mizark3
mizark3
About
- Username
- mizark3
- Joined
- Visits
- 2,135
- Last Active
Comments
-
All of them. I see an empty slot, and 5 trillion BP worth of a useless add-ons, I'm still plugging that empty slot with them.
As far as some of my favorite's/most value per Killer.
Trapper: Coffee Grounds (Y) + Fastening Tools (G), turns Trapper into a chase Killer, and it trips people up LOL.Wraith: Double Shadow Dance (P+G), it feels sooooo good having double kick speed.
Billy: I haven't settled in to some of his new ones, but double Bump CD was hilarious before.
Nurse: Double Meme Add-ons, she is so busted, I can still predominantly win with both of these.
Myers: Dead Rabbit (Y), I love combining this with Monitor and Abuse for the dreaded 6m TR, sadly Macmillan and Autohaven maps make this and all TR reduction perks useless. Please delete those maps or include actual LOS blockers instead of 2ft tall junk piles.
Hag: Battle Hag best Hag! Waterlogged Shoe (I) + Scarred Hand (P) are hilarious when chasing super fast and blocking chokepoints at the same time.
Doctor: Double Calm (P+G), I love sneaking up on people and blasting the entire map to find everyone.
Huntress: Double Haft (Y+B), I love machine gunning people, and windup messes with my muscle memory.
Bubba: Speed Limiter (B) + Iri Flesh (I) is so fun to mow people down, they get confused for a second, then get mowed down again.
Freddy: Double Skillcheck (G/Y/B) combined with the skillcheck perks is way more fun than skillcheck Doc. Significantly weaker after anti-3 gen mechanic, but that is for the best.
Pig: Razor Wires (Y) + Interlocking Razor (B), better not heal before doing boxes or you might cut yourself, better not cut yourself anyways or you will have to start mending. I love the theme of actual making boxes more deadly.
Clown: I always like to joke that a Clown's winrate is directly proportional to their Yellow bottle usage, so I love using Cigar Box (P) + Garish Make-Up Kit (P) to see people and zoom longer.
Spirit: Gotta say, as someone with hearing damage, she just isn't fun to play as or against. Maybe if they put in sized subtitles based on distance for sounds, she'd be fine, but she isn't fun on either side for me atm.
Legion: Etched Ruler (Y) + Stab Wounds Study (P) is super fun to stab people, run off, and de-power if they foolishly mend early. It also helps punish the people throwing, so Survivors don't hate their team (which IMO is the main reason people don't like Legion).
Plague: Not a fun Killer for both sides. As Killer you can win by just 3-genning (even with the new system in place, so you win without skill, so there is no fun in playing her), both sides have false hits/misses with poor projectile coding, and for Survivor she deletes a basekit mechanic (healing). Poor design, add-ons can't even redeem her.
Ghosty: 2 sets are super fun. 1: Olsen's Journal (Y) so Marked Survivors are Oblivious, combined with Outdoor Security Camera (I) to have an 'on-demand' Floods of Rage. You can Mark Surv A, Marked down and hook Surv B, then hit Surv A on cooldown at the last 10-15s when they don't expect it. 2: Drop-Leg Knife Sheathe (P) + Driver's License (P), so you can even mark other Survivors to get them off a gen while also getting a speed boost to down the person you are chasing.
Demo: Vermilion Webcap (P) + Red Moss (I) to sneak up on people that aren't expecting it, with Leprose Lichen (I) being an alternative for the Purple since 3 extra seconds isn't enough to matter usually.
Oni: Double Blood (P+G) combined with NOT slugging makes it so that you always have your power ready when you need it. So much better than the 'normal' slugging playstyle.
Mr. Yeehaw: Double reload (G+B) just feels needed, although now you can manage with just the Brown and it doesn't feel too bad.
Pyramid Head: Double Range (G+Y) just feels bad when you don't use it, so sadly I'm addicted to these. Hopefully they can basekit 1.5m and replace the Green or both the Yellow and Brown.
Blight: Before the add-on pass I personally liked Shredded Notes (Y) + Adrenaline Vial (G) for a .67/charge recovery, or 4s max for all 6 tokens (back when they gave -1, +2). Now, I'm not really sure.
Twins: They are ruining my favorite build sadly.
Trickster: Double movement speed (Y+B) is fun, if non-interactive for Survivors, but that's just Trickster in general.
Nemmy: Double Zombie Power Gain (G+Y), because it's fun to power fantasy as this beast that destroys everything in its path.
Pinhead: Not a lot of fun found here sadly.
Berd Lady: Honestly I really like Charcoal Stick (G) when you position it at a loop and a gen at the same time. Plus people just in general don't stare off in the distance when soloq or casual SWFing as much, so it can get a lot of value (except against the super tip top Survs).
Onion Ring: I love my Rickety Pinwheel (G), people never expect the Oblivious when you have a lullaby, but you only have the lullaby when you are phasing. Easy sneaky mode.
Dredge: It is best played when you provide pressure on everyone at all times, so Auras help the most. Worry Stone (G) + Lavalier Microphone (P) are so good, and you can tell a free win when people don't realize you have the Lav Mic from the locker slams.
Wesker: I really like Bullhorn (Y) + Portable Safe (G). It forces a heal off hook and then you can chase the rescuer, or if they greed the gen b4 fren to spray before healing, it makes sneaking up on them all the easier. I don't like how well it plays into tunneling, but I do like punishing injured gen repairs.
Knight: The wombo combo of Town Watch's Torch (G) and Blacksmith's Hammer (P) is great. You can either win chase (even against old MfT by reversing the benefit) much easier, or break off and get a hit on someone else. The Exhaustion lasts so long, that you can even get the free hit on Surv B and return to chase Surv A and it'll still be slowing them down.
Missing Killer Slot
Singularity: I personally really liked Live Wires (G) + Spent Oxygen Tank (G), as it was perfect for countering the prevalent old MfT. The wires also help with people screaming to tell you where they are if you get some extra spreads.
Alien: Cereal Rations (B) are sooooo good. This is a self-report for every Survivor location, and you can either take out the turret immediately, or plan your route accordingly. It is such a disgusting lose-lose for Survivors, as they need to counter you with turrets, but that just snitches their own location out to you.
Chucky+Unknown: I need more than 6 months to get a good feel for what are the most fun add-ons for sure. Sometimes I underrate something and just can't say for sure what my favorite add-on is when many are super fun. -
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3701951#Comment_3701951
I wasn't ignoring it, I was directly responding to it.
The entire premise, as near as I can tell, rests on the central assertion that what we have in this game fundamentally resembles a Ranked mode in some meaningful way, therefore we need more Ranked hallmarks to support it. I'm assuming that's a central pillar of your argument, not least because you've repeated it in this post too. It's therefore pretty relevant that it's completely wrong.
There's nothing that really separates DBD's matchmaker from the casual mode in most other games, at least to my understanding of the topic. They use the same central core - a number that goes up when you win and down when you lose - and they prioritise speed over accuracy to varying degrees.
None of the things that separate casual mode from Ranked mode (typically a visible rank, a series of balance adjustments like a pick/ban phase and restrictions on certain elements, and a series of placement matches to determine your rank, among a few other game-specific things and a few things that only exist in comparison to a casual mode, EG, stricter penalties for DCing) are present in DBD. We just don't have anything that makes the current methodology actually play like a Ranked mode. We just have a bog standard, regular casual mode.
As an aside, what do you mean when you say we "removed the incentive to play fair with Emblems"? Emblems haven't gone anywhere, and have in fact become easier to play towards with the changes to how specific ones work + the removal of depipping coming up. If you want to make the argument that we should emphasise Emblems more with better rewards and better feedback for filling them, sure, that's a conversation I think could yield some useful results, but the idea that we "removed" them just because they're no longer awkwardly bent into a shape they fundamentally don't support by forcing them to be a (very bad!) matchmaker is very silly.
The fact is, what we had before could actually be called a Ranked mode, sort of. It still wasn't, really, but at least it actually had some of the hallmarks of a Ranked queue. Now, though, what we have is very firmly a quick play mode and is less similar to Ranked.
P2 - Tools and processes can be used incorrectly, then we learn and adjust to them. It's fine for a child to do chores and help out around the house, it isn't cool for them to work in coal mines because they can fit in the smaller gaps. This misuse of the tool (MMR) is being used when it shouldn't be, or isn't doing it correctly in the other casual modes just as we have it being misused in DBD.
P3 - We are being pushed to sweaty play, or actions more commonly associated with ranked play (or alternatively the guard rails for less sweaty/casual play were removed), but we don't have the QoL to deal with it. I am saying if we stick with sweatlording/Kills+Escapes/MMR, then we should get those bans/picks to make the game tolerable. Sweat is a symptom of ranked behaviours, including but not limited to all those you listed (visible ranks, etc.). We have the sweat symptom, but we don't have the deodorant to cover up the stench (bans and other ranked QoL). That doesn't mean sweat doesn't happen in the environment of casual matches also, but they are designed around the casual fun with fans to cool people off and limit the stink (limiting the max negative and or sweaty behavior through separate encouragement).
P4 - Emblems are there, but aren't used for matchmaking. That's what I mean by removed Emblems(-based matchmaking). It was them being the driver of behavior, not a side thought at best, is why I so broadly state that. The game is unique enough in being asymmetrical, that it needs something to fix the rules of its matchmaking. If the Survivor team gained and lost MMR together, that would 'fix' a lot of the problems with it, although that goes too far against the Dev's stated goal of the game being a 1v1v1v1v1. If we created our own rules and encouraged behaviors (with Emblems) for matchmaking, then that also would 'fix' a lot more of the problems with it. Essentially you have to bend and break MMR and Emblems in order to perfect matchmaking. There is less bending and breaking involved with the custom ruleset designed with the game in mind, than the tool intended for 1 on 1s, or X sized team against X sized team. Since we have X and Y sized teams, the system must bend, and stops working as well as it should. Emblems were a better matchmaker than MMR even with the edge-cases. The worst part was 20-50hr new players playing with the sweaty Red ranks, but even then, most Killers were actually casual enough back then to ease up off the gas and onto the brakes back then. That isn't the case now.
P5 - That's fine to consider Emblems more ranked than MMR, but I'm saying it provided more casual fun than MMR does. When I was brand new, when I was mildly experienced, and when I basically reached the top bracket and stayed there on into MMR, I always had more fun with Emblems being the factor than MMR. It helped Killers, with Survivors being more casual, bringing less sweaty perks, and cleansing totems, and opening chests. I loved my loot-goblin build (Plunderer's+Ace in the Hole+Appraisal), but I can't have fun with it currently. It helped Survivors, with Killers being more casual, trying to spread the pressure more often than currently, and Slug races being around 1/10 matches (IME) now being 1/100 matches (IME). Even the complaints about gen times are complaints about sweat. The complaints about sweat are both a valid issue and a skill issue at the same time. It is a skill issue when the person is sweating against sweat, but its a valid issue when they never wanted to go in against people trying to sweat.
My issue with ranked and casual is that ranked isn't fun, casual is fun. Emblems(-based matchmaking) were fun, MMR isn't fun. Ranked QoL reduces the 'unfun', and is needed if we want to continue down this path. Alternatively we can use an old-janky system that provided more fun, even if it had major and minor hiccups. That old janky system may have been more 'ranked' than MMR, but it more importantly was less sweaty, and thus, more fun. -
First off the win or loss for Killer is on a Survivor by Survivor basis. If you kill a better Survivor (than you according to MMR), it was a 'better' win. If a weaker Survivor (than you according to MMR) escapes, it was a 'worse' loss. Assuming all 4 players are equal MMR, then 2k 2e should be a tie. You would get positive points for the kills, and negative points for the escapes, all (theoretically) equal to one another.
There was a change that did reduce the weight of a loss for Survivors when their team died early, but I'm not sure how that played out (whether the equal MMR Survivor would have lost 10 points and Killer gained 10 points becoming S -5 and K +10 still, or S -5 and K +5).
Ultimately, the best way to enjoy the game is make up your own win condition instead, as Kill and Escapes are a very poor metric. I like having my wincon be a Devour Hope Mori'ing the lobby, or Killing the person that cleansed it, then letting everyone else go. -
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3701036#Comment_3701036
This doesn't make any sense, by this definition casual/quick play modes can't exist.
Games that have the distinction between quick play and ranked will use a number that goes up or down depending on outcome to match people with for either queue, because that's just what a matchmaker is. By your definition, BOTH modes are inherently and unavoidably ranked mode.
While that may be strictly accurate (maybe), it's not useful. DBD does not have a ranked mode by any definition other than this, and only has a casual mode; one where there aren't restrictions designed to enforce competitive fairness, there isn't a visible rank to try and strive for, and the MMR just works as an invisible matchmaker in the background.
If it were to have a ranked mode, nothing about the current mode would change, it'd just be labelled "Quick Play" or "Casual", because it is the one that would fill that role and the new queue would be ranked, necessarily. You'd need to add in all the stuff that makes a queue a ranked mode.
The end paragraph seems to be entirely ignored, which is the most important part. My claim is that when the decision for matchmaking is so poor, it needs to be offset by QoL features like found in other games' Ranked modes in order to be made enjoyable. Emblems encouraged an enjoyable experience for all, and K/E encourages the sweatiest gameplay. Even if we want to give credit to the claim 'people don't know their MMR, so that shouldn't matter', that still ignores that we removed the incentive to play fun and fair towards emblems. Emblems can still be considered ranked, but they encouraged such a better experience for all, such that they don't need Ranked QoL features as much to mitigate the all too common bad scenarios MMR-based matchmaking (or the lack of Emblem-based matchmaking) causes. I often have to play against the exact same Killer player playing the exact same Killer multiple times at some points, and if I want variety, fun, I need a Killer ban so I can wait in queue for a different Killer. With emblems, the matchmaking pool size was large enough that I could safely get different Killers far more frequently, so I didn't need Killer bans to have fun. Heck, I don't even need Killer bans if we got Killer repeat prevention instead, but that much needed QoL was only needed after the swap to MMR-matchmaking (IME).
Our main game mode is ranked, because when we look at what the founding MMR Dev said about matchmaking, we don't 'substantially de-prioritize MMR when finding a match' or use different MMR for different playlists. Yes, the casual modes in that Dev's example used MMR also, but the MMR was firstly unique to each playlist (casual and ranked, as well as Capture the Flag, etc.). Lights Out and My Little Oni didn't use a new MMR number as far as I understand, so they weren't casual by that Dev's methodology. They may have been intended to be casual fun, but it kept the diseased ranked/sweatfest mindset by porting over the same MMR (at least was my experience with those game modes, with people playing for $5 Subway cards). The second issue is that MMR needs to be de-prioritized. That means if you find only 5 people (4S 1K) after 2 minutes, they get a match, doesn't matter what their MMR brackets are. Now technically we do that now with the expanding ranges, but it isn't done well enough from my experience with matches.As far as de-prioritizing also, we mostly only do that when we get autofills, but the problem there is 4/5 people are expecting to play at their level (from hundreds of sweaty matches prior), and then you get 1 person significantly above or below that expectation. The Killer could be autofilled against babies when the Killer is expecting a clock SWF, or a random sweatlord Surv can be brought in with 3 mid-level Survs and a mid-level Killer. If autofill matchmaking was the norm, then we wouldn't go into matches expecting giga-sweatfests every match, we would know it is a total gamble, and can have more fun with the ups and downs. People wanting to sweat can still take their super-sweat into customs by organizing scrims with various communities, and that helps quarantine them away from the rest of the community.
My overall point is the current methodology plays like a Ranked game mode, without the features that make Ranked 'playable'. People weren't sweating every match (when I played at Red Ranks) under Emblems, but they are (when I play at above 75% winrate as Killer, and when getting tomes as Survivor) under MMR. MMR matchmaking, or more accurately the wincon being a blind K/E, is encouraging the sweaty gameplay, and needs the Ranked QoL to make the game 'playable'/enjoyable. Unfortunately, we currently we have to struggle against the system in place for the good matches. -
@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3701091#Comment_3701091
the fact that you are being ranked just for the purpose of being matched with someone with similar skill level to make the matches more fair for you doesn't mean you are playing anything like true ranked mode.
E.g. if you play soccer with your friends for some pure fun, should you be accused of trying to play it like you are in a tournament when you try to distribute players with different skill level even between both teams so you can all have a fun and fair match? Of course not.
And, to be honest, old grade based matchmaking was more of a definition of ranked than SBMM with hidden MMR number will ever be, since back then, you were playing for a clearly visible grade and you were matched with people of similar grade, which made it also much easier to smurf.
Having a hidden MMR/elo number never meant it's a half-baked ranked mode for a game, even the most casual PvP games have it.
If you watched the video OP posted, or read the article, or read the Game Dev's* comments, then you would know that the Dev said MMR is currently being used incorrectly. The casual game modes that use MMR aren't supposed to use MMR to nearly that degree in the first place. "Yes, our engineers utilized the same codebase and kept skill/level as a search criteria, but we substantially de-prioritized it in matchmaking."
*The game dev who was 'responsible for'/'the founder of' modern MMR.
Also the modes that do use MMR are supposed to throw in (far more than currently provided) expected wins and losses on occasion to break up the stress of high-intensity even sweatfests. "Why not always evenly match people though? My reasoning was that these are actually the most stressful matches of the set.""The failure of modern skill-based matchmaking, imho, is that it's designed to maximize these perfect match scenarios and minimize the others."
Modern MMR implementation goes against what is was designed for. It's like using a Hammer on Screws, or a Screwdriver on Nails, it's simply the wrong tool for the job. Sure you can get the Nails pounded in with the Screwdriver, but that isn't how it should be used. -
@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3700938#Comment_3700938
again, having an invisible number determine who you are going to be matched with based on your skill is NOT ranked. It's just about making matches more fair by you not being matched with someone way better or worse than you. Ranked is a mode where you are playing for something visible to everyone, fully optimally.
Again, just because a color on a (3 primary color) palette is combined with Yellow to create Green, does NOT mean it is Blue. That is how I read your first sentence. It doesn't matter how confidently you say something if it is clearly, visibly, and objectively false. An alternative would be "Nurse moves faster than Survivors without perks, add-ons, blinks, or Bloodlust." My confidence in that statement has no bearing on the factual nature of it.
A number determining your matchmaking is ranked, unless that number is a queue ticket/your number in line/your purchase ID. If it adjusts one way when you win, and the opposite way when you lose, that's ranked. It doesn't matter if it is public or private, if you are still being ranked and matchmade according to the metrics of the game outcomes.
If it needs to be public, then that just shows that normal matches are ranked, as it doesn't hide whether a Survivor escaped or died to other Survivors. That showed everyone else that they won or lost. Plus plenty of games have ranked modes without replays, or ranked modes without match histories. That doesn't make them unranked.
My issue is that if we want such a bland Ranked/matchmaking qualifier as Kill/Escape, then we need significant Ranked QoL to make up for the deficits inherent to that methodology. If we used Emblems again, then those issues would be less noticeable or no longer even existing, and might not need those same QoL features to make up for the no longer visible or existing deficits. -
@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3700841#Comment_3700841
SBMM is NOT ranked. Example, League of Legends. Even unranked matches and the literal RNG mode aram have SBMM, ranked is mode where you play for a rank that is visible to everyone.
Back to the main post. I wouldn't say that SBMM has to go. The problem is that soft MMR cap is too low and the 1600+ MMR zone is way overflooded with players of many skill levels. Just tighten MMR up a bit and it will be much better.
If my matchmaking is tied to a number altered based on my wins/losses, I'm playing ranked. The dev listed in OP's video showed how unranked allowed for highly skilled and unskilled (high winrate/MMR players and low winrate/MMR players) to be in the same match. Saying it isn't ranked doesn't make it true, as you literally are ranked on your results.
The main problem isn't the MMR cap, it's the win condition. The win condition is a blanket kill/escape, instead of the more nuanced gradients that Emblems provided. When we defend MMR, we endorse "we're ignoring how you got there", and making a colossal mistake. Assuming people will 'play nice' was a mistake, and we are foolish children that need to be encouraged with the Emblems guiding our hands. -
@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3700880#Comment_3700880
"As far as Dying Light, I think the buff to the Obsession is overrated.
It only minimally helps them, although I wouldn't be opposed to the buff
scaling with the debuff (3% heal+unhook per non Obs hook), instead of
starting at max power."We could remove the buff to the Obsession component but also make only alternating hooks count towards the tokens. So if you ever hook the same person in a row it doesn't give a token.
"If I wanted to be a jerk I could 2 hook everyone and camp my Penti as
Plague to get 18% Dying Light, 20% Thana, 30% Penti, for ~280s gens due
to how it stacks. I don't have a good enough fix to improve this for
Killer though, so I think it is better left off alone."I mean I feel this situation isn't even worth mentioning as it's extremely niche. You have to be completely outplaying them first and then they can just cleanse removing the Thana component. Also assuming they cleanse the totem. Also going most the entire match to begin with having no real slow down. There's just so many things that would have to go just right for this scenario and even then you could be throwing the game trying this. Unless the point is just griefing? I mean back when we had the old versions we could do just this scenario and I never once, not a single time saw anyone do this.
Dying Light ignoring Obsession, only working on non-repeat hooks - Yeah this would be a fair change.
Slowdown stacking - I mean it may be niche, but it also is the only way we see things play out now. If they stacked multiplicatively instead of additively, then it would probably be fine. This is the problem we had with Forever Freddy back when he slowed gens while in the dream world, and it was miserable. We probably shouldn't open up the possibility of that happening again.
-
@WitchQueenTrina said:
I have three suggestions for new base kit mechanics that I believe would help address some problematic gameplay behaviors.
1. Wiggle bar reduction.
For each hook state a survivor has, the amount of wiggle progress needed to struggle free is reduced by 30%, sort of like a brand new part but on the wiggle bar, but for every hook state on other survivors the amount is reduced by 10%.
So in the case that the killer has singled out a survivor at the beginning of the match to tunnel, and hasn't hooked anyone else, when that survivor is on their death hook they will struggle free at 40% progress. Similarly if a killer has just been juggling two survivors, and they are both on their death hooks, while the remaining two haven't been hooked, then both survivors will struggle free at 60%. Alternatively if all four survivors have been hooked once or twice then they all have to wiggle the full 100% to struggle free.
2. Blendy killer instinct.
As much as tunneling is a problem, there are also quite often survivors who, very early on in a match, stop working on generators and start hiding and just waiting for the other survivors to die so the hatch will spawn. Sometimes these survivors stop playing as soon as one survivor has been sacrificed, or even sometimes from the beginning of the match if they have a key or a challenge, effectively making it impossible for the other survivors to finish the generators.
My response to this behaviour is every 90 seconds each survivor generates a killer instinct notification for the killer, and for every hook state 30 seconds are added to the timer, but every hook state on other survivors reduces the timer by 10 seconds, therefore a survivor that is getting tunneled will only give off a killer instinct every 150 seconds, but a survivor who has survived to the end game collapse without being hooked would have a constant killer instinct.
This wouldn't completely prevent these survivors from throwing the other survivors under the bus, but I think it would add a needed level of risk to their gameplay. I think we've all been that second to last survivor, hitting the skill checks on our second stage hook, just trying to make the game last a little longer, hoping the killer can find the survivor who threw the game for everyone.
3. 4% slug recovery.
The earlier attempt at a base kit unbreakable didn't go very well, but it remains true that a killer going for a four man slug, especially at the very start of a match, is a very aggravating experience, and unless the survivors have very specific perks to counter it than it can be very difficult to deal with.
My idea here is that after a survivor has fully recovered, to the point where they have to get help from another survivor, they are given the option to try to get up, maybe give it a little animation where they try to push themselves to their feet.
Each attempt would take a few seconds, maybe 3-5, and have a 4% chance of success, just like trying to jump off the hook. To balance this out, so that a survivor can't just crawl into a corner and get 50 free tries to get up, every attempt to get up would generate a killer instinct notification at their location, so if used in a more normal match, where the killer simply lost the downed survivor, it would carry an element of risk as you're revealing your location to the killer.
- Only if this applies to Survivors already at 100% also. That way if I got 6 hooks on 3 Survs, the Distortion Rat has 160% wiggle bar size, so they get out in 25.6s on their first pickup.
- This seems good. I originally had a suggestion that if you are tied for the least hooks, then Distortion/OTR/Shadow-Step stealth perks don't work on you. That way you still needed to balance your build as Killer and bring Intel perks (to prevent 4 slowdowns). This could work though, I just don't like the idea of hiding for a hook save being cut short by a KI giving the Killer 2 hooks in basement for free. Maybe if the bar was visible for Survivors, and you could do a 'hold-breath' type action to delay it by 30s once per match/hook it would be fine.
- The problem with the basekit UB was the Mori system duct-taped to it, and healing slugs taking longer (poorly coded so it took 22.5s to heal instead of 16s as normal). Without the Mori system (and the heal bug), the basekit UB was fine. I think this attempt to stand should also come with a quicker bleedout/15-30s instantly, to make it a parallel to Kobes in allowing a surrender when being bledout like surrendering on hook to spawn hatch. Maybe to prevent abuse, enable Survivors to heal you for 5s after an attempt, that holding Run doesn't even prevent. That way it can't be used to tantrum without getting picked up.
-
@Mooks said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3700895#Comment_3700895
I mean… that’s what people say with SBMM right now??
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3700896#Comment_3700896
most killers were outliers, any insta-down ability was and stealth as well..
But still.. the matchmaking itself didn’t even do what it was supposed to. It was rare to see matches were everyone was around the same rank. Rainbow rank matches were the norm.
and it was fairly easy to reach red ranks anyways. I got it pretty much every month..The instadown got fixed and counted as 2 Malicious points, I play plenty of Ghosty (mostly Exposed downing people) and Malicious isn't a problem. Stealth I listed for chase, unless you meant stealth not progressing Survivor's Evader emblem enough. In which case yeah, they probably would have fixed it if they spent the dev time on Emblems instead of MMR.
Matchmaking consistently gave me 1 rank difference matches (and more only with full range SWFs as you can check their steam to see they are friends). If you were Tier 2, you could reasonably expect Tier 1-3 enemies. That's the same that happens now with MMR, and autofills provide the true rainbow experience (play soloq for 1 hour and you will get a teammate that clearly forget their brain in their other set of pants). If we saw MMR, then you would see the 1200 alongside 1600/1800/2000 and a 2200 in the match. So if we hid Ranks, the same effect would happen with better gameplay being rewarded.
As far as reaching high on emblems, yes it was mostly a playtime measure, but isn't that what people use as a metric for skill anyways in place of MMR? The idea was it goes up as long as you play (not like a jerk), and it drops only a tiny bit each month. It would allow for you to take a 6 month break, and then quickly skill back up the ranks. Having a decent size amount of people at each rank ensured that matches are varied and not stressful boring matches like the majority of mine have most recently been.
-
@Mooks said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3700851#Comment_3700851
It makes killers play unfun and survivors gen rushing, because both sides can‘t mess around anymore.
also something that for me wasn’t possible with rank based matchmaking. I really don’t know if people just wear nostalgia goggles for rank based matchmaking or I was alone on the unfun side of things back than…
I can understand the sentiment with knowing about your current status at least and would be okay with some kind of indication with your MMRRank based matchmaking punished you for gen rushing without entering chase, ignoring healing, camping, and tunneling though. If you tunneled, you likely denied yourself Iridescent Malicious and/or Sacrifice by not hooking all Survs, or killing people on first hook, and camping subtracted points from Chaser. If you genrushed or ignored healing, you didn't progress Benevolent or Evader.
The emblems encouraged gameplay that offered the opposition a chance to play the game. If you were so much better than them, it still encouraged going easy on them to make them think they are playing the game at the least.
There were outliers like Plague deleting Benevolent, and Wraith/Onion Ring chases while cloaked not counting as a real chase, but those outliers could have been fixed instead of committing to the bad system we have in place now that only counts raw K/E. -
@Blueberry said:
I like this idea. If we buff more of all the other regressions like you said to compensate. Still doesn't fix the regression stacking issue unfortunately though.
Poor Thana, just revert it to the previous version. They gutted it so bad. In its best case scenario on Legion or Plague in the old version it was very good but even in those best case scenarios it still wasn't "better" than that times current regression meta perks, just good enough to be competitive with them and that was only on those two killers. It was only average on the rest the roster, and that was the previous version. The current one is bad imo even on Legion or Plague.
Dying Light is still bad. They need to remove the buff it gives to Obsession, now it's alright. Alright, not even great.
I can see it not fixing stacking regression in a sense, as I could simply rotate Survivors and still stomp them at 5 gens with 8 hooks keeping all my regression. I think this would still give those players enough time to at least feel like they played the game though. Plus it would fix the more egregious stacking slowdowns and tunneling combined.
Agreed on Thana. I tried to prevent it from being gutted back in 6.1, but sadly we got the worst possible version.
As far as Dying Light, I think the buff to the Obsession is overrated. It only minimally helps them, although I wouldn't be opposed to the buff scaling with the debuff (3% heal+unhook per non Obs hook), instead of starting at max power. It can be a real pain when taken to extremes with stacking it on top of Thana and Penti though. If I wanted to be a jerk I could 2 hook everyone and camp my Penti as Plague to get 18% Dying Light, 20% Thana, 30% Penti, for ~280s gens due to how it stacks. I don't have a good enough fix to improve this for Killer though, so I think it is better left off alone. -
@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3700604#Comment_3700604
I'm not sure when this was changed.
That's long time ago, few months after release, because games were hell and queue times even worse.
They made it little bit more strict few months back, but not so much as first version.
I don't like the comp scene whatsoever, because they encourage the worst aspects of the game instead of using their custom rulesets to discourage them.
I don't understand this. They created custom rulesets just to make their games more fair.
When changed - Ok so its been bad most of the time I played through MMR. That makes sense with the rate of my growing dissatisfaction with the game.
Comp rules make the game more fair - I'm sorry, but what. I remember seeing a Huntress facecamp a player from first hook. I remember Blights and Nurses tunnel people miliseconds off hook. I remember seeing clock callouts and everything that doesn't make the game fun. Every comp match I've seen is an unplayable sweatfest where both sides actively ruin their opponents chance of having fun all for a $5 subway card. Heck, even the Huntress facecamp could still be done today (with the anti-facecamp Kobe) because it was on a hill, so the Huntress can just camp the chokepoint instead of the hook itself. None of what I've seen in comp is fair or fun. It's trying to duct-tape garbage together and seeing what falls off, while pretending they made the Mona Lisa.
To be fair, I've seen comp rules ruin games like Halo and Smash, so I'm somewhat poisoned to their rules. At the same time I've seen good comp rules like DOTA and CS and SC. The games designed to be entertainingly competitive (DOTA/CS/SC) stay fun to watch and play under their rulesets. The games designed with plenty of fair RNG elements (as in both sides can utilize them) are stripped of that RNG and also their fun. DBD comp fits under the Halo/Smash bad umbrella of comp for me, and not the DOTA/CS/SC good umbrella. DBD comp could encourage split hooks with things like 5/3/1 points for hooks, and you compare your total against the enemy team, with ties going to the fastest final escape. I've not seen those though, and only seen the worst rules imaginable. While I don't doubt a tourny/scrim setup with decent rules exists, the most common rulesets I've seen have been bad.
(But this is all a side tangent, feel free to reply to this but I won't reply again on this side tangent of the thread.) -
@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3700598#Comment_3700598
especially since I will be in chase with the next Survivor within seconds. Understandable if you don't like the level of pressure '-45 gen seconds' would provide.
That's still once less survivor involved in that, who can keep working on gen without thinking.
It provides permanent irreparable damage.
I care more about how much time that action gives me rather than simply hooks. Unless it is early game, first hook means nothing.
I denied 45s of gen time (under a theoretical basekit UB).
Which is simply lower than current version. 45 seconds of slugging + 45 seconds of gen time (because survivor doesn't have to leave).
Even if combined time of two survivors is lower, it's simply better. I have had this conversation multiple times about CoH (selfhealing in general) and this is exactly same. Multiple survivors included is always better for the killer. 45 seconds of one survivor is not that much.
I probably was in the green net positive
Still worse and difference between slugging and tunneling would become higher. So why handicap myself so much just to spare survivor?
Gens pop = I lose - It more is like I view gradients of winning (with hatch not counting)
I prefer Otz's approach. Game doesn't end until survivors leave. Your feature would make this kinda impossible. There is simply no way to get comeback without slugging.
I would want those to have something like only counting as a 'half-event' or something.
I would just make it count only kicks, or make it work only when there is 1 gen left (actually 3-gen feature).
Not bringing someone off a gen - This is why I try to use 'gen seconds'. If I block 45 gen seconds from a slug, that is different from someone running 6s (with Sprint Burst which will recover), spending 13s picking them up, then they both hop on the gen 7.5s away (same or opposite directions). That prevented 53 gen seconds, and pressured 26.5 real time seconds. This would only provide a 15% reduction on gen slowdown compared to incorporating a 45s self-pickup. So it isn't as simple as a 2 Survivor pressure/1 Survivor pressure.
First hook outside of early game gives nothing - The first hook can be anyone's last hook (as in death), soloq experience tells me that lol. It also can still provide the need for an unhook which forces a response. Slugging doesn't force the same level of response, as people often can let someone sit if they see the Killer hovering. A hook provides that pressure to trade even if the Killer is hovering, even on first hook (outside of endgame). So I would agree if you said only endgame, but not including mid-game.
Multiple Survivors math (See first paragraph, short version is 15% reduction, not 50% as would be immediately thought)
10 Killer seconds denying 45 Surv seconds still less effective than tunneling - I suppose I'm just not seeing the case to leave the Survivor slugged instead of simply tunnel hooking them immediately in either situation for the most part. I figure the Killer would commit to tunnel in both cases because otherwise it was a waste of time to down them at all for the most part.
Pyrrhic → Heroic victory for me, you prefer Otz's gate escape - I mean to each their own. I was just saying how I view my match outcomes for how well I did in them. I know I could do better (win before gens pop/8 hook before a kill) or could get luckier (Devour not cleansed), and that is what I aim for to have fun.
3-gen - The problem with only working at 3 gens, is I've had H-shaped maps have 5 gens fairly common. I can '3-gen' with more than 3-gens, so it is fixing the edge cases as well. I would agree for Eruption to simply not count at all (since the kick to apply it is already counted so it would be like Pop), but not including Surge/PR to any degree would be a massive mistake. While I think there are misfires with the current system, its net better than what we had before. To be fair I usually only bring 1 regression perk on Ghosty (PR) or use none with the Driver's License (20%+15s blocked), and I've consistently played (and mostly won) without reaching 8 events on a single gen.
-
SBMM is ranked, and ranked is only good when you have ranked QoL. Ranked QoL has things like map and Killer bans. SBMM would be fine if I could choose to never face another Plague or Oni or Skull Merchant again. It would also be fine if I could never go to Badham again. Without that basic QoL, we are playing ranked without what makes ranked 'playable'.
This has been my opinion on MMR long before this video came out.**Apr 2024 (before the vid came out), Feb 2024, Oct 2023 (Ranked), Oct 2023 (Bans), Sep 2023. 5 is good but I could probably find more if I put more effort than ctrl-f on my comment history (which only shows the first paragraph more or less).
Edit: playing ranked what → playing ranked without what -
@FrostySeal said:
Seriously how has this exploit not been fixed yet? By just crouching you can easily invalidate a lot of Killer powers in the game, especially if it's Hillbilly, Demogorgon, or Blight. You'd think by now with how stupidly easy it is to pull it off that it can be easily patched, but I guess we're still in the era of DBD where exploits take 2 years to fix.
My pet theory is due to how many maps have garbage on the floor that you can't see, they trimmed up the hitbox on many Killers (instead of fixing the floor garbage). That means all of the horrible maps being poorly designed is the reason why we don't have the real hitbox being used. (Just a guess though) Invisible walls for jumping off of 2nd stories is super important (/s), but garbage on the floor, we gotta add more.
-
@UndeddJester said:
When he put out the poll, I was wondering what the results would be... Scott cooked in this video imo...
https://youtu.be/HI7FFpVpgRY?si=MCPCe_qjtEXNnUwj
Pretty much exactly my experience with the game. I rarely see genuine tunneling... and was always confused to hear its a problem all the time and/or its the only things killers can do to win in high MMR or it happens most games.
I see it pretty rarely in my own games, maybe 1 in 10 I'd estimate, which is in line with Scotts observations, but I assumed it was more common in other regions or skill brackets... I can only think of 1 time in the last year where I got tunneled a lot one day to the point I put an anti tunnel build on (ofc it stopped after that because screw me right? 🤣).
I watch a lot of high MMR players games, and I almost never see genuine hard tunneling, usually tunneling is a result of survivor actions rather than killer actions...
So this video was pretty cathartic to watch... so does anyone else experience different? Or is this in line with what you see?
There were massive methodology flaws. First off the poll asked 'how often are you tunneled?', not someone tunneled in your match. That means Tunneling can actually occur up to 4 times more often than his numbers suggest if each Survivor is taking turns being a tunnel victim, or the exact number if somehow only the participant was the only person getting tunneled. Combined with what some people estimated to be ~25% tunnel rates (on themselves only), that means it theoretically can happen every match (25%*4=100%).
Plus for his testing he was far too lose with what he didn't count as tunneling. I remember watching a string of 10 games he did, and 2 of them most certainly included a tunneling Killer that he didn't count for one reason or another, and then counted the 1 that was the obvious Blight at 5-gens styled tunnel.
Finally some people distinguish tunneling into 2 sub-categories: "tunneling off-hook" and "tunneling out of the game". About half of his matches (out of the 10 or so I saw) had "tunneling off-hook", or hooking the Survivor before they had a chance to do a CA post-unhook. So if someone was saying "Killers are tunneling every other game" then that still is an accurate statement as well.
For an example, I answered his poll with 0-20% in 11pm to 6am category, but only because it asked 'how often are you tunneled?' I probably get tunneled 1/8 games (12.5%), but that is also shared with my team in being 4/8 all together. That means I have a more accurate tunnel rate of half my games being ruined because a Killer tunnels with the intent to have one Survivor be their first 3 hooks. That is likely heavily driven due to 'degen-hours', but I gotta say that VPN Killers from 8-timezones out are the larger driver of this behavior. It's like they already know they are doing the wrong thing (VPNing for lagvantage), and intend on taking every advantage they can. It is so bad that I am better served by waiting out a DC timer if a see a Killer with a red-bar. I don't do that, but the game shouldn't be so poorly designed that quitting is the only winning move (for your sanity). -
@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3700472#Comment_3700472
I can't honestly recall the last time I faced all 4 Survivors that were actually my skill level, it's always I am mildly to significantly better than them
It depends how you play. Nothing against you, but from some of your statements, you don't seem like a competitive player. You didn't seem to care when someone leaves. Which is definetly valid way to play DBD, but it just won't throw you against tryhards with this approach.
I was griding for rank 1 last month and did something about 60 +/- 4ks in a row (not really, one game was cheater on The game), games after that were anything but easy. But I think that pushed match making a lot.
If they fixed matchmaking, then I would say this could be a fair point,
Current match making is the fixed one. There was a strict match making at start and a lot of players hated it.
oh shoot they were death hook
Yeah, I have that quite often. Mainly with Legion, because I simply don't track who I hooked.
Skill Level/Competitive - I mean I like to win, but I like to win without 'sweatlording'. I don't like the comp scene whatsoever, because they encourage the worst aspects of the game instead of using their custom rulesets to discourage them. I can easily win Killer with 74% winrate (before the gens pop) so mathematically I should be in the highest MMR.
Fixed Matchmaking - I'm not sure when this was changed. I played actively back with rank based matchmaking, up until about Chucky, then my interest flattened out. I play here and there, but the latest tome is the only one I haven't completed on release since I started playing.
Tracking hooks - Yeah I typically only lose track against the toughest Survivors, because I have too much mental baggage to shoulder in order to ensure I win (These 12 pallets are dropped, and these 5 are unkicked, those 2 gens are the focus of the Survivors, I last saw the 3rd Surv at this area, one has Shadow-Step and Sprint Burst, but the other person has DH+Balanced and I just can't be bothered to track Feng A's cosmetics from Feng B. I hooked Feng 3 times, but idr which one got 1 and which one got 2.).
-
@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3700457#Comment_3700457
The issue I'm not understanding is why a Killer would tunnel only to then go 'oopsie-doopsie I didn't mean it
- unhooked survivor bodyblocking me
- second survivor is hiding
- unhooked survivor started working on gen close to me
- healing under hook when I didn't find anyone else
- second survivor Sprint burst away leaving injured survivor behind
I think you get the point. There is lot of situations, which would be considered tunneling, but are made by survivors, who simply put the killer into that position.
if someone wants to secure pressure, they have to hook
Not really, as long it wastes time of multiple survivors, it gives me pressure. I don't need to hook.
I can still provide 45s of pressure on a Survivor by slugging them
45 seconds of one survivor is worse in my book than making another survivor leaving gen to help.
45 seconds of one survivor is not enough for me to care. I will just hook them whenever I can.
I don't know about you, but limiting options like this for the killer is simply boring.
I consider all gens completing a loss, but that's just me.
That's quitter talk… Definetly an easier approach. I would like to have an option to try get comeback
So no, I don't see the issue with Wicked or Deliverance.
That tells me quite a lot about this conversation. Those two perks are devastating for the killer, because it just removed any pressure.
That is exactly the type of behavior that was meant to be curtailed, and the people refused to learn and adjust their playstyle before complaining about it.
We relearned, just use pop/pain res and nothing else. What an amazing change…
I loved to use eruption/jolt. 3-gen feature made it trash. I can block gen way before 3-gen. So name should be changed at least…
Essentially this doesn't exacerbate or create a new problem that doesn't already exist
Yeah, but it gives player a new reason to do it. It would be quite good way how to win, when you have already lost as survivors. Just hide for few minutes and how killer is not petty enough to deal with it.
Half-tunnel - I see the examples now. Generally I would still consider that enough pressure to be applied, especially since I will be in chase with the next Survivor within seconds. Understandable if you don't like the level of pressure '-45 gen seconds' would provide.
Secure pressure with a hook+Wicked/Deliv - I understand that it might provide pressure, but that's why I call it unsecured. I can't know if they are on comms, or have UB, or have Soul Guard when I brought Devour, or are in range of Exponential. I can hedge my bets on a hook state counting against their total, even if I can't rely on someone else to rescue (from Deliv/Wicked/Luck Offerings+Perks). That's what makes a hook 'secured'. It provides permanent irreparable damage. As far as self-unhooks, they are only an impediment if I was reliant on that hook for pressure. I rarely need the pressure from the hook so much beyond early game. Once we fall into the rhythm of mid-game, I feel secure with the hook stage counting against their max.
45s of pressure - I view things in both real time seconds, and gen seconds. Both sides fight against the clock, which is being wound by the opposition. If I can prevent 45 gen seconds with 10 or fewer of my own, then I probably was in the green net positive, give a rough 4-1 ratio for Survivor against Killer. Even if I hit someone healing under hook and leave them slugged, I denied 45s of gen time (under a theoretical basekit UB).
Gens pop = I lose - It more is like I view gradients of winning (with hatch not counting). Like if you played a total war game where they say 'Pyrrhic Victory/Close Victory/Decisive Victory/Heroic Victory'. Anything past gens popping is a Pyrrhic Victory at best. If I had to kill someone before 2 hooks each, Close Victory at best. If I killed everyone with 2 hooks each before my first kill, then it was a Decisive Victory. If I get all kills by Devour Hope Mori's, I get a Heroic Victory. I aim for the best since I have to make my own fun in the game, as the fun doesn't come naturally.3-gen - Yeah Surge and Eruption are certainly unfortunately impacted disproportionately by the change. I would want those to have something like only counting as a 'half-event' or something.
New reason to be jerks - Fair enough. -
@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3700463#Comment_3700463
I mean Killers can win without any gen regression perks
Either you tunnel, or you have strong killer, or survivors are worse than you.
But when you get into actually equal match making, unless you have killer with fast chases, it will be difficult and getting into 1 gen left without any slowdown is quite stressful thing. That's why I hate hex builds.
What this would do is encourage Killers to only kill once they believe they have already secured their place in the game
You know what? I would be fine with it (most of those perk would need huge buffs), if you show hook stages for each survivor to the killer. Otherwise no.
That's fair that it wouldn't blanket work for all regression perks, but I most certainly think it would work for Ruin (at 200%), PR, and Pop.
Sure, I am fine with those. Those are good enough to take this limitation.
Win without Regression/Tunnel, strong Killer, or weaker Survs - With this matchmaking, the last condition is very common (more than 3/4ths of my matches as Killer have clear weak links). I can't honestly recall the last time I faced all 4 Survivors that were actually my skill level, it's always I am mildly to significantly better than them (mostly 2-3 Survs), or they are mildly to significantly better than me (mostly 1-2 Survs), and rarely in-between. If they fixed matchmaking, then I would say this could be a fair point, but they don't seem to be doing that anytime soon.
Showing Hook stages per Surv - Yeah I think this would be good. I more often have the problem of 'oh shoot they were death hook' than 'garsh darn I don't know who I'm tunneling (it's clearly Feng and Mikaela, fudge anyone maining them, I hate you)'.
@Chocolate_Cosmos said:
What's up with the sudden rise of ideas to punish killers for winning or being in a good spot?
It doesn't punish the 8 hooking winning skilled Killer though. It only punishes the 3 hook tunneling unskilled Killer. It rewards skill, and punishes greed.
-
@VomitMommy said:
I think we made the wrong choice with which nerf to revert. We should have brought it back to 200% instead. That being said, that would mean the removal on death would still apply.
Something we can agree on.
I would much rather have ruin give me more value, before either someone cleanse it, or someone dies. Than keeping it after killing someone.
Gen regression perks should not work once a Survivor is dead
Most slowdown perks would be terrible, mainly when you have it combined with 3-gen feature. Few % won't save them.
Just because it become 3v1, doesn't mean you won. If there is 1 gen left, you still need slowdown perks to win, otherwise one bad chase means you lose.
I would definetly make this perk specific thing, not global feature. It simply affects each perk differently and would make it very hard to balance. They are already quite bad at it.
I mean Killers can win without any gen regression perks, so I don't feel this would change anything for Killers that actually win through skill. If they lose from 1 excessive chase, that tells me that Killer's best couldn't beat the Survivor team's 2nd worst. If a Killer only wins from a 3v1, then they likely faced 3 better Survivors.
What this would do is encourage Killers to only kill once they believe they have already secured their place in the game and can go for the win. If I have 2 people on death hook, then I can advance my win quite easily.That's fair that it wouldn't blanket work for all regression perks, but I most certainly think it would work for Ruin (at 200%), PR, and Pop. The others would probably need more adjustments than that alone, that's why I gave the suggestions for buffs.
-
@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3700411#Comment_3700411
Perhaps I'm not understanding your point. Right now, someone has to pick up, so are Killers actively camping the slugged body waiting to chase someone else in order to not tunnel?
Ok, my bad. I will try to make it clear.
Right now, when for whatever reason I manage to down just unhooked survivor, I would like to slug them. Right now it gives me enough pressure and it gives that survivor chance to keep playing the game. I think that seems reasonable, right?
Issue is with all your explanations of this feature, you always expect killer to return back to hook that survivor, right? Saying 45 seconds is enough time to return, but that doesn't really work, when I am not planning to ever go back there. I want another survivor to leave gen and go help slugged survivor.
This simply doesn't work, when everyone knows that survivor will get picked up no matter what, that's basically half the pressure it gives me. Unless that survivor is dead hook, why would I ever leave the gen, when someone is slugged (as survivor)?
So I could try to slug for a hit on other survivor, then go back and hook that unhooked survivor again, but I don't want to do that. With your feature I am forced to do that. Issue is when I have to do it, there is no reason to wait for anything.
When everyone has unbreakable, the correct thing is to pick and hook a survivor whenever you can. Issue is you don't always have that option.
That can be for several reasons. In end game, if you want comeback, then basic hooking is not an option. You simply have to go for mass slugging. Or just hook and camp to take that 1 kill, which seems boring to me.
So summary:
Right now I am trying to get out of my way to not tunnel, which is done by slugging. Your feature would make me stop caring at all.This is exactly same outcome what 3-gen feature did. You are limiting killers options and most survivors don't like the results, then just call for more nerfs...
Why not take the free hook nonetheless? It forces them to use their perk
Because it gives me almost 0 pressure. Noone is needed to save that survivor, if I hook them. You see the issue? Same as CoH etc.
When I slug them, either someone else have to go into basement to pick them up, which is more pressure than hooking them, or they have to use unbreakable → forces them to use their perk.If I hook them, only correct play would be to stay around and not let them escape basement → go for hard tunnel.
Its hilarious how many people think you won't just pick up and get a free hook (and sometimes a late pallet throw) as a result.
You have never played Twins against Power struggle, have you? That's fun experience…
It is only a threat in concert with Background Player/hovering Survivors
Are you soloQ player only? Because this is very easy to get for SWF…
Only relevant in concert with corners.
Indoor maps work. Also stacking those Oak offerings work.
I just explained in the previous post that that is holding the game hostage and reportable/bannable
That is lot of work (for me), I will rather be against any feature that promotes those actions. It's highly unlikely they would be banned anyway.
Feature that would lead to banning people, is not good feature.
Slugging comparisons - For both versions if someone wants to secure pressure, they have to hook. For both versions, someone picking up is almost always more efficient gameplay, and can put the Killer at risk for a reverse snowball. For downing an unhooked Survivor, it still results in the person playing the game, it just doesn't require an altruistic pickup. The issue I'm not understanding is why a Killer would tunnel only to then go 'oopsie-doopsie I didn't mean it'. If I'm going back to hook, I can chase the rescuer instead. Where is the scenario where I need to slug someone that I don't plan on hooking (unless I'm just not planning on killing anyone)?
I view pressure in two camps, secured and unsecured. Anything short of a hook is unsecured. Injuries are unsecured, slugging is unsecured, gen kicks are unsecured, and hooks/basekit kill methods are the only way to secure that pressure to ensure a response is required. I can still provide 45s of pressure on a Survivor by slugging them, and their team can shorten that timer if they pick them up. I don't require a hook in this theoretical.Currently people aren't leaving gens to pick people up until well later in the recovery, because it seems like the Killer is hovering around them. If everyone has unbreakable the best option is to hook people, but only within the 45s timer if you suspect selfish gameplay. That is easily accomplished on near every Killer unless I decided to teleport cross map as Freddy.
As far as endgame is concerned, if I didn't bring an endgame perk like Blood Warden, I consider all gens completing a loss, but that's just me. If I brought all perks to deal with early/mid-game, then I should win before mid-game ends. If I brought Blood Warden, then that's my win condition in endgame. Not only that, but people will predominantly crawl in endgame instead of recover, so it still helps to slug in mass during endgame even with basekit UB.As far as the anti-3 gen feature, I haven't triggered it once when I wasn't playing overly campy in my 3-gen. I haven't had a single game's outcome changed, or my playstyle altered, as a result of it. From people complaining about it, they included recordings of their gameplay that showed them playing gen defense, or camping 3-gens, or kicking without a gen perk when they had a Survivor on screen. That is exactly the type of behavior that was meant to be curtailed, and the people refused to learn and adjust their playstyle before complaining about it.
Not take the free hook or two, it gives almost no pressure - No one is needed to save the Survivor, but they still are 1/3rd the way to their death. That's plenty of pressure for me. So no, I don't see the issue with Wicked or Deliverance. Plus slugging them still provides 45s of pressure on 1 Survivor at the minimum. I would agree that slugging wouldn't be worth it in basement because of the time to walk in and out, but not hooking someone into a Wicked/Deliv hop off hook.
Never play Twins - Naw in general I like everyone in the match to have fun. I don't even have fun playing Twins, so why would I play a Killer just to annoy 4 other people? I can do that by playing Blight or Wesker and have fun myself at the same time. I do play them for tomes and dailies, but even then I can just down with Charlotte against the singular PS player.
Pickups not a threat/only play soloq? - I'm about 50% Killer, 40% soloq, 10% (uncoordinated) SWF. Last stats I recall soloq was 60% minimum, and 4-man SWF was 10% maximum. Plus that requires the SWF to be coordinated, which is also a tall order. This not only requires them to be coordinated, it also requires them not to pump gens instead. If they are hovering around me like flies, they gave me a free win from 33% gen slowdown (2 on gens, 1 in chase, 1 following at their best case times).Corners/Indoor maps too - Indoor maps have plenty of hooks. That 3 sabo example I gave was on RPD. There is the hook in main, up the stairs, in the side hallway on the east side, in the lobby on the west side, in the hallway on the west side. That map has way too many hooks as is (for sabo to be a playstyle). The worst case scenario is probably the front gate on the east side where the gen is, and even then you have the alley hook and the hook that spawns at the stairwell (either downstairs or upstairs), so still 2 minimum hooks. Midwich also got fixed and has 3 hooks available from the bathroom. I'm not sure which indoor map is a problem for an aware Killer player. As far as Oaks, there still is a minimum hook count, so that (IME) still has 2 hooks from every corner. That means I had to kill 2 players already from them comp cornering in that same corner, and now when I try to kill the third it finally becomes a problem.
Hold Hostage and reporting - That's fair that it is too cumbersome to report for some people. I know when someone is petty enough blatantly cheat or hold the game hostage or do anything else clearly uncool (and report worthy), that I get annoyed enough to start up the recording and prep the report. Also I don't think this would lead to more instances of people doing this then they already do. I know when I've had the free time against Nurses tunnel at 5 gens that I've hid as long as possible, while still touching gens to not technically count as holding the game hostage. Essentially this doesn't exacerbate or create a new problem that doesn't already exist. I don't get this happening to me as Killer (only the blatant cheaters), because I don't act like a sweatlord to people. -
@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3700257#Comment_3700257
There is no reason to wait for a tunneling Killer in hooking them currently, so this isn't a meaningful point.
There is, because right now I am not forced to be tunneling killer in that situation. I am fully willing to let another survivor save them and recover, it gives me time and survivor gets chance to play. Win win
If I will have to return, I have no reason to wait and just tunnel them.
but don't list a single one
I have talked about this point in multiple comments already, do I really have repeat myself?
- if survivor gets downed under pallet (pointing) and I know there are background players, I am not picking them up.
- Survivors dying in corners → I am not picking them up
- survivor running into basement → probably Wicked → I am not picking them up
- survivors under pallet with Power struggle
- sabo squads
So wait, people who we expect to lose are going to hide in order to surrender?
No, they will hide until killer surrenders, which is luckily not an option now, so it is unlikely to happen.
Tunneling - Perhaps I'm not understanding your point. Right now, someone has to pick up, so are Killers actively camping the slugged body waiting to chase someone else in order to not tunnel? That's what it sounds like from my read. You currently have to return in about 30s because someone will pick them up otherwise, and this would merely extend that to 45s instead. Adding an extra 50% time to respond gives me more time to handle other issues and return in time.
Repeat points - When they have already been refuted, yeah they aren't in the list anymore.
- Background Player - Fair this perk should probably be shifted to speed boost after the pickup completes.
- Corners - There are 2-3 hooks available in the vast majority of maps from normal corners. Only edge case scenarios like Temple of Purgation with basement in shack are the outliers that can be used for this point, but they are rare even in comparison to slugging in general.
- Wicked - Why not take the free hook nonetheless? It forces them to use their perk, and IIRC someone told me they don't use Wicked because it doesn't grant basekit BT, so that is a free 2nd free hook after that.
- Power Struggle - It is only a threat in concert with Background Player/hovering Survivors. If you pick up instantly it denies PS, and even then it often is better to kill the threat of the pallet and pick up regardless. Its hilarious how many people think you won't just pick up and get a free hook (and sometimes a late pallet throw) as a result.
- Sabo - Only relevant in concert with corners. There are so many hooks in modern maps, that I have sabo'd 3 different hooks the Killer was heading towards and they still were able to hook. With corners you can sabo the 2-3 hooks reachable, and that is the only time it can be a threat.
Hide for Killer to surrender - I just explained in the previous post that that is holding the game hostage and reportable/bannable. "If it's the latter, we have rules against 'holding the game hostage' for that."
-
@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3700025#Comment_3700025
Slugging pressure is unsecured in both versions, with or without basekit UB, but with basekit it makes the match more predictable.
It's simple, right now slugging is simply alternative to tunneling. Right now both gives pressure, slugging already gives less pressure than tunneling, but I just think it is better for survivors. That's why I do it.
If you nerf slugging with basekit unbreakable, I know that pressure from that action will be lower and I will be forced to return anyway. So there is not reason to wait with hooking.
Another issue is DS (if they actually buff it). Even when I know from their actions they have it, I don't have an option to slug them and go back later, becasuse DS timer is longer than your basekit unbreakable. So best play would be just pick them up, eat the DS and hard tunnel them.
At what world is slugging considered worse than tunneling? Slugging gives me an alternative what to do, if you nerf it and I get into position of tunneling, why the hell would I bother with slugging?
it would necessitate massive nerfs to implement
There are things where only asnwer is slugging, if you nerf slugging, all those things should get nerfed. With basekit unbreakable, it would be very easy to get killer into lose lose situation, which is not good.
I don't see how this would be the case.
because it promotes hiding and that is annoying
Also there are missions to get kills / escapes, escape through hatch etc. all those could be denied in many games. I don't consider 10/15 minutes to be that long.
I just think using only time limit is really lazy approach, which could backfire.
Basekit UB buffs tunneling - Slugging would remain an alternative, but the Killer has a more normal range of expected stand up times from now. I can still get plenty done in 45s and make my way back to re-down/hook someone if needed. There is no reason to wait for a tunneling Killer in hooking them currently, so this isn't a meaningful point. Even with DS, I know I'm safe as long as I tunnel slugged them more than 5s after their basekit BT ran out, and return before they can pick themselves up. I can even wait 5-10 extra seconds if I wasn't sure on the timing, hovering over their corpse, and can just re-down them if they pick themselves up. If this makes Soul Guard meta, then good, we will see less Adrens and DHs, and it is easy to counter.
Nerfs to counterbalance basekit UB - You mention "There are things where only asnwer is slugging, if you nerf slugging, all those things should get nerfed.", but don't list a single one. We've already know we disagree, but this just sounds like the reasoning is 'cuz I said so'. Can you list any of this extensive list of actions that can't be dealt with within 45s (or my preferred 30 to 95%, 60 total to self-pickup)? The DS example was inaccurate, so I'm confused what other examples simply can't be solved by locking in the pressure with a hook.
10-15m Surrender resulting in hiding - So wait, people who we expect to lose are going to hide in order to surrender? Or is the claim they will hide to bore the opposition into surrendering. If it's the latter, we have rules against 'holding the game hostage' for that. If it's the former, wouldn't we want the timer shorter then? As far as tomes, a surrender can be tied to auto-completing the opponent's endgame tomes (as a kill/hook/hooks remaining or simply 100% completion).
As far as match duration, my normal (no basekit slowdown) matches only last about 10 minutes to reach endgame, and as long as 15 minutes if they had basekit slowdown. Any longer and the Killer is actively tormenting the players, or the Survivors are actively hiding to hold the game hostage. Looking at the forums, we have this thread where most people landed upon 15 minutes, so I'd be winning to entertain the notion that includes finishing gens and Survivors greeding for a 4-out, or finally having the last die/get hatch. This would be an individual quit, but are you going to quit if you have a reasonable chance of turning things around? I wouldn't quit as Killer if I had NWO/BW/NOED, and I wouldn't quit if I wanted a few more hook saves or heals for my tome (or to rescue my friend and die for them). Otherwise I would hard escape as Survivor, or realize I have no chance and clean up pallets/walls as Killer for extra BP. It saves people from the worst time of salt being rubbed in the wound lasting any longer than it needs to.
(Edit: forgot the hyperlink to the other thread for game length estimates) -
@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3699728#Comment_3699728
Remove heal prevention - The Killer can still hook them though
this has nothing to do with killer, that's simply so you wouldn't be able to "force" 1 minute slugging and ignore your teammates effort. For plot twist, it should be changes so your recovering (holding M1) has priority over others (kinda like holding shift now, but limited without Plot twist).
Plus I can't tell you how many times my foolish soloq teammates try to run across the map to heal me when I clearly Plot Twisted.
Let's be honest, showing your teammates perks should be main priority for DBD in my opinion. I don't think any other thing would help soloQ more right now.
You don't even need to show it in lobby. You can already see your perks when you press ESC, which I don't really know why, but just replace it with 3 builds (your teammates). So at start of the game, I can quickly check it. This wouldn't allow lobby dodging, but still help a lot.
It does far more good than harm
Not really. It would simply replace one annoying thing killer can do with annoying thing survivors can do. How is that better?
Also about why it would increase tunneling a lot, which I don't think is good thing.
Right now, if I get into tunneling situation made by survivors (body blocking, healing under hook, rescuer hiding etc.) I always go for down, but I prefer slugging over hooking again, so that survivor has chance to play more.
Do you think anyone is going to care, when that survivor has unbreakable? Your expectation is killer will go back and hook, but I wouldn't want to hook that survivor. If I am forced to hook, why wouldn't I do it asap and just "tunnel" him.
This feature would do a lot of harm, you just don't see it.Well, I don't see almost any good it would do…. Everything good it could make, can be achieved with give up feature I mentioned. That can create a lot of good for players with little to no harm.
Preventing basekit unbreakable from abusing would need tons of nerfs. which I don't think players want and I bet we would see tons of crying for tunneling. Even more than now, which is hard to do.
having a surrender option after say 10-15 minutes
No, that's terrible idea.
There should be strict definitions of when you can use it. Just time can basically deny playing for other side, which is not good. There should be time for people to finish achievements / challenges in any game.Definitions should be combination of exact situation and time. So 1 minute slugging for example. Both sides have option to prevent it.
The problem with removing heal prevention is that both versions have someone griefing their team as the consequence. The benefit of a bleedout surrender grief is that the person quits and you get a bot. The benefit of a no heal grief is you can force someone to AFK in the match and not meaningfully participate… I don't think the no heal option is as beneficial.
Show perks on Escape menu - Agreed. And can we also show the Killer's perks and add-ons once dead in soloq. There is no reason to hide the perks against someone that isn't teamed with anyone else.
More good than harm - I'm not sure what annoying thing Survivors can do you are talking about here. If you were talking about a surrender, that still yields a bot. That's better than someone who Kobe's to end the match or AFKs or only opens chests while walking the rest of the match.
As far as tunneling, I disagree that it would increase by a lot. It would increase from 20% to 25% tops, or a multiplicative 25% increase. I would need to see that increase by a multiplicative 50 or 100% to cross the line into 'a lot' territory. Slugging pressure is unsecured in both versions, with or without basekit UB, but with basekit it makes the match more predictable. The Killer knows they will get up in a fixed timeframe, instead of 16s (Exponential) or 26s (Unbreakable) or 32s (Soul Guard) or never.
I also disagree that it would necessitate massive nerfs to implement, as it already has a minimal impact on the majority of matches except as a tool to grief.
Surrender unlocked at 10-15m being a bad idea - I don't see how this would be the case. Even if I have excellent pressure on the Survivors such that they only have 1 person working on gens, that still takes 90*5s, or 7.5 minutes, and 9 minutes if I use Pain Res. By 10 minutes, the Survivors should know if the match is a lost cause and not worth continuing, or the Killer is just getting bullied or held hostage by stealthing Survs or cheaters. I gave 15m as an alternative, because it is fair to say some Killers might have built in slowdown to take longer than this theoretical 9 minute maximum, or Survivors reasonably hiding against a Plague/Oni/Myers/etc. in power form.
-
@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3698525#Comment_3698525
I (nearly) never have this problem as Killer
Never? Really? Have you not played after Boil Over buff?
Or you mean recently?
It's not hard to create as SWF on some maps. I had it happen on The Game few times. Really annoying, I lost most of those games, because survivors noticed and always run into that corner. Really annoying.
I bet accurance would increase, if Unbreakable was basekit, simply because it nerfs only counterplay. There would be nothing killer can do about it, which doesn't sound good to me.I don't see why we would need to remove Shift preventing healing though.
If you had feature to give up after X amount of time, then holding shift would make it impossible for other survivors to prevent it.
I don't think it would affect more than 2% of matches total in changing the result
That doesn't mean not affecting the gameplay. If feature changes whole meta and playstyles, then it affects normal gameplay. Basekit unbreakable would make this 100%. I think you underestimate how much slugging would decrease on value, but mostly it would make survivors to force those situations.
It wouldn't be hard to create lose lose situations for the killer.So unless you want to nerf / remove all possible situations survivors are able to create, where this could be abused, there is no way I would ever want to see this in DBD.
Give up feature would be way better for both sides, without actually affecting gameplay for anyone.
Not having a lack of hook problem - The only time during the Boil Over buff it was a problem was when 4 people brought it and map offered RPD when we had a third story Library (without the guaranteed hooks). Even when that was at its peak, it wouldn't happen more than 1 in 10 of my Killer games. Same with Eyrie, once they added the fixed hooks (2 up top for Eyrie) the problem was deleted. On most maps these days you can get 2-3 hooks from a corner. That means you basically have a 50-50 of not having enough hooks if and only if they all comp corner on that same corner. Like I said, I plan out my final hook location, and take a further hook if it would prevent a gate/corner hook from being usable.
I don't know what 'Accurance' is.
Remove heal prevention - The Killer can still hook them though, so I don't understand the issue. Even if someone is healing the Survivor on the ground, that doesn't mean the person isn't getting BMed, and could open up more abuse for working with Killer. Plus I can't tell you how many times my foolish soloq teammates try to run across the map to heal me when I clearly Plot Twisted. This would deny that perk usage as well, so this change would be far more bad than good.
Affect normal gameplay - I still don't think it would impact the majority of games (>95%). It does far more good than harm, and we could even do something like Mangled/Broken/Exhausted (any individually, or multiple in combination) for X duration (or different durations if multiple) after a self-pickup. That way it both informs the Killer, and also has a cost to further incentivize Altruism. I hesitate to put Hindered on that list, but maybe 10% for 10s would be fine. (Still allowing for Fast Vaults, but enough to lose in most loops.)
I fully support both sides having a surrender option after say 10-15 minutes (WIP estimate, with arguable earlier conditions such as a Kill at 4+ gens for Survivors, or no gen progression for Killer after 3-5 minutes, to prevent cheaters holding people hostage from the onset). -
@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3698388#Comment_3698388
If it would take an ally 16s to heal them up, that would save 13 gen seconds in total.
You are completely ignoring time survivor needs to actually run there. SoloQ often has multiple survivors run there instead.
There is a quite good chance survivors will stop working on gens in advance, while I can return to hit them, or simply pick that survivor up, which wasted quite a lot of time from that survivor.
All of that is simply not valid, when everyone for 100% know, they are not needed there. Doesn't matter, if you run there or not, that survivor doesn't need help. Just that makes it so huge buff. I believe this would increase "gen rushing" (just effectiveness on gens) overall.
I'll repeat the offer I gave to the other person, and if you find a streamer who needed to 'slug in excess of 45s to secure a win' twice in their last 10 games, I'll concede this point that slugging is actively necessary
I am not sure, if it was 2 in 10 games, but when Otz was doing streaks he had several games, where slugging definetly won those games, mainly during end game with gates powered, you don't have time to hook in that situation and slugging is only way for comeback.
And how often people get bleed out? Like really. Is it even 1 in 10? 1 in 100?
I would manage to make more killers bleed me out, if we play actively trying to annoy the killer whole game. That's simple payback from the killer, understandable in my opinion.
Creating impossible hook situations etc, I would manage to get this 10 out of 10 games, but that's actively trying to get bleed out, so not sure how that counts.
But it's really rare for me at least to get bleed out, because I simply don't do things (while playing survivor) that annoy me as killer main. Simple as that.
As you said, it wastes time for the killer too, so unless they have reason, they won't do it.
Most of bleed outs were by Pigs anyway and that's more rare now after her changes.
Trying to say basekit unbreakable won't affect normal gameplay is same joke as 3-gen feature doesn't affect normal gameplay. That's just not thinking of consequences.
Such a minority doesn't need feature that would affect one of main strategies. If you think it's waste of time, then let survivors give up after 1 minute of constant slugging and replace them with bot. Fixed for survivor and you also punish the killer by dealing with bot…
It won't affect game balance, killer won't be able to waste much of your time and survivors will be more motivated to help their teammates.
You would need to remove impossible heal with holding shift tho, but I don't think that's an issue.
P1 (Slugging and Altruism) - As far as slugs not needing help specifically, that's true, but it is more time efficient to provide assistance. Even if we included movement, the floored Survivor gains ~1/3rd recovery progress compared to healing, so it only reduces altruism's effectiveness by 2/3*travel time. Even if the Survivor ran 10s, the slug recovered 10/45s, or 2/9ths, and then the ally picks them up in 12.44s (16*7/9 remaining), for a net 22.44s. If the Killer is still busy with the other Survivor they decided to chase instead, then they can heal to full on the spot as well, and spread or duo a gen as needed (heal or no).
Saying it would increase gen rushing (or as I prefer to say GensB4Frenz, or delaying altruism), is a fair complaint. However I think as long as we make altruism more efficient (than self-pickups), and make healing the best option, then it shouldn't be an issue. There is a possible issue to address with making 'injured' more costly, but I wouldn't want anything like gen times to be affected. Probably something like Exhaustion doesn't recover while injured, alongside basekit Self-Care at 25% (64s heal), and make the perk buffed up to 45% (just enough to make altruistic healing still better). All that said, that is a massive sidetrack into off topic territory. If you want to talk about this specifically, just make another thread about making injuries more harmful and feel free to ping me.P2 - Otz streaks specifically, I thought was 2 in 50, or 4 tops (for Unknown), but to be fair I don't fully recall. If you had a specific consecutive string of games (eg. 16-25 on X Killer) then fair enough.
How often are bleedouts? - In my games (past midnight), greater than 1 in 10. I used to work nights, so late night was the only time I had to play on my days off. Unfortunately the greatest swath of degenerates and lowlives play at that timeslot, and purposely make the Survivor experience as miserable as possible. Every game is a bleedout Killer, or a tunnel at 5 gens Killer against clear soloq teams, or a VPN Killer from 8+ timezones away, or a comp pretender. Seeing the worst people the game has to offer makes the flaws of the game quite apparent. I don't have as much to complain about on Killer end because most of those are skill issues. For Killer though I hate map offerings, Borgo scratchmarks/blood (and Ormond too, but that seems to be a 'just me' problem), people playing without altruism, and more, but I never lack agency as Killer.
Impossible to hook situations - I'm not sure I'm reading this right, but I (nearly) never have this problem as Killer. I view the final hook stage and its hook destruction as a macro resource though, so I plan out not final hooking near gates or corners. This basically means it only happens when multiple members of a Survivor team comp corner on the exact same corner on death hook. It happens often enough on separate corners, but nearly never on the same one.
Basekit UB affecting normal gameplay - I mean it would marginally in edge cases, sure, but I don't think it would affect more than 2% of matches total in changing the result. That's what I meant if I wasn't clear. It would have the largest impact of bringing 60% Killer wins down to 58% Killer wins (if we blindly assume kill rate equals winrate). The remaining 58% of wins would remain wins, and the remaining 40% losses aren't becoming a new 'super loss' where the Killer player starts getting punched in the face by their monitor.Surrender feature instead - I would want both personally. Allow Survivor and Killer to surrender after X happens without a DC penalty, but also have a basekit UB. I don't see why we would need to remove Shift preventing healing though. If the Killer hooked, the Surv could have gave up on hook by Kobe-ing regardless, so I think reaching a straight minute of bleedout would still be fine enough if you can see the Killer never plans on killing you outside of bleedouts.
-
@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3697759#Comment_3697759
So we loosely agree bleedouts should be bannable
Neither should be bannable. That's simply overreaction.
It's fine to introduce prevention systems, if BHVR consider it an issue, but simply banning people is really lazy and really bad idea.
Imagine not being able to ban cheaters properly and you ban for bleeding out / hiding instead. That would be pathetic.
Pressure is obtained, yes, but not secured until the person is hooked.
Not really, point of slugging is not bleed out of course, it can lead it tho. Main point of slugging is to gain time to hook survivors overall. You don't always go back for that survivor and there can be multiple of reasons for it.
Slugged survivor can't work on gen and another survivor has to run towards that survivor to pick them up. That simply has to happen unless they have perk to pick themselves. Survivors often stop working on gens and run there in advance, which is wasted time, if I would actually go back and pick up. There wouldn't be a reason to even try going to help that survivor, when you know for 100% they can do it themselves. That's why Unbreakable is considered to be very good perk.
Slugging is either way of getting pressure by some killers. Any killer can do it to get pressure, but most of them return to hook them. It is also an answer to several situations survivors can create. Mainly impossible hooking locations, or other survivors saving.
Or new case, if I see survivor running into the basement for no reason, I am not hooking them there, because unless I am planning to tunnel them, which is likely to be difficult, they are most likely using Wicked to self-unhook.
I don't think game is so unbalanced that you would need basekit unbreakable for everyone. Your reasoning is strategy that you don't like, it's not fun for you. It's not because it is too strong. I don't think fun aspect is reason for such a major buff. That's why they introduced mori system to basically balance it for both sides and it didn't end well.
nothing that a theoretical basekit UB would get someone up with
Same thing is before. Basekit UB nerfs slugging hard, because it lowers pressure by huge amount. It's exactly same situation as we had with CoH and people didn't understood why it is so broken for several months. Some still don't…
It's way better (for killer) when another survivor needs to included for any action. CoH made it everyone could self-heal, which is way more effective than standard healing. Basekit unbreakable is doing exactly same.
Their recent designs and reworks other than Billy have been questionable at best
at least something we can agree on
P1- Ok I misread your point for that section.
P2 (Pressure of Slugging)- 45s is a long time to be on the ground doing nothing to progress the game. If it would take an ally 16s to heal them up, that would save 13 gen seconds in total. It still is more efficient to altruistically pickup in such a scenario. (That's also why I think the 30s to 95%, 30s more to self-pickup is better, as it further incentivizes altruism in a predictable amount of time.)
My reasoning isn't that it is simply something I don't like. I also don't think slugging (in excess of 45s) is happening to secure a victory in any more than 2% of matches tops. To solve a griefing issue and not significantly affect winrates would probably be the right type of change we should make. I'll repeat the offer I gave to the other person, and if you find a streamer who needed to 'slug in excess of 45s to secure a win' twice in their last 10 games, I'll concede this point that slugging is actively necessary with no changes needed in its current state. (Although the same qualifiers apply, I'll try to short version them here: Slugging for the 4k isn't securing a win, they already won with 3 kills. You could cheese this argument and use a Knockout Bleedout main I'd call you out on it, but still concede the point.)
P3 (Nothing a basekit UB would get people up with/'heavy slugging') - The pressure was always loosely applied outside of 4 slug circimstances, which are pretty much only done by Killers that were going to win the match regardless. That's why I've been referring to slugs as 'unsecured pressure' and hooks as 'secured pressure'. The Killer is gambling that the person doesn't have UB/Exponential/Soul Guard (if the Killer brought hexes)/Plot Twist flop timer (technically you know they did it, but its whether or not you can come back in time)/Adrenaline/Syringed by a teammate. None of those can work to get the person off of hook, but can work to get them off of the ground. I view it not too dissimilar to getting someone from healthy to injured. You can capitalize on the injured person, but it can still be undone if left unattended. There can be value in slugging/injuring someone, but it comes with its own set of risks. Getting a hook has nearly none of those risks and greater rewards.Also the problem with CoH was how it could force a Killer to spend 20s (not providing active pressure on the map) to get rid of something that only took the Survivor 14s to setup, and only 16-21s to heal (depending on which one it was, all of which more efficient than altruistic healing). I think if CoH was Self-Care speeds (~46s self-heal) with only an altruistic boost, it wouldn't have been a problem to begin with. Layered problems all down the line in its old form.
-
@TheArbiter said:
Im confused by what you are saying because she appears from her blink before she is able to M1
When a Nurse blinks, you can't reaction DH. You need to predict. That means the Blink actually has the Killer show up and M1 before the Survivor can react.
On the Killer end, you see yourself blink, reach your destination, swing, then they take an injury. On the Survivor side, you see the Killer start the animation to blink and you take damage before she even shows up at your location. -
@ScottJund said:
Hey guys I'm doing a bit of a study about tunneling and people's perceptions of tunneling and hoped the official forums could also help me out in collecting data. Its very simple, and shouldn't take more than 30 seconds.
Thanks!
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSeyqBc92aMITRXDlSDXZHT6auH6BZnBCmF9F6V6AmPM2HeZvg/viewform
I think one aspect of the questionnaire that isn't addressed is how often tunneling happens in your matches. You ask how often someone personally is tunneled, but not how often their matches involve tunneling. All too often its the baby Meg that gets tunneled at 5 gens, and it still ruins my match even when I'm not the primary tunnel victim. If it happens 20% to me because I'm the baby Meg, that could mean it is as low as 20% of matches (as I'm the only one getting tunneled) or as high as 80% of matches (as all 4 Survs take turns being tunneled at that theoretical 20% personal rate).
-
@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3697112#Comment_3697112
what would drive anyone to be so petty as to waste 4 minutes of their own,
I am petty for sure and I don't really waste my time. I usually watch something on second monitor meanwhile.
I have simple rule for myself. I never do things I wouldn't want others do. Then when someone do something I don't like, I do something they don't like.
Yes, I am really petty person.
I won't bleed out someone just because they did save with Background player. It's a perk. What I talked about is full group of players where their whole gole is to never get hooked. Dying under pallet on purpose, multiple flashlights / sabo builds. I will bleed them all out, if possible, because it's annoying for me and it's more effective than trying to hook them.
Are you alright IRL?
No. I am playing Dead by Daylight. Like what did you expect?
bleedouts should be bannable
There are situations, where bleeding survivor is only option other than letting them wiggle out. That survivor crawled into the corner fully aware I am not able to hook them, why should I not let them bleed out?
Survivors pointing and dying under pallet on purpose. I risk pallet save, if I pick them up, why not just slug everyone? It's quite effective way to win.
Oni? It's quite normal for me to snowball with multiple survivors downed and I am not always able to find everyone…
Should hiding as survivor be bannable? They are wasting my time too…
Fix to bleedout is not banning people, that's opposite of smart thing to do. Just create give up button under specific conditions for both sides. That would make it impossible for other side to waste time, if you don't want to.
As far as 'push tunneling even more', that's just a self-report to not trying to learn to improve.
When I said, I am tunneling survivors? When I said it's only viable strategy to win?
You think nerfing other strategies is not going to push tunneling more? If so, then you are really disconnected from reality. Are you alright IRL?
Nerfing other strategies makes tunneling stand out even more. That's not hard to understand. So players who want to win are going to use it more.
I don't really like tunneling, so I usually play Hit&run killers, or killers around slugging. So Wraith, Legion, Skull merchant, Oni, Twins.
It is possible to play (and win) without tunneling
never said it's impossible… but nice try
See my previous posts in this thread on Oni math to see why that's objectively false
It just seems like you don't understand how slugging works and what created pressure from it.
There are survivors, who I am not interested in ever picking up. Whole pressure is from making another survivor run there to pick them up. That's not really the case, when everyone has unbreakable, is it?With Oni using Ultimate weapon, I can manage to slug all 4 survivors, or having 1 hooked. It's not that rare, Oni is really good killer for this.
Also normal Myers isn't even slugging heavy unless the Killer player is playing him to lose.
If you never slug as Myers or Plague, you are not playing efficiently. Whenever I find two survivors together and manage to down one of them fast enough, I am going to slug them to get as much value from my power as possible.
If you don't use your power properly, then you are playing to lose.
Imagine going and picking up every survivor you manage to down as Twins. They would be terrible. I highly doubt that rework will get live, or it will kill Twins with tons of nerfs btw….
Petty -fair
Playing DBD so not alright -fair
Bleedouts vs hiding - So we loosely agree bleedouts should be bannable. Survivors can be banned for hiding and not doing gens if you provide evidence (specifically 10 minutes of gens not being touched). I was merely recommending the equivalent evidence for Killer bans. (as a refresher, the evidence I suggested was sitting under hook for long enough with a Killer refusing to hook the Surv) Alternatively we can take the opposite route and remove bans for hiding to maintain parity. I do agree with a surrender option for both sides regardless though.
Push tunneling more - My bad, I had Otz's video in my mind where he lied about spread pressure being nerfed, when CoH and Self-Care are butchered, so I misattributed what you were saying to be hit and run stocks are down. Yes, by virtue of say 5 options splitting a pool of cash, and reducing it to 4 (or more accurately 4.5) options, it would raise the pool for the remaining categories.
Win without tunneling - My bad again, mixed up threads and thought you were someone that was saying that you can't win without tunneling as was being said in all too many other threads.
Oni Slugging - This is where I would disagree. Pressure is obtained, yes, but not secured until the person is hooked. A hook secures the level of pressure, a slug has too many variables to consider it as free. I kill someone hooked in 2 minutes (normal case) longest with the pressure granted. I kill someone slugged in 4 minutes (normal case) shortest with that pressure granted. Plus the value of getting people bleeding orbs sooner, and having a partially filled power gauge helps keep the power active nearly all of the relevant moments of the match.
Myers Slugging - I specifically said 'slugging heavy'. There can be slugging involved, but nothing that a theoretical basekit UB would get someone up with. Also using Oblivious/Undetectable perks means the normal T3 TR no longer has its drawback. Also Myers has a greater problem if people start getting picked up, as now you have injured Survs that have no desire to heal since you are currently T3. Having T3 downtime increases the time Survivors waste on healing, and is key to my many of my victories as Myers. Essentially if I can snowball on two healthy Survivors as Myers, I know I have time to down the 2nd before someone could pickup the 1st. Then by going back to the 1st, I can hook them in the direction of the 2nd before they could get picked up also (or I could pickup and hook the 2nd in the direction of the 1st if I downed them quick enough).
Twins - I didn't say anything on them, because I have no clue what BHVR is doing with them. Their recent designs and reworks other than Billy have been questionable at best, from free hits with Chucky to whatever they are doing to Sadako to whatever happened to Trickster. I just don't want to break my brain peering into that abyss.
-
@FatAngryB said:
I knew I'd incur some salt over this post, but my god…this is simply delicious. And not a single person disproved the truth of my point, either. That Deep Wounds is inherently useless. It serves no genuine purpose other than a visual effect as a reminder of survivors to heal themselves, and little else. Self entitlement truly runs deep in this game, but judging by the kind of primary threads that take up the most attention, I'm not surprised. At all.
Yes, the game was harder and required you to think more. 'Poor you'. You couldn't just find a corner to cry in and whimper as you healed/mended while the Killer chases after someone else. Truly do none of you have any shame…? You have perks that block auras, self healing capabilities and now a buffed stun perk. On top of that you can set totems that hide auras and reveal auras to Survivors. Ever since I returned to this game, the tea-bagging has become fully entrenched, nothing but trolls while killers feel like they were castrated and watered down to be completely boring or hamstrung by their own powers in many ways.
So you're absolutely correct I will make threads like this. The truth must be spoken, regardless of what you feel towards me. And if I have to laugh at you as I speak it, I gladly will. Unfortunately I must 'regrettably' inform you, that you aren't the only human on earth playing this game. And your feelings are not the primary focus of attention that solely matters & damn the rest.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3697409#Comment_3697409
@mizark: I read patch notes from time to time, granted I don't have the interest to scroll over the last four years of notes but I have kept myself in the loop of things. To put it simply, MMR doesn't mean anything to me, because it doesn't reflect on the player's skill floor level, just their frequency. I win more matches than I lose, I only lose matches to those who extremely abuse the system and gibber on Discord while doing it. Against any genuine team, 8/10 matches I win fair and squared.
I often find myself losing matches to people who abuse the system, because they are essentially using extremely aggressive tactics that demand fill focus of meta perk use, of which I will admit I am loathe to on certain killers as all it does is end up turning into a game of either slugging or tunnelling all the way to China.
Deep Wounds, did all of those things, by downing people. That was the inherent point of its design. You can't heal if you're downed. You can't do totems if you're downed. You can't do gens if you are downed. If it SLOWED down while running, that's acceptable, but stopping entirely meant it was heavily abused. On Legions release, I never got any kills from Deep Wound then, and would not now. So it doesn't matter what the description says because it's entirely ineffective anyways.
So either BUFF Deep Wound, or REMOVE it. There's no genuine point to using it. I can chase you, grind your bones into paste and hook your gangly corpse for the Entity and not even remember it exists. That's how relavently useful it is at this point.
It fulfills its intended purpose, by forcing the Survivors to slow down if they want to progress the game. It takes 12s to mend a Deep Wound, and it must be done before 20s is made towards progressing the game. As is, its perfectly fine.
As far as the terminology things I commented on, that was to help you not lose face/credibility in future discussions if you are engaging in good faith. People will dismiss you as being ignorant with false info if you say things like 'Bronze/Iri' in relation to someone's skill level or competency. -
@Nick said:
Has there ever anything been said by the developers about the last 2 survivors hiding, not touching any generators? I'm not trying to be funny but legit curious about their opinion. Has any idea been put forward? Or is there a reason why this situation is still in the game?
Because the 3-gen kicking, kicking, kicking, kicking meta got tackled relatively fast and the game even received a whole new mechanic for it. But when playing killer I still have matches where I'm playing hide and seek with the last 2 survivors for 30 minutes because they're both waiting for eachother to get found, to get that free hatch escape.
Surely there could be some Killer Instinct mechanic be implemented when not getting any Objective/Altruism points for a certain amount of time? Even the afk-crows have been in the game since launch, but people crouching around the edge of the map is still a thing. Even after 8 years.
I don't want to be forced to quit a game where I'm being held hostage because I wanted to play a few games of dead by daylight before work, just to be kept in the same game for up to an hour.
Yep this was the standard before the gen kick limit, so I don't know how to prove it now if you somehow reach 8 regression events on gens now.
The old method was to prove the Survivors spent 10 consecutive minutes not touching gens. Start a recording, walk to each gen and kick it. Then patrol for the 10 minutes for each gen, and if none of them gens are touched, you can report them for holding the game hostage IIRC, double check though. If someone tapped a gen/stops the regression, you have to restart the 10 minute timer.
This 10 minute gen tap strat (technically 9m59s, as it needs to be done before the 10mins are reached), is the Survivor equivalent of bleeding someone out while searching for the 4k. Both are scummy, but technically legal according to the game rules.I don't recall the specific BHVR post where they stated the evidentiary requirement of 10 minutes of no gen touching, so I'm just going off of memory. They may have internally changed the rules in that regard, but I never saw the update post if there was one.
-
Please just make it an option (Default On). That way newer players can get the benefit of what it is supposed to do, but experienced players can just disable it and having nothing to blame other than themself if things go wrong.
-
@FatAngryB said:
Hello, I wanted to give my feedback on probably something had has accrued attention before, but after years of playing since 2018, and having played multiple killers, I feel I can confidently say my five cents on this matter and bring this to the dev's consideration. I think it matters has to be reiterated as it's honestly a waste of gameplay pressure potential.
The Status effect, Deep Wound, does not work as intended. It is a very heavily abused by way of non-interaction "status effect". Per the description by the Wiki stated,
"Survivors suffering from Deep Wound are on borrowed time and will automatically enter the Dying State, after 20 seconds, unless they either Self-Mend or have other Survivors Mend them.
The Deep Wound timer is displayed to all Players as a special, yellow Health-bar displayed on the Survivor HUD.
The timer is paused whenever the affected Survivor is either running or in the process of Mending."Alright, let's review this effect, as it's rather illogical when you consider it. I'm not sure how exactly the effect in question has gotten past the DBD dev team, as it's rather glaringly obvious. It's paradoxical infact, to say the least.
1. A Survivor will NEVER stop moving. Unless:
They are hiding in a locker for longer than twenty seconds, which no one does that. Anyone in a Tier past Bronze, that is. So maybe someone who plays five matches in six months at a time. Two, they will stop to MEND, overcoming twenty seconds in agonizing ease.
They go AFK. That's literally it. A Survivor must never stop moving, nor do any actions like repairing generators or lockers, which does nothing to slow them down in prevention of removing deep wound because frankly they won't do anything else but run away, and heal. I do not understand why anyone thought this was a logical design choice.
2. This timer clear isn't benefitting from anything that affects healing in any regard. So you need to slow down Healing Progress via Hemorrhage, as having 25% of however long the healing process is, is clearly insufficient. That said? Unless you somehow apply Broken, which a vast majority of Killers can't do without specific perks, which apply circumstantial effects, it becomes a question not of, "How long can I outlast Deep Wound by being afflicted with Broken", but rather, "How long can I run around until Broken wears off by never stop running until I can remove Deep Wound and heal myself."
You can't honestly expect someone to expect a Survivor to standard around and wait to drop dead. They have twenty seconds to open that Gate, not heal and escape without removing DW while someone else baits the Killer to play Chicken with them.
That does not sound logical nor fair to those utilizing the effect. And speaking from experience, with over 200 hours in the game (I have a life after all and play other games), as a Iridescent tier Killer main, I have NEVER, EVER, downed someone with Deep Wound. On ANY KILLER. PERIOD. Not even Legion, who specifies in afflicting that debuff. At this point...it simply may as well not exist, because it doesn't serve a purpose. It just knocks down AFKer's who have given up. That's it.
I'd like to also suggest the Dev Team should talk to highly-well known streamers for feedback if the words of normal players isn't recognized as gospel by this point on the matter, because frankly I watch Otzdarva often as one primary, well renowned example of someone in the Dead By Daylight community. He has frequently said the same thing in more simple words." It's a useless effect. It doesn't do anything."
His words, not mine. You can ask him yourself if you'd like to.
My two personal suggestions on what should be done? It's rather simple, to be fair.
One. Flip a switch, remove the parameters of "The timer is paused when running or in the process of Mending." Just delete that line of code. That's literally it. It will change the meta and the entire danged system at the drop of a hat with new possibilities. The problem is fixed. The Status effect becomes relevant and I can actually use the over 100+ add-ons sitting in my Loadout Stash soaked in dust. Obviously it would need to be PTB'd but that's the way these things go.
Two. Create future perks for Killers that inflict Deep Wound, this would bring forward new gameplay and appreciation for Deep Wound. Obviously it wouldn't be needed on a char like Legion, but other characters would surely benefit.
Otherwise remove it entirely and stop taunting Killers with a premises that doesn't work. That's all there is left to be said at that point. Thanks for reading my post, I hope it will be considered.
So the problem here is the effect was changed back when Legion got released, but they never updated the tooltip. Deep Wound in its current form is meant to prevent gens/totems/healing without risking a down, not cheese someone with a hit off hook or in chase.
The other thing Deep Wound does is prevent Endurance from working (which was a foolish design mistake made back in 6.1). If someone is Deep Wounded, you can hit them knowing the only thing protecting them is a potential Mettle of Man proc, but that only can happen if you know you gave them 3 protection hits earlier in the match.
Also since you mention 200hrs since 2018, I think you've missed a lot of the important changes or ignored them. We don't use Ranks for matchmaking anymore, we use MMR. That means Iridescent/Bronze means nothing other than how much of the BP reward you get at the end of the monthly reset. There may be far more changes that you are unaware of, and if you want to inform yourself of those changes, I'd recommend skimming the patch notes over the time you've played, but even more over the times you didn't play. -
@Neaxolotl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3697126#Comment_3697126
Pre 6.1 had uncountable amount of seriously ridiculous things that borderline killed game
Yeah OG DS was stupid before it needed a hook back in 1.4 was bad. DH was always super powerful, but when they added validation (aka Killer lag is actually punished instead of rewarded) it probably was too much. Old Ruin Undying with unlimited (technically totem limited) hops was ludicrous, (especially alongside forever Freddy) but that was only 4.2 to 4.5 luckily. Nurse still exists and existed then too, but she also had the busted double range add-ons and could use exposed perks for no reason.
Blah blah blah, we can go on forever about good changes also, but I think the patch immediately Pre-Mikaela was the best enjoyable state the game was ever in, followed closely by Pre-6.1. There were more total sources of good than bad for both sides before both of those patches. Mikaela introduced CoH, which I hope we can agree release CoH was busted. 6.1 Put in the 'I only need a spacebar to win' Eruption/CoB/OC combo, which I also hope we can agree was busted. (Personally I liked and actively used pre-6.1 Eruption, and it had a fair Incap timer. I'd take release Eruption over the current version if given the choice.) Since we are undoing the perk mistakes of 6.1, I just hope they fully revert all nerfed perks, as I want to use Thana outside of Myers/Legion/Plague some day again.
Some of the basekit changes in 6.1 were good, some mixed, and some bad. Removing stacking anti-tunnel endurance was a bad change, as we have ultra tunneling now because of that mistake. Making Kicks/Bloodlust take much shorter was a good change that helped M1 Killers without making too many stronger Killers even stronger. Gen speeds 80s→90s was a mixed bag, because it made stronger Killers even stronger for no good reason. Conspicuous Actions were an excellent addition to prevent misuse of things meant for anti-tunnel, and no longer allowed doing gens in the Killers face and still DSing. (Personally I think self-healing shouldn't be on that list unless you complete the action though. You can be healed by a teammate any amount without ending CA's, but a milisecond on yourself is too much? Strange.) When I complain about 6.1, I try to clarify the perk changes in 6.1 were the primary bad changes. The only strictly bad basekit change was Endurance not working while Deep Wounded. -
@Neaxolotl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3697112#Comment_3697112
You are adding more complaints for killers by arbitrary buffs, not really sure if it actually results in "less complaints" after all
Unfounded complaints aren't an issue. I can complain that the skybox in the farm maps should instead be the missing texture purple, but that has no ground to stand on and is unfounded. Slugging can still be utilized for pressure and to snowball wins with 45s UB, or even my preferred 30s to 95%, then 30s more to self-pickup for 60s total basekit UB, but it can't be used to freely grief/BM with a known timer.
Most people overestimate how long they slug to win/apply pressure, and the majority of the time they only slug for ~30-40s tops. I'd be glad to concede this point if we take a regular streamer, view their last 10 Killer games, and they needed to slug in excess of 1m to win (reach minimum 3k) in more than 1 match (so to be clear, slugging for the 4k doesn't count, since they already won). (Although to be fair, I could cheese for my argument and use someone like Scott Jund who doesn't actively camp/slug/tunnel, and you could cheese with someone else who actively and exclusively slugs like that one Knockout Hag main who never hooks. I'd still be willing to concede if you cheesed the argument, I'm just saying the potential for both of us to abuse this exists.) -
@Sandt1985 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/410677/efficient-swf-on-comms-is-now-dethroned
I have never seen a killer meta that survivors didnt complain about. SO, survivors, I must ask, what is your ideal meta for killers?
Pre 6.1 was the best for both sides. It may have gotten stale for many, but all the strong perks (other than DH) were fair. After 6.1 we deleted Ruin/Thana/Pop/Self-Care/Iron-Will/Calm Spirit/DS, and only now are they rolling back the nerfs on Pop/Ruin/DS, so hopefully the other perks (Thana and Self-Care please!!!) get returned to viable.
I guess a more specific time would be right before Mikaela's patch. CoH was just too busted, and not fixed until around Eruption was fixed also. Also old hatch allowed for punishing tunneling that still was a net win for killer. The Killer got a Win/Tie/Tie/Tie, so they won, but it was boring/anticlimactic. It was a perfect punishment for tunneling, as it was equally boring and anticlimactic as well.
-
@Felgoose said:
That's a long essay to say "I'm lagging"
To be fair, VPN Killers have long abused the 'lagvantage' they get because hits aren't server verified, and are client-sided for Killer. That's part of the reason so many people dislike playing as Ghosty and Singularity, as the lag is now working against Killer instead of for Killer. I have 20ms on my server, but always get jank hits when I'm dealing with an 8-timezone VPN Killer (which are sadly all too common anytime past 10pm).
-
@Neaxolotl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3696454#Comment_3696454
I'm stating slugging isn't the oni limited strategy, your simulation works for oni but it only workst for oni and no one else
It kills slugging as a means of winning the game, it stays for pressure, but it seems plain wrong to remove perfectly valid strategy only because someone utilized this for griefing
We don't need agency for slugged suvivors just like we don't need agency for hooked survivors, just remove the capability of griefing and no need for more
I'm saying that any Killer can make use of cyclical hooking, and return to slugs and secure a hook while still providing pressure even with a basekit UB.
It doesn't kill it as a means of winning, as you need 6 downs to kill (with a 45s basekit UB). If you want to torture people with annoyances to win, then it should be proportionately harder to do so. The strategy isn't removed, but it is limited.Not having agency is the root cause of the majority of DBD's complaints. Addressing agency-less situations means less complaints, which means better game. Also hooked Survivors only lack agency in that they can't refuse an unhook. Being able to choose to wait or Kobe is agency, and only the foolish Mikaela unhooking in the face of the previously tunneling Killer within a deadzone is providing the Survivor soon to be off hook without agency. The arguable way to fix that is have an alternate 3 times longer unhook animation, but it fills the Survivor's anti-facecamp Kobe bar. That way the save was already done, it took longer to complete, but allows for the unhooking Survivor to run away from hook and the Killer can chase the unhooker or wait until the 59s mark to tunnel.
@VomitMommy said:
Yay, why not to remove yet another strategy just so you push tunneling even more…
Also rework any power that is wasted on picking up survivor, so Plague, Myers, Twins (that won't end well), Oni.
Getting bleed out in my experience is mostly, because you annoyed the killer. I usually bleed out any survivors trying to go for saves with Background player. If they don't want to be picked up, I won't do it.
Want to remove flash light saves and pallet saves? Because slugging is only thing you can do about it.
I got bleed out few times, where most of it were Russian streamers and few times we went for Headon SWF, so that was definetly deserved.I don't think trying to give everyone basekit unbreakable is good way to fix it. Just let survivors give up, or bleed out faster. If everyone got slugged, you lost, that's it. There is no need to give second chances in basekit.
(Points addressed in order of importance)
"Getting bleed out in my experience is mostly, because you annoyed the killer. I usually bleed out any survivors trying to go for saves with Background player." "I got bleed out few times … we went for Headon SWF, so that was definetly deserved."
So you purposefully ruin the experience of someone for using a normal perk within the game?!?! Are you alright IRL? I don't understand what would drive anyone to be so petty as to waste 4 minutes of their own, and someone else's life because they used a perk. This is especially why I think basekit UB should be a thing, to prevent this level of absurdist false justifications for engaging in these essentially griefing acts. Also if the SWF all died/got slugged, why did the Killer need to BM and bleedout? They simply could have not been a jerk and hooked the Survivors. This is the mindset that causes exit gate teabags against Killers who did nothing, because the last Killer bled people out for no actual reason.
At this point the only alternative to basekit UB is that 2m+ of bleedouts should be bannable (if you provide video evidence sitting under hook or crawling towards hook), because slugging at large clearly is only used by bad actors griefing people.
As far as 'push tunneling even more', that's just a self-report to not trying to learn to improve. I have a 74% winrate before the gens pop, I never actively attempt to camp or tunnel (unless they clearly tap a gen in my face, or I need the same Survivor for the 7th and 8th hook before a kill), and Ghosty/Clown/Legion/Myers are my most played/favorite Killers in descending order. It is possible to play (and win) without tunneling unless someone brainwashed the playerbase into thinking otherwise. Heck, C3 even did an excellent experiment where they purposely hooked each Survivor once, then each a second time, then finally went for kills with no gen Slowdown on Myers with a 68% winrate across 50 matches.Also normal Myers isn't even slugging heavy unless the Killer player is playing him to lose. See my previous posts in this thread on Oni math to see why that's objectively false. Can't speak to your specific Plague playstyle, but I've never needed to slug longer than 30s as Plague, even when trying to snowball with red puke, but I also learned to not overcommit, which most of the playerbase hasn't.
-
@Snowbawlzzz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3696418#Comment_3696418
That is essentially a forced 12-hook game and the time table of generators would need to be balanced for that
It encourages a 12 hook game, not forces. A weaker skilled Killer can still get a 4k with facecamping a chokepoint as Bubba 17m away from hook, and merely using Deadlock and taking free downs. Even then other weaker skilled Killers can still Hook A/B/A/B/A/B/C/D for an 8 hook 4k, and still win. It would just provide those weaker skilled Killers who actually want to have bragging rights or the drive to improve in being willing to risk the Mori kills for a cooler win.
Gen times are balanced in my Killer games back when there was 80s gens with MMR, even further back with 80s gens and Rank based matchmaking, and still to this day with 90s gens and MMR. That just tells me people haven't reached their personal skill ceiling and are unwilling to learn in order to improve. This proposal would provide that incentive to improve, as many people would be willing to go for the 'MISSION ACCOMPLISHED' instead of the basic 'mission complete'. -
@Neaxolotl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3695833#Comment_3695833
This feels weird because somehow you are thinking oni can down survivors within 7s, four times, then you can find and reach all of slugged survivors in zero seconds
You must find survivors during they are still alive, then you must find survivors that is on ground, this is not an easy job that can be done within 60 or even 120 seconds
45s of pressure is nothing unless you are only using it for someone unhookable, or in conjunction with tunneling (basically only usable in "normal" gameplay), full slugging tactics is 100% killed unless you are absolute speed demon (probably a wallhacker too)
The person was claiming (back during that PTB) the 45s UB prevents Oni snowballs. Technically the only way an Oni could snowball with all 4 downs is by having at least 1 multi-hit as the swing warmup and cooldown take longer that the 17s you have remaining after losing time for each down (so you would need Swing 1 downing Survs A+B, Swing 2 downs Surv C, Swing 3 downs Surv D).
A Killer would know where they downed the Survs, and be able to rotate accordingly. For example if I downed the Survs in the 4 compass directions. I can save massive amounts of time by hooking them at the next Surv's compass direction. Eg. Surv downed in the order of North, East, South, West. I can then pickup Surv North and hook them at East, pickup East and hook them at South, pickup South and hook them at West, then pickup West and hook for the win. (See hookmap below)
Must find them: Again, if they crawled, they bought the Killer more time, and if they recovered, the Killer knows where they are. If they crawled for 10s, they only made 7m of distance, and the Killer can spend only a mere 1.5s extra to walk to where they got downed, then walk to their new 7m further location the Surv crawled to. Even if the claim was all 4 Survs crawled for 10s before starting to recover, that only cost the Killer 6 total seconds (~1.5*4), and cost the Survivors 10 total seconds. Net positive of 4s for Killer if Survivors crawled, thus I gave the worst case scenario for Killer with instant-recovering and no crawling, and Killer still being able to hook all Survivors.
It doesn't kill slugging as a form of pressure or slowdown, but it does make hooking more effective as a form of pressure. It also gives agency to slugged Survivors, instead of telling them to just AFK till bleedout. If someone wants to still bleedout for their kills, they need 6 downs (as opposed to hooking taking 3), so they are willingly taking a harder way to kill Survs, and the Survs are still given agency to play. -
@Snowbawlzzz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3696389#Comment_3696389
"hook-oriented" gameplay only feels good for survivors
Killers want to killThe two can be brought to the same end. Unlock basekit Moris after 8 hooks with no kills. That way Killer can go for the cool kills by getting 8 hooks, and brag about their greater victory matches.
-
@Commander_Nefarious said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3696410#Comment_3696410
there is only a 3 percent difference. survivor is 107
I find NOED/Adren/Hope/NWO complaints largely similar. If then opposing side is down a perk the majority of the game and you only lose due to the added threat of an endgame perk, that side could have just brought a normal perk and won far easier instead.
Edit: Fixed phrasing to be clearer -
@Neaxolotl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3695790#Comment_3695790
Because it's taking a reward from high risk high reward tactics
Slugging is balanced by the fact it guarantee win by risking the chance of everyone getting up and everything getting undone, if you remove that reward by giving free basekit for survivors, you are effectively removing the usage of slugging beside "adding pressure" which is more or less easier and lesser hooking
And hooking takes more than 10 seconds each, so if you hook with basekit UB it'll just make one or two survivors up and let them rescue everyone, effectively leaving you with four survivor alive with just one or two hook state which is far worse than simply hooking
45s of pressure is more than enough time to get what you need done without stepping into the realm of being a jerk.
As far as the timing goes, I'll use the same Oni example the person tried to claim would be killed back in that PTB.
45s of power, losing 7s per down, capped at a 28s reduction or 17s from first down to last down. That gives the Killer 28s to pick up the first Surv from where they downed the last. Given that it takes ~3s to pickup, ~3s to hook, and ~8s to walk to hook (avg. of 0-16s), that takes ~14s per Surv. That means the first and second Surv is hooked before the first could pick themself up. The third is then hooked just as the final Surv has ~42s on the ground, or 3s from being able to pick themself up, and the Killer is able to down them or pick them up by the time they are finally reached. That is all assuming the Survivors decided to recover. If they decided to crawl, then you have nothing to worry about since they aren't picking themselves up in time. -
@Neaxolotl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3695785#Comment_3695785
You need to slug all survivors at once if you are using slugging as a winning tactics
You don't have enough time for hooking when an objective is to down all survivors, and this is hardly considered BM at all
The slug tactics and hook tactics is pretty much entire opposition, you don't even try to bleedout, you just try to down all survivors to hook them one by one
And I don't even feel slug tactics is any unhealthy because it just adds tension for both side, it can be undone by one clever save or all can lose by one mistake
You don't need to slug all Survs simultaneously when using it as a tactic. You can do it intermittently as long as your reach the 6 unassisted slugs with a 45s basekit self-pickup. Down 1, 45s, 2, 1m30s, 3, 2m15s, 4, 3m, 5, 3m45s, 6 Dead.
You most certainly can down and hook Survivors and still meet the goal of downing them all. How is this not possible in your eyes? You can come back at any time to check on them or hook them.
-
@Steakdabait said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3695772#Comment_3695772
unbreak doesn't do anything 99% of the time. You lost once it come down to slugging for the 4k, the killer just decided that they value ensuring that there's another skull icon on the end game menu over their and everyone else's time
Oh yeah don't get me wrong, UB should have unlimited uses, or a basekit self-pickup should be implemented. Alternatively give Survivors who recover to the max 95% an option to quit without DC penalties, that way they can safely quit if they are being bledout, but not if the Killer is picking them up and hooking them.
-
@Neaxolotl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3695771#Comment_3695771
Actually, it can easily take more than 45s if you are going to try to slug everyone at once
Killing a perfectly valid tactics only to stop "abuse" that doesn't even happen for majority of time feels strange
You don't need to slug all Survivors at once, you can hook them.
Just as proxy-camping is valid, and facecamping abuse was targeted to give Survivors agency. A basekit self-pickup would still allow for Bleedouts, but now give Survivors agency in that scenario.A basekit self-pickup with 45s would kill in 6 un-assisted slugs, which matches perfectly with 3 hooks in taking twice the effort. It would push players towards the more healthy (for the game) way of killing Survivors, without deleting the gameplay opportunity slugging provides.
-
Uninstalling can be a good option if you have an alternative way to pass the time. Technically you can bring Unbreakable, but needing a perk to bandaid a problem of design is kind of silly.
-
@AdaEnjoyer2839 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3695732#Comment_3695732
if you really see nothing wrong with it you can stick to your opinion because i've given you my points already. if you can see nothing wrong with it and how miserable it feels to play when that happens it's just a matter of different opinions and i can respect that. i compared slugging to facecamping in that way because survivors cant do much about both situations and both can be resolved by bhvr since it's a game mechanic. it really depends on what you mean by slugging for pressure because if survivors are all up in your face then it makes sense to down them, but literally just hook them at that point. I recognize there's no actual reward to hooking since it slows the killer down in a sense, and something could be changed about that. it's a game and games are meant to be fun for both sides. if you're genuinely getting on to make the survivors miserable with that mindset every game and there's a mechanic in the game that you can just freely abuse that should be mentioned. maybe it shouldn't be 60 seconds but 90 or 120, whatever is more healthy for the game. the whole point of this post is to not allow killers to make survivors miserable without a penalty. if the killer is hooking survivors instead of just leaving them on the ground for an eternity then theres no issue to discuss but it's not always the case. i've seen a lot of opinions on this and allowing you to pick yourself back up is the most reasonable one, the only issue is how long it should take.
There actually is a natural reward for hooking. It provides permanent pressure, and locks in progress towards death on a Survivor. Someone is now going to have to rescue, and the Killer can provide additional pressure by chasing a would be rescuer if the Survivors got too greedy and attempted the save too late.
Survivors are also limited to 3 hook states max, compared to that 4 minute timer. By hooking a Survivor, the Killer hastens their death. The longest 3 hook states can last a Survivor is 59s before getting rescued, 59s before getting rescued again, and dead. That basically can be seen as killing a Survivor in 2 minutes. The bleedout takes twice that, and can be somewhat undone much more easily.
The only reason to slug in excess of 45s (the original PTB basekit UB) is to BM.