matter if you dont have it anymore because the course of the match is usually already decided. The only condition of this combo to be working is undying not getting broken, which the perk itself alright as a direct counter for it even if the totem is not being broken (amazing design), this would be kinda okay if solos were buffed in some good way.
Also, if you guys think the game should be balanced around bs things like ds+unbreakable then ure delusional, ds+unbreakable should have been nerfed long ago, and undying should take a serious look into it, cause games ending at 4/5 gens isnt fine (not really my case, but ive seen it too much), even old ruin was better.
Also ''killers have been dealing with ds+unbreakable for years'' thats some hatred and poor way of thinking but okay... Anyway, dont blame survivors for that, blame the devs, i mean, survivors have the option to use it, and they chose to, and thats okay!! Using something that's in game is okay, u payed the game and u choose what u wanna do when playing it, and, if a killer decides to use undying+ruin its okay, its on the game they payed for! The problem is that those things are on the game and thats on the devs to blame, because they shouldnt be in the first place lol and thats what this discussion should be about
I challenge anyone at any role. U can pick and show me
hey hey look killer has 2 perks that we can get rid off in game how about we go on forum and complain cuz we cant gen rush or bully him as much. cry me a river just clense the ######### thing ez as that
If that's The worst that you've been putting up with, and then you've had it easy and I'd stop complaining. try dealing with a high mobility killer running undying + pop + retribution + haunted ground or undying tinkerer + ruin + retribution, and Gods forbid you run into a Wraith with an All-Seeing add-with either of these cu life would get pretty hard pretty fast for you.
This game is survivor-sided even with undying-ruin. Survivors have it easier that killers ever have, and you're mad when killers FINALLY get a good combo. Do bones instead of genrushing every match.
Undying and ruin is one of the best combos on dbd. It forces the survivors to do totems and it changes some builds if they run a counter to totems. Now is it OP? Nope. I don't think they should make changes to either perks. They are working as intended to slow down survivors.
You've used undying without another hex? Umm why? For what earthly purpose?
Meh, I did bones before undying, still do now, but now I have even more of an incentive to cleanse it all on top of possibly facing a NoED player.
And yeah, with tinkerer, It's a great combo that final brought pressure back to survivor and make it feel more like a killer hunting survivor rather than survivor hunting the killer like it used to be before xD
But that's only my opinion, not a general statement.
Killers why the hell do you even play this game anymore? Literally everything you do to get the edge is placed under scrutiny. We should just push for AI bots and be done with it.
I was curious to see how useful the aura information is on its own. Since survivors currently are cleansing every totem they find you can get a few free aura pings per game from it.
yeah pretty much ruin was the sole reason why you would ever want to master great skilchecks nowdays its pretty pointless they nerfed the values of greats too to make you settle for goods :/