“Fun” is not a valid talking point for balance
Lately, I have been seeing many posters and streamers talking about various aspects of DBD (spirit, NOED) as not being fun. This usually leads to people asking for nerfs.
The problem is that fun is way too subjective. I, as killer, do not have “fun” getting looped and genrushed etc... but I’m not going to ask for nerfs based on that. Rarely do people have fun when they lose, which means salt should probably be disregarded and not used as feedback. Just a thought.
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I’m glad to see that i’m not the only one who is befuddled. Like literally every video game, from COD to Mortal Kombat, requires you to guess to some extent. Hell, even card games and chess require you to make reads.
There are SOME guessing games m1 killers can engage in, especially at unsafe loops. Maps like hawkins and badham use more unsafe pallets than other maps. Spirit just allows you to always be able to guess.
So, you were claiming it to not be a guessing game, now you agree it is, you can dodge a Huntress hatchet very easily, you can tell when a killer hides their red stain most of the time so it is not as much of a guessing game as you say other killers are. When 86% (Scott’s poll) and devs claiming she ‘overperforms’, you are refusing blatant facts at this point. I’m more of a killer main before you start yelling ‘SURVIVOR MAIN’ and Spirit is unhealthy, much like gen rush, keys, moris and insta downs.
From reading each of your responses it is clear that you arent even willing to accept another point of view because you still think that guessing is counterplay. It is not. Not. Not. I repeat...NOT counterplay. Go ahead, convince me guessing is counterplay. I’m willing to listen and change my pov.
So if it’s not a guess, what is it then? Should it be linear, unmindgameable loops? It sounds like most people arguing here just want a bulletproof option that the killer can’t do anything about. Not a single person in this thread has been able to answer this question. Guessing is one of the purest forms of pvp. Everything else is pretty much just handholding or crap designed to help bad players feel powerful.
Pallet looping was designed by survivors and then never changed. I don't think the devs expected it at all.
People claim looping was unintended but i kinda dont believe that look at how pallets were back in 2016 and then try to argue looping was unintended. but either way its how the game is now if you dont like it i hear minecraft is popping off.
Okay, it's still a correct statement. I don't care that looping exists.
I care that running from safe pallet to safe pallet is considered skillful...it's not. It's so damn easy for me to keep a killer in a chase while my team genrushes.
If you are running from safe pallet to safe pallet you must get the game a ton just saying.
Also that sounds like the killer failed to break chase.
Also if the devs didnt expect it then explain how tiles were designed in 2016 you can look at them and tell they wanted looping to be a thing double pallet jungle gyms also kinda proves that point exactly.
I don’t understand this post or why it’s upvoted so much.
Games that are balanced are fun. How can you refute that?
If you keep this game balanced it will remain fun. If you can improve the balance it will me more fun for more people. If you don’t improve balance where possible, it will be less fun.
Plenty of legitimate criticism that is explained way beyond ‘it’s not fun’ has been provided for Spirit and generator speed. Anyone agreeing with this post isn’t actually paying attention to the discussions.
Actual discussion: I can’t impose loops on Spirit when she phases, therefore she is broken. I have to guess, like with almost every other game known to man.
On a more serious note, a game’s balance is subjective. Plenty of survivors on this forum would be A okay with legitimate infinites being in the game because they find them “fun”. Why is asking people to learn so taboo?
It's pretty obvious that Peanits plays and knows the game well. Every time somebody disagrees with you, it's not necessary to question their DBD "credentials."
Again, a lot of people are (in theory anyways) trying to bring up non-balance issues.
Just because something isn't overpowered doesn't mean the discussion is over.
I'm obviously not advocating for Spirit nerfs. But the fundamental idea of changing something for reasons beyond balance is completely valid. Not every issue a game can have is a balance issue and those other issues still need to be addressed somehow.
Okay but killing survivors faster ie tunneling is frowned on explain
I mean anything can be frowned on but thats not the argument reread what that comment was replying to and you will understand the context.
The same can be said about “oppressive”not being a valid talking point for balance.
Just because a killer or perk is annoying doesn’t make it OP and doesn’t justify them not be viable. Looking at Doctor and Leatherface. 👀
At least Doctor is getting some love soon.
There are legitimate balance issues on both sides. Typically, unfair setups tend to be unfun.
It's important to keep that in mind. Just because someone says something is unfun doesn't mean they're complaining without just cause.
I feel most alive when rapidly approaching my death!
“Last One Down and a Boom Boom!”
I asked you before, if it's an actual guess, why does she have collision with survivors? That's not a guess at all, the game tells you when you found someone. If it's a guess, why can she hear injured noises? Listening isn't a guess. Why does she have so much information on what survivors are doing but survivors don't have anything?
(I know you're joking, I just wanna reply to this XD)
Then stop complaining about Spirit and make a build that beats a majority of the cast. 1/19 games lost.
"But I face Spirit all the time!"
Then change your build.
"....But the 19 othe-"
AAAAGGGHHHHH
I know I love me some Iron Will and Urban Evasion.
Not trying to be blunt or rude, but you do understand that if shes feels it so do the survivors? I mean, imagine using it to find her and slam her with a pallet, or find her and body block for a friend, it gives both sides the same information "their right next to me".
Collision is good for her, but it mostly occurs out in the open, which other killers will also be able to down. It's difficult to tell and react within enclosures if you are colliding with objects or people, so I don't think it's that insane.Grunts still don't tell you what side of the window/pallet the survivors are on
Bodyblocking for a teammate isn't really useful unless it's the endgame. When you are out in the open with no pallets, you can't avoid bumping into something you can't see and it's a free hit for the spirit. It's a lot more useful for the spirit than it is for survivors. When you do collide with her at the pallet, she can still hit you if she is quick enough before you drop the pallet.
Umm, what? It is super easy to tell if you are colliding with people or objects.
Grunts can tell you which side the survivors are on if your volume is high enough.
The point is that, it's like 60% reacting to survivors feedback for the spirit and the guessing part is small but survivors literally have no feedback so it is pure, random guessing games for the most part.
It is, but it doesn't have to be.
I'd personally prefer Deathgarden style parkour/jukes being the norm, rather than "drop pallet, force pallet break, make it to another pallet within the 18.8 second window before the killer catches up"
Remember that the legion was shipped terribly because whatever group of people playing and testing the killer with some survivors said it was "Fun". But you know me personally I'm having fun until I start getting tunneled, play a spirit, play a clown, get hit through vaults after moving away from them or get the try hard people that have fun winning by any means or just wanna ruin somebody's time playing. As killer I'm usually having fun regardless win or lose but as survivor so many things can make this game feel like a huge pile of ######### waiting to ruin my morning cheerios.
Personally I don't want "strong killers" because when we get them it seems like thats all people want to play because its easiest and it's annoying going up against the same 1-3 killers in higher ranks. (Purple and red) the occasional huntress or hag is beautiful to me. Especially when they know what they're doing and can win or come close to a 4k. Its more fun for me to play a killer I like and figure out a set of perks that works for me on the killer I like playing (Huntress, Freddy Legion Demogorgon) than to go play spirit and just win because she's strong and its easy. It's hardly any skill and you can't claim to anyone that she's a skill killer when you can outplay someone just by standing still.
"Competitives" need to find a new hobby.
The killer/survivor chase interaction is the core game play mechanic. Compared to every other killer in the game, Spirit is an extreme outlier in terms of how this core game play mechanic plays out. How is pointing that out so taboo?
Balance is not completely subjective. A lot of PVP games are objectively balanced. They give each player access to the exact same tool set; CS, chess. Beyond that, you can actually apply numbers like kills/game or chase time to balance discussions in DBD. Fun is subjective. Balance may be to a point, but it can certainly be discussed with some objective information.
@Peanits you are killing it :D nice pictures, well explained!
Throwin some cova for ma brothas.
Life isn't fun, plz nerf
That's my entire point to it. Most killers don't have specific counters necessary so they just run the second chance / chase strengtheners to make them even weaker. Dislike facing hags? urban evasion. trappers (and bonus on hag as well)? small game. Spirit? Iron Will + 1 other bonus one to help juking. Leaves you room for your DS or BT or dead hard of your choosing
This is gonna cause a ######### storm but here goes.
''Fun" shoul be the main taken into account for both sides. Not ''Is it strong?" ''Will it win them the game?" ''Will this etc?"
That's the reason DCs are at an all time high for Dead by Daylight. Back when the game was relatively coming into it's stride with Doctor, Huntress, etc releases? The complaints were prominently about Nurse on the survivor side and escape and exhaustion perks on killer side.
Both have been nerfed touched now, so you think both sides would stop dcing right?
Here's my theory. DCs are at an all time high for both sides because:
I could keep going but really the DC problem boils down to nothing more than devs didn't balance the game right and still aren't on the right track even if they think so.
The game has an identity crisis all over it currently. It can't decide through it's add ons and powers and perks if it wants to be a casual experience or a competitive one. It needs to be balanced one way or another. Not somewhere in the middle.
As it stands DbD is dangerously close to losing it's ''fun" appeal for many hence why so many DCes and complaints, etc.
The bad thing? I don't even know how they fix it.
TO ALL PEOPLE THAT THINK SPIRIT IS OK IN HER CURRENT STATE
Imagine that the roles are reversed, when a survivor activates their power every 15 seconds they can go invisible, leave no way of tracking but know exactly where you (the killer) is because of sound, grass, corn etc. Now imagine if this happened at every loop, for every survivor. You wouldn’t want to play. Now imagine this happened more often in red ranks, every few games, or multiple consecutive games in a row. You wouldn’t like GUESSING where the survs go every chase, would you? Now that you have read this, please tell me how, as killer, you would counter the survivors?
Now switch the roles back.