xEa
xEa
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@Akumakaji said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3652022#Comment_3652022
That's true, a strong perk shouldn't automatically win you the game, which is ny point. The gen block of Grim Embrace is useless, if you can't capitalise on it, and that's directly linked to the survivors in question behaviour. If they lay low and hide efficiently and effectively, it comes down to a game of luck (and a little bit of skill and experience) to find anyone, unless you want to camp out that last survivor you put on he hook and only have to defend then for 15s beyond the 45 Grim Embrace timer. You can do that, but it's not very fun for anyone, killer included.
Which is why I love making room for Spies in the Shadow, my guilty pleasure info perk of choice that literally flies under the radar of most players and gets a bad rep. Its like having eyes in the back of your head and helps immensely when survivors lay low and play super stealthy, just barely out of sight.
BTW it's my time playing as a survivor that thought me how often the killer is right on top of a sneaky survivor bit just barely miss them, it's part of the games design with 1st vs 3rd person POV and all that. Much hot air about nothing, but what I wanna say is this:
Tl,dr Grim Embraces power is directly linked to the killers ability to pressure survivors during its uptime, so try to dedicate one slot to perks that help in that regard.
Tl,dr Grim Embraces power is directly linked to the killers ability to pressure survivors during its uptime, so try to dedicate one slot to perks that help in that regard.
For sure you are right with that. That is why i personally think UW pairs extremly well with GE / DMS.
@GroßusSchmiedus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3652022#Comment_3652022
I agree that you got a skill issue if you can't differentiate between gen regression and block.
Cute.
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Not blaming the Blight for performing well, neither the survivors for playing poorly, but it is what it is: The MMR does not work in a correct way.
I said it multible times but the general idea of escaping or killing people is not necessary a good indicator for playing good or bad. Many hook stages, long chases by a survivr or simply efficency during chase have way more impact and more to tell about someones skill then escaping.
The numbers of times where the worst survivor on the other team escaped is inarguably higher then their best player, just from my personal experience.
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The main reason is the undenyable fact, that Freddy has a longer lunge attack then other killers. 😅
Jokes aside, i just think he is not that bad of a killer, especially in low and mid MMR. On top of that, survivors are not used to him as much anymore, so they wont perform that well. On the other side, the remaining Freddy mains are probably pretty experienced and confident that they hold on to a killer that is not S Tier caliber.
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@bazarama said:
If you face a bully squad that is toxic in that they have no intention of doing gens then the last thing you want to do is play into their hands.
Don't dc and incur a penalty just face a wall and wait for the next game.
Nothing frustrates a toxic bully squad more than not being able to bully a new or inexperienced killer.
Do something else and they'll soon get bored and finish the game.
Good survivors you can learn from but until you're experienced don't entertain these pathetic childish toxic survivors.
Good luck
I disagree.
Use those Bully squads for practice instead. Who cares if they are annoying and constantly go for flashlight and pallet saves? There is nothing better for new killer to learn propper chase and survivor behaviour then those type of games. Embrace it.
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@GroßusSchmiedus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3651988#Comment_3651988
It is relevant.
Gen regression forces survivors to hold M1 at a generator, which means they have to physically be near it making them easier to find and apply pressure and can't do other things like heal. Gen blocking does not and its a huge deal.
Agree to disagree. Sounds like skill issue tbh.
@Ariel_Starshine said:
I was wondering why generators are basically blocked for forever in my games. I just looked up what GE and DMS do. That's why I can never finish repairing a generator.
Ugh, I may as well switch to a gen rush build then. Feels bad when someone occupies the killer for so long and I'm either standing there or running around because a buncha generators are blocked.
I also am very, very good at hiding from the killer and I notice lately they waste SO much time looking for me, and no wonder, they want that 4th token. Now that I know this I'll up my stealth even more I guess.
That is the issue. Even tho bringen the best gen rush build and toolboxes, this still wont compensate for the slowdown, DMS & GE provides for killer.
@Akumakaji said:
Grim Embrace really profits from some detection perks, but it can't be Nowhere to Hide, as you can't kick blocked gens.
Slowdown is meaningless if you can't transform it into pressure. I have entire Grim Embrace lol 4s run out without me being able to find a survivor and the hook long cold when I returned to it (didn't want to camp). This way it just wasted everyone's time, as no one could progress the game ... well, not true, the survivors did heal, so they came better out of the forced break then they entered it, e en though they couldn't work on gens.
This makes Grim Embrace much much healthier than Eruption during its haydas
The perk should not automatically win the game, but what it provides is a lot, much more then other killer perks at the moment. If for whatever reason killers cant transform slowdown into pressure, then this is not an issue with the perk, very clearly.
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@GroßusSchmiedus said:
Stop comparing Grim Embrace with perks like Pop or Pain Resonance.
Regression perks force survivors to spend more time on gens, holding M1.
Grim Embrace blocks generators completely but doesn't force survivors to hold M1 longer in total, they can heal, do totems or whatever, its a break.
If anything, Grim Embrace should be compared with No Way Out that blocks progress for even longer for essentially doing the same thing. I see no reason why Grim Embrace by itself can be considered OP when No Way Out activates for longer period during the time that the anti-camp mechanic is disabled. Its clearly the weaker out of those 2.
Its as good of a comparison as with any other slowdown perk. It slows down the game - and it is completly irrelevant in what way. All the diference are simply psychological nature. DBD is a race against time, obviously for both sides. How you gain more time is not relevant, at least not if we compare.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3651729#Comment_3651729
What we're believing is that you believe that the blocked gens are better than the regression and that is the reason you think Grim Embrace is overpowered. We'd argue that the regression is better, but if we keep at it we'd both deviate from the topic by arguing which is better.
No, i dont think either one is better. But i think 228 seconds of potential slowdown (GE without DMS) is better then 90 seconds (PR)
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No words needed.
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@Xernoton said:
There have been a lot of debates over the years how to help solo queue survivors and bring them closer to a SWF. While the gap can never be fully bridged it can definitely be mitigated. One option for that is a voice chat. However voice chats can easily have the opposite effect and make solo queue even worse.
Nobody likes listening to their team mates ranting about whatever it is that got them so upset and telling everyone of the things they'd like to do to your or your opponent's family. There are other reasons why a voice chat wouldn't be ideal but that's not what I want to focus on.
Instead I would explore a different option. A chat wheel. For anyone who doesn't know, a chat wheel is typically a set of commands that can be used to communicate with team mates. The execution isn't quite so straight forward though, which is why I would like to hear everyone's opinions what commands would be useful and how a chat wheel should work.
For example, the chat wheel could feature a set of emotes with different meanings like in DBD Mobile. Another option is for it is to work within a certain range (or map wide) and give either a small sign to your team mates or a simple sentence (no more than 5 words because it's too long to read otherwise).
A list of commands I personally would like to see:
- "Come with me." Straight forward and we even have an emote that implies this.
- "I need a heal." Again straight forward and easy to do. It could be displayed as a small med kit icon next to your character on your team mate's HUD, as an animation or as a short text.
- "Danger!" It could be used in different ways. To warn your team mates, that you saw the killer, that there is a dead zone or even to warn them of traps / drones.
- "Go away." We all know that it's best to spread out but sometimes you'll have a team mate that really wants to spend some quality time with you on a gen. With this you could tell them, that you are opposed to that idea.
- "Stop that!" Solo queue survivors are pretty special. Sometimes you have the god Nea in your team that loops the killer for 20 gens without ever dropping a pallet and sometimes you have a Claudette, that uses Self-Care right next to you.
What other commands would you like to see and how would you implement them (text, emote, symbol)?
First i have to ask this question (again) for clarification. This is not a map wide communication, right?
If it is, i am strictly against that, since it would allow them to see their positions all the time. And it would kill the vibe of DBD.
If it is not, i dont see the value of it.
The HUD already shows everything survivors actually need to know. And if a survivor is close by, it is all dead obvious what the other survivor wants, without any form of communication. Want heal? Crouch next to the survivor. Want them to rescure, point at the hook. Want to come with you? Wave your hand. Killer is stealthy sneaking on you and teammate is not aware? Point with finger in that direction. Even running away suddenly is suspicous enough already to tell that the killer is coming.
I can not imagine a single situation where this might be more then a few extre buttons, sorry. The problem is not that people dont understand whats going on, but rather they dont care.
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@ChaosWam said:
Stigma from her release, her old power being abused by 3-gen chess merchants, and survivors not knowing about changes made.
Also, I wish her lore was as 'complicated' and not just... Bad.
I have not played during that Chess merchant time and i only know the current version - and i still dislike everything about her. It has most likely nothing to do with trauma, her design is just incredibly bad.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3651712#Comment_3651712
We're not talking about combining it with pop though, this is wholly (however you spell that word) about grim embrace alone (while technically comparing it to pain res or other regression/stall alone). With regression perks its more likely that gen gets finished alot later though rather than with blocking (depending on the regression), especially when that blocking is 12 seconds. The 40 seconds would be better but it requires you to down and hook everyone.
I was just using this as an example.
The bottom line is. If a generator is loosing 25% of progress or cant be repaired for the equal duration makes it more or less the same. Re-repairing or waiting out the block is no difference in the sense of progression.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3651581#Comment_3651581
In our simple mind no progress gain (blocked) means a gen thats near complete will most likely be completed as soon as whatever is blocking it finishes while the progress lost (regressed) will actually need to be re-done and has a higher chance of not being finished. Blocking gens is like a dam effect. Lets say a gens at 95 percent and close by the killer. If blocked and the killer chases the survivors off, that gens gona still be at 95 meaning someone can easily swoop in and pop. If regressed then the gen will be at whatever hit it while you chase them off meaning more time bought. Depending on the situation one could be better than the other but this is how we see it.
Well, the effect is still more or less the same. The gen with PR will loose 25% and wont be poped instantly. With GE, it is on a single target a little bit less, but the effect stays the same. It will be repaired later. I think it is only psychological.
The kicker is, if we dont care if a gen gets completed or not, it will get repaired shortly after GE / PR. If we care to defend that generator, we can make our way towards the gen and kick it with pop or just regulary and hunt survivors in that area.
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I am against this idea. Keys used to be unfair and i am happy they got nerfed. This would make them insanly strong again.
The hatch has its rightful purpose, but not like that.
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@humanbeing1704 said:
What we need for 2024 is for overwhelming presence to be reworked into a s tier perk that’s overpowered
you can do it behaviour
At least then the name would fit 😂
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#1 Give us the option to have old movement animation
#2 Give us the option to disable the hook blurness (the strange red cycle when a survivor gets hooked)
#3 Change survivor auras so they wont blend in with generators.
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Like others already said, there are many reasons why she is universally detested. She is basically the worst of everything. Even her chase music (while typically excellent) is not very good.
She really feels like a product of wasted parts BHVR fished out of the developer dumpster and mashed it into one killer.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3651522#Comment_3651522
Theres a flaw with the comparison as pain res regresses the generator, meaning the work needs to be re-done on that gen. Grim embrace blocks gens, they will not progress but also won't regress meaning if the survivor waits out the timer, which is practical enough baring the 4th proc, they can hop back on their gen and possibly pop it assuming the killer doesn't come. In addition the killer cant practically control grim embrace unlike pain res [you can usually choose to save a pain res token by picking a non scurge hook, not a grim embrace charge unless you slug or cage them].
In favor of the comparison though, that like pain res it requires different hooks to proc meaning like pain res survivors should know when its coming assuming their paying attention (or looking at the hud). They can play around it and can do things other than gens for those seconds its active such as go for the rescue, heal, chests, and totems. This adds a variable in the practical time its stalling like pain res [added bonus of making math worth less our childhood dream comes true]. Also like pain res, the ones not hooked yet can play more careful {hopefully still being practical though} to stall it procing [so used to hold w at a glance].
Theres a flaw with the comparison as pain res regresses the generator, meaning the work needs to be re-done on that gen. Grim embrace blocks gens, they will not progress but also won't regress meaning if the survivor waits out the timer, which is practical enough baring the 4th proc, they can hop back on their gen and possibly pop it assuming the killer doesn't come. In addition the killer cant practically control grim embrace unlike pain res [you can usually choose to save a pain res token by picking a non scurge hook, not a grim embrace charge unless you slug or cage them].
Please explain, whats the difference between no progress gain and progress loss? Besides maybe the psychological factor.
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@appleas said:
Devs will probably see how often this combo is utilized and the game outcomes before balancing accordingly.
I played 6 games of survivor today and I have only seen Grim Embrace/DMS run in different games but not together in any game so I can't judge if this combo is really that oppressive
@GroßusSchmiedus said:
Grim Embrace by itself is fine, its the DMS combo that may push it over the edge a bit. But strangely i have only seen it like 2-3 times in total.
You are very lucky then (or me being unlucky?). This combo is more or less in half of my games.
@Akumakaji said:
And it's not stronger then a well placed pop or PainRes, as always the unrestricted comboing of this effects causes some issues.
I think the best way would be to introduce a couple of new perk classes (Gen regression, Gen repair, maybe Aura reading if it must be done) and limit builds to two perks per class. Maybe perks like Lethal Pursuer could raise the limit by plus 1 or don't count themselves, because of their supportive nature.
Unrestrained builds has been a staple in DBD for many years but it's causing issues because of the vast number of perks, killers and combinations. Like when Awakened Awareness was nerfed because of Nurse, imagine if Nurse just couldn't equip it etc.
It is stronger then the best pop you can have. I will come to that later.
@Nick said:
The problem is it works best on the killers with high mobility. Which are usually the stronger killers anyways. Nurse, Blight, Billy, Spirit, Wesker, Oni. They all profit the most from the Pain Res, DMS and Grim combo
Exactly. It makes powerful killers even more powerful.
@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/405491/grim-embrace
Can you please explain in-depth as to why you think Grim Embrace, by itself no combos, is "clearly way to powerful"?
I will try my best to explain why i think it is already alone a bit to powerful, even without the obvious combo potential.
Lets compare it with other very strong slowdown perks, and the best to compare is probably Pain Res, another very good slow down perk (we agree on that, i assume) which also works with tokens BUT with the essential condition, that it has to be pain res hooks. I have games as killer where i cant get much value out of this because hooks are not reachable. Not with Grim Embrace. It works all the time, no matter which hook.
The value of Pain res is in the best case 25% of a single generator. In total, we are talking about 100%, a ful generator, which is about the equivalent of 90 seconds of repair time. Now lets look at Grim Embrace potential. 3 hooks x 3 survivors x 12 seconds are already 108 seconds of repair time. Add the final hook stage on the 4th survivor, another 40x3, we come to 228 seconds of repair time.
I think i can stop here, since it is undeniable that almost 4 minutes of no gen progress is better then 1,5 half minute of no gen progress.
Technically, Grim is even better then Corrupt, if it would block all generators for the full duration.
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The "Help me" part before charging is actually pretty scary. Very promising chapter 😍
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@Peanits are hatch escapes also part of the survivor escape rate or do they not count?
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What i read from this: Survivor escape rate is very low across the board, but even lower for solo players.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3650005#Comment_3650005
So the majority of killers are losing their matches, yikes lol. 3k is a win.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3650029#Comment_3650029
75% is a killer win. I'd say them losing the majority of their matches on average would suck as a killer. 62.5% kill rate is the halfway mark between a 2k and a 3k (where 3k is a win ie halfway between 50% and 75%). That would put killers at winning half their matches.
Yes sir, we need 75% killrate because then killers are 3king, only then. Otherweise, 3K outcome is impossible, since in our world, average does not exist. And a 3K is a win, and a 2K is a loss, even tho there are 5 possible outcomes of a match. A draw does not exist.
Also, survivors can have a 25% escape rate, since 1 survivor is escaping which means the survivors won.
Or not?
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When we go through those "favourite" killers, killer mains should rethink their claim, survivors want easy games. Most beloved killers are actually S-A tier.
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@HerInfernalMajesty said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3649049#Comment_3649049
I see. Thank you for replying.
I personally have different thoughts but I respect yours.
For me, it’s hard to use gameplay style to determine what is and isn’t adequate since the MMR will eventually put you as the Killer into a position where your play style is good enough. Again not to disprove your experiences, I am just of a different mind.
When it comes to 2nd hook vs first kill my reasoning is that if Survivors start with a penalty to repair speed; be it 25% or even as low as 5%, if all four are alive most of the match because the Killer is going for the 8 hook then the penalty should be doing its job and they should still make adequate progress.
I see however where you are going with the 2nd hook idea. First, is it the 2nd hook of the game? Or is it the first 2nd hook for a Survivor? Let me know where I get it wrong.
If you mean a Survivor’s second hook: All Survivors start with a penalty to gen speed. Once one Survivor reaches their second hook, then the game goes back to normal dbd rates. Once someone is killed then the repair speed goes up. So the best way for the Killer to get value out of this is to hook everyone once then start another round of hooks until 8 hooks are achieved then go for kills.
If you mean the 2nd hook of the match: The Killer has a small window of slower gen speeds. If the Killer double hooks one Survivor then they eliminate the penalty, it goes back to normal dbd rates. The Killer is then one hook away from making gen speeds faster. If the Killer hooks two different Survivors then the game goes back to normal dbd rates. And the Killer can now spread hooks making use of their early time given from the penalty. Did I get that right?
Thank you again graciously for taking the time to flesh this idea out.
When it comes to 2nd hook vs first kill my reasoning is that if Survivors start with a penalty to repair speed; be it 25% or even as low as 5%, if all four are alive most of the match because the Killer is going for the 8 hook then the penalty should be doing its job and they should still make adequate progress.
I mean, like i said before, it depends a lot on how much of a penalty we are talking here. Lets say we use penalty before someone is killed off, it would like like this: 25% would be way to much, survivor wont stand a chance. 5%? Not enough penalty to shake up the meta. 10% probably a decent amount.
I see however where you are going with the 2nd hook idea. First, is it the 2nd hook of the game? Or is it the first 2nd hook for a Survivor? Let me know where I get it wrong.
Second hook on the same survivor.
If you mean a Survivor’s second hook: All Survivors start with a penalty to gen speed. Once one Survivor reaches their second hook, then the game goes back to normal dbd rates. Once someone is killed then the repair speed goes up. So the best way for the Killer to get value out of this is to hook everyone once then start another round of hooks until 8 hooks are achieved then go for kills.
Kinda like that. At least this would be encouraging killer to go out of their way and not tunnel.
I guess both versions are a (in my opinion) a decent step into the right direction. Early game genrush is annoying for killer, getting tunneled is annoying for survivors. I dont see a better option then evening out the game a little bit for both sides while also fixing tunneling. some argue that killers will still tunnel, but then they will simply loose. And i also argue back, that tunneling is done by people who want to win, so they use the optimal strategy.
Last but not least, the only real issue i see with both versions is that slugging will become more popular.
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@HerInfernalMajesty said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3648409#Comment_3648409
I keep trying to understand why would the penalty be removed at the 2nd hook when there would still be four survivors left? Why not once one is eliminated?
For ballance reasons.
Lets assume there is a 25% penalty before one person is dead, this would make it almost impossible for survivors to win. Tunneling is not the only viable strategy, in fact i win most of my games with hooking survivors and then pressure gens.
AKA creating the cycle where only 1 survivor is usually on a gen while the others are either on the hook, rescuing or getting chased.
If i have to go with my gut feeling, it has to be either no penalty or slight buff for survivors once 2nd hook stage is in play.
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There is no absolute number 1 for me, so i name a few that i love very much.
Bubba
Billy
Blight
Wesker
Huntress
Demogorgon
Oni
All those killers are very challanging in chase, but also very exciting and rewarding.
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@HerInfernalMajesty said:
Let’s be honest, once there are only two Survivors left in a trial the match is mostly over. It creates a really awkward situation for both players. Usually I will find the other Survivor and give them whatever item I have, point to the exit gate, and then go and raise hell around the level making noise so I can get the Killer’s attention and give my teammate a chance to survive.
Obviously this isn’t usually how it plays out when two people are left. Sometimes one betrays the other, sometimes they hold the game hostage and sometimes they just give up.
Wouldn’t it be nice if no matter how many people are left in the trial, you still have a chance of completing generators?
I really think that generator repair speeds should speed up every time someone is killed. This gives hope to the people that are left as well as maybe helps fix tunneling a little bit so that Killers who want a longer game can have one if they spread the “love” around.
Of course if it is too powerful tweaks would have to be made like making the base time repair speed take longer when there are four Survivors. What are your thoughts on this?
I give credit to @xEa for helping spark this idea. Their idea was similar but instead of kills it is hooks. The only reason I deviate from hooks is because it would feel awful to get 8 hooks and gen speeds are too fast. I prefer the speed up to revolve around kills that way there is still hope for even two Survivors left.
Thank you for the credit.
There is one missunderstanding with my original idea
The only reason I deviate from hooks is because it would feel awful to get 8 hooks and gen speeds are too fast.
Not quite. The repairspeed would not be faster after 8 hooks (if even by maybe 5%), it would only disable the penalty of repair speed.
My idea was basically the same with some ballance tweaks and in my opinion the only way a system like this could work. Otherwise it would be to oppresive for killer.
Like i mentioned in the thread, survviors have to start with a repair speed penalty, which gets removed after a survivor is hooked a second time. I think this is absolutly essential.
Eventually, when a survivor is killed off, repair speed has to increase tremendously.
The game would still be very even, but it basically forces killer to spread hooks. Tunneling and killing off a survivor would not be nearly as effectiv as it is right now.
On the other side, there is no early game gen rush, so the killer is in no stress at all. They are actually dictating in which scenario they want to live in. Tunnel and get gensrushed in mid/late game or spread hooks and dont tunnel.
Like some people mentioned (for example @Xernoton ) it has some potential issues. For example slugging will become more popular. But to be fair, slugging is not nearly as effective as tunneling, but when survivors are having the penaltiy, it might become very oppressive indeed. Hard to tell how ballanced this would be, but it would definitly lead to slug meta and eventally slug perks getting nerfed.
IF we follow the idea of a repair speed boost ONLY after one survivor is killed, it hast to be a minor boost. For example 5% penalty before first survivor is dead and increased repair speed by 5% after the first one is killer.
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@ImWinston said:
Taking Steam data, the player base continues to decline. I know Steam doesn't count consoles and I'm not saying dbd is dying. But why?
The game is much more balanced now than 2-3 years ago, killers are very solid and viable (except for a few), there are many balanced maps (except for a few), many "broken" strategies no longer exist...
In theory the player base should increase and not decrease.
Some people will now say "there are no new game modes"... "lights out" had literally no effect on player numbers.
your opinions?
Personally i think there are many reasons. These are the most significant ones.
A) The game is 7-8 years old. Not many games can actually survive that long. Most games will become stale after such a long run.
B) DBD is running out of absolutly top licences. While Chucky and Alien were very good licenses, they could not create a hype like others did. Remember back when Stranger Things came to the game? Or Myers? Or Pyramid Head. Everybody was super excited. Maybe the marketing was not as good as it was, i can not tell.
C) The game is more ballanced in the SWF vs Killer department. The issue is, BHVR decided to make killer strong enough to compete with SWF to make killer more happy. But with that, they made survivors overall, especially solo players more unhappy.
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@Sngfun said:
The gamemode is literally designed to remove info from both sides, however recently unhooked survivors are the most reliable way of info in the mode. Let me explain:
The unhook notification is the only reliable location reveal of survivors's position.
If you go to the unhook notification, you won't find any scrath marks to follow a healthy survivor, but you will find pools of blood to find the injured survivor.
Injured survivors make sound. Healthy survivors don't.
Complain about the mode incentivizing tunneling, not killers tunneling.
Have you ever tried to move away from a hooked survivor? Once i hook them, i patrol gens. Especially in Lights Out, there is a very high chance you find one survivor on a near very quickly.
I agree tho that the Lights Out design is actually encouraging Tunneling. But it is also extremly easy to find survivors, since they are less aware when the killer is coming, therefore hiding or prerunning is not often if even the case.
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@concubined said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3648186#Comment_3648186
Well let me state the obvious bias here, I play spirit and sometimes even when I don’t tunnel I don’t like how survivors keep their silence part of the perk even after I downed the hooked like 2 other survivors and they have been working on gens healing ect. Bring me back to my old hell with old iron will.
Spirit is probably the killer that suffers the most from OTR. Fortunatly for you, this is not important.
A) Spirit is an S tier killer, that should easily still crush no matter what.
B) OTR gets used by less then 1 out of 10 survivors (i guess it is not THAT great of a perk after all). Should not be to much of a problem tho.
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@concubined said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3647987#Comment_3647987
It’s never that simple, and if a killer wanna tunnel please stop stigmatizing that as a deep personal attack on one’s character it’s just a strategy and a valid one at that.
Whats the issue then with OTR? When you want to tunnel as killer, why not simply hit the survivor after they get unhooked if they dont make sounds of pain? Or is it that you can not down them after unhook right away?
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@ctrlaltdefeat36 said:
Myself and about a dozen gamer friends in my network are quitting Dead By Daylight after the slew of awful changes made by BHVR to the game.
The last change to The Blight's Adrenaline Vial was the nail in the coffin for me.
I can see that BHVR has it all wrong when it comes to their approach to the game and why hoards of people are now leaving the community and finding other things to do with their downtime.
Let me give you some context before I go into more detail on why I will no longer spend any time in the DBD community.
This provides not just a gamer's perspective but also one of an entrepreneur.
I would say I fall outside of the typical DBD demographic. I work as a CEO to my own business with an 8-person team -- a digital marketing agency based in the UK. Subsequently, the free time I have is limited. Yet I still chose to spend much of this free time playing Dead By Daylight.
Why?
Because the game was so much fun. Pure and simple. A unique concept that has been fine-tuned over many years with interesting killers, survivors, cool perks, and exclusive licenses.
But if you go through this post you'll learn how BHVR has completely messed up the formula for this game, largely through their obsession with "balance" changes. But more importantly, their ethos behind the changes they make in the first place.
I'm a console player and have been since I first got a Playstation 1 over 20 years ago before moving to Xbox when the 360 came out. I've been playing Dead By Daylight on and off for a few years but started playing it more seriously in the last 9/10 months. In the last 6 months, I've had so much fun playing as the Blight, learning his power, and improving my skills.
The Blight is such a rewarding killer, with a super high skill ceiling, incredible design. And just a terrifying prospect with his crazy rush power.
Most importantly, he is fun as hell. Particularly once you get good at him (like anything).
Over the last months, I have watched as BHVR has butchered various killers and perks all in the name of "balance".
Let's start with the Blight.
Everyone knows he's one of the strongest killers in the game. And people (survivor mains) will never stop moaning about how he is too powerful. Let's be honest, survivors don't want to go up against strong killers with a high skill ceiling. Because it feels unfair when you go up against someone that's just that -- highly skilled.
Does that make the killer unbalanced or unfair? Of course not.
I also play FiFa and I'm in Division 1. I use Barcelona, not one of the strongest teams by a long shot. I play some of the best players in the world and I often go 30 online matches without losing a single game. Does it feel unfair to my opponents? Yes of course it does. Many of them think I'm cheating -- or they convince themselves that the game is "scripted" and I won because "the game allowed me".
if you play Fifa all day long and you get your ass kicked by someone who doesn't your brain is going to rationalize some type of excuse.
Why do I win? Because I learned the playstyle and techniques that beat 99% of people through YouTube. I love learning and improving in all aspects and take this into my gaming too.
Am I going to wake up one day to a different Fifa because the devs didn't like my playstyle or because I'm winning too much?
Never.
But this is exactly what the developers for Dead by Daylight do time and time again.
They look at the numbers and fail to take into account the full context of the data before they make a decision. They also contradict the entire ethos of the game through many of the changes they make.
What do I mean by that?
If you ask the team behind DBD -- it is a game that's supposed to revolve around fun. It's geared more for casual gamers than for hardcore professionals.
This is the reason they have done next to nothing for competitive play.
This is the reason why DBD has no stats.
This is the reason why various QOL changes have been implemented to stop undesirable playstyles like camping (which is totally fair).
But the obsession with changes to killers, add-ons, and perks makes it a game no longer worth the time investment.
Let's focus on BHVR's seemingly unending fetish with balance for a minute. Most real imbalances come from two main places:
- BHVR overpower perks for new killers or survivors to get you to buy them before they nerf them 6-12 months later.
- A genuine oversight from the developers on how a perk or power would play out in the game.
The idea of balance itself comes from a desire to even out the playstyles in the game. They want to see a more or less even usage of perks, killers, add-ons...etc.
But this will never happen because it goes against the law of nature itself.
Ever heard of the Pareto Principle?
It is the observation that most things in life are not distributed evenly. It can mean all of the following things:
- 20% of the input creates 80% of the result
- 20% of the workers produce 80% of the result
- 20% of the customers create 80% of the revenue
- 20% of the bugs cause 80% of the crashes
- 20% of the features cause 80% of the usage
- And on and on…
If we apply this in a gaming context, specifically relating to DBD:
80% of players will use 20% of perks in the game. There will always be meta perks.
80% of killers will use the same 20% of the add-ons available.
BHVR is constantly fighting against nature with an obsession to balance things out. Anytime something is meta, it finds itself on the radar for a nerf at some point down the line.
This is an unhealthy cycle that disrupts gameplay, pisses people off and ultimately drives people en masse away from the game.
Now let's look at some more specifics relating to recent updates from BHVR. Let's take 7.5.0 and 7.5.1 as an example.
People moaned for a very long time about Blight's add-ons and the Blight in general. If survivors had their way, he'd be 0.9ms with 1 rush and a 60-second cooldown.
But the points around his add-ons were valid.
Some of them were problematic.
Alchemist Ring, Blight tag, Compound 33.
We must remember that these are purple and iridescent add-ons. These should be powerful.
When you have powerful killers paired with powerful add-ons it's always going to cause a stir. But as long as add-ons aren't problematic, they should not be changed.
I don't take issue with making changes for problematic add-ons.
What I do have an issue with is poor reworks that render them useless. Then to take things further and nerf the only add-on that was worth running for a killer (Adrenaline Vial).
Alchemist Ring (after) -- Rushes are 20% longer than standard.
Compound 33 -- Rushes capped at 2. Rushes are 33% longer and have 33% improved turn rate.
Blight tag -- Unlimited rushes but a 20-second cooldown if your rush chain ends, you hit a pallet or you hit someone.
These new add-ons are so unoriginal and don't reflect the strength of the colours they represent. 2 out of 3 are focused on rush length. For a Blight, rush length is pretty much useless when using bump logic to catch a survivor. He always has great mobility to traverse the map with his basekit. This does nothing to add to his power in a meaningful way. Not to mention the 7.5.1 change for Compound 33 which has now rendered the add-on completely useless. 2 rushes is worse than basekit and nobody will use this.
And who needs infinite rushes? You want to hit a survivor, not travel from New York to California in a crazed fit of rage.
The problem in this case is bad add-on design. It's a lazy rework to one of the most fun killers in the game.
Then we have Adrenaline Vial -- an add-on that has gone through more changes than Joan Rivers face. Before 7.5.1 we had the following:
- Reduces the Recharge time per Power Token by -1 second.
- Increases the number of available Power Tokens by +2.
- Increases your Movement speed during a Rush by +10 %.
- Increases your maximum Look angle during a Rush by +50 °.
- Reduces your Turn rate during a Rush by -0.5 °/s.
Then it changed to this:
- Increases the number of available Power Tokens by +2.
- Increases your Movement speed during a Rush by +5 %.
- Increases your maximum Look angle during a Rush by +20 °.
And now in 7.5.1 BHVR had re-added the downside of -55% turn rate without the recharge time bonus.
In 7.5.0 this add-on was perfect. The Blight felt incredible with his 20-degree look angle increase along with the other benefits of the add-on.
At the sametime, this add-on doesn't make any sense.
BHVR, instead of creating an add-on that does everything and giving it a huge downside, split up the benefits.
Remove the turnrate reduction and keep the look angle and speed. You can forgo the additional power tokens. Or split up the effects. I'd love an add-on that just gives look angle increase of 20 degrees. That could replace one of the many worthless browns. Or one that increases power tokens by 2 and decreases the recharge rate (idea for a green).
Instead, we now have 1 add-on that's worth running in the game and the downside only widens the gap between console and PC players.
If we're talking about balance, look angle and turn rate make the biggest difference to console players. Since we struggle to change direction in the same way a PC player can due to DPI sensitivity. Many console players run both turn rate add-ons to compensate for this.
Considering your approach to balance, I'm pretty shocked this hasn't been factored into your rework.
It's one thing reworking problematic add-ons and doing it well so there's actually benefits to running them. What we have here is not a rework. It's an utter demolition of any form of useful add-ons for this killer.
And this approach to reworks and game balance is why myself and many others have decided to move away from the game for good.
Over the last months, I have watched as BHVR has butchered various killers and perks all in the name of "balance".
What killers are we talking about? The only nerfs for killer i can think off the last months are Blights addons and Good Guys 180 S&D, which was actually only a bugfix. Rest were pretty significant buffs or release of pretty strong killers.
Let's start with the Blight.
Everyone knows he's one of the strongest killers in the game. And people (survivor mains) will never stop moaning about how he is too powerful.
Because he simply is. In comp it is expected to 4K, at 2 gens left! While survivors have less limitation then Blight!
Explain us, what makes you think this killer is not OP? I LOVE Blight, probably my 2nd or 3rd favourite killer, but there is no denying that the power he has is extremly strong. Even without addons.
Why do I win? Because I learned the playstyle and techniques that beat 99% of people through YouTube. I love learning and improving in all aspects and take this into my gaming too.
So what do you wanna say with that? You are a god gifted pro gamer that needs a few months of training and automatically you are better then everything else? Other people play the game two, learn things and play in a competetive enviorment. You are not amazing, nore are you most likely very good. How do i know this? Because good or excellent blright players do not even need addons. They crush without. And good Blight players KNOW how busted those addons were and some of them still are.
I think thats really it. I could not read the rest of your text because of how fundamentally wrong you are with what i have read so far.
Anyway, good luck have fun with other games.
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@UnknownKiller said:
That swf with comms destroy all fun in one side even on new mode
Are you saying you are loosing on Lights Out? As killer? This mode is probably 99% winrate on killer. And the 1% are those who have mercy on survivors (like me) and start to farm when the game is over... after like 3-5 minutes
More and more i am questioning if some of you people are actually serious. It is litteraly impossible to loose as killer on Lights out.
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@Shaddoll_Serpent said:
How often do killers actually instantly hit off hook to negate the benefits of OTR since I keep hearing this argument brought up?
Not necessarily agreeing with OP, but I just don't feel like this is something that should be happening very often since the killer basically has to be directly face camping in order to do that, which people aren't going to do with the AFC mechanic. I guess I could see them doing it after getting hit by OTR the first time, but randomly hitting unhooked survivors when you're not even sure if they have OTR or not is just a bad move IMO.
How often does it happen that killer hit right after unhook? That depends:
When you dont have OTR: Never
When you do have ORT: Always
The difference are Grunts of pain.
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@JeanGreyarea said:
Just asking
It was insanly boring.
Playing against bots is honestlys more challanging.
I played a lot of killers but eventually i sticked with Bubba to go through the Tome as fast as possible. In total (!!) they finished across all rounds maybe 7-8 generators. Most games were 4K 5gen while going easy on them.
Its just a shame how unware BHVR's Ballance team is. Especially when compared to the Sound team or the license department ;)
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With the upcoming DS rework which I’m assuming to be an unasked-for buff
Unasked? Rather most requested.
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Its lame and unfun, thats fore sure. But it is not cheating or anything.
Calling it "Bad Sportsmanship" is more acurate then "not fair".
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Like i said in a previous post, a DBD Version randomizer would be even better.
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Agree on most.
Artist should be swaped with Chucky.
Wesker should be swaped with Oni.
Freddy is not the worst, arguably stronger then Myers and probably also Trapper.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3645663#Comment_3645663
I think Lights Out also enhances the killer experience.
It is nice to have that "oh crap!" experience that you've described, but it is even better to be the one who causes it. The killer is the danger, the monster lurking in the fog. It is a role which has to feel threatening, and I think it does feel threatening in Lights Out.
Unfortunately my main isn't available, but I've been having a lot of fun with the Knight. Spawning guards from the darkness, a survivor turns a corner and I'm suddenly there. It is perfect.
I played almost exclusivly killer and it was boring as hell. It did not felt like me beeing a scary monster, it felt like me beeing a cheater. Especially true on Bubba.
I did not loose a single game as killer nore where they able to finish more then 3 gens (unless i farmed with them when they got stomped at like 5 gens).
Maybe it is the killers wish to stomp survivors without much they can do, but i for myself cant get out that this scenario much. I rather prefere some challange experience instead of this slaughterhouse easy mode.
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@I_CAME said:
I had more fun playing against three gen skull merchants than I did playing lights out. Thankfully the challenges can be completed in normal games.
They can????
Guess i went through some unnecessary suffering tho :(
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3646493#Comment_3646493
"because the only reason they do is it is the best strategy at the moment"
This is the part where we disagree. Have been camped, tunneled, and smacked on hook for having the name "Rulebreaker" before and thats one of the tame crazy reasons. People will do as they wish and even if punished or rewarded, if they wana tunnel, they gonna tunnel. Hell, we've even been guilty of irrationally tunneling for a stupid reason, and we very much like to think we're not the worst the DBD community has to offer.
We all have been tunneled and camped for whatever reason, and it will never change. There are always those who do it just because. But they are clearly outnumbers by those wo tunnel for the win.
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@Nebula said:
If there’s one thing that’s proven to be true in this game, it does not matter how much you nerf survivor or buff killer, some people will always try to make it a 3v1 as early as possible. There’s been numerous, numerous examples in the past of the community asking for something because it’s the reason either survivors genrush or killers tunnel, that change is made, and nothing changes.
As long as it’s easier to win with 3 survivors alive instead of 4, nothing will ever change. There will always be another excuse to get rid of somebody as early as possible. The goalposts have moved so much over the past few years on this issue it's actually ridiculously funny.
"Gen speeds are too fast! They should take longer and killers won't feel the need to tunnel", Gen speed increased by 50 seconds overall, and in reality probably closer to a whole 6th generator when adding regression into the mix. People still tunnel.
"Gen regression perks are too bad! Only Corrupt and Ruin are viable!" Jolt buffed, Pop buffed, Grim Embrace buffed, Pain Res, Dead Man's Switch, Overcharge, Call of Brine and Eruption meta happened. People still tunneled, more if anything.
"Survivor healing speeds are too fast! I can't apply enough pressure to stop survivors from cranking out gens!" Healing speed nerfed, Circle of Healing nerfed, medkits nerfed, sloppy butcher buffed, thanatophobia buffed, etc. People still tunneled.
"Survivors aren't healing anymore due to the nerf to healing, now they're only doing gens and not healing!" Kept tunneling.
"Toolboxes are too strong! They shave way too much time off gens, change those and people won't have to tunnel!" Toolboxes nerfed, BNP nerfed, scavenger destroyed before even making it to live. Nothing changed.
Let's be real, the community (including me) doesn't know what they want and don't know how to fix this game. It's been out 8 years, it's going to take a full on overhaul and a plethora of changes to fix the issue of tunneling. Every change this game has made has came with a different excuse as to why people continue to play the way they play. It's more than likely never going to change considering the scale of changes they would need to make, it would more than likely require them to take a content break and we've seen that they're not willing to do that. Everything else is a band-aid fix.
If there’s one thing that’s proven to be true in this game, it does not matter how much you nerf survivor or buff killer, some people will always try to make it a 3v1 as early as possible.
Not with the idea i presented. Thats the point. If a killer would only focus on this one survivor, gen speed will go up fast so survivors will actually, even in 3v1 have a very good chance to dominate the killer.
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@Rulebreaker said:
Putting aside that everyone has a different definition of those words:
As much as we like the idea, it really wouldn't stop people from tunneling. People will tunnel because they wish too. Granted least it's a lot more likely that the others escape through the doors with this.
I dont think killer would tunnel at all, because the only reason they do is it is the best strategy at the moment.
With a change like this, pressure gens / spread hooks and make survviors bussy would be more effective.
@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
That's not solution, that's just big nerf to survivors.
All survivors will start with repair penalty (80% speed on gens) which removes only advantage from survivors: EARLY GAME.
Yes. Survivors are strong only at early game. Why? Because noone is in chase. Noone on hook. Noone is injured. Everyone can repair gens. And we are adding big penalty to this.
And if one survivor dies, it does not matter how much speed you give to team. Because they won't be free to work on gens. Because let's say, one will be on hook, one will be in chase and one will have to go save. That's why 3 v 1 games are mostly ending with survivor loses, that's why killers want to tunnel one survivor out.
So your solution is just big nerf to survivors but no solution of tunnelling. That's not good idea.
Not sure if this is actually a survivor nerf. Why would it be?
If killers can not tunnel anymore (aka no quick 3v1), slower early gens completly justify the repair penalty.
And if killer keeps tunneling, gens will fly after the 2nd down.
Again, like i said, those number are not carved in stone. If it would be more fair to make it 80/120/150% repair speed or 70/100/130 is not up to debate, its about the bigger pictuer.
@HerInfernalMajesty said:
I like where you’re going with the idea but maybe it can be tweaked a little bit.
Maybe repair speeds can be less than 100% at the start of the game. And every time a Survivor gets killed the repair speed goes up.
It’s similar to your idea but instead of triggering from hooks it triggers from kills. Also 80% is probably too drastic. Maybe 90% would be better.
That is what i am trying to do with the idea.
The repair speed at the beginning is less then 100%, but once a survivor is hooked twice, it goes up to above 100%. If a killer kills of a survivor, the speed goes up much much faster.
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My most wanted:
Random perks, random map, random killer - all from a specfiic random version of the game. Maybe you get 2023 DBD, maybe you get 2017, you never know until it starts. That would be awesome.
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@TieBreaker said:
Can we agree that most matches are less won by the killer and more failed by survivors screwing up and not playing well?. They get hit the second they are in chase and go down about 10 seconds later. Two go for a rescue and the result is that two are hooked and the other is slugged. I can't even finish one gen as I have to keep rescuing and healing them.
I've tried playing aggressive by finding the killer and looping them but then nobody can find or do the gens. Survivors should get 2 or 3 gens done before everyone is dead at a least. Instead I have matches where everyone dies with 1 gen done, and only because I did the damn thing. I thought the HUD was gonna make solo queue like SWF. What happened? I know that SWF aren't getting 4K'd in 90% of their matches with 1 or no gens done.
I know that if I had 3 teammates that were reasonably gen efficient (as in they could find or repair the damn things) and could run the killer for more than 20 seconds each time we would have a fighting chance. Constantly losing due to the trash matchmaking is not fun. This is what most survivors get to experience playing this game. This is why play most players don't stick around. Losing consistently through no fault of your own is not enjoyable. And before killer players say that losing is fine, I refer you to all the posts from killer players who have lost one match to a SWF and have proceeded to lose their minds. Try that ten matches in a row with no MMR system to help you out. You don't like being cheesed out by perks and I don't like playing doomed matches that fall apart within 1:30 with no hope of recovering.
At least killers can drop MMR for easier matches. As survivor I don't even have that luxury. If my MMR drops I get even worse teammates, meaning even more losses. It's like solo queue is an inescapable vortex of garbage.
Disagree to some degree.
It is very easy to see when survivors do mistakes, but not so easy on killer. That is why it feels that way.
If both sides would play perfect, it is very hard to predict how matches would end overall.
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@ghost91 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3645949#Comment_3645949
You leave a huge point, I can't say that I may be wrong. I never use grim embrace. Let's talk about Call of brine, or Hex Ruin? They were massacred, any thoughts on that?
If you want a much slower game, use Grim Embrace, Pain Res, Dead Mans Switch and Ultimate Weapon. GL survivors, you will need it.
Hex Ruin is still decent in my opinion. While it got buffed recently, they indeed nerfed Ruin (multible times) during its lifespan, but even the old Ruin would have been overshadowed by the even stronger Perks we have now. Besides those i mentioned, Pop or Jolt aka Surge are always strong picks.
I use Call of Brine only with specific builds. A favourite of mine is
- Huntress Lullaby
- CoB
- Overcharge
- Oppression
This is not my creation, i saw it on youtube (on Freddy). I was surprised how well it works most of the time.
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@ghost91 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3645930#Comment_3645930
I have to disagree with The grim embrace, 12 seconds is very short. Nothing here stated anything against gen rushing, but you have great points.
4 times 12 seconds (and the 4th time 40 seconds) on every generator is short? When you do the math you will realise how much slowdown this is. On top of that, it is working with Dead Mans Switch. So it is potentially 30 seconds eatch time. The game entirely locked for over 2 minutes for two perk slot is insane (and DMS still works after GE).
I did not state anything against gen rushing, because gens are fine. Lets say we would increase the time it takes to repair a gen from 90 to 100 seconds, what should the survivors get in return? You probably know that killrate is already very high (~60% on average). They need to get something in compensation, and it gotta be something big, most killers probably would not like.
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@Mandy said:
This is the Dev badge, can only be got if you work for BHVR I'm afraid.
How about a badge for very active forum members? 😁
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@ghost91 said:
Some will say gen rushing is not a thing, but it is. Gens get popped so quickly, even perks can help that... The devs unfortunately nerf killer perks that were perfect, and the generator update is basically a nerf to killer. it's not even about being good anymore, games are like 8, minutes sometimes, and then loops are every 8 meters at this point and the game is just a little annoying at times. I'm hoping Behavior can work there magic and pake gens take longer or something, killers shouldn't have to gen perks to slow people down, especially when there nerfed 24/7.
The devs unfortunately nerf killer perks that were perfect
Name them. They recently buffed Grim Embrace, which is arguably the most ridiculous overpowered slowdown perk since the existance of the term slow down.
and the generator update is basically a nerf to killer
It is a buff for killer. You never reach 8 regression stats anyway, but killer got +2,5% extra on top of the already existing 2,5% kick. And they removed Gen taping. If you reach 8 regression stats as a killer on a single gen, you probably have already won the game.
it's not even about being good anymore, games are like 8, minutes sometimes, and then loops are every 8 meters at this point
Pallets have a spawn logic. It depends on the map but they spawn at least 14-20 meters apart from each other. Said that, most maps are full of deadzones. Many maps come with 8-10 pallets. The overall average is somewhere between 12 and 13 pallets. Most pallets these days are super weak. Jungle Gyms are super weak compared to how they used to be.
"anymore"
What do you mean anymore? For survivors, kinda. The game is the by far most killer sided it ever was.