mizark3
mizark3
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@Predated said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3773635#Comment_3773635
Well, the problem there is still that you have to check every single hatchet throw. Pallets and DH are already quite a thing, and they bypass pallets by ignoring the validation at all if the killer gets hit with the pallet first (this is very noticable if you M1 and still injure the survivor, because on the survivor end, the hit still connected).
I mean it would check every hit (ideally). One check every ~20s isn't going to exactly break the server bank methinks, it isn't like an FPS with automatic weapons. To be fair though, I don't have coding experience with programs interfacing with the internet (only local system).
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3773632#Comment_3773632
For the record, I do disagree with the proposed toolbox nerf up there. The better way of nerfing toolboxes to make them worthwhile but not OP is to replace the gen repair speed entirely, maybe with something like protection from regression. Current brown toolboxes aren't worth it for gen repair, but a Commodious with the right addons and perks is completely broken, that kind of variance is very tough to fix just by tweaking numbers.
Regarding medkits, it's a little strange to consider a change "butchering" an item when that item is still very strong afterwards. It's just a little odd to look at something as powerful as medkits and say they're butchered, I don't think anyone who points that out is necessarily being irrational and emotional.
Y'know, mathematically it looks like a brutal change that diminished them entirely. In reality, they're still really good. So, the maths alone can be a little misleading.
Yeah I also am on the same page with Commodious being the problem child. I would almost say making both Alex and Commodious/event 24 charge boxes (and reducing Alex's universal Toolbox Skillcheck bonus from 40% to 16% or the normal 8%) would probably be for the best. Arguably all boxes should probably be 50% repair max, and they get different skillcheck bonuses based on their current % bonus difference (so the 100% Purple would be 50% and 40% skillchecks, the 75% green be 50% and 32% skillchecks, and 50% be 24% skillchecks).
So laid out clearer Proposed Left Current Right
C = Charges, R = Repair Speed, SK = Skillcheck rate (no toolbox is 8% for reference), Sabos unchanged from current, changes bold
Brown 16C 50%R 24%SK | 16C 50%R 40%SK
Yellow 20C 50%R 24%SK | 20C 50%R 40%SK
Commodious 24C 50%R 24%SK | 32C 50%R 40%SK
Mechanic's 16C 50%R 32%SK | 16C 75%R 40%SK
Alex's 24C 10%R 16%SK | 18C 10%R 40%SK
Engineer's 16C 50%R 40%SK | 16C 100%R 40%SK
Overall though, this is getting too far off topic (and probably was multiple posts ago), so I'll let you have the last word here. Also if you want to continue this topic, just start a toolbox specific thread and @ me.
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@Predated said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3773624#Comment_3773624
The deepwound is REALLY difficult to code in without creating more lag tho. The best solution is to simply move the hitbox on hatchets a little to the back of the projectile. That way, there could be like a 0.2 second delay on a survivor getting hit, but a hit would 100% be a hit. While a survivor turning the corner would not get hit.
It would mess with Huntress mains who have the entire throw with muscle memory, but it shouldnt impact their performance.I would disagree. All you need to do is give people (hidden) Endurance by default, and remove it on verification. That fulfills the Deep Wound while injured concept without adding a bunch of new things beyond the verification itself.
Also it would only mess with laggy Huntress mains, who were getting effectively cheated hits, and give them an extra damage state to chew through instead of abusing lag.
Edit: I play at night a decent amount, and also get an above average amount of players VPNing from across an entire ocean, so I really get annoyed by enemy Killers effectively cheating with the bad latency system that favors the Killer almost exclusively.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3773601#Comment_3773601
I mean, not necessarily?
"Butchered" implies that the massive nerf resulted in the thing in question - medkits, here - being actually like. Bad, or terrible, or not worth running. It's worth contesting that considering that medkits are still very good and the second strongest survivor item.
Your maths aren't irrelevant, as the user you're arguing with says, but they are misleading, because they miss that the previous iteration of medkits you're comparing to were overpowered. They took a big hit, yes, but they went from "game breaking" to "decent". The word "butchered" would be an odd one to use for that outcome.
The issue is that an old Purple Medkit could save 32s basekit (2 self heals at 32 possible gen seconds total, vs 64 possible gen seconds from 2 altruistic heals), and now it is saving 8s from a self heal (24 gen seconds self vs 32 gen seconds altruistic). That is 25% of it's former glory in terms of time saved. Now while I agree that med-kit nerfs were necessary, I don't think they should have gotten a 75% nerf. At the very least they should have kept the Purple's skill check bonus, like something.
I would consider anything over a 50% nerf butchered. I think the issue though is whether or not it was justified, which again medkits needed nerfs as you say and I agree, they were overpowered. All of this though is missing the forest for the trees, when we consider the 'best' toolbox does an 8s timesave from purple, or 10.66s from the one Green.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
The thing is, even if it is an 18+ game does not mean that people might not get hurt by things which get said in the EGC. Things like slurs (F-word, N-word) or simply that someone shoudl end themselves can be really dangerous (especially the last thing can be a trigger if said person is already not in a good spot mentally).
That the game is for adults does not mean that people dont get hurt or that we dont have some really awful people in the community.
However, I would say the Chatfilter should be optional. It should be activated by default, but there should be an option to disable it. Because it is indeed not a really good filter and it filters things which are completely fine. So at least for people who can take the slurs and bad words, they should have an option to disable it.
I mean to be honest, if someone is sufficiently mentally fragile that a single word could destroy them, maybe log out of multiplayer games for the time being to be safe than sorry. Who knows if a quick ctrl+ctrl or W+S+W+S would cause undue harm, and why take that risk?
As far as the censor, I agree there should be a button to disable it, that way people are only opting in if they want to. If you uncensor the chat, then you probably shouldn't be able to report someone for comms, since you decided to jump in the mud pit alongside them. I thoroughly enjoy post-game banter, and I know what I am subjecting myself to from a lifetime of online interactions (plus the game already has a disclaimer along the lines of "online interactions not rated by the ESRB").
There should be certain whitelists though for things like "kill her" and "Yun-Jin", because those are clearly normal game stuff.
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Her hitboxes are fine, it is the latency that makes it horrible. 2v8 just reveals a flaw that has existed for a long time, any laggy Killer gets bullschenanigans hits because there is no server verification. The best solution is to add server verification (like during that one patch where pallet stuns had verification). If a server sees someone clearly around a corner from a hatchet, then deny the hit with the verification.
Alternatively, we could do a middle ground, and deep wound on injured hits when server verified. That way you can tell lag hits on injured Survs if you Deep Wound them instead of downing them. You can still get another lag hit to down them, but it gives just enough on the Surv end to know their efforts weren't useless. People forced into far off servers as Killer can still get downs eventually, but would be enough of a disincentive to VPN for a lagvantage like currently happens.
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@Paternalpark said:
How is no one talking about this?
It's a massive buff that makes the stealth part of the game even less viable for survivors.
New tile designs plus this? You just supposed to rush gens then?
All scrach marks needed were color blind filters.
Will be meta like stretch rez was for survivor.
The scratch marks have been bugged and getting worse over time, that this is necessary to return to normalcy. I currently wouldn't blame Killers from using these cringeworthy filters in the current version of the game. Once the scratch marks are fixed though, then any recorded gameplay showing these filters is a self report to being a pathetic sweatlord, and should be called out when seen.
That being said, I don't blame anyone with any form of color-blindness from using these, because I have tried the various color-blind options as scratch marks have been getting worse, and they simply aren't enough. Ideally, we will get full custom colors for objectives/auras, so that way we can set our own preference for Gens (instead of White/Red/Yellow only), and Survivors/Killers (instead of only the pinkish aura).
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3773573#Comment_3773573
The two of you aren't arguing over the math, you're arguing over what the definition of what 'butchered' means in the context of the game.
The complaints about which specific word used to describe a massive nerf is meaningless semantics to the greater point. When I can show things side by side and they are throwing them out because "Your math isn't relevant.", then they are showing it is because it is an emotional reaction, not a logical one.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3773026#Comment_3773026
Your math isn't relevant. I see so many people use medkits, that they obviously haven't been butchered. Do you know what has been butchered? Ultimate weapon, that I've literally seen zero times since the latest nerf. That's what butchered means…where it's so bad that people don't want to use them anymore. Meanwhile, I see medkits galore, so obviously many people still think they are good.
And Alex's Toolbox is by far the best sabotage toolbox, so you shouldn't even be using a 32 charge toolbox for sabotages if you are going for the best choice. And if Alex's Toolbox really needs to be 18 charges, then just turn all the 32 charge toolboxes to 16 charges, and call it good enough. Because let's be real here… when we have 16/16/16/18/32 charges for regular toolboxes, the 32 is way out of line.
I mean by saying math isn't relevant you acknowledge you aren't logically attached to your position, but emotionally attached. I can't logic someone out of an emotional belief, and logic is my only tool to persuade.
I would argue against the sabo point, but as stated above, my tools are math and logic, and you aren't swayed by those. Although I do agree 32 is way out of line when they needlessly nerfed Alex from 24 to 18. Alex should be returned to 24.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3772933#Comment_3772933
Medkits aren't butchered. I still see a lot of people use them.
Similarly, changing all toolboxes to be 16 charges, won't butcher them either. They'll still be useful for repairing generators, and they can still easily sabotage hooks.
Medkits not butchered? Lets look at them new left, old right.
Brown: 1 self heal/1.5 ally heals 35% altruism | 1 heal, 25% altruism
Yellow: 1 self heal/1.5 ally heals 40% altruism | 1.5 heals, 35% altruism
Green: 1 self heal/1.5 ally heals 45% altruism | 1 heal, 50% all
Purple: 1 self heal/1.5 ally heals 50% altruism | 2 heals, 50% altruism, skill check zone sizes buffed 16%/15% Good/Great
So we went from actual variety, to a boring 5% altruistic per rank. How did they not get butchered? I mean heck, why did they even need to get rid of the Purple skill check bonuses (especially since they reduced healing Greats from 5%[1s] to 3%[0.6s] as well separately)?
Even if we can get past that, how could 16 charge toolboxes do anything of value? Sabos would NEED to be dropped to 2-3 charges per sabo, as with 6 per sabo that only allows 2(.66) sabos per box. Even then, if we were to take the Brown +50% up to the Purple +100% (which are already 16 charges each), they only yield 5.33s→8s of saved time (to not get into the skillcheck aspect). As I've already explained, a Brown Medkit saves 8s, so why should the best Toolbox only be as good as the worst medkit?
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@Peanits said:
Moris are very flashy animations which reveal a little about the Killer performing them. They currently don't come into play very often since they require an Offering or for a Perk with specific conditions to be used. We'd like for them to be a little more present in the game, and having them happen at the end of the match feels like a fitting and cinematic way to close out a match without affecting gameplay too heavily.
However, I want to stress the fact that this upcoming version is not the same system that was tested before. This version has been significantly scaled back after we received feedback. We will share more once this update is a little closer.
The largest flaw of the old version IMO was the lack of Killer agency when getting the final down (with only 1 Surv). Can you tell us if we have a Mori/Mercy mechanic at least (to give the Survivor Hatch if we want)? If you can't tell us, can you at least relay the concept (Mori or Mercy) to the team responsible?
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@ReverseVelocity said:
Y'all are getting penalties for that error? Whenever I've had it I've gone back to the lobby without a DC.
At least I think, that might just be the 1 minute timer running out before I hit the main menu.
If it's giving penalties then I agree, they absolutely need to add an exception for these cases.
Like you said in the 2nd line, the issue is the first DC penalty done by the time you can actually get back to queue up again after reconnecting. It is obviously visible when you had to DC to avoid a bleedout in a prior match, and the minute timer would be less than the 4 the Killer was obviously going to waste of your time. Then the server DC forces you to wait (5m?). (It happened to me a while ago, but I haven't been playing enough to get hit by it recently.)
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3772224#Comment_3772224
Survivors stacking generator stuff, is only a problem because 32 charge toolboxes exist. None of the survivor generator perks or addons need to be changed, if all the toolboxes are set to 16 charges. And yes, it's the same concept of medkits, where they needed to be made more similar in order to properly balance them.
And if it's ok to evaluate killer generator perks as if a killer is running a full slowdown build, then we need to evaluate survivor generator perks/item/addons as if a survivor is running a full generator build. And it doesn't matter if toolboxes were already nerfed in the past, because many things in this game get nerfed more than once.
We're basically having a huge double standard here, where we evaluate killers when they are being their most optimal (i.e. the optimal slowdown build), but then we evaluate survivors based on them being average and inefficient (i.e. just having a toolbox with zero generator perks).
I mean again, changing all toolboxes to 16 charges would be a short-sighted foolish mistake. Medkits could have been made more similar without butchering them, and yet still in their butchered state being more powerful than 32 charge toolboxes when add-ons are included for both.
You are misunderstanding the circumstances. We didn't nerf gen slowdown because of the potential for all gen slowdown. We nerfed slowdown because too many people were bringing all gen slowdown. When 3/4 Survivors start bringing the sweatlord gen builds, like Killers were, then we can nerf the Survivor sweatlord gen builds. When only 1 person per lobby (max) is bringing the sweatlord gen build, it is equivalent to 1.5 gen slowdown at most.
There is no double standard, because we aren't balancing around the worst case scenario, we are balancing around the most frequent/common scenario. If we were balancing around the worst extremes, there would have been Killer bans for Survivor by now, Map bans for Killer by now, bleedouts would give the Killer a temp ban, hiding without touching gens for 10m would result in an entity kill and a temp ban, and more.
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Looking ahead at Plague, there are 2 main problems with Plague.
1. Deleting Altruism from the game.
There is nothing worse than bringing a medkit or heal tome or heal perks, for the match to be better off hard DC-ed than played through. Maybe progress infection like EMPs, where it 95's itself, and Plague needs to manually puke up the remaining 5%. It could also make Red Puke still instadown people at 95% infection, just as a special interaction. The Brown add-on can make things function like they currently do, and 100% infect from working on gens. Just don't make 25% of the Survivor gameplay deleted because the Killer picked that person to play as.
2. Puke tapping gens/gates to prevent players from interacting with them EVER (moreso a soloq problem)
All I'd ask is a Killer item like EMPs to be grabbed from fountains, when used, it can cleanse 1 person and all objects within 3m, and prevent reinfection on objects for 10-30s (0s for the Brown meme add-on). It would still give the Plague her power at fountains when the item is retrieved, but prevent the soloq problem where all your teammates are waiting 40s/60s/70s/80s/90s/100s/110s to play the game, depending on add-on combos.
One minor gripe about Plague and all Killer infection mechanics: Please make Calm Spirit (or some perk) silence puke sounds. There isn't a single counter to puke sound effects, and plenty of people with Emetophobia simply can't deal with them. A perk from a starting Survivor makes that easily accessible to all players, and also makes the perk less useless. It also doesn't stack more power on Iron Will, so you'd need to bring 2 perks if you wanted to counter grunts of pain AND puke sounds/screams.
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@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3772382#Comment_3772382
And this is the other thing that's wrong with trying to discuss this. Blaming bad game mechanics on the player.
No, it has nothing to do with skill when I say that playing nice as Myers against the 4 man will net you a loss.
In fact if you say otherwise then that's just a self report.
I guess every time Otz camped with Trapper, it was his fault because he simply didn't have enough skill. It's not like literally everything was leaning towards the survivor's favor.
I used to think that way, that playing 'nice' as Myers will make you lose, and then I practiced different strategies. This is the main reason Clown is actually quite powerful. Clown knows how fast he (with Yellow) and Survivors (with Purple) are going, and they will never be as experienced as the Clown player with those speeds. Y'know the Bruce Lee fear the man who practiced 1 punch 1000 times concept.
I did the same with Myers, and started developing different builds until I came upon Thana+Plaything+Penti+(Personal preference) and no Tombstones (add-ons also personal preference). Most players haven't played against that, and thus you can be the 1000 punch Myers. You will win the majority of your matches (even against 4-mans), just by your expertise over your opponent's in playing within this particular mud pit.
Also what is a self-report of what, self-awareness and the willingness to improve? Gosh darn yuh got me!
@WolfyWood said:
I wish people who made these threads posted proof of them being high MMR.
Without any substance these threads just look like being upset at losing or being upset at potentially losing more in the future.
To be fair I would grant that for free for anyone at 4 digits worth of posts, and the vast majority of 3 digit posters. There was a study that basically found that the people willing to engage online (beyond only logging in to play), such as discussions, are within the top half of players more or less by default (with outliers of course, like lore junkies). Top-MMR (being who can matchmake with each other) is merely the top 25% of the playerbase, unlike things like other game's top echelon being the top 1%, top 0.1%, or even better. (Eg. League of Legend's top rank of Challenger is 0.02% according to a quick google search.)
The difference is when climbing, you probably get players like 60/55/45/40 matched against a 50 Killer, which is an average 50vs50, with people both better and worse than the Killer. With the very start of top MMR, you instead get (best case scenario) 75/75/75/75 against a 75 Killer. That means there are no Survivors worse than the Killer, that the Killer is able to exploit. That isn't even taking into account that it might need to draw a 90/85/80/76 against that 75 Killer just due to matchmaking times (where every Survivor is better than that Killer). This 75 Killer scenario is where I think the majority of non-QOL complaints about Killer come from.
If the Killer climbed by stomping the weaker Survs, they never learned the tools to win against stronger Survs as well. That's what anti-tunnel and anti-camping measures 'fix', the tools weaker Killers use to cheese wins against better Survs.
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You only have to play dirty to win if you lacked the skill to beat them in the first place. Take the chance and learn from the loss. The next match will be closer, and the match after that even closer, until you will win instead.
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@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3772340#Comment_3772340
you dont need to be a clock swf in order to abuse these changes.
I play with my swf and we are not insane at survivor, but every time a killer plays "nice" and spreads hooks we always just genrush them. It's not that hard to take advantage of the fact that the killer is keeping it a 1v4 for the majority of the game.
I mean you can't really abuse hook duration if the Killer was playing the 'correct' way against SWF anyways. This will just teach them not to rely on camping as much, which will also improve soloq QOL. Once the Killers that relied on camping adapt, then they will be able to win without abusing the 'ez-win against soloq' strats.
Also spreading hooks is a great strategy. You get to test the waters, and put pressure on the weak link to create deadzones. Then you can intercept hook rescues (on anyone from anyone) to force another to hop off gens. If you have too many hook stages and plenty of gens to spare, take a bad chase and try something new to turn that into a future good chase. That's how I got my winrate, which is well above the balanced around amount. Adversity is good, its where you learn and improve. If a Killer is crutching on strats that mostly win against soloq, then they have no right to complain when they never entered the physical therapy of spreading hooks and the crutches are finally removed.
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@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3772328#Comment_3772328
SWF/ good teams are not as rare as you think they are. 1/100 is not nearly the amount of SWFs I get more like 1 in 5.
And even if it was 1/100, your argument is still "change good because players bad". That's not the proper way to balance a game.
Not all SWFs are clock SWFs, and not all SWFs are 4-mans. IIRC from BHVR's stats, 5% of matches are 4's. I'd say minimum 50% are just goofing off with their friends. Then among the remaining half, how many are utter garbage at the game regardless of how hard they try? When you get through all the filters, I was being generous to give you 1/100 of matches being clock SWFs.
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@Leonardo1ita said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3771559#Comment_3771559
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3771634#Comment_3771634
Not on all killers. The best play is still, and always be 99,999% of the times, to go back to the hook.
There needs to be an "incentive", a reward, for getting different hooks.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3771560#Comment_3771560
Problem: if they don't tunnel then survivors can immediately negate the pressure with Resurgence, and heal in 3 seconds with a medkit. So there is no option.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3771565#Comment_3771565
This seems more fair, even if I would have done different durations for the different hook phases.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3771566#Comment_3771566
Exactly, which doesn't solve anything really. It just punishes low tier and mid tier killers for no reason.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3771582#Comment_3771582
Yep.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3771583#Comment_3771583
"They fail to realise though that making the hook stages 70s will hurt killers who dont camp more than it will hurt killers that do. Every time you hook someone the rest of their team has an extra 10s on a gen before they have to go unhook that person. That's more progress than a Surge proc, for example."
EXACTLY THIS. Couldn't explain it better.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3771590#Comment_3771590
If survivors leave the teammate reach second stage, not saving them, USUALLY there is something that went wrong in their macro pressure. Which is why, imo, if that happens, the second stage should be shorter, being 50 seconds.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3771596#Comment_3771596
Now it's not even "16 seconds later they healed", it's 2/3 seconds with Resurgence HAHAHAHAHA. So to avoid it you gotta stay super close to the hook.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3771598#Comment_3771598
In comp this is LITERALLY terrible. Literally terrible. Awful change.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3771610#Comment_3771610
EXACTLY. Commodious toolboxes are still so so broken.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3771632#Comment_3771632
Alright, then you don't really know how insanely fast some generator builds make the game go.
You know what, fine....just give the killer a funny little perk that, when you hook a survivor they go directly second stage, why not. What could go wrong...
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3771634#Comment_3771634
Pretty much. Yeah, why shouldn't a mistake be punished?
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3771636#Comment_3771636
EXACTLY. It's just a big boost for smart survivors.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3771643#Comment_3771643
Yep.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3771648#Comment_3771648
Exactly: make Kindred basekit.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3771673#Comment_3771673
I don't know if it's a joke or not, but unironically this would actually kill camping.
If anything, hook stages should be extended if you were left on hook, not shortened. That would basically only mean one thing, a Killer is 17m facecamping the only doorframe, in which case they don't deserve more than their 1k. However, I can see people abusing this if there are 4 alive and 1 gen remaining, then the 7th hook is a fresh hook on the final Surv. Overall both cases would probably be better off if we didn't make an adjustment.
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@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3772227#Comment_3772227
- That's still insanely strong.
- SoloQ being bad does not mean the perk is bad, Reassurance is a top 3 perk with swf
- SoloQ being bad does not mean the perk is bad, Kinship is another amazing swf perk
- Whether it was buggy or not, its still another change which helps survivors with camping
- Maybe in that specific circumstance of being hooked in the basement by a Bubba (which is honestly the survivor's fault for going down near the basement against that killer) the anti-camp makes the killer go away from the hook a little bit, meaning saves are much easier.
- DS still obliterates M1 killers and some M2 killers still have to catch up.
Your argument of "but solo q bad" is not sound because solo q has always been ######### regardless of what they add. Theoretically they could add 100 sec godmode off hook and it could still be backed up by the defense of "solo q bad'".
But I guess I can see why you're mentioning Solo Q because if you're going against potatoes all day then you DO have the time to play "correctly". I am not including bad players in this argument. Obviously Solo Q players will go down insanely quickly to mouse 1 killers but that's because Soloq players are terrible.
Please go against a good team and try to go around the map, going for many chases as a mouse 1 killer and record the results. I think you will learn something.
These changes do nothing for Soloq because solo q is and always has been trash no matter what. All they do is buff swf when they dont need it.
Everyone is always going against predominantly soloq. Your complaints only have merit if you are sweating in scrims. Otherwise the vast majority of matches will easily be winnable, and if you want to improve, simply chase the best player of the lobby. If you want to complain about the 1/100 match that you get a clock calling SWF, then just say you want to balance around the top 1%, and the remaining 99% of people shouldn't have a voice.
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- Basekit BT doesn't stack with ALL other Endurance due to a foolish change, so you only get 1 Endurance proc per hook (thus negating ALL Endurance other than the first one).
- Reassurance requires 6m of distance from the hook, and often loses the Survivors more gen time since it doesn't glow on the HUD, requiring visual confirmation in soloq.
- Kinship nearly never gets value for similar reasons to #2.
- Hook Grab Removal was a laggy feature that was as bad as OG Hatch standoffs, and encouraged camping on the off chance you get lucky.
- Anti-camp meter is near never providing real value, as even Insidius Basement Bubba can merely camp the stairwell instead.
- DS still self-stuns for ~2s, meaning the '4s' stun is really only 2s being usable to the Survivor, which rarely is enough to avoid most Killer's M2. It would literally be better stunning both Killer and Survivor for 20s each, and guaranteeing the Survivor to be slugged after the stun runs out.
The idea of it being a 'skill issue' and not a 'coordination issue' is laughable. Soloq has no coordination, and is more than half of Survivors found in matches. That means regardless of skill, half of the players simply don't have the coordination to make use of the value these features can provide. Weak skilled Killers have long abused this lack of coordination, instead of gaining more skill in chase or macro. I win more than 74% of my matches before the gens even pop*, and I main Ghosty (followed by [in no particular order] Legion, Clown, Myers, Trapper, Dredge, and then more powerful Killers less often than those prior). You literally DO have the time to play correctly without camping or tunneling. Failing to learn that skill is the only reason that players using those Killers couldn't win consistently (consistently being anything above the 60% kill rate).
*Gen Defense counts the % of games where you win before the final gen pops as Killer. (Which means it doesn't include games where you win after the final gen pops.)
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@Coffeecrashing said:
It should have been implemented with an update for toolboxes, that changes all toolboxes to only have 16 charges.
Generator speeds are too quick, when survivors stack generator perks/addons with a 32 charge toolbox.
Gen speeds were fine with 80s gens and 25% max Pop and 0% basekit on kicks. Gen speeds were fine with 90s gens and 30% current Pop and 5% max basekit on kicks. Gen speeds only weren't fine with 4 gen slowdowns, or things that were effectively 4 gen slowdowns (infinite respawning Ruin+Undying without perfect RNG), and insta full gen BNPs. We hard deleted BNP's capabilities, but we couldn't do the same with gen slowdown.
Toolboxes come pre-nerfed compared to every other item in the game, due to how their bonus works. You get the % bonus for the X charges worth of progress, not X seconds. That means a 50% 32 charge toolbox is only progressing 32 charges in 21.33s (and draining it to 0 toolbox charges), or in other words, saving 10.66s. A Brown medkit takes 24s to self-heal compared to the base altruistic heal of 16sx2 or 32s, saving 8s. That means the best gen toolbox is only ~33% better at saving time than the worst medkit.
@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3771656#Comment_3771656
Killer generator perks have been nerfed multiple times. And sometimes we are directly told it’s because killer generator perks need to be balanced around the possibility of killers stacking multiple of them together.
The same should apply to survivor generator perks/item/addons. The survivor generator stuff should be balanced around the possibility of survivors stacking multiple of them, and the fact that some toolboxes have 32 charges, is what causes all the stacking issues.
And let’s be real here. My only suggestion was for all toolboxes to have 16 charges, and that would make me happy. We don’t need to slippery slope here, that I’ll keep moving the goalposts until survivors auto-lose every game. Literally just make all toolboxes have 16 charges…… that’s it.
Killer gen slowdown perks were nerfed because too many sweatlord Killers were stacking 4 gen slowdown and ruined the game for the rest of us. I used to comfortably run only PR on Ghostface as my sole gen slowdown. I still do, but I used to too. If there was a unique perk buff (that only applied to gen slowdown) then that would be ideal. Something like 25%-50% more regression/longer blocked durations (respectively) if that is the only gen slowdown perk selected. That also means it could still function with Killer add-on forms of regression (for the rare few they deem 'worthy'/'deserving' of having such an add-on). Personally I don't stack Driver's License with PR, and use one or the other, but the option would be available for people.
The flaw of all Toolboxes having the same amount of charges is the same flaw of all medkits having the same amount of charges. It was a mistake, and I'd hoped we had learned from it. Medkits needed a nerf, but not the boring one we got. The Purple should have kept 32 charges, and the Green should have lost the self-inefficiencies (and remain at 16 charges). All the medkits are now pathetically dissimilar, and we don't need the same mistake to be applied to Toolboxes, especially given the (in)efficiency of Toolboxes as is. I would only agree to such a change if Sabo's were dropped to something like 2-3 charges per Sabo. Nerfing charges also nerfs Sabos, and any theoretical Toolbox nerf should only target gen progression. Nerfing Alex's Toolbox charge count was also a mistake in the Sabo rework patch.
Survivors stacking items is a bit different of an issue, and the 2v8 class mechanic is a good limiter (no more than half of the lobby can be one class). Maybe try 2 of the same class of item per lobby, although make it known if your item is 'disarmed'. Maybe I need a heal tome, and I'd need to back out to use my medkit in a different lobby. Alternatively, only allow items and characters to be changed before you ready, but that might be annoying unless we had a strictly ranked mode for that limitation, and an unranked mode without.
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@Rulebreaker said:
So, if you're the last one alive with no chance for hatch or doors, would you rather be slugged or hooked? With the change people who would hook you can now actually do so since there won't be dead zones.
I mean the issue is I've recorded games where I crawled under hook and the Killer still would refuse to hook*, as they stalked my slugged body as I slowly reached under the hook. The problem is one of two issues. A: Make clearly intentional bleedouts a bannable offense, or B: Make Survivors be able to speed up bleedout death or remove DC penalty once some time is reached like 3-AFK crows on a slug.
*Sometimes refusing to hook at all, sometimes waiting for 3m59s to be extra spiteful in a match where we had an AFK from the start known to the Killer.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
Should have been implemented alongside the increase of Gentime.
If someone does not (proxy)camp a lot, they wont see a difference. Someone who relied on camping a lot will have a worse time. Which is a good thing.
I think 60s→65s of hooktime was warranted with 80s→90s of gentime. I initially thought and equal time change was the right call (back when they first floated the idea of 90s gens), but now I think 65s is enough to match the gen time. I would also say the anti-facecamp grace period would also be a fine equal 'paused timer', so with the current 7s, we could have 67s per stage. I wouldn't want to go above that though.
Also with @Reinami pointing out, gens got a 12.5% increase, so hooks getting an equal 12.5% increase to 67.5s would mathematically be 'just right'. That would probably be better than me just going off 'vibes'. -
@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3771012#Comment_3771012
Just like the 8 regression limit, it will only cause significant kill rate changes in those too stubborn to change their gameplay in the face of new changes.
You can change your build to limit how much affected you are by 3-gen feature, but you have to kill survivor sooner or later. That's not about a build, you simply have to do it, if you want to win.
the feature wouldn't count your SWF as dead, as long as your SWF is still in the lobby.
So they leave? I am not able to force soloQ out of the lobby, but I can tell that to my teammate on discord... It's more likely to work for me than with some petty randoms.
Also, while tunneling is something Killers do, it is something they do in order to cheese out a win they were unequipped to earn otherwise
I would call this only for killers who go for tunnel since 5 gens. It's normal and expected to get someone out of the game when you get low on gens.
99% of the sudoku's on hook I've seen
Nice number, but no… You think survivors are not giving up because of team mates? You can't really believe that...
The fix to that is Killer bans
Lol, no. It also wouldn't fix anything. Survivors give up for so many reasons...
Essentially the (meaningful) deletion of DS, overpowered regression in 6.1, the 2nd strongest gen slowdown meta in the form of Pop/PR/Deadlock/Grim Embrace
So there was never a basekit carrot... All of those are perks, nothing was ever done to give killers reason to spread hooks.
If you think perks are enough, then DS and OTR are enough to fix tunneling.
That's the thing, it pretty much does
So we forgot about survivors constantly giving up? That has nothing to do with tunneling.
And unless you go slugging in advance, it is risky to wait until 1 gen left before you find and kill someone.
but since you weren't even willing to come up with a suggestion like that shows I'm doing all the heavy lifting here.
Why should I help with feature I am against? I think this concept is flawed from start. There is multiple other features I would rather do to help soloQ without punishing killers.
I think this is a far as we can get on this topic, I'll provide a response to each of your sections, but I won't respond on this thread unless specifically requested to. Feel free to reply to these, but again, make sure to let me know if you want another reply back. (I'll also copy and paste this section on the end just in case.)
You can't change your build around Killing a Survivor - But you can go for 8 hooks to delay/prevent the feature, and bring Nowhere to Hide/Iron Maiden/Ultimate Weapon in one of your slots if stealth is a fear.
SWF can just leave anyways - I think you misunderstand my suggestion. There would be 2 flags: A or B. If a group partied up, they can get one of these flags, but if they are solo, then don't get the flag. The possible combos are 4 (all A), 3+solo (3s are all A), Duo+solo+solo (Duo is A), and Duo1+Duo2 (Duo1 is A, Duo2 is B). Once you die and leave, if someone that shares your flag (your SWF) is still in the game, it doesn't count them as fully 'gone' until ALL of flag A/B are gone. That would make it so that SWFs can't cheese the system. I personally would also tie the endgame lobby Killer perks to this same system. That way, once a noob died in soloq, they can read the perk that was the cause of their death, and go 'oh so it wasn't a cheater', and carry on. When I was super duper new, I found it awfully suspicious that the only matches I lost were where the Killer used a likely 'hidden-perks cheat', but it was really just the game delaying them to be revealed until everyone is dead. When playing solo, once you are dead, there is no reason to delay the perks being shown, and this system would allow for 2 birds with one stone.
Normal to kill someone at low gens - I don't disagree, but the issue is whether they were tunneled or not that I am taking issue with. When someone gets 8 hooks (without a kill), it naturally means the gens are likely somewhat low (1-3 remaining), thus a spread hook delay ensures turbo-tunneling is impacted, and normal matches are not.
People giving up early reasons - I didn't say people don't give up for a variety of reasons, I just said that the most common source I've seen is from Killer Identification, and exaggerating for emphasis. It would likely be closer to 90% Killer ID, 7-9% bad chase situation (like lag or a pallet stun+getting hit or zigging when they should have zagged), and 1-3% of seeing a corner crouching Mikaela at 5 gens. The issue is I call these 'giving up early' and I believe you are using 'give up on hook'. Since I use 'giving up early', that means giving up for Hatch doesn't factor in, because the game is already over in either a Hatch, death, or lucky/skilled stealth Gate. That also means if someone sees that baby Mikaela corner crouching, unhooked, while the team has 6 hooks at 5 gens, yeah that isn't giving up early, but they did give up on hook due to their teammate (not playing the game).
Killer bans wouldn't even help - It would reduce the greatest % of what I've seen be the root cause for DCs/death Kobes. IMO, people ragequitting are from reaching a breaking point of dealing with bullschenanigans. With Killer bans, you can minimize the worst of experiences, and maintain match integrity. Say I play against "Killer I hate 1", and it fills 50% of my ragequit bar, then I get another match against "Killer I hate 2" and it fills 30% up to 80% of my ragequit bar. If I face "Killer I hate 1/2", a corner crouching Mikaela, or a VPNing Killer, that fills the remainder of my ragequit bar, and I hard DC or Kobe. If I Kobe'd, then maybe I play another, but my patience is already worn thin to breaking, and I likely would ragequit again if a single thing is frustrating. Killer bans prevents that major 50% and 30% of hatred to fill people's ragequit bars.
You are talking about Basekit Carrot, I listed perks - I mean technically true. The issue is I assume that for most people, the fun of the game comes from chase (or to be more accurate, outplaying your opponent). If that is the case, that fun comes from chase, then the basekit carrot already exists. Chasing the same person is trying the same cake, but chocolate gets boring when you only each chocolate. Chasing someone else gives that variety, that spice, such that now they get to taste vanilla, or strawberry, and maybe the illusive (your favorite cake flavor here, I'll use cookies and cream). If people can't be trusted to do what is in their own good, then we have to push them to eat cookies and cream by blocking off the path to base chocolate the 27th time in a row. The carrot has always existed, and they could pick all 4 cake flavors of any match, but by focusing on 1 flavor, Killers have denied themselves the remaining 1-3 delicious flavors. As far as perks, I think DS at 5s, and OTR stacking with basekit BT works, not our current 4s and BT denying OTR.
Survivors giving up will have too large an impact (if I understand your point of this section) - The purpose is to have the change have enough of an impact (unplayable <1% → playable 30%) to get people to still play, while not having enough of an impact (keeping the theoretical 30% less than 40%) to make it easier to win without a 4th. If someone gave up at 5 gens, it simply makes it a 3 gen match with 3 Survs. Fair enough for both sides to not give up. If someone gave up at 1-2 gens and 4-8 hooks, it still would likely be fair enough for both sides to not give up, especially with the system only allowing a different result (with the delay) when a Survivor stealth god cheesing a 99'd gen at 2 gens remaining after 2+ minutes of waiting, and a Killer who turned off their headset and/or monitor.
Other features that don't punish Killers - I mean I don't view this as punishing Killers in and of itself, but finally providing a punishment for the worst of Killer behaviors (and with systems like a delay, preventing normal Killers being caught in the crossfire).
I think this is a far as we can get on this topic. Above was a response to each of your sections, but I won't respond any further on this thread unless specifically requested to. Feel free to reply to these and take the last word, but again, make sure to let me know if you want another reply back. (I'll also copy and paste this section on the top just in case.)
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3770761#Comment_3770761
This wouldn't shift kill rates from 60% to 30% or anything drastic enough to actually warrant a full deletion/patch revert if stress-tested properly.
So it's going to affect up to 90% is solo/duo/trio players and is not going to change kill rates? How that works?
Also why it wouldn't work for 4 SWF? I would say I will be able to get most value as 4 man instead.
But killing is something you have to do and tunneling is something many killers use at some point. This feature would regularly give 1-2 additional escapes compare to now. Well, so I would guess 5-20% lower kill rates, depends on specific killer.
Like how do you want to balance that, when it is going to screw kill rates, which it would? Make gens even longer than now? Well, that wouldn't make survivors happy...
deny them that chance if they griefed them to their death
If you didn't notice, suicides on hook are regular thing. So that player is griefing in my opinion. You think they are going to be in mood to help teammates? Doubt it....
In my opinion, this is the vast vast vast majority of SWFs, just people goofing off with friends, not clock callout players.
We rarely go for clock call outs, because we are lazy. You don't need it.
If you have 4 players who work on gens whenever possible and won't get downed in 10 seconds, you are going to escape regularly. No need for difficult callouts.
Would you say the 8 regression limit also disavantages weak Killer players?
It affects all killers. All killers need to kick gens...
What this limit is affecting most are perks. I can still hold a 3-gen with correct perks and killer. It won't be an hour, but it's possible to win on many killers with it..
And we definitely doesn't need NOED basekit.
The issue is we have tried the carrot, and sadly, it hasn't worked.
Oh really, what is the carrot? What were basekit changes that gave killers reason to spread hooks?
Give me BBQ BP effect basekit, that was the carrot, which got removed.
Most Killers aren't intentionally turbo-tunneling
This doesn't affect only turbo-tunneling. You have to kill survivors to win a game. This bug doesn't care how and when you killed them.
Survivors also like to give up quite fast. Well, killer will be affected as well for this.
It will change gameplay but won't significantly alter kill rates - Correct! Just like the 8 regression limit, it will only cause significant kill rate changes in those too stubborn to change their gameplay in the face of new changes. Since most people are this irrationally obstinate, most of the numbers will be barely tweaked. There will be 1/1000 matches where the stubborn individual lets 2 extra Survivors go compared to normal, and the rest wouldn't be meaningfully impacted.
As far as SWF, we've been through this, the feature wouldn't count your SWF as dead, as long as your SWF is still in the lobby. If there was a duo and 2 solos, when both duos leave, the 2 solos get the benefit for both.
Also, while tunneling is something Killers do, it is something they do in order to cheese out a win they were unequipped to earn otherwise. There would be a short term drop (just like the 8 regression limit) before people learn to adapt and stabilize their winrates back to where they were. So basically a 1-month drop, then people would be right back to the average 60%. No major counter-balance needed other than time for people to adjust.
Do I think a 'griefer' would help their teammates - Depends on the context. 99% of the sudoku's on hook I've seen, are from someone going "I'm not play a Nurse/Blight/Dull Merchant game, I'm going next, best of luck guys". The fix to that is Killer bans, but since we are so allergic to the idea of longer queues for massive QoL improvements for both sides (since I won't get people who don't want to face me if I decide to do a Dull Merchant tome/achievement), that fix likely won't come to pass. Even in that predominant scenario I've seen across my soloq games, they would hard DC to give me, their randomly assigned soloq teammate, a bot instead, if there were no DC penalties. So they are only 'counter-griefing' the Killer for an guaranteed unfun match, and would still give their former teammates the best chance that doesn't hurt them personally. That's why psychologically, you need to make it default on, button for off. That way they have to commit to a hard 'no I don't like you' to prevent the feature.
You need 4 people to be consistently on gens, and not go down in 10s - The problem with that is both the raw number of friends you have that play this game, and matchmaking. In SWFs, typically not everyone is the exact same skill level, which allows this to be possible. Similarly for soloq and skill levels. In a normal match, as long as their is one weaker player, then they drop pallets or go down in chase way too quickly, which prevents the pallet for the rest of the team, or forces them off a gen (towards the pallet deadzone the now hooked Surv created), and results in another cyclical down. Most people are carrying their friends over from different games, where person 1 might be the best at DBD, then person 2 the best at Counter Strike, person 3 being the best at Strategy games, and person 4 always being the worst at every game but they appreciate his/her company. Unless your claim is that most people develop friends on a game by game basis, and don't play different games with their friend group as the norm, that means there always is a significantly weaker player in SWFs, able to lose the game single-handedly from macro snowball.
8 regression limit 'affects' all Killer players - Gotcha, so it doesn't disadvantage them after they have learned to work around the mechanic. Thank you for proving my point. As far as the NOED suggestion, that tells me you never read past the title (as one of the first sentences said something to the effect of 'clickbait title, details listed below'), but conceptually it isn't that far from the gen bug becoming a feature. It would be a catchup mechanic for when a side would have no hope, and the other side still has a chance for a 100% win (4 escape/kill) if they try even harder and truly earn it.
What was carrot - Essentially the (meaningful) deletion of DS, overpowered regression in 6.1, the 2nd strongest gen slowdown meta in the form of Pop/PR/Deadlock/Grim Embrace. Then instead of using 1 or 2 of those at a time, or only tunneling a single hook state, enough Killer players abused stacking all the strongest facets enough to get them all nerfed. If we had Killers use just Pop and Grim Embrace, or PR and Deadlock, or tunneling 1 hook state out of 12, then none of the further adjustments would have been needed. Instead, we had people abusing OC/CoB/Eruption, Pop/PR/Deadlock/Grim, tunneling 4-6 hook states per match, and now all those Killer perks got nerfed and Survivor related perks got buffed. Having the strongest perks was a carrot, and that carrot was squandered.
This doesn't only affect turbo-tunneling - That's the thing, it pretty much does. In a normal match, Killers can easily stabilize around 1 gen remaining and 1 kill. That gives both sides enough perception that they meaningfully had a chance to play the game. Only in a 4 gen remaining 1 kill would this cause significant adjustments, but that is after the Killer has easily been able to get 2 hooks per Surv, and have a delay to patrol the gens and prevent 99 cheese easily. I mean heck, we could even just have it only work with gens that were under 50% after the delay (although that might be more difficult to code), but since you weren't even willing to come up with a suggestion like that shows I'm doing all the heavy lifting here.
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3770402#Comment_3770402
Don't think we should adjust base game in any form
Well, I talk about current state of DBD. With all past changes on top of it.
Only thing we need are soloQ improvements, or specific perk/killer changes in my opinion.
Your feature changes whole balance of the game at all levels and definitely won't keep 60% kill rate.
Spectate mode is something that already exists, so you could tie the feature's delay or activation if you spectate.
That just makes game more "toxic" in my opinion. I am sometimes simply curious how game ended. It would be bad, if I knew that by doing this I am actually screwing my team over.
Nothing neither positive or negative should be tied to spectate. It's bad enough SWF can use it to screw soloQ, but it's not that common thing in my experience...
Like I said though, eventually there would be a separate button to take care of that instead, so you could not give them the feature, but watch them flounder if they griefed you.
So instead trying to improve soloQ, you give everyone power to grief even while dying? That doesn't make any sense.
My 3 man SWF (because the 4th hard quit the game due to tunneling)
That's your problem. You chose to play with that player and should definitely bear consequences. I kick anyone who rage quit...
The problem is SWF isn't black and white
So feature is not a problem, if it screws "bad" killers.
But it's fine to carry "bad" survivors?
These changes would help the remaining >90% of solo/duo/trio matches the most (and IIRC solo is ~60%, which is the vast majority).
On expense of most killers... Which shouldn't be a thing when there are ways to improve soloQ while not giving killers any direct negative feedback.
Skipping gens is definitely direct negative feedback.
Also your 90% is unrealistic, when you give players an option to deny it...
All the changes in the past were made from discussions in the previous present, like this one is now, for potential future changes. I liked the state of the game pre-6.1 the most of all time, and that even had 90s gens when I think 80s gens are better for the game. If something adjusts the kill rate too far, they make follow up changes, they don't simply give up and never patch the game again. This wouldn't shift kill rates from 60% to 30% or anything drastic enough to actually warrant a full deletion/patch revert if stress-tested properly.
Spectate temporary feature until button is implemented - I mean again, it would be a temporary measure. As far as a button, it would give the Survivor the chance to give their team a greater chance in normal conditions, and deny them that chance if they griefed them to their death. It would be a 'grief first blood' by the remaining 3, that would determine if the dead 4th helps them or not.
My friends - I think you misunderstand. The 4th hard quit the game altogether (due to excessive tunneling), not every match. I play with 3 people now in my SWF, and we prioritize goofy fun over sweatlording. In my opinion, this is the vast vast vast majority of SWFs, just people goofing off with friends, not clock callout players.
This feature disavantages weak Killer players - Would you say the 8 regression limit also disavantages weak Killer players? Players who lacked the skill to win without learning how to play without turbo-tunneling/holding a 3-gen. They address the same conceptual flaw, that is easily overcome with learning how to play the game. I've also suggested mechanics to help Killers as well, but this particular issue helps Survivors that have the lobby victimized by turbo-tunneling. I can help both sides in different respects.
Killers negative feedback/hurts 'most' Killers - The issue is we have tried the carrot, and sadly, it hasn't worked. That means all we have left is the stick. This is the least intrusive method, and to be fair, using psychology, it should be default on with an option for off (if we want it to be used in the majority of cases, and only an opt-out due to being griefed by the remaining 3 being intended). As far as most Killers, I would disagree. Most Killers aren't intentionally turbo-tunneling, and most are halfway decent at spreading hooks. This would shove them more in the direction of intentionally spreading hooks, and allow Killers to chase more players and improve their skill further. Every Killer who turbo-tunnels is currently improving their winrate without improving their skill. This would make them be forced to improve their skill to improve their winrate. For most Killers, this won't be an issue, because they have already had fun learning all the different Killers they play, learning looping, learning mindgames, and learning macro. If they hadn't learned, they would have abandoned Killer far far far long ago, because the learning is the fun of playing Killer. If they wanted to have fun without learning, they would play a single player game and turn down the difficulty.
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3770066#Comment_3770066
Yeah but he is commonly considered one of the weaker Killers, so it works as a good form of reference.
Not really, he is anything but standard killer. His playstyle is quite unique, if played correctly.
If you played him as normal killer, that's what you yourself almost insult as chase face (not sure I remember it correctly).
He is nothing like other killers, so why use him as some kind of reference?
Your 60 seconds statement definitely doesn't work for Legion... And they have normal TR, so it is not really difficult to hide against them.
with your help we were able to also address soloq and SWF differences (for the most part).
Not really, I still don't believe it should ever touch base game in any form. It would do way more harm than good in my opinion.
Spectate as the temporary easy spite method
Wow, what an amazing feature...
I think it would be better to give survivors better chance at cooperation, than doing exactly opposite.
I simply don't think SWF need any help winning right now. I also don't think this is the way how to help soloQ.
There are many other features I would do to help soloQ. Something to do specifically for soloQ, which won't affect killer or SWF in major way.
Your idea affects everyone and soloQ least in my opinion, which is not really what should happen.
Doesn't work with Legion - I would hard disagree. The Survivors are essentially permanently injured, and the Killer has a good idea from Killer Instinct where the Survivors are at all times. When I can pick from 1-2 out of the 3 remaining to get a down in a short time frame, that is going to be faster than Ghosty in most cases. Even if they weren't injured, they still had the KI intel, and merely needs to tag them with a quick Feral hit and then start their normal chase, or get their fellow corner camper at that gen. Maybe if the final area the Killer is chasing is has been untouched the entire match (no destroyed pallets), but by this far in the match, the Killer could check the other 99'd gen or should have more pallets destroyed.
Don't think we should adjust base game in any form - I mean I would disagree, but does that mean we should also go back to 65s gens, standoff Hatches, remove anti-facecamp, remove basekit BT, BNPs fully complete gens again, and so on? Those were all changes to the base game that improved the game for the better. Also personally I think 80s gens were the 'just right' point (alongside 25% max Pop and 200% Ruin).
Spectate to delay/activate the feature - When I think of suggestions, I first think of what already exists. If we look at the 2v8 mode, Killers get a number tweaked variant of Nowhere to Hide. Spectate mode is something that already exists, so you could tie the feature's delay or activation if you spectate. Thinking more on it, hitting Spectate once would be better if you wanted to give them a chance of escape, since then you could watch and see if they get out. Like I said though, eventually there would be a separate button to take care of that instead, so you could not give them the feature, but watch them flounder if they griefed you.
SWF don't need help winning right now - The problem is SWF isn't black and white. There are SWF playing with a baby friend, there are SWF playing to goof off and have fun with each other, there are SWF sweating for $5 subway cards calling out clocks, and there is everything in between (and in excess of) those extremes. My 3 man SWF (because the 4th hard quit the game due to tunneling), has a 50% chance of one of the people bringing a hard grief perk for funsies (No Mither or Invocation of Spiders used when unhooked and we know the Killer has BBQ). If you want to say a 4-man with Purple+ items with Iri Add-ons and only Meta perks, sure, you got a point. The problem is that is less than 10% are 4-mans, let alone full sweaty. These changes would help the remaining >90% of solo/duo/trio matches the most (and IIRC solo is ~60%, which is the vast majority).
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3769992#Comment_3769992
if you are digging so far at the bottom of the barrel
Not really digging. We play 3 SWF quite often and it's simply something we would definitely do. At the moment survivor is hooked, if we decide they didn't pull their weight, they are dead. This bug actually gives a reason to do it and get something out of it...
Ghosty works like a roller coaster
It seemed like you didn't notice it yet, but Ghostface is not only killer in this game.
The only losses I could get were from me making a blatant and massive mistake only due to autopiloting, and if I had actually used my brain, it would be a full free win.
So far you got stuck at "this feature is not a problem, if you are good enough killer".
Well, I think feature is not needed (and easily abusable), if survivors are good enough...
That's what we would do - I mean the rest was solid. I guess you could have it delayed as long as the soloq Surv Spectates or hits a button in the lobby. (Spectate as the temporary easy spite method, new button once the feature is locked in and the Surv knows if the trio was griefing or not and want to give them the feature).
Ghosty not only Killer - Yeah but he is commonly considered one of the weaker Killers, so it works as a good form of reference. Essentially there is nowhere to go but up. I also thoroughly enjoy Myers/Trapper/Legion/Clown (for some more commonly considered weaker Killers), and I am only barely worse with them in comparison to Ghosty. My Myers playstyle (which doesn't use Tombstone) is particularly resilient against this mechanic since it revolves around Thana/Plaything/Penti (but that takes ~10 matches to learn to make work, as it takes a massive playstyle shift compared to normal Myers).
Stuck in a loop of saying "this feature is not a problem, if you are good enough killer" - The truth should always be welcomed. But to be less facetious, the flaw of turbo tunneling has been the crutch of weaker Killer players, and ruins too many soloq matches. No matter how good I can be at Killer, I can win more if I learn more. No matter how good I can be at Survivor, I can lose if I have a bad enough soloq teammate, no matter how much I learn. This is a means of safely fixing that oversight, and with your help we were able to also address soloq and SWF differences (for the most part).
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3769727#Comment_3769727
That way it works for soloq and not SWF.
In both cases it works. But SWF are simply more likely to use it effectively. Like wait with popping gen, successfully stealth it out etc. You won't get that in soloQ.
In soloQ how effective it is going to be is completely random.
3 player SWF can also decide to let soloQ die on hook so they can use the system. I can definitely see that happening.
Yeah we've been over this, a strong enough Killer will find and down someone within that 60s. A baby Killer won't. Skill prevails
No you won't... Even when survivors try to push gens, so they are easier to find. You can definitely have longer than 60 seconds delay during the game.
It gets even more difficult when all survivors decide to stealth it out unless you are undetectable killer, which can surprise them.
It's simply unrealistic for most killers. Your idea barely works only as Ghostface main...
You can try to argue about skill issue of the killer. Well, I think survivors that wouldn't be able to win with this feature are simply bad instead and it's not really up to the killer.
I'm sorry, previously you were being dismissive of comp, so I will echo that sentiment back at you. Who cares about comp. They can set up their custom rules and have fun in their quarantine zone as to not ruin the game for the rest of us
Well, who cares about bad survivors? Neither comp or bad players should be balanced around, yet you use them for your arguments...
I don't think you need to be anywhere near comp level as survivor to abuse this bug.
What I'm saying is the ability to drop a chase is as valuable as ending a chase.
The fact that you are required to drop chases even in 1v3 proves to me that it's not so free game as you act.
With Ghostface sooner or later you are going to get fast down and snowball from that, because of your undetectable and instadown.
Again, works only because of the killer you play... Most killers are forced to use two hits to down survivors, which let the survivor run on opposite side of the map. You can easily get more than 20 seconds this way…
3 SWF - I'm sorry but if you are digging so far at the bottom of the barrel with Devil's Advocate claims like 'maybe people will kill off the soloq guy' that kinda cements the idea as solid. But I do appreciate the pushback on the no delayed to 60s to be further adjusted to 30s+15s/hook or 20-30s/hook. That more accurately encourages splitting hooks to prevent/delay the feature.
60s - Yes you will down them in time (if you are skilled). I already explained that Ghosty works like a roller coaster the way I play him, and this would be one of those tempo moments where the ~30s downs are common.
Who cares about bad Survivors - This targets the average match, not the bottom 1% or the top 1%, so this section is irrelevant. But to bite the bait, a bad Survivor team will die anyways, and a god tier Survivor team would 4 man out anyways.
Drop chases - Knowing the basics of the game and following those basics on autopilot is a free win in 1v3 IMO. Someone on hook forces a rescue, and a chase ties up the 3rd Surv. Free win due to permanently off gen Survivors. Blight is so OP I could meme with old Adren Vial+Shredded Notes and win by using his power for Mobility and Pallet breaks only (or hits if they greeded the pallet I was expecting to be dropped, all while fully autopiloting). That is what I consider a free win (even in 1v4), something like picking Blight in and of itself (when you understand how the game works). The only losses I could get were from me making a blatant and massive mistake only due to autopiloting, and if I had actually used my brain, it would be a full free win.
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@Archael said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3769004#Comment_3769004
Low skill player as Nurse is way worse than low skill player as survivor. Yes, aura reading helps, but only if one have muscle memory of blink destination.
I remember how it was back when i was playing the Nurse. Thise was my worst hours of playing this game. Lot of trials left with not even single hit. Im not good player, but this proves the point. As Wraith i can get easy 4k with no tunneling, but this may be because of my low mmr. Yet as surv i still can outplay most Nurses i play against, and i often see Nurses that get 0 hits on teams i play with.
And you may an anegdotal argument, so are those against the Nurse. Yet her official killrate proves my arguments.Nurse blink muscle memory takes far less time and effort than people are typically willing to admit. Nurse is easy, stop pretending. I don't think it took more than a single digit worth of games before I got used to the blink mechanic. Now maybe you might be talking about the next step, where the Killer decides to first blink at the corner, or risk the diagonal, but the aura reads remove the actual skill facet of Nurse here.
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3769344#Comment_3769344
is all too many hoops to actually occur with any frequency. I have enough problems getting my soloq teammates to not unhook me
For any feature / change, I try to consider the effect on soloQ, SWF, Blight/Nurse and Freddy/Trapper.
This feature wouldn't really be broken with soloQ, because they will simply finish whatever gen possible without thinking. This is type of feature that gets super broken by even average level SWF, because it's simply. So it only increases gap between soloQ and SWF.
Btw 99 gen even if you kick it then in 60 seconds you regress 20 charges. You won't be able to leave it for long, so it's very easy for us to finish against that. It's basically easy version of 3-gen situation, which already got easier for survivors.
However, if you are saying they need the full 90-180s to be pumped on gens, naw, only against weaker players, like blatant auto-filled lobby weaker Killer players.
That doesn't really work when it is standard practice in comp...
Are you saying it's impossible to have 90 seconds chase? That's enough for 3 survivors to finish 2 gens. 1 in chase, 2 on gens... It's definitely possible, 1 gen left is even easier.
Increase gap between soloq and SWF - Then just have it only count a player as dead under the system for extra gen pops when the timer runs out AND all party members leave. That way it works for soloq and not SWF.
Only 20 charges after 99'd gen is kicked over a minute - Yeah we've been over this, a strong enough Killer will find and down someone within that 60s. A baby Killer won't. Skill prevails.
"That doesn't really work when it is standard practice in comp…" - I'm sorry, previously you were being dismissive of comp, so I will echo that sentiment back at you. Who cares about comp. They can set up their custom rules and have fun in their quarantine zone as to not ruin the game for the rest of us.
Am I saying it is impossible to have a 90s chase - What I'm saying is the ability to drop a chase is as valuable as ending a chase. The Killer has strict control over when a chase ends, either from skill and a down, or also skill and knowing they got in too deep and leaving for greener pastures. A Killer without that correct decision making apparatus will lose more games over time than the Killer with that correct decision making apparatus. This would be merely another avenue for baby Killers to lose, and by losing, they will learn to win. The more someone loses, the more opportunity they have to learn. If this is merely sticking the knife in the weak ribcage of that particular Killer's tunnel vision, then they might actually learn to drop unfavorable chases now.
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The launcher is right there, on your PC/console. These are the forums, where we whine, moan, and cry about everything. The fun is in the game, the salt piles up here.
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The funny thing is Trapper is a better support Killer than Billy (at least in my matches on both sides). Trapper's traps force a Survivor to permanently be on disarm duty, and if they get chased, someone else needs to take over. If someone doesn't take over disarm duty then not only are Trapper's chases threatening, but the Killer's duo partner's chases are even more threatening, with the looming threat of a trap at any given loop. Plus the traps are effectively making their teammates chases instadowns without even needing the effort of hitting the Survivors themselves.
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3769090#Comment_3769090
Mod is on me, so have to be more selective now....
Playing DBD Hide and Seek isn't fun, but also isn't stressful
Well, your change also creates hide & seek and makes it more stressful.
If you happen to have high progress gen and someone dead on hook got down with 2 gens left, best possible play for us to stop what we are doing, everyone should hide for whatever time delay you said (60 seconds) and then try to push 1 gen, where we can choose from 4 gens and at least 1 is high progress, which is simply better than trying to finish last gens from nothing with only 3 options.
At least to me it's simply nonsense that most optimal play is to stop doing anything in middle of the game.
Actual hide and seek happens when there are two survivors left right now, not 3...
3 survivors on 1-2 gens have realistic chance to win even now.
I mean if they are attempting to keep the 1 gen 99'd, then that full 60s is ticking down on its regression since you kicked it. Even then, I'm fine with things that reward/incentivize intel perks as a means of discouraging 4 slowdowns. I think Pop and PR didn't need to be nerfed, however 4 gen slowdown Killers ruined them for the rest of us. (I think Grim Embrace was overbuffed into a stronger old Eruption, since you didn't even need to prep it like for the 25s Incap, so its nerf was justified.)
Also, again, this level of coordination to purposely die early, hide out a gen, but leave 1 person at it just in case, then have the remaining 2 duo a different gen, is all too many hoops to actually occur with any frequency. I have enough problems getting my soloq teammates to not unhook me at 61-63s on hook, so I highly doubt that regular matches would have this Seal Team 6 level of coordination.
Thinking on it more, it would work best with a starting timer, like say 30s, then add 15s per hook stage on the remaining Survivors. That would mean a 9 hook first kill would yield 2 minutes (30s+15s*6), and a turbo tunnel would yield only the base 30s. Numbers could be adjusted like 30s per alternate hook with no base timer (for 0s to 3m delay), but the concept itself is sound.
As far as 3 Survs with 1-2 gens remaining having a chance, I would disagree. Maybe if you are using the '1-2 gens left on the HUD' argument, then sure (with about 30 gen seconds remaining). However, if you are saying they need the full 90-180s to be pumped on gens, naw, only against weaker players, like blatant auto-filled lobby weaker Killer players. But that would be a match the Killer never had any right winning in the first place, and probably just got lucky (or facecamped from a choke point) for their only kill.
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Trapper's counter is literally 1 person picking Scout and stalking him all game while disabling his traps. If the Scout player in your lobby isn't doing their job, then do it yourself.
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@Neaxolotl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3769009#Comment_3769009
You don't need anything close to 8 swfs, just enough to have extremely basic game sense
"killer sided" basically implies the game balance is in favor of killers, which is objectively incorrect, you may call matchmaking killer sided, but calling the mode killer sided doesn't makes sense
Well so far 6/8 Survivors have lacked that basic game sense every match I've played in 2v8 on both sides, so it would track that 2v8 is heavily Killer sided.
Also Killer sided would mean that in most scenarios, it shakes out that way. The game balance could be in favor of the Spectator mode in customs, but if most normal matches end with 60% kill rates, then by definition it would be Killer sided. Anything in excess of 50% would be sided for that side. Since my 2v8s end predominantly with Killer wins (regardless of which side I am playing, just like normals), the game mode is Killer sided.
If you want to explore the theoretical perfect bot players playing for both sides, feel free to explore that thought experiment in your own mind. When people are talking about this stuff on the forums, they are talking about their living breathing experiences, and the raw stats of kill rates. Using a definition only you use and saying 'this is my definition' is fine, using a definition only you use and saying something like 'Am I so out of touch? No it's the children who are wrong.' isn't fine.
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@VomitMommy said:
I can understand this perspective, as this would shift a Survivor 0.?% chance of victory to a ~30% chance. I find this a good change, because once Survivors think the game is hopeless, they hide and never touch gens (except to fulfill the gen tap per 10 minutes to avoid a ban). This keeps them playing the game of DBD instead of MGS. They still have a marked decreased chance of victory, from ~40% to ~30%, but it is enough of a chance to keep hope. I'd rather lose 1/100 matches from this than spend 1/10 playing MGS with Survivors.
From my POV you are just increasing stress for the killers. Even if I spread hooks and finally managed to kill someone, it means nothing, because survivors get to do gens for free suddenly.
Basically only playstyle possible is to either tunnel asap so I don't care, or play for 3-gen.
Right now, I consider current balance quite good overall. Your idea simply throws it out of window, because it makes it so much easier to get into all gens finished scenario. So Hope and Adrenaline becomes kinda broken and most killers are not capable dealing with 3 survivors on exit gates. The game would be hell without No Way Out.
About MMR, there is no point in adjusting it. There is only minority of players, who wants actually strict MMR. It makes queue times hell for many players and games are sweat fest.
If that's what you want, go play comp. Focusing on MMR is waste of time.
Increase Killer stress: (Section TLDR: It would be stressful because playing the game is stressful, and playing the game is fun. Playing DBD Hide and Seek isn't fun, but also isn't stressful.)
I mean I thought of a way to not impact my matches meaningfully, other than shifting a boring MGS match, into a match where the Survivors still play. Does that mean a 0 stress match now became stressful, technically yes. Does that also mean that I don't have to patrol gens for 10 minutes recording my gameplay to provide evidence for a report, more importantly yes.
Playing the game in and of itself is stressful, and my changes would only make it so MGS styled gen avoidance is no longer a factor. MGS gamplay isn't 'playing the game' it is playing 'can I get evidence for a report' simulator. I'll admit, when playing against a blatant cheater, I change my wincon to this 'can I get evidence for a report' gameplay, and I have fun with it. I don't have fun when it happens all the time though. This, paired with the hook respawn after 60s, would be a perfect mechanic to prevent the extremes of unfun.
I personally find the hook respawn to be removing an important factor of skill for the Killer, and now my game is made easier because I no longer have to think ahead when hooking people. I didn't oppose the change though because it was a net positive to prevent (some) bleedouts. This (gen bug becoming basekit) would retain the fair nature of both changes, and be net positive, like the hook change.
Current Balance and the potential gen change: (Section TLDR: Kill rates are too high on both ends [IME].)
I would say the game is currently too Killer sided, as my soloq matches are below 35% escape rate, and my Killer matches are above 75% win rate. As far as Hope and Adrenaline, I generally don't find them to be an issue. I most often win at 1-2 gens remaining, because I intentionally delay my first kill as long as possible. I delay the kill for 2 major reasons: to make sure everyone has (the chance of) fun, and to make sure no one gives up to play MGS instead. Once there are 3 Survivors, they pretty much fall into a death spiral with no hope of getting Hope.
Quit focusing on MMR: (Section TLDR: I thought you wanted to talk about it so I continued.)
I mean IIRC, I was merely explaining the win conditions of the game because you took issue with a 3 Hatch escape (with old Keys) being a Killer win. I thought your continued exploration down that path meant you wanted to keep talking about it. I've been focusing on the majority of matches with most of my discussion (as it would be a net positive to discourage early tunneling), while including each section that I've felt I had something to expand upon.
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@Neaxolotl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3768945#Comment_3768945
Pretty sure it's definitely not because "how easy killers have it in 2v8", it's pretty obvious the reason is many thing, main reason being killers finally being playable with friends
game is extremely survivor sided as long as both sides plays seriously, luckily majority of survivors won't play serious in slightest
Let's assume your premise is correct. How many 8 SWFs are you aware of playing taking this super seriously and clock callouting? That basically means no Survivors are even remotely taking the game mode seriously, so it would make it Killer sided by default.
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On paper I love it! In practice when I scout a Huntress slowing walking across the map and my teammates never respond… yeah… not fun. Now I wasted time that could have been spent on gens, since my Surv teammates aren't intelligent enough to realize the Huntress is heading directly towards them with a free aura read.
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@Archael said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3768684#Comment_3768684
I doubt she would be performing the same in 8v2 if she would be her basekit.
We are talking about the nurse. Not pro players mastering the Nurse.We are talking about the Nurse against players of all skill levels, which means most Nurses are more skilled than most of the Survs, especially when Nurse gets aura on entering chase to make mindgames impossible.
Ultimately my issue is that they probably shouldn't have included Nurse in the selection of Killers, and something like Doctor/Clown/Spirit/Legion would be less frustrating (although Spirit and Legion would probably be among the more frustrating, yet still less than Nurse).
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Bad/Worse:
This is just a matter of us disagreeing on usage/definitions. To me, the loser of a fight is bad in comparison to their opposition until they win, then the original winner is now the loser, and thus bad. You could also use a statistical argument and compare their placement against the total average, or the average of a narrow field instead.
There are also realms of the game, and someone could be a 8/10 in chase, a 5/10 in Macro, and 7/10 in stealth/seeking. If that person went against a 6/10 chase, 6/10 Macro, 8/10 stealth player, I'm going to say the person better at 2/3 categories is good, and the person better at 1/3 categories is bad, even though they both had the same total 20 points to allocate.
60s for a hook:
My statement was the generally I can get the down/hook within 60s. I didn't say every time, just that it is generally possible. There are always exceptions to a rule, but that doesn't invalidate the rule. In this circumstance we are talking about kicking a gen (-5%, seeking someone out for 1-59s (-7.5% roughly on average), and still having time to prevent a double gen pop. That is almost always going to be possible.
I play a higher tempo/lethality game. I spend the first minute stalking as many Survs as possible as Ghosty, then snowballing my victory. If they heal, I have time to re-99 the stalk, and if they don't, I can sneak up against most players since the cape flap is their only warning of my arrival, making Sprint Burst their only saving grace to get them to a window/pallet. I use intel perks to know where and when to go places, and use lethality perks to ensure nothing sketchy happens in chase to take too long for a down. Coup de Grace is arguably the best Ghosty perk (when you play this macro+lethality style), because you get one Coup proc per down (injured or Marked).
Also what typically happens is downs work more like a roller coaster, going quick (30s, 30s), then cranking back up for the next hill (90s), before getting more quick downs (30s, 30s) for an average 42s in this hypothetical. Intel perks ensure that less time is wasted, or the next hill crank is effectively utilized, and lethality perks keeping the downs quick.
Rewarded for losing:
I can understand this perspective, as this would shift a Survivor 0.?% chance of victory to a ~30% chance. I find this a good change, because once Survivors think the game is hopeless, they hide and never touch gens (except to fulfill the gen tap per 10 minutes to avoid a ban). This keeps them playing the game of DBD instead of MGS. They still have a marked decreased chance of victory, from ~40% to ~30%, but it is enough of a chance to keep hope. I'd rather lose 1/100 matches from this than spend 1/10 playing MGS with Survivors.
MMR:
The game uses wins/ties/losses, being Gate/Hatch/Death for Survivor, or Kill/Hatch/Gate for Killer. In the infamous stream detailing MMR, they admitted they don't track any facet of skill, other than hoping people who win more are more skilled. This means some people, like tunneling Blights/Nurses or Distortion+Sole Survivor rats, artificially inflate their MMR above their skill level, getting wins they didn't earn. People may not see MMR, but it doesn't change the fact of them revolving their actions around the MMR conditions for a win. Whether that is intentional or not from the players, it is happening. I have seen far far far far more bleedouts for the 4k since we swapped to MMR (accounting for % of matches).
We assume 'win' = 'good in chase', and 'lose' = 'bad in chase', because that is the system we have. This clearly falls apart when the juicer Alan dies to rescue the baby Sable who corner crouched all game. The skilled player (in this very common scenario) dies, and the unskilled player lives. That's why I say MMR isn't a proper indicator of skill, but is still a proper indicator of a win/loss within a given match for the most part.
This could easily be fixed by making MMR adjustments apply equally to all Survivors at the end of a match, that way the hook trade at the end has no bearing on the juicer Alan's MMR. This would look like (+20, -15, +8, 0[Hatch instead of gate for their tome] with an average +3.25 for all Survs, instead of the +20 on baby Sable and -15 on juicer Alan). This might need something like MMR adjustments to be paused until a daily or hourly basis, and apply all adjustments at some syncing time. (Eg. +5, +5, +5, +3, -2, -5, -5, all added up an applied at midnight [+6 MMR net], with the in-progress game at midnight results counting towards the next day's MMR adjustment batch.)
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3768631#Comment_3768631
And even a majority of the people on here think most killers are viable and are super easy mode. So that explains itself.
That explains that those Killer players are sufficiently skilled that the 'super easy mode' claim becomes true. If someone hasn't learned those skills yet, they will (both falsely and factually) claim that it isn't possible to win. It is factually true because that specific Killer player lacks the skill to do so, and it is false because with enough skill it truly does become 'super easy mode' (within 80%+ of matches). A person disagreeing is self-reporting that they haven't reached that peak of skill (for those 80%+ of matches).
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@GrimReaperJr1232 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3768628#Comment_3768628
Well, if you're curious…
- She has no map presence beyond her immediate vicinity. Her long-distance mobility is pretty average, so while her chase game is still unmatched, her ability to keep pressure on multiple survivors is lacking.
- She only helps herself. Again, she is the strongest killer. However, the new mode requires some teamwork from the killer side, and she doesn't help her teammate except by being a nurse.
- Why wouldn't she be a greater problem? There are 8 survivors on a map the size of Luxemburg, and her killer skills are completely self-centered so her teammate is pretty much operating without any support unless she's nearby. And if she is nearby, then a big chunk of the map is unguarded.
You don't need to agree with me. My only gripe is: just say you hate Nurse. Her buffs aren't meaningless, but reading this thread makes it clear: you (you and OP) just don't like Nurse. That's fine but just say that.
First, I don't hate her for no reason, I hate her because she is OP. That isn't a baseless claim, so admitting it or not is irrelevant.
Second, she frequently 1v8s in this because the aura read features everywhere make it too easy to get hits.
Third, selfish powers are better than selfless powers in this game mode (IME). Huntress doesn't have a (meaningful) team perk, and essentially just has a selfish perk. Nonetheless she is both fun and fair (other than 200+ ping hits). Getting a down forces someone off a gen, which is pressure on multiple Survivors (unless the 8 Survs are in comms and only 1 person goes for the rescue, which would still be 2 people worth of pressure). Also since her selfish buffs are so strong, it negates her normal lack of mobility (significantly reduced fatigue among more).
@Archael said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3768628#Comment_3768628
idk, maybe its for the trial last shorter than regular ones? All killers are buffed, and objectives are tweaked fo this reason. Hey, there is no hooks either
I mean I've won every Killer match I've played (16+, ~half soloq ~half duo) other than 2 matches (also one soloq one duo). The only losses I've gotten as Killer was playing Billy (in both matches, which is more a sign of my inability to play Billy [without instadowns] with or without comms). If all the trials last shorter because Killers are winning easier than normal, then maybe Nurse shouldn't be super powered when a basekit Nurse could have had nearly the same results, and Billy is nerfed to lose Instadowns.
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By virtue of commenting on these forums, we are all (statistically likely) in the top half of players. It is even more probable that we are all well within the top MMR softcap (the top 25% of the playerbase). That means there is 75% of players being worse than any of us commenters. That basically means in any 2v8, you have 2 juicer extremes, 2 pretty good Survivors, 2 weak players, and 2 utter babies. When a match can actually be made correctly, there likely are too many pallets/good setups. Since a match can never be made correctly, it currently is super Killer sided since you can exploit 6 Survivors being weaker than you (instead of the normal 1 or 2).
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@GrimReaperJr1232 said:
She only gets a third blink when within 16m of her teammate. That is a nonfactor.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3768231#Comment_3768231
And here you make your actual stance clear. This isn't a "I think Nurse breaks the mode," you just hate Nurse. Which is fair, you can hate Nurse. But that's not much of an argument besides Nurse being herself, something everyone already knows.
If everyone already knows Nurse is and always has been a problem, then why wouldn't a supercharged Nurse be an even greater problem in 2v8? The 5s reveal on chase alone prevents all chance of mindgaming (which is pretty much the only counterplay to Nurse), and allows the Nurse to leave and re-enter chase to reveal again immediately.
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A Survivor being worse than the Killer is always going to be the Survivor being bad. They are bad in comparison to that Killer, have room to learn and improve, and once they do, they are better than the Killer and no longer bad. They may run into another Killer they are already better than before they learned how to improve, but they are still not bad because it is only a comparison against your opposition.
Doubt with M1 Killers - Doubt all you want, if someone is so bad at Killer that they don't even use their power, then your argument has weight, but most matches Killers use their power. Legion has them perma-injured, Ghosty has Exposed for lethality and the reveal noise for intel, Trapper has traps to prevent the best loops or trick Survivors, Clown has his gas, Myers has the smaller TR (which only doesn't work on Autohaven since that realm is bad for stealth in general), Dredge gets Killer Instinct on TP, Singularity can scan with pods (or camp a gen and look at the other one). All of these are M1 Killers that can find or chase much easier with power usage.
Use the bug only when losing - This doesn't magically make the attempt a success, and the level of coordination is far and above what soloq is consistently capable of. The Killer can still outskill the scenario, especially with a 60s delays as I've suggested. It only gives 2 free escapes against a Killer that the Survivor team could have simply gotten a free 4 escapes against. Gens aren't automatically 99'd, and if the Killer waited 89s and never did anything about it, that is their problem.
MMR - Everyone sweating for their winstreaks cares, because those are the rules of the game that determine a win/loss. Skill never enters into the equation, but we assume that if you win, you could consistently juice or end chases. Also Killer could do things about Keys/Hatch. They could bring a Hatch offering, Franklin's Demise, kill the Key holder on an awkward spot for Survivors to pick up the Key, and more.
4k Challenges - Unironically yes. I played against countless Key lobbies, and had no problem other than when attempting 4k challenges. (Adepts for me were actually easier with the old system, because you could 11 hook and let the final Survivor go even if healthy. 4k makes you have to slug for the 4k, or take the ~60/40 of a Hatch fight and risk going next if they win the Hatch fight.)
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3768235#Comment_3768235
Fewer gens are easier to defend, but that's again why I'm confused. If this comes into play at any number from 2-5 gens remaining, I have to defend more gens, regardless if the remaining gens are odd or even.
If number is either 3, or 5, then even with this bug I am guaranteed to stay at 1 gen left, which is easiest to defend.
If I do it at 2, or 4 then game just become way harder for me to win.
2 99'd gens at 4 remaining - I mean just camp one gen as soon as I catch on to their strat. I don't understand why this is a herculean task.
So we are free to work on any other gen meanwhile. That's nice of you.
Am I legally obligated to turn off my brain and not come up with counters?
Quite the opposite, my full answer would make mods angry...
60s delay - 60s is more than enough time to make use of an intel perk, or just use my eyeballs and ears in a search for another Surv
You don't have Ultimate Weapon anymore for easy finding. Also not every killer brings information perk, because some simply don't need it.
If I don't want you to find me, without a specific perk, you are not going to find me.
even if the Survs pop the gen across the map, the gen 99'd close to hook can be duo camped easily.
How exactly are you going to down my anywhere near close 99 gen?
Seems like your counters work only with turned off brain... Doesn't really make it valid.
And again:
Have you even played against old hatch and keys? Because that is exactly what you are trying to bring back as basekit feature, which is terrible idea.
I still don't understand your gen number argument, so I'm just gunna drop it.
Survs free to work other gens if a 99'd gen is camped - Yeah? You can choose to leave or camp and play to what you think gives you the best chance of winning. They hide and Killer camps and searches, Killer wins (assuming the Killer is better than the Survivor at hide and seek, if we are assuming all Survivors win at hide and seek, then all Survs always win). They leave and Killer camps, they win. They leave and Killer leaves, Killer wins. In 2/3 scenarios, the Killer wins, better than the default odds of 60%.
No more free wins with Ultimate Weapon - Ultimate Weapon, Nowhere to Hide, and all these perks would still function and work for this purpose, and perkless, it is a skill fight between Killer and Surv. Again, if we assume the Survivors cannot be found if they don't want to be found, then Survivors would have 100% escape rate from stealth alone, with or without this hypothetical gen change.
How to down someone near a 99'd gen - If they hid, then they give a free hit once found, then once downed, the Killer can travel ~55m safely before the Survivor can wiggle free. I can generally find someone, down them, then hook them within 60s of any given point of a match (unless I'm prepping like Ghosty stalks/Traps, but at this point of the game, preparations are done).
All my counters work as long as the Killer is better than the Survivors. If the Killer was worse than the Survivors, then they could have taken the 4 out anyways, so a sacrificial lamb yielding a 3 out is a net positive for Killer in terms of results. (S/S/S/S net 4S vs K/S/S/S net 2S, becomes a lesser loss for Killer).
As far as old Hatch and Keys, I didn't play against grab game Hatch, but I did play against the (superior) version of Hatch that was deleted after the Mikaela patch. The only flaw of that was when you had a 4k tome, but all 4k tomes/adepts should count 3k+ Hatch for them nowadays to disincentivize bleedouts. I have defended pre-Mikaela Hatch numerous times because it solved both tunneling and 3-genning. Instead we get an 8 regression limit, and whatever other bad ideas they will attempt next, to fix an issue caused from the removal of the 'better for the game Hatch' mechanic that existed before. Hatch counts as a tie, so in MMR, a 3 Hatch escape is a Killer win (K/T/T/T = K), If they could have won without Hatch, then they would have beat the Killer (K/S/S/S = net 2S), so again, net postive results for Killer.
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3767632#Comment_3767632
That's why I'm still confused why you'd only care at 5/3. It still matters at evens and odds with the exception of 1 gen remaining.
Because I will always get to 1 gen left which is easiest to defend. Not difficult to understand...
What is easier to defend 3 gens, or 4 gens?
Survivors are setting themselves up for failure if someone is giving up early to make the game a 3 gen 3 Survivor match.
Not if I use it in order to win and my teammates are ready to finish those gens.
Almost no killer is going to be able to win if we 99 two gens at 4 gens left and let someone to die. Most killers are not able to get 4k against 3 healthy survivors in end game. You usually get 2k at best.
The 60s delay would prevent the 99'd gen(s) from being an issue.
No, it wouldn't. 60 seconds is way less than what we are about to save on those gens.
You are not bringing multiple gens to 0 in 60 seconds and it's not difficult to chase for 60 seconds even if you find someone against most killers.
If we screwed up early game and know we have no chance to win normally, we can simply abuse this system and give as good chance to win.
If they 99'd 2+ gens, then it didn't even impact my ability to win since they needed to go out of the way to 99 2+ different gens instead of simply popping them to power the gates.
It's way easier than finish additional two gens which are going to be easier for killer to patrol.
Fewer gens are easier to defend, but that's again why I'm confused. If this comes into play at any number from 2-5 gens remaining, I have to defend more gens, regardless if the remaining gens are odd or even.
2 99'd gens at 4 remaining - I mean just camp one gen as soon as I catch on to their strat. I don't understand why this is a herculean task. Am I legally obligated to turn off my brain and not come up with counters?
60s delay - 60s is more than enough time to make use of an intel perk, or just use my eyeballs and ears in a search for another Surv. You don't need to bring the gens to 0, you just need to bring them out of the realm of completion. A basekit 5% regression + starting to regress means that if a Killer runs across the remaining gens, they can find the people camping gens with little to no problem. If they are Distortion+Calm Spirit rat uber-hiders, then they could have coordinated and done that in the first place and won with a 4-out.
Easier to finish 2 gens - I mean you'd have one person found near a 99'd gen, then be on hook (near that gen that they aren't going to risk popping early), and even if the Survs pop the gen across the map, the gen 99'd close to hook can be duo camped easily.
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@HexHuntressThighs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3767753#Comment_3767753
On the other hand I’ve seen 7 matches in a row where we got 6 to 8 man outs. All Huntress matches
All I know is when I played Huntress, I had no problem winning. Playing against means I don't know the skill of the opponent (or if they are mentally AFK).