According to BHVR's own stats
- Hag is the least popular killer in red ranks despite most tier lists placing her at around B to A tier.
- Freddy has the highest kill rate at red ranks, being over 75%. Freddy has an average pickrate too, Being the third most played killer.
- The top 5 most popular killers in red rank are Spirit, Billy, Freddy, Huntress, and Ghostface.
- The top 5 strongest killers in red ranks are Freddy, Billy, Spirit, Hag, and Pig.
- Statistically, the Clown, Demogorgon, and Nurse have the lowest kill rates in red ranks.
- Statistically, despite Nurse still being rated as S tier by some people, the Nurse in red ranks has a lower kill rate than Legion, Wraith, Trapper, Pig, Plague, Doctor, Leatherface, and Hag.
- The Clown is statistically the weakest killer in the game right now in red ranks. (When all other ranks are taken into consideration, the Nurse is statistically the weakest killer in the game).
- While the Spirit had the highest pickrate in the game, her killrate was only in the top 3. She was only the most popular killer, not statistically the strongest.
- Statistically the best 3 killers are Spirit, Billy, and Freddy. All of them have strong winrates and pickrates.
According to BHVR's own stats the following statements can be considered true.
- If Spirit was "overperforming", then she either barely grazed that bar or Billy and Freddy are coming close to it. (If they aren't already. If one of them is over the line I'd say Freddy is probably what BHVR would consider "overperforming").
- Nurse is no longer one of the best killers in the game. Statistically she is one of the weakest right now. She is only statistically stronger than Demogorgon and Clown.
- The Clown is statistically the worst killer in the game.
- Huntress is a very popular killer despite having a low killrate (if my estimate is correct Huntress is 14th.)
- Placing killer viability based on these stats is kinda tricky. But if these stats are true (which there's no reason to assume they aren't, then the following killers would be considered "not viable" at red ranks without a lot of help (Legion, Wraith, Nurse, Demogorgon, Clown, Plague, Doctor, Leatherface). (Hag would have been included due to her low pickrate but her high killrate disqualified her from what I would consider "not viable".)
Also, according to these very same statistics
- Hawkins, the Game, and Lery's are statistically the strongest killer maps. All of these maps are small, and Hawkins in particular has a distinct lack of safe loops, making loops winnable for the killer.
- Haddonfield is statistically the safest survivor map. This map features a lot of safe window structures and popular spots for the perk "Balanced Landing", allowing the creation of very long chases with minimal effort.
So with this in mind. I have a lot of questions for BHVR based on these stats.
- Are Freddy and Hillbilly on your radar for changes? Are they, what you would consider, overperforming?
- What exactly caused Spirit to be "overperforming"? Is it her pickrate or the combination of pickrate and killrate?
- Are there any plans to address the 3 statistically underperforming killers? And by "any plans" I mean, within the next 2-3 patches and not "they're on our list of things to address".
- Nurse was the recipient of a rework that, while on the PTB, received pages and pages of negative feedback from players. That feedback was ignored and the only addons that people considered good on the reworked Nurse were nerfed when she was pushed to the live server. Now that the feedback remains negative and the statistics show she is an incredibly weak killer at red ranks, are there any plans to go back and revisit this rework to try and address why she is so unpopular and weak?
- What is the reason behind Hag having an incredibly low pickrate. There are very few metrics that consider Hag to be a weak killer. The only logic behind her low pickrate is that people simply do not enjoy her playstyle for whatever reason. Is there any plan to make Hag a more fun killer to play as without necessarily increasing her strength?
Comments
Well thats just your opinion. We dont know about the pickrate changes, so you're making up things. And plenty of people still like to play her, you salty nurse leavers just dont admit it. "Everyone who has fun with her, doesnt play her" is their only argument and a childish one. I started playing her again after the nerfs, since she was busted before. Its INCREDIBLE, how ######### strong you are as Nurse. I dont get the balance complaints at all, she is still by far the strongest.
Know how players want you to play both sides to understand killer/survivor issues? Nurse mains have to play other killers to get a realistic view of the matter. Once they're playing real dbd with nonnurse, they may come back to nurse and appreciate infinite power again.
Actually..I'm looking at the newly provided stats over the old ones, so before you say something without thinking again I'll leave you with this..the idea everyone agreed on was an addon pass..the devs made a call nobody except die hard nurse haters agreed with..and then they not only have gone through with it..but have been dodging very simple questions which frankly is rude and insulting..all the respected nurse players I know of absolutely despise the change..not 1 nurse main I've seen gave it a thumbs up..because the concept was stupid..the devs saw a problem and then went to solve an issue that didnt exist..so here we are...
Afaik they did not release the stats in a way that they're directly comparable. The last stats they released where from here:
Where they listed PC and console separate. She had a 22% pickrate on PC rank 1, but none available for xbox and ps4. If you mix them, we dont know how much nurse is played at rank 1, so we cant compare them to the current stats.
I'll just let the nurse leavers be. You argue with facts, logic, tier lists and maths. And their only argument is "You dont play her. I just dont have fun, ok?". So do the infiniteabusing, instahealing, dstriking, borrowed time, Mettle of nonsenser argue.
Lol well based on her red rank stats it says all we needed to see to prove all the nurse haters were just blustering..only beats demo gorgan and pfft..clown..worse stats than wraith..and legion..I find that hilarious..also as a console player myself..I can tell you..on console you see maybe two nurses a month..at lower ranks usually..so they dont have much stat sway..that's why I can take that number a little more seriously
Oh you're a console nurse. That says everything, she is not made for console. Sorry bud
Come to PC, then you understand why she needs a nerf. She is that overpowered here and still is. I wonder if most of the nurse complaints come from console nurses...
Peanits is about as politician as you can get.
I've seen enough gameplay to know it makes no difference..try not to be so shallow thinking..it wont get you far
Lol if you say so
Actually giving bonus bp to solos and killers that have to play with them is a great start.
Hehe. If you think the current speed curve coming out of a teleport is bad, be thankful you didn't play her back when she first came out. A full second (maybe longer, i cant remember) of not being able to move at all after teleporting was NOT fun.
I just want good survivors and good nurses to be treated the same. Adding the cool down mechanic is like forcing r1 survivors to have a cool down before working on another gen. I bet a good nurse couldn't beat 4 good survivors now. They can use the maximum of 2 blinks with standard distance plus the cool down to their advantage. BTW, they all have dead hard so that is 3 actual perfect blinks every time before they go on a hook. To have a perfect game, that must be done 3 times to each survivor...unless you camp them to death.
But what the OP is asking is for more transparency on WHY BHVR does what it does. I would like this as well.
Like survivors get nerfed for 3 years now? While Nurse got her first nerf?
*wait, there was one shortly after release. Her second nerf
They added the cooldown mechanic because she's able to teleport to a survivor, thus bypassing all of their normal defenses in a chase including walls, windows and pallets. An ability that powerful can only be balanced if it comes with a drawback that reads "If you screw up, you lose the chase".
Nurse's chase times are easily the shortest in the game. She can down even the best survivors in seconds, despite the cooldown. Your comparison is flawed; Nurse's blinks are the equivalent of a survivor ability that reads "After hitting two tremendously difficult skill checks, instantly repair a generator to completion".
She still has a kill-rate of more than 60% in red ranks, so I'd say that she's still quite capable of defeating 4 good survivors.
Nurse has had 2 major nerfs. No other killer has been nerfed that hard.
Remember she had 3 standard blinks with normal movement speed when she came out.
She's been run over by a bus.
She had 103% movement speed. Run over by a bus, destroyed, completely and utterly demolished from S-tier into S-tier!
You failed to mention that even the lowest kill rate killer is still performing above the 50% kill rate.
I knew the kill rates were a lot higher than 50%. My own Spirit gets about 4k in most of my games. It has become so frequent that I had to remind myself that 4k is not what the game is balanced around.
Although I sometimes feel salty that I don't get 4k. I guess that's why there are so many killer complaints on the forums despite killers overperforming across the board.
@Peanits
I find it very odd how the indoor maps have a very high kill rate because the last survivor is guaranteed an escape if they play their cards right and are facing a non-defensive killer.
I escaped plenty of times in the EGC because these maps spawn Exit Gate across the map.
I also escaped from Hawkins Lab, but you'll have to take my word on that.
I'm just saying that, I can't believe the escape rate is low, but there might be other variables that make this value so high! :)
@BunnyTheHutt to your coment to Peanits not answering any questions. Actually it shows that there are a lot of questions based on the 3 screenshots and excluding everything else. Just think a step further pls.
@DarKStaR350z I think that is what Peanits actually wanted to point out. These are just plain numbers and "a bunch of factors" influences it. Not sure if you request a 4h presentation in an auditorium to go through all the factors that are to be noticed, but I'm pretty sure the obvious ones you just mentioned they are aware of.
@MrsPiggyIsSoSneaky You wonder why BHVR might answer like that to specific posts? Because many of these are insulting, don't see the whole picture, are super subjective and not constructive at all. My point of view, I would answer the same way to a post like this.
@Sluzzy Streamers are survivor mains? What about HybridPanda? And Freddy is the strongest killer because he has an easy learning curve. No slowdown on slowdown traps or nearly uncounterable fake pallets and teleport. That's an easy to use basekit on a fast killer.
@PickCollins I really feel the need to list some points on your posts, because several of them are simply wrong.
Your statements based on three screenshots are hilarious. These statistics contain people playing for dailies, different platforms and across all ranks. You have basically no idea of statistics, when this rough information makes you judge about killers. Make a new chart that shows clown killrates of players that played him 10 hours, 100 hours or 500 hours. You might rethink your statement to be an assumption.
Your conclusion to deadly killer maps just considered the size. How about the lack of LOS? Not talking about that and in my opinion the far more relevant thing. Also Haddonfield is a small map, but you don't mention size here.
Then you say "The ONLY logic behind hag's low pickrate is that people don't enjoy her playstyle". I would like to see your exclusion process to determine there may be no other reasons. I'd rather guess you just had no other ideas in mind at that moment.
You are relating over performance to pickrate or killrate: "If Spirit was overperforming on a macro scale, then it had to have been her pickrate or killrate". Because this is the only info you got at the moment? How about average chase time being too short? No info about that but most likely a thing that can justify an over performance. Again a rough quick shot here.
"A killer that I *pronounce: 'I'* consider not viable is a killer who isn't able to reliably 3K on average" The game should be around a 2K on average, which you call a draw. So all your assumptions are based on a different view from what the game should be, apparently. And that the ranking system is far away from perfect is known. But a 2K is still not a loss, a 2K can be up to 10 hooks which is definitely a PIP. And you forget that "average" is the medan, there are deviations to this. If you perform better regularly, you rank up until you reach the rank you should stay at. Being a "rank 3" means, on average you get a safety pip once you reached rank 3, sometimes +1 sometimes -1. That's what ranking systems should do. Being a red rank doesn't mean you 4K every game.
Regarding nurse, you keep repeating that she is weak at red ranks. Simply wrong, you read the wrong chart. It was answered already, just to make sure: She is harder on console and the first chart contains all ranks and platforms. Nurse on PC red ranks has 65% kill rate wich is 2.6 average per game. That IS powerful.
You say "only reddit showed some postive nurse feedback which is a survivor sided environment". Well, with that you agree to what has been said. Survivors give positive feedback, killers give negative feedback. Is reddit less valid so you can claim negative feedback was heavier?
And regarding "nurse mains negative feedback should be enough to reconsider". Well, with that you point into the direction that you critisised yourself. Who yells loudest outplays the stats.
I think her high killrate is confunding with her low pickrate. Most survivors aren't prepared for hag.
It's frustrating seeing the same nurse mains make post after post after post about the nurse changes when I can guarantee the vast majority of people are fine with them.
I played a game with her yesterday at rank 1. 4k on farm map. The only mistake the survivors made was 2 of them spawning next to each other. Nurse can still end chases SUPER fast. She still is very strong. She is just now harder to play. Just adapt. Stop making posts. Practice more instead. Or claim that she is no fun and throw her away because you can't 4k on a whim anymore.
the lowest avg killrate is still around 65% and many players are still spouting the killer pity-party crap.
it would be laughable if it wasn't so pathetic...
"killers clearly need massive buffs across the board, 1-2 escapes in even one round is unacceptable." /s
Was about to say the same thing lowest kill rate across the board is 55% besides nurse. Kill rates seem to spike significantly in red ranks where all the "gen rushing" and "swf death squads" reside. I think given the statistics it's safe to say that the pendulum has swung the other way from DBD's early days.
Why is that I keep seeing "nurse got a rework"
Rework example-----> freddy, a whole new killer prettymuch.... actually is a completely new killer...
Nerf example-----> Nurse... added an additional few seconds before blinking again... the power is the same... she was not reworked.
A 60% killrate is a 2K on average. Your killrate per match is either 0/25/50/75/100% of the survivors.
Nurse's killrate is statistically one of the worst in the game for red ranks. Where the best Nurse players lie. BHVR says her killrate is climbing back up, but we can't be sure of that. All I have been getting from the devs is the same equivocating responses that roughly translate to "We don't care enough about this issue to monitor it but if we say that you'll get pissed so here's this BS statement we're gonna give you that is contradictory to what we've done previously".
The only killer she out-performs is Demogorgon and Clown. I think that is very telling regarding this rework, and that very telling message is that it was a failure.
The Hag statement I had made was taking into context her low popularity despite her high killrate. Many top level players rate Hag as a very strong killer who is just short of being one of the best killers in the game. I had said "the only reason" because I can't think of any reason behind her low popularity besides her playstyle simply not being a fun playstyle. Statistically she performs well, but she isn't a very popular killer.
Also I am fully aware of the graph that puts Nurse as the only killer with a sub 50% killrate. That's why I did not use it. There is another graphic that has the statistics for killers in red ranks. I used that for my analysis. And that graph very clearly states the only killers Nurse is outperforming statistically are Demogorgon and Clown. I understand Nurse is a controversial killer, so any change that doesn't instantly dumpster her into the F tier is gonna be seen as "not enough" to limit her from being the best. But let me ask you to imagine being in my shoes.
You grind, hundreds upon hundreds into thousands of hours to learn Nurse and get to R1 with her. Sympathetic to the addon rework becuase you knew it was necessary, only for an extra basekit nerf that a VERY small minority of people wanted. Now imagine the time it takes to adjust thousands of hours of muscle memory for the change. I know I constantly get the "if you spam blinks ur a bad Nurse" but that's the thing. You can't NOT spam blinks. You need them else you have map pressure inferior to Clown, statistically the weakest killer in the game.
Does that not at all make you rethink the "she's the best killer still" statement. Nurse mains say she isn't. The stats, which do not lie, say she isn't. What more do you need? Do you need Nurse herself to come flying out of the screen to grab you by the throat and scream "buff me you pieces of #########"?
Honestly I don't understand what you are trying to accomplish. The most vocal Survivor opinions about Nurse was always "I can't loop. OP", and BHVR has even said complaints about something will draw attention to it. Complaints about Nurse drew attention to her. But what were those complaints? They were Omegablink and 3/4/5 Blinks. Barely ever were survivors saying "Nurse just beat us with no addons? Damn Nurse is so broken and unfair there's no counterplay!", and that was because that statement is false.
>A 60% killrate is a 2K on average. Your killrate per match is either 0/25/50/75/100% of the survivors.
That's uhh... that's not how percentages work with averages. Also, it's 65.8% which is closer to 70% than it is to 60% if we're rounding.
But you already had your conclusion before the data even came out, and you're fudging it to fit your conclusion (see: calling 65.8% "60%") so I don't know that there's much discussion to be had here.
EDIT: For those curious, 65.8% ~= 2.6 kills per round. Previously, she had 72.71 ~= 2.9 kills per round. So that long post is saying the Nurse is terrible because she now gets 1 fewer kills every 4 rounds on average.
Hag
"Among the lowest"
She's picked more than nearly half the cast (7 killers are picked less than her at red ranks)
"kill rate is among the lowest"
By a kill every 5 rounds, compared to the average.
By the way you're measuring, even if she had her kill rate at 72% like it previously was it'd still be 'among the lowest' since it'd only be better than 8/17 killers.
We need Nurse changes. That is undeniable.
"Statistically, the Clown, Demogorgon, and Nurse have the lowest kill rates in red ranks." Recently right because before the nerf im pretty sure she was near the highest
Plus her kill rate is definitely lower right now because many people who aren't very well-versed in nurse wanted to try out her changes.
I saw many people just fooling around with her new addons, especially the one that makes you an m1 killer after the first blink hit.
It is guaranteed that her kill rate will be higher the next time stats are released.
But as always, nurse mains want it all about them. Demogorgon has a very low kill rate, but literally no one would argue he is in a bad spot. He is a very good killer, and everyone puts him in high B or A tier. Where is the outcry for the demogorgon, nurse mains? By your metrics, he needs help. Oh, he's fine? I guess picking and choosing which stats you want to discuss isn't a very effective way of talking about a killer's strength...
What I want to know is, does DC's count as kills in their statistics? Cause a lot of people just DC as soon as they find out they are going against spirit or Freddy
Does this mean survivors can get some buffs? 70% winrate to killers and 2 of my main killers sitting at the bottom lmao.
@Omans blames nurses for being selfish when sharing feedback then gives feedback regarding demogorgon... makes sense...
@Lagoni somebody said devs aren't accounting for dc's in the stats
Instead of making fun of others comments why not share your "research" on spirit since you said you don't balance only on numbers. Also why are you all silent about nurse and why not explain the stats that are showing her as a weak killer now or give a reason why she is not that weak despite the low killrate in comparison with the others. @not_Queen care to join the discussion or are you hiding as always?
She is not by far the strongest, especially not without add-ons.
@Uxoricide it's a comparison. But I understand nurse players don’t like being compared to other killers. Spent so long so far above other killers it must be tough to simply only be tied at the top with spirit now..
The devs didn't say only addons in the beginning either. They said "addons and other minor changes".
Okay how do you gurantee that? What will you do if the majority isn't? So please explain i am very curious to see that. So go ahead deliver proof and fullfill your gurantee.
Yes one game in red ranks is proof now. You know what? According to your flawed logic survivors have to be nerfed into the ground because currently we are wooping a 75-90% escape rate in my swf (this is average for each of the 4 of us).
Imagine to be so lul to jump to conclusions from a single game against survivors who might be potatoes for all we know, you honestly want to tell me they didn't make a single mistake? I doubt it upload the video of that game, you tell stories that are simply not true at all. I mostly play survivor you know and everytime I see a friend of mine play with randoms who last 20seconds or shorter in a chase with a nurse i know and see that they suck donkeyballs. How is it me and the people I chose to play with can last longer in a chase and run that killer around? Because bad nurse ofc that will be the point right?
As for your gurantee:
"GoOd NuRsEs WiLl sTiLl dOMiNaTe"
Rip nurse, who would have thought she will ever be as worse as clown.. And we all know how clown struggles against a strong team, 1 kill at best..
Small change btw. Nurse still strongest killer in the game btw.
Yeah it's really pathetic, seems like all the feedback of the nurse mains were legit and right.
The sad thing and most infuriating thing is that instead of acknowledging that she is barely better than Clown and Demo, all we get is the same equivocating BS that Legion mains were fed.
Except I think Nurse mains are gonna have to wait a couple decades before they ever decide she's worth addressing.
Honestly I don't know what the devs think a successful rework looks like. Freddy was a successful rework. In fact I'd say with these stats you could make an argument he was too successful. Nurse was an abject dumpster fire of a rework. Nurse mains hate it and think it's unfun, the stats show it hurt her like a ton of bricks.
Honestly, what more does BHVR need? Does Nurse herself need to come flying out of the screen and Mori Peanits in front of the dev team to convince them she needs help?
No... the team actually sees Billy as the balance standard for the killers. The only thing that's going to happen to Billy is his addons will be updated.
They said the Nurse will get her addons updated.
We all know what "addon update" means now lol.
The team confirmed that base kit changes were coming on stream... if changes are coming to the base kit of one of the OG's and favorite, bhvr will announce em... Doc should be next... the list from the Q&A shows Doc, chainsaw killers and then Mikey
..speaking of infuriating..
@Peanits, why did you (not like you-you) merge all the statistics (apart from Nurse's own) from each platform into one bloody mess? No platform treats their killers the same, so merging all of them together screws up the end result.
There's a reason why people don't take Behavior as a whole seriously. Why memes like "pretty good job" and such run rampant.
"she's picked more than nearly half the cast"
10 killers see more play than her at red ranks. Also her pickrate, if you look at the graph, borderline overlaps with Clown and Demogorgon. You are just as likely to find a red rank Nurse as you are to find a red rank Demogorgon. Think about that.
"By a kill every 5 rounds, compared to the average.
"By the way you're measuring, even if she had her kill rate at 72% like it previously was it'd still be 'among the lowest' since it'd only be better than 8/17 killers."
Dude I will bet like a solid $50 that you are probably one of the people who thought the idea that Clown could get more than a 2K at red rank is inconceivable. Yet when these stats come out that show he averages more than that, there isn't talk of "wow Clown isn't as weak as we thought he was". No in fact people are like "wow Clown is statistically the worst killer in the game".
Guess what? Nurse barely outperforms him. Nurse isn't the strongest killer in the game if she is barely beating out the literal weakest.
They said basekit changes will be "minimal' and if I remember correctly they also said they will be "very calculated and measured" in their changes.
Sloppily throwing on an extra cooldown to the same power, calling it a day, and now refusing to acknowledge what your rework did statistically isn't calculated or measured. It's lazy and disrespectful to the people who had faith they would keep their word on this rework.
Given how you blatantly mischaracterized Tru3 when he was giving advice on how to counter Spirit I'd say ur Rhetoric is close enough to being a survivor main.
It's okay. I used to be one too. Then I woke up.