According to BHVR's own stats
- Hag is the least popular killer in red ranks despite most tier lists placing her at around B to A tier.
- Freddy has the highest kill rate at red ranks, being over 75%. Freddy has an average pickrate too, Being the third most played killer.
- The top 5 most popular killers in red rank are Spirit, Billy, Freddy, Huntress, and Ghostface.
- The top 5 strongest killers in red ranks are Freddy, Billy, Spirit, Hag, and Pig.
- Statistically, the Clown, Demogorgon, and Nurse have the lowest kill rates in red ranks.
- Statistically, despite Nurse still being rated as S tier by some people, the Nurse in red ranks has a lower kill rate than Legion, Wraith, Trapper, Pig, Plague, Doctor, Leatherface, and Hag.
- The Clown is statistically the weakest killer in the game right now in red ranks. (When all other ranks are taken into consideration, the Nurse is statistically the weakest killer in the game).
- While the Spirit had the highest pickrate in the game, her killrate was only in the top 3. She was only the most popular killer, not statistically the strongest.
- Statistically the best 3 killers are Spirit, Billy, and Freddy. All of them have strong winrates and pickrates.
According to BHVR's own stats the following statements can be considered true.
- If Spirit was "overperforming", then she either barely grazed that bar or Billy and Freddy are coming close to it. (If they aren't already. If one of them is over the line I'd say Freddy is probably what BHVR would consider "overperforming").
- Nurse is no longer one of the best killers in the game. Statistically she is one of the weakest right now. She is only statistically stronger than Demogorgon and Clown.
- The Clown is statistically the worst killer in the game.
- Huntress is a very popular killer despite having a low killrate (if my estimate is correct Huntress is 14th.)
- Placing killer viability based on these stats is kinda tricky. But if these stats are true (which there's no reason to assume they aren't, then the following killers would be considered "not viable" at red ranks without a lot of help (Legion, Wraith, Nurse, Demogorgon, Clown, Plague, Doctor, Leatherface). (Hag would have been included due to her low pickrate but her high killrate disqualified her from what I would consider "not viable".)
Also, according to these very same statistics
- Hawkins, the Game, and Lery's are statistically the strongest killer maps. All of these maps are small, and Hawkins in particular has a distinct lack of safe loops, making loops winnable for the killer.
- Haddonfield is statistically the safest survivor map. This map features a lot of safe window structures and popular spots for the perk "Balanced Landing", allowing the creation of very long chases with minimal effort.
So with this in mind. I have a lot of questions for BHVR based on these stats.
- Are Freddy and Hillbilly on your radar for changes? Are they, what you would consider, overperforming?
- What exactly caused Spirit to be "overperforming"? Is it her pickrate or the combination of pickrate and killrate?
- Are there any plans to address the 3 statistically underperforming killers? And by "any plans" I mean, within the next 2-3 patches and not "they're on our list of things to address".
- Nurse was the recipient of a rework that, while on the PTB, received pages and pages of negative feedback from players. That feedback was ignored and the only addons that people considered good on the reworked Nurse were nerfed when she was pushed to the live server. Now that the feedback remains negative and the statistics show she is an incredibly weak killer at red ranks, are there any plans to go back and revisit this rework to try and address why she is so unpopular and weak?
- What is the reason behind Hag having an incredibly low pickrate. There are very few metrics that consider Hag to be a weak killer. The only logic behind her low pickrate is that people simply do not enjoy her playstyle for whatever reason. Is there any plan to make Hag a more fun killer to play as without necessarily increasing her strength?
Comments
I haven't really seen any DBD montages or anything, but I'll take your word for it. And I've only ever played solo survivor. I haven't played SWF before. Comm's in a SWF group seems unfair, but a killer shouldn't be balanced around its ability to deal with that..
Nothing has been done against SWF yet because people shouldn't be punished for wanting to play with their friends. And there is certainly people playing SWF that aren't in comms with eachother. The people that are in comms have an advantage, but just based on the nature of the game being asymmetrical, I don't think there's anything that can/should be done about it. Especially since there is no way to prove that a SWF group is in comms. The most BHVR can do is not support voice chat.
That would make no sense. Practically nobody complains about Billy. Nobody complains about him because he's balanced. He's a strong killer with solid counter play. They might touch his addons. But even those are fine really.
I don't want to punish friends who play together, but you admit it yourself the advantage it provides is basically unfair.
Killers need to be design around this because if they don't have the capability to deal with the most broken and powerful techniques in the game from survivors, survivors will always win and the game will become extremely stale very quickly. Of course survivors have been getting weaker with updates but that just shows you how strong and how much of the power role they really are if even after years of nerfs they are still too powerful in some aspects.
But my suggestion to fix this, and many others suggestion, doesn't even affect SWF. If we make solo survivors comparable or on the same level as SWF, then we can make the game much easier to balance around. Right now there are essentially 2 game modes, solo survivor and SWF survivor. 1 of them is significantly harder than the other, and 1 uses tactics and 3rd party software that was never intended to be a part of Dead by Daylight.
This makes balancing the game very harder because if something is too weak for solo survivors that doesn't mean it isn't broken and game breaking with SWF, or vice versa. Some killers can deal with SWF (cough like Nurse USED to be able to) and some just can't. That is bad game design especially when the problem can be mitigated by fixing the survivor issue of SWF.
This is how the devs want the survivors to look after all upcoming killer nerfs.
This image demonstrates the survivors treating the killer like a joke.
Actually you are wrong about the map - it is Rotten Fields. But while we are on that you mentioned BL would you also ask since BL was part of that map being actully strong and that perk being changed now, are they going to consider changing Haddonfield to be friendly to non BL users too ?
Honestly, it will never be fun to play against a good Nurse. Ever. These nerfs have just made it harder to be a good Nurse. Right now, you do what you can to mindgame and juke the Nurse, and pray that they make a mistake. Survivors now just have more time to separate themselves from the Nurse if she messes up.
I've said it during every nerf they've made to the Nurse since release, that she will never be 'balanced' until they change her blink power. Windows, pallets, and mindgames are the 3 things you can use to defend yourself from killers in this game when in a chase. The Nurse negates 2 of those things. You are left with hoping the Nurse doesn't predict you correctly as your only defense. They could increase the blink recharge fatigue to 10 seconds and that would still be your only defense.
Until they add another form of defense or remove her ability to go through things, she won't be fun to play against. I used to only play Nurse for the first several months that I had the game, but I've realized that the game would just be better without her. I want both sides to have fun.
By survivors running at the killer as soon as they know who it is, getting downed and hooked, then killing themselves on hook - wouldn’t give a killer a higher kill rate.
Knowing you ‘look at’ killers who statistically are ‘over performing’ - this is a clear way to protest certain killers by artificially making them ‘look’ like they are over performing in kill rate, when in actuality players aren’t even trying to play against them.
A team can easily abuse this and even if a solo survivor does this, it will almost guarantee a 3 or 4 kill match if they do it early enough in the match.
Im desperate to hear dev comments on this as it seems like an obvious loophole to be abused with no real way to tell from statistics.
Have you guys thought about this?
That is correct, I mistakenly read the percentages for the safest maps incorrectly.
As for Haddonfield, the problems around the map extend outside of Balanced Landing, BL just unlocked the maps full potential for survivors.
I have a question for OP; what percent killrate would you consider to be viable if you are basing viability on how the community performs with them in red ranks?
Love how the dev simply responded you with like 3 paragraphs that basically repeated the same thing over and over again "too many factors" and it's even worse when they didn't even give a proper answer to everything you asked for, more or so, sounded like they wanted to ignore it and not deal with it.
You wonder why most people on this forum think BHVR is so shady at times? And why we lost half of our trust with you guys?
Because you guys don't fully answer anyone
Because you guys don't give proper answers
Because half of the time when something is going wrong you guys are very vague about it
Don't give us proper information
Don't show us any statistics to see ourselves so we could tell whether a killer is "overperforming" with other factors
Easy to make a meme out of "pretty good job so far" "soon" and now "overperforming" so we can't take all of you seriously
Haven't talk about any recent optimization for PC OR even for console and it's been getting worse for console.
Think that PTB is "proper" information to get to see if a killer/perk needs buffs or nerfs, especially on your case since of how your PTB works.
Nerf or buff things out of nowhere when no one asked for it.
And simply, most of us and me included don't see you guys as real developers. You just don't act like one (yes developers can fool around here and there but there is a balance), don't handle thing like one etc etc
@Venom368 Yeah I got you, what I'm referring to is that others find her boring to play against now as well since she is not much a challenge after the nerf. There are multiple survivor mains like this one for example: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/830387#Comment_830387
I may sound biased as I mained base kit nurse etc but I'm playing mainly survivor this season (rank 1 last season) and find the new nurse boring to play against as well since she's so easy to juke now, it's not much of a mind-game anymore which takes away the fun from her as she used to be a "high skilled killer" (without the broken add ons)
I have to disagree with you. If you think about the map a bit, there are just very few loops that are not on a second floor. Probably 80%+ are with stagger. That is really bad. You just don't realise how bad is a staggered jump when that is the majority of the loops
I agree that it is an unfair advantage. But, I think it is an inherent flaw with the game and there is nothing that can reasonably be done about it.
The only possible way to balance the existing issue would be to enable comms in game for all survivors. That's the only way. And that would require rebalancing everything about the game. It would be far too much to reasonably change. It would be a completely different game.
I can't think of any other change that could be made that wouldn't make you feel disadvantaged for playing SWF. Any other change would be subjective.
I honestly don't know. For me, "viability" means "able to win", which means a killer should be able to 3-4K consistently in the hands of a good killer.
It's funny you say there is nothing that can be done to fix the flaw, when the flaw was actually introduced due to review bombing :^)
So 75%+?
The devs said a long time ago that they want it to be around a 60% kill rate in red ranks. Idk if they still stick to that, but these stats seem to fit somewhat well with that.
50% is still the target, although we're not against it being a little higher if it's still fun.
In regards to the Nurse, she still has a 65% kill rate in red ranks. So if you're a skilled Nurse, these stats prove you'll still do well.
Face it, playing Nurse before the nerf was practically a free win. Now you actually have to work for it.
The reason hag is the least popular is because she requires thinking ahead, being skillful in reaction time and trap placement, and being very difficult to play if not used properly. If you're the kind of person who just mindlessly places traps and chase survivors you're going to do bad with her hence why her pick rate is so low because her play style is hard to grasp. Same with nurse she takes a HELL of a lot of skill now so really the only people who can 4k every game are the pros and they are very rare to come across. So while nurse does have some bad stats it does not reflect how a god nurse does because they 4k pretty much every game.
What do you mean by this? And why did you add a smiley face? We were having a civil discussion 😞
The entire Dead By Daylight team is going to get chewed out for letting Pig become too competent.
Wasn't he mentioned a lot of times on streams that he will be changed? All that talk about balance with addons?
That is in line with her killrate on the graph I was analyzing for this post. A 65% killrate means a 35% escape rate. That's below almost every killer in the game at red ranks save for Demogorgon and Clown.
I agree with everything you just said except for the use of the redundant phrase "hence why"
SWF was introduced after the game received a review bomb on steam from survivors demanding they add a way to play together.
The game was obviously designed for solo survivors in mind. I think an obvious extension was always going to be something like SWF, I just wish they had planned for this or since they didn't, would address it for the health of the game.
Hags difficulty is vastly overrated. She doesnt require mechanical skill, since you can skip that by spamming the teleport button. She WOULD be skillful if she had a small cooldown when you press the teleport button, since she would be reflexbased. But right now, instant teleports take no skill and guarantee a hit.
You learn Hag once, you perform well with her forever. She's very uninteractive overall. Trap the good spots, wait till they get triggered. Hang someone, watch the snowball, gg. As long as you dodge 4-swf flashlight squads, she has the easiest time 4k'ing at red ranks out of all killers for me.
I'm not surprised that rotten fields is a safest map.
Most killers don't have an actually counterplay to survivor just holding W. If survivor gets far enough he dissappears in the corn and that's it.
If he somehow stays in killers vision they just have to slowly catch up to them. Many other maps have certain structures which allow some killers to outdo survivors on them but not there.
Careful what you say or they will chop down more perks an more killer. Then all there will be is surv. Going into a match running from each other. Lol
I don't spam the tp button because i would break my controller so i do rely on my reactions but besides that i do see your point. Once you learn how to properly place traps it becomes second nature but knowing were to place them and what paths survivors take is where people struggle. I also often see hags who don't know how to manage their traps well or what they should do when everyone sets off the traps when she goes to hook someone. So while it may be easy to just set traps at pallets and vaults and get hits when they are activated, if that's all you're doing then survivors can just avoid the pallets near the gens you're protecting and run to other safe areas of the map. like i said its grasping her play style is what makes her a unpopular pick among killers.
Gotcha. That makes sense.
Another option I could see addressing the issue would be having an unranked mode. And you could play solo/SWF in that mode. In ranked you could only play solo.
The issue with that is rank really isn't important anyways. All it's used for is matchmaking. There's no leaderboards or anything like that. And there is too many aspects of the game that can be abused on both sides that would prevent any form of competitive experience from being enjoyable. I can see it being a cool idea if in ranked mode certain perks/items/add-ons were removed/restricted. But then again, I feel like that would just be forcing a game to be competitive that doesn't feel like it's meant to be competitive on that level.
Or maybe, introducing this restricted mode as a new mode with its own separate rankings or something while leaving the normal game how it is would be a solution. Call it Hardcore mode or something.
EDIT: I just made a post about this because it actually seems like a somewhat feasible way to address the SWF issue. Or at least have a more competitive mode in the game. https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/107317/hardcore-mode-addressing-swf-balance
I agree on that. She takes a different approach on the game, which needs experience with the game. So many hags trap the hook 7 times while camping. The hardest part about Hag is dealing with those escape routes to the safe areas of the map and not trapping pallets but those sneaky paths. It just feels like she has only one way to play against her and if one of the 4 survivors dont know how to do it, they will lose.
Survivors complain about him quite a bit, actually, now they're just too busy taking a dump on the nurse's grave, that's all.
Just search the forum for the keywords "hillbilly+op+no+skill".
With that said, he still gets looped, he still gets ran around the shack/the preschool/Myers' house, he still suffers from DS. And the new maps, wich are a clusterfuck of ultrasafe pallets, god windows, and general clutter that prevents him from using his mobility, are certainly of no help. He is not balanced. He is underpowered. If the survivors are bad, he wins. If the survivors are good, he gets rushed and looped, just like every other killer.
We will have to agree to disagree here. He is the most balanced killer in the game in my opinion. Yes he can be looped. But he also has tremendous snowball potential and map pressure. To say he only wins if the survivors are bad is just not true.
I find it really frustrating we cant get one straight answer on the nurse....why do you guys not want to talk about her..?
If i had to guess: Because nothing is wrong with her. Its the same 5 players making 90% of the nurse posts. The good nurses still 4k with her. Most streamers say she is still the strongest killer. If she was released today, she would be called op. Just because they dont have fun, doesnt mean we should buff the strongest killer. That nerf was waaaay overdue and they kept her core gameplay and muscle memory.
Hag is enjoyable at least for me because you have to think a head and don't need to chase as much. It's refreshing to play her since her play style is very unique compared to the average killer.
Pardon me. If she was the strongest killer then why is Freddy on top of the stats?
Streamers are survivor mains.
Nurse's winrate is dragged down by people learning to play her or just bad at her since she takes the most skill to play. Her kill rate was low before and she was definitely still the strongest killer in the game. She is still strong now, stats aren't everything for her.
😉
damn I didn't know every single streamer is a survivor man. I learned something about myself today.
Sorry but the same can be said about survivor. Just replace "Nurse" with "survivor "and "kill" with "escape."
Survivor isn't hard to play like Nurse is though. So sorry but no you can't say the same. A red rank Nurse can be new to her or bad at her. A red rank survivor cannot since all survivors are the same.
Sorry but no you can't say the same. Survivor is not as hard to play as Nurse is. A red rank Nurse can be new to her or bad at her. A red rank survivor cannot because All survivors play the same. If we could isolate good Nurse players then her stats might be more reliable.
Every killer at red is above 55% killrate? I'm impressed. Pretty good job so far. (My escape rate on rotten fields has to be like 20%, I hate that map so much)
Because Freddy has a lower skillfloor and Nurse has a high skillfloor.
Same reason why survivors have a low 30% escape rate at r1, even though good survivors mop the floor with good killers. The average gamer is pretty bad, so even if a characters potential is very high, making them toptier, the average stats for them look worse than others. Same as in other videogames: Highskill characters suck statistically
Nurse has been stated after the ptb to be harder to use than she was before. So it only makes sense that after a few changes that have been done to make her harder to use. You will expect the kill rate of hers to drop as shown in the graphs when comparing the old nurse to the new one. So I personally think it's self explanatory to think that once changes have been done to a killer (especially if it is a nerf), the outcome would be that the killer will be performing worst than she was before. So it's logical to wait for the second release to the data graph to come out before making an conclusion based on only one data. This just makes your opinion on the matter not reliable and may be seen as you being bias from your profile pic being the nurse.
"What is the reason behind Hag having an incredibly low pickrate. There are very few metrics that consider Hag to be a weak killer. The only logic behind her low pickrate is that people simply do not enjoy her playstyle for whatever reason. Is there any plan to make Hag a more fun killer to play as without necessarily increasing her strength?"
I think Hag isn't picked much because she is a very defensive style character, and generally speaking defensive tactics in games are less fun than offensive ones. All the top 5 killers are very offensive type of killers. Trapper is the only other defensive killer, however you have to take his pick rate with a grain of salt considering he is the cover child for the game. Plus the current Rift has challenges focus around Trapper, so that could be influencing his pick rate.
Regarding Nurse, even though she is statistically a weak killer doesn't mean she is actually a weak killer. Her potential is extremely high, but so is the skill required to play her. Since she is so mechanically different from other killers you need to consider this stuff. Stats alone don't paint the full picture.
I think Demo has a low pick rate/kill rate because he is the newest killer. They say these stats are from the last 3 months, and his DLC is only 2 months old. I've played less than 10 games in this time against Demo. I would disregard any of his stats completely for this reason. You should give at least 6 months for players to really work out the best way to play him AND for them to level him up enough to be able to truly experiment with builds.
GF is probably higher pick rate than it shows. His pick rate only recently start to shoot up. I literally see GF every other game now at red ranks, sometimes even like 5 in a row. Wasn't the case 2 months ago.
Even though Clown is statistically the weakest killer, he still has a kill rate over 60% (or just on it, hard to tell exactly). That means, on average, he still walks out of a trial with at least 2 kills. By contrast Freddy, with a kill rate over 75%, will only manage 1 more kill on average. Pretty small difference if you ask me. Clown and above are still entirely viable at red ranks if we consider the fact that "balance" according to the devs is 2 kills 2 escapes. If you want a 4k, yea you can argue he isn't viable, but that's honestly an unrealistic goal anyway.
I expect Haddonfield's escape rate to change little after the Balanced Landing change. The house loops can still be run without BL, just only 2 or 3 times instead of 4 or 5. There are still tons of safe pallet loops on the map. It is still super easy to hide from the killer or split the map. It will still be the third safest map for survivors, albeit only a fraction less safe.
Sorry for double post:
Also this regarding Nurse's stats: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/866458#Comment_866458
Basically the stats include all platforms, and Nurse on console is a different beast. Still potentially the best killer in the game, but WAY harder to achieve that ideal. Most Nurse's are bad, sorry to say. Only a handful, literally, have the ability to play at red ranks and dominate (on Xbox at least). No joke, I could name them all in one breathe (and I know them all too).
Only it didnt..and looking at the stats..her playrate dropped like a stone...and the only people I've seen say shes ok are 0eopke whom never play her or are known to dislike her..so no..shes not fine
Hag has a great playstyle, but people like m1 killers that require less thought and more reaction like a fps.