pwncxkes
pwncxkes
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If that’s the case Unbreakable should be base kit
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@csandman1977 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1549173#Comment_1549173
DS, adrenaline, unbreakabill, soul guard. All of those are often run and none of them are consistent.
As far as swf, most if not all perks are balanced in solo q. SWF consistently breaks things. This perk will be one of those things. Rarely useful for solo but in a coordinated group, it will be awesome.
It is because when used correctly it can change the tides of a game. And because the power of the perk is entirely up to the survivor using the perk.
It could be great but I just don’t see it as a god tier perk at all.
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@JesterClown said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1549434#Comment_1549434
Bias is dripping off of you too mate. Soul guard is objectively strong because it weakens the power of any strong hex perk that will come out, soul guard is an objective counter to these strong perks. I dont believe any of these killer perks are busted. Head on is strong, its just overshadowed by other exhaustion perks. Theres a difference between being weak and being overshadowed.
Lol Imagine calling Head On strong 🤣🤣🤣
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@JesterClown said:
So I checked in on the forums today because of the rush of activity from a new killer. I checked the new perks, survivors got a meh, a situational and a a strong perk. The new killers perks sound extremely bonkers to me. I think the new hex perk is kind of overhyped as a hex build type thing and also soul guard exists. The other two perks seem kind of strong. And of course, with every new strong addition to killer or every new weak addition to survivors, people come to the forums to complain about both the weak survivor perks and strkng killer perks.
I wont deny that the killers perks are strong but to say that its “making the game unfair for survivors” or “killing survivors fun with every new update” thats just overreacting. Are killers not supposed to get strong perks anymore, according to dome posts, killers have no build variety, which is untrue but even if it is, arent these perks what you wanted to shake up the meta.
Its not like these perks are uncounterable, dragons grip looks like its made to counter gen tapping, and the other two perks are hexes, which have already existing counters in the form of soul guard and inner strength. Its not like these perks are uncounterable at all.
Getting upset that the survivor perks are meh is very funny to me because killers have gotten used to getting bad perks with every new killer ever since plague while survivors have had many arguably strong, yet overshadowed perks. I shouldnt be surprised that survivors are upset, but please, cant you just let killers finally have strong perks to work with.
Survivor have not been getting good perks at all, the past few chapter survivors have not gotten a single meta perk at all. Survivors still use the same thing over and over again, DH, BT, UB, DS, SB, etc. It’s the same 7 perks every game by survivor and killer. Let’s review the last few survivors.
Steve: Second wind is his only decent perk, but it still isn’t good.
Nancy: Inner strength is great
Yui: Nothing
Zarina: For the People is ok at best but not meta or good enough to be used a lot.
Cheryl: Soul Guard is good for the certain situations sometime you don’t even use it. Repressed Alliance is ok for gen jockeys.
Felix: Literally copies of old perks. Desperate Measures is ok and Botany is still better.
If there a good survivor perk from the last few chapters let me know.
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@joshuashep22 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1549155#Comment_1549155
can't wait to see your reaction when a swf squad uses the perk optimally, see you at rank 20
Why does a perk have to be good when in a SWF? Most of the player base plays in SoloQ. Why do I have to rely on what others are doing to get my perk working? We need consistent perks, but if a perk does something it should do it well. Thus making your “iT wIlL bE gOOd iN SWF, seE yOU iN rAnK 20” argument completely irrelevant. I will admit when it works it can work good, but that’s not all the time.
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Why would you want to use a perk that is only strong in SWF? Most of the time people play SoloQ, Desperate Measures isn’t gonna fit in the meta right now because of how niche and weak it is, it will probably be one of those perks that barely gets used unless in certain builds. Also don’t you want to have a perk that is consistent all game ?
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@Cancan71 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1549049#Comment_1549049
May I ask why? If you have a 32 charge medkit then Streetwise would give you 8 extra charges while Built to Last would give you 16 extra charges. It is objectively better for every item unless there is some technicality that I'm missing.
Unless you like giving the Streetwise effect to your teammates I don't see why you would choose it over Built to Last.
I don’t like 1 time use perks, UNLESS the effect it has is very impactful like Adrenaline. Streetwise can help the entire team, while built to last only has one use and it is only 50%. If it was 100% it would a little better.
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@Cancan71 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1549049#Comment_1549049
May I ask why? If you have a 32 charge medkit then Streetwise would give you 8 extra charges while Built to Last would give you 16 extra charges. It is objectively better for every item unless there is some technicality that I'm missing.
Unless you like giving the Streetwise effect to your teammates I don't see why you would choose it over Built to Last.
Because it’s a one use time perk, and you can use Streetwise to help your team. I usually prefer perks that would last me all game.
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@Science_Guy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1549049#Comment_1549049
Same.
The worst part is that the fact that we're getting comparable versions of perks which aren't being used seems to suggest they have no plans to actually rework and buff those perks. Instead they're just adding ripoffs that should have been folded into the existing perks to make them better.
It’s actually really sad, I thought since the killer has amazing perks, the survivor perks would be good as well. I was heavily dissatisfied. His best perk is desperate Measures and it isn’t even that good, I feel like the Devs are too scared to add half decent survivor perks, and I really be seeing people saw that Desperate Measures is bROKEN. Like really?
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I would actually use streetwise over Built to last imo
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the Animation when you are working on the sparks side is goofy af
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Nerfing Dead Hard isn’t necessary either. For example, if we made it a one time use the pick rate would fall ALOT because it doesn’t have a big of a impact. If a perk is a 1 time use it should be very impactful. Like Adrenaline, it really can change the tides of the game. If every exhaustion perks is just used once than they would just die out and barely be used. If you use the perk early than you just have a empty perk slot for the rest of the game.
Nerfing good perks isn’t healthy for the game. You can’t just blame the perk just because someone actually used it nicely, if it took no skill to use Dead Hard then it wouldn’t be a problem at all and this thread probably wouldn’t even exist. If it were no skill people would just be dead Harding into walls and corners and dead zones, which I do very often. 😂😭
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The place where you use Dead Hard is important. If you Dead Hard in a open space you have just played yourself, and most of the time that’s what happens because that’s when not good survivors use Dead Hard.
Not all the time the survivor is going to get to a pallet because of Dead Hard, so that isn’t a second chance for them.
Also it’s not always 3 times they get another chance because if you remember they have Dead Hard then use that info to your advantage. If they make it don’t swing, now that you have gotten rid of that persons Dead Hard just chase them normally. But if they continue looping you because they know how to loop leave him. Your wasting your time, go find someone else and apply pressure to the other 3 survivors. If you find that person again you know know that person has Dead Hard, and you can capitalize on that.
But in the end of the day Dead Hard can be effective in very certain instances, but when it works it works well.
The perks effectiveness is relied on the survivors surroundings, but if there isn’t anything then cool it’s a nice down, but if is isn’t then keep chasing a make decisions accordingly. It’s either they waste the Dead Hard or the chase keeps on going.
Most survivor perks are situational, perks like Iron Will, Dead Hard, Adrenaline, DS, Sprint Burst, Balanced Landing, Unbreakable, etc. Those perks I just listed are good perks, Why? because they excel in the things they are needed in. If a perk is good we shouldn’t just bash it to the ground, it’s just super useful in what it is supposed to do. Those perks are not useful in other areas but does really well in the important areas, that’s why it is used. For a good perk in survivor it needs to meet atleast 1 of the 4 requirements
1) Needs to help in chase
2) Needs to help for working on objectives
3) Helps you evade the killer/ being stealthy
4) Helps you stay alive
Not one survivor perk in the game meets all 4 of those requirements.
Thats why perks like Dead Hard are used because of its effectiveness in chase. It doesn’t help you be stealthy, it doesn’t help you get gens done.
Dead Hard isn’t the problem, it’s just the players play style to be in you face and trying live and outsmart you or outplay you.
Dead Hard is used by aggressive survivors that want to get chased that’s why most of them are experienced enough to know when to use Dead Hard, most of time good survivors will give you a good run with Dead hard. They are just using it to the maximum, The reward is wasting more time.
I kinda went a little off topic but you get the idea, maybe. But if you don’t then that’s awkward.
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@Opex said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1545719#Comment_1545719
Yes but if the killer is trapped he cant do anything. He just gets stunned for the rest of the game and the other 2 survivors can just work on gens and the killer is just being stuck in getting stunned.
That would be even worse if all 4 were use HO lmao
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@Opex said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1544668#Comment_1544668
Yes I think HO shouldnt be an exhaustion perk. But the problem is if you have 2 survivors and the killer is infront of a locker you can just keep stunning him for the entire game and trap him. xD
Maybe like a 10 second cooldown or something and no exhaustion.
But I mean that’s 2 less survivors working on gens I guess
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@Alphasoul05 said:
All Exhaustion perks are overpowered. Every Exhaustion perk removes the ability to punish a survivor out of position. It removes the ability to punish playing greedy. That isn't really balanced. But it is what it is :)
If you're thinking Dead Hard sucks because you just bait it or it doesn't work half the time, I'm not surprised you don't think it's strong - clearly you've never seen or used it properly yourself. After all, what's another loop or two, which can then pull you to another loop, that DH buys you in the long run, right?
Damn Head On really be overpowered
sigh
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@SkintKibbles said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/182673/dead-hard-is-overpowered
Lmao I died when you said, "literally triggers every forty seconds." I mean literally you don't have a brain. First off, it is impossible to trigger every forty seconds unless you're walking or sitting still. It also can only be used when you're injured. And people whining about it extending loops are people who fall for dead hard over and over and just need to get good. People need to understand this is a game of the mind. You need to ######### use your brain to out think the other person. If you're losing because of perks like dead hard, then you need to use your tiny brain to think of how you could become a better killer and be able to counter said perk. And if you can't think of how to become better yourself. You should consider watching players like Otz and find out what they do different from you.
I applaud you, Otz is pretty cool too.
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@Azgard12 said:
I think some survivors love Dead Hard for the dopamine hit it provides when the killer swings and misses.
IMO, it would be a great perk if the killer is stunned if they swing during it.
But then if they buffed Dead Hard all of the salty killer mains would get mad and demand for a nerf 😕
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@Pipefish said:
A second chance perk that literally triggers every forty seconds. Who thought this was a good idea. My suggestion is to have it give you the broken status like no mither. What you all think ?
No mither is one of the worst perks in the game rn so that would make Dead Hard hard to use as well
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@RakimSockem said:
This person would not have been able to play when Exhaustion recovered while running and the perk was actually usable every 40 seconds XD
😂😂
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@NuKeD said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1530965#Comment_1530965
there is no fun either when you get genrushed and when you finally get your well deserved 4k, they get to have a second chance, lol.
Getting genrushed is you fault lol
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They should just buff remember me so that the gate regresses
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I would rate this bait 1/10
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@Opex said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1543615#Comment_1543615
nope its not fine as it is. And you would know that if you would play killer actively. Stop denying that your 3 second chances per game for pressing only one button should get taken away.
It’s more than just pressing button lol
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@Opex said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/182673/dead-hard-is-overpowered
I agree with this 10000000%. Usually if you use Dead Hard you just get 3 second chances per game for no skill at all. You just have to press E and it can get quite annoying if you have to play against it every game. Many swfs and even solo queues just all have dh. That means you have to kill them 24 times instead of 12.
First argument of survivor mains:
You can just counter it by waiting for them to DH.
Yes you can do that but thats only rarely the case. If you play huntress and throw a hatchet at them. If you play nurse and blink to them. If you play gorgon and jump to them. If you DH through a trap. If you DH to a pallet or window where you would not have made it to without it. Like the very most times you cant just respect it because of situations like I just named them.
Second argument of survivor mains:
It doesn't work anyways you are always exhausted on the floor. Thats also right it doesnt work many times because of dedicated servers making you die while having exhaustion. But at the same time you are just kind of arguing FOR a DH nerf instead of against it. It is already really strong even tho it doesn't work, and even if it works wouldn't it not be even worse than?
Dead Hard is the only EXHAUSTION perk in my opinion that needs changes.
Sprint Burst allows you to gain distance but its not a second chance perks. Maybe it is as soon as you 99 it but most of the time you just don't have it 99ed. Its not often the case and this perk is usually used for gaining distance
Balanced Landing is a second chance perk yes, but the survivor first have to get to a high object to fall down from it. And not like Dead Hard you can also just respect it, don't swing just keep running after them.
Lithe is also just a perk that gives you more distance. Its not a second chance perk. It gives you a sprintburst after fast vaulting / medium vaulting a window. But you get it as soon as you are through the window the killer cant hit you anymore and you are save. It just makes you gain a lot of distance. And if the killer hits you while you are vaulting you are not gonna get the Lithe sprintburst.
Now to the NOT exhaustion perks:
DS needs a few changes. Its suppost to be a anti tunnel perk but its just a stupid second chance perk. These changes should be made:
It has no timer, it just stays until the next survivor get downed.
Your DS deactivates as soon as you start healing, cleansing a totem, working on generators, etc... it should just deactive as soon as you start working on your objectives.
Soulguard shouldnt give you the BT effect after SOMEONE ELSE heals you up from the floor. It should only active when you pick yourself up from the floor with soulguard. If the killer has no Hex perk but you got unbreakable and recover with it you shouldnt get the BT. Only if the killer has a hex perk and you get yourself up with soulguard.
Unbreakable needs changes, but I don't have any good ideas in my mind at the moment. Slugging is a completely fair strategy and is sometimes needed to build up presure. If all 4 survivors have unbreakable and stuff its just not fair.
They nerfed ruin because it was used in 80% of the matches and gave you really much for nothing. But these perks like DH, DS and Unbreakable just do the exact same. And I really want to know in how many % of all games these perks are used. I can already bet its even MORE than ruin got used before. And that on 4 players instead of 1 and with multiple perks. They have to stop sucking survivors dicks and just remove these OP perks. If you play against a strong swf its hard to win of course and thats how its suppost to be like. If you got 4 really good experienced players communicating with each other. But there is legit 0% chance to win against them if they all have full meta second chance perk builds. even if the swf is not even good its just enough to have them using these perks. And its just impossible to win against them.
Dead Hard is only effective if you use it effectively. You said Dead Hard uses no skill. False, If dumb people are using Dead Hard it is a a easy down. On the other hand if smart people are using Dead Hard why utilize it really well and it takes some kind of skill to bait out a hit to make it to the next tile with Dead Hard. If you just haphazardly press E for Dead Hard without some sort of after plan you just costed yourself a down. Smart players use Dead Hard to avoid getting down. If they use it once and you miss, remember that so you can bait it out. If they use a perk effectively and you fall for it, that is entirely for fault. Just because someone used a perk to the best of its ability doesn’t mean it should be changed.
Why do you have to kill a survivor 24 times than 12? That number is not accurate at all
1)If they mess up, Boom a down that’s already -1
2)If a survivor Dead Hards to a new tile and they know how to loop, you are wasting your time chasing them when you could be patrolling gens or applying pressure to other survivors.
3) They are injured and are more vulnerable, they bleed out blood, they have grunts of pain( if they don’t have iron will). Although that’s the point of Dead Hard is being injured, but that’s why people run it. So they can survive longer in chars while injured
4) You can’t use Dead Hard while being healthy, compared to all the other exhaustion perks, so in theory it should have a useful effect, Right?
When you run Dead Hard you run the risk of knowing you can’t use while healthy, you know that Dead Hard is inconsistent. So their is a risk in running Dead Hard, so you have to be smart abt it.
All of the Exhaustion perks are fine, ever since Balanced Landing got nerfed which was a good change. Every exhaustion perks had it uses. Also I don’t understand why Balanced Landing is a second chance perk?
DS should be changed, it should turn off when you do anything else other than running away.But I don’t use because some games I don’t even get to use it.
Soul Guard is ok it is only good when combined with other perks like UB. Like every perk, by itself it could be ok at best, but when paired up with other powers or other perks it could be powerful. If the killer isn’t even running any Hex perks than the second part of Soul Guard is not usable.
Unbreakable is only a one time use perk , If they use it they have a inactive perk slot, other than recovering faster. If you have all for survivors slugged and they have unbreakable and they get up, then that is your fault for trying to slug for the 4K. Don’t be greedy just hook them.
i don’t really understand why the Devs nerfed Ruin, it was really good and in a good spot because it waste time looking for the totem and it encourages to hit great skills checks to get better at the game. Ruin was a good and healthy perk of the game, because it encourages a good play style.
The Devs need to balance out really bad perks to make them good to shake up the meta. So you won’t only see the same 8 perks every game. I would rather honestly see perks reworked or buffed/nerfed before I see any new content.
Also if it a 0% chance on winning against survivors using certain perks than this game would be dead and killers would stop playing this game. But that’s not the case because people are winning against the survivors with those perks.
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@NursesBootie said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1543395#Comment_1543395
You're mixing my arguments and didn't answered my question regarding your nurse experience.
Usually I don’t like saying how much hours I play on killer/survivor because you can have many hours in the game and still be bad or you can have a few hours and be really good.
I play both sides and when I play killer Or more specifically The Nurse I always expect the Dead Hard even if they don’t have Dead Hard. I play enough Nurse to know what to do and what to prioritize and how to mindgame survivors to get me a down. Nurse is very complex, I know that, I played a lot of Nurse before the rework and after the Rework a little bit less because I wanted to play Demo, but I know how to play Nurse to get me 4ks and 3ks and piping. If that’s what your asking.
Usually Most killer mains don’t have a problem with Dead Hard.
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@NursesBootie said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1542504#Comment_1542504
Why if i may ask? You also ignored the dead hard for distance argument btw.
Nurse gameplay and counterplay to nurse is one of the most layered mindgames in dbd. "Dead Hard", used by a good survivor of course, deletes one of your good reads. Against good players only one successful DH can shift the tides of a match.
Because the Nurse has the ability to gain distance easily. If a survivor Dead Hards for distance to a pallet or window, you can use your blink to get ahead or catch up, you can literally teleport. Dead Harding for distance on a Nurse is irrelevant most of the time.
If a good survivor uses their Dead Hard successfully and you make a mistake. Simple you just got outplayed. Try again because now you know that person has Dead Hard.
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@NursesBootie said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1542475#Comment_1542475
You mean i should slam my head against a wall, if i blink perfect on a survivor as nurse and don't even swing because i know that he'll DH?
Or do you mean the totally counterable DH for distance?
if you are playing Nurse you should have no problem with Dead Hard if you know that person has DH. If you are struggling against DH as Nurse then you just need to get better lmao
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@NursesBootie said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1542432#Comment_1542432
Yeah, a status you will automatically achieve sooner or later. Huge requirement kappa.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1542442#Comment_1542442
AND it gives invincibility frames. AND it's activateable with the press on a button.
Every other exhaustion perks can be used while healthy or injured, while with Dead Hard you have to be injured. What are trying to say here? Being injured is not a favorable position for the survivor. That’s why Dead Hard is used, to allow being injured more bearable.
If you have to vulnerable to use a perks don’t you think the effect should be somewhat useful? The invincibility frames aren’t even that long either, it doesn’t last 3 seconds like most of the others.
Just because you whiffed a attack on a survivor who had Dead Hard doesn’t mean it should be nerfed. It just means you need to use you head if they use it.
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@NursesBootie said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1542423#Comment_1542423
Well they don't allow you to dodge killers powers for free, they're quite fine. Most of then also have a requirement like a vault or running.
DH is activateable on the click of a button. It also gives you invincibility frames.
Do you know that Dead Hard has a requirement? And it is more dangerous than the others. Wanna take a guess? It’s being I N J U R E D.
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@Waffleyumboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1542418#Comment_1542418
That's kind of the point of exhaustion perks...nerf BL, Lithe, and SB too?
Exactly, I don’t understand why people complain about Dead Hard, just be patient or if they use to get distance just remember that for next time so you can play around it.
Exhaustion perks are supposed to help the user. Don’t complain
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1541611#Comment_1541611
Good survivors don’t use it to avoid hits, they use it to make a pallet or vault, and the killer can’t do anything about it except watch them skip ahead.
I thought perks were supposed to help the user? Just because you get a little dash to get 1 or 2 loops doesn’t mean it’s OP. And if you see the skip ahead, if you are smart you will remember they have DH and play around it, it’s not hard.
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DBD has fallen into The state where people even think dead hard is overpowered, and I even saw a thread earlier saying spine chill is op. LOL
i hate seeing this phrase, but I’ll say it for you , Get good.
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bruh
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Prophunt: Survivors at spawn choose a item to be and when spawned in they have 1:30 minutes to hide, inspired by Cows IAM
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Honestly would rather the Devs to buff/ rework old perks that suck, like the meta is getting kinda stale
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i like that idea and the same could be added to our cosmetics we like
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watch one day people will seriously consider nerfing perfectly fine perks like Iron Will, POP goes the weasel, BBQ and Chilli, Dead Hard, Borrowed Time. When I see that happen I will remember it started now
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That would shake the meta a lot which would be a nice change of pace for me at least, and would probably make weaker perks stronger like autodidact
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If they made more viable perks you would see less people complaining about the small pp build due to BETTER PERKS, and vice versa to killer.
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@handfulofrain said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1530410#Comment_1530410
Pls don't talk about balance if you think thana is a good perk
You missed his point but ok, and Thana isn’t bad but it’s the killers power and addons and other perks you use to synergize with Thana, that makes Thana a very good perk , like for example Thana on The plague and The Forever Freddy Build which uses Thana. It’s the perks you use that makes Thana good. Just like survivor, Is DS good by itself? Yes, but using UB and Soul Guard make it even stronger. It’s all about the other perks you combine, that’s why BHVR gave us 4 perks slots not 1.
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It sorta needs a buff ngl
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@Rivyn said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1526968#Comment_1526968
By this logic, tunneling doesn't exist, since it's the killers objective to kill as efficiently as possible.
I wouldn’t say that is efficient on killing survivors because if you are just focusing on 1 survivor you are just wasting your time on that person while other survivors get the generators done thus only getting you 1-2 kills, when you could be actively hooking other survivors to get them on their last hook and applying map pressure on other survivors to not do their objective. So tunneling isn’t that efficient and it isn’t a good comparison to “ gen rushing.” That doesn’t even consider the perks they could be running like DS, BT, Adrenaline,etc. Unless they are toxic entitled survivors then you can tunnel and camp for all I care lmao 😂
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@SoylentPixie said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1526976#Comment_1526976
Can the shovel play the 'Great Escape' theme tune while you do?
Honestly, while there are a 'few' dedicated 'ignore everything else including solos on hook' types, Gen rushing is pretty much survivors doing their main objective effectively. The term gets thrown around sometimes (not always) as an excuse as to why someone lost the game and occasionally as a slur at survivors who dared to complete their objective quickly.
I always found the latter odd when i ran into so many Mori games....
And the thing is, it is usually the killers fault for letting them “ gen rush “ the killer have to know when to let go of chases and patrol gens and balance out downing people. You just have to make the right choices, which usually killers don’t, and they proceed to let a survivor loop them for 5 minutes and then the gates get powered and proceeds to complain and about toxic genrushers
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The devs also need to tweak Myers addons maybe imo
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@EmpireWinner said:
The term is used when survivors prioritize gens. Gen rushing doesn't exist. Really, it's the only objective for survivors in order to escape
i can’t tell how how much I agree with this post, like what else are survivors gonna do to get out , try to break the gate? Use a shovel to dig out?
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Damn ikr DS is just too strong, like having to see each survivor after each generator being popped is overpowered. They seriously need to nerf Dark sense
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@Zeus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1524782#Comment_1524782
You just bumped it back up.
Oh lol 😂
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wait wasn’t this already posted or am I wrong ?
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That would make thrill of the hunt be in awkward position