mizark3
mizark3
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3757622#Comment_3757622
Genuine question: Why? What's the problem trying to be solved here?
The buff was explicitly made because 3 genning became a problem (due to a bunch of issues combined), and once a solution would be found (regression limit), it was planned to be reverted. It is better to tear off the bandaid now, rather than like the DS change where it became core to the game's ability to function properly at 5s. We still haven't properly healed (because no good anti-tunnel exists atm, although the Babysitter buff seems like an honest effort).
The original patch note mentioning the change -
There were also forum posts by devs around that time frame (that might have been on the 7.0 PTB), but it is too difficult and annoying to find dev posts for me to seek them out (if they even still exist since the PTB posts are deleted/archived nowhere I can find them).
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I think the main difference with Ghosty and Singularity is advancing your power on them pressures them with Singularity, but not with Ghostface. Ghosty doesn't let the Survivors 'feel' the pressure (unless they are chase stalking, in which case they are going to lose anyways). Singularity can partially chase multiple Survivors at once, and they all 'feel' that pressure. Ghosty works best when they don't know you stalked them, yet Singularity works best when they are always 'feeling' stalked/tagged.
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It should simply have the buff for anti-3gen reverted. Arguably they could have the repair speed boost be timed, and keep the aura reveal as permanent as a partial nerf instead.
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I think the pre-Mikaela Hatch was the best version of the Hatch we had (although the delayed Key usage post-Mikaela is better).
- Hatch is a tie for matchmaking purposes, so even a 3 Hatch escape is a Killer win (K/T/T/T)
- Hatch only punished boring playstyles with an anticlimactic end that still was a Killer win (tunneling someone out early, 3-genning), which we added the regression limit mechanic to address when we already had it solved. Also an anticlimactic end makes it less preferable to gate escapes, which encourages playing the game out through the normal gen+gate channel.
- If the Survivors could have gotten a 4-out through the gates, they deliberately choose to give the Killer better results by going out through hatch. (S/S/S/S → T/T/T/T)
Hatch was great for the game, and it has only been nerfed to good. We shouldn't seek to make the game even worse by removing it entirely.
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This doesn't address the actual problem, because anyone who has ever played Killer knows they are getting near double the average BP of Survivor from the onset. Not only that, but the BP/minute is far far far better to simply AFK in the corner or at the final hook after the 3rd Kill to let them get hatch (if you don't have intel on their location). Anyone saying they engage in bleeding out for the BP is lying to your face.
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@dbd900bach said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3757577#Comment_3757577
I appreciate the advice, I really do. Thinking about a better way to play him certainly helps, though its fundamentally frustrating at times when it feels like you have no power. When making this post, I wasnt preening that Singularity should be easier to play, but more so that his power should feel more rewarding for the intense macro playstyle needed to play him.
Yeah to be fair I come from Ghostface as my 'main', so a setup Killer with delayed payoff is what I'm used to. Singularity compared to Ghosty however makes Marked stalks a joke with how much you can get with how little comparative effort is involved.
With Ghosty it is super macro-intensive, as I have to sneak along edges, track everyone's location, intercept a rescuer to force others off of gens or soak the 2nd hook state, force good pallet drops, and all that to get an Exposed down or stealth hit here and there. With Singularity, I can get a far more micro intensive gameplay, but far far far more macro reward. My first chase can often result in 3-5 good pallets being deleted for the rest of the match, at near no investment compared to Ghosty, but it still takes the continuous mental energy. (Place biopod, shoot Surv 1, TP on Surv 1, force a pallet drop, kick at 1.75 speed, Surv 2 EMPs Surv 1, Tag Surv 2, keep chasing Surv 1, Tag Surv 3 on a gen to force an EMP, get a hit or pallet from Surv 1 not realizing the shrunken TR was from tagging Surv 3 but sticking on Surv 1, finally get the down on Surv 1 and check a few pods to get all Surv locations and know where to go next, then hook Surv 1 where it helps you and hurts them the most.)
A good Singularity is similar to (and even more effective than) a good Dredge, and you can make all Survivors 'feel' like they are pressured at all times. The key to Singularity is reaching a rhythm or flow state, where all your actions neatly connect into the next action. When you can establish a rhythm, it doesn't feel stressful (for you, and ultra stressful for the Survs), but without enough experience, it is painful.
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@Objectively_speaking said:
Do not play base singularity, you need soma family photo if you even want to play a game and get a hit. BTW without photo your power runs out before you can hit with singularity every single time unless the survivor makes a mistake. If the survivor holds W you will not be able to get a hit in your power.
I mean if you are reliant on the Soma speedboost then that means you fundamentally don't understand the utility of his power. He gets (nearly) a 4x (max stack) Fire Up. That makes all corner pallets a free hit (and since about 30-40% of pallets now are corner pallets, that's a lot of free hits). Secondly you can punish instadrops by soaking the power for a free Spirit Fury.
Basically Singularity is a macro Killer, and you win by slowing gens by forcing EMP pickups, and whittling down the map resources long before normal. Not only that, Singularity can teleport crossmap with little investment. Not only that, but with add-ons like Scream on un-slipstream, you can keep track of where everyone is, knowing where people will approach from, and being able to intercept them. Even if you run no add-ons, the Survivors are caught in a lose lose with EMP usage. If they follow the chase, you can retag in 2s, and it took them far longer than 8s to grab an EMP and run over. If they use EMPs to prevent macro/crossmap tags+TPs, then you are overwhelming in chase. The real counter to Singularity is having one person always printing EMPs (assuming the Singularity has a modicum of skill), but even then that takes up so much gen time that a powerless M1 Killer can still win if it is effectively a 3v1 the entire game.
Everyone who wants skill expression should praise Singularity, because you truly utilize skill instead of just bruteforcing hits with near double speed (Nurse Blinks, Spirit Phasing, Blight Rushes, Wesker Dashes, Billy Saws, Oni Dash, etc.).
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@DyingWish92 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3757176#Comment_3757176
Stop being dramatic. My goodness. Gen speeds are broken, play some killer for a change.
I won(/win) the vast majority of my games both before and after the gens speeds swapped from 80s to 90s. It literally is a 'skill dif git gud' problem for Killer barring maybe Trapper and Myers for most people. Tunneling causes weak Killers to think they have skill, then once they reach top MMR where they are just as strong as the weak link, they lose since they lost their crutch.
@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3757206#Comment_3757206
Its the toolboxes, not the perks. A Brown toolbox works better than Provethyself. Most survivors' Gen perks require to do something else but Gen.
I think toolboxes now should just give skill check only. And double the charges, so you relied on your great skill checks to boost the progress.
In general I agree, but I think at least the Green and Purple genspeed toolboxes should still provide a bonus. Maybe a static -50%, that way the normal 50% becomes skillchecks only (without add-ons), but the Green and Purple become 25% and 50% respectively.
Also Hyperfocus should probably not work with Toolboxes and be the Autodidact of gens. Although if we did a toolbox mixup like this it might be overkill to do both.
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@loreaccuratenemesis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3750102#Comment_3750102
I notice such a huge difference when I play a Killer like Freddy compared to Sadako. I rarely ever played Freddy, and when I play him now I get extremely casual matches where I could win or lose, but it still feels fair and relaxed either way. I play as Sadako however, whom I unfortunately mained during 2.0 iteration and got insane winstreaks on, and I consistently have to go against Survivors that are cracked out of their minds and completely destroy me. Not just genrushing, they go out of their way to abuse me as much as is in their power to do so, and I'm forced to just DC and stop playing for the day. I seriously can't take it anymore.
I've since gone on massive losing streaks as Sadako, but it hasn't helped. It's been half a year and all it takes is one or two matches where the Survivors give up on the first down and all sacrifice themselves on hook, and I'm back to the bully squads as her. It's made it so I cannot even play Sadako anymore. So then I move on to Freddy for example and now I'm paranoid about winning. I feel like I actively don't want to win, but having to put so much effort into NOT winning feels counterintuitive and silly. Not to mention difficult, since Survivors are really prone to giving up.
Yeah even with massive loss streaks, the softcap of MMR is too sticky/clingy. We need to significantly reduce or limit the softcap, and allow for natural MMR adjustments. The best way to make due with the poor system we are in, is to make the mental win-con an MMR loss. That's why I like the 2-hook and release playstyle. Most people agree that if you can get 8 hooks (without a kill) before the gens pop, you 'won' already, even if MMR doesn't agree. It requires more skill to track who still has hook states remaining, and intentionally down someone else fast enough to make sure they are all still alive.
Not much you can do about Survivors giving up though. Even if both sides are playing to lose MMR, Survivor usually has the easier time. A Killer can drop the Survivor out of the gates, but a Survivor can hide out the timer and die (or give up mid match). That means it is easier to reach the topcap MMR as Killer, and makes getting out of the hellhole of matches all the more difficult.
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@loreaccuratenemesis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3749923#Comment_3749923
Yeah, it's this dilemma that drives me insane. I keep going against players that are waaaaay better than me, probably because I get so many matches where Survivors give up that now the game thinks I'm some kind of Killer god when I'm not. It's so frustrating. If MMR were real, then I'd think maybe I should play with handicaps so that way my MMR stays low so I can keep my sanity and play casual. But if I'm going to get paired against these hardcore bully squads no matter what I do, then it only makes sense to run full meta sweat myself every single match and act like every match is a tournament with my life on the line. It feels like there's literally no room for anything in between and tbh I really don't know which path to take.
I feel like I've been trying to play chill/casual but it doesn't matter. I only get two types of matches: Survivors that throw and give up at 5 gens on the first down or the tryhard god loopers that finish all 5 gens before I can get a single down. Nothing else.
That's the problem, you basically have to purposefully tank your MMR down to a playable level again, then when it starts to feel good, you have to intentionally go for a 2k+2e. The problem with tanking your MMR is that the system has a softcap for the top 25% of the population. That means when normally playing before long/top MMR, you have a 55/100 Killer going against a 51/53/57/59 Survivor group. The top end now shifts to newly 75/100 Killer against 75/75/75/75 or potentially even 75/80/85/90 Survivors.
The way a Killer has to play in order to be ready for that jump, is to purposely only chase the best Survivor each game (before reaching that softcap). The Killer can naturally lose until their real MMR is much higher than their listed MMR (say 85 real, 75 listed). If I tunnel the weak link each match, my MMR will slip past my real skill (say 65 real, 75 listed). Once we reach that 75% MMR threshold, you can't drop below with a single loss anymore like a normal MMR system would. You have to lose multiple times over and over and over again to finally drop below that threshold, but then a single win puts you back in that (lets say) 10 loss scenario before your MMR can drop again.
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@loreaccuratenemesis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3749923#Comment_3749923
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3749930#Comment_3749930
What playstyles/builds do you both use and enjoy playing with? I'd like to hear about some other players' experiences and how they still manage to have fun despite dealing with this weird MMR system.
I now do the 8 hook strat (without the walk) and it is far more enjoyable, since my MMR will change the same no matter how good I did. That means I can try or goof off and since I know the results are exactly the same, I don't have to worry about how well a new build is. You can run all auras, you can run all lethality, you can run all Undetectable, it doesn't matter anymore, because you are allowed to have fun again rather than forced to follow the current sweat build.
Personally my favorite build is always running Devour Hope (+Undying). You only kill people with Moris, or Vengeance kill the one person who cleansed your totem. This naturally helps keeps MMR lower, because a cleanse means 1k max even if you would otherwise win, and people who can't cleanse are gunna die in a 3/4k regardless.
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The problem with the game is that MMR causes Killer to be more fun when you ONLY sweat, or NEVER sweat. That means either turbo tunnel and proxy camp and run meta on the current top 5 Killers, or 8 hook the Survs then take a 5-min walk IRL. Neither direction helps actual enjoyment of the game, which is what is contributing to most people's dissatisfaction/burnout with the game.
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3749895#Comment_3749895
If I run auras, I tend to run Lethal with them, so I already start the match knowing how many people have Dist and can plan accordingly.
Yeah, the moment when I don't see anyone at start of the game with Lethal is pretty depressing…
A generic change could be (on the Survivor side) aura-hides don't work when you have the least hooks.
That's definetly an interesting idea.
Start of match - Then that means I know they all have Distortion, which means they are down to only 3 perks. If my build was reliant on auras I can still burn through the stacks safely (eg. Black Incense essentially giving permanent aura reads, or Ghosty Iri Cam+Undetectable preventing stacks from being re-earned).
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3745517#Comment_3745517
Tbagging is indecent. Slugging to get a 4th kill is not. Tbagging is always used for BM, whereas slugging serves to advance the killer's objective of getting more kills.
Tbagging is 99% handicapping yourself, 1% indecent. The 1% is exit gate teabags. The 99% is midmatch, because they could have been running away getting distance, and instead decided to give the Killer an advantage with a 0.5s-1s 100% hindered. (Also I can push the Survs out or kick spare pallets, so I still have agency.) Fair to complain about exit gate t-bags (which I called out), not nearly the same mid-match.
Bleedout for the 4k (for more clarity: when the Killer doesn't know where the 4th is) is nothing but BM. The Killer is wasting 3-5 people's time (Bleedout victim, Killer, Stealth Surv, 1-2 SWF teammates/perk checking players waiting for the match to end to play again, with the first and last categories being without agency) just to go on an ego trip (in most cases). Sure Adepts/Tomes exist, but I don't think you are arguing that most bleedout for 4ks are Adept/Tome attempts.
Also to be clear, my stance was 'Bleedout bad', and you lessened that to Slugging in a self-report. So if you ever say Slugging again I know you actually mean Bleedouts, since they are synonymous in your mind. That's pretty messed up man.
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3745182#Comment_3745182
Kinda an issue is the perk is mostly good on already very strong killers, who don't need to get buff.
Value of BBQ for M1 killers is not that high compare to Billy, or Blight.
Yeah, that's fair. My top 5 to play as are Ghosty/Clown/Legion/Trapper/Myers (and to a lesser extent Pig/Dredge/Singu), and generally don't have an issue with Distortion. If I run auras, I tend to run Lethal with them, so I already start the match knowing how many people have Dist and can plan accordingly.
A generic change could be (on the Survivor side) aura-hides don't work when you have the least hooks. That way if being tunneled they still work, but if the Killer is trying to spread pressure they still get the info.
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Killer Instinct should be Survivor action based, not Killer. If a Survivor is progressing gens and successfully out-stealthing the Killer, that is fine. It only is when they don't touch gens that it becomes a problem. 5 mins of no touching gens would be fine (as long as they also aren't completing actions like healing/unhooking).
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3746903#Comment_3746903
That has to be the weirdest comparison ever. You have a legal obligation to call the fire department in that case, same as when you witness a traffic accident with noone being around or seeing a person suffer a heart attack. You are obliged to call the ambulance or whoever is appropriate. And I don't know how it is morally right to waste my time in doing things that most likely will not result in anything… It is already hard to reason that a moral obligation is there to report bugs, perhaps for cheaters in consecutive and extreme cases but surely not for bugs.
Agreed, like I said it is just too much work, and I don't care enough about it to go through that. If the devs want my help in such things they should at least make the report system more convenient.
Indeed, lets hope the new engine allows for that, otherwise they might as well just re write the whole game in an engine that allows it, considering how bad spaghetti code tends to be.
There isn't a legal 'obligation to act'/'duty to act' everywhere (or some are limited to only if you are responsible/involved eg. auto accident as one of the parties in the accident), even if I do think it is a good standard to prevent the bystander effect.
(Also IIRC the old engine [UE4] had a replay feature built in, it just was never implemented into DBD. UE5 still has replay functionality, and we can only hope they eventually implement it.)
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3746747#Comment_3746747
Not really, it is their game and their job to fix it the players should not the be the Guinea pig when they for some reason break vault distances for female survivors for the 5th time, most bugs get reported several times anyway and worst case someone makes a video about it or a content creator shines light on the issue, if you want to help them sure go for it. But I am surely not making extra steps to help them when they for whatevee reason resist to give the game basic functionality that has been the standard in video games for over a decade now.
I have never had a situation where I felt like a cheater ruined my game, I don't get bothered by them no matter what happens. In case I get one I just go afk, I am not playing matches with cheaters and instead do something else.
I know it is easy, but I should not be required to do any extra steps... I should have a report window explain what and when it happens and that is it... Maybe give the time in the replay, but I m not going out of my way to use anything external or open a ticket on their side to do something as simple as reporting a cheater, it is ridiculous that this is or at least was how this game does these things and I don't think this is acceptable at all, I am not participating in stuff like that unless they at least offer the bare minimum.
I don't know man ^^ Just because the devs know a bug exists does not mean they fix it, Nurse fov and fatigue have been bugged for 8 months or so now... And it still did not get fixed as far as I know... Where is even the point of reporting stuff ^^ At some point they removed anti aliasing on accident and it took them 3 years to being it back... I have no trust in them fixing stuff that they clearly know about. And if I don't have the faith that they will actually fix stuff I take the time to report then I am just wasting my time.
Sure, a concede button or bleed out give up or whatever would be great, how exactly it works is ofc up for debate, but I they should implement it in some way.
I know my neighbor's house is burning, but I have no reason to help them flee, ring the doorbell, or call the fire department. It isn't a matter of doing it because you feel like you should, it is a matter of doing it because you know it is right. At the same time, I can understand being so burdened by the rest of life's obligations, that one more thing is enough to be the straw that breaks the camel's back. I especially understand the difficulty of recording in response to cheating, and having to force them to cheat in front of you again for the report, then having to log in and change your password through the email because the time since it was last changed was too long, then having to fill out the form (or be annoyed by the AI chatbot which is less efficient), then looking up your steam ID, then finally being able to submit the report on them.
I 100% agree we should have replays though, as they are the best way to learn strategies/perks/hiding spots, find cheaters, and show off cool moments.
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When everyone else smells like they pooped their pants, maybe I should take the time to check my own pants…
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3746690#Comment_3746690
How would it be working correctly given his pov would be from his belly? Didn't they basically immediately say that his pov was broken when he was released?
The camera and the primary hitbox check being separate contributed most of his bugs. If they 100% removed the camera check, and only used the waist check, it would lead to a lot of 'invisible' bumps, which appears to be what people are complaining about now. When the two checks were at the same location, it functioned correctly.
I don't know the exact details as far as what they did to 'fix' the camera, but it broke his collision as a consequence. My guess is someone who didn't understand how he was programmed did the equivalent of tearing off his index and middle finger, and grafted them onto his forehead. That would mean whenever Blight would move his 'hand', both the head fingers and the hand fingers would wiggle. Obviously if I'm moving my hand to close my fingers, my face shouldn't move at the same time, so something was messed up.
That was what I was trying to say with the picture, is that they broke the checks that were supposed to be linked.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3746645#Comment_3746645
I'm certainly not doing that… This game does not even offer a replay mode so I can check myself whether or not someone was cheating, I am therefore certainly not wasting my time on such a bug ridden mess like this game… If it was more convenient I might do that, but as it is nah.
Ok, for what? Like everyone knows the game is full of bugs cheaters and dumb stuff, why should I care to show people what they already saw a thousand times? Besides the point where I would need to censor all that stuff so people don't witch hunt the cheaters, or whatever reason there is for that rule. Seems too much effort for literally nothing as a reward.
I mean generally speaking since bleeding someone out is a legitimate way to kill a survivor I don't think I need much of a reason to bleed someone out? But usually you can judge fairly easily whether you make it to a hook or not, so I don't need to pick them up and let them wiggle to know whether or not I make it. My point was more like if the guys has to stay on the floor for that long until I can hook them on a hook that will only despawn for half the match again I might as well bleed them out as that is just faster.
Yeah it should be on the devs to fix the game, but if we want improvements shouldn't we at least take to effort to help them? Yeah replays would fix the vast majority of this 'barrier to entry' for reporting bugs and cheaters, but that doesn't mean I go 'ah fudge it, I'll let that cheater ruin my game without reporting them'.
Censoring names even in paint isn't difficult, here's a less than 1 minute 3 step guide.
Super easy! Hopefully you feel empowered enough to help others (the devs through reports), in order to help yourself (to fix bugs or report cheaters and make the game better)!
As far as the final paragraph is concerned, I was speaking of the people clearly using Bleedouts to BM, rather than simply being unable to hook. They seem to be the vast majority of people complaining about lack of hooks with how plentiful hooks have been in my Survivor/SWF/Killer matches. If the Survivor runs back into a corner after they wiggled free, I'm not complaining about them being bledout. The issue is if we are making hook changes to fix the bleedout issue, we should give Survivors a Kobe mechanic to bleedout quicker as well, in order to prevent bleedout time wasting to affect everyone. Bleedout BM is the far more common scenario that is happening in my experience, so it should be prioritized, or at the bare minimum simultaneously addressed.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3746648#Comment_3746648
Ok but then why not decide on whether or not to keep such things and not make it fully dependant on if the devs initailly wanted it? Considering that is usually the case when a unintended feature works well? Like curves on Billy or looping?
Also saying hug tech is was not intended is kind of a lie, considering Mclean literally made people aware of this being a thing… On of the guys who created Blight so at that point it was certainly an intended mechanic, they just later decided otherwise for what ever reason.
I don't know what the first paragraph has to do with me, I don't care lol. I was just clarifying to someone else why some other people use 'exploit' to describe some things. I think this part is directed at someone else.
As for the second paragraph, you are repeating a half truth with missing context. There was a video where he said 'blah blah blah was intended', then in a follow-up video he was given the full information and said the equivalent of 'oh yeah it wasn't supposed to work that way'. So ultimately with full context he said it was not functioning correctly.
Blight had a waist height camera on release, and there was a check tied to both the camera and the waist. (See rough picture)
Since these were the same in the old, the checks all worked correctly. When they 'fixed' his camera, they broke his bump mechanics, and introduced bugtech. I am 100% ok with returning bugtech as long as we also get the waist high camera, because then everything is actually working correctly.
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@Rauy556 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3745952#Comment_3745952
Except hooks are the only way for the killer to progress their gameplay, pallets are not THE way survivors progress their gameplay objectives, they help them in achieving this but are not the pivotal part of it as a survivor team can escape without using a single pallet but a killer cannot sacrifice without hooks. Hooking is the only thing killers can do to progress their win condition, so comparing this with pallets is not an appropriate comparison, also hooks by themselves do nothing to affect gameplay, they are only used when the killer has already chased, downed and picked up a survivor.
Also, I really disagree with the claim that all maps have 2 hooks easily reachable from a corner, there are many maps that I have played on that have only 1 hook in a corner as a result of a hill and the basement spawining within close proximity, a good example of this is in the Crotus Penn Asylum realm. There is also the case of Badham, mothers Dwelling and others I cannot recall. This change is necessary to address bad map and hook layouts. Granted it is a 'bandaid fix' but I would much rather have this than have to wait 5 years for them to individually address the problematic maps.
Do you seriously believe this change will lead to more tunneling? Please explain, because I would tell you that every person that tunnels would laugh at the suggestion that the 'hook destruction upon sacrifice' mechanic deters them and makes them thoroughly think before tunneling due to the punishment it can have.
This change is really not that big of a deal, it is not like it provides immense free value for killer like an automatic down, as opposed to your comparison of respawning pallets which essentially provides free chase time extensions for no input from a survivor. A respawning pallet mechanic could work if survivors had to waste time in order to 'respawn' it, like a rebuild action, this would be the equivalent of a killer needing to chase and get a down to then make use of the hook.
Also, ofcourse people that want to slug will still do it, but this mechanic just minimises the situation where a killer is stuck in a situation where the last survivor just constantly runs to a corner of the map knowing the nearest hook is destroyed out of spite and wants to waste the killer's time for winning the match.
Paragraph 1 Reply - Basekit there are 2 ways to kill Survivors, Bleedouts and hooks. Bleedouts are not enjoyable, but a Kobe equivalent option on the ground is the solution to that problem. But if you want to swap the standard to gens, the only way to progress the objective (which Survivor truly only has 1 way), then gens should be 're-completeable' after the 240s, while still counting towards the total gens completed. Then we can remove the 3-gen regression limit also.
Paragraph 2 Reply - Maybe we have different definitions of 'easily reachable', so I'll lay out my definition here. "Easily reachable" is a hook that you can head towards, but still have time to redirect to another hook in time to reach, or safely drop the Survivor to the Dying stage (not injured). That may mean you can 'easily reach' 4 hooks in the majority of cases. Every case I've had of basement interrupting normal hook spawns due to a hook deadzone (that I could hook a Surv on), I've been able to reach basement itself in time. Long lines do appear to be the exception to this rule (like both sides of Killer shack on the Asylum), but still means you can reach 2 hooks at minimum. If I used those 2 hooks, and the 3rd Surv would rather bleedout in the corner than let me hook them, they made that choice.
Paragraph 3 Reply - Does a speedbump prevent speeding? Well at the very least speedbumps deters speeding. Hook death is a speedbump against tunneling, and removing a speedbump increases the chance that someone will speed through the area, thus increasing the chance that someone will tunnel in the right circumstances. It slightly impacts the Killers ability to kill the remaining Survivors as a result of tunneling. With that slight disincentive removed, it stands to follow that tunneling will increase (by however slightly it may be). (Tunnel section of this post pasted here, if it seems like context is missing, check the original post)
For tunneling, it penalizes early kills because a tool is permanently
lost. If I tunnel someone and put them on a Scourge hook, I lose one of
my 4 valuable hooks to get my PR/Floods/GoP/etc. on. If I delete a hook,
I give the remaining 3v1 the slightest bit of a better chance than a
drawn-out loss for Survivor, that it basically is in any match with a
Killer who has a modicum of skill, with more than 1 gen remaining.Paragraph 4 Reply - This is kind of my point, if it is not a big deal, then NOT making the change is also not a big deal. I'm not even advocating for not putting the change through. I think the bottom 75% of players having this change is a far better thing than what is lost for the top 25% of players. Anyone wanting skill expression to not be removed should be crying against this change, and if they don't, then in the next discussion with familiar names I'll know they are only wanting tribal changes, not good changes. If an action should be required for repairs, shouldn't both sides have to engage in such an action for the repairs (with a default 4-1 ratio, possible shorter time for Killer since travel time is also a consideration)? Why should a theoretical Killer auto-repair be baked into chase, and not Survivors (even if at the 4-1 ratio)?
Paragraph 5 Reply - That's fair to want to prevent Killer having to suffer a spite bleedout. I think no one should have to suffer a spite bleedout. Give Survivors a Kobe equivalent to die quicker on the ground, or the means to report Killers intentionally spite bleedouting the Survivor. The Kobe bleedout would be a safer option and not have to jump through a bunch of hoops. Also I've had strange pushback against bans for spite bleedouts, even when the standard of evidence is video proof of AFK crows under a hook. That just makes me think anyone against bans for spite bleedouts wants to continue to spite bleedout, because they don't come up with ways to prevent false reports and add on to the idea, they just say "no because X might happen".
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3746286#Comment_3746286
Should there not be some sort of a benefit of the doubt in the sense of we can assume a mechanic is intended as long as we don't have proof of the opposite? Because otherwise we would need to assume that every feature we did not know about was not intended but result of someone messing up the coding...
That would otherwise become quite problematic... For example unknown, how do we know that hitting people through walls is intended? It might just be an exploit that everybody is using right?
That essentially was my point. 'Crouch tech' is intended, unless they come out and say it is a bug like they did with bugtech. People can still call it an exploit, because people might reasonably expect crouching to not magically make you immune to damage from an attack that doesn't have visible verticality (like Vecna's Skeles or another ranged attack), although that doesn't make it truly an exploit.
Unknown's Grenade Launcher is a similar 'probably shouldn't work that way, but they didn't say otherwise' tier of 'exploit' that crouch tech is, or Knight guards seeing Survivors through walls (when technically there was a sliver of a crack in the wall so they technically 'saw' you). All have the argument of 'maybe it shouldn't be that way', but all are currently legit.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3746285#Comment_3746285
I'm not randomly screenshotting all the bs that happens in dbd, otherwise I would have hundreds of picture ranging from glitches, graphic, errors, hackers, hooks that cannot be accessed, two hooks on coldwind 3 m apart form each other to no hooks in 30 m area at all... Why would I even screenshot something like that? Just because maybe eventually someone on the forums wants proof of it?
The difference between it does and it does not is just that "it does not happen" is not something you can proof. The exit gate example is great, I cannot count how many games I had where I downed two or three people close to the gate and barely managed to hook one or two because there were not enough hooks around.
That's fine if you don't believe that, I don't really care about that anyway ^^
You'd screenshot it to report it as a bug here on the forums to get it fixed. They found some hook bugs from such reports and fixed them because of those reports. Same with the gen location. With the picture proof (along with the logs for the Devs) they are able to see, analyze, and fix the problem.
You could also screenshot it to show to your friends (or fellow forum participants) a "look at this bull schenanigans" type of thing. I've done hard recordings of cheaters, but still shared it with my friends afterward to be like "did you know this type of cheat exists?", and we have a laugh together.
What I am saying is that the argument of "I had no choice but to bleed someone out guys, honest" is more often a lie than not. Someone wiggles out en-route to hook and runs back to the corner, feel free to bleed them out, but that isn't the vast majority of actual cases.
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3746028#Comment_3746028
Both are exploiting, just different part of the game basically. It's still an exploit by definition, no?
I mean in the same sense that Billy is 'exploiting' his movement speed to traverse the map. That is working as intended, but most people would clearly not call using something as intended as that an exploit. You can 'exploit' the crow start location as Artist to send the crow up stairs. That's why it is a yes and no. Some people may argue crows shouldn't 'climb', or the power hitboxes should be fully vertical, but that isn't currently how they are designed.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3746017#Comment_3746017
Bold assumption, I had dozens of games where there was only 1 hook around and after it was gone everyone died in the same corner and was therfore bled out there... Hook rng can be really bad... And mideich is even worse because sometimes it spawns hooks that are blocked by random clutter, so you cannot even use them.
I mean every time I see someone claim this, they seem to magically fail to have any pictures to prove that claim (which, if they were winning that easily that they had only 1 person remaining, and needed to bleedout, they had all the time to pickup, look from the corner, hit the screenshot hotkey, then drop safely). The picture that one person posted showed 2 people dead, and they could still reach either the hook above them (or basement below to their right if they rolled the 50-50 on Midwich), or the middle hook from where they downed the 3rd.
I was just downed in a match hours ago as the final person where most people died in the corner with the exit gate, and the Killer still managed to reach the central hook from within the the gates (I barely opened it, but got downed about at the middle pillars).
When I saw BS gen placements I took pictures, and in one case it was egregious enough for me to report. So I'm gunna have to doubt you without a picture to prove it, otherwise my claim is equally trustworthy as a 'trust me bro that never happens'.
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3745666#Comment_3745666
All of those are exploits...
So if we call all of them exploits, the term exploit will be overused instead.
Techs are basically exploits, but they are simply not so game breaking compare to getting invisible etc.
Techs are additional layer of what you can learn in DBD and I believe most of them should stay.
Both yes and no. Crouching to avoid a hit only works because the hitbox isn't programmed correctly/'to match expectations'. Snake from Brawl is a perfect example of similar bizarre hitboxes that are both intended, and yet also absurd and should be considered unacceptable (although Snake is an example in the opposite direction). So it is bad design, and they are exploiting bad design with 'crouch tech', but they aren't exploiting the bad code in a manner like bugtech was.
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@Soultakr13 said:
I am a survivor main, and play killer once in awhile, I see where now the hooks that are broke will now respawn after 60 seconds due to dead spots and killers having issues getting survivors to hooks, so my question is what about the survivors that get caught in those same type areas but pallets have been destroyed? Why not make it fair and have them respawn as well after 60 seconds? And can we do something about the slugging at end game where killers have two left do they down one and leave until they find the other? Why not after 30 seconds if not picked up, we automatically get up to stop this. Please remember it takes 4 survivors to play to one killer, and people get tired of these situations. And if killers cry, changes are made. I’m not crying I just want to see the same consideration for survivors. I love this game, I’m a Xbox player and I’ve been playing since day one. Thanks for your time. I’ll await your feedback.
First off, it would be better off at 240s (to match the 4 to 1 ratio of 60s hook respawn), and arguably they could even be Fragile Pallets (I would have 240s and respawn the oldest pallet, or a 240s CD on each pallet after break to respawn as a fragile pallet). Overall though, it would be equally bad and we shouldn't engage in two wrongs hoping to make a right. Secondly, while the hook respawn is a bad change, it most likely will provide more value to the baby/average bottom 75% than it takes away from the top 25% macro skill. Third, not every change needs an equal opposite side change, because if kill rates are too high, obviously Killer (as a whole or a specific one) would need to be nerfed alone. Fourth, slugging complaints are valid, if there is no Kobe equivalent for slugging, then bleedouts should now be punishable if you provide a certain bar of evidence that you could have been hooked (eg. any afk crows under a hook ending in a bleedout).
@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3745861#Comment_3745861
So let me get this right, I am supposed to drop chase because the guy is running into a hook deadzone? What do you think the other guys will do then? The same perhaps? That is the macro part of the game, to decide whether or not to continue a chase or not, however to say that there should be chases you just cannot win is ridiculous, maybe you throw the game to win the chase, but you should be able to do so, and reach a hook, unless it gets saboed or bodyblocked, there should just not be places that when survivors go there you cannot hook them but need to slug.
If the Survs all are doing that, then they aren't progressing the gens faster than they are running out of pallets. Also if there is a hook deadzone, that means there is/are only 1/2 Survivors left, because 1 dead hook isn't enough to create a hook deadzone, even on Midwich.
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Honestly the perk would have been much healthier if it activated after the pickup is completed. I would have preferred that be the nerf than tweaking the numbers down, because tweaking the numbers doesn't address the core flaw.
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@Yharwick said:
Have you tried picking up an EMP?
The problem with Alien and Singularity is that you are reliant on EVERYONE grabbing the Killer item, not only yourself. If you are being tunneled by these Killers, you better hope the rest of the Survivors are playing interference in a meaningful way. Sadly the game is built around accommodating selfish gameplay by all players, so if you don't get team players in soloq, this exacerbates the problem. This was less bad when stepping in a trap means you get sent to a hook, but when the Killers are designed around teamwork, they are designed around SWF being the only viable opponents to them, with comms or not.
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@Rauy556 said:
Seriously, can someone that shares the opinion of it being too strong or unbalanced please let me know their reasoning? I've seen many claims that this change will increase tunneling and camping rates which I think is really a ludicrous reach.
Also, I have seen people compare hook breaks to survivors 3 genning themselves which I think is not comparable at all for the following reasons: 1) A killer is unable to choose where the survivor wants to get downed, if they want to go to a corner of the map with only 1 hook you cant as a killer stop them. As opposed to 3 gens, which can be identified and broken by the survivors earlier, + the anti - 3 gen mechanic is in the game. 2) Hooking is not meant to be an extremely complicated mechanic to the point where you have to spontaneously plan out which areas have 1 (broken) hook due to them being in the corners and just slug the survivor for 4 minutes.
Furthermore, I really do not understand the claim that this change will lower the killer skill floor, it is not like hooks respawning give you free kills, a killer player still needs to chase, down, and get to a hook (avoiding anti-hook perks or strats) in order to get a hook. Claiming that there is a significant macro skill element to 'spreading' out your hook locations is a bit ridiculous considering the layout and hook spawns of most maps means that often times you only have 1 hook you can realistically make it to if a survivor gets downed in a certain position.
This change is extremely good for improving the quality of life and reducing the amount of frustrating slugging situations due to the conjunction of bad map layout and bad hook spawns. This change will probably have an impact in like 1/20 games.
- Nearly all maps have 2 hooks easily available from corners now, and 5+ hooks possible from most locations
- You are right, it shouldn't be a complicated mechanic. Good thing it isn't, if you kill Survivor they kill the hook. Super simple.
Attrition is a mechanic suffered by both sides. Killers have gens and hooks, Survivors have hook states (most comparable to gens), breakable walls, and pallets (both of these most related to hooks). I honestly think auto-replacing hooks is the equivalent of auto-replacing pallets, so in general, a bad idea. I know this might reduce some bleedouts, but I've recorded Killers staring at me under a hook and still refusing to pick up, so the deplorable people who frequently bleedout are jerks to their core.
Hook removal provides a disincentive for tunneling and camping. If a Killer tunnels someone out, they lack that hook in the area, which slightly impacts their ability to win. If a Killer is camping, that area is a little less defensible if they have to go to a further hook. This was especially bad back when PR worked on every hook, and you could camp into hook trades on the same Scourge hook over and over.
I think this is a bad change individually, but it probably will help baby/average Killers (which constitute 75% of the playerbase), more than it hurts the integrity of the long MMR games (top 25%). Because of that, I'm fine with this change even though I think it is bad. Anyone who previously was resting their laurels on "don't remove skill expression" should be morally opposed to this change, otherwise they prove themselves to be a liar instead. So I guess that's a good unexpected consequence, it will reveal the bad actors also.
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@MrPenguin said:
They are just playing the game. Turning the match into a 3v1 instead of a 4v1 as efficiently as possible is the best way to win.
You're basically asking for them to play poorly on purpose.
We don't expect survivors to do that so we shouldn't expect killers to do that either.
I mean we most certainly expect both sides to play sub-optimally for both sides' enjoyment. We expect Killers to not tunnel, we expect Survivors to heal, we expect Killers to not camp, we expect Survivors to return to the predictable gen in a deadzone, all so both sides have a chance to further interact with one another, which I would argue is the prime source of enjoyment.
We expect Survivors not to t-bag at the gates, we expect Killers not to bleedout the 3rd seeking a 4k, because we expect each other to have the basic human decency to respect one another's time, and chastise them (either in chat or here on the forums) when they act disrespectful.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3745243#Comment_3745243
Taking out your frustrations on people who never did anything to you, - that's not ok, and there is a reason stuff like what he posted is against the forum rules.
Also, im a former killer main that is playing (mostly) survivor now, my understanding for both sides are fine, - thank you.
Actually im often defending killers even when im playing survivor, - because i want a balanced and fun game for both sides.
I don't think you could truly 'take out your frustrations on a person' on a forum, but to be fair I didn't see whatever alleged post they made in the other thread.
I mean by your phrasing, I too would fit the description of Killer main, I just don't self-report as such. It provides much more value to provide arguments and supports for those arguments than just planting your flag for a tribe and calling the other tribe evil, especially when both tribes are members of the same 'nation' (both players of DBD and wanting it to be better).
When people wave a flag, they rarely are defending the merit of their points, they are just dismissing their opposition assuming they are merely waggling a different flag.
I tend to want to minimize the worst experiences, rather than fix multiple smaller things (I tried that once, it was largely ignored). That means the big issues (which tend to be suffered by Survivor) are the ones I complain about most. For example, the most someone can waste your time as Killer is exit-gate T-bag, which lasts 2 minutes max. The most someone can waste your time as Survivor is 4 minutes of Bleedout, twice as bad of an experience (not even exploring that Killer has agency to end it early, and Surv doesn't). I've also tried suggesting catch-up mechanics for Killer when the match is clearly not going their way, but people discarded that because they misread/didn't fully read the limitations. I've reported bugs affecting Killer and Survivor disproportionately. Put simply, I too want the game to be fun for everyone.
I just think that if someone starts off waving a flag on forums, they never intended to actually discuss a problem, they just want people to rally with them against the other flag holder. Saying the equivalent of "lol bro's waving a flag" makes them learn that it provides more value to make a coherent statement/argument, instead of just waving the flag.
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@Caiman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3745295#Comment_3745295
Then you can get cases where a killer has legitimately lost track of where they left a survivor slugged, while said survivor has crawled across the map to die under a hook.
You realize AFK crows exist right? You are worrying about the .0001% chance case more than the 10% chance case to an absurd degree. Like I'd get it if it were 1% to 10%, but the vast vast vast majority of bleedouts (that you could also prove with video evidence under hook) are clearly BM that, 'rules as intended', should be bannable. With video evidence being required, do you really think enough false bans will slip through?
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We should remove the 'insults' bannable offense, and default to opt-in chat. There would be an option in the menus to have chat be toggle-on/off/on, and toggle-on is the default option.
Insults is just the most absurd ban reason, because all it boils down to is people calling others a 'poo-poo head' on the internet (with different words). If being called a 'poo-poo head' is too difficult for someone to manage, they can have chat default off, or click one of like 5 different buttons to end it (continue/close chat/emblems screen/exit game), it's not difficult.
We have Nurse sexually caressing her strangulation victims, Plague/Singularity melting people's faces off, Pinhead flaying people, and more. If a player can handle murder/mutilation/molestation, I think they can handle somebody calling someone else the equivalent of stinky. If the game is M-rated, the chat should be M-rated. (Alternatively we could E-rate the gameplay to match by having everyone be My Little Oni sized, Killers bearhug singing 'rock-a-bye-baby' instead of hitting Survivors, Survivors get put in baby carseats instead of on hooks, and have vomit be rainbow glitter 'YAY's instead.)
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3745058#Comment_3745058
That's really not how sabotages work, if the survivor knows what they are doing. Survivors can just wait for the killer to get near a hook, background player in front of them if necessary, and with Alex's toolbox + speed addons, they get a free hook sabotage. And when survivors do that, then the killer is often forced to drop the survivor.
And sometimes I've seen a survivor sabotage a hook, then run in front of the killer while the killer tries to get to the next hook… and the survivor sabotages that hook too. There's just not enough risk involved, when Alex's toolbox + speed addons are used.
And for reals, there's no such thing as the "superior Sprint Burst". Dead hard is in the top 10 perks, so don't bother trying to convince me that it's a weak perk.
That is how sabotages work if the Killer knows what they are doing and only 1 Survivor is attempting to sabo. If 2 are attempting to sabo, then the Killer can drop and now has 3/4 Survivors occupied, same as with a hook. It doesn't matter how super-duper the Survivor is as long as the Killer hasn't unbound the drop button. Sabos only work to unshoulder to injured if the Killer isn't using their brain.
Maps have so many hooks nowadays I had a day with 2 matches with 3 good sabos (hooks in the direction the Killer was or was heading) on a single carry attempt (and a prot hit on one of them), and the Killer was still able to get the hook on the 4th hook in the area. They are everywhere, and even with BP, you can't be every direction at once.
Oh DH is in the top 10, but Sprint Burst is also in the top 10, and higher on that list isn't it? Doesn't that make it superior? Personally I don't trust DH with latency because I get an above average amount of VPN for lagvantage Killers due to where I live. But even the sweatlord central has SB picked (Multiplicative ~12%, Additive 1.43%) more often than DH. I'm not saying DH is weak, I'm saying SB is stronger, which is all superior means in the context of Exhaustion perks. Lithe is limited by having a vault location and the Killer not corralling you in the direction they want, DH is limited by not being tunneled already into Deep Wound or being healthy and instadowned, but Sprint Burst works as long as you aren't exhausted, but to be fair you are limited by having to use it immediately.
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@Krazzik said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3745022#Comment_3745022
Even if Hetch is closed and the doors haven't been touched, there's at least a chance you could lose them and they get out, whereas if they've been on the ground for a while and haven't UB'd themselves up, there's no chance you'll lose them if they bleed out. It's logically the right move in that situation to bleed them out.
Then have bleedout bans just require you to show (video evidence) you died under a hook when bledout. With that standard of evidence, it shouldn't be an issue.
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@Blueberry said:
It shouldn't break in the first place, much less 60 seconds. It serves no healthy purpose in extended death break times other than making dead zones where you can't hook survivors and forcing them to slug. That isn't good design.
Give me a rational argument why hook breaks on death are a good/healthy thing for the game in any aspect whatsoever.
@AggressiveFTW said:
I don't know why it even has 60 seconds, should never break in the first place.
Why is hook death good/healthy? It provides another macro skill avenue for Killer, discourages tunneling, and discourages camping.
For the macro skill, I am forced to think about my actions and where I want to kill a Survivor. Do I hook them in the quick corner, or risk a sabo/Breakout wiggle going for the far hook (even though 95% of maps have minimum 2 easy hooks equally accessible from every corner now)? Do I use the hook closest to the exit gate, or save it in case they get downed within the gates?
For tunneling, it penalizes early kills because a tool is permanently lost. If I tunnel someone and put them on a Scourge hook, I lose one of my 4 valuable hooks to get my PR/Floods/GoP/etc. on. If I delete a hook, I give the remaining 3v1 the slightest bit of a better chance than a drawn-out loss for Survivor, that it basically is in any match with a Killer who has a modicum of skill, with more than 1 gen remaining.
For camping, I am forced to leave more than 2-square inches of the map (see Scourge hook overlap from above). I can't just merely stick to a 3-gen and hook everyone on the exact same hook, winning without putting forth the effort.
Hooks breaking on Kill is the equivalent of Pallets being dropped/broken for Survivor. You use a resource for a short term gain, but a long term consequence. Hopefully, that short term gain is more valuable than the consequences (otherwise it was a misplay, which should be punished/punishable). Should pallets auto-rebuild after 240s? I think that would be just as much of a mistake as the removal of hook 'death'.
Overall I think the benefit for baby and average Killers outweighs the good of keeping hook 'death', but I still think it is a mistake (on its own). Making both Survivor and Killer more accessible to more players does more long-term good, even if we have to make (taken on their own merit) bad decisions to accomplish that goal. Anyone whose stance is "don't remove high-end skill expression" should be opposed to this change, or that isn't truly their stance (they probably just want tribal changes for their side).
We have had to make a bunch of changes to deal with the repercussions of the Mikaela patch Hatch change. We had to implement 3-gen regression limits, and try to figure out how to have OTR and DS function as altered anti-tunnel deterrents, in order to fill the void that old Hatch left behind. We already had Hatch count as a tie, so even a 3 Hatch escape was a win for Killer (Win/Tie/Tie/Tie). It was anticlimactic, so it didn't feel good (so Killer is naturally disincentivized to tunnel).
I had the foresight to see the Hatch change was bad, but I'm not entirely sure about hook 'death' removal. It could go either way, that's why I'm not rallying to defend it beyond answering people asking things like "why was it a thing in the first place". I'm just afraid this could be a Chesterton's Fence issue, and we should only remove it if we are sure of the consequences.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3743626#Comment_3743626
Weren't you the guy making a thread, that insulted every killer main?
- I think you are the last one that should complain really.
To be fair, I think its fine to admonish Killer and Survivor 'mains', because they lack the understanding of both sides to have a nuanced discussion on most things of merit. (Some people say main though to indicate a preference, so they are fine.)
@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/417898/event-tunneling
This is what happens when the game is balanced in such a way that is necessary at a high level. People see comp matches, and they emulate what they do there. Wouldn't it be better if the game was balanced around hooks and chases instead of kills?
We aren't playing with 4 other tournament caliber players in standard matchmaking, just fellow Long MMR players (since top MMR is ~25% of the playerbase in one bracket), so tunneling isn't remotely near 'required', especially in what is supposed to be the equivalent of an 'unranked queue'. Standard queue is supposed to be where people who want to sweat should sweat whenever events are active. I'm also not saying every match needs to be an 8-hook farming match, just that the need for turbo-tunneling at 5 gens is nonexistent in the event (as well as normals to be honest).
@HerInfernalMajesty said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3744162#Comment_3744162
I’m a Killer main. I play 60/40 Killer but sometimes 50/50. On one hand I agree with you about trying to give Survivors a good game. My secret? Survivors are my weakness. I honestly just want to give them as good of a time as possible. I see myself less as the Killer and more of a Dungeon Master. Survivors want to bring back a 50% KR? Okay, if that’s what they want, they’re my weakness. I love Survivors too much. I like the KR at 60% for theming reasons but again, Survivors are my weakness.
On the other hand… This game only works if it is scary in the sense that you actually can be eliminated quickly. It’s a really tough rope to walk because the Killer has to be threatening enough without being too imposing. So as much as I hear about tunneling, unless the devs change the game even tunneling has its place in a high stakes elimination game. I’ve said it before in another thread but I think it’s so cool that a Killer like Nemesis can have a vendetta against a RE character and only goes for them during the match.
It’s a tough situation because Killers were in a bad spot prior to 6.1 and Killer has to be fun to play right? In a horror game like this the Killer is often times the main attraction. But on the flip side Survivors have to have fun too. It’s tough finding a place where people playing both roles can be satisfied.
Thanks for sharing! And welcome to the forums! 💀🔪🩸😊
Exactly, I also see the Killer as more like a DM role. When I have a DM that says 'you break your weapon/spellcasting focus on Nat 1s', I either only use save spells, or quit the game. When I have a Killer that turbo-tunnels at 5 gens, they are that Nat 1 DM.
I love playing stealth Killers because (imo) it is the only last vestige of horror in the game when played correctly. For me, nothing feels better than getting jumpscared from seeing Ghosty or Myers stalking you from behind and barely reaching the pallet/window in time.
I love doing the goofy slow turns at lockers, or slug races at the gates (but I sacrifice or fake the sacrifice of the loser of the slug race, gotta be a punishment for failure). I tunnel S.T.A.R.S. as Nemmy, or Chris as Wesker. I only need a photo of all Survivors as Ghosty, so if they photobomb a Mori I let them live. When people figure out the 'mini-game' they have a lot more fun than the bog standard gameplay.
I do think that the threat of being eliminated quickly can be accomplished with quick chases, not necessarily the chases being back to back though. Nearly all good horror movies have tension and relief, and permanent tension typically isn't enjoyable.
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I don't think most perks should get this, but I would say BBQ might be a decent exception to the rule. BBQ is typically seen as a healthy perk, that encourages hooks, and gives somewhere to go other than proxy camping. Killer Instinct also means that you can't see the character model to cheese tunnel someone out, so you still have to roll the dice when choosing who to go after. It would probably need an extra 2 seconds to account for not only Lethal, but also KI being harder to catch the start and end of.
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Sadly this was the fix to a more confusing previous problem. Before you could have numerous forms of Endurance, and all would function while Deep Wounded. This was good for being a tunneling deterrent, but bad for game clarity.
Currently Deep Wound serves as a 'they are truly 1-hit down now' marker (barring Mettle of Man), but not anything else. I think that is clear enough, but that means Killers can tunnel too easily off hook and deny anti-tunnel effects.
Arguably they should instead make anti-tunnel Endurance function like Mettle of Man, where you flash white once hit, but no Deep Wound, and remove the Survivor's collision until they do a CA/pallet or blind save (so they can't bodyblock a doorway or effectively protect a fellow Survivor, and honestly saves should be CAs also). The Killer has an easy enough time remembering "just don't chase the exact same person" if they want to avoid it. Also even if a team picks the same character same skin, the Killer can still 'shoulder check' an injured Survivor if another injured Survivor made the rescue.
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@Junylar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3744670#Comment_3744670
If your build is built around aura reading, one single perk actually just makes you perkless. What killer perk can do the same with whole survivor builds?
If a build truly is built around aura reading, then the Killer has enough aura reads that the Survs are perpetually at 0 stacks, so the Killer is safe.
Also the lack of information is also information. When I run Lethal+Iri Cam on Ghostface, by knowing I only saw X people at the start, I know 4-X people have Distortion (with a margin of error for hiding behind gens). By knowing Surv1 is sitting on the gen, I know Surv2 must be Distortioned and heading for the save. Knowing that the last gen to recently pop was in the left corner, I know they have to be in that direction since I downed Surv3 and chased Surv4 towards Surv1 in the right corner. Distortion only fully shuts down people who aren't actively paying attention to the match. If you aren't actively paying attention to the match, why would you care if you won or lost?
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@graveyard_7777 said:
16 perks vs 4 perks. 16 hook stages vs only completing 5 gens. Flashlights for saves and toolboxes for extra gen progress. No wonder some of these killers tunnel. It's completely understandable given the state of the game.
This game will always be Killer sided. I (clearly the gigachad Survivor main, because I portrayed the Killer main as the soyjack) only have a measly 3 hook states compared to the 5 gens I have to solo while the Killer is chasing me. Not only that, but I have to do every gen 3 times (making that 15 total effective gens) because they have so much gen regression. No wonder some of these Survivors SWF with clock callouts. It's completely understandable given the state of the game. /s
Being this tribal clearly isn't helpful, especially when we can see just how easily we can flip the scripts.
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@SleepyLunatic said:
this is the exact mindset why solo q is so trash
This is the exact mindset encouraged by the developers. (Taken from the steam page)
I agree that selfish gameplay is (part of) the problem, but they never disincentivize it, which contributes to making it a larger problem than it needs to be.
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@Beaburd said:
Is this against Nurse/Blight/Billy, or everyone in general?
I have the same experience in pretty much all of my Nurse/Blight/Billy games that, I agree it's a bit discouraging and frustrating. It basically goes like this:
- Spawn in
- They downed and hooked someone in ~30 sec with Lethal Pursuer, high mobility, and high lethality base kit
- They have aura reading to find someone else immediately
- One is now hooked, one is being chased/downed, one is rescuing + healing, and we pray the last is on gens
- This repeats until someone is dead, and there is no 4th
Often though, the 4th is not on generators because they're unsure if they should also rescue, the person being chased scares the 4th off a gen, a gen blocker activated, etc.
And that excludes the possibility that someone disconnects, which does feel like a pretty high chance lately.
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I think a part of this problem is because of how chase-oriented this game has become, and how many tools have been included to force chases early and often (Nowhere to Hide, Lethal Pursuer, Floods of Rage, etc.)
You have killers that are overwhelming in chases being gifted perks that reveal everyone's location and cannot be countered aside from Distortion in most situations, essentially covering their biggest weaknesses. On top of that, the only counter to these perks is Distortion, which, even as a stealth player I hate using due to how uninteractive it is - never mind people who dislike the stealth play style. So I'm not surprised if people feel helpless in these scenarios and even give up more.
Does this matter if every match is nothing but Nurse/Blight/Billy? We need bans if we only get the same 5 Killers in 90% of matches, especially if those Killers are causing teammates to give up at 5 gens/first down.
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I prefer the macro skill of thinking about my final hook location, but I'm fine with this. Now though, bleedouts are 100% unjustifiable, and should be bannable if you have video proof you were hookable and bledout (like being directly under hook).
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Overall the 6.1 needless double nerf victims are all slowly getting one of their double nerfs reverted so they are finally reaching the strength they should have been at after that patch. Bizarre its taking more than 2 years for so many of them. Can't wait to see Self-Care and Thana usable once again though.
@RedPoncho12 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3744667#Comment_3744667
nah iron will 75% was still great (I use it all the time to this day) and am glad that my favorite perk since 2017 is returning to what it once was. It was changed to shake up meta and reduce the amount of people using it (same thing). I do think, if they want change it again… just add another downside, like MAYBE giving the killer a slight advantage with being able to get a lesser bloodhound effect on the survivor who is running iron will. Although I don’t think that’ll be necessary.
I mean with a Bill pic you have to run 75% Iron Will to get normal grunts of pain audio levels, so that isn't saying much.
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EMP nerfs are probably the only bad change, but I'd rather get enough QoL buffs so that console players can actually play him than nothing. If we can get the buffs without EMP changes, then that would be great, but I'm not gunna rally too hard against the EMP changes since they bizarrely link concepts together (see older Mori finisher and self-pickups at 45s).
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I think they both could safely be buffed to 75% and it still wouldn't be too much.