unluckycombo
unluckycombo
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I don't DC against any Killer, but the ones I dread facing the most are Spirits, Wraiths, Nurses, Deathslingers, and Blights. Most of the time, when I verse one of those Killers, they tend to be super sweaty, and will do anything for a 4k, no matter how well the match is going for them, or they'll just be really bad and you feel like you're bullying them because they're struggling so bad. Just tends to feel to face.
With that being said though, I do really love playing Nurse and Spirit, so I definitely understand the appeal of those Killers- it just sucks that it feels like there's no middle ground between 'Feeling like I'm bullying a new player' and 'This guy is insane and just destroyed us in pubs with a super hard meta build and no cares in the world'.
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Normally, I don't run hard meta builds nor do I normally bring items. Depending on the Killer/how they're playing, I'll tend to meme around with them more, and do things like nod at them when they're approaching and try to give them items. (Normally do this the most with Myers players, just because I love Myers- but I'll also occasionally do it to Ghostface players, or anyone who's obviously messing around. Myers are normally more willing to meme with me.)
Outside of some (normally Killer-intiated) memeing, I'll play normally. I'll run any structure if I'm getting chased, and I'll try to escape. If the Killer is struggling for downs or hook states though, I'll normally at least try to ease up on Gen progress and focus on doing some side objectives if I'm not in chase- like totems and chests- to try to give the Killer more time to get a few more hooks/downs, and for me to get more points.
If the Killer is really struggling, and I ran them for like half the game, and we reach EGC with no one dead and everyone safe and escaping, I'll normally come back and let them hook me and get at least a 1k, that way it isn't as painful of a game for them.
That's just me tho.
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God, there's a lot of IPs I'd love to see that we don't have- mostly since I hadn't really looked into Horror/Slasher movies till DBD!
Top choice would be a chapter inspired by an old RPG Horror Game, like Mad Father, Witch's House, The Crooked Man, Misao, Ao Oni, etc. Those were, and still are, games I'm super nostalgic for- even if they're not great by today's standard.
But, I'd also love to see a SOMA, Slenderman, Amnesia, Corpse Party, or PuppetCombo (Any of their games tbh, they all fit well) do a crossover with DBD. They're all amazing horror games. (I'd also love a Bioshock chapter, though I know some could argue it's not really a horror game like the others.)
As for random ones that I know for a fact would never make it in, like, chances smaller then my fever dream of RPG Horror Maker titles, but are still really fun/funny for me are:
Heathers and Barbie's Life in the Dream House. Let Closet be the Killer.
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God, I'd commit crimes for a Heather's Themed DBD chapter. I would P3 JD in an instant, and Veronica would probably be my main female Survivor in a heartbeat. It'd be cool too if like the add-ons tied into their interactions too- like the rat poison, a slushie, fake suicide note, etc.
Idk, I'm an absolute sucker for those two, and I also just adore the idea of playing as them. (Also, like, the Heathers being Legendary Skins??? C'mon, it'd be ######### hilarious to see a team of all three of the Heathers try to meme on someone like Hillbilly.)
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@EntitySpawn said:
2 gen regression? That's not alot at all and kinda needed when you go against a team that does gens... have you ever thought you and your friends (or randoms) are higher rank than you should be? Like if you're struggling then its probably on you, not being mean but with the bad ranking it happens
Most games were 2-4, aka two or more gen regression perks per game, witih many having entire builds surruonding it. (Along with playing Killers that we generally anti-loop.)
However, that was not the point of my post, and it's not an issue of Rank. (I'm at 2.5k hours, and I do play both sides at Red Ranks, and normally sit around Rank 1 as Survivor. I'm cool with like, two regression perks stacked- heck, I'm a lover of Thana+Sloppy myself, but I think it's at least agreeable that stacking three or more slowdown perks is kinda needlessly insane in your average match.) My point is, there's not really a reason why people playing on either side can't ease up on each other when it's absolute annihlation, both to give themselves more points, and to give the other players in this game a chance to play.
@JPA said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/268492/ease-up
"Seriously, if the game is already pretty much set to be a W for you, there's no reason why either side can't ease up and at least try to give the other side a chance to recover or at least get more BP"
There is a reason to not ease up and it's because you could end up losing the game.
For a Killer: you don't know all the progress on gens, it could be 3 remaining gens but two of them could be at 80%, which means you're actually seconds from 1 gen left. I've had many games where I've eased up on survivors and ended up losing a game I could have won.
For a Survivor: the game can change at any second with a snowball situation, if the Killer downs/hooks 2 survivors then it puts lots of pressure on the remaining survivors to save, and it is obviously game over if the still standing survivors go down
Idk man, I've had plenty of games on both sides where easing up on people at 3 gens left or one hook with 2 gens left on Killer/Survivor hasn't costed me anything. Sure, if you're playing Survivor, a person might not escape- but I've always been of the opinion that getting a 3 man out over a 4 man out or a 3k over a 4k isn't really something to get riled up over, or to consider a 'loss', unless you're playing by some sort of weird challenge rules. (Like the Hardcore Challenge that Dowsey does, or Otz's 50 Wins series, where hatch is a-okay, but Exit Gates aren't.) But, I think those are kinda just niche cases.
Besides, when I say that 'the game is set to be a W for you', I mean it. I mean games where you get 2-3 hooks by the time the first gen has popped and you know where just about everyone is, and how long they've probably been doing it. (Something that you can do with info perks, not that I really saw any last night- but examples such as seeing no one on BBQ on a gen, getting a hook not long after with everyone already death hook or close to it, and then seeing people actually get on gens for the first time since the game started. And, generally, Survivors don't really understand how to loop, or you just seem to destroy them at every single loop they come to.) Or games where you know the Killer just isn't great, and has no idea how to really use their power, and their potential to snowball is pretty low. (Like the baby Hags who will take every trap, or the Nurses who try to play like M1 Killers, or the Blight that you've kept on a pallet that should be pretty easy for him to get you on, but he's struggling. Hard.) I think situations like that are pretty clear examples of games where you can ease up a little on either side and do other things, and still be confident to get either a 3-4k, or a 3-4 man out, while still giving the other side a chance to play and get some points of their own.
@Huge_Bush said:
I don’t run any regression perks and I run brown add ons with my Trapper. 7/10 matches I have people bring in 2 tool boxes and rush gens ASAP, constantly run to the strongest loop and push gens in my face.
Even with seemingly bad players, I’ll take it easy on them but end up regretting it because it just goes to their head thinking they’re better and they start t-bagging at the exit gates.
Better to play to win rather than be nice and let people take advantage of my kindness.
Might just be me then, I'd rather come out of a game with a 2-1 man out with everyone getting a lot of points, or the opposite of a 1-2k because I misjudged a situation and eased up then end a game where the Survivors are lucky to have gotten over 10k points (with some barely hitting 5k), or the Killer barely even getting 10k points.
(Plus, I can get the snowball a lot easier against you, especially when playing Killers like Wraith, Legion, or Trapper without any regression perks, so I definitely get where you're coming from- but I kinda assumed in my original post that people are running at least a gen regression perk, since they are the majority of meta perks on Killer's side, and I genuinely don't think it's a bad thing for people to run a regression perk or two.)
@chargernick85 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/268492/ease-up
Just the way it is. There are plenty of RNG variables in every match including the killer build vs survivors intentions. I can tell you I have not been running any regression perks of late and even when the game is going smooth it still ends up being tight because majority of matches the gens are eaten alive like you receive money for each one complete. A lobby of 4 casuals playing around are rare these days. A killer preparing for the rush of gens is the best play at this current time. Also I would like to add that not all killers use just there mains every game. You have no idea if he is new with that killer or not. I use my whole roster and some I suck ass with but apparently a rank 1 should be amazing with the entire roster. Right?
I get the RNG and all, I wouldn't mind it if it was every few games, but when you get to a point like last night for me where it was just game after game for multiple hours of players like that, all of which who were decent on the Killer they were playing (Because you can tell a difference between someone who's new, decent, or good at the Killer they're playing), it's kinda insane and I don't see a reason for it to happen on either side. (Especially since many players don't really make their loadouts a secret during the game on either side when you play, so you can usually tell the difference.) Idk, I just think that there are plenty of games where players, no matter what role they're in queue for, can relax and just kinda chill out instead of just hard focusing on their objectives for the entire game. (Especially, again, when you're against an average Killer and you're destroying them, like a Bubba who struggles to get Bamboozle value and is easily spun, or a Survivor group where you have like 3 hooks by the time the first gen pops, and decide the best course of action is to slug, even though you've already seen everyone that match and have destroyed them at every chase you've been in- especially if you are stacking like 3 or more slowdown perks.)
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Probs won't change your mind, but SWF isn't toxic. Sure, Streetwise shouldn't stack like it does, and going against that plus Purple Beamers with Hag isn't great, but like... that's also 2 perks out of everyone's build dedicated to a meme, and it sounds more like you got cucked by matchmaking then the SWF.
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Oh, I have quite a few of those.
- Killer is a lot stronger then people give the role credit for in most cases.
- SWF isn't that bad. At all. Most of them aren't really sweat lords, they're just a bunch of friends trying to have fun.
- Gens going fast in the beginning of the game isn't as terrible of a thing most of the time as people make it out to be.
- Slowdown perks shouldn't be able to be stacked to the degree they currently can in PUBs.
- On that same token, imho Survivors should have a perk lock out for meta perks, similar to a lot of tourney rules, where you can only have up to 2 of the same meta perk, or at least exhaustion perk. (So like, 4 Flip-Flops is fine, but like 4 DS+UB with DH isn't.) At the very least, I wouldn't mind seeing this rule for 4 man SWFs.
- Slugging/Tunneling, along with NOED has a lot of potential to absolutely destroy in PUBs, and can be really hard to counter for how easy it is to pull off.
- Spirit does take some skill, but not half as much as the other Killers at her strength.
- A lot of people on both sides make a lot of mistakes in game that lose them games, but not enough people want to talk about their own mistakes.
- On the same token, this game is unnecessarily sweaty, and the game+community doesn't do enough to help encourage the breaking of this cycle, on both sides.
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@PsychoTron said:
I played clean and fair, no tunnel no camp not using NOED, when gens were being done.
1 of the gates were open, EGC occurred and the timer is going down; I went to the other gate and downed someone and hooked them.
Is there anywhere I should go? What does the Killer Etiquette Manual state in this situation?
I just face camped her, she died. Post chat she was salty I 'pitched a tent to camp'.
Should I have given chase to 1 of her rescuer and abandon the hooked survivor which would have eventually led to another teammate rescuing her? Then I should get tea bagged and clicky spam at gate, with post chat calling me a baby killer and how you fell for such an easy ploy while they go have a laugh at my expense?
Is this the way I should have played? 😅
Nope. I'm a Survivor Main, so I promise you you did the right thing. I've never thought it's fair for Survivors to judge the Killer/get fussy with them because they got facecamped when all the gens are done. At that point, your best option is to secure your kill, and capitalize on their greed if they attempt unhooks.
Now, if you had done it before all five gens were done, or something wild, then I could get a little fuss. But from your recounting of things? They were probably just being grumpy, and I wouldn't take it too seriously.
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I normally play in SWFs, but I'll occasionally do a solo game here or there, and they're mixed bags. Solo players we get when we do 3 mans tend to be notoriously awful. (Like players who will get you killed with their bad plays. A lot.) A few good players here and there, but they're not common.
When I solo queue, I tend to get average to meh teammates with generally decent perk varieties (One guy with a full meta build, with everyone else maybe having one or two meta perks and then some random, oddball stuff for the rest of the build), but I also tend to get a lot of Killers with really overwhelming builds/perks, or maps that are hard to verse them on. (Like Stridor Spirit who otherwise had a meme build, but doesn't matter when you're playing Stridor Spirit, or Deathslinger with Pop/Ruin/Monitor on Midwich.)
Idk, I like playing Solo, but it can feel super overwhelming, because good Killers can just so easily dominate a solo team.
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Got about 78 on Leon as my top. Anyone else with cakes are under 20, since I was blowing all of my cakes on Killer on leveling up Leon to P3.
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I've done that before. I don't have a specific crutch perk, but I do definitely have a love for Iron Will, Flip Flop, Prove Thyself, and Blood Pact. (I'm also a huge lover of chest build.)
Idk, I'll switch up my builds, but I always aim for builds I find fun above anything else.
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I got a few!
Michael- Daddy Myers/Mookel Myers/Bicyle Byers
Pyramid Head- The Caboose/Dorito Man/The Thicc Brick
Ghostface- GhostDaddy
Wraith- Bing Bong
Deathslinger- Ding Dong
Plague- Vommy Mommy
Huntress- Hunty
Bubba- Boobie
Pig- Miss Piggy
Legion- Weeegion.
And I think that's all the nicknames my friends and I gave the Killers.
Edit: Forgot a few for Myers.
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I agree with what everyone else is saying: I win if I had fun. If I die to Michael after spending the game memeing with him, that's a W in my book.
If I had to put things in order as Survivor, it'd go something like this:
- Having fun.
- Getting a really good, long chase in against a decent Killer. (I mean like a long chase against a Killer who knows there stuff while you have teammates who don't just sit on gens- not a 3 gen chase while the entire team was sitting on a gens and you just pre-threw every pallet or the Killer is really new and struggling on like Hag. I want mindgames and good plays.)
- Getting archive/dailies done.
- Getting value out of a non-meta perk like Flip-Flop without dedicating an entire build to it.
- Getting over 10k BP.
- Getting the team out.
- Escaping myself.
For Killer, it's about the same, but with minor changes: 2. Getting good use and skill/value out of Killer's power. 4. Getting 4 stacks of BBQ. 6 and 7 are 'Getting a 2k', and 5 is getting value out of an odd-ball or meme perk like Make Your Choice value on Legion.
Idk, I play for fun, not to escape every game. (Even though I guess you could call my builds on both sides a little more meta leaning rn, but man I just find the builds really fun and satisfying to run.)
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@gendoss said:
Idk why but for some reason I really love the tomes. Something about working towards getting a lot of year-long exclusive items really gets me motivated to play. I also look forward to the next tome because it's like new content for me.
So how do you see the rift? Is it exciting or just another battle pass that you don't care about?
It really depends on the character focus and the cosmetics in the Rift. If it has some really cool stuff, then I'm interested. (Like the Kendo Spirit Skin, the Julie Flannel Skin, Flaming Wraith, Spaceman Jake.) If it's mostly recolors, then not really. (Like the Hillbilly pants that were pretty much just recolored default pants. If that.)
I do like the challenges though and how they encourage switching up builds, playstyles, and Killers for both sides. There's also a handful of charms I've really liked from the Rift. (Stuffed Crow and the Claudette Charm are still some of my favourites to equip.)
I also like the lore they give a lot of them to some degree. (I think some can be better in some areas though, and some like Legions I don't touch with a 5-Foot pole.) I'm also excited for some of the new stuff that's been leaked to be coming for upcoming rifts, so I'm definitely alright with them.
I do wish Glyphs didn't debuff you though as Survivor, and some challenges are kinda needlessly hard on Killer. (Like the one where you have to hit two people with one use of Corrupt Purge as Plague, twice in one match is kinda insane...)
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Might be less Elite Survivor Squads and more of 'A few good SWFs who know how to use their second chance perks and got lucky with their map rng'. Could be wrong, idk their builds or the Killer you played, but map rng can definitely make or break it for both Killers and Survivors.
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@justbecause said:
So I just started playing spirit and the thing is I don't have stridor because my nurse is level 1 I have no headphones as well only speakers and I do enjoy it but this "disvantage" of not having those things makes it difficult to play you think I could use that add on that shows blood pools for easier tracking? Because right now I can't hear nor see and it's already enough painful on ps4
You don't have to have Stridor for Spirit, but yeah, you do at least need a headset. The ability to pin point directional sounds is key for her- and it's really hard to do that without a headset.
I'd also just recommend watching Otz's videos on Spirit. He has great guides overall, and his ones on Spirit are great.
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I play both sides, with my main Killer being Spirit. Most my hours have been in Survivor thus far though.
The issue is that Spirit's add-ons are literally broken. They do way more then intended. To add to it, Spirit has a lot of ways to track Survivors, while the Survivors will rarely even know when the Spirit they're in chase with is actually phasing. (Yes, there is a subtle animation difference, however, it's not necessarily clear, and if you don't know her animation cycle, it's really, really easy to mess up.) Because of this, Spirit has the ability to pretty much stand still, watch you start juking before she even begins phasing, and then phase and call you on your bluffs because of how fast she is.
With that being said, I think Spirit is a hard Killer to fix outside of add-on changes and this Stridor change. (Stridor change being very necessary.) I've seen a lot of bad Spirits in my time as Survivor who just cannot for the life of them understand that her phase is more then a mobility tool, and get ran for 5 gens. There's also a decent learning curve with getting decent phase walks (Definitely not as high as say Huntress, Blight, or Nurse, but still higher then say, Wraith.) that are more risky mid-chase. And, on the flip side, I've seen a lot of Survivors who don't even really attempt to play around some of Spirit's faults (even if they are, admittedly minor) and will just hold W to death or attempt to canp pallets.
Idk, I don't think Spirit without Stridor is as braindead as people make her out to be, but she definitely is extremely domineering against most players in the game if you're good at her- and the fact that she doesn't have clear tells and broken add-ons makes her frustrating to face as a Survivor, since, like other really good Killers, Survivor's skill doesn't really matter against them. It's all about the Killer's skill.
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It's technically not a legit strategy, but it's already one that's normally punished by the system with temp DC Bans. It's just that DC penalties are currently off. (Plus, DCs lose all of your BP gained that match.)
Tbh tho, I think the system is fine as-is. I personally don't slug for 4k's, and I think that if DC penalties are on there's already enough incentive not to do it.
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@Shooby said:
It's fairly easy to see why Stridor, an otherwise non-problematic and niche perk was changed to be countered by Iron Will, no longer countering it. It's a band-aid Spirit nerf.
This is going to be slight conjecture, but knowing how the devs identify their targets for balance changes, statistics of Stridor probably showed a clear correlation: Stridor's usage had an inflated kill rate when ran on Spirit, and the kill rate was disproportionate for player's running her with and without Stridor. So, balancing based off of kill rate and pick rate statistics, the devs decide to nerf the perk and not the killer.
In the grand scheme of things, this change isn't too impactful or meaningful, but does highlight BHVR's inability to balance this game, once again balancing based off of statistics and not top-end or overall player feedback.
To be fair, Spirit really just needs an add-on pass before anything, and Stridor made her a lot easier for free, so it makes sense to change that first and go from there. (Because, let's be real, compared to no Stridor Spirit, Stridor Spirit with good add-ons is super easy mode. At least a Spirit without Stridor has to track using sound.)
Plus, imho, Iron Will isn't in a bad place, and the issues surrounding it are something every Killer faces, and needs to be addressed- it was just more blatant versus Spirit. (Because Iron Will can bug out and will take away all of your sounds, like breathing and footsteps, instead of just your grunts of pain. But, again, lots of sound bugs.)
Idk, I really like this change. It makes Spirits who don't want to really learn some of the more harder aspects of Spirit- especially verses Iron Will- struggle and be forced to either learn or move on, and it doesn't really change or destroy the meta for anyone. (While hopefully allowing Iron Will to be talked about enough to also recieve the change it needs- taking away grunts of pain only, and not things like footsteps. AKA: the perk doing what it's supposed to do, but not more then it should like it currently does.)
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Do: Try to always say 'GG' at the end of the match.
Don't: Run Self Care. Bring a Med-Kit or Inner Strength instead. (Remember, Inner Strength's timer for healing is always the same, no matter the Killer's perks- so you will always take 8 seconds to heal, even if the Killer has Sloppy Butcher, and a lot of people run it!)
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I have a few P3'd 50 with all perks that I'll update every chapter, and then a list of ones I want to get to that point.
So for example, my P3 50 All Perk Survivors are Jake, Nea, and Steve. I'll prioritise new perks on Jake, then Nea and then Steve, just so my options are open on multiple Survivors. (I focus Jake first though, since I always gravitate towards playing him the most.) Then I have some Survivors who are P3, but I'm still grinding out all perks on, who I have an order on priority. Once they get all perks, they join the top list. Currently, my P3 (But not all perks) list consists of Leon, Felix, Ash, Yui, and Yun-Jin, in order of priority.
As for Killer, I have two P3'd with all Perks- Myers and Pig. Nurse has all perks though (Didn't feel like prestiging, I got the build I wanted from her within like... 60 bloodwebs.) And so does Pyramid Head. (I want to prestige him, but I also don't want to lose my Year 4 cakes on him, or use them...) Currently trying to P3 all perk Spirit though, then next will be Ghostface.
Idk, for me P3's have to have a good bloody cosmetic I'd want to wear and show off, because that's normally the head I'll put on and stick with it. (It's a very rare day that I play Jake, Steve, Myers, or Pig without their P3 face.) If they don't have one I like, or my first Bloodweb is good enough for me, I normally won't P3. (For example, I love playing Nurse, but I don't like her P3, and I have a good build on her without too much grind, so I'm not investing the time into the P3.)
(To answer your other question, for Survivor I'll only throw BP into them again when I need to update their perk line up every chapter, or during an event like this to get some event items on them. For Killer, I'll basically do the same thing, but I'll also throw BP into them for more Add-Ons as needed- since there are a ton of Add-On reliant Killers.)
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I'm gonna be the guy that says 'Yes'.
We shouldn't have 5 side-by-side or linking into each other, and obviously god pallets should be minimum to non-existant (Like, we don't need 10 shacks in the game, but Lery's doesn't need to have an unstoppable pallet in every hallway either.)
But unless Bloodlust goes away, or we don't have as many chase-heavy Killers (Like, Killers that can end chase at a ton of pallets in like .2 seconds if they're good, generally regardless of Survivor skill) then I think it's fine as it is.
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Hmmm... this is a hard one for me, since most of my dislike towards Killer+Perk Combos come from the Killer just knowing how to play well, or poor teammates. (And most of my complaints about Killer either come from lack of reasonable counterplay for Survivor and the way people act as those Killers)
But I'm gonna say Agitation+Starstruck on a decent Nurse. It can be really oppressive to face if the Nurse is decent on an average map, especially since TR's tend to be wonky sometimes. (Can't tell you how many times I've been hit with Starstruck while not hearing a TR.)
However, I'll also say that Impossible Skill Check Doctor, or any of the top, decent Killers played by someone good with full slowdown builds. (Nothing against good players playing like Blight with full meta builds, but God it can be just so hard for even SWFs to even compete, let alone solo players and non-4 man SWFs.)
For bonus too, I'll say my favourite things to run as Killer.
-> Sloppy, Thana, BBQ and Devour together on Spirit. Gives decent game slowdown if you can keep up pressure, encourages healing (which gives everyone more points!) and the solo Devour plays can get funny while not being too overly invested in it.
-> Make Your Choice Legion. I don't know why, but it's really funny to insta-down a full health Survivor with Legion- even if they don't heal very often.
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Why do people like bagels?
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@gatsby said:
As long as there are no key or BNPs.
Your chosen Killer is Blight, Nurse, Spirit, Pyramid Head, Twins or Huntress.
And you run perks from this list: BBQ, Tinkerer, Pop, Ruin, Undying, Corrupt, Sloppy, Infectious or Thrilling.
At high ranks at least, this should get a pretty reliable 3-4k every time.
The second you start to deviate from this list your chances of winning decrease substantially and you become a lot more vulnerable to SWFs and general gen rushing.
It’s weird because the easiest way to lose as Killer is creativity
It's true. I'd even go farther to argue though that the list could even be extended with more Killers if we only assume average maps (So no Hawkins, Haddonfield, Midwitch, Cowshed, etc.). Add that in with a few more perks and I think some other Killers could be a major threat too, especially since most SWFs are... well, just that- Survivors playing with friends.
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It depends. I try to ease up on them a bit, but there are some games where you'll ease up and they still just won't do anything or will take so long to do it that you can practically feel yourself aging- games like that or games where they just made super major mistakes, I usually won't ease up. (Great example being the game I had a few days ago where they popped a gen literally right next to my Devour totem while I was playing Spirit, and while everyone was exposed, but they didn't cleanse it. Or when they unhook in my face or try to BM- then you signed your own death warrant lol.)
I'll normally give hatch though to the weakest member- especially if they just kept getting screwed over by teammates who wouldn't take hits for them or would try to leave them to die. (Like a Jake I had the otherday- his team wouldn't take a hit for him while he was injured, and would leave him to do a gen alone while he was injured and dead on hook and they were full health. Jake still tried to do gens though and even popped one in my face, so I let him go- turns out he was like rank 18 and only had one perk.)
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That is how meta works: many of the same few perks are used more then others.
Trust me, I'd love to see more perk variety overall too on all Killers and Survivors, but some perks will always be stronger then others, and will be used more because of it.
Still tho, imho it's not awful. Blight is a really well balanced Killer. The issue with versing him is just the same with many good Killers- to get a game against him where you get a 2 man out, you either need to have a good, coordinated team with a decent map (The first of which is already hard to come by in solo queue), the Blight to get some super unlucky totem spawns, or him to make some major mistakes, like letting someone run him for too long.
He just suffers from the same issue as a lot of really strong Killers- their best counterplay is buying time for your team to do gens, which is a hard sell when you're playing Solo Queue- and when many Survivors normally want to at least attempt a few secondary objectives- like heals, chests, totems, etc for archives and points- and all lack the coordination needed to do extremely well against a good Blight.
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@kyogul said:
People really need to stop making this about Spirit.
It's now another useless perk that no one's going to use. Instead of reworking Stridour to have some other useful effect (even if it doesn't synergise with Spirit anymore), they made it useless across the board.
On top of that, they now made a survivor meta perk that's ran almost every game even stronger. Iron Will basically grants invisibility to all killers when injured. And considering how broken sounds are in this game--like the many inconsistent times you can't hear foot steps or silent slugs--you now just gave survivors the ability to be invisible and killers have no counter. Not even Freddy who has add ons for it. This effects more than just Spirit.
People want to ######### about Stridour Spirit but act like survivors getting invisibility for being injured is a good thing? Them getting a reward for getting hit in chase, something that is not a goal to happen? And killers getting yet again punished for performing well in chase?
Weird.
I wouldn't say it grants invisibility by any means.
Unless you're running Lucky Break with it, you still leave Scratch Marks and blood trails. To add to it, if you're running around the entire game injured with Iron Will, the second you get caught out of position by the Killer, it's most likely going to be a down unless you have SB ready. (And, even then, we've been seeing more and more Killers that are leagues better in a 1v1 compared to 1v4..)
Idk, I agree that they should have done a bigger change with Stridor, but I don't think the two should have interacted as they did in the first place- because it didn't make sense. People on the forums have been arguing for years that Stridor doesn't counter Iron Will because of the text, but the way everything was set up, it didn't work how it said. I think Iron Will is fine as it is, and I don't think it should receive any changes just because sounds constantly break on both sides. (Seriously, I've had my fair share of silent slugs and no footsteps, but I've also had my fair share of getting hit with Starstruck from the other side of the map because the Killer is running Agitation, but I had no way to know it was coming because I couldn't hear a terror radius.) That's another issue on it's own.
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To me, it's just letting other people play the game.
Perks don't matter. Sure, I'm not a big fan of 4 slowdown perks on Spirit or something insane like that, but nothing is worse than playing Killer or Survivor and not being able to do anything. All of your chases lasting 2 seconds because the Killer has decided it's time to camp and tunnel you to death, or your teammate deciding to farm you and the Killer going after you, while no gens are being worked on. (And the Killer trying their best to make it as slow as humanly possible.) Or, as Killer, the Survivors needlessly bm-ing and just sitting on gens all game, with no desire to do other objectives- or even having a fun chase, because they just want to hold the w key.
Pretty much, I think you can do whatever and play whatever. Some Killers aren't as fun to face as others, and that's different from person to person. (But I don't think that should be stopping someone from playing a Killer, because the fact is, a lot of Killers have been made recently with strong 1v1's in mind, to the point where many kinda just... shut them down at this point, so don't let it stop you from playing them.) Play whatever perks you want. Just... give whoever you're facing time to breath and try to have fun too. If a Killer is struggling, don't just sit on gens. Do other objectives, or try to meme with a fellow Survivor. If the Survivors are struggling, take a step back and let them recoup a little and at least try to get some BP. Imho, a game might not be the funnest thing in the world against a Deathslinger, but I'll take a game with a casual Deathslinger over a game with a camping and tunneling Bubba any day.
(And obviously, I know camping and tunneling is required at like, tournament level, and is necessary in some games, and I don't think anyone should be wronged for doing it at like, no gens left, but if it's 5 gens left and you're camping/tunneling someone out... yeah, that's a problem.)
But that's just me. Perks are whatever. Might not always be fun to verse, but whatever. Killers are whatever. Not all will be fun to face, but whatever. If I have to play 'sit around a spend more of the night doing nothing because I can't play the game' simulator, instead of DBD, that's when I get annoyed and stop having fun.
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@FancyMrB said:
I am not a very good killer ^^" By that I mean I am not very good at playing them, but that doesn't stop me! I am just here to have fun and enjoy playing both sides.
The tldr; learning Nemmy - got stomped by swf - not being toxic and clearly learning - title question.
Anyways I am learning to play Nemesis so I guess you can say I'm extra bad right now hahaha. I got into a match which I assume was a swf and 3 gens were done before I got my first down. No worries its just practice.
I go to hook that survivor and 2 other survivors come and body block the hook from me. By the time I got to the hook and punched them each once the other survivor wiggled free. Clicky clicky but dance ensued. Oof. Felt bad.
I wasn't being toxic, I even brought cake, and it must have been clear that I wasn't very good :P So why the body block? Worst case I would have gotten 1 more survivor hooked. It was clear they were the winners. Plus, don't we all get more bloodpoints for hooking and unhooking?
Anyways, I see a lot of 'killers suck and play toxic' threads and wanted to share my match experience. When I play my stronger Killers I adjust my play depending on the survivors. If there is a DC then I play extra soft so the match can go on but its not a steam roll. You get my point ^^
So my question is, as a Survivor do you ever dial back your play style if you notice a Killer is new/ learning? Or do you feel you always gotta be kicking but and going full throttle since there are a lot of toxic killers out there?
(I am not saying body blocking is bad btw, it has a time and place, but after that experience the match was done for me. The 4th gen popped and they made it clear hooking wasn't going to happen so I went to admire the zombies (which are totally wonky btw ^^"))
Thanks for reading!
Me and my buds always go easy on them. I don't go easy in chase, because I believe that if you do, then they won't learn- but we already don't just sit on gens all game and do a lot of side objectives, so we'll normally just mess around a lot more. Again though, I won't go easy in chase.
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You have to do gens to generate pressure as a Survivor. And at the very least, I as a Survivor main, am confident in my ability to both evade and run the Killer while injured, since I'm a lover of the Spine Chill Resilience combo. I'll heal if I have a medkit, if we have decent pressure, Inner Strength, or if a teammate has a heal build- but most of the time, at least in the solo queue games I've played, there are a ton of teammates who just don't care about healing you, or want to try to heal you in absolute deadzones, where you'd be better off taking your chance injured on a gen.
(Plus, it depends on the Killer or Survivors you're versing. Obviously, healing verses Legion is p useless, but you wanna stay healed against like Oni, Stridor Spirit, Hit & Run Wraith, and Twins. Then things like Myers in T3 you want to stay injured, because you're exposed anyway- or Devour Hope instadowns, Plague sickness, etc. On the flipside though, healing with Self Care takes ten years- even longer with Sloppy being so common. Medkits are great, but only last so long. Inner Strength is pog, but perks like Solidarity and Secondwind are hard to get value out of. Teammates will sometimes refuse to heal you, or only want to heal in deadzones because they don't understand that it can be even more dangerous then just healing in a safe structure. Other teammates will straight up throw the game if you don't heal them immediately, even if you're like 75 on the first gen with Prove Thyself and the Killer already has two hooks. Along with this, solo queue players can't coordinate, so experienced ones will just sit on gens, because then they know someone is putting out pressure.)
Idk, my point is that Survivors have to do gens to get out any sort of pressure, where as depending on the Killer, rank, and confidence of Survivors, the Killer creates a lot more pressure by existing. It's dangerous to try to finish a gen in Bubba's face. Entering Hag's web is a death wish. Slugging causes pressure, and is quite common. Camping and tunneling are also becoming common place, and that's even more pressure. Hooks create pressure.
Survivors only have gens. Healing helps, but if gens aren't getting done, it's not hard for a Killer to slowly wittle everyone down.
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@HollowsGrief said:
While I do not consider Tru one of the top killers (he is solid but nothing special) he is in fact right about game balance for the most part. At the highest level of play the game falls apart, it's impossible to win unless your killer can ignore literally every defense survivors get. The game is not balanced around high level SWFs and as such they will always dominate the game.
I mean, is that really such a terrible thing though when you consider things like the fact that the amount of players that are even close to that level of skill or coordination to play like that (let alone do it outside of scrims with their team.) is extremely low? I mean, it's not like DBD has a super big tournament/comp scene, even if people try to say it does. (Sure, there are some tournaments here and there, but the amount of players that are actually in those teams and or even close to that level is extremely low.) It's not like every SWF you face is that level of coordinated, or every Killer you face is a god-tier Nurse.
Idk, I just don't think balancing around the top percentage of the game is an option. It's boring. Survivors finish gens too fast for that, and unless they added comms, solos will never have the coordination needed to pull off half of what a SWF this coordinated would do. (Besides, I think a lot of the community agree that they enjoy chase in this game- be they a Killer or Survivor main. Might just be me, but I think the game would die if you'd be lucky to get a chase in a game as Survivor, and as both sides the only way to play chases is to play the two Killers that pretty much eliminate Chases by having them last for 2 seconds, since both killers pretty much ignore Survivor input and ignores fun mind games and fakes.)
Idk, I've just always thought this whole 'Top down balance' wouldn't work for DBD.
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Personally, I'm pretty okay with our current gen regression perks. I think it's hard to be at Ruin or Pop level, while not being overbaring to play against. (Which, let's be real, Ruin and Pop can be hard for solo teams to play against sometimes- depending on totem spawns and how hard a killer defends a 3 gen- but the two both have viable counters.)
Personally, I actually like running Thana with Sloppy for general regression. Sure, it doesn't regress gens immediately or anything, but I like that you do get rewarded for playing well, and that there's a risk-reward aspect for the Survivor- Spend the time healing up, giving the Killer more time but making the slow-down not so bad and regaining a health state, or try and sit on gens at 1 health state with slower gen speeds.
Idk, I'm weird with straight gen regression perks as a whole.
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I never played much Billy before the changes (I'm not a fan of high-mobility Killers like him, Oni, and Blight. They all leave me really disoriented...) but I do think that he needs an add-on pass. Too many of his add-ons have bad/no/little effect that don't boost his base kit enough compared to similar Killers. (Again, Oni and Blight, who both have overall decent add-ons, especially compared to what some Killers have.)
And at least for me, I don't mind the Overheat mechanic. I haven't seen any Billy that isn't a potato actually Overheat (or if they do, it's so rare it basically doesn't exist.) I think the big issue is more so just Billy himself. In playing against him, his saw feels super inconsistent. I can't tell you how many times a Billy will somehow 'Miss' me with his saw (that 100% looked like it hit me) multiple times in a game. (I've literally stopped and given Billys a free down because the game had robbed them out of so many before on me and I feel bad.) On the flip side, I've also had saws that will hit me from a decent chunk off from where I was- and if either of these issues are common, (which they seem to be, from what I've seen playing vs Billy) I can see why playing him is frustrating.
Tbh I think him and Ghostie both need add-on passes and some help. (I bring Ghostface up because they both have super similar issues and I'd love to see them both get played some more and get some more love.)
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SWF is not half as OP as a lot of people make them out to be. People just need to be more willing to learn their mistakes and where they went wrong when playing Killer versus those groups.
(I should note, of course a super good, hyper coordinated SWF are the most OP thing in this game, as tournament squads and top tier SWFs prove, but they're such a small minority, and I think people give the term 'SWF' way more power then it really has in most games.)
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@Avilgus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2232091#Comment_2232091
" Active trap on the shack window - ruine is near the sacrificial tree - he run tinkerer, spirit furry and bamboozle - there is a key in the basement chest...)
It's not that big for sure.
...You still need to play well, and the perks you listed are going to be things that are probably going to be shown off pretty quickly anyway.
Information doesn't magically give Survivors the key to escape every game. Sure, it helps, but they still need to be either decent at chases or evasion (usually both) and have good coordination. And even against a SWF group, the chances of you having not made a single mistake that game that you can look back on and try to improve is pretty low.
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2252771#Comment_2252771
That spirit counterplay guide is gonna work perfectly in comp settings but probably can't be applied to public games, making it null and void.
It's a casual game, not a competitive one. I really don't trust competitive people in terms of which killers can be countered easily when all of them are coordinated rush squads, which will literally counter every killer in dbd.
Yeah, that's what I'm thinking as well! I just didn't want to completely disregard it before I see it.
I do agree though, I don't generally trust competitive players when it comes to balance- because of how they play, like you stated, and pretty much everyone agrees that it's a boring thing to both play and play against. Imho the game would die if we moved to balancing around the competitive scene lol.
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You know some other, really good strong killers with counterplay?
Oni, Blight, Huntress, Wraith, Freddy, Pyramid Head, even Nurse to some degree. (Definitely less counterplay then the others, but still some options in the 1v1.)
The counterplay to Spirit's 1v1?
Running 2-3 perks (Spine Chill, Lucky Break and Ironwill) and hoping that she's bad and doesn't know how to do short phases, doesn't have Stidor if you're only running one of those perks, throwing down every pallet asap, and attempting scratch mark jukes (which, again, is hoping the Spirit is bad at short phases or just doesn't do them, and only goes for long phases.)
Meanwhile, the Spirit can pretty much stand still and do nothing to win a 1v1. And it's kinda not fair for the Survivors to have to bring 3 perks to hope to counter one killer, nor is it fair for Survivors to get no decent counterplay in the 1v1, considering that it's the only chase interactions they get, and many SWFs (and obviously solos) don't want 5 minute long games where they just hold m1 on gens. They want to have fun with their buds or relax and play some DBD, not sweat bullets to hope to Survive against a Spirit. (Especially since beating her requires coordination that Solo Survivors and anything under a 4 man group aren't gonna have...)
Add all of that in with her insane add-ons and the fact that not every Survivor group you face is going to be a hardcore death squad (or that solos can't even hope to be the level of team they need to be to beat a good Spirit.) and she's just not fun or healthy for the game. I know I personally don't want her nerfed to the ground, but I do want to be able to play her without knowing most Survivors won't be able to do anything against me either.
(And I know Xeno said on Twitter he's making a Spirit counterplay guide, and I'll definitely watch it when it comes out but... I don't really have the highest of hopes it'll be the counterplay we've been asking for. I'm willing to see it out, and I hope it is what we want, but I just don't know if it's going to be things most players can use in Solo games to give themselves a fighting chance versus Spirit.)
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@brokedownpalace said:
In the new Halloween, which ignores every movie but the first, the story was changed so that Michael and Laurie are not related (not a spoiler, it's mentioned casually early in the movie). So I think he just hates that she's The One That Got Away.
I'm too lazy to boot up the game (if it even says it in their bios).
I believe this Michael and Laurie is based more on the first two original movies in 1978 and 1981, respectively. (At least, at base. I say this because there's an Add-On or two Myers has that's a nod to somethings from the book that John Carpenter helped write, which I believe is a supplement to the first movie, and we know that 2 is also considered Cannon in that light.)
So I believe they are related, however I've personally always figured with this version of Myers, it's more because she's the only person he (presumably) knows from stalking her and her friends (since we don't know when exactly the Entity took him) or because she was the last person to find things, making her a loose end to clean up- and less because he knows she's his sister. (That's just me tho, everyone has their own take.)
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@Pulsar said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2206380#Comment_2206380
I've honestly never seen that happen.
I've never had someone say "i tunneled you because you were Nea"
It hasn't happened to me in a hot second, but I do remember back before cross-play having games on both PC and Console where they would state in either post-game chat or DM's that they tunneled me for playing Nea specifically, back when I played her regularly. Granted, this was also back during Noob3's peak, and again, haven't had it happen to me in a long time, but I have had it happen to me and friends in the past, so I wouldn't be shocked if some people still do it today, even if they're very few and far between. I also know someone who literally plays the Fashion Police as Killer, so I wouldn't be surprised if others have gotten killed/killed because of cosmetic choices. (I also know someone who still brings Moris for any Blendette he sees in his lobby, and he's been doing that since long before the Mori nerfs.)
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@Pulsar said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2206018#Comment_2206018
I've got a ton of hours and I've never been tunneled for wearing an outfit.
Man, I have like 2k hours and I can't tell you how many times me playing a Survivor like Nea has gotten me tunneled or killed just for my Survivor choice making the killer want to camp or tunnel. It's not an issue I face very often since I'm normally playing Jake or Steve (And like... who hates Jake and Steve??? They're not played very often.) but I've had my fair share of games where that's happened for playing a popular character.
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You know, as soon as I saw this video, I knew this same discussion would pop up.
All the video showed is how good those Survivors are at looping, and how pallet RNG is wild at Cowshed. (Also, you know, Otz following through with the Meme.)
He was playing a Killer with no perks and not able to use his power. (Survivors also couldn't use perks, which also changes the game.)
If you want to see an example that's closer to what you might actually see in game, Dowsey did the same video, but could actually use powers and two perks.
It's almost like Killers have their powers to help make them stronger then the Survivors. 🤔
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It could just be that both newer killers are odd and unpredictable in chase, and that newer killers you face and escape against probably aren't going to be putting out great pressure, and didn't chase you all game.
At least, that's an issue I've noticed recently in pipping- a lot of games where you will blank/de-pip from either getting chased all game or not ever seeing the killer.
Ranks are funky tho, I wouldn't trust 'em.
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Uhh... no? His T3 does it's job of stalling the game pretty well already, and with Doctor's amazing Anti-Loop potential, and the fact his blast makes it so you can't just stealth, he's a great Killer. Imho the only reason you don't see him more is because he's not easy to learn, and he's not talked about half as much as other killers.
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Oh most definitely. The grind for this game is terrible, and while it's not a terrible way to keep players invested, I think it's too harsh of a grind, especially when you factor in the fact that archives are also a thing. Idk, I'm okay with shards taking a bit of a grind, but BP being such a big one is a bit of a hard sell for me.
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The issue is that there's nothing to truly solve. Camping and Tunneling are parts of thr game, and they are viable, whether we like it or not.
Imho, they just need to encourage not camping or tunneling with more, great perks like Devour or BBQ. They also need to give the Survivor a better bonus in BP (not Points for Pips, BP only.) when camped or tunneled. Because, at least for me, the only reason I get grumpy over being camped or tunneled is two reasons (Besides, well, it being boring): When it feels unnecessary, because the killer had been doing well without it. (Subjective, and something I can get over.) And, because I'll be lucky if I can even get 10k BP. Give Survivors more BP when they're camped or tunneled because they couldn't do anything about it, and I don't think as many of your casual Survivors would complain about it half as much.
(Also, I just wanna point out that there's really no counter to camping or tunneling outside of perks, since I see people bring up this idea of 'Countering' it in every thread. The only counters to it are not getting downed/hooked in the first place, or trying to do gens asap. You can bring perks like BT or DS to help extend your chase, or Camraderie to help extend the camp for your team, but if a killer wants to camp or tunnel you, they're going to do it, and as a Survivor, you can't stop it. And, if anything, you can even argue that DS could use a bit more help trying to push away from tunneling bc of the fact it only works once currently.)
Idk, camping and tunneling are definitely necessary evils, and I don't think there's anything that can stop how crappy it feels, but I do think giving killers more perks to encourage not doing it giving Survivors extra BP when it happens if they had no chance to play because of it would at least help it a little.
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Tbh, I agree with what your saying, but I think the reason why these foruns and discussions are the way they are is a few reasons:
- There's a lot of frustrating things in this game, for both sides. And bringing up issues here on the threads, where the Devs actually will respond sometimes, means you have a chance of your complaints being heard. Posting your complaints here can also lead to you getting good criticism about how to play, or other people who agree with you and a genuine discussion on what should be fixed. (Though, obviously a discussion on whether or not something like NOED or Spirit needs a change are obviously a lot more heavily debated then people who are calling for Ghostface nerfs or Chest Nerfs, which leads to my next point...)
- Some issues are hot-button issues that the community doesn't agree upon, and they can be interesting to discuss. Everyone has something to say on whether or not Spirit is balanced and needs changed, or if Undying really needed a Nerf, or other big balance topics, so they get more views and discussion, and get noticed more. To add to that...
- This one is a little more personal, but I think still related- queues being mixed causes major issues when it comes to how people perceive the other side, causing major misconceptions and causing generalisations. Mix that with post-chat toxicity, and there's a bit of a rift between the two and an almost 'Us vs Them' mentality because of it- when, in reality, those things are more so born from bad games and what happens when you mix every type of player into one queue. (Because like, this game is wild with that. One match you might be against a full, 4 man Sabo No Mither group, and the next you might be against a tournament-ready squad with full meta builds.) This back and forth between 'Killer Main' and 'Survivor Main' or 'Casual' versus 'Competitive' players just cause major rifts in the community, where there's almost a superiority thing that happens because of it. (I mean, seriously, how many times have people used the term 'You're probably a Survivor main' or 'You're just bad' here on the forums because you don't agree with them? I think it's a superiority thing...)
- And the biggest one, these issues just get more views and discussion then other topics. Trust me, I'd love to see more topics here in general about Jayers or just shipping questions, or people's headcannons, or talking about their favourite builds, or suggesting some to each other- but they're just not as popular. Every time I see posts like that, they barely get any attention compared to other posts, making them forgotten. (And it is a genuine shame. I like talking about some parts of balance like everyone else, but man, you can only make so many posts on Spirit or NOED before you just don't want to see it any more.)
Idk, I think all of those play some role in it, some more then others. I think you can also make an argument for the fact that balance itself is just such a major topic amoung creators, which helps spread discussion around it- but tbh I don't think it's a major topic because of creators. Sure, they might help bring some things to light, but they're definitely not the only thing behind all the NOED posts.
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Uh... nothing in-game is toxic. Can players play a bit boring? Sure. Can they BM? Of course. Are there annoying things to play against on both sides? Definitely. Can some people be needlessly sweaty? Absolutely.
The only place you can actually be toxic though is a place like post game chat when you genuinely harrass other players. (Example being that someone states their opinion about a perk or strategy in the game, and then being told that they're 'Just bad' over and over again when they say that they don't like Ghostface for the inconsistent reveal mechanic, or being told that they deserve terrible things happen to them/no skill was required in playing Totem Defender Demogorgan on Ormond.) Otherwise, the only other things are exploits or cheats. That's it. Anything else (T-Bagging at every pallet, smacking Survivors repeatedly on hook, etc.) Are BM or genuine strats. (Like it or not, Dead Hard letting you get distance is working as intended. Like it or not, tunneling and camping are valid strats to use. Like it or not, full slowdown builds or full gen builds are allowed. That doesn't mean these things can't be boring as sin to play against, but saying that someone BM'd you because they used a Perk against you, or are toxic because they are running a full slowdown build just isn't right imho.)
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@LazyPayday said:
It's a useless Ultra-rare add-on for Pyramid Head for those who don't know.
1st Option:
When sending a survivor to a cage, all survivors not afflicted with torment will have their auras revealed to you for 6 seconds (encourages using your cages more often while also drastically increasing the use)
2nd Option:
When sending a survivor to a cage, all survivors afflicted with torment will have their auras revealed to you for 6 seconds. Hitting a survivor with punishment of the damned now afflicts them with torment (doesn't rely on the survivors playing stupid to get use out it, rewards you for landing a strike even more other than just one shotting)
I'm sorry, but I couldn't help but laugh from your post title. I'm an absolute gremlin for Transformers, and it got me thinking about Megatron or another Decepticon being a Killer in the game and how absolutely hilarious that would be for both lore and gameplay reasons. (Seriously, it would be absolutely hilarious to see someone like freakin' Dwight slam a pallet on Megatron's head during chase. I think I want that meme crossover like how I want the Barbie, Phineas and Ferb, and Kermit crossovers lol.
On the topic though, to correct you, the add-on your talking about is 'The Iridescent Seal of Metatron'. You might wanna try to change that- it would be really funny though if PH had an add-on that was just a seal with Megatron's face on it lol. (I'm sorry, I'm a really big Transformers fan and this is just a funny blast for me. I hope it doesn't come off as rude or anything.)
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I primarily play Survivor (Used to play both roles more, but I just don't have time anymore nor as much interest in Killer) and I 100% agree with this. Killers need to have better rewards and reasons not to camp and tunnel, especially when not necessary. (Because imho, that's probably where I personally get the most frustrated with tunneling or camping- when a Killer has been doing a great job maintaining pressure that game, has gotten a really good amount of hooks to gens, and then seems to decide that they now all of a sudden need to camp or tunnel, when they had been doing great with out it.)
Idk, I definitely think the strats are necessary, and Killers should be rewarded for not doing them to some degree (Just like how Survivors get p decent rewards for not ending the game in .2 seconds, as doing so won't net them as many points.), but I'm not quite sure what kind of bonus they should even really get besides extra BP or perhaps a modifier to make gatekeeper a bit easier to maintain, and reward you stronger for attempting to spread pressure to the gens more. (Obviously, that's just with the current pip system, which is quite... questionable for both sides.)