radiantHero23
radiantHero23
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- radiantHero23
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It basicly works very similar. You hug an object very tightly and move your camera so that it looks for the survivor as if you move to the one side, but in the middle of the ambush you adjust your camera and start "moonwalking" mid ambush. Due to the survivor thinking that you will ambush in one direction, they will run in one direction. Therefore, if you time it correctly, they will literally run into you, resulting in a hit. This is hard because of invisible ambush hitboxes, but again, if you use it perfectly, it's really strong and can guarantee hits on most survivors. I'd even had comp survivors, real tournament players, go up against my pig and I downed them using this "tech". Using the moondash is the highest mechanical skill you can get out of pig and it is very satisfying to pull off.
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@jonifire said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3599352#Comment_3599352
What do you mean with moon dash, if it is like a moon walk then that‘s not possible on console.
I can only dash forward.
You know blights hug tech?
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@jonifire said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3599352#Comment_3599352
It‘s dumb that you should memorize all structures just to play someone. It should give you an advantage, but it shouldn‘t be the reason for playing well. It‘s like with xeno where you have to know invisible walls it‘s just dumb.
For huntress lullaby you have to get 3-5 hooks before it‘s even strong. While you did that most people also know that you got that perk. Then they would try to distroy it/ should try to find it. Also if you want it not to get distroyed you have to protect it and huntress lullaby would make the traps more difficult not impossible. If survivors just decide not to distroy it they have to live with that. It‘s not like you just get kills for nothing.
But that's how it is. It's a skill cieling. Knowing all that gives you an advantage. It makes your chases last a lot less. There are killers that are a lot harder to even get into. Singularity, Pinhead and Nurse come to mind. With a bit of a stretch, you could even mention blight.
If a character is super strong from the get go, there would be no reason to learn. That would be boring. At least for me. Look at chucky. Right now I'm learning how to do a clean 180 flick with him. You dont need it, but it helps a lot against better survivors.
Let me break it to you. Huntress lullaby is a super weak perk that can't be buffed. It's based on survivors missing skill checks. Even at 5 stacks with silent skill checks, the Perk is still awful. I have tons of matches, where I use it and survivors just ignore it, because they dont have any problems with skill checks at all. It can't be buffed because it's genuinely evil against lesser skilled survivors. Punishing new players without making the Perk good against stronger players is awful.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3598832#Comment_3598832
You used to be able to use dash to get on top of certain loops for example from the coal tower on the jungle gym next to it, but with some invisible walls added you cannot do that anymore, with survivors getting better there is just not the same potential anymore to pull this stuff off... It is not that the power got directly made worse but just Indirectly.
I saw one of them and found it a trash movie, doesn't change that I like the gameplay of the dash.
So if it was lore accurate, why exactly can you harass the survivors while doing the bear traps? Which is what many if not most players do and you are not hindered in any way or form, other than the timer not running during chase, which can easily be avoided.
I don't really if that is the point, but the idea that in a game you basically beat someone with 0 interaction that is just stupid, there is no gameplay involved, no skillfully thing you did to be proud of, dying just because of rng and being unlucky should never be a thing. Just because it is a certain way in a movie does not mean it will work in a game the same way.
Like I said before I like her ambush and the possibilities of it to use it around tiles, however I want the main focus to be the ambush dash because that is something you have control over, it is gameplay, the trap is not really... And in a game the main focus should be the gameplay and not something else, otherwise you might be more in favor of a interactive movie or just a movie.
I think we can still discuss about changes, just because the killer is lore accurate does not mean he is in best state for the gameplay this game offers, for me the game is all about the chase, the killer could be as lore accurate is possible, if the gameplay is not fun I could not care less... To focus on lore accuracy but not gameplay would be a terrible choice for anyone that does not play a character just to role play.
You dont get it.
First to the ambush. Invisible walls also punish Billy and Demo. Pig is just another one. This is not a Pig problem. It's a map problem. Survivors getting better means, that you have to get better. Incoming: the moondash. I can outplay a ton of tiles with it. My personal favorite being the busted car park on garden of joy.
Now to the traps. What can you do in dbd? You can harass players searching boxes and interrupt them. This is Amanda rigging their test for her personal agenda. This is subtle but wonderful adaption of the source material and probably why John Kramer will never get added to dbd without giving survivors God mode while removing traps.
You never kill survivors outright passively. Only some addons can do that on some maps. But that's more of an map problem. I want to stress that I absolutely dislike the idea of a survivor just dying passively without any work from the killers side.
Luckily this is not the case with pig. As OP has mentioned, the traps come off almost always on their own. This is intended I feel like. The traps should only become extremely lethal if the pig player interrupts and harasses survivors effectively. This is how I get my head pops on a dayly basis. I monitor the map, pin point the Rng and plan out the survivors path of searching all whole chasing someone else at the same time. Then when the time is right, I go to the correct place at the correct time and harass that survivor. Some perks can make this a lot easier. Bbq is the best for this, so you don't have to remember survivor movement that much. But in the last weeks I felt that I grew too reliant in it and played with Stbfl only. I won a majority of my matches. Not against weak survivors I like to add.
The traps are the strategic part of her kit, that can be lethal if USED correctly. The ambush is the mechanical part of her power that is supposed to help her apply those traps. Its still extremely good at a lot of loops if the player know the structures and how to use it effectively. I know almost all loops and how to use the ambush at them. Again, I played her enough.
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@jonifire said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3598879#Comment_3598879
I only don‘t want nerves for her. If she gets buffed she doesn‘t need nerves at the same time.
For perks working with boxes especially with huntress lullaby it wouldn‘t be that bad, it‘s a boon, which can be distroyed.
You don't see the whole picture.
Pig is a special cookie. If you only buff her chase potential, she could literally become too opressive due to her build in slowdown. I'm not joking. The slowdown is already too much to handle for a lot of weaker survivors and also some higher skilled soloq teams. That's why the slowdown and her chase have to be balanced accordingly to one aspect getting stronger. Right now, she's balanced due to steong slowdown and weak chase. It works.
Huntress lullaby is a noob stomper perk. It's really bad but that's why the devs don't buff it. It's a really mean perk for newer players and these shouldn't be punished harder than experienced players. Buffing it to have synergy with pig (Was a thing once and got removed) would ONLY punish newer or casual players. This is a bad idea.
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@jonifire said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3598832#Comment_3598832
In the third Movie amanda gave the survivors unfair games that they couldn‘t win so it would be fine buffing traps interrupting them usw story wise
You misunderstood.
I said, that she is adapted very well in dbd.
In saw, Amanda rigges the bathroom game in saw1, the school game in saw3 and detective Kerry's game also in saw3.
What can you do in dbd? You can interrupt survivors while searching boxes. Therefore rigging their test. This is wonderful but subtle adaption of the source material.
However, the gameplay should not become horrible. After over 2k hours of playing Amanda and witnessing the change to her rng the last time, I have to say, that the traps are in the best state they have ever been. Maybe they are even a bit too strong. She is already performing dangerously well against weaker survivors just because of the traps. Making them stronger in any form, especially in regard to punishing weaker survivors is NOT the way to go.
The only thing she needs are number changes to increase her chase potential.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3598576#Comment_3598576
The traps are the most boring part of her power, because aside from getting a down or putting them on you are not really doing something with them, you don't need to be skillfully to get value out of them, the killer does not really play differently if they have traps or not, only if you want to get rid of someone with a trap, and even then the gameplay does not really change compared to a normal chase unless you crouch follow.
See that's where I think it is terrible design, why would the main focus of a playable character be a thing that allows very little interaction instead of a mechanic you can learn and master to get some crazy hits? That's just awfully Boring...
So you think it is great design if someone just dies because you brought addons and they are on a large map and got unlucky with RNG? Like why even? You did not do anything special to achieve that, the guy won't be like oh I got totally outplayed, you just get a passive kill for doing nothing, that's just the most boring stuff ever, if you make great plays you will eventually get rewarded for them, but just getting a free kill without doing anything for it just because you brought addons and got lucky is just stupid.
Nobody says Pig is supposed to be as demanding as Hillbilly or Blight and require that amount of skill to use her power, but there are such cool things you could pull off or were able to in the past, if you look at some of Scorpionz old videos of what great plays were possible, that's something I would like to have back, a dash that is usable and allows for skill expression.
If you don't want to learn mechanical skill sure just don't use it and play as an m1 killer with lethal game delay, but I don't see a reason not to give her more strength in her chase. Especially if it still allows counterplay, because this kind of killer specific chase mechanics is what makes the game great.
Now I feel insulted. I have 2k hours on pig. I mastered the moondashes and created a list on all invisible ambush hitboxes on any loop in dbd. I analyzed EVERY mechanical part of the pigs ambush and dare I say perfected that part of her power. The pigs ambush never got nerfed. It works as always. I know that. I use it. I can do all the tricks you mentioned. I DO THEM ACTIVLY IN MY MATCHES.
Now I have a question for you. Have you ever seen saw? John, Hoffmann or Amanda never interact with test subject directly. Saw is imemented perfectly in dbd. The traps have no interaction between killer and survivor because that's the hole point. The survivor has to overcome a struggle on their own.
If you don't like how the pig works, she's not for you. That's fine. I don't like blight, Nurse, or Wesker. We all have different taste of gameplay.
Pig feels very immersive and truthful to the movies. I think we should appreciate that and recall, what this game is about.
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@supersonic853 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3598733#Comment_3598733
I thought myers is the lowest now after trappers buffs?
Freddy is the weakest killer.
He is the only killer in the game that has no option to become oppressive.
His snares are too weak for anti loop and can be disabled via missing a skill check. The tp has an insane cooldown. The addons are absolutely abysmal.
Freddy is the only killer where his best addon is iridescent and could be completely made basekit without making him too oppressive in any way.
He's just bad.
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@Coordi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3598130#Comment_3598130
I'm afraid I do not have any additional information. We will share as soon as we have more details! <3
Im looking forward to it.
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@jonifire said:
I don‘t know what I do wrong, but head pops aren‘t that easy to get. You make it sound like a common thing.
It is easy, if you know what you have to do.
I literally get a head pop at least every third game. Sometimes even two.
I dont use any trap related addons. Only John's medical file and combat straps.
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@skylustv said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3598576#Comment_3598576
100% agreed, i'm a main Pig P100. traps should never be removed in the first trial
First: hello fellow Boop enthusiast. Welcome to the p100 pig club.
Second :???
Traps should never come off first trial?
Do you mean first search?
The trap coming off first search is literally the best Rng the pig can get. It makes traps extremely lethal.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3598442#Comment_3598442
As a fellow (though relatively new) Pig Main, I agree with this assessment whole heartedly.
While learning the Pig as my first character, I watched a sizable number of hours of videos from several different Pig mains, and that, combined with my own play and application of what I've learned sees the exact same thing.
Pig's headtrap lethality is what keeps her numbers up, and its her chase where she is weakest.
My changes would have been: -
- Crouching movement speed +5% (3.60 -> 3.8 m/s)
- Ambush charges +33% faster (0.75 -> 0.5s).
- Ambush scream starts after 70% charge (0.35s).
- Ambush lunge time +20% (2.0 -> 2.5s)
- Progress on Jigsaw boxes is not lost on interruption.
I don't think she needs both ambush move speed and duration, especially if we're charging faster and with less warning. I also would like to keep the ability to mind game with the charge where I can cancel the roar for a bait.
All these chase buffs though must warrant a nerf to her RBTs, as they are the most potent part of her kit, and while it should be a threat, it shouldn't be the main thing making Amanda viable.
Progress not being lost (or at least degrading) is a double edged sword... it drastically reduces the potency of RBTs, as screams, the Deep wound add-ons, etc, etc no longer create problems for survivors. There is an amount of how much of the Pig's uniqueness from RBTs are we willing to lose to improve her chase. Your change is less severe, and I like it, I'm not sure if all the buffs to chase would be balanced out enough by this nerf to make the RBTs fair?
Of course my proposal needs tweaks to John's Medical File and Workshop Grease. I'd be worried about the power of these if these changes were made. A 4.2m/s stealth Pig with 0.25s ambush charge just might he a little much xD
Last Will is probably fine.
Great suggestions. I still think that the better way to nerf the traps without making a headpop impossible, is to make survivors not being able to die while working on a box.
Making survivors not lose box progress makes interrupting as a Pig impossible. Harassing survivors should stay a thing.
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@jonifire said:
I wanted to add two more things:
- When the trap is inactive, after searching a box the trap activates
- Also I would want that the places where boxes are located are less obvious (so that her addon rule number two would be better)
Also disagree.
As I said, the traps are lethal enough. Nothing more needed.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3598646#Comment_3598646
Aye, I'm a little unsure on that myself, which is why I've never made a thread about it...
Pig is an odd one cause her kill rate is high in low MMR, but really struggles without playing super dirty in high MMR...
With all these buffs she can of course play super dirty still... and also will be even better in low MMR... so it doesn't feel right to ask purely for buffs...
Hopefully better players than me have a good solution, the no kill while interacting with a trap nerf might be good from @radiantHero23... though that last desperate nervous search would be a sad loss...
I think this is by far the best nerf, if any has to happen. I agree, that it would be sad, but increasing the timer is bad and nerfing the addons would not help due to the (not so) rare occurring (1-3-4-4) Rng being the true problem of the traps lethality.
Changing the Rng would probably lead to a lot of other problems. I like the Rng that exists right now.
If this would be the nerf, the traps could in addition to finishing gens be activated by a survivor touching the exit gate lever, reanimating end game pig back from the grave of old playstyles.
These are however all smaller changes. Our lady is greatly designed and should not be changed too much. 🐽
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3598534#Comment_3598534
I meant not only specifically pig, I also find Sadako condom Ed somewhat overturned, when we look at how consistently the Morris are when we looking at Otz playing her, however I will admit that it might as well be because people are not playing against her properly.
As for Pig I find it ridiculous that like 70+% of her addons are only for the bear traps and not for the dash, which together with her crouch is basically the only thing that sets her apart from an m1 killer with build in slowdown... Some of her addons just make the bear traps way to lethal and i would find it the best thing to just keep them as slowdown and not necessarily as a really lethal tool.
The bear traps are what sets her apart. That's her main focus.
She's the saw killer. Otherwise she could very well be any other stealth killer that surprises you.
The traps should be lethal. Otherwise there is no pressure. Also... The addons aren't even the worst part. If you get the correct Rng, you can get head pops very consistently. However, you as the killer has to work for it and use strategy and map awareness to harass effectively.
The traps are what makes her unique. She's the only killer that you can passively die to. And that's great. Not every killer has to focus on mechanical skill.
The game needs to have variety in killer design to have something for everyone.
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@BlightedDolphin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3598536#Comment_3598536
Indeed I do :D
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/BDBYGRWY8KQI/image.png
I really miss the old Freddy memes.
Absolute chad
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@BlightedDolphin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3598428#Comment_3598428
The Nerf Pig meme could finally come to an end, but an old relic may return and take its place.
OMG!
YOU HAVE THE IMAGE?!?
I adore this meme.
Another good one is : "the nightmare has been overperforming as of late"
Do you have the sharp hand joe one as well?
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/398786/pig-feedback-ideas
The bear traps are supposed to be game delay, just like pinhead box or Sadako tape, generally speaking. They are not supposed to kill you normally, but for some reason some are overturned and therefore offer too much lethality.
Some are overtuned?
You mean addons or Rng?
Because both can have huge impact on lethality.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3598442#Comment_3598442
The lore is never a good reason to keep things that are bad design, and I think the dash while standing would be a nice element to her kit.
No it wouldn't be.
First: Pig is not badly designed.
Second: this game is based around icons of horror. If the character from the franchise you enjoy doesn't fit in gameplay, the character will not be liked.
If Myers would have a rifle to shoot survivors, it wouldn't be Myers.
The Pig in the movies ambushes their test subjects when they least expect it out of the shadows. She doesn't just run at them when they know she's there.
Crouch into dash if fine.
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I forgot to mention some things I personally would add.
Reverse bear trap:
If a reverse bear trap is placed after a the gates are powered, this trap will remain inactive UNTIL the exit gates are touched. Touching an exit gate will activate all remaining reverse bear traps placed on survivors.
I put a lot of though into this and I believe it will help her out a lot. It will make her power work in end game without making it unhealthy in my opinion. End game pig should be a thing.
Sound design.
Give her a menu and chase theme based on "hello zeb".
Hire Shawnee Smith to record ONE voiceline and make Amanda say: "game over" when a survivor dies to a reverse bear trap.
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I WAS SUMMONED! 🐽
Disagree with some of them.
Pig might seem weak in some instances, but with enough experience, the traps become a lethal weapon that destroys survivors.
They should not be buffed in any way. They are the reason for Pig's consistent high kill rate
Now to Amanda herself.
The problem with her stealth is how slow she moves. This combined with huge maps makes stealth very unappealing. Right now the best option is to use the John's medical file because it elevates her to 100%. Making her stealth maybe a bit faster would be good and not problematic in any way in my opinion. It helps with chasing and getting a first hit.
The roar if that's what you mean, is fine in length. It is connected to the charge up of the ambush. A great idea is to put the ambush on the attack itself and not the charge up. This makes survivors a bit more oblivious to when the attack is gonna start and therefore will make them want to leave the loop a little less often.
The ambush should always be connected to being crouched. Everything else would be very inaccurate to her lore and her appearance in the movies. (including Saw x, which I was finally able to see!!!) I do t think she needs more stuff added to her kit, which is already pretty full.
I dont like adding a synergy with perks like huntress lullaby to the jigsaw boxes. Again, the traps are very lethal in the right hands. Making it even harder for beginner players is not the way to go. In addition to that, there are a lot of addons that would destroy survivors for missing one or two skill checks. Not a good idea.
Now to your opinion on the timer. IN NO WAY SHOULD THE TIMER BE INCREASED! This would make her a extremely lethal for all the WRONG reasons. The reverse bear trap is the strongest slowdown in dbd period. Nothing comes close. Understanding box Rng and how to harass survivors effectively makes head pop not as uncommon as you think. With the correct Rng (1-3-4-4) I get a head pop almost every time. The time is already very limited if you have 4 searches. Making it longer would mean almost certain death for the unlucky ones getting these traps. Reverse bear traps should NEVER give you kills for free. They should however enable kills if you as the pig work for it and harass survivors.
I would even recommend a nerf to the reverse bear traps that will make them a lot weaker but in a fair way.
Survivors are no longer able to die while searching a jigsaw box.
This seems small, but would have a huge impact to the kill pressure of the reverse bear trap. There are several addons that make searching a box difficult for people that have problems with skill checks. There are also addons (gears) that make searching a box take a lot longer. With some combinations (double gears) (crate of gears + tempered timer) and a little interruption on a survivor having a 4 - search trap will GUARANTEE that this survivor dies. I'm not joking. I played her enough to know. Making it that a survivor cannot die of they are working on a jigsaw box (timer runs out but you won't die if your working on it) will make this problem less extreme. The survivor should however immediately die if the timer runs out and the search doesn't lead to the trap coming off.
Im neutral to the idea of the ambush being longer the longer you crouch. At most tiles, Amanda goes into her stealth, charges the ambush and attacks. This would mean that there is effectively no longer distance. It is already way better to stealth up to a survivor, uncrouch and hit them with m1 for Stbfl stacks. I don't think this would improve her performance that much, but it would also not make her weaker.
Same with ambush out of a locker. It would never be something you use in a match due to the time lost. Pig already struggles with huge maps. Incentivising her to stay in one spot to surprise a survivor will make her lose a ton of time, making it not worth it at all. Again, it would not nerf her, but it would not really buff her either. Same thing with dredge, who can enter lockers to surprise survivors. Its never useful.
What should she get to make her more effektive?
Faster crouch movement speed base
Faster ambuch charge up base.
Faster ambush dash speed.
Longer ambush dash speed.
(Maybe) the roar on the ambush not the charge up.
That's all. It will improve her chase a lot and not make her too oppressive in regard to her slowdown.
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@BlightedDolphin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3598177#Comment_3598177
Thank god it’s not a nerf. That’s great to hear and I hope Pig finally get the buffs she deserves.
Keep monitoring closely though. We don’t want anyone trying to slip a Pig nerf in there.
Ill keep looking o7
No Pig nerfs allowed.
We would not survive the amount of meme posts.
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@CrossTheSholf said:
They gonna nerf her fr
Maybe, but in a healthy way.
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@BlightedDolphin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3598163#Comment_3598163
At least you can still play Pig. As an OG Freddy main my boy is gone forever :(
And thankfully Pig is on the roadmap so hopefully she can finally get out of low tier soon.
They said and I quote:
"At least we got a Pig nerf" - "No we dont"
We have their word. She won't get worse. However, you have my word as a Boop - enthusiast, that I will monitor the situation with extreme care. Pig mains stand together.
I'm so sorry for what happened to Freddy. You guys are the OG Sadako mains. You suffered and got ignored the longest.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3597706#Comment_3597706
It doesn't matter. Once Freddy gets the priority, you will just ruin him again.
It has happened many times already.
Can I lift your spirit in any way?
I'm a Pig main so I know your pain...
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3598117#Comment_3598117
They said it's not nerf for Piggy
@Vanishlord just watched the twitch vod.
I quote:
"At least we got a Pig nerf" - "No we dont"
We have their word. We have power.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3595171#Comment_3595171
I know, friend.
I know.
Im with you my man.
Your day will come.
The nightmare will end.
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@Vanishlord said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3598117#Comment_3598117
Please devs we've suffered enough leave Amanda alone. I wouldn't say no to a buff though. Even survivors love her.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3597849#Comment_3597849
Noooooooooooooo!
I said it before.
If they change the pig in any bad way. I will stop playing dbd.
She carried me through over 2 thousand hours of gameplay. Without her, this game would not be the same for me.
Amanda needs to stay the way she is.
But that all comes down to what "Killer tweaks" means and how it is different to "Killer update".
We need to stay strong fellow Boop - enthusiast. 🐽
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@Coordi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3597755#Comment_3597755
I can confirm that Trickster is currently being monitored, and we will communicate if there will be any changes.
It has nothing to do with Trickster, but for my own mental health...
Could you specify what "Killer tweaks" means? What is the difference to "Killer updates"?
I would like to know because....
Pig....
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@ad19970 said:
I have played a lot of Chucky matches today and haven't had one game where someone gave up.
Me neither.
Only one, where I had 5 hooks and they had no gen done.
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@tjt85 said:
2 strong licensed Killers in a row with decent perks and at least one very strong perk.
Buffs to lots of chase perks (BHVR seem to be moving the game away from gen / hook defense and more towards encouraging chases. No bad thing imho).
Buffs to Sadako (maybe a little too buffed? I rarely lose with her now).
Buffs to Trapper. He's more enjoyable to play now.
Buffs to Trickster (maybe no so successful, this one. I wasn't sure he needed buffing to be honest).
Demo back in the game.
MfT nerfed into the ground.
Teams still getting stomped all over in 80% of my SoloQ games.
Yeah, I'd say Killer is doing just fine.
Sadako is awful
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3597348#Comment_3597348
yes you grab a tape. what other aspect do you need to counter the mechanic? the mechanic being turned off encompass the entire chase gameplay for survivor. a large portion of the game is centers around stalling chases and chase survival. for a lot players, being good at the chase is huge summary of survivor's skill-level in the game. Now i am going to say that it is so black and white because i do think that generator efficiency and teamwork ethic at correct time play a part in survivor success but being good at the chase is a good portion of survivor skill in the game.
if 3 gen is not effective anymore, then why they changing it? Why is coconut able to have 30+ minute games with singlurarity? Her old mechanic of 16 meter TV and generators by TV incentived gen-camping and 3 gen. I would imagine this being one of reasons for her changes. The other reason is that another method to corral survivors was to slug people next to TV's. Survivor dislike this gameplay and as result, ring drawing received a nerf.
-Global condemn is unlikely to be reverted because of map dependency and incentives to slug/camp gens
-Sadako losing chase looks like a normalization of wraith cloaking however i think her passive was meant to work like a passive ability for mindgames. I don't understand this change but it does enable her to use PWYF much easier.
Tapes no longer giving passive condemn was a problem because it discouraged macro tape gameplay from sadako and also encouraged strange tunneling tactics. there is add-on called tape editing deck that makes you start with the tape. this add-on is what otz used to showcase how dangerous holding old tapes were. Like i said, you would proxy follow people with tape and when survivor tries using TV, you tp and interrupt them. break chase condemn build-up and so on. There is more skill in new sadako in managing tapes then this cheesy gameplay. If you like this type of gameplay, pig is good killer to learn for this gameplay.
3 gen entire game to kick gens is one of least skillful tactics for killer. there was lack of skill and killer skill expression in manipulating condemn to the killer's advantage. As i said, corral tv was map based and the way fix the map was 3 gen and slug because slugging is another method for corralling. Slugging was not good for her because you need down people to slug and she is m1 killer with weak chase.
Add-on pass did not need much because the add-on she had were really good. Not every killer needs to have 20 perfect add-on with same strength. Iri tape, remote control, ring drawing, bloody finger nails and new mother comb are perfect serviceable add-on's. Her invisibility was never strong for her. The number are too weak for anti-loop to function. It is like pig ambush dash problems. I think most of her add-on have good functionalities ideas but need to be expanded/buffed numerically for her to have a huge add-on variety set. Again, I do not know if this is good idea because Blight has a large variety of add-on that have high impact on the match and his add-on are listed to be nerfed.
Current iri-tape is same functionality as old base-kit. It is very clear that you don't understand that a big part of Sadako identity is building condemn and mori'ing survivors. Slugging and 3 gen were just methods to corral. Now this is no longer needed because of global condemn.There is no real incentive to slug and 3 gen does not work because of new TV cooldowns. Her kit is anti 3 gen currently. You describe this as a problem is direct contradiction to saying Global condemn as a problem.
Survivors being able to put tapes in every TV is drawback they put for weak survivors to not constantly die to condemn. It makes reverse condemn easier. Unfortunately, you cannot fix bad players in dbd. Bad players will still die to the mechanic regardless of hand-holding mechanics. They make too many gameplay mistakes. Dbd constantly try to balance for low-medium survivors in dbd. Not to talk too much about another killer named Trickster, balancing for low-medium players makes the game imbalanced for high-level survivors vs killer. I do not think this good mechanic however this mechanic is typical hand-holding survivor BVHR mechanic on the killer. This is one only mechanic I agree with you.
Hard disagree on some aspects you mention here.
Please look up my Ptb feedback that I asked @Rizzo to send me again. I posted it above.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
I am really scared for DS change. I really hope this is not going to end with another nerf.
I'm more scared about pig being mentioned.
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Please dont touch our Piggy in any negative way.
🐽
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@Smoe said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3597447#Comment_3597447
I don't care if you don't like repeating yourself. Thx
Then why are you here if you dont mind reading.
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@Theuthis said:
I'm skeptical until we see what the rework will actually entail. I was so disappointed when she got changed, they removed what made her unique and fun, while failing to address slugging and the changes only being a buff as long as one of the survivors doesn't understand that they should hold a tape at all times (which tbf happens almost every game). It doesn't make sense that you can hold onto a cursed tape for protection, it is completely backwards, the original approach was a lot more respectful of the source material.
Agree!
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Please read my other post above. Thx
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@Wiccamanplays said:
Can OP explain why a reversion would be such a big improvement for Sadako when her old iteration was widely placed at the bottom of Killer tierlists next to Trapper and Myers? And that was when gen-kicking was good, unlike now.
I learned to play DBD by playing a lot of old Sadako, by the logic of her being an M1 killer with beginner-friendly, decent perks (RIP CoB by the way) and once I got past about the 100 hour mark in playtime it got extremely difficult to get anything done. More experienced survivors could loop me easily without any anti-loop potential because her power got very little value in chase and I didn't have enough addons or perks to run her (to my mind extremely unsatisfying) condemned style of play. I contributed to the PTB feedback based on as much footage as I could watch at the time and the theoretical implications of the number changes to her kit, pointing out potential issues while generally believing the changes were in the right direction and maintained her identity. Even if she's not perfect now (global condemned spam is probably what they're going to change), I just like being able to play Sadako as a more cerebral killer without having to use an Iridescent addon to make her playable.
Please read the other posts above.
I dislike to repeat myself.
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@appleas said:
I don’t really have much issue with @radiantHero23 ’s two part suggestions in general.
Just some thoughts on my preference of how Sadako should be.
1) Teleport Condemned: Survivors within 16m of a powered TV receives 0.75 stack of Condemned when Sadako teleports. Survivors within 16m of Sadako after she completes her teleport animation receives 1 stack of Condemned.
This change prevents the mindless teleport spam strategy. If Survivors take a tape from the tv to “secure” their area, they won’t be subjected to Global Condemn and Sadako players have to be more careful about spam teleporting to all of the televisions as the potential Condemnation range gets smaller with each tv powered off.
2) Holding Tapes: Holding tapes does not prevent teleport Condemn. Survivors gain Condemn stacks passively over time while holding the tape. Survivors can only take tapes from powered tvs.
This prevents Survivors holding on to tapes indefinitely to prevent gaining stacks.
3) Depositing/tapes: Survivors can still deposit their tapes at any tv but will also be given a prompt for a specific tv. Depositing their tape at a non prompted tv will give the other 3 Survivors one stack of Condemned. Doing so at the prompted tv removes this penalty.
Survivors do not gain or lose Condemn stacks if they get hit while holding a tape. If a Survivor gets hooked while holding a tape, the tape is destroyed and the other 3 Survivors gain 1 stack of Condemned.
The concept behind this is to let Survivors decide if they want to deposit their tape ASAP and give their teammates more Condemn stacks or make the extra distance to nullify this penalty. Giving other Survivors Condemn stacks upon hooking encourages Sadako players to not slug.
That’s the main gist of how I would like the Condemn mechanic to be.
That are some great ideas.
I feel like i heard them before in my original thread.
Especially the all tv - part seems nice to me. It pushes real decisionmaking.
Like it!!!
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@jonifire said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3597386#Comment_3597386
Looks nice and the had looks a bit funny.
You did a really good job.
Thanks <3
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@jonifire said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3597383#Comment_3597383
Did you built it yourself?
Yep! Took 3 months.
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Reading my post from back then reminds me of something i can actually do now:
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@egg_ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3597373#Comment_3597373
Again, if you lost the first tape already to an m1 and sadako decides to target you, you have physically no way to pick up a second one to begin with, because Sadako can prevent you from doing that.
The only possible play against this playstyle is to be a sufficiently good looper to make it absolutely not worth it to commit to you while the rest of the team is doing gens, which tbh is fine for me cause she's literally just an m1 killer, but there's no way at all it's fair for a killer to be able to entirely bypass the hook mechanic against less consistent players in chase when the effort required to kill them isn't that much either
Im not, in any way, defending current Sadako. I share your sentiment. I want her reverted.
Basicly half of this post is me trying to point out the flaws of her rework to people that claim her to be in a good spot.
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@egg_ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3597366#Comment_3597366
What bodyblocks? She can phase through survivors while demanifested. If you're targeted you have physically no time to put the tape anywhere, just like you don't have time to pick one up after you've lost the first
Key word: targeted
You can bodyblock a survivro puitting in a tape. If played correctly, autoaim will always hit the bodyblocker.
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There where tons of supportive and constructive people in this thread. Some of my ideas where heavily discussed and i changed my mind about some of them so take some aspects with a grain of salt. The general sentimen is the same though.
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This was my second post:
"This is my part two to the Onryo change that is currently happening on the PTB.
For part 1 and my Review of the changes, pleaso go to this post. Its a wall of text but it is important to understand of why the changes in the PTB are bad and should not go to live.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3474449#Comment_3474449
In this post however i would love to gather constructive feedback on what SHOULD go live so that we have the best ideas in one place for the dev's to see, if posssible.
My suggestions are for her CURRENT live version. So what i think should be implemented to the live server. I will shortly mention the changes i would NOT implement in the end.
(Im sorry for the second mountain-like-post but im very concerned about the changes on the PTB and only want the best for all of us playing her and playing against her. So please, if your interested in making her a better killer like me, grab a cup of tea, sit down, read my suggestions and help out with your important and NEEDED constructive feedback.
First some changes to projection
1) Teleport cooldowns of TV's :
- Projection having 70 seconds
- Survivor interacting with TV's having 90 seconds
(This incentivices survivors to interact with TV's more often and helps Sadako to sustain her power. I thin anybody agrees with this change)
2) Projecting to a TV does two effects:
- Survivors within a 16m radius of the TV Sadako used projection on recieve one stack of condemned
- Survivors outside a 16m radius of the TV Sadako used projection on recieve 1/4 of one stack of condemned
(This is what i have comne up after the patch notes and a lot of good feedback on my first post. It is basicly the best of both worlds. It does retain the decisionmaking of the Onryo - player of which TV to teleport to and getting rewarded in the process while also building up passive condemned to give another incentive to the survivors to interact with the tapes and TV's. As i have stated in my first post, this makes that a lot of decisionmaking and mindgaming on part of the survivor and the killer doesn't get lost. With a passive rate of 1/4 of a stack per teleport to survivors NOT carrying a tape, Sadako does not have to get a cooldown on her teleport because the rate of the condemned building up is incredibly slow. (28 teleports are needed for a survivor NOT carrying a tape and NOT being near Sadako when she projects to a TV to fully condemn survivor.) The removal of the cooldown idea will preserve her feeling fluid and not sluggish and clunky. It will also preserve her ability to quickly move from place to place to create pressure around the map.
The rate of which condemned is gained passively could be lowered to 1/5 of a stack if it is still too much. Making her fluid and fast to play has the highest priority, in my opinion, for the killer player having a fun experience during the trial.)
2) A part of iridescent videotape should become basekit to give sadako more control over her power and a reward for gaining a hit, making condemned a more impactful mechanic due to it coming into play more often because TV's are being turned on faster. The iridescent Videotape - addon should be nerfed to only turning on the two last TV's turned off by projection. The iridescent Videotape - addon could also be completely reworked due to 1/4 of its effect being made basekit.
(This change is one of the most important and maybe most controversial. Please remember that the Iridescent Videotape only turns on TV's turned off by projection, not the ones turned off by a survivor. It will therefore not come into play that often if survivors interact with TV's more often. Overall the addon would be nerfed which is fine regarding all the other positive changes coming to her.
I also want to keep the satisfying "bing bing bing bing"-sound that plays during the Iridescent Videotape - addon's effect ------ Pls smile and nod right now if you like this sound as well :D )
Next i want to address the changes i want to suggest to the interaction with the cursed tapes:
1) Survivors can inset the tape to two TV's close to each but still a bit away form the one where the tape is retrieved from. This is one TV more than the one TV, which is the live version right now, and way less than all TV's, which is the change on the PTB.
(This change is one of the biggest, most impactfull and most necessary in my opinion, because it decides on how easy or difficult it is to remove condemned. Removing condemned should be a risky endeavour for the survivor whiole giving the Sadako much needed slowdown. I think we can all agree with that. On the live servers, the Sadako player can predict the correct TV, the survivor hjass to put their tape in and this can create some unfair scenarios for the survivor carrying it mostly ending in a mori. This can feel extremely unfair in soloq and is hard to counter with teamwork and impossible to counter without teamwork / the Sadako having 5-8 stacks of safe the best for last (interrupting the survivor from inserting the tape completely). I dont think she should punish soloq more than swf or a coordinated group in gereral, therefore the change that the survivor can insert the tape to two TV's rather than one. This could even be incresed to three TV's if still too strong. This idea is close to the change Pig got to her boxes to prevent unfair scenarios. On the PTB right now, tapes can be inserted to any TV availible. This makes it extremely easy for survivors to remove condemned, making it almost impossible to build up condemned at all. On top of that it does not really ad any slowdown at all because surivors dont have to travel large distances at all, giving Sadako eventually 5-10 seconds of slowdown per tape, which is not worth the effort compared ot applying condemned. This changes makes harassing survivors that want to insert their tapes more fair while giving Sadako the much needed slowdown everyone is asking for. It also does not remove the Sadako being able to prevent the survivor from inserting their tape, which preserves the prediciton game on the side of the Onryo This makes possible to mori a survivor if they make huge mistakes in planning and strategising throughout a match / dont coordinate well / dont help out their teammates, while giving a satisfying and game changing reward to the Onryo - player.)
2) When a survivor carrying a cursed tape is hooked, all other survivors gain a stack of condemned and the tape cursed tape is destroyed in the process
(This is an awesome change that is in the current PBT. It incentivizes the Onryo - player to hook survivors rather than slugging them. On top of that it also serves as a second way to spread condemned next to projection, making the condemned - mechanic more part of the gameplay during match as a whole. Due to the other changes i could see it only being 1/2 of a stack to not be too oppressive but regarding that Sadako is not the best chaser i dont think she will get many hookstages that fast. However, the hookstages she will get, will definitely be more impactful to the whole team. Lastly this removes the incentive to tunnel a the survivor that is hooked, because he lost the tape and therefore isnt gaining condemned on the hook or from the tape, while still haveing to get rid of the condemned. If this has the possiblility to become too oppressive for the hooked survivor, it could be implemented, that :
The survivor being hooked loses one stack of condemned in the process. Sharing the curse to all others)
3) A survivor that retrieves a tape form a TV does not gain a stackc of condemned in the process.
(I know, i know.... this is not lore accurate. This is a change that is also currently on the PTB. In regards to all the changes to projection and the cursed tapes, i think giving survivors an additional stack of condemned upon retrieving a tape is actually overkill and a bit too much. Therefore i think this should be removed.)
Now to the part that most players are interested about. Sadakos chase potential:
1) Increase the invisibility duration after manifesting by 33% (Effect of Old newspaper - addon made basekit)
2) Increase the invisiblility duration while demanifested by 50% (Effect of Reiko's watch - addon made basekit)
(Both of these addons currently enable Sadako's chase potential being mindgames after demanifesting at pallet loops. Chase potential should in my opinion not be locked behind addons, therefore their effect should be made basekit. I think most players would agree with this. If played correctly the Sadako player would get a hit at the loop while the survivor has enough room to make a good read and therefore avoiding the hit. In my opinion these are the changes she needs to be more powerful in chase, allowing for a wide range of creative mindgames around structures while preserving her strategic - oriented style of gameplay.)
3) The Onryo can not be stunned by a pallet while demanifested
(I dont really get this change at all, even after testing it on the PTB. However it has no negative impact on her chase at all, therefore can be inplemented in my opinion.)
Now to her addons:
1) The Ring drawing - addon not spreading condemned to survivors if they heal survivors from the dying state.
(This is also a good change from the PTB. Together with hooks spreading condemned to other survivors i dont see a reason for Sadako to slug survivors any more that the usual slugging that happens in all other killer games. Therefore disincentivizing an unhealthy playstyle. In my opinion, this addon could also gain a totally new effect, because its effect will still be very strong after the nerf.)
2) The Reiko's watch - addon and the Old newspaper - addon should be reworked due to their effects being added to the Onryo's basekit.
(Nothing to add here)
3) The Remote control - addon reveals survivors auras that are with in a 12 meter radius of a TV after projection for 7 seconds.
(Another great change on the PTB. Sadly with the changes on the PTB this addon would become pointsless again due to the TV's being turned off for a majority of the match. With the changes i suggested to projection and the interaction wioth cursed video tapes this would be a strong aura - reading - addon worth the addon - slot and worth the rarity.)
4) The Cabin sign - addon reduces the cooldown of a TV used by projection by 7 seconds.
(The last good change from the PTB i want to mention. Due to the cooldown of a TV being lowered to 70 seconds it is fine that this addon is nerfed accordingly.)
This is all i can think off.
Now it is your turn.
These are the addons n that i have not mentioned before and how much of a change i think they need:
- Iridescent Videotape (ultra rare) --> either it turnes on two TV's, halfing its current effect due to the changes to her basekit or rework it entirely
- Distorted foto (very rare) --> complete rework or heavy changes
- Tape editing deck (very rare) --> fine in my opinion, could be changed due to the changes to her basekit
- Telephone (very rare) --> complete rework or heavy changes that dont make it unfair to play against
- VCR (very rare) --> fine in my opinion, could maybe get an additional effect though
- Bloody fingernails (rare) --> fine
- Mother's comb (rare) --> could use a complete rework in my opinion
- Rickety pinwheel (rare) --> needs a complete rework
- Well water (rare) --> fine? maybe buff it in numbers
- Clumb of hair (uncommon) --> complete rework or heavy changes
- Reiko's watch (uncommon) --> complete rework due to effect being basekit
- Sea-soaked cloth (uncommon) --> complete rework
- Well stone (uncommon) --> rework or buff in numbers in my opinion
- Yoichis fishing net (uncommon) --> fine
- Mother's mirror (common) --> fine
- Old newspaper (common) --> complete rework due to its effect being basekit
- Videotape copy (common) --> fine as meme - addon or complete rework. Maybe along the line of the PTB rework, making it only give global condemned but lowered, on top of extra BP
Please remember that this is based on the effects of the current live version of the addon not the PTB - version.
The current effects can also be found here if you want to look them up : https://deadbydaylight.fandom.com/wiki/Sadako_Yamamura#Add-ons_for_Deluge_of_Fear
For my reasoning of why i think some addons should be reworked please look at my first post linked in the beginning of this post.
I ask you guys now.
Please think of creative and fun addon ideas for all the addons stated above and chare them in this post.
Please also give feedback on the changes i suggest should be made to the Onryo.
Maybe i have overlooked some aspects that can become problematic or unfun for both sides.
We need as much constructive feedback as possible to have a chance of an impactful, needed and positive change to the killer we all like so much.
Regarding some changes from the PTB i DONT WANT to come to live:
- When a surviror, carrying a cursed tape, is hit by the Onryo with a basic attack, they gain a stack of condemned in the process. (This is a very bad and unhealthy change as many people have pointed out already. It actually makes slugging a survivor, letting them get picked up, tunneling them and downing them again pretty viable in mori'ing them relatively fast. If dropped from elevation without even having counterplay. With my changes suggested, the Onryo would have enough possiblilities to spread condemned via hooking and using projection to the right TV's, that this mechanic is absolutely not needed. )
- Carrying a cursed tape no longer builds up condemned passively or via the Onryo projecting to a TV. (This is the second very bad change on the PTB. This change makes holding a tape more of a safety feature rather than a threat. Tapes should have the incentive to be delivered to the targed TV's as fast as possible. This change would negate this incentive making Sadako less powerful. However, the rate at which condemned is build up passively could be reduced)
- The Onryo loses and can't enter chase while demanifested and cannot gain bloodlust while demanifested. (This change seems good on paper however hurts her more than it helps. First: if Sadako keeps the passive condemnation on a survivor through them carrying a tape, she HAS to be able to chase and enter chase while demanifested. Otherwise she could just tunnel a survivor to their TV and interrupt the survivor when they want to insert the tape. This would be the exact same, like when a pig right now decides to tunnel someone with an active reverse Beartrap while crouched. It basicly guarantees a kill. This is unhealthy on Pig and would be unhealthy on Sadako. Teh passive condemnation only stops while mid chase there for ehse has to be able to enter chase while demanifested. Second: The Onryo is still a 4.6 movement speed killer in chase, which is problematic on many maps and specific tiles. Therefore i do believe that she sadly needs bloodlust right now to keep up with survivors in chase.)
This is all i can say.
I wanted to post a picture of a little rotten - remains - Sadako - statue i built to motivate you all in giving your thoughts however i cant do this apparently.
Therefore: im very interested in your ideas and your constructive feedback regarding the addons and the basekit suggestions.
I will try to keep up with all ideas.
Thank you very much for reading. <3"
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Ok guys: HERE WE GO!!!
"Dear BHVR and all the people reading and writing in this forum,
this is my first post here.
Up until this point ive just read posts and havent really interacted with anyone.
However, this PTB as me so emotional that i cannot but give my opinions on the matter at hand.
A little information to back up my opinion. Im currently the player on official steam stats with the 4th highes condemn rate on sadako in this game and have played her since realease up to this point.
Therefore i want to talk in depth about the changes you want to establish and whether these are good or not.
First things first: her basekit changes to projection.
--> Sadako now condemns all survivors not carrying a tape when she teleports to a TV by 3/4 of a stack
I dont like this change at all. DBD is a game where the killer and the survivor should try to outplay the other side and be rewarded with an effect. May that be a hit, a down, or in the case of Sadako a stack of condemned.
Chasing survivors into TV´s was a skillfull interaction between surivor and killer where the survivor looked back and predicted the Sadako´s next move. If she teleports, the survivor was able to do a 180 turn and run in the oppsite direction of the TV OUTPLAYING the Sadako and not getting condemned. If the Sadako was more patient or the survivor not that mindfull, the Sadako got a stack of condemned and the game continued.
With the condemned effect being map wide this skillfull interaction is completely gone.
This is NOT good and NOT how this should work. teleporting is now basicly a thing you do on the fly to a random TV with no thought put into it and definitely not a decision you make.
---> Projection cooldown has been reduced to 70 seconds
This is a good change. This is what she needed!!! Survivors had no incentive to interact with TV´s because the cooldown from them interacting with it was bigger than the one from Sadako using it. This change implemented alone incentivises survivors to pick up tapes to neagte your power of fast map mobility.
It would have been even better if it was that if she gets a hit after demanifesting at any means, the last TV turned off via projection would be turned on again.
-->Cooldown by survivor putting tape in is increased to 90 seconds
Also a good change. This makes survivors interct with the TV´s more often. Be carefull however: if survivors turn off her TV´s more often, she has no map mobility and has to run around large maps making her loose a TON of time. Therefore again it would be good if she was able to put on a TV instantly BASEKIT.
--> The Onryo has a 15 second cooldown on projection
Two points i posted, that survivors woth the changed cooldowns on the TV´s now have an incentive to interact your power to stop your fast map mobility. This change makes it virutally not even a problem for survivors at all. A 15 second cooldown means, that Sadako (even if the survivors DONT interact with the TV´s) has no fast map mobility. This was one of her big strenghts and with this its completely gone. Sadako teleports to a TV and has to walk around the map for 15 seconds without being able to use her power at all. This limits Sadakos map traversal in an way too big way in relation to her not being good in chase but thats a point i will come to later.
Overall, this is a terrible change and it goes hand in hand with another terrible change. This cooldown is basicly in place, so that the Sadako cant teleport to multible TV´s gaining a TON of condemned on survivors in seconds (around 2 minutes to fully condemn survivors that do absolutely nothing about you).However i said that the map wide change is terrible as a whole therefore this change is as well.
On top of that, this cooldown makes her very slow and clunky to play and does NOT feel good.
Now for the changes to her cursed tapes.
--> getting hit with a basic attack gives a survivor holding a cursed tape a stack of condemned
This in a bubble sounds like a good change. Sadako now has multible new ways to build up condemned. However, the effect of this change stands and falls with Ssadako as a whole. In the changes to projection i stated that Sadako looses a lot of map moblility due to the survivors interacting more with TV´s and the 15 seconds cooldown. Therefore she looses her strenght to be able to pop up everywhere aroundd the map to chase and hit survivors. This immediately lowers the effectiveness of this change because if the survivor picked up a tape and know Sadako is not near (WHICH SURVIVORS KNOW!!!) there is no risk of using a Tape and putting it to a TV. Additionally this change is also limited very hard by the fact that Sadako has no real chase potential. Again a point i will copme to later, but it is important to mention here. A survivor with a strong set up or basic understanding of looping is able to negate a hit from her for a long time is necessary (carrying a tape would be one of these scenarios) making this change effectively not very usefull. However, this change CAN come in handy in a very strong way. On the ptb i tested to just hit, down and slug survivors with tapes and hover around their position until they got picked up again. Then i downed them again before they where able to put their tapers in a TV. This was scarely effective. I only had to do this a couple of times and the survivor i hit blinked red during falling to the ground. This is hard slugging survivors to basicly tunnel them out of the game. What i heard from people criticizing her playstyle way that they hated how much slugging related it was and how it made games boring and unfun. This change is exaclty that but its incentivized in her basekit NOT by an addon. Therefore this change is good as a concept and could be implemented to her kit. However it should not give the survivor a stack whgen he gets put into the dying state. Only healthy to injured or injured to deep wound.
--> whe Sadako hooks a survivor with a tape, all survivors gain a stack od condemned and the tape is destroyed
This part made me so happy to see. Hooking a survivor and gaining passive pressure / reward by doing so. This change incentivizes her to hook survivors rather than slugging them and also makes for some strategic decisionmaking because the tape will be destroyed. The survivor looses his objective to ut back the tape but keeps his stacks of condemned, therefore having to pick up another tape and the other survivors gain pressure from the killer. An absolutely awesome change to create pressure on the whole team. However, this is only a good effect if its seen in a bubble. What i mean by that will be expained in the next part but it IS less effective in killing survivors than slugging and tunneling them from the ground to the ground.
--> a cursed tape no longer builds up condemned passively and survivors carring a tape are not effected by the map wide condemned through teleporting
This is the first change that makes the other two ways of inflicting condemned not really threatening. Because of no longer getting condemned from carrying a tape the risk of taking it at all is basicly zero. Not just removes it any risk but it actually makes the tapes a safety wall for the survivors against Sadako and her curse. A healthy survivor carrying a tape will NOT get condemned through tapes and only via Sadako hitting them. The problem is, and i hate to say it again that i will talk about that later, Sadako is not strong in chase. She will NOT get many hits on most maps if survivors are playing safe. She also has no ability to instantly down a survivor so she can hit you but not stop you from inserting a tape. This is a TERRIBLE change and should not be implemented.
--> survivors now can put their cursed videotape in any TV on the map
This is the second change that make her tape non-threatening. Survivos carrying a tape basicly have to walk 4-8 seconds to negate all the pressure the Sadako has accumulated AND turn off her power of map mobility by doing so for 90 seconds on top of that. This wasted almost no time for the survivor compared to them running around the map to do it. This puts Sadako into a loose - loose situation if the survivor has a tape. Her power is basicly completely controled by the survivors. Even if they are right in front of you this does not help. Up until this point the only way of harassing a survivor and making them not inserting their tape was using safe the best for last. With 5 or more stacks the hit cooldown animation was shorter than the survivor taking time to put in the tape. This will still be possible however will be ultimately pointless because the survivor can just run to the next TV if picked up and put in their tape. The only way to gain anything out of this intercation for the Sadako is, as i stated before to slug the survivor and wait for them to be picked up to slug them again.
Regarding the change as a whole is brings another element to the table. The Sadako had to figure out which TV the survivor needed in the first place. This again was SKILLFULL gameplay from the killers side. It was incredibly risky but had a hight reward. If the Sadako figured out the TV of the survivor she would be able to harass that survivor by teleporting to exact that TV and chasing them, downing them and either slugging or hooking them (both are fine because the Sadako only wants to waste the time of the surivivor until the TV they need is turned back on again)(with the changes to hooking survivors, slugging them would actually be thw orse option for the Sadako).
With the TV ´s now all taking the survivors tapes this prediciting and harassing is NOT GONE but absolutely pointless. Finding out what TV means nothing if they can just run up to the next and putting the tape in on top of you having a 15second cooldown to teleportand harass them gain. This removes skillfull expression and the ability to harass survivors carrying tapes on top of mkaing it extremely easy to remove condemned making them less powerfull for Sadako and more of a safety measure for the survivors.
In your post you stated that that they would be more threatful, however you made them way less of a threat than they are right now on the live servers. Right now, a surivor picking up a tape ALONE BY THEMSELVES puts them in in a huge risk because the Sadako has the ability to ONLY focus them and harass them. This being risky and only strong if played right and having counterplay via good coordination and teamwork from the survivors side.
These two changes remove any threat from the tapes with no advantage for the Sadako player.
Overall these two changes are the worst of the bunch and should NOT be implemented.
However, because i dont just want to complain, here is a solution for the Sadako being too oppresive if she has figured out the traged TV: make it two TV´s close to each other where the survivor can put in their tape.
On to the next changes: demanifestation.
--> the Onryo no longer can be stunned by a pallet while demanifested
No. This is not it. This change does not impact her negatively however, it doesnt impact her positvely as well. First of all, a survivor that is NOT dumb will know about the Sadako´s ability to not being able to get stunned therefore just wainting at the pallet until the Sadako is fully manifested to stun her.
In the chase that the Sadako is not fully manifested and the survivor and the survivor drops the pallet the Sadako will have to break it. Sadako doesnt get stunned but doesnt get a hit either and has to break it because she does not have an ability to deal with pallets faster. On top of that the survivor can just run away so yeah....
This is not different than to how she is now except that survivors will greed pallets a bit less, giving Sadako no chance of getting a hit in chase in a faster way.
--> Chases are prevented while being demaifested but also makes her not being able to bloodlust
This is a medallion with two sides. The positive part is what is stated in the patch notes. It is harder to keep track of her (FOR A NOT COORDINATED TEAM, THAT CALL OUT HER POSITION). However it is also pretty easy to keep vaguely track of her lullaby that is heard when shes nearby. Good change. The negative part is her loosing bloodlust.
I know this is a difficult topic because bloodlust is a controversial aspect of the game.
However, we have to look on why it is implemented in the first place because Sadako is a prime example for it. While in chase Sadako has no chasing power and is therefore considered an M1 killer. She is NOT getting faster like Wraith does. She even slows herself down while demanifetsing mid chase loosing distance in the process. She is a killer that NEEDS bloodlust and im not proud to say that. So we have two outcomes with her loosing bloodlust while demanifested:
1) she manifests and plays normal killer gaining bloodlust in the process and with it loosing a lot of time doing so (manifest --> chase --> bloodlust --> maybe hit --> chase --> bloodlust --> hit --> down (not including more time demanifesting to teleport somewhere else)), which is very bad.
2) she stays demanifested but cannot keep up with survivors only breaking pallets she cant get stunned by but not gaining hits, therefore not gaining pressure
This in the long term is actually a nerf to her current chase potential which is already pretty low.
Right now she can be fast while demanifested negating the effects of the slowdown of manifetsing and surprising survivors with mindgames of her post-manifested state due to no red stain and unclear visibility.
This had to be buffed! Reikos Watch and newspaper feel necessary to really play these mindgames effectively even against good survivors and they are not made basekit. Not even the base numbers are increased.
I see it compared to Wraith a lot who also looses chase when cloaking. However:
1) Wraith is faster than normal while cloaked
2) Wraith can bodyblock survors with it
These are things Sadako cant do.
Ive also seen the idea of play with your food on her. While i understand the idea i dont like it when a killer HAS to use certain perks to become viable. Enough said.
In regards to Reikos watch and newspaper lets look at the Addon pass she got that was supposed to make her less viable addons more usable and her overperfoming ones less NEEDED.
I was very interested after being dissapointed by her base kit changes what the addons would bring to the table because most of them are bad.
First i will state the addons that are good right now:
- Iridescent Videotape (overperforming and problematic)
- Tape editing deck
- Ring drawing (overperforming and problematic)
- Bloody fingernails
- Well water (debatebly)
- Reikos watch
- Yoichis fishing net (debatebly)
- Cabin sign (overperforming from at least my point of view because i use it EVERY SINGLE MATCH)
- Mothers mirror (debatebly)
- Old Newspaper
The iridescent Videotape is problematic because it is needed to keep up with survivors right now. This addon is used so much because it lets Sadako use her power reliably, getting rewarded for hits while not being restricted by super long cooldowns.
In my opinion it is NOT NEEDED to play her well but serves more like an addon that makes the player not being pressured to play absolutely perfectly because wrong teleports (mistakes) can literally be resetted.
SADAKO DOES NOT NEED THIS ADDON TO BE VIABLE. HOWEVER IT FEELS NEEDED MOSTLY DUE TO PLAYERS MAKING MISTAKES. (Which is fine)
All it needed was to reduce the effect of the Addon by half and make one TV come back on basekit. Therefore the addon would feel less needed and would be nerfed to a maximum of 3 TV´s coming back after a hit, therefore being less oppressive.
--> iridescent videotape now gives the survivor only one TV to put their tape in
This is how Sadako works right now and it is locked behind an addon. As i mentioned before predicitng the target TV of a survivor was a skillfull and risky play. Locking a skillfull play that is otherwise NOT possible behind an iridescent addons baffles me to be honest.
This addon is now more needed than ever. If not for its strenght but for its effect to express skill form the killers side. I brought this addon very little and mostly used the cabin sign to use my TV#s faster. This change makes we want to autolock it in my loadout.
VERY BAD
The Ring drawing was the second problematic one, rewarding Sadako for slugging and therefore creating the slug-condemn playstyle, which is absolutely unhealthy for her and the game.
--> Ring drawing now only condemns survivors doing healing actions from injured to healthy
Very good change. Together with the change to incentivice hooking, slugging is absolutely not the way to go.
It will still be a very strong addon due to the recent healing changes, so it will not drop in usage in my opinion.
VERY GOOD
--> Reikos watch being nerfed in numbers
This changes is pointless and bad and the only explanation for it is that it was used to much, therefore having to be nerfed by exel spreadsheet.
The addon was used to give Sadako chase potential that she desperately needed.
Instead of looking why it has such a high pick rate it got nerfed because of pure pick rate.
All it needed was to make half of it basekit and nerf it accordingly or make it fully basekit and rework the addon entirely. Dont worry she wont be a strong chasing killer if this addon wa smake basekit because:
1) she is still a M1 killer having to hit survivors two times
2) the survivor still having counterplay to avoid hits at loops if they play correctly
The change reminds me of the nerf to marvins blood and the intended nerfs to billy's engravings. They are pointsless and only happen because the addons is used too much. If made basekit and reworked / nerfed accordingly, the numbers would also go down normally.
This just hurts her chase potentiall even more and take even more skill expression away from her and the survivors shes playing against.
VERY BAD
Other good addons like the cabin sign got changed due to the cooldown of projection being lower, whci is understandable and fine.
To you the reader, i ask you now to compare her addons from before to now with this Addon pass.
Back?
Good.
You have certianly realized, that most of her addons actually haven changed much or at all.
Therefore: her bad addons right now:
- Remote Control
- Distorted foto
- Telephone
- Mothers comb
- Rickety pinwheel
- clumb of hair
- sea soaked cloth
- well stone
- videotape copy
Lets start with the (only) positive change: The remote control
--> survivors no longer have to carry a tape for their auras being revealed
Awesome. This is a great change and could be implemented immediately. However, with the changes to her basekit and the flaws the changes would bring to it, this addon now has the problem of not coming into play much often due to TV' being turned off most of the time due to how easy it it to retrieve and insert tapes.
GOOD CHANGE IN A BUBBLE
The other addons are bad right now and underperfoming, because their effects are pointsless for gameplay, like the distorted photo. A survivor that is near is most of the time in the face of the killer. Therefore this addon does NOTHING. This addon helps with stealthing survivors that crouch around the map to not get found.
Most medium to good survivors dont do that, making the effect absolutely pointless.
For its rarity this addon has a pointless effect that is just buffed in numbers
VERY BAD
Same goes with other addons that just have bda effects like the rickety pinwheel.
This addon gives oblivious to survivors around TV's.
Sadako moves most of the time demanifested around the map, meaning, she has no terror raidus but a lullaby. The lullaby is heard even if the survivor is oblivious, making this addon ultimately pointless in effect NOT in numbers.
As you can see, this "addon pass" did only nerf her best perfoming addons, one in a good way (ring drawing) others in a very bad way (iri tape and reikos watch) and did NOT improve her already bad addons.
Overall im very dissapointed by the addons and the changes to them feel extremely rushed and not well thought out.
I can just point to a post from @OnryosTapeRentals, who described the addons in more detail in his post: The Onryō Rework: An unfortunate downgrade [7.1.0 PTB Feedback]
(sorry that the text is that big, not intendet. Again, this is my first post 😔 )
OVERALL VERY BAD
What happened here:
The Rework of this killer makes her less skilled to play and less skilled to play against therefore KILLING the fun a lot of player had playing her and playing against her.
Overall, the changes feel clumped together and not well thought out.
What was needed: (diectly to the devs)
1) teleport cooldowns of TV's swaped and lowered : done --> really good
2) part of iridescent tape basekit to give sadako more power over her power and a reward for taking a hit, making condemned a more impactfull mechanic due to it coming into play more often due to TV's being turned on faster.
3) making it that survivors can inset the tape to two TV's close to each other, to make harassing them more hard but not unfair like it can become right now. This also incentivices survivor to interact with tapes more because the threat of being mori´d is lower.
4) ring drawing not working on survivors in the dying state to healthy: done --> really good
--> on top of that you implemented a mechanic that rewards hooking survivors instead of slugging them, which would NOT be too oppressive with her current iteration if made basekit. It would make her a more healthy killer overall whule not making her overly strong --> extremely good
5) Reikos watch and newspaper basekit to give her more chase potential --> not done
--> instead you implemented a "buff" that nobody asked for and that has NO impact on her chasing as a whole due to it not being able to give the Sadako-player a chance for a hit. On top of that, you nerfed Reikos watch with no apparent reason other than it being overused --> extremely bad
6) Addons are more meanigfull and different to warrant the use over other addons --> not done because most effects have stayed the same, therefore addons that where used a lot will still be used a lot.
Final Conclusion: (directly to the devs)
"She crawled out of the TV right into out hearts" This line made me actually very sad / deeply depressed because of the changes you have planned for her. There are a lot of players like myself that have dedicated a lot of time (since her release) and effort to learn this killer and she therefore became very close to OUR hearts.
These changes destroy what we (the players) have built up for over one year without clear reasoning. It makes me loose faith into your decisionmaking as a whole.
If these are the changes you come up after one year of nothing at all, to say that im very dissapointed would be a huge understatement.
If you CANT HELP HER IN THE RIGHT WAY, pls dont CHANGE HER AT ALL.
Therefore my best suggestion regarding these changes on the ptb is to NEVER let it go live as a package and go back to the drawing board.
I BEG you to think this through carefully. (crying face)😥
Thank you or reading"
That was my first ptb post.
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@egg_ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3597360#Comment_3597360
Please explain to me what you can do if you get targeted other than delay the inevitable mori
Bodyblocks and put the tape in ANY tv
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@Rizzo said:
If those are correct I can send you a DM with the content of the threads.
That would be nice. The other posts are important as well to prove a point, but im fine with only my input if its not possible to access the other opinions.
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@egg_ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3596745#Comment_3596745
That's kind of a dumb statement, people dislike new sadako because if she targets you specifically there's nothing you can do about it considering she can effortlessly prevent you from interacting with the tapes entirely. Same problem old sadako had btw
Nothing you can do?