thesuicidefox
thesuicidefox
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@gantes said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1228382#Comment_1228382
Then add a totem counter. That's literally what people have been asking for for ages, and if the devs really want totems to be an instrumental part of survivor gameplay there's no reason there shouldn't be a counter.
As a survivor main I really don't want a totem counter.
However it could be part of a perk, probably Small Game or something. I'd be fine with that. But at base, no.
Alternatively instead of any kind of counter add some kind of map wide sound effect for when a dull is destroyed. Then you know when a totem is done but have to keep track yourself.
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But how will I scare the killer to think I offered a mori?
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This guy is such a... (types some things into urban dictionary)... noobling.
🤪
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This is actually EXACTLY what NOED was before it was a totem (and it was just infinite before that). The problem here is that survivors just hide until it goes away. Killer might get 1 person but the rest just wait, or even just outright leave the trial.
It didn't work then, probably won't work now especially with EGC.
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@xTalon32 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/145920/otzdarva-s-stream-today
Aside from the fact you're one of the most biased people on the forum to begin with, but let's ignore that and look at facts.
Yes, getting tunneled or camped sucks. No one likes having it done to THEM. But I guarantee every survivor has enjoyed a game where their team mate got tunneled/camped and they escaped. Popular opinion right now is unless every survivor has fun and "wins", that the game is killer sided because of their playstyles. Which is simply another opinion. Yeah, if I get 5 gens done and the killer has NoED it bugs me because of all that work and getting killed. But, IF totems had been done in the first place, REGARDLESS of time lost, it would NEVER activate. That's the trade off you make as a team or solo survivor when you decide to ignore totems.
But you also said he used NoED as backup and rarely even had to use it. So you've already set up your topic on a subject that doesn't cover "how NoED is overpowered" except to say it's OP because of proxy camping?
I'm all for listening to what you have to say, but can you show me evidence that NoED is used disproportionately to other perks on top of it being as overpowered as you believe? BHVR hasn't released that data, so all we have is isolated incidents. Because 1 - 1000 games isn't NEARLY enough data to say ONE perk is overpowered across the board. There are a lot of variables to consider when determining this.
In order to 100% say NoED is overpowered we need the data from all platforms. So that means the data of every game where the killer used NoED. But we'd need to filter out every game where it failed to activate. Suppose we do that, we'd need to factor in the people killed BEFORE NoED activated, whether it was destroyed, etc etc etc.
I'm all for change, but I want that change to be backed by actual fact. But since BHVR isn't, and likely won't provide that data, we can't come to any real conclusions about any of this. At least none that have the amount of data required.
The argument is that, with 1 survivor sitting on hook you simply don't have the time to do 5 gens AND 5 totems. As someone that plays mostly SWF I can say this is definitely true even if you are communicating. Of course, it depends how quickly the first person is caught. If the killer is a GF, for example, they can catch the first survivor quick because of the surprise factor. Once we know it's a GF we know what to do, but it usually means someone is getting jumped and hit for free to find out. Unless they come for me first because I always run Spine Chill, but that's a 1 in 4 chance.
A hook is 2 minutes. It takes 80 seconds base to do a gen, 14 to do a totem (for 70s total). If we assume that 1 survivor is being chased/camped/whatever and the other 3 are split up, they can do 1 gen and 1 totem in 100 seconds (94 technically but we need to be practical and say there is some travel time from one to the next). That leaves 2 gens and 2 totems with 20 seconds left on the hook. Mathematically, it is IMPOSSIBLE to do all objectives in the time it takes someone to die on a hook. Now obviously they won't start the game on a hook, so if we are generous and add 60s to survivor time for the chase, that gives 180 seconds before that survivor is dead. Now the other survivors have 80 seconds to do 2 gen and 2 totems, which can be done if 2 survivors group up on a gen and 1 does a gen solo, then the 2 survivors rush the last 2 totems after (post 3.7) 48 seconds, giving them roughly 15 seconds to spare before the last gen pops to run to the gate. In theory that would all be fine, but in practice you have to consider the time it takes to move from one objective to the next, the time it takes to search every nook and cranny for totems, and how long the actual chase lasts. 60s is a good chase. If it's any shorter, they won't get everything done even in the most theoretical optimal conditions. And since we know no survivor group can be perfectly optimal, it means absolutely NO survivor group can get all the objectives done in the time it takes to chase and camp 1 survivor out of the game. Therefore, all a killer needs to do to secure at LEAST a 2k is to use NOED, camp the first survivor to death, and profit. This is assuming survivors play the game absolutely perfectly too, which is impossible, which means any killer that does this tactic will walk out with a 3k in a vast majority of their games (which Otz seems to haven proven).
Also I've escape plenty of games that I didn't have fun. I've died plenty of games where I had fun. Escaping is not always a prerequisite of having fun. I had a game against a Myers than camp/tunneled my friend because she's a streamer, then tried to meme with the rest of us. He was a scumbag, literally messaged her to tell her he did it because she is streaming (and stream sniped BTW). I sent him an EZ after he drop reset me and let me go because he deserves it for being a prick. I did not have fun that game I will tell you that much.
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Anything where you press m1/RT/R2(?) is a basic attack.
Nurse, Spirit, Wraith, Hag, and Deathslinger always perform basic attacks because it's done after using their power.
Pig's Ambush, Demo's Shred, Oni's Demon Strike, and Legion's Frenzy attacks are NOT basic attacks because they are done as part of their power.
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On topic, I can see both sides.
For me I'm to a point where I just expect NOED most of the time unless I can confirm otherwise (killer has shown 4 perks? no NOED). Whether I play solo or SWF (which is mostly the latter) it's always a factor in the game. A lot of the time if I'm playing solo and my team is doing a good job on gens, I just go totem hunting. Even if they did totems, you can still see them destroyed so I just go around and make sure I get them all. Sometimes I don't and NOED still happens, but in my experience at high ranks on Xbox if that is the case the other survivors either leave, or find the totem (assuming it's not in the most ideal spot). If the killer hard tunnels the first guy they caught that's usually dead giveaway they have NOED, so I either try to find totems (not actually DO them, just keep track of where they are so I can take out the NOED when it lights up) or rush gens and just leave. Generally NOED is not very effective at high ranks, SWF or solo.
I have 2 smurf accounts though, and I will say that a LOT of low rank killers get away with kills they definitely should not have gotten because of NOED. They do pretty much exactly what Otz did, camp, tunnel, NOED. Some of them don't even try to hid it, they just stand at the hook and wait. Never do survivors just do gens and leave, they ALWAYS try to save. And they usually die. Thankfully for them, I was in their game and know what this is and what to do (usually with another friend of mine also) so the results aren't always a 4k, but they sure would be if it was a group of actual low rank survivors. [BTW I want to make it clear I'm not a bully. I let the killer kill me at the end if they didn't get anyone. I don't rush gens or even do gens sometimes, all I do is try for chases and memes. I have these accounts for silly non-tryhardy games and also because I have friends that don't play the game nearly as much as me and are legit rank 15's and such. It's not fair to them if I play my main account and we get rank 1 killers, it's barely fair if we get a rank 10 killer, so don't hate on me.]
So there is definitely truth to both arguments. I personally feel like NOED should have some sort of tell (outside of the killer behavior) so that survivors can pick up on it and slow down. The game could also do with some extra protection on the first guy hooked, but for that to happen there also needs to be some mechanic to prevent gen rushing at the start of the game (something akin to @ScottJund "early game warm up" suggestion, though I wouldn't go with his exact idea because I feel it's janky and potentially exploitable, but we do need something that is basically EGC for the start of the game). That would lessen the negative impact of NOED without needing to change the perk itself too much.
IDK it's a tricky situation. If you gut NOED then you just leave open the flood gate for unadulterated gen rushing. If you don't gut NOED, then a lot of low rank killers get freebies.
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@coppersly said:
TBH until they change the objective and make it actually take brainpower and therefor more time, we need something to counter 3 minute games.
I don't use NOED myself as a Nurse main, but I get why it needs to be in the game right now. It's the only chance some killers get if they go against meta teams from bad matchmaking.
There is a thing in psychology called system 1 VS system 2, or fast VS slow thinking, that applies HEAVILY to video games. Here is a video explaining it...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4-EyNJhcQ8&t=4s&ab_channel=Core-AGamingBasically you NEED those system 1 mechanics so that system 2 can handle other stuff. In DBD, doing a gen is system 1. It's easy and braindead to actually do the objective. The system 2 part of the equation comes in doing they gen while trying to avoid the killer, or what gens to do, or whatever else is going on in the game. If you change gens to a system 2 function, and there is no system 1, you destroy the flow of the game and make it much much harder to play survivor at the cost of not actually making it more fun (because doing gens isn't the fun part of the game). The game gets boring because you have to expend all this energy to do a gen AND run from the killer AND do pretty much everything else in the game. Skill checks add a little bit of system 2 into the equation so doing a gen (or healing) isn't 100% mindless, but it's mainly a system 1 process. Trust me when I say no one will want to play survivor if they have to try while doing a gen. It's boring AF, the fun part is being chased by the killer (which is already a system 2 process).
Your suggestion would literally kill the game.
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Small update on results...
Things turning out different than I expected. Believe it or not a few are completely 50/50!
How long should I leave it up tho? 🤔
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"Queue times for survivor on Xbox are already stupid long"
This is why you got matched with them. They probably waited 20 minutes to get your game, and you were just unlucky to start a search when they were next in the queue.
I'm rank 1 killer I get rank 10's and lower sometimes. It happens. You got 2 though, with baby perks (as in not tier 3), AND one had a key, so props at least. Every green rank killer that gets my 4 man rank 1 SWF can't even get 1 kill.
PS. Also a lot of rank 1 survivors I know have at least 1 smurf account, so even if you got survivors close to your ranks there is a decent chance they are smurfs on Xbox. I have 2. I don't bully killers tho, I just mess around, help the random ACTUAL rank 13's or whatever escape then let the killer kill me. I mean, someone is gonna do them dirty, might as well be me then I give 'em a freebie. Good practice for when you face the toxic ones that will try to bully you and make you hate it.
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WYM the game features babies already.
If killing babies isn't enough for you then... you have problems man.
@Dzeikor said:
think this is the dummest question I saw on this forum and I saw a lot
Sounds like a challenge.
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Geez the responses in this thread are gross. Guy had an idea people need to chill.
I think it would be a good idea for the sole reason it adds a tell to NOED that astute survivors can spot and realize the killer has NOED. I mean, the whole point of NOED is not to get a one shot when gates are powered, it's to threaten survivors with the fact that you have it so they slow down on gens and do totems. I'd take slower gens over a one shot at end game any day.
That said, gate spawns need a fix anyway. They should never spawn too close or too far. There really needs to be a min/max distance. It sucks as killer when the gates are clear on opposite ends of the map, and it sucks for survivors when one gate is in full view of another gate. Case and point...
thesuicidefox playing Dead by Daylight: Special Edition at XboxClips.coSo because of that I'd say no to specifically this, however adding some kind of tell to NOED would be nice. What that could be IDK.
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Guys you don't need to post your responses here. I mean you can if you want I guess but I was hoping y'all would just do the thing and share it then I show off some nifty pie charts, we all laugh, then someone calls me a camper and the thread gets closed.
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Premonition + Flashlight
Find them, uncloak them, free Evader points.
Also if you suspect an AFK Wraith don't gen rush. Doing that will make you depip. Just go around and 99 all the gens, do all the totems, do all chests, sabo hooks (for BP). The reason you depip is because you rush 3/4 gens and then there isn't enough Lightbringer to go around.
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I hid the results to make the end more fun xD
Share all you want guys!
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Only 6 responses so far but the results are... interesting.
I'll keep it open for a bit, IDK however long. Then I'll report back with the final results.
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@Rattman said:
Human killers are scarier, cause they are more believable. In a way, group of stabby kids are more scary than an Onryo. Not only because they are more likely to exist, but also because everyone around you can potentially evolve into something similar. The darkness among us, man.
Without giving too much away, my killer is entirely believable. Nothing supernatural at all, and it is based on a VERY REAL primal fear every human has. Though there is some sciencey stuff going on, it's mostly just for the backstory and the thing itself could still be a very real killer without it. The sciencey stuff just turns it up to 11 is all.
I've faced one (sort of) before and trust me, it is absolutely terrifying. I was lucky it didn't want to actually kill me.
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I've heard of this. It only exists on PC, we have no such bug on Xbox. I feel for PC Spirit's honestly.
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Spirit. She can't be looped like Billy and she is harder to predict.
@ClickyClicky said:
Billy.
Map traversal for a start. 176% speed on Spirit vs 230% speed on Billy. Also Billy has no cooldown so he can hook a survivor, zoom across the map in seconds, scare another survivor off it and Pop the gen, then sprint back to the hook. Spirit has a cooldown and a meter so she can only make it part way across the map and then goes on a 15 second cooldown before she can phase walk again.
Then there is the fact that he has unlimited instadowns. From the start of the trial until the very end he can one hit survivors as many times as he likes.
Billys only weakness is if you get 4 amazing loopers as survivors but thats rare and you can use perks to cover that up a bit. In your average game Spirit can likely get hits easier but Billys snowball is much stronger.
Billy might be faster, but Spirit has way more control over her movement.
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Let's also discuss Hawkins, or as I like to call it HawkWINS (also HawkEZforTheKillerBecauseItsSoSmallAndVeryEasyToForceThreeGenGNARGNARGNARGNARkins).
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@SpaceCoconut said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1222900#Comment_1222900
Why are you performing unsafe unhooks in the basement while the killer is nearby instead of waiting for them to move away?
Probably because the killer won't ever move away and therefore your only option is to go for an unsafe rescue and attempt some other method of getting the survivor out alive.
I've camped basement hooks plenty of times because it's a huge advantage. You force them to make an unsafe rescue so you have more chance to catch another survivor.
I thought you were a killer main, you should know this. WHY LEAVE when you can force them into a bad position?
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@Feiten said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1225731#Comment_1225731
I Wanna hear more about it!.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1225718#Comment_1225718
I Get that but I also find survivors would be on edge more with something just kinda crawling or hobbling around
Maybe someday. I wanna get some artwork for it before I show it off.
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I have a design for a... non-humanoid killer that would be both the strongest and highest skill cap killer in the game by 100 miles. It'd also be super fun for boths sides IMO. I'd love to face this killer as survivor because it would be a real challenge. Plus I have this mechanic on this killer called "blood bath" which means survivors earn tons of BP against this killer, so then when you get bodied it's not so bad because you will die in 2 minutes but still walk out with like 20k BP.
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@DelsKibara said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1225675#Comment_1225675
I will say though, you have way more add-ons than I do and I play this game everyday.
So I just have to say "Share pls"
I main Spirit so I dump a lot of BP into her to get every perk. I used to main Huntress and did the same, but after some DLC's there are a couple perks I'm missing (nothing I care about though). I have about 3k hours and have been playing since the game came out on Xbox (I take long breaks though I should have probably twice that if I played every day).
By comparison, I main Kate and have her p3 50 all perks, yet I only have at MOST 15 Skeleton Keys and 10 Rainbow Maps. I've used all her offerings, I kept one of each of the maps, fog, coins, and luck though. I could play maybe 200 games with items and add-ons, but even if I dump all my BP back into her it's not gonna last forever. If I did this with Spirit, MDR/Amulet would last forever.
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Bruh, why you burnin' stuffs?
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Just to make a correction here...
Killers have 20 add-ons.
Survivors have 55 add-ons, and 18 items, for a total of 73 objects. Survivors also have 4 more offerings than killers.
That means the average killer bloodweb almost 4 times more likely to have the object you want to acquire than a comparable survivor bloodweb.
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@DelsKibara said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1225649#Comment_1225649
I feel like the accurate comparison would be keys.
And they are FAR MORE rare than anything on either killer or survivor.
I have 5 moris on Spirit alone and I havent levelled her up in ages but I only got 2 Skeleton Keys on Zarina and I've been trying to get all the perks onto her.
I have 30+ mori's on Spirit and Huntress, 35+ Iri Head on Huntress, and 40+ Mother Daughter Ring on Spirit.
If I wanted to dump BP back into that same killer after every game, and I run BBQ every game (which I usually do), I could play every single game from now until the end of time as MDR/Amulet Spirit, or Iri Head/Belt Huntress. It wouldn't even be a challenge.
This not including the 25+ Black Wards I have on each as well.
Doing this as survivor, however, is IMPOSSIBLE. You cannot play every game with even a brown medkit and the same add-ons. Even if you run WGLF and dump all your BP back into that survivor, eventually you will use up all your add-ons, and (through death) you will eventually lose all your medkits too. It's simple math when survivors have 73 possible objects to acquire while killers only have 20, AND killers earn way more BP on the average game than survivors, BBQ/WGLF or not.
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@DetailedDetriment said:
The only time I think add-ons should be kept is when charges aren't used. If my med-kit is at 100% then I shouldn't lose my medical scissors and abdominal dressings.
I agree with this. If you didn't fully use the item, you should keep add-ons if you escape. You should also keep them, death or escape, used or not, if you burn a White Ward.
@KingFrost said:
Styptics are just as gamechanging as most iri add-ons for killer.
You can get an Ebony at least once every other blood web guaranteed as p3 50 killer. Especially true if you play Huntress or Billy.
You'd be lucky to get a Styptic Agent once every 6 blood webs as p3 50 survivor.
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I agree. The lack of cross progression is what is stopping me from buying the game on PC right now. Also money, but that's a different story.
I wouldn't mind paying for the base game again, or even the DLC's really, but I don't want to lose my cosmetics nor do I want to lose all the progress I have on my killers/survivors. I made 2 alt accounts on Xbox to play with friends new to the game and starting over SUUUUUUUUCKS. And these are accounts I really don't even care to level up or get BP, but wow the grind is real for new players. Definitely not doing this again for an account I actually do care about.
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They feel better than last time, but there are still a lot of stupid things that happen. I was playing Billy and just passed through a survivor with my chainsaw and hit a wall. I've been hit from 10m away as survivor. One game I got booted after I got desync'ed and the killer downed me no where near where I actually was, I teleport downstairs when he picked me up, could not wiggle, then the game boots me and gives me a timeout for quitting. Complete BS.
I am happy for quit penalties but when the game ######### up and punishes you that's really ######### stupid.
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Oh hey here is an evil survivor build...
Traitor
- Object Of Obsession
- Bond
- Unbreakable
- Deliverance
- Sandbag other survivors by luring the killer to them. UB/Deliv are so you can save yourself because there is a high chance the others won't.
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You mean Dr. Mantis Tabogan?
Killer would 100% be Dennis.
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Shadow Walker (Spirit)
- Mother Daughter Ring
- Yakuyoke Amulet
- Shadowborn
- Stridor
- Ruin
- Surveillance
- MDR/Amulet combo is overpowered and allows for INSANE map pressure and chase potential. Shadowborn/Stridor make it impossible to hide. Ruin/Surv works great with add-ons as you will constantly be pushing survivors off gens. I have 4k 4/5 gen every game I've played this build (including Rotten Fields and Ormond), it's absolutely 100% overpowered. Okay well, ONE game ever they got to gates, but it was because I basically let them by meme-ing with a Dwight. Still got a 3k and stopped them from opening the gates, could have 4k'd if I cared to slug to find the Kate but I didn't care at that point.
Mother's Revenge (Spirit)
- Mother Daughter Ring
- Dirty Uwabaki
- Thrill Of The Hunt
- Haunted Grounds
- Devour Hope
- Retribution
- Full totem build. I actually haven't run this one yet since Deathslinger came out (I was using Ruin instead of Retribution) but it is seriously hard to beat. You just have to commit to stopping totems until you get at least 3 stacks on Devour.
Poker Face (Spirit) *Pre-nerf Prayer Beads
- Prayed Beads (No 'woosh' sound when phase walking)
- Bloody Hair Brooch
- Insidious
- Make Your Choice
- No One Escapes Death
- Stridor
- Face camp at any distance. Insidious procs on the husk, so combined with (old) Prayer Beads it mean you could stand still and survivors have 0 idea what you are doing. The plan would be to hook someone, move 32m away, turn around and wait. When you see someone run up start to phase, MYC procs, and you hit them almost right after they make the save (tricky because MYC procs on you not the husk). I was only able to play this a few times before PB nerf, but it was HELLA scary. Stridor and NOED are just there as insurance, not necessary to the build really.
Dream Catcher (old Freddy)
- Class Photo (See aura of all survivors when any survivor is in transition to fall asleep, +2s to transition time)
- Z Block (-2s to transition time)
- Dying Light (old)
- Ruin (old)
- Haunted Ground
- Play With Your Food
- Ivory/Ebony Mori
- This build required a mori to proc Dying Light ASAP. The plan goes like this... Use Class Photo to find the obsession quickly. NO YOU DO NOT WANT TO USE BLACK BOX. BB gives away what you are doing and survivors will rush gens and hide all game. Class Photo is better and has more value throughout the game, it is IMPOSSIBLE to hide from you. Z Block is there to make you look like a normal Freddy (because if it takes 9 seconds to fall asleep they will know you have Class Photo and hide in lockers). Ruin buys you time to catch the obsession. Haunted and PWYF help you catch the obsession faster. Haunted also adds protection to Ruin. Once you get a hook on the obsession, it's GG. Because of Class Photo, the other 3 survivors should always be asleep, and with old Dying Light active and asleep it will take 210.5 seconds to do a gen solo with no buffs (3 and a half minutes). Once you kill the obsession, there is no more doing gens, or healing. You have infinite time.
Class Reunion (old Freddy)
- Class Photo (See aura of all survivors when any survivor is in transition to fall asleep, +2s to transition time)
- Black Box (Obsession starts the trial asleep)
- Brutal Strength
- No One Escapes Death
- Rancor
- Remember Me (old)
- Shroud Of Seperation
- Full endgame build. Literally just chase the obsession all game. Let them DS you to get more stacks. Drop reset to get more stacks. Use Brutal to waste every pallet on the map. You want to chase the obsession until every gen is done. Shroud is there to spook them into gen rushing. Once the last gen pops, Rancor the obsession. If they have Adren even better, put them to sleep to see where the others are going. Once the obsession is dead, the game is over. They will most likely not get the gates (old Remember Me added 30 seconds) so no need for Blood Warden. Class Photo will help you find them all. Slug for an easy 4k, with 1 hook on everyone.
Forever Freddy By Calvin Klein (new Freddy)
- Swing Chains
- Jump Rope
- Dying Light
- Ruin
- Sloppy Butcher
- Thanatophobia
- Everything takes forever. Things are not as slow as Dream Catcher, but it's still pretty damn slow. Just remember to spread damage, keeping them injured and asleep.
Open Season (Huntress)
- Iridescent Head
- Infantry Belt
- Deerstalker
- Infectious Fright
- Knockout
- Nurse's Calling
- Cypress Mori
- Slug rush build. Iri Head is broken AF, and all you are doing it hitting them down and moving onto the next. Let them all bleed out, and mori the last one. Easy 4k depip. I've only done this build once and it's disgustingly OP.
Joker (Ghostface)
- Drop-Leg Knife Sheath
- Leather Knife Sheath
- Beast Of Prey
- Dark Devotion
- Insidious
- Tinkerer
- "Why can't I break his stalk?" build. Extra meme-y but also pretty evil because of how confusing it is.
EDIT: Added descriptions of old add-ons for those that may not know what they did.
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Sprin Burs is fer yeetin
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@Helevetin_nopee said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1221534#Comment_1221534
Aim acceleration is useless, however deadzone options would be good.
Aim acceleration is indeed not useless. It can substitute higher sensitivity without loss of fine aim.
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@DelsKibara said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1221592#Comment_1221592
I would say his spear acts the same as Huntress' hatchets. Except with his spear it's more or less about closing the gap and restarting the chase all over again rather than stopping someone from far away.
If you get hit, you get injured or downed. The results are the same with Huntress, just slightly different in execution. Old Legion requires you to do actually nothing except hit the survivor once and moonwalk. Deathslinger requires some pretty precise aiming (because the spear is a projectile, not a hitscan like Huntress' hitboxes), and it is limited to 18 meters in length. So it's not as powerful as Old Legion, and it is more reminiscent of Huntress as a projectile killer injuring you if you get hit with their weapon.
If you want to discuss it in the other thread we can. I'm going to bed though so I'll have to reply to you tomorrow (well today... but waaaaay later today).
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The problem is less solo vs SWF and more matchmaking. It is way too easy for potatoes to get to high ranks and be matched with players that actually know what they are doing. If you get one of these players it seriously hurts all the other survivors. This can be true in SWF as well, I've won games against 3/4 stacks purely because I found and exploited the weakest link and they fell like a house of cards. And to further contrast, I've been in games with 4 solos where we are all TRUE rank 1's and completely decimated the killer without any communication because we all knew what to do and when to do it.
There is also the issue of boosted killers getting matched against opponents WAY beyond their skill despite their ranks being close. I've ended games and looked at the scoreboard only to say to myself "how are you a rank 2 killer?!?". Lot's of killers have inflated egos because they face potato survivors regularly and can't recognize when they are actually outmatched, then get even more frustrated if they are indeed close in ranks. And yes there are boosted survivors with ego's too, but in my experience it's a lot more common to see a boosted potato survivor at red ranks than a boosted potato killer. MOST red rank killers actually deserve to be there, and even the boosted ones aren't far from the mark (maybe they should be purple ranks instead). At least 1 in 5 survivors at red ranks should be at green ranks at best.
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@DelsKibara said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1221578#Comment_1221578
I honestly really respect how well thought out your arguments and points are. Though, I'm curious why you think Deathslinger's Redeemer has no true counterplay? I've been treating him like how I treat Huntress whenever I play a game against her. Bait him to take a shot, and then move away. The projectile of his spear is rather small and not as forgiving as Huntress' hatchets so while it is riskier with how fast it is, it's not a guaranteed hit even if it's just a near-miss.
I've been explaining it in another thread if you want to read and reply there...
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1221582
Again I'm not really sure about this yet, but it FEELS very old Legion-y. It mostly comes down to the fact that once speared, there is basically nothing you can do as survivor outside of get lucky there is a large enough object to break the chain and avoid a hit, that the killer messes up, or that another survivor steps in to help (ie. all stuff that is independent of your own skill as a player). I'm willing to admit I'm wrong, just Deathslinger has been out over a month now and it doesn't feel like it's getting better. At least with other killers I felt like I was gaining some skill to outplay them over time, I don't get that feeling with Deathslinger, and I've come to trust my instincts on stuff like this because it usually turns out I'm right.
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@Demogordon_Ramsay said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1221580#Comment_1221580
But who cares if they're healthy? Hitting a healthy Survivor doesn't give you a downed Survivor.
Plus if there's one thing Legion taught us, being "rewarded" for using your power well by eating a 4-second stun is the worst thing ever.
If it were impossible to m1 that survivor, and instead you inflict damage from a distance or over some obstacle, yes it is indeed rewarding you.
That's like saying "who cares if they are slugged? Having a slugged survivor doesn't give you a dead survivor". Yet slugging is highly effective at slowing the game and gaining pressure, same with getting a long range hit where it would otherwise be impossible for any killer besides Huntresss/Deathslinger who have a long range attack. The act of slugging the survivor leads into the death of the survivor, just as the act of injuring a survivor leads into the downing of a survivor..
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@Demogordon_Ramsay said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1221518#Comment_1221518
It's like a reverse skill curve: You get rewarded in chases for hitting the basic anti-loop shots that anyone can do, but if you're actually skilled with your aiming and hit something like a Sharpshooter or manage to spear a Survivor through a really tight spot? There's a 99% chance the chain is going to break and there is nothing you can do about it. You get punished for being good at the game. It's terrible design.
It's only punishing if they are already injured/DW. If they are healthy, you get rewarded for it.
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Counter play means you always have a chance to swing momentum to your side up, or prevent the gain of momentum of the other side, until the point where the game actually ends. It means you always have a way to win, however slim, based on your own actions and not through the failure of your opponent (ie. a mistake that you can capitalize on).
In a classical sense, take Tic-Tac-Toe. Nearly any setup up has counter play in that you can always place an X/O leading to a win, or deny the other player a win through defensive means. TTT with no counter play would mean if you put X/O in the middle square, it always results in a win for you no matter what else happens. There is nothing the other player can do to stop you no matter how long the game goes on or what tactics you employ.
Another example is chess. In chess, the game ends when one player gets checkmate, a situation where the other player has no moves left and their king is taken. Now imagine a chess where a simple check (as in putting the king at risk of being taken but the other player still has moves left to prevent this) results in a win. This is now a game with no counter play, as the mere act of challenging the king would result in a win. It means white can in theory win in just 3 moves, and black has no option to win ever. (I'm not a grand master chess player, this probably isn't totally true I'm just using it as an example).
Lack of counter play leads to a very one dimensional game, where one side is basically destined to win.
In the case of DBD, the only real instance I can find of "no real counter play" that has been proven is old Legion. Old Legion just had to hit you with Frenzy twice, then moonwalk the chase and win. There is nothing the survivor can do. And yes, IF the Legion made a mistake the survivor could do something, but relying on your opponent to mess up is not counter play. Old DS was in a very similar situation, where you were basically reliant on the survivor missing the skill check to actually be able to beat it. Although, old DS was "more counterable" than old Legion if only because it was a one time use.
By contrast, beating a Spirit and Nurse in a chase (two killers people claim have no counter play) is not as dependent on the killer making a mistake. Yes if played perfectly, it is extremely difficult to counter play these killers, but there is still the possibility of doing so and that possibility is based on your skill as a survivor. Unlike Legion, there are things you can do to win a chase, some of it pre-emptive (ie. using Iron Will against Spirit) and some of it reactive (breaking LoS against Nurse and using structures to your advantage to make it harder for her to track you until she outright loses you). But against old Legion, there was nothing. Yea another player could come in and help you but that's independent of your own skill. Yea, Legion could make a mistake, but that's independent of your own skill. And yea, if you were 100% perfect in your play you could in theory circle back into Legion's LoS and restart the chase over and over (which is a great theoretical counter play but completely impractical in reality). Old DS too had no counter play. You just had to eat the DS (of the obsession) or juggle them (which is counter play but goes back to the one dimensional aspect I mention earlier).
Very few things in DBD have had no counter play when you really boil it down. Most balance discussions where this is brought up is mainly down to the practicality of such counter play. Like, old Freddy's tracking (via aura reading in Dream World) could be countered through skill, but it was one dimensional or simply unfair to require the other side to go to such extremes. New DS has counter play, in that you either slug the guy that was just on the hook or you go after someone else. If you get hit by DS even if you didn't tunnel, yea that sucks, but it was well within your power to just wait. The only time it wouldn't be is if you downed the guy in the exit gate, which is the equivalent of a checkmate on next move situation (where the only way to win is if the opponent royally screws up). I do think new DS could do with some kind of personal Blood Warden for 20 seconds to prevent this, requiring the survivor to basically escape another chase before they can leave, but it's such a niche situation that you could argue "hey you had the entire game to deal with DS, you waited until the literal last second and you paid for it."
IMO, the only true no counter play situations in the game were old Legion, sort of old DS (as in most situations), old BNP, infinites (as in ACTUAL infinites like old old cow tree with 2 windows and no Entity blocker), old mori, and Deathslingers spear (which I'm only adding it here because I'm literally in another thread debating it, so I may be wrong).
Really when a player says "this has no counter play" it's either because they simply refuse to engage in the counter play, or that they find it frustrating and have no other way to express it. I'd make a safe bet that 99.9999% of the current game is just fine in terms of "counter play", the arguments really come down to balance and fun more than "does this have counter play?".
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It won't.
Aim acceleration and dead zone options would help a lot more.
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@Demogordon_Ramsay said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1221477#Comment_1221477
Oh, don't get me wrong, I think Deathslinger is completely effing broken in a chase. I'm just saying, the fact he has NO counterplay is really pushing it in my opinion. I do agree though that there isn't ENOUGH counterplay and he feels like old Legion with a gun because of it.
When I say "no counterplay" I'm specifically referring to the spear mechanic, not the killer as a whole.
Legion could be countered by doing certain things in the overall scheme of the match, but the problem was they were uncounterable in a 1v1 chase. Again, people say this about Nurse or Spirit and it's just not true, you can do something it just becomes increasingly more difficult to succeed based on the skill of the killer. But when it comes to old Legion and Deathslinger, there really is nothing you can do, regardless of the skill of the killer. Deathslinger at least has an edge over old Legion in that he takes SOME skill to land shots, but it's very easy to become competent enough with his power to get to that level (especially if you are an FPS regular).
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@Demogordon_Ramsay said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1221472#Comment_1221472
Or the Survivors just don't know how to work with the altered movement and break the chain. There are STILL people at red ranks who don't realize that holding S makes the chain break faster. I think the only time that the chain really is completely unbreakable is low-wall loops with a lot of LoS.
I play on console so things are different, but a good Deathslinger is still going to get a hit on you unless you have a very large object inbetween you.
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@Demogordon_Ramsay said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1221438#Comment_1221438
Sounds to me like it's a you problem. I've seen and experienced instances where Survivors have plenty of control and I as the Killer feel like I was punished for hitting my shot. The fact that I even have to do more than hit my shot to do damage to the Survivor already feels annoying as is.
I have yet to see this outside of players using macros, which as I said shouldn't even be a thing because it's basically cheating. If you watch any YT'er or streamer this almost never happens either (again except macros). So you are doing something wrong or you get a lot of cheaters.
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It's not that great of a perk.
As killer, I'd rather the survivor has Self Care over a whole bunch of other perks. ESPECIALLY if I run my favorite combo of Sloppy Butcher & Thanataphobia. Yummy yummy, survivors in my tummy.
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"Alot of other game i play like overwatch or fortnite when people lose they really dont care"
Uhhh.... 🤔🤔🤔🤔
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@Demogordon_Ramsay said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1221226#Comment_1221226
So if the spear hitting you just did straight damage, you wouldn't be frustrated at the lack of avoiding damage, but because it DOES have a way of avoiding damage, you're mad that you don't get to avoid damage as often as you feel you should?
That's... just plain illogical. There's no other way to put it.
No.
If the spear did straight damage, the initial problem of not being able to do anything against reeling would be solved (as there is no reeling) but now there is a new and even worse problem that the hit is unavoidable. His power would be completely overpowered. It's like saying "if Frenzy just downed you like a normal hit then old Legion wouldn't be a problem". He still would 100% just not in the same way.
The reason that it's acceptable for Huntress to have hatchets that inflict straight damage is because there is a wind up time, and the projectile moves slow enough that you can dodge it after a few meters.
What's annoying about Deathslinger is he spears you, and as he is reeling you in you SHOULD have some ways to counter play it but you really don't. The down is inevitable, and it's lame. FOR THE SAME REASON that old Legion being able to hit you with Frenzy and just follow you until you go down is lame. Because there's no way to counter this tactic. You could argue that if you dodge before he shoots it's fine, the same way you could argue that you could dodge Frenzy hits, but it doesn't solve the initial problem of what happens after the hit. Furthermore, dodging the spear isn't as realistic a counter play as dodging a hatchet. You have time to react to a hatchet and Huntress has to start leading her shots past like 3m because of travel time. Spear at the same range has 0 travel time, hence why I say it might as well be hitscan. It's only at the very outer edge of his range where he needs to start leading his shots, and even then not by much. It is infinitely easier in the ranges most chases occur to popshot the spear and get a hit without the survivor having a chance to react than it is to land a hatchet at the same range as Huntress.
There is also the issue that Deathslinger controls your movement and position way too much. Huntress hatchets you, that's all there is to it. Deathslinger spears you, not only do you get hit but you get pulled WAY out of position allowing for an easy follow up.
What I'm saying is that survivors should have more control during the reeling period. Again I'm fine with buffing Deathslinger in other ways to compensate, maybe allow him to break pallets by pulling you up to them, or increase the range of the spear, or maybe allow him to walk forward while reeling to close distance, or something else I'm not sure what. But right now, you get speared and there's nothing you can do, when you should be able to do something that isn't based entirely on luck that the nearest object is just big enough he can't swing around it. THAT is the problem.
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@deadbyhitbox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1221296#Comment_1221296
I'm personally on console and I think the large majority of the shots take plenty of skill to hit. I agree, on short loops I don't think it takes a massive amount of skill to hit certain shots. For me, I think it takes a lot of skill to hit mid-long range fairly consistently. The spear itself has a relatively small hitbox, this means you have to be precise and understand the movement the survivors will make before they make it. I put him on the same level as Huntress. While she has that windup, she also receives some compensation via the hatchet hitboxes, or latency, whatever you wanna refer to it as.
If you were to add more movement for the survivor, you would deal a massive blow to his power. I think if you're landing your shots, the majority of the time you should be rewarded. If you were to give more movement, it would hurt the most skillful part of playing him imo, long range shots.
In the end, I guess we can agree to disagree. Thanks for being respectful throughout our discussion. Have a good night :)
I'd be fine with buffing him in other areas to compensate. It's just lame to get speared and it's like "I am going down and there is nothing I can do about it" outside of just getting lucky really. I compare it to old Legion because it's pretty much the same thing there is no chance to avoid going down. People want to compare it to Spirit too, but I don't think that's valid because you can do something about it, it's just more difficult to pull off the better the killer. Same with Nurse. The chance to outplay them might be low, but there is still an outplay to be made. With Deathslinger (and old Legion) there IS no outplay, it's just purely luck or the killer messes up.