radiantHero23
radiantHero23
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- radiantHero23
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
They should just remove survivors. How they dare to use items and add-ons.
Nah, let them start on hooks. That way the killer gets points for killing them.
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Enjoy while it lasts. Survivors have already started to adapt from what I've seen. A lot of shift w in my games.
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@Nos37 said:
"Why is no one complaining about survivors tunneling gens?"
Generators cannot post on the forums, otherwise there would be many complaints.
Imagine generator complains during the Gen kick meta
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
- You know killer will kick this gen with Pop, so it's better to finish it before this happen.
- Healing is waste of time thanks to BHVR. They nerfed healing to ground. It's pointless to heal if you are not dead on hook.
- BHVR nerfed boons into ground as well. And killers are rarely using hex totems. There is no point to cleanse totems.
- Chests are waste of time. Bringing item in lobby is better.
- This hardly happens unless it's last gen. If last gen is about 50 - 60% , it's smart to focus on gen and finish it.
Blame BHVR for current survivor play. They nerfed chase perks. They nerfed heal perks and med-kits. Boons are pointless and weak. Only gens left.
And all killers are tunnelling so hard, so it's better to finish gens before killer make someone out.
What if the killer doesn't have pop, the killer has 3 hooks on 3 different people and the 4th Gen is done.
Would you pop the final one in his face even if it means that you go down?
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@JudithMorel said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3601091#Comment_3601091
Hard to ignore such a bad take though, WoO is far from problematic. Mostly a skill issue if killers think they are losing games because of WoO. There are actual problematic perks that should be nerfed, so instead of wasting thought on WoO we should be focusing the perks that are actually problematic.
What is this argument. Have you even read what I wrote down?
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@MoNosEmpire said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3600929#Comment_3600929
These two perks have been an issue for me when it comes to pig too.
They are not even that good. Nerf the screaming. Won't stop me from getting head pops on a regular basis.
Understanding Rng and survivor movement is key to the strategic skill cieling of pig.
In the last few days, I wanted to improve my map awareness because I felt, that I crutches on Bbq a little too hard.
Yesterday I played 5 rounds of Pig with Stbfl only. I got 2 4ks, 2 3ks and one 2k. Overall, I got 7 head pops.
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@MoNosEmpire said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3600942#Comment_3600942
I wouldn't call it RNG when killers know its very oppressive and its always either scream interrupt perks or severe interaction cooldown perks (because they know it's practically a free kill). That's always expected regardless of killer unless they're a newbie.
Lol...
The searches of the traps are regulated via a random number generator, Rng for short.
How much searches you have to do is literally Rng. The Pig has no control about that. She can however use it to her advantage.
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I thought we are more logical these days and try to look at the whole picture. Not just our little bubble.
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@TSQuint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3596651#Comment_3596651
Incorrect. Also, who is "we"? The complainers that are never happy? The year one players that have left?
The players that gave their supportive and constructive feedback on the Ptb.
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@Nazzzak said:
It sounds like you are using it in a way that is detrimental to your team. Burning through resources is pretty poor game sense. It's handy in helping to avoid dead zones, not to just waste resources.
Some maps are so problematic, that a lot of killers literally cant keep up with the amount of recourses. Loop one round, pre drop, go to yellow. Repeat. All while your team is doing 3 gens in the distance. This is how the killer loses 3 gens in 90 seconds. They can just leave chase, sure. But what if all survivors play like that?
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@saintjimmy456 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3600954#Comment_3600954
If you dislike using it that is fine, I never use it myself.
But we aren't posting on the forum volunteering that the most used survivor perk in the game be nerfed because we don't like it. We just don't use it.
I do not buy that a survivor would ask for a perk they use to be made weaker. I just don't, it makes no sense. If they think Windows makes the game too easy, they can just stop using it. I think it more likely a killer would post something like this.
Please stop with the us vs them. We are all players. It doesnt matter what side we play. If a survivor finds this perk to be unhealthy for the survivor role, they have the right to say that. Its like if i say, while playing killer, that noed rewards you for stuff you didnt do. I have the right to that opinion. We try to be open minded. OP is a great example of someone that thinks outside of their bubble while playing survivor. We should support that.
WoO is a great survivor perk. I dont use it, because i genuinely want to learn maps and pathing. I feel like this perk makes me learn less about map layout and tile structure but how i can be an effective bee-line-drone. This automizes gameplay. Something nobody likes. I want to play against a player when playing killer. Not against a perk that tells them where to go. I know that this argument can be taken and adapted to many situations in the game, which is true. Multible things can be problematic at the same time.
OP also finds this perk problematic, therefore requesting a nerf.
Not every player likes to see the game burn while using the best stuff. Some people genuinely care about the games gameplay and balance.
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@Mandy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3598130#Comment_3598130
The difference between the Killer Tweaks and Killer Updates, the update is invariably bigger with more changes made - killer tweaks tend to be more numbers balancing than anything else.
Thank you for clarifying
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@saintjimmy456 said:
Immediately after MFT gets a re-work, here come the killers pretending to be survivors asking that Windows gets a re-work.
What survivor who loves using Windows would make a post asking that the devs adjust it to make it weaker?
If you really are a survivor asking for a perk you use to be made worse (which I doubt) because you find the game "ez" and want a challenge - why don't you just stop using it.
Us VS them is strong in this one. I dislike using it as survivor as well. But I have my own reasoning for that.
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@MoNosEmpire said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3600874#Comment_3600874
Tunnelling is not the issue, its trap timers. They're too short and if disrupted 2x (even by screaming) then you're usually as good as dead since the killer camps the last 2 boxes usually when chasing survivors.
Depends on your Rng.
It's very short if certain Rng and addons are in play. It's not a problem at all if these are not.
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I WAS SUMMONED 🐽
The pigs traps are in a fine spot. Right now. After the number changes from the upcoming update, they might not he anymore.
A tunneling pig is unfun but not unfair.
Yes. You might die to it. However, there are things you can do against her.
First: a Pig that is tunneling you first hook while crouched for over 2 minutes (150 seconds to be exact) is like a Bubba camping you in the basement. She's throwing the game. Gens will be done at this point if your teammate aren't bananas. In the case your the gens aren't done, maybe blame them not the pig.
Second thing you can do is abusing the pigs weakness. The early game. You have a trap. That means you went down. In what you describe, you even went down twice. Pigs not that strong in chase. Delaying the first trap for a long time is absolutely possible on most maps. It your team gets downed this fast against a Pig, maybe point the finger at someone else. If you get downed later the chances of escape are definitely not 0. If your team gets to escape and you are the last in the trial, you can escape through the hatch with an active bear trap. This needs teamplay. So yes. It's not guaranteed to work.
Thrid thing you can do is make her mad. If she follows you, you can just sit on a box and start working. Most pigs will panic and either down you or even hook you. This might be what you want. Getting hooked pauses the timer. And you can reassess the situation and plan accordingly. If the pig camp you while hooked, shes not different from any other killer in the game.
Next, you can analyse the Rng during the match, predicting the number of searches you have to do. If your teammate took a very long time, they might have had a 4 search trap. You already know one trap due to you already having finished one. Now you can predict how long your second trap will take. Then plan accordingly.
Last but not least, teammates can bodsblock for you while searching a box. They might go down for it but it's worth it if they haven't been hooked yet. This will keep you alive.
The Pig is weak in chase and strong with her traps. That's her main strength. It's lethal if used correctly. Therfore you have to play smart to win her games.
The only nerfs to the traps, that would not make her awfully weak and that are balanced are in my opinion are number changes to the gear addons and the jigsaw scetch and the survor being able to die while searching a box. This would damper the lethality of the traps drastically even if it doesn't seem lite it would at first.
Please don't he upset at piggy. She's really not the problem right now.
Thanks for reading, you local 2000+ hours Pig main 🐽
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Definitely. That and the usual soloq problems in coordination.
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@ratcoffee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3600328#Comment_3600328
True I forgot that it's also a good learning tool
Funny.
Its the most often used argument in defense of the perk.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3600328#Comment_3600328
See personally I don't buy that, cause IMO WoO actively hinders you from learning anything, because there is literally no requirement to remember tiles while the perk is equipped.
It's the SatNav of looping. You never have to learn the route through a tile, because the Yellow path always tells you where to go.
Made my suggestion to give it a 20s cooldown after a vault/throwing a pallet numerous times, not to nerf it, but to make it actually useful for learning map tiles.
If you ask me, i absolutely agree.
It is however a dangerous opinion to have on the forums. Therefore i try to just point out the facts.
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@ratcoffee said:
There are two main reasons
Some people run it so they can know which pallets are still available and haven't been thrown by their teammates.
Other people run it because they are bad at running the killer and they need a big yellow "run here next" sign.
You can usually tell the difference because the second type will sometimes just beeline to a random z wall and then panic
There is a third reason.
Some people use it to actually learn maps.
Its a minority, but they do exist.
To that i have to say: the tutorial should have a "check out the map"- function where new players can learn map layout and main buildings. This job should not be locked behind a non-base game character / perk.
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3600141#Comment_3600141
Well, yea, actually you are probably right.
Kind of makes me miss Sluzzy a bit... only a bit.
Dont speak of him... You might reanitmate an old evil.
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@Avo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3600252#Comment_3600252
How can WoO can be a problem? Just for able seeing the pallets and windows doesn't make you a loop god. DH? Activates twice in a game, gamble to use sometimes because of the delay. SB? Requires skill to play for to get value of it, it's not like that disgusting uncounterable perk called Ultimate Weapon. I guess you don't see the current situation of the game. This game is killer-sided, only thing can destroy killers is a cordinated sweaty SWF. Solo-Q is literally dumping ground, no-one gives a fly about it. The perks you told me are literally domitaning solo-q, why? Because of the gamble mmr and the teammates along with it, you can't do anything. You can't compare them
Victim behaviour is strong in this post. Please be more reasonable.
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@Avo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3600263#Comment_3600263
You forgot the fact that literally every map is a deadzone because of those whining streamers
"whining streamers" are developers now? Thats new to me.
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Please dont witch-hunt me...
- To learn maps
- To know where pallets are and in what state (dropped or not) they are
- To automatize survivor - chase gameplay
These are the 3 reasons of why survivors use windows of opportunity.
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@atlasworldcarrier said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3600103#Comment_3600103
So you admit that this game has gen rushing issues and that survivors need a nerf?
Did I say that?
I could jump on your band wagon and say that Blight and Nurse need nerfs.
It's not as easy as that. There is more to the problem than 90 seconds on gens. It's about map size and killers power.
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@atlasworldcarrier said:
Wow I didn't expect a killer like chucky to have trouble with gens. How could that be?
Almost every killer has problems with gens soooooo...
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3599833#Comment_3599833
At least the long side of most filler loops usually have a form that lets you curve or use the shred on, I think? I remember Ormond being a bit rough for Demo, I stopped playing Billy when they butchered him, I only used to play without addons back then, but overheat was just too much...
Unless you can slide off of the tiles the same demo does, does Billy still glide along some car loops?
I mean curving without engravings is generally speaking rather tough isn't it? I have never seen a Billy without them try to curve so I though it was basically a given these days to at least run Doom.
I mean fair, you cannot curve that GoJ tile, or most of the tiles because the bush collision is so terrible... But because the pallet is so close I don't really thing your odds are that good to get a hit there with Pig either, you because you should be somewhat consistantly able to switch between pallet and window car, once she takes pallet control you can just go to the other tile and the other way around, so in my mind I don't think that tile is particularly good for pig either?
I really need video proof right now.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3599830#Comment_3599830
I don't think the changes I proposed are really drastic, but whatever.
How is C tier good? C tier ist somewhat average, and I would even argue that Wraith is probably a better Killer than Pig, because of his map traversal and the lunge around tiles. But then again I think Wraith is way better than people give him credit for.
Secondary objectives are great on paper, but then again they tend do not really be different than generators... You do the same skillchecks you do on gens and are basically more vulnerable while doing them because you might just get your head popped if something goes bad, but it is not really interactive, gens are the most boring thing to do on survivor side and chase interaction is basically the most fun part, when I talk about gameplay I mean actually doing something that is fun and interactive, if the trap removal had a variety of interesting mini games then maybe we can consider that, but otherwise it is the same boring stuff we have been doing since forever... Skill checks on generators...
I mean when you think about comp the reason for that is because of how efficient the survivors are and that the game would simply be over if the killer played differently, is that good? Not really, but it is how it is... However those guys are really competetive and have so many hours and honed their skills in 1v1 and scrims, they still care about actually playing I would say, because they don't get paid enough to live off of it, so it is not really a job either. When you look at the 1v1 comp survivors, those guys are basically only in for the chase and not for the macro of the match, so I would not really go in that direction with your point... Because in the end the interaction is forced that way because of how efficient survivors can be and that there is not really a way to win and play nice with that good players.
Great the most fun part is the chase, so why exactly is it a bad thing to give players the option to play a killer in either a stealth or chase way? Same with Wraith you can play hit and run or you can play chase... I think both should be viable and I don't think by adding more chase power you will necessarily destroy the other half of her kit...
Yeah so? I mean for a stealth killer having such a loud notification that does not really look stealthy to me, the other stealth killers have more subtle hints... Yeah it is quite nice for the whole boop the snoot thing, but like I said it contradicts the stealth theme... You can defend it with the lore all you want, but if you bend the gameplay because of the lore you will need to admit that it does not necessarily fit in with the theme of the gameplay.
I definitely would say she is the worst stealth killer by far... Myers can basically have a 6m heartbeat in t2 which is so small it is neglectable, it gives the survivors no reaction time at all to reach a tile before he whips around the corner and hits you, sure Pig is smaller in her stealth mode but also way slower and she cannot attack out of it without giving a warning, the sound of the blade unsheathing or the roar before her dash. If you are in a open map without line of sight blockers you will have a tougher time to sneak up with Myers for sure, but then again even while crouched she would be spotted from survivors from a distance... If you get blood lodge and try to play stealth you will have a miserable time no matter which one of the two, but on other maps with line of sight blockers I think Myers has the better stealth.
I have never considered Dredge to be a stealth killer, just because of how loud he is during nightfall... But sure, if you count him in he would be last, however he plays mostly around the teleport during nightfall and not so much with sneaking up to people... So I would find that debateable... Skull Merchant apparently works really well as a stealth killer, because unlike the others she has no sound cue whatsoever if she is close, not Myers or Wraith breathing, no Ghostface shroud sounds and so on... Apparently she works really well for gen grab builds, if we believe Hens at least, I don't know, let's just say she does not suffer from those minor sound cues but her stealth is unreliable and also a little bit weird considering she is supposed to be area control and not really stealth?
You only ever use those two addons and tell me the dash is alright? xD I find it really horrible without last will and maybe even Workshop grease... Half of the effects should be base kit just so the dash is not as bad anymore.
Yeah agreed, her stealth is horrible and there should be some things that need to get added...
I would say faster crouch speed, combat straps basekit and some changes to her dash either in speed or duration or whatever...
Yes, I only use these two addons. Yes, the ambush works fine. I dont know what's so funny about me performing really well without the addons. I played enough to perform well without the grease or last will. John's file and combat straps are even way better in my opinion, due to it punishing survivors for running away.
Myers is really bad in terms of stealth. It's only made better with addons and monitor. On top of that, he is a huge killer with a big WHITE mask. You can see him coming from everywhere.
Dredge becomes undetectable during nightfall. He's technically a stealth killer.
Skull merchant is just awful. Let's put it that way.
I "defend" the lore, because she's licensed. BHVR needs to pay money to lions gate to use her character. If she doesn't fit their ideas, they can't do it. Therefore I'm certain, that she will remain trap focused.
Wraith hit and run is only good for public games and uncoordinated survivors. Chase wraith is only viable against weaker survivors or with addons.
Please don't use YouTubers to back up your arguments. I can't take most of them seriously. I want however to take you seriously.
If adding something to her chase is not destroying her balance with the slowdown provided with the reverse bear trap, I'm fine with it. I'm however more for a pallet break on the ambush to punish pre dropping. I'm also all for your idea of adding little mini games to Amanda's jigsaw boxes. Maybe similar to how they added a new game for skull merchant. It would definitely mix things up.
Gameplay in terms of morphology describes everything you DO in a video game. It's not related to it being interactive in a multiplayer situation.
I'm also for playing more interactive. I think I made that clear. But I'm afraid, that dbd is not balanced around much interaction. You dont have to be a tournament survivor to bomb rush gens and get out in 5 minutes. You also don't have to be a tournament killer to tunnel someone out at 5 gens with nurse. Everyone can do that with a 4man swf or good experience on Nurse.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3600074#Comment_3600074
I'm glad you liked it!
I like Freddy. I play him every now and then. The rework was problematic and the nerfs only uncovered the truth about that. Original Freddy was very unique. I like that. That's why I defend Pig's traps and Sadako original version.
Right now, Freddy is in a really sad state. I would love to see him improve.
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@skylustv said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3598816#Comment_3598816
Traps search should always be 2/2/4/4 or 3/3/4/2 or 4/4/2/2, i'm saying that with this survivors could never remove in the first try, but keeping the total search as 12
Im fine with that. Some of the combinations are really problematic. Especially the 1-3-4-4 one. Not that it is bad for the pig, but because it is extremely deadly for the survivors.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3599576#Comment_3599576
My original idea was this one:
Power: Dream Demon
Pull survivors into the Dream World
-Survivors who are awake do not see The Nightmare.
-Once targeted by The Nightmare’s power, survivors enter the Dream Transition for 7 seconds.
-During the Dream Transition Survivors can see The Nightmare intermittently and they suffer from the Incapacitated status effect.
-When the Dream Transition Lapse, the Survivor is pulled into the Dream World.
Once in the Dream World:
-Survivor’s auras are revealed to The Nightmare when they are outside of his terror radius.
-Survivors suffer an action speed penalty of 40%.
-To exit the Dream World, Survivors can find non-sleeping Survivors to perform a wake up action.
-Failed Skill Checks can also wake up.
-Hooked Survivors wake up.
Special Ability: Dream Projection
-Teleport to a Generator in view. Releasing the button early will cancel the action.
-Survivors cannot interact with the targeted Generator.
“You have nothing to worry about. This won’t hurt one… little… bit.” -Freddy Krueger
Its essentially a little mix between pre-rework and post-rework, with a few improvements, but it could be tweaked further.
Sounds nice!
Id be down for that.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3599810#Comment_3599810
Fair, but then again the day billys collision is fixed is probably the day hell freezes over.
True.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3599790#Comment_3599790
I would say the Pig is in the bottom 30% of killers when you rate them by strenght. She is pretty weak. How would you rate her then if you think she is good?
Why would I create my own dash based killer when all I want is a better Dash on Pig? How does this make any sense?
Doesn't change my point that it is bad game design to have something be the main focus that does not really involve gameplay in that sense.
For me that only implies that you think this would be important enough for them to waste their time on this, which I would find rather odd...
She is probably the worst stealth killer in the game, and even her "ambush" attacks don't really come as a surprise considering that you roar before the dash and make a sond when you stand up... So I'm sure we could do some polish there, to improve her stealth. Slowdown is not really a playstyle... So I guess we can argue on the stealth part, she does not really work properly as a stealth killer because moving in her stealth is way too slow and you not necessarily get an easy first hit like the other stealth killers do.
I think you should suggest your own dash - based killer because you clearly want to change her in a drastic way. Going away from her trap based gameplay and to a more chase oriented killer.
To this i will say: She will not change in her core design. Her core design are the traps. DBD is still a celebration of horror. SAW is a big part of that. What makes SAW, SAW? The traps.
Pig in my opinion is mid c - tier. A good killer. Perfectly fine. Not awful, not great. Probably around Doctor. Better than Wraith. Shes alright. This, i say out of experience in the game and the over 2000 hours i have on her only. I have my reasoning and am not biased. This conslusion comes from discussions i had with others and is based on many aspects regarding multible killers kits.
What makes you so know what is objectively good or bad game design? I dont think shes designed badly at all. Also, where does she not involve gameplay? She even enables gameplay, other killers have not. A secondary objective. Survivors have to interact with jigsaw boxes during the trail. Thats gameplay. What you mean is direct killer survivor interaction. Sorry to break it to you, but in the "highest level" matches, the killer has almost no interaction with all 4 survivors at all. DBD isnt about interaction between survivor and killer. Its about the survivors finishing the gens as fast as possible to make them not having to interact with the killer too much.
This is the reality. A sad reality. For me the best part about DBD is the chase. Seeing the games direction in balance makes me a bit sad. More gen speed, more tunneling and less interaction. But thats how it is until it gets addressed accordingly.
You havent seen the saw movies at all.... She roars before attacks. Thats also adapted from the movies. If thats bad concerning gameplay is debatable. Im all for putting the sound effect on the attack itself and not on the charge up, despite the loss of memes.
I would not say, that shes the worst stealth killer in dbd. Dredge in nightfall, Myers and Skull merchant are worse in that regard in my opinion.
Of course her stealth is subpar. THATS WHY I USE COMBAT STRAPS AND JOHNS MEDICAL FILE ALL THE TIME AND SUPPORT FASTER CROUCHING SPEED AND STEALTH MOVEMENT SPEED ALL THE TIME.
Sorry, i hate to repeat myself again and again.
Her stealth should get buffed.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3599787#Comment_3599787
Sure but avoiding to collide with things is part of the skill cap to those killers in that sense, sure there are ridiculous twigs you can get stuck on for example on eyrie or on Yamaoka, but as far as I know those also make you stuck on lunge attacks...
But it is not possible to moonwalk / hug tech with them due to the collision.
I hope they will finally fix the problems with collision, Billy has. But i dont think its gonna happen realistically.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3599752#Comment_3599752
A statement given without evidence/arguments or prove can be disregarded without such, it is pretty simple.
If the dash works so well I wonder why we never see anybody play Pig in tournaments? It is very situational and works on not too man tiles therefore not being a reliable tool rendering Pig mostly an m1 killer and typically m1 killers cannot perform anywhere near decent in tournaments.
Wraiths lunge did not get nerfed, only the duration of his post uncloak speed boast did get decreased by 0.25 seconds I think it was? That however did not in any way affect the duration or distance of his lunge, it just made it so you needed to start the lunge slightly faster.
The uncloaking with Wraith to use his speed boost and increased lunge around tiles works somewhat similar to pigs dash, you take pallet controll and then start the process, so yeah those two might be somewhat similar, like I said before.
Hillbilly is not extremely slow, he is like 92% or so? Sure a lot slower, but not extremely slow. The overheat as it currently is barely effects him unless you want to go for longer sprints, his steering in the first 0.75 seconds or what it is is actually quite high, otherwise with certain addons his map traversal becomes quite good, however he has engravings and lopro which make it possible to curve or get hits through pallets, which is the reason why I think his chase is way stronger than pigs dash, sure his curving does not work around tiles of all sizes and what not, but I would say it is definitely usable at more tiles than Pigs dash. Besides that it insta downs and can go through pallets, with lopro. (I think we are taking all addons into account considering how terrible pigs dash is without at least increased dash speed + combat straps or the addon that makes the dash charge faster.
Demos shred has a longer range than Pigs dash, it travels more than double the speed at 480% movementspeed and it has a charge up of only 0.65 seconds min. or around 1 second max for a max range shred, pig takes longer than that to even crouch, besides that he can kind of slides around some corner, for example the cars on bedham, sure his steering is limited, but he has quite a big hitbox, big range, zoning potential, basically no downside for the zoning and can easily cancle it, it is viable at man loops and can render even safer tiles like jungle gyms, shack or stronger pallet loops way less strong. His shred is great and many people seem to underestimated how good it actually is.
Onis power is probably the strongest in the entire game, high mobility, up to 180° flicks, insta down and what not, regulated only by time limitation, I have no clue why you would bring him up here.
Blights limited steering does not really hinder him because of the high speed and amount of bounces, bump logic gives you the possibility to hit someone around basically every tile in the game, there is a reason it is argued whether he or nurse is the strongest killer in the game, once again no clue why you would bring him up.
You could argue that wesker brings quite some game delay with the reverse bear traps, sure probably not even close to as much as Pig, but then again he is not limited in the amounts he can apply his game delay unlike pig, but the survivors have limited amounts of sprays.
Pig would be like around B tier at best with the changes to the crouching or standing dash, there is no way it would be overtuned... Especially if we reduce how effective the bear traps are... Besides that the changes would be so minimal it is hardly believable to talk about her kit being overloaded.
That's basically guessing, it is not like behaviour states that at any point, if you look at how every other killer with build in slowdown works they all have a power to get hits in chase besides that. Pig is basically the only one where most of the addons only revolve around the slowdown part however, besides that when playing a video game the main focus is and has always been the gameplay, you doing stuff, we seem to disagree at that part, but I truely think that what sets killers apart is how you play them, the main focus should be on the different gameplay, and the traps just don't add anything relevant to them in the way chase powers do.
I really could not care less about her original design, I want her to be a fun character to play as and against, in the best outcome she would be strong/above average with a fairly high skill ceiling that somewhat gets mirrored in how hard she is to play from a mechanical standpoint. And I basically want this as a general norm for killers, killer is hard to play, therefore he should be strong. The aspect of having something thematic in the game always tends to fade away when the gameplay does not really live up to it, I have seen some forum posts and people complaining about pig in the sense of her being so weak compared to other killers and them not seeing a reason to buy or play her, which is kind of sad, considering how fun her dash is to use and I always hoped they would make it stronger and focus less on the boring aspects of her kit like the beartraps, sure head pops can be fun, but it gets old after some time. When Chucky released I was somewhat disappointed because his power is what I basically hoped for Pig to be, not that long in range and all, but just a stronger ability while still being the same concept basically.
I don't really think that people still get attracted by her these days, she has been in the game for ages, but unless we can find some numbers of purchases for the chapters we can only guess. I really don't think making her dash longer in crouch and giving it to her while standings makes her that much more complicated, it is the same ability, all you need to learn about it is that it is more powerfull when you crouch, it really does not make her more complicated.
Sure but they tend to go the shortest possible way, just because you sometimes cannot afford to go the long way or because most maps are shaped in a way that doe not really offer many options to traverse.
Well at least we can agree on nerfing those things.
If you dont care about the Pig and what she resembles, maybe consider creating your own dash - based killer?
She is the SAW - killer. She will stay the SAW - killer. Like it or not. The breatraps, boring or not, are the main focus of her power and should remain that way.
I asked a Mod. Does that not implay that i assume what the devs think about the Pig?
Again: shes a stealth - slowdown killer. Not a chase oriented - mechanical killer. She presents a certain playstyle and thats fine. We need variety.
To those in your posts: The pig is not weak. Not by a long shot. Shes a good killer. Just not a strong chaser.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3599760#Comment_3599760
Aaahhh ok now I see, I read the last few killers as without power, which is why I was only taking into Account ghostface without shroud and Myers in T2 basically. Yeah sure both are true, but at their core they are not that different from basic m1 killers, the lunge increase is really not that much, I think only like 10% or so? Maybe less? not entirely sure.
I'm not completely sure that there are tiles where Billy cannot get a hit but Pig can, both excell at rather short loops, maybe medium sized, most loops offer a way for him to use the chainsaw, right now I can only think of some loops on Eyrie where he might not be able to get a hit but she can, however I cannot think of many more, so please enlighten me.
I think Wraiths lunge might be shorter but faster, I'm not entirely sure on that and his steering is basically something you need to care about as the player. Pig can still get stuck on some things similar to Wraith it just does not end her dash, it will probably still not end up in a hit.
Again, the difference is the collision. Both Billy and Wraith end their attacks immediately if they collide with any hitbox. The Pig does not. This enables the moondash. The getting stuck is not what i meant. Sure, the Pig can get stuck. But we are not talking about misplays now, are we? She can also hit invisible ambush hitboxes, ending her ambush immediately. But that another story.
Due to the collsion missing, the pig can curve and moonwalk around tiles much like a blight or Chucky. This is something a Billy can only dream at. Btw... I happen to know a good Hillbilly/ Curvebilly main.... I summon you @Xernoton for your Hillbilly insight and knowledge about the difference between the ambush and the chainsaw sprint!!!
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@Azulra said:
If they revert the changes with her condemn being global then that's gonna be the worst change ever for her imo. She has no real chase power so she needs a good slowdown power to compensate for that and her global condemn is what made that happen. The main reason a lot of survivors complained about her being too oppressive/strong is because they literally refuse to spend a few seconds to interact with her TVs either because they're just simply too lazy to even bother learning a killer's counter or they're not wanting to get 2 stacks of condemn from getting hit with a tape which isn't even a problem since the tapes can remove up to 2.75 stacks when you put them into a TV.
I cannot express how frustrating it is for me to be playing against an Onryo and it's not even the killer that is the problem, but rather my teammates. I'll be on a generator and see that my teammates are about to be fully condemned while I'm chilling at like 0.75 stack(s) because I'm using her counter-play of holding onto a tape and efficiently managing my condemn meter like survivors should be when playing against her.
The only reason survivors never complained about her before is due to the facts that she's easy to loop and you'd almost never get hit with her condemn unless she was doing the Slugdako playstyle of slugging survivors to spread condemn. That's why people are complaining now because she's not a total pushover like she was before her rework.
Disagree.
Global condemned ruined a lot of what was unique about her. Soloq will always be an uncoordinated mess. The current Sadako thrives from this. Why punish soloq more than swf?
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3599720#Comment_3599720
Ok so first things first, m1 killers don't count, because that's not a chase power like... What is even the point to mention them xD Technically Myers power is to basically have no heartbeat and get the hit before the survivor can react to that, but when you are already in chase you have nothing but the shorter vault.
I think Demogorgons and Hillbillys chase abilities are far better than Pigs dash, not even close. Sure around round loops Demos dash cannot be used as easily but still works fairly well to get a fast pallet drop.
With Wraith it is rather hard to tell, it feels like the increased lunge is almost comparable to pigs dash without addons, similarly you can use it around most shorter loops and even some medium sized ones... But yes they are somewhat comparable.
Disagree.
First: of course the Clown has a better chase than pig. BY FAR.
Second: Myers also has a lunge. That combined with the faster vault make him more than just a normal m1 killer. He can close distances faster. Ghostface can theoretically crouc mid loop to get cheeky double back hits. Demogorgons power cant be used at round loops. Fact. The Pigs ambush can. Facts. Does that mean that the Demogorgons shred is weaker than the Pigs ambush? Never said that. Fact.
I said that the Pig can get hits at tiles other killers cant get hits that reliably. Therefore i mentioned Demo and Billy. Both have better chase abilities than the pig. They are better in most situations. But not in some. In these situations, the ambush outperformes both.
Wraith hant steer the uncloak ambush as good as pig. The duration of the ambush of pig is also longer. Whats the biggest difference? Similar to Chucky, the Pig doesnt collide with objects during ambush. The Wraith does. Sure they are similar in some aspects, but definitely different in execution.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3599568#Comment_3599568
If you play Knight and Artist or Skull Merchant in a way that you just push survivors off a tile and hope they don't have a connect tile to go to then yes, but I never said this part of a killers kit is not problematic, you should not be able to just leave the tile and basically be safe, I would prefer it if counterplay worked a little bit different than that. Other than that feel free to name other killers that struggle in that sense, because most killers don't really need to zone survivors in that sense, they can just get a hit at that tile.
Great so we agree that the dash should be stronger, so why not have a longer dash during crouch and a standard dash from standing? What is the problem with that again?
I said. Im all for buffing the ambush in charge time, crouch time, speed and distance. Im against a dash out of Amanda being crouched. Period.
Other killers that struggle with connected tiles... This is gonna be fun.
- Wraith
- Hillbilly
- Myers
- Doctor
- Bubba
- Freddy
- Ghostface
- Pyramid head
- Nemesis
- Sadako
- Dredge
Maybe more.
Interconnected tiles are a problem. Not just for pig. Killers with long charge ups have similar problems. Not just Pig. Especially Wraith and Dredge face similar problems.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3598832#Comment_3598832
Ok my man so here you state they never interact with their test subjects directly, even Amanda/the pig not...
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3599567#Comment_3599567
Then here you tell me it is fine, can you for once decide? It is a difference between rigging the thing and interacting with people... If you say it is allowed to interact with, which is apparently not a thing in the movies then how exactly would it be an issue to have a dash that is not from crouching? Your argument was basically they only attacked from an unseen angle, however when you dash at someone at a loop you already know the killer is there, so this is already not the same, which is fine because it is a game and not the movie. But then you cannot bring this up for the standing dash, because if you already know the pig is there, and you can probably even somewhat tell where exactly then why is it that much a problem when she does the dash while standing?
No I don't necessarily mean that is the only way to get the head pops or interrupt them, but it is one possible way of doing it, while not directly interacting with them, I just tried to go along your point there of no interaction between Amanda and the survivor during the trial. If you just chase them normally and hook them again, maybe even bringing them further away from the boxes they did not search yet the value of interrupting them is not necessarily so high.
That completely depends on where and how the boxes spawn, the issue is depending on map you cannot really go out of your way to do the boxes in a different order just so to not be predictable, because it would waste so much time you might die from the beartraps... So it is not necessarily on them.
Yeah she has a bad chase power indeed, which is exactly why I would want to make the dash more usefull and nerf the traps if needed, because the interactive and fun part of playing killer, the chase, should be the main focus.
I don't need footage of how the moon dash looks like, it is reall not hard to pull off from a mechanical standpoint, getting a hit with it is however, especially if the survivor has line of side, and if the survivor is patient and knows what they are doing then you will sure as hell not get an easy hit on them just because your dash goes in the other direction.
The point is if the survivor plays the most effective way he will just deny you the usage of your power, which once again goes to show that her chase is awfull. He basically needs to allow you the chance of getting a hit on him for you to be able to do something, and that is once again terrible design.
You seem a little passive aggressive towards me. Did i give you any reason? You corrected my morphology earlier. Thats not nice my friend. I dont do that if i want to have a logical argument with somebody.
And again, you portray perfectly why nobody in this community believes anything without video proof thrown at their face.
The moondash works, it throws off a ton of survivors. I had some "tournament" 1v1 survivors play against me on tiles. They knew it was coming. I hit them regardless. Why? I switch up my game. I mindgame. Sometimes i go for a double, sometimes for a triple. I sadly cant show you this. So you wont believe me. Guess we have to disagree because i cant offer you video proof. SORRY.
Amanda interacted with test subjects. She however never rigged the game directly in front of them. That is a difference from the movies. You are correct there. She rigged them without the subject knowing of her existance. She, however, did interqact with test subject during their trail, changing it up in the process. The Amanda in DBD is the Amanda at the end of SAW 3. This is an Amanda that has lost her trust into the teachings of jigsaw and just wants to torture people that she sees fit. Thats means people that have sinned. She cares for John but is definitely a killer. Therefore, in DBD, she punishes survivors while using Johns teachings and killing them using his tools of reawakening as tools of death. Therefore her adaption in DBD is 100% faithful.
Now to the ambush out of stealth part.
How can you say that this would be fine from a gameplay standpoint? What killer do we have with a dash - like power?
- Wraith
- Hillbilly
- Pig
- Demo
- Oni
- Blight
- Wesker
- Chucky
Now think about all of them.
Finished? Good. Let me clarify.
- Wraith has to be cloaked to use his power, therefore having to uncloak before using his dash (which got nerfed because it was deemed too opressive).
- Hillbilly has to charge his chainsaw, making him extremely slow in the process. On top of that, he has to deal with an overheat mechanic. The sprint is also very limited in steering.
- Demo also has to charge up his power making a loud noice in the process. The shred, similar to Billy, is also very limited in steering.
- Oni has to collect his power before being even able to use it. Making him a pure m1 killer before hitting a survivor. The power also has a duration, that is being reduced for each hit.
- Blight has 5 rushes. The first one is not able to injure people. All of the rushes are limited in steering.
- Wesker has two bounds that can be performed one after another. They have a sound clue and are also limited in steering.
- Finally we have Chucky, who has one dash. It is locked behind a power that has to recharge for multible seconds after use of one dash but has a lot of steering.
What are their difference to the pig? None of them have a power that delays survivors for several minutes during a trial. Some killers even lose time if they want to use their whole kit ( Demogorgon setting up portals). Some of these powers are already very restricted in comparison to the Pigs ambush in terms of steering. The pig on the other hand is held back by the crouch -> charge -> attack proceedure. Giving the pig amazing chase potential outside of stealth/crouch without any drawbacks is making her kit not only overloaded but also overtuned in terms of strenght.
So lets focus more on her chase and less on her traps, right???
The Pig is designed to be a stealth - slowdown killer. The traps are the main focus of the SAW - franchise, therefore being the main part of Amandas power in DBD.
I want her chase to be buffed, dont get me wrong. However, i want her to be better while staying true to her original design.
Another point i like to add is the part that some of the suggestion would massivly overload her kit. I dont know what BHVR things about Amanda in terms of accessibility. They mentioned Trapper being a killer they want to keep as simple as possible to make him more accessible for newer players. The Nurse on the other hand is harder to learn for newer players. I feel like the pig is supposed to be simpler for newer players.
She already has a loaded kit. Stealth, Traps and Ambush. Thats a lot, even if you dont feel like it is. Adding more mechanics and abilities, maybe even cooldowns to her, might not be in the direction, BHVR wants her to be. Maybe a mod @Rizzo could clarify how compex she is supposed to be for newer players. And i specificly speak of newer players because shes licensed and brings in people liking the SAW movies. Therefore making her the first killer for a specific audience.
Last but not least: the traps. Survivors can definitely use different directions. Even with a 4 search trap. They can NOT however heal up, safe a teammate off hook, get chased away, crouch in a corner, go for a flashy safe, open a chest, bless or destroy a totem, do a glyph, finish or work on a generator, walk to preserve sprint burst or other chenanigans. With addons, i agree. When used, survivors are on time and can oly walk in one direction straight. Im all for nerfing the gear addons, the jigsaw sketch or the tempered timer. I dont mind them at all.
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3598442#Comment_3598442
(Maybe) the roar on the ambush not the charge up.
No, I want to spam my oinks...
I know. Thats why i pointed out the MAYBE. It be an obvious nerf to her mem potential.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3599550#Comment_3599550
I don't really know which killer that has an even decent chase power is supposed to be outclassed by Pig in the sense that there are loops she can get a hit around but he cannot... But feel free to tell me, maybe Freddy? But is chase is terrible anyway, and I would say Clowns chase is way better than pigs.
Wraith, Demogorgon, Hillbilly and the obvious m1 oriented killer like Plague without power, Ghostface, Myers and Oni without power.
I feel correct about this due to my experience and knowledge about this character and the tile design of dbd.
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P100 gives something? I got nothing for my pig so far.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3598733#Comment_3598733
Easy task for us.
Im honestly interested in your ideas. Make a post in feedback and suggestions?
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I have 3500 hours in dbd at the moment. 2k hours + are on pig alone. 1.5k hours are on survivor and and other killers. I think I'm fine.
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Got it seconds try. Not that hard because the killer is very strong. Don't play the perks. Play the killer.
The hardest for me was bubba. Pure rage...
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3599385#Comment_3599385
Unless there are connected tiles, which is more often than not the case, if you pre drop and position yourself properly there is very little you can do to still get the hit, if you sit right next to the pallet being able to be forced to vault it constantly sure you can something, but good survivors tend to not be in that situstion
Again, I would like this part of her kit getting buffed. You are correct if there are interconnected tiles, the pig struggles. But don't other killers struggle there as well?
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3599352#Comment_3599352
So they never interact with the test subject directly during the trial is lore accurate, but basically chasing them with the head trap on is only rigging the trial? If that's not directly interacting then what exactly is???
Sure the walls also effect other killers but it is still a problem for pig in the sense that it limits cool stuff you can do on her, I did not say anything more than that.
Isn't the moon dash simply going backwards a wall by using left or right? Yeah sure, not really too hard and if the survivors know what they are doing and watching you closely or just leave the loop even that won't help you much.
I like how you contradict yourself within two sentences "you never", "only if"... If you use an absolute there are no exceptions, you might wanna use basically or almost or what not... The issue is that it is possible to happen but should, what was exactly my point, now some of the big maps have decreased in size but if you think about it if you bring yourself to a big map and then also use the addons you have quite a big chance to get a head pop without doing anything for it. As said before it is not the majority of cases, but it should not be like that to begin with, besides basically everyone playing her never using the dash and only bringing the head pop addons, because it works so well.
Your phrasing is a bit off on that last part... You don't use the traps correctly, it is impossible to use them incorrectly unless you don't use them at all, all you can do is put them on, however what you can do is play around them, which is not only super annoying to go against but can also leave the survivor with 0 counterplay, if the killer sits behind them crouched the timer won't stop, but they also cannot do the trap minigame because you will hit them otherwise, great gameplay indeed.
The dash is mediocre anti loop, it gets a bit better with the addons but basically still fully countered if the survivor just leaves the loop, and since most maps have a lot of connected tiles you cannot even bluff the roar and chase normally to get them into a dead zone.
You still dont get it.
Only Amanda and Hoffmann rigged their trials. Therefore Amanda is fine how she is to interact with survivors. If the killer where John, it would not make sense fie him to interact with survivors during the test. It happens often in the movies, that the jigsaw killer is directly present during a game, but only to see if the rules are followed. They do interact with the test subjects. An example would be John shocking Gordon and Adam in saw 1. But rigging is limited to Amanda and Hoffmann. Or course they can interact with survivors.
Now to the traps. Did I not say that I would nerf the traps? Making a survivor unable to die while searching the box is a huge nerf to the pigs head pop potential. I'm all for nerfing the problematic addons as well. I dont use them. I get my head pops without them. Why? Because I understand the Rng and how to play around it.
Now to the next part. You say that playing around the traps means that you chase them crouched to get easy head pops correct?
Wrong, this is immensely time innefficient. I already stated how I play around traps above. I memorize where I hook survivors, then predict their route and count the time they needed already. Then I make a guess where they are and what is the final box they will check. Then I push them off. Is there no counterplay at this point anymore? Yes. The survivor lost. But let me ask you something. If their pathing is this easy to predict and I know how much searches they need (something that the survivors can know as well by paying attention), haven't they played badly? They already made their misplay. They made themselves too predictable. I had plenty of survivors that changed up their pathing to confuse me. Another thing a survivor can do is (and this sounds dumb) be good in chase. The pigs chase is very bad. She's an m1 killer with a situational chasing power. I've had plenty of teams that did 2,3 and rarely (map depended) even 4 gens before I got my first down. Playing around traps at this point becomes extremely hard to pull off if not impossible.
To the ambush. I think I can't convince you of how good the moondash is without video material. Sadly I can't offer you that. The Pigs model, during this move, doesn't change direction. It still looks like you go in the original direction. Positioning is key here. You need to know the max distance of the ambush and the speed difference between you and the survivor. If you position yourself and execute the moondash correctly, you will get the hit 90% of the time if the loop allows it. I can assure you, that loopslike the car park at garden of joy, the car loops on Haddonfield and Badham and even 4 lane walls can be outplayed with this move. I have very consistent results using it. All under assumption, that the survivor doesn't just pre drop the pallet. Then I'm an m1 killer.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3599385#Comment_3599385
Unless there are connected tiles, which is more often than not the case, if you pre drop and position yourself properly there is very little you can do to still get the hit, if you sit right next to the pallet being able to be forced to vault it constantly sure you can something, but good survivors tend to not be in that situstion
That's why the ambush isn't good. If it where able to be used in every loop, the pig would be a very good chase killer. But then you need to balance the slowdown. The traps are the main part of her power. Therefore she's weaker in chase and is supposed to be more stealthy to get hits.
I'm not saying that the ambush is this impressive chasing tool that only some are able to use. It's a power that certainly has its skill cieling, but is very situational. In the situations it can be used though, it can outshine even other more chase oriented killers.
The Pig is most of the time an m1 killer.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3599376#Comment_3599376
I mean only if they don't just leave the loop, because it is the most basic easiest thing to do against pigs ambush... That's somewhat similar to Billy, sure he can curve you, but only if you let him and don't just predropp/run towards the next tile.
Thas why i use johns medical file and combat straps every game. If they leave, they give me a free hit due to em uncrouching this fast. I force them to play my game. I weaponized the running away.
Pig still cant do anything against pre dropping. Thats why many players suggest that she should be able to break pallets with the ambush. Im not against that.
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@jonifire said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3599364#Comment_3599364
I don‘t want to buff huntress lullaby, I only want it to interact with boxes.
For the ability in my opinion it is almost everytime not worth to sneak on to survivors and then ambush. And in most loops just stay on one side of the pallet and if they need they can valt back on the other side.
No. It is always the best to stealth up to survivors, stand up and hit them for stbfl stacks. Your usage of the ambush relys on the survivor dropping the pallet. Most better survivors will either pre drop the pallet or just simply run away when you as the pig start crouching. This is the problematic part i hope they will adress in the upcoming changes. A survivor can simply run away if you start crouching and you will statisticly never hit them because the ambush isnt long enough, For that reason, im always running john medical file and combat straps. This will punish survivors running away because you can uncrouch very fast and hit them while they are in the open.
Pig is one of the best users of stbfl. It has amazing synergy with her whole slowdown mechanic and helps out in chase drastically. She can also preserve stacks using the ambush. The pig is mostly an m1 killer. the ambush is a secondary ability that has to be used carefully and thoughtful. You cant just mindlessly crouch and hope that it will give you value at most tiles. You will be dissapointed if you anticipate that happening. Its considered one of the worst chasing powers for a reason. It can be situationally strong, but those situations are not that common.
Huntress lullaby synergy with the pig got removed because it punished new players exponentionally more than more experienced players. It was a healthy change and should not be reverted. New players should not suffer from something that more experienced players have no problem with at all.