What, in your opinion, counts as "Counterplay"?
I've always read a lot about how certain killers or perks lack counterplay. Whether it being Decisive Strike, Borrowed Time, Spirit, Freddy, Hag or even Prove Thyself and NOED.
And I just want to ask the community a question. What exactly counts as Counterplay?
Because in my opinion, all those perks and killers I've listed are able to be countered easily yet I keep hearing people say the same things over and over about how they lack counterplay, or how they lack interactivity, how they are just an easy win for either side. So I just want to know what the community thinks that counts as Counterplay.
Because if we're just going to base the assumption that counterplay is to counter the strategy or ability of the other play. Everything in DBD has counterplay. So again, I'm curious what the community thinks countering someone's perks or killer really is.
Comments
well when people talk about counterplay they want a method to completly ignore the downside but ignoring the downside is the downside like guessing if a survivor has ds or not you waste 60 seconds or you eat it and be stunned for 5 seconds and them going to a safe tile but most survivors complaing cause they die by a skilled killer or they have bad teammates from what i know in this community is that every single times something happens people complain
They essentially want the ability to cancel out whatever a killer is doing. Mind you they specifically each survivor the ability to counter 1 killer.
picking a hero in dota who’s abilities are good against someone the other team picked - countering
bring iron will in hopes you face a spirit - not countering, just luck
see the difference?
I’d say counter-play is having a sensible way to play around or prevent something .e.g. to counter-play Nemesis, you drop the pallet early.
Some Perks and Killers lack this sensible counter-play by not providing enough windows to play around or requiring you to bend over backwards .e.g. to counter NOED, cleanse all 5 totems; if you’re a Solo Player, you have to search the entire map to ensure all 5 totems are cleansed. Doesn’t matter if they are already cleansed, you need to check for yourself or risk getting insta-downed later.
There are two types of counterplay.
1) Having a window of opportunity to weasel your way out a bad situation by utilizing certain tactics or adopting certain playstyles/builds to circumnavigate, mitigate, or otherwise nullify the negative effects—for example, equipping Botany Knowledge to counter Sloppy Butcher, or not dropping pallets to counter a Killer who respects pallets.
2) BEING REWARDED FOR BEING BETTER AT THE VIDEO GAME THAN YOUR OPPONENT.
Dead By Daylight has plenty of the first one but almost zero of the second one.
I would like to comment something. At least in my opinion, "counterplay" isnt exactly the same as "interactivity". "Counterplay", in my dictionary means the ability to negate or at least drastically decrease the power of an effect. "Interactivity" to my eyes means a certain amount of input from both the Survivor and the Killer.
About counterplay:
About interactivity:
Now, I do have a beef with BT, but thats only because encourages bad plays more than "managed to save against a camper".
Counter play means you always have a chance to swing momentum to your side up, or prevent the gain of momentum of the other side, until the point where the game actually ends. It means you always have a way to win, however slim, based on your own actions and not through the failure of your opponent (ie. a mistake that you can capitalize on).
In a classical sense, take Tic-Tac-Toe. Nearly any setup up has counter play in that you can always place an X/O leading to a win, or deny the other player a win through defensive means. TTT with no counter play would mean if you put X/O in the middle square, it always results in a win for you no matter what else happens. There is nothing the other player can do to stop you no matter how long the game goes on or what tactics you employ.
Another example is chess. In chess, the game ends when one player gets checkmate, a situation where the other player has no moves left and their king is taken. Now imagine a chess where a simple check (as in putting the king at risk of being taken but the other player still has moves left to prevent this) results in a win. This is now a game with no counter play, as the mere act of challenging the king would result in a win. It means white can in theory win in just 3 moves, and black has no option to win ever. (I'm not a grand master chess player, this probably isn't totally true I'm just using it as an example).
Lack of counter play leads to a very one dimensional game, where one side is basically destined to win.
In the case of DBD, the only real instance I can find of "no real counter play" that has been proven is old Legion. Old Legion just had to hit you with Frenzy twice, then moonwalk the chase and win. There is nothing the survivor can do. And yes, IF the Legion made a mistake the survivor could do something, but relying on your opponent to mess up is not counter play. Old DS was in a very similar situation, where you were basically reliant on the survivor missing the skill check to actually be able to beat it. Although, old DS was "more counterable" than old Legion if only because it was a one time use.
By contrast, beating a Spirit and Nurse in a chase (two killers people claim have no counter play) is not as dependent on the killer making a mistake. Yes if played perfectly, it is extremely difficult to counter play these killers, but there is still the possibility of doing so and that possibility is based on your skill as a survivor. Unlike Legion, there are things you can do to win a chase, some of it pre-emptive (ie. using Iron Will against Spirit) and some of it reactive (breaking LoS against Nurse and using structures to your advantage to make it harder for her to track you until she outright loses you). But against old Legion, there was nothing. Yea another player could come in and help you but that's independent of your own skill. Yea, Legion could make a mistake, but that's independent of your own skill. And yea, if you were 100% perfect in your play you could in theory circle back into Legion's LoS and restart the chase over and over (which is a great theoretical counter play but completely impractical in reality). Old DS too had no counter play. You just had to eat the DS (of the obsession) or juggle them (which is counter play but goes back to the one dimensional aspect I mention earlier).
Very few things in DBD have had no counter play when you really boil it down. Most balance discussions where this is brought up is mainly down to the practicality of such counter play. Like, old Freddy's tracking (via aura reading in Dream World) could be countered through skill, but it was one dimensional or simply unfair to require the other side to go to such extremes. New DS has counter play, in that you either slug the guy that was just on the hook or you go after someone else. If you get hit by DS even if you didn't tunnel, yea that sucks, but it was well within your power to just wait. The only time it wouldn't be is if you downed the guy in the exit gate, which is the equivalent of a checkmate on next move situation (where the only way to win is if the opponent royally screws up). I do think new DS could do with some kind of personal Blood Warden for 20 seconds to prevent this, requiring the survivor to basically escape another chase before they can leave, but it's such a niche situation that you could argue "hey you had the entire game to deal with DS, you waited until the literal last second and you paid for it."
IMO, the only true no counter play situations in the game were old Legion, sort of old DS (as in most situations), old BNP, infinites (as in ACTUAL infinites like old old cow tree with 2 windows and no Entity blocker), old mori, and Deathslingers spear (which I'm only adding it here because I'm literally in another thread debating it, so I may be wrong).
Really when a player says "this has no counter play" it's either because they simply refuse to engage in the counter play, or that they find it frustrating and have no other way to express it. I'd make a safe bet that 99.9999% of the current game is just fine in terms of "counter play", the arguments really come down to balance and fun more than "does this have counter play?".
I honestly really respect how well thought out your arguments and points are. Though, I'm curious why you think Deathslinger's Redeemer has no true counterplay? I've been treating him like how I treat Huntress whenever I play a game against her. Bait him to take a shot, and then move away. The projectile of his spear is rather small and not as forgiving as Huntress' hatchets so while it is riskier with how fast it is, it's not a guaranteed hit even if it's just a near-miss.
Uh... ???
Maybe I'm missing something but I feel like both scenarios are the same. Picking an option that is beneficial against what the opponenet picked. Maybe I don't know Dota but don't you also not see what the enemy player is choosing to pick too?
I've been explaining it in another thread if you want to read and reply there...
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1221582
Again I'm not really sure about this yet, but it FEELS very old Legion-y. It mostly comes down to the fact that once speared, there is basically nothing you can do as survivor outside of get lucky there is a large enough object to break the chain and avoid a hit, that the killer messes up, or that another survivor steps in to help (ie. all stuff that is independent of your own skill as a player). I'm willing to admit I'm wrong, just Deathslinger has been out over a month now and it doesn't feel like it's getting better. At least with other killers I felt like I was gaining some skill to outplay them over time, I don't get that feeling with Deathslinger, and I've come to trust my instincts on stuff like this because it usually turns out I'm right.
I would say his spear acts the same as Huntress' hatchets. Except with his spear it's more or less about closing the gap and restarting the chase all over again rather than stopping someone from far away.
If you get hit, you get injured or downed. The results are the same with Huntress, just slightly different in execution. Old Legion requires you to do actually nothing except hit the survivor once and moonwalk. Deathslinger requires some pretty precise aiming (because the spear is a projectile, not a hitscan like Huntress' hitboxes), and it is limited to 18 meters in length. So it's not as powerful as Old Legion, and it is more reminiscent of Huntress as a projectile killer injuring you if you get hit with their weapon.
If you want to discuss it in the other thread we can. I'm going to bed though so I'll have to reply to you tomorrow (well today... but waaaaay later today).
pretty much been said, its about situations that you have no answer for so you just have to sorta take it.
DS has that when for example the exit door is open, you hook someone who still has DS, they get unhooked.
Now they are just out without being out yet, you can down them but if you pick them up they will DS you and if you let them crawl they will just get out, the only "counterplay" to that is in the past, hooking them earlier and tunneling them to get DS out of the way early but nobody would appreciate that sorta gameplay and it just as well might work against you.
With Spirit, especially Stridor Spirit, if she hits you you start making noise, now you get that adrenaline boost away after the hit, she phases after you and unless there happen to be a pallet closeby (and even if) there is preeeeetty much nothing you can do about it as survivor.
With Freddy idk what they mean perse but as an example it takes him less time then either the Hag or the Trapper to put down a trap, and he telegraphs it much less and can keep an eye on what you are doing while he puts it down, this all makes Freddy rather hard if not impossible to deal with in loops so you have to hope you can reach the next loop in time as soon as you see the bloodtraps being put down.
And if we look at the fake pallets, there is not a single thing indicating that a pallet is fake, you dont know unless you very clearly remember that pallet being thrown down by you or another and you just happen to see that or communicate in SWF that htat pallet is gone (usually that can only be done for easily identifiable pallets like the Shack Pallet or the Cow Tree Pallet.
Other then those very specific situations, the Freddy Fake Pallet has little you can do about it, you just lose.
Counterplay is when a part of the perk/ability has something a survivor/kill can counter, and is meant to be there. Hag being able to lose traps to flashlights is counterplay. Leaving a survivor slugged to avoid DS isn't.