mizark3
mizark3
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@[Deleted User] said:
I still find it so odd that Oni's 1 frame 180 flick hasn't been patched out yet but wolf hug seemingly is in such a short amount of time.
Killers that recently have been released are higher on the queue for follow up changes. We have seen this for nearly every Killer getting small tweaks to tune them up or down shortly after release, after the playerbase can show how 'counterable' or 'oppressive' Killers are. This isn't magic or surprising, although I do think Oni's bugged flick should be fixed as well.
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@ChaosWam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3794307#Comment_3794307
Aren't we forgetting that BHVR's target is 60% killrate? These numbers pretty much go in line with that.
Yeah which completely demolishes the idea of the game being 'Survivor sided' when they are designed to lose 60% of the time. Even when we falsely use Apex Fallacy for 4-man SWF at High MMR from these alone, we still see the game is Killer sided since they still win more often than Survivors.
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I think it is called Apex Fallacy. The general assumption is taken from the highest subset group, instead of the mean/median/mode, or any other normal metric. Anyone claiming that it is such a free win for Survivor, should just show 10 games back to back as Survivor getting a 3/4 out with randoms. They would quickly backtrack their claim and recognize that they are falling under this Apex Fallacy, or lie to your face and make up excuses.
When 4-SWFs in High-MMR can't even break the 50% barrier, the game clearly isn't remotely close to Survivor sided (especially when ~50-60% of matches are soloq, and that is less than 40% escape rate).
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@Ex3de_ said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/OVLPTAVZH2RL/zrzut-ekranu-2024-09-06-155509.png
Yep I think it is time for the devs to come and look into this cause it is getting out of hand at this point.
Little disclaimer, this have been mine 5th match *in a row* with at least 2 irisFirst off, there are only 2 'true' Iris in that picture, Syringe (24s time save) and BNP (10s time save and 11% regression reduction on that specific gen). The Gel Dressings were nerfed to Iri just to reduce how common they occur, so they aren't really comparable.
Secondly, sweat brings sweat. Either the previous Killer was sweating and thus they bring stronger add-ons to compete with the sweat, or you have been frequently sweating to reach your MMR. Either way, your MMR and the Survivor MMR is roughly equal, or you wouldn't have gotten a match. Take it as pride that you can play without Iris (even if you play Oni), but they Survs 'need' Iris.
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@BubMickey07 said:
I kept hitting a david and it never showed the animation the four times he used it..?
Did they take out the animation?
First off 4 times? You can only use it once after each hook, so 2 times max per match. This had to be another source of Endurance mixed in between. That would give OTR and Styptics for the most common sources.
Secondly, the frame you hit a DH, it ends the animation and reverts to the neutral state. If they used it in time, then you would probably never see it. Most times you DH and you get exhausted on the ground (with the Killer hitting you through the Endurance). (Or at least with the VPN Killers I frequently go against this is the case.)
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@adsads123123123123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3794165#Comment_3794165
I mean it will be used to BM killers. It's basically an item that allows survivors to click at killers forever.
You can only walk while using the Flashlight, that means you move at 2.26m/s instead of 4m/s. Even with both Champion of Light and Fixated, you only go 3.842 m/s. The Survivor will always lose distance using the Flashlight compared to running, so BMing means the Survivor is giving the Killer an advantage, so it would effectively be a Killer item.
The only actual complaint with merit is that you could go 3.842 without scratch marks, so make this infinite flashlight create scratch marks while using it, or not work with Champion of Light.
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@Namtellum said:
first of all #REVERTBLIGHT secondly when was the last time a survivor sided map got nerfed? when was the last time anything related to survivor GAMEPLAY including perks got nerfed? plus there was quite a bit of counterplay to blights hug tech so thats not a valid argument AND indoor maps still sucked for him. its EVEN WORSE now you can barley get through a door. BHVR please please. at least brung back hug tech and no. its not an exploit unlike lopro blight a few months ago.
When was the last time maps got nerfed for Survivor - Hmm Farm rework (2ft teepee pallets anyone?), Autohaven rework (jungle gyms are lucky to have a pallet OR a window now), Macmillan rework+variants (see Autohaven), Haddonfield rework (butchered houses), Ormond rework+variants (way too easy to camp now+massive deadzones), Eyrie rework (used to be Surv sided, now mostly fair), Yamaoka variants (massive deadzones), Borgo rework (was way too Surv sided, now practically a free Killer win), Vecna's map (Portal usage is basically a free Killer hit now), and I'm probably missing a lot more.
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@Leachy_Jr said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/RROFGHKXYVRB/image.png
Me thinks DS should be 40s.
Based on how they fuction amongst good players. Of course if ur playing with people that have the IQ of a garden gnome perks like reassurance or exponential wont get much value.
I agree, DS should stun both the Killer and the Survivor for 40s, then the Killer can hit and down the Survivor immediately afterward.
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@CammyChameleon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3794122#Comment_3794122
I mean if that were the case though, of it being beneficial having 2 people of gens, then people taking body blocks wouldn't be so strong to prevent a teammate going down early. It just doesn't work like that though, 2 people can still be on gens and one is helping and that is plenty of pressure. The issue now is it's to easy to swap who goes out to EMP the friend and who goes back on the gen because they barely have to get close.
Correct, it only helps to bodyblock if the Killer would lose the original tunnel victim, or going into an Adrenaline play. If the Killer goes straight on after them, then it instead is a free injury for Killer, and a free win in due time. If a Killer isn't able to win with 2 people on gens at max the entire match (from 3-4), it is a skill issue and nothing more. Even being a basic M1 Killer and tagging only to bait out EMPs would still have Singularity win if the Killer piloting him has more than 20 hours in the game.
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Singularity was amazing before, and he arguably is oppressive now. The only counter is people slowing themselves down to pre-pickup EMPs, which is fine since it takes a mere 3s to apply another tag on them. If EMP range gets nerfed, then they might as well revert the 95% boxes to autocomplete again.
If a Singularity consistently is losing because people are hopping off gens, then the Singularity never had the skill to win in the first place. They are literally getting 2 people off gens for the price of one, and the re-tag is so easy that it is only a benefit.
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Shhhhhhhhh, the 4 gen slowdown losers might get it nerfed.
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The only buff Eruption could take is not having the pop count towards the Regression limit.
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@Hex_KillerMainBTW said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3785075#Comment_3785075
The game is designed to have a 60% kill rate, yes. However the devs decided it would be best to nerf gen regression perks. As a killer you need to be able to juggle yet a lot of maps tend to be RNG for killers. If it's a map that goes against your power, then you're probably lucky to even get 1 kill. There are killers I love(d) to play as and they just seem too weak now. Survivors got a base borrowed time. And killers got a base….what? Survivors pretty much have 4 perks and a slightly less time of borrowed time. Kicking gens isn't really worth it since it's 4 seconds to remove 1 second of the progress. Most survivors are smart enough to just have one go touch it while you spend time chasing another person. Eventually the only logical option is to slug and tunnel. That's not exactly fun for either side that's meant to be a party style game.
Nerfed Gen perks - Gen perks got nerfed because too many Killers were 4 stacking them (PR+Pop+Deadlock+GE). That's why I recommend balancing gen perks around being 50% boosted if you bring only 1, so that they can still be powerful, but only in moderation. Too many Killers who stack gen slowdown win from Attrition and Attrition alone, and soon find themselves inflating their MMR above their skill level. By crutching on slowdown so much, they lose the ability to win normally, and start to think it is impossible to win without it. It's like a Survivor who starts to bring 4 Meta perks, then starts to only play with a Syringe or BNP, and finds the game impossible to win without them.
A lot of maps are RNG - I mean yeah Ghosty on Autohaven or Huntress on The Game aren't the best of times, but its better to have good and bad maps for every Killer, so that they can have that better time when the maps are swapped (as Huntress on Autohaven is fun, and Ghosty on The Game [if you play Ghosty right] is fun). As far as maps in general, so many maps are getting butchered, like the new Ormond seems to be a 10-20% escape rate (ignoring Hatch) from my matches on both sides. Even the Farm maps got 5 tent pallets and nothing of value beyond that. So I guess there is RNG, and it just determines for Killer if it is a free-win or fairly easy.
Survivors got basekit BT and Killers got? - 10s per gen (80s→90s), 10% Brutal (2s →1.8s & 2.6s→2.34s), 10% STBFL (3s→2.7s), 10% Survivor hit speedboost reduction (2s→1.8s), the deletion of DS, and probably more I can't think of off the top of my head. Oooh, also Endurance being butchered, to prevent BT from stacking with OTR and/or DH. So I'd say if you are playing the correct way for the health of the game (chasing the rescuer) this gives Killer exclusively buffs at no cost.
Kicking gens isn't really worth it - Exactly! Chase Survivors! Lethality is far more powerful for slowdown than kicking gens over and over again. The sooner I get someone on hook, the sooner I force someone to rescue, the sooner I can chase the would-be rescuer, the sooner I can get them on hook, the sooner the Survivors lose. If I tunnel against Survs with brains not in another pair of pants, they have 3 Survs on gens the entire match, and if I spread hooks, I have 1 Surv on gens the entire match (Chase/Hook or Healed/Rescue or Healing/Genning).
The only logical option is to slug and tunnel - I mean tunnel, on paper, yes. Injured Surv or Healthy Surv, person with hooks or person without hooks, it logically makes sense to tunnel, and that is a massive design flaw. The problem is this sets people up for failure. If I tunnel the weak link every match, I can only win by tunneling weak links, and don't learn how to win against Survivors with more skill than me. By forcing myself to 8 hook before killing, I make sure my MMR only increases when I 100% win a match against all Survivors, thus I am prepared for the softcap of MMR, where weak links no longer exist. Slug, kinda mostly not logical. The sooner I get someone on hook, the sooner they die, or the sooner I force someone to rescue them, which provides natural slowdown. Slug an obvious DS play, or push off a would be pallet/flashbang rescuer, yeah these are the only times it makes sense logically.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3790645#Comment_3790645
did you even check restrictions for survivors when playing against him?
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/YUDKW6YY5UQ6/2om0fijgxric1.png
Only "allowed vs. all" perks are allowed to be played against him. Additionally, each survivor must have unique perks. On top of this, because he is a stealth killer, Lery's and Midwich are only maps where he can be played in order for the matches to be fair towards not survivors, but him.
The problem is there isn't 1 comp group, there are dozens of groups who all think they are equally important. That means if anyone has a critique of comp, they and defenders might not be talking about the same comp scene. Someone who doesn't hold any value in DBD comp, wouldn't know the top 3 from the rest, because the sweat and bad rule similarities make them all equally invalid in 'disliker's' eyes. It would be on defenders to specifically say: 'X is the best comp scene, and these are the rules they use', so that everyone is on the same page.
@Volcz said:
I'm not going to make excuses that the biased killer mains are making ('you just had an off day, it happens' LOL).
But it seems you guys aren't very good, b/c you shouldn't be losing this much if you're actually playing to win w/ a 4 stack. You are bringing so many advantages to the match and still losing. This is not the fault of the killer, but the people you are playing with.
Yeah this is partially correct. The thing is, SWF doesn't even add that much to success rates. It adds a multiplicative ~20%.
4-man (at top MMR) only raises you to ~48%, and can't even bypass 50% winrates. Plus, if one person isn't sweating, then you negate the advantage that comms provides to SWFs. Invocation of Spiders? No Mither? Solidarity+Autodidact? Meme builds, you lose regardless. Most people play for fun, and I fall into the Solidarity+Autodidact category. My most common 2nd (and the only person I frequently duo with) loves Invocation of Spiders. We have below average escape rates (together) because we aren't sweating. My most common 3rd is a complete troll and gives us a negative winrate probably down to 32% or lower from him alone. My (current) most common 4th has sub-100 hrs. You can't have someone still hiding in lockers positively contribute to a match when it doesn't include their MMR in matchmaking. (My previous most common 4th hard quit the game because Survivor experience was so horrible.)
The only time 'you should always win' is if your entire side giga-sweats. This is much easier as Killer, because you are your entire team. As Survivor, you need 4 people calling clocks, running sweat perks, and not getting emotionally turbulent. I personally play to 'mostly' win as Killer, so my current winrate (3k+) is 74% before gens pop, probably ~80% if you include after that. I don't need to tunnel, bring more than 1 or 2 gen slowdown (depending on Killer), excessively slug (slug long enough for UB or someone to recover to 95% without), or excessively proxy camp, or consistently pick from the top half of Killers. I might do some of that if the Survs excessively GenB4Fren, and I need to fight fire with fire, but otherwise I don't go in planning to do that.
The main difference for sweating with Killer and Survivor, is sweating means you only have fun if you win. Since the game is already tilted Killer sided (60-40 intended kill rates), that mostly confirms the expectation. For Survivor, everyone has to swim upstream at the same time, and want to swim upstream. If you lose as Survivor (which statistically is to be expected), then sweating isn't going to be worth it. You have to make the game fun when you lose, and sweating makes that impossible due to the extreme playstyle difference it entails.
The Hens videos showed that if you have enough skill and play certain ways, you can win 50% more (multiplicatively) than balanced for as both sides: 90% from 60% as Killer without camping/slugging/tunneling with powerless trapper, and 60% from 40% as Survivor when you take chase (and the Killer doesn't drop chase) and you actively babysit your teammates. (Ignoring the methodological problems of the Survivor video of ignoring Survivor DCs/quits and including Killer DCs/quits.) The problem is people don't want to have to babysit their team. If I liked babysitting, I'd watch my niece and nephew a lot more, but that is sooooooooo draining. I don't want the game I play for fun to drain me like that, instead it should energize me. When you have to drain yourself to have fun, it runs you net-negative.
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@GonnaBlameTheMovies said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3790475#Comment_3790475
You're absolutely right about all this mizark and yeah, the game by definition is supposed to be Killer-sided. The Killer has to be a threat, so a 60% Kill Rate is feasible. This doesn't, of course, mean you're getting a 60% Success Rate.
If you try to pursue winstreak after winstreak, you will eventually hit the MMR cap and then, you will be stuck and suffer until you lose a whole lot of rounds. This is true for both Survivor and Killer. But since Killer is a bit easier to control a round with played well, Killer is easier to hit th cap with faster. I think we should make MMR gains and losses be similar.MMR gains and losses be the same - Yeah, just remove the softcap for 'top MMR' and it would be fine (so when you lose, you actually lose your MMR). The problem is people reach a brick wall there, and can't improve without having too many losses in a row. They get discouraged, and complain on the forums (both Killer and Survivor alike).
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@Akumakaji said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3790495#Comment_3790495
What has happened a couple if times in my games is this: you hook a surviver, roam around the map looking for survivors, chase one off, but they run to a strong loop, meanwhile a gens gets done somewhere esle, and they even got time on the clock to safe their team mate, quite often its this 10s that lets survivors easily finish their gens.
As OP said: its not a big, problematic change, but its a net loss on basically all fronts for the game: gens before friends and still go for the safe, gen jockeys can have their cake and eat it too, securing a second hook stage became much harder and it will force more killers into "tunnel or perish" situations, being backed agaisnt the wall with 2 gens remaining and just 1 hook.
I mean assuming your profile pic, what strong loop is there against a skilled Clown? Predropping a god-pallet? I dunno, I still think sufficient skill and lethality is unimpacted. This was a change that was supposed to happen when gens got bumped from 80s to 90s, to make camping not indirectly buffed as a result. To that end, I'd take both 80s gens and 60s hooks again. I won back then, and I still win now, it isn't a problem when Killer has enough skill without crutching on shortcuts.
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3790585#Comment_3790585
I mean as much as comp is not a real scene you don't see any GF's in in comp. Thats because GF is just weak against a team that has somewhat of a clue of what they're doing.
I mean yeah, stealth is always going to be far less effective against people on comms than people that aren't. Sure, I can look up profiles and see if people are friended with each other to know if they have comms before a match, and adjust my playstyle to include forcing fake callouts, but it will never be as effective as full stealth capabilities. (For reference ~5% of matches have a 4-man, let alone a clock-SWF, and ~55% of matches are/have soloq.)
If there was a comp scene where the Survivors wouldn't be allowed to be on Discord, then you would see significantly more stealth Killers in it. Sadly they restrict fun and fair perks on Survivor like: ShadowStep, Breakdown, Kindred, Prove Thyself, Saboteur, Autodidact, etc. and on Killer like: Coup De Grace, Lethal Pursuer, Nowhere To Hide, Starstruck, Devour Hope, Agi+Mad Grit, Bamboozle+Superior Anatomy, etc. Various comp scenes ban all those perfectly fine perks/combos, and don't ban comms for Stealth Killers? I can't take comp seriously when they have such wacky bo-backy rules. "Garsh, Autodidact and Devour Hope was too OP guys, we HAVE to ban them!!!" They are clowns imo. Yeah, when you customize bizarro rulesets so far divorced from the normal game, different Killers would shine, whodathunk.
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It hasn't meaningfully impacted any of my matches yet. Anyone claiming it directly impacts the match, is basically self-reporting to crutching on camping too heavily.
I've had to camp on occasion too, but I've never required it as a lynchpin strategy. It's kinda like the 8 regression limit mechanic and people saying they kept hitting it. They self-reported to camping 3-gens, and they could no longer win due to exploiting bad design.
(I will say Eruption is the exception to the rule, since it effectively changes this to 4 regression events instead of 8, and I'd be fine with the Eruption pop not counting towards the limit).
As long as Killers play more aggressively, and win through lethality (which is even possible on Ghostface), then they will still win. If a Killer is attempting to win through attrition, then it will be slightly more difficult. If the threat of 2+ people on hook isn't enough to force a rescue, then the remaining Survivors are simply ratting for Hatch, so the match is a Killer win regardless.
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3790029#Comment_3790029
I mean there's no excuse for a 3k as a ghost face in an SWF on sheltered woods. A lot of those tiles are just really safe to run.
As a Ghosty main, that is true if the Ghosty is playing 'Chaseface' playstyle (which people who don't understand Ghosty play him as such). A Ghosty played correctly gets a stalk and a lunge before the Survivor can reach the loop, or intercepts a rescue, or pushes them to a pallet deadzone so that there is no dodging the down.
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@GonnaBlameTheMovies said:
Sometimes you go on a cold streak. It happens. That doesn't mean the game is Killer-sided.
SWF isn't supposed to be a wonderguard against losing. It's just supposed to help you even the odds in a round through teamwork, that forgotten fifth Survivor perk that too many people forget.
I mean they balance around a 60% kill rate, the game definitionally is Killer-sided. That being said, I think OP's issue is recently reaching the topcap of MMR, or playing with really bad friends.
I tried playing with a newer friend, and found it equally impossible. The Killer too easily could massage that weak link for free wins, and my friend is still ratting in lockers randomly. I can't help them learn quick enough for them to deal with actual Killers playing normally. They need to practice against similar level baby Killers.
Alternatively any player recently reaching the topcap is going to be in a bad situation if they don't want to actually spend more time to learn how to play. In a normal match, the Killer would be 50, and the Survivors 40/45/55/60. That means each Surv is taking turns being the best and worst in the lobby. Once they reach the topcap, the best case for Survivor is the Killer is 75, but far more likely is the Killer will be better than them. They can no longer occasionally be the best player in the lobby (and most commonly are the worst player in the lobby) until they bring themselves up to at least 85ish.
For both problems combined, SWFs use the highest player's MMR. That means if you play with a 75/50/50/25, the matchmaking treats you all as 75s. To make things even worse, when playing in a SWF, you get artificially inflated MMR gains, and deflated losses. That means if you have a single person at the topcap in your SWF, you will take even longer to drop below the topcap than the normal loss prevention to drop below it, so it takes these 10+ losses before you even dent the 75 down to 74. If they get a win, they go right back up to 75-80, and have to lose another 10 games before they get another 'playable' match.
Basically SWF MMR adjustments are the largest problem, and an equally large problem (that also ruins Killer experiences) is the topcap loss prevention. Allow people to naturally drop MMR when they lose, and they will get playable matches again.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
I'm always curious how this is considered a player problem.
Don't mistake me here, there are certainly petty reasons people can disconnect or give up (didn't get the map or killer they wanted, for example). But that's always been the case, for both sides.
This being a more widespread issue as it has been recently isn't an indication of "more players have gotten petty", it's a game problem.
As you said, people tend to think it's not as bad to give up "if the game is over". Well, most games seem to be determined on the first couple minutes anymore. That's not the *players* fault, it's a game balance issue.
If "being found first" means the game is already over and you get 3k BP, that seems like an issue for the devs to fix... Especially if it's gotten bad enough that this many players are realizing that they just aren't getting to play the game.
If "well, unlucky" is all it takes to ruin your match, then the only response survivors have is "go next". It's not like there are actual comeback mechanics that would salvage a bad start for survivors. There's nothing if you don't have a strong start or the killer goes afk instead.
This is exactly the issue. I've always tried to bring this up to people, that addressing the symptoms doesn't fix the source problem. If you cut off branches, the tree still grows. The negative extremes are the root cause of these issues, and have been left to fester for too long.
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@GonnaBlameTheMovies said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3785063#Comment_3785063
I am also a Ghostface Main and I agree with basically all of this. He's fine and not in need of any real big buffs right now.
However I think he really should have some more value on Marking, and maybe some work needs to be done on the Reveal mechanic, it can be slightly janky.Yeah, personally my favorite add-ons are the ones where you get something for Marking or downing someone Marked. The Yellow Olsen's Journal for Oblivious on Mark enables 'pressure' Marks (where you intend to push the Survivor away from an objective, and catch them in the final 20-30s). The 3 great purples doing: 20% regression and blocking the gen for 15s on Mark (Driver's License), which is great for those mid chase tags on someone greeding the gen, Exhaustion for 5s on Mark (Victim's Detailed Routine), and 10% Haste for 5s after Marking (Drop-Leg Knife Sheath), both of the latter great for aggressive Marking. Finally, my favorite add-on in the entire game, Outdoor Security 'Iri' Cam, or Floods of Rage on a Marked down.
I partly agree that he needs help when he isn't Marking people, so I've previously suggested Hindered on Survivors when they Reveal him for the Killer Instinct duration. It should be as high as possible, but low enough that it doesn't convert Fast-Vaults into Medium-Vaults (like Clown gas does, so maybe 8-12% range). Marked people can't reveal, so you can't double penalize them with both Hindered and Exposed. Finally, having it be Hindered for the Killer Instinct duration helps make the useless add-on (Marked Map) have a use case.
I think the largest problem with the reveal mechanic is that people are used to downward facing cameras, so they don't realize they aren't actually putting him in the middle of their screen. I saw someone post a screenshot of the Ghosty clearly in the top right 25% of their screen, but they were like "why isn't he getting revealed?!?" A major issue here is most of Ghosty's stalk/lean/reveal logic was coded when the Killer was the host (and not a server). If they make leaning go back to Killer-client side, it would make him a lot more smooth to play.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3785929#Comment_3785929
You can only solo carry against Killers who left their brain in another pocket. An early Killer skill is when to drop chase, so your ability to solo carry is directly connected to whether or not the opposing Killer has learned this skill or not. The second you go against Killers who have learned this skill, they will gobble up all the baby Survs and you will still lose. Even then your solution to allied rats is to rat harder than them? I'm sorry but I don't think that is a good system.
at low level of play, the killers are not skilled enough to make good in form tactical decisions on their gameplay because they lack skills to make those plays. that is why they're at low rank killer. Just the same reason why survivors are low rank because… they lack certain skills to play better to escape their opponent. that is why when your clearly better survivor than the killer, it isn't that hard to defeat the killer however the team elements of the game require your teammates to have certain level competency for the team as a whole to escape. Sometimes that competency is not really there. that is why there is this hatch & exit gate stuff in end game for free escapes. these systems allow you to get out of poor mmr faster IF you are significantly better than your current MMR bracket suggests. In a team system, you would still get out of low MMR if your high MMR, but it would take longer.
People on the (team-based*) Survivor side of this equation would consider a 2E 'not a win' in the same way Killers would consider a 2K 'not a win'
Why would they not consider it a win? If killer agree that he didn't win then you must won. Some player won't admit they ever lose and saying that they're drew is a way of softing the blow. in my opinion, draw concept probably comes from literal MMR concept that dev are using for matching which is the killer kills two and 2 survivors escape, say each survivor = 10 mmr. You'd gain 20 MMR but lose 20 MMR = 0 MMR. They're counting the final MMR gain or Final MMR loss as win or loss. The number for going up or down is just a number to understand what level of player the matchmaker looks to pair with one another. It is matchmaking tool, not a win or loss condition. The win or loss condition is what game is about.
I guess what I'm trying to say is you are assuming a zero-sum game
All games follow zero-sum game. The goal of magic of the gathering is to deplete enemy life pool. to my knowledge, they have 20 health and when your health goes to 0. you lose. the other side wins although magic of the gathering also has bunch of alternative win conditions but let's stick with basic. that is zero-sum rule for magic.
You could consider a Draw a loss here, but both sides are losing by not getting the 3 points, not only one side. Same for DBD, if a 2K is a loss for Killer (and not a Draw), and a 2E is a loss for Survivor (because again Draws don't exist), both sides lose.
Dbd has scoring but it is only related to hooks. Hook in my opinion would be tie-break type statistic. it would be only useful if holding tournament.
For example if you have 6 teams and 8 killers. each killer is forced to play wraith. You want figure out which of 8 killer's is best wraith player vs these 6 teams and which team is best survivor team to facing wraith. Let's say each killer play each team 2 times. This means that every player would have 12 games. Suppose one killer has 5 wins and 7 losses and another killer also has 5 wins and 7 losses. when placing killer player in standing, you would look at their hook count difference. the killer with more hooks would be placed higher in standing. It would be the same for survivor teams where the team with least hooks with same win/loss ratio would be placed higher. If both teams have exact same stats, then you would look at total hook stages, than if it is still the same then maybe tiebreaker match. this is how I would go about it.
killer would always be compared to other killer players and survivors would always be compared to other survivor teams.
If I were to sum up the end of your first paragraph's point, it is that you can still win with bad teammates, but it may take longer. That is exactly my point with team-based MMR/Elo Hell, you can still win with bad teammates, and it may take longer, but you will rise. That would be better for the game than individual MMR, and Emblems would be better than both of those.
Also to address the first sentence, there are many facets to Killer that contribute to your kill rate. There are macro skills, like which gens to protect or sacrifice, which pallets to chase a weak link into in order to create a deadzone, and how long to chase each person for pallet drops or map pressure. There are also micro skills, like I know I get the lunge at the window here, or with Coup de Grace, or I get the hit with a Bamboozle window hop, or I get a max charge Demo lunge hit here, etc. The combination of both micro and macro skills determines someone's overall skill, or overall kill rate. You could go against a god Demo, but they have a babies understanding of macro, thus will chase anyone anywhere. You could go against a god macro gamer, but sucks at chase, and keeps lunging when they can't hit, but still gets pallet drops and prevents gens from completing and wins through attrition. My point was it requires just enough macro skill in one category to nullify solo hard carrying, and you can solo win against anyone that lacks that skill. You can't solo hard carry against anyone with that skill high enough though, even if they are garbage at many other facets of the game.
Why would Survs not consider a 2E a win? - Maybe because they consider it a tie. Maybe they use your definition of needing to have their side have more sub-wins than sub-losses (aka 3E is the minimum for a Survivor win). Maybe they only count their personal sub-win/loss, or in other words if the singular person escaped or got killed, and they were among the 2 people killed in a 2E. All of these are normal points of view that would mean 2Es are 'not a win', or a loss when draws don't exist.
All games are zero-sum games - Back when we used Emblem based matchmaking, you could have multiple people (even on opposite sides) 'winning'/'pipping', or multiple 'losing'/'depipping'. So that already is contradicted without checking other games. Even then, multiplayer magic isn't zero-sum, because in a 4-way free for all, there is 1 winner and 3 losers. Zero-sum would need an equal number of winners and losers. Heck, the game is asymmetrical to start with, so you can only make each individual Survivor compared against Killer be zero-sum. In a 3K and a gate escape, the Gate Escape person 'won' against the Killer, even if the Killer 'won' against the other 3 Survs. We have been mixing up using independent and team based 'wins' and 'losses' at different points of each of our posts, so hopefully we haven't been speaking past each other assuming independent when the other mean team, and vice-versa.
Hooks are better for granular measures - I agree here. I would much prefer the game be based on 8 hooks (and 0K) being the tie/draw condition, or even saying if that happens before all gens are popped, then it counts as a Killer win. I would also consider 9+ hooks post the final gen pop a Killer win (when Survivors are also playing under that knowledge, and don't go for endgame rescues for funsies). I would also consider camped/death on first hook 2 extra hook states as lesser, but I'm not sure by how. Although a 3K should (probably) be a guaranteed Killer win, regardless of hook states.
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Personally I think self-healing shouldn't count as a CA unless the heal is completed. They have already established that being healed (fully) in and of itself isn't a CA. This completes the intention of preventing touching gens to lose the protections. It also still would protect you if A: you accidentally tap the button off hook, or B: you start healing (safely) in a corner and someone else draws the Killer over to you from them attempting to heal you.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3785619#Comment_3785619
Elo Hell already exists when people are ratting the second things get heated, and aiming for Hatch/Wake Up+Sole Survivor plays.
Not really. If your way better than your opponent as survivor, you will solo carry/5 gen chase the killer. If your team dies due to incompetency, you can run sole survivor+wake up and escape through exit gate. it won't count as big MMR win but you won't lose mmr. on average, you will have positive escape-rate thus pushing you out of wrong MMR faster. In a team based system, you escaping through exit gate as solo survivor = loss.
if they want to have 'more kills than escapes net over a day/week/month' as their winstreak, its still a winstreak.
Yes you can make up your own win streak. What i am talking about is general perceived team win-rate for survivor compared to killer win-rate.
what counts as win is what killer perceives as loss. For most people that play killer, I would wager that most people playing killer would not consider 0 kill, 1 kill and 2 kill as winning. I mean you could make a poll that asks, "do you consider a 2k a win? Yes/No. ".. I am pretty sure that most killer would answer no.
You can only solo carry against Killers who left their brain in another pocket. An early Killer skill is when to drop chase, so your ability to solo carry is directly connected to whether or not the opposing Killer has learned this skill or not. The second you go against Killers who have learned this skill, they will gobble up all the baby Survs and you will still lose. Even then your solution to allied rats is to rat harder than them? I'm sorry but I don't think that is a good system.
"… general percieved team win-rate for survivor compared to killer win-rate." - People on the (team-based*) Survivor side of this equation would consider a 2E 'not a win' in the same way Killers would consider a 2K 'not a win'. *(If they were only worried about if a specific person escapes then that is a separate condition that we haven't been talking about thus far.) That just goes back to my previous issue of a 2K/2E is a loss for all players in the case where Draws/Ties don't exist. A win for one side doesn't force a loss on the other side when you ignore Draws/Ties. It just either upgrades or downgrades all Draws/Ties to both sides win or both sides lose.
In Magic the Gathering tourneys (last I played), they consider a win to be worth 3 points, a draw worth 1, and a loss worth 0. That means the game integrity can be compromised when it is better for 2 equally skilled players to take turns surrendering to each other, giving each other 3 points across 2 games instead of 2 points each with draws. You could consider a Draw a loss here, but both sides are losing by not getting the 3 points, not only one side. Same for DBD, if a 2K is a loss for Killer (and not a Draw), and a 2E is a loss for Survivor (because again Draws don't exist), both sides lose.
I guess what I'm trying to say is you are assuming a zero-sum game, where if one side wins the other side loses. Then you create the conditions where draws don't exist, which makes draws losses (or wins) for both sides. Then instead of checking did X side win, you check 1-Y side for side X's winrate. It would have been much simpler to ask 'did the Survs win', but you are instead deciding to take the roundabout method of checking and falsely assuming "If Killer loses, Survivor wins".
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3785429#Comment_3785429
here is my recap from last 5 matches:
3 of 5 matches, first survivor got two-tapped after i found them quite fast into the match. Immediately after got downed, boom, i hear sound cue and bot exchanges them. The remaining of two, only one person in both matches was skilled in terms of chase, others were so terrible they didn't even know how to hug environment objects in loops.
Which draws my answer to your question regarding my last paragraph. What makes killer get an almost guaranteed win and survivors almost guaranteed loss. Your answer hides in 3 things:
- matchmaking
- skill
- different goals in the match (win, xy amount of glyphs, random challenge)/simply griefing.
First of all, matchmaking is awful, thanks to community that wanted very low queue times and paid the price of very inaccurate skill level of people in their lobby. This means that your soloq matches are pretty much going to be pretty colorful in terms of players skill.
Second, skill. A huge paradox in dbd that is mutual to both low and high hours players. People lack basic ingame skills, especially regarding the strongest and most important one, chase.
Average chase time per hook stage of a high skill player (info from DbDL 1v1 ladders and tourneys) against A-D tier killers is 1min 30s. Minimum chase time against S tiers is 60s (2 perk slots taken only)
Now let's compare that with average pub match.
~60s average individual chase time...per whole match woth full perk loadout. Meaning average survivor lasts 60s in chase for all hook stages total, average skilled survivor lasts the same in just one chase against S-tier killers as average survivor lasts in whole match. That draws conclusion that skill is the biggest problem of survivors performing so bad.
Lastly, regarding fun, it's a very subjective term so balancing around "fun" is not possible in any game because everyone has different definitions of fun. Games are meant to be balanced around both sides having as close to 50% winrate on high skill levels.
Yeah that was kinda my point with 'what DC would have been spun positively (Survivor sided in this context) for the stats'. You got a quick double tap that basically meant you were so much more skilled than them, that it was your game to lose by AFKing by 3-5 minutes or something similarly extreme. It was going to be a 3K/4K (Hatch RNG/slug dependent), and now that Killer win is not being counted towards the stats.
I largely agree with the 3 points, but all of those skew in favor of Killer stats.
Matchmaking: I think game health was better under Emblems being the matchmaking driver, even if newer players who played too much, sometimes got to Red ranks in their first month. Also too many people are ego-driven, and think they cannot be assailed since they reached the tippy top of matchmaking. This game has the top 25% in the highest rank, whereas games like CS or SC or League or DOTA2 have at the minimum top 1% as their highest rank. That is such a huge range of skill levels. Where I think most Killer complaints come from is the 75-80% (the weakest of the top 25%) range, since by the time they reach the 85-95% range, they have too many weaker Survivors all but guaranteeing a Killer win.
Skill: I too think no matter what, I can outskill my opponents (or learn from my loss and know how to win the next one), but as a linked concept, I can't outskill my teammates for a positive result. Soloq will always drag people down (and to be quite honest, my SWF as well - we are having fun from shared enjoyment/goofing off, not winning). I do think that when a SWF is all individually skilled players, going to the extreme to call out clocks, they can be nearly unstoppable, I just find those too rare to concern myself with. I don't stay in my house for fear of a meteor strike or lightning strike, so I think I can survive the 5 minutes of a sweat SWF teabagging since it will be over quick enough.
Different goals: Yeah I think this is the most fair argument for kill/win stats being out of whack. So many Survivor tomes are outright 'throw the game' tomes. What is even worse, is that you never know if someone is catching back up on older tomes, which also are throw tomes. The most recent tome I gotta say had surprisingly minimal 'throw the game' type challenges, and I just hope more tomes aren't just made to artificially adjust kill rates for a short time.
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In regard to games being balanced/fun at both sides having roughly equal chances at high skill levels, I partially agree. I think its best when the game overall roughly matches that, otherwise you might have a game where there are not enough casuals to support the game. Even then, if we look at the last stats BHVR gave us, I feel like the opposite has happened.
Now I can understand if you were to take the argument that 4 SWF is close, but my argument is that soloq odds of winning drop too sharply. I mean heck, look at the difference between 3 SWF + soloq vs 4 SWF, 1 solo drops ~6% (additively). Even all skill levels have soloq dropping ~1% (additively). If anything, all High MMRs should be higher than their Overall equivalent, but never exceeding 50%.
Our current problem is soloq is too detrimental to win chances, so more information should be shared between Survivors. Stuff like perks seen in the pause menu (not lobby, since people might dodge adepts/No Mithers), anti-facecamp bar visible to all Survs, and a dialogue wheel with lines like "Someone help" and "The Killer is near me" to say when someone should head over or stick on gens.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3785565#Comment_3785565
I can make winstreaks include numerous prior matches, so as long as you win more than you lose, it still counts. "I have 100 kills and 50 escapes as Killer, so my winstreak stands unless I get 51 escapes in a row without a single kill.
No. That is called a Kill-rate.
I just think when we have such a clear metric of Kill/Escape, the side with more of their desired result, wins. If neither side has more, then neither side wins, thus a draw.
Every game has a final goal. a mission, an objective. I don't think dbd is about counting score. there is like counting score like…hooks but I would consider the game more about Escaping as team VS killer killing the team.
The only reason why MMR is not team based because it creates a problem called Elo hell. This is where a player takes longer to climb out of MMR ranks if they're good player because the team isn't as strong as the player. For example, you could be a master survivor player but your team is full of bronze players and killer is bronze player. If killer goes after all bronze players, you might not be able to win as survivor player because team aspect of the game. You will eventually climb out of Elo hell because you will eventually get bronze teammates half competent and your master skill will carry you out of bronze but it takes longer for system to place you in the correct spot. absolute team systems are better but they have a bit downside in unorganized ranking environments.
Tournament use absolute team win systems where as unorganized ranking environment tend to prefer solo ranking system. This also has deep philosophy type ideas like… which team is stronger, a team 4 super stars or team with 4 good player that work together to win. this should answer question for why MMR wins does not reflect the absolute win condition of the game.
You already established a winstreak can be using any definition someone wants, even unconnected to anything hard connected to the game's definitions, so if they want to have 'more kills than escapes net over a day/week/month' as their winstreak, its still a winstreak.
The game already has the metric of whether you win or lose, in the form of MMR. It used to be Emblems, what I believe to be a system better for the game health. If someone were to hypothetically datamine their MMR between each match, a '+' would be a win, and a '-' would be a loss. Since that type of behavior is not allowed, we make up 3K or 4K or net positive K/E for our 'wins', hoping the kills or escapes actually gave enough MMR to actually 'win'.
Elo Hell already exists when people are ratting the second things get heated, and aiming for Hatch/Wake Up+Sole Survivor plays. If you play with a baby Surv, them dying makes it far far far more likely for you to die as well. Team MMR (when using only Kill and Escape for MMR metrics) would actually help prevent elo hell, because people would know that ratting isn't winning, and they need to actually help the team to win. Emblems, again, I think are far more better at measuring independent impact on a match from everyone.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3785513#Comment_3785513
I don't believe in draws. the objective of survivor is to escape through exit gate. Killers have concept called win-streaks. You can define win-streak as 4k's only but I would define winstreak's as killer as 3k or 4k mainly because end game for killer is rng based unless killer runs Whispers and slug 3rd survivor to get 4th survivor. For a killer to not consider a win, At least 2 survivor must escape through gate. When a killer does not consider their match as win, they conversely believe the opposite result. A loss.
A draw would mean that neither survivor escape and killer did not complete their kill objective. It is a result that is not conclusive. How you would achieve this as survivor is hiding for 60 minutes until server closes. For killer, in order achieve this result, you have to defend a 3 gen for 60 minutes preventing the survivor from escaping. Both of these rare and almost never occur.
I mean when you play so fast and loose with definitions, I can make winstreaks include numerous prior matches, so as long as you win more than you lose, it still counts. "I have 100 kills and 50 escapes as Killer, so my winstreak stands unless I get 51 escapes in a row without a single kill." That is a 'valid' winstreak with this framework.
I just think when we have such a clear metric of Kill/Escape, the side with more of their desired result, wins. If neither side has more, then neither side wins, thus a draw.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
2 escape through exit gate is all that killer needs to consider the game not a win. Survivor's win condition is 2 Escape. 3 and 4 man escape is killer humiliation. Just extra salt on wound and extra T-bag ego.
2 is a tie/draw, which is separate from a null (which is Hatch, which throws out the results/has no impact on MMR). A tie is a equal win/loss for both sides. So if a Killer loses in a 2K, Survivors as a team lose in a 2E, and if a Killer wins in a 2K, Survivors as a team win in a 2E.
You can't just say draws count as Survivor wins since they aren't Killer wins. I mean I guess you could, but they you would have to remain logically consistent in saying draws are a Survivor loss, because it isn't a Killer loss. That would make it so 0E/1E/2E are Survivor losses, and 0K/1K/2K are Killer losses. Thus making 2K/2E the worst case scenario for everyone, since all players lose.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3785314#Comment_3785314
I would not agree with Xeno and Ghostface getting that. You can already pull off some pretty sneaky mindgames with crouching at loops as GF that a lot of killers can't do and in general you shouldn't really be chasing a whole lot with him anyway, it's not the best way to use his power. Xeno in power is already strong as it is.
Myers definitely needs some attention but I feel like there are more interesting ways they could buff him than just handing him MFT in tier 3. Though I do agree that tier 3 should be more threatening and/or could use something extra (he also needs his early game to be less of a hindrance, such as by reducing the stalk needed to get out of tier 1 and making tier 1 speed 4.4m/s instead of 4.2).
Hard agree with 4.4 Myers T1. If Scratched Mirror is oppressive at 4.4, they can slowly test hindered with it down to 4.35/4.3/4.25 or all the way back down to 4.2 if need be.
Also agreed with alternative stalk amounts per tier. They could have T1→T2 take 1 Evil point (from 5), and the first T2→T3 take 9 Evil points (from 5, but still 10 total for the first T1→T3).
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If you count Survivors as a team, forcing 3E/4E only for Survivor wins, then sets of 5 games comes out to 22% (with all permutations I could find), with 28% draws/2Es. If you throw out draws, you get ~31% winrate. Technically as you include more sets of games, you get a more and more clearer picture, and personally I'm sure you would close in to a ~40% winrate with law of large numbers pushing things that way (again, if you throw out draws).
Another factor to consider is the rate of DCs. BHVR throws out DCs in their stats, so if Killers DC at 25% the rate of Survivors it is fair and fine. However, if Killer DCs over 25% of Survivor DCs, then Kill rates are inflated artificially, or in other words lets just say 55% real instead of 60% fake (no math for this napkin 'sake of argument' estimate). Also, if the Killer DCs under 25% of Survivor DCs, then the opposite happens, and Kill rates are deflated artificially, or lets say 65% real kill rate instead of 60% fake (again, I didn't do the math for this napkin 'sake of argument' estimate). Personally (as in from my matches on both sides) I think Killer DCs are about 10% of Survivor DCs, so real kill rates are even higher than 60% by however much that actually shakes out to.
There also is an argument that a DC results in a 4K/4E regardless (depending on which side had the DC), so you need 100% Killer to Survivor DCs to break even (or even 60SDC-40KDC rates to match the intended kill rates to go further in the weeds). Regardless of the specifics, the Survivor DC rate IME is far far far greater than the Killer DC rate, which would mean higher kill rates aren't being counted as a result.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3785145#Comment_3785145
don't forget that only matches with DC don't count. Every other kind of match where survivors forfeit in any other way is counted into stats.
My matches as killer, honestly even after a break, i saw survivors giving up even more (depipping removal had even more impact on it). I chase a survivor, they get...stuck at object during chase and get literally 2-tapped. I had a chase just like that against a 4k hours survivor yesterday.
But when you look at average total chase times of individual survivors (for all both hook stages during which they are alive) per match are around 1 minute, you just realize how bad average survivor is.
What match where someone wasn't fully feeling it going to ever be considered positively towards the stats?
My matches (where I never go in with the plan to camp/tunnel, and only match Survivor energy) nearly never have people hard give up unless I have say… 6 hooks at 5 gens. That match is already won by Killer, and Survivors giving up is merely speeding up the foregone conclusion.
I'm not sure I'm getting the last paragraph's point. If Survivors are so bad it makes the game ez pz lemon squeezy, then isn't Killer a near guaranteed win? That would be annoying to play Survivor with a near guaranteed loss, wouldn't it?
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Overall my complaints are that Survivor's negative extremes are too low (like -3/10 instead of 1/10 like it should be), and those extremes need to be minimized. If a baby teammate is tunneled, as you put it, they are going down in chase regardless, so if they give up, the Kobes did nothing to change the outcome, it already was a Killer win. When a Killer decides to bleedout a Survivor seeking the 4k, that forces 4m of wasted time, compared to exit gates tbags for 2m (not even accounting for minimum 2 victim's 4m being wasted in the bleedout scenario). When someone hard Kobes/DCs against specific Killers, because that Killer is so unfun to go against that a Kobe/DC is more fun, maybe that Killer should be looked at, or Killer bans in place to make sure that only fun matches exist (personally I recommend 1ban/5 Killers round down). That also ensures that Killers players are only going against people that want to go against that Killer (although Killers might need a map ban to prevent their own negative extremes like Ghosty on Autohaven or Billy on RPD, with map offerings negating a ban, but only placing the map back in the pool, not forcing it, or simply refunding the map offering and doing nothing).
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@NerfDHalready said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3785042#Comment_3785042
hatch would mean death anyway so there will be nothing to hide for. and again, it should be like 2 or 3 minutes of waiting in case the last survivor is able to finish the last gen(s).
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3785068#Comment_3785068
people would gather somewhere else and take others to hatch while killer is just trying to play the game normally so the problem with old hatch wasn't keys. as fun as it was for survivors, old hatch was one of the most obnoxiously unfair things in this game.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3785085#Comment_3785085
i think you mean hatch offerings, but there might be a gate across the map killer won't make it to in time, or straight undefendable gates even if survivor doesn't get on one instantly. and of course there is s🤢le survivor so killer still is risking the escape and will slug for 4k if they are aware.
It was unfair to counter unfair in this worst case scenario for Killer. I'd say that breaks even, not even going into the good scenarios I previously listed, and didn't list at all. Hatch isn't a win, its a null/draw. It is (in the current game environment) and was (spawning logic) fine. Keys were the issue without an interaction bar.
Now if you wanna complain about 'Hatch standoff' old Hatch, I'm with you, but pre-Mikaela Hatch was the best for the game thus far.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3785077#Comment_3785077
He is macro inefficient because his marking is time-sink. He spends time walking around marking unsuspecting survivors in a game that realistic moves at mach 12 speed.
What GF achieves in undetectable instant downs is what Leatherface achieves with near 0 preparation and few undetectable perks .
The time sink is removing a chase. As long as the time to set up a Marked down is less than a chase (or downed an injured Surv by denying a chase from proper stealth), then you played Macro M2 Ghosty correctly.
I'm sure you could do that as Bubba, but then you would be making my point for me once again. Someone who has specialized in playing the game the 'right' way with their kit, can accomplish wins easily.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3785075#Comment_3785075
game has 5 possible outcomes for killer: 0k, 1k, 2k, 3k and 4k. Count each outcome as 20%. Technical killer bare win condition for minimum MMR points gain is 3k, meaning if average killrate is 60%, winrate is close to 50%. Nobody focuses percentage for the game to be killer sided (even though it is still far from killer sided), it's just that players don't understand basic math behind killrates and that killrate ≠ winrate.
And let's not forget how many additional factors impact killrates and are counted in the percentage, such as failing to kobe and intentionally speeding up dying process on hook and griefing teammates by working with the killer.
You are right! It would be foolish to simply say kill rate = winrate, lets do some math! Wait, I just did the math in another thread!
Hmm, we get 50% Killer, 22% Survivor, 28% Draw. Or if you want to take out Draws, ~69% Killer, ~31% Survivor. Heck, even if you want to be favorable and give the Draws out as 50-50 (14% each) for both sides, that still is 64% Killer vs 36% Survivor. So when you do the math, it actually is even MORE Killer sided.
As far as the inflated numbers concept, I agree. When DCs don't count towards the stats, and Survivor DCs are far more common, that would mean someone who had to actually play through a match with a teammate DC felt the loss, but their pain was discounted/ignored by the BHVR stats. In other words, DCs mean the killrate is even higher than stated/aimed.
That's why I think using a killrate = winrate is actually a generous metric when speaking against Killer specific complaints, because it is the most favorable to Killers. I would do the same when speaking against Survivor complaints, to give them the best odds when I oppose the specific complaint being voiced.
(Also as far as MMR specific things, it is based on the MMR of each person, and reduced per subsequent person. That means if you kill a babysurv first, you get the least MMR. Also if you kill a godsurv first, you could theoretically go positive if all the other Survs were also godsurvs [with your loss against a godsurv making you lose the least amount of MMR].)
Edit: Fixed some mistyped numbers
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3785059#Comment_3785059
a lot of m1 killer already have speed boosts because m1 chasing is unnaturally slow against a experience looper. it is called bloodlust 1. I am just saying that you might as well give these killer super blood lust 1 and they still wouldn't outperform the superior mechanic chase killers.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3785063#Comment_3785063
you can say whatever you want but ghostface is weaker than dozens of killers in the game. This game is about time efficiency. Map mobility is only one of several ways to gain time efficiency as killer. Not every killer has to gain time efficiency through same means.
Thanks for making exactly my point, Ghosty is time efficient as a Macro M2 Killer.
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@Hex_KillerMainBTW said:
Have you seen what most of the cosmetics are catered to? Survivors. They're either lonely guys who love cute outfits on girls or people who play survivor for the "thrill" and flashy clothes. Of course the devolopers will make gameplay easier on survivors. If a killer tunnels they they're being "sweaty." It's not sweat. Y'all can run around and do what you want. Playing fair? It's a 4v1. 8v2 was a joke with limited killers available and perks. Survivors have 16 perks they can use compared to a killer with 4. Make it more balanced and let killers have the ability to use half of that. It's a stupid game that just needs to die. I uninstalled, done with this game. Let the survivors laugh and say "get good."
Hmmm the people who see their skin the entire match, or the people whose opponents see the skin, garsh that's surprising! /s
As far as tunnels, I think this is based on intent. If the Bubba is autopiloting towards the closest Survivor, that's fine, but when he purposely slugs the person bodyblocking to get the tunnel on the other person, that is what people mean by 'sweaty'.
For 'playing fair', the game is designed around a 60% kill rate, so the game is Killer sided definitionally. Same with the perks, the Survivor perks are designed to have 1/4th the impact of Killer perks. I mean are you going to seriously make the argument that 16 No Mithers would be more powerful than 4 random Killer perks, simply because they have 4x the perks? There has to be a calculation involved in perk strength, and you just ignored that.
At least you did learn your lesson and uninstall. I'm foolish enough to still play this game on occasion with friends, and am often miserable as a result.
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@TieBreaker said:
Yeah this isn't a fix to make the game better. There's no accounting for why survivors get stuck not being able to progress the game, and attempting to remedy it. This fix just makes getting a 4K much easier, whilst tilting the game's balance further towards the role of killer.
I don't know how to fix the hatch, but I can guarantee that it will involve more than just changing the hatch itself. There's no easy fix for this problem.
The best 'fix' for Hatch is to revert it's spawning logic to the pre-Mikaela version, but with the post-Mikaela Keys. That punished tunneling with draws instead of wins, and still forced Survivors to pop gens to get Hatch to spawn. Post-Mikaela Keys prevents the insta-open that was the problem. Finally if one person ratted out of a Hatch without their teammate(s), then the match still ends with the EGC (although I would extend the gate timers by 5s per gen remaining).
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3784914#Comment_3784914
i mean, let's face it, ghostface will never be as good as blight. So Having a highest base m/s for weak killers might be good play. I think Myer's tier 3 and GF could easily be 4.7 m/s.
As a Ghosty main (and a Myers aficionado), he doesn't need it. He needs players willing to learn and 'git gud'. Ghosty's biggest weakness is playing as an M1 Killer, rather than a macro M2 Killer. The strength of Ghosty is having an on-demand 1-hit, be it Exposed, or Undetectable against injured. Playing him like an M1 Killer is the biggest noob trap because it seems like how you are supposed to play him, which results in people crouch+M2+17m camping hooks, which does get results (like old Bubba facecamping when people refuse to pump gens).
Ghosty spends time getting multiple people stalked, so that he can instadown a would-be rescuer and force another person off a gen or risk a 2nd stage for free (getting that natural slowdown or accelerating the game to a close on both ends). If they greed and gen b4 fren (either by hooks or heals), then he still has instadowns ready. Also with stealth Killer noises being the only tell, you can get the 1-hit before they reach a window/pallet (barring Sprint Burst) if you know how to approach (and aren't playing garbage anti-stealth maps like Autohaven/Macmillan's which don't have enough LOS blockers in good spots).
Heck, Ghosty's crouch is even good enough anti-loop as long as you are playing on a real map (not Autohaven), since you can crouch to hide behind the tall walls, and M2 to remove red stain. Basically sweatlords love Autohaven, and they think Ghosty sucks since Autohaven is Ghosty's worst realm (even worse than Badham). To be clear, I don't think that map variety is a problem, I think that it is actually good for the game. I just find it silly when people complain about RPD so they can't use Huntress or Billy as well, while Ghosty and Myers find Autohaven/Macmillan equally (or even more) unplayable.
Also the main thing that makes most Killers unable to compete is raw map mobility. If there was a 5-8s PacMan styled edgemap teleport to the other side of the map as a basekit feature, I think that would help most M1 Killers far more. I personally would give it a sound effect, but also allow the Killer to fake it and make the sound without TPing, that way stealth approaches against the closest people can still work post visible hook/genkick/down.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3783659#Comment_3783659
This was a pretty popular suggestion when it came to buffing DS. And the Devs just went with increasing the Stun Time (and then nerfing it again so that you dont really see the Perk).
Disabling the power of the Killer for quite some time would be an excellent anti-tunnel measurement. And it would also hit the strong Killers harder, since a weak Killer like Trapper would not really be hindered by that since you probably wont set a Trap immediatly when going after the Survivor, yet rushing or blinking after them after getting hit with DS would just render DS useless.
Exactly, it is such a perfect solution since it makes most Killers equal if they decide to tunnel. Also IIRC they said they 'couldn't do it', not they 'wouldn't do it', which was so strange that they said that immediately before or after that event.
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Dark Arrogance was just so poorly thought out. Only 10% faster than Bamboozle, without a window block, AND with drawbacks? It would have been fine without the drawbacks at all, but honestly with them, it arguably should be up at 30-35%.
Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of a stronger perk that comes with a drawback, but this simply isn't stronger than anything remotely near it.
I agree with @ReverseVelocity in that it should increase pickup speed as well. It would match the risk/reward of pallet stuns lasting longer.
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@Bookern said:
Devs confirmed they aint gonna disable killers power in any form
It's so funny, the Halloween event did just that in the ghost zone. They should just implement that concept for if the Killer hits DS/OTR for 5s/gen remaining.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3783299#Comment_3783299
The problem is that every average is made up of many numbers.
No, again, the problem is that you don't know what an average is. Let's take 10 players in 10 matches, 5 of them do only 3Ks, the other 5 only 1Ks. The average kills per match is 2 survivors killed per match, which is a 50% kill rate per match on average, which again, means that killers draw their matches on average.
That's it. Anything else is product of your imagination.
You ignored all the math and did none yourself, and are jumping hoops of logic to suit your narrative even when faced with hard evidence to the contrary.
Funny, because that's what you guys are doing. Either because lack of knowledge, or simply because like you said doesn't fit your narrative.
And I'm done. At this point, you either understand it, or you simply not want to.
The first paragraph was my entire point (on the topic of averages), that an average can have different results depending on how it is made up. Thank you for finally agreeing with me after all.
The second paragraph says we did none of the math…
@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3782970#Comment_3782970
I'm pretty sure someone did the math before, and a 60% killrate means closer to an average 60% winrate, not 50%.
I'll try to walk through the idea conceptually. Sets of 5 matches, 20 Survivors, 12 kills, 8 escapes. 60% killrate.
Cases with Escape/Kill
1.Most 4E 2.Most 3E 3.Most 2E 4.Most 3K 5.Most 3K with Most 3E (or 2E)
(If there are more possible permutations feel free to include them in your reply)
EEEE EEEK EEKK EEEE EEEK
EEEE EEEK EEKK EKKK EEKK
KKKK EEKK EEKK EKKK EKKK
KKKK KKKK EEKK EKKK EKKK
KKKK KKKK KKKK EKKK EKKKKiller/Survivor/Draw %s
60/40/0 40/40/20 20/0/80 80/20/0 60/20/20 - using these for the averages, same result as #s
Killer/Survivor/Draw #s3/2/0 2/2/1 1/0/4 4/1/0 3/1/1
AVG. 52% Killer win, 24% Survivor win, 24% Draw.
No draws is 68% Killer win, 32% Survivor win.
(260/500 or 260/380 for Killer, 120/500 or 120/380 for Surv, 120/500 for Draw)
Heck, even being favorable and splitting Draws 50-50 (rather than 60-40) for both gives 64/36 Killer favored.IME condition 4 or 5 is probably the most common, but mileage may vary. So while theoretically condition 2 fits your premise, all the other cases still exist and are contributing to the math. Plus I'm sure law of large numbers would converge on a 60/40 winrate with draws thrown out, but it still looks dire with Killer winning roughly double as Survivor on average with or without draws.
One flaw is we don't know how Hatch is counted. Do they count it as an escape, or do they discard the result as a draw like they said they treat it as such for MMR? Hypothetically if the 3Ks were all Hatch escapes across the conditions, and they throw out Hatches, that could add an extra 7 results. That could add EKKK (Hatch for an 8th result extra) into EEEK (to maintain ~60% kill rate with 4/7K 58% since the Hatch didn't count), adjusting the stats to 52% KW, 26% SW, 22% Draw, or 67% KW, 33% SW with draws thrown out.
So yeah, overall Killer has double the winrate of Survivor with a quick math check.
(I figured out 5 more missing cases before I posted this: 4E/3E/1E/0E/0E, 4E/2E/2E/0E/0E, 4E/2E/1E/1E/0E, 3E/2E/2E/1E/0E, and 2E/2E/2E/1E/1E for a cumulative total of 50 matches, with 25 Killer wins (50%), 14 Draws (28%), and 11 Survivor wins (22%) or without draws ~69% KW, ~31% SW. That makes the odds even worse for Survivor wins in both draw or no draw scenarios.)
What was this entire post then? Did you post a refuttal proving my methodology or arithmetic wrong? No? Then it would stand to be accurate, or you accept it as accurate, otherwise it would have been easily disproven. I mean if I made such a simple mistake as 1+3=25, I'm sure you would have jumped on that. That would mean our (or at the very least, my own, I didn't double check them so I take them with a grain of salt as well) point(s) is(are) supported by hard evidence.
To the last sentence I say 'every accusation is a confession'. Since you have nothing to fall back on, you have baseless accusations, against claims defended by math.
@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3783479#Comment_3783479
you explained incorrectly. the fact that there is such high variance in the data set is a reason specifically to Not extrapolate based on the average of all those data, not a reason you Have to.
Then again, explain to me how would you balance DbD with only those data sets, when:
- The win conditions for both sides are completely asymmetrical.
- You can't directly compare skill levels of both sides, as they require completely different sets of skills and game sense.
- One side is a team of 4 players that can have different skill levels.
- That side is not even considered a team per win conditions, and each individual player in it will win or lose individually.
- You have 5 possible match outcomes, which define the wins or losses of 5 different players.
Come on, explain the correct way of doing it without taking in count nothing else that those data sets, if I'm so wrong in my explanation of how and why.
this is what I mean, you fundamentally don't understand why just the average kill rate is not a helpful stat for the kind of analysis you're trying to do
Maybe because I never, here or in any of the past post about this topic, argued that only having the kill rate is helpful to anything, not I'm trying to do any "kind of analysis".
What I had always said and argue is that "For balancing reasons, the kill rate should be 60%, and having it being that number is the only way the game will be balanced between killers and survivors" in response to everytime you people had claimed that it being 60% means the game is killer sided, and I had explained in detail how and why it has to be that way multiple times already.
Just that. Like I said to @mizark3 earlier, anything else is product of your imagination.
And again, I've said they already explained the why, "horror themes". It has to be close enough (for the game to be fun), but also lean Killer sided (to match the aesthetic/tone). I don't even disagree with that being the case. I do think a 60% killrate is fine, but I also acknowledge that makes the game Killer sided.
In general, what I care about more is people above and below the target balance rate, and more importantly, the why. If someone has sub-60% killrates, they likely aren't good, and above-60% killrates means they are likely better. Pre 6.1 I won the same as after 6.1 (because my playstyle didn't involve letting Survivors proc DS/UB), but the killrates on average raised. Since they deleted all meaningful anti-tunnel in 6.1 (and people slowly caught on to the 3-gen perks), weaker Killers started crutching on tunneling (and eventually 3-genning) to kill/win, and there was nothing soloq Survivors could do about it. The immediate 'why' was deletion of anti-tunnel (and eventually 3-genning).
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@Neaxolotl said:
Ah look, we are still discussing as if kill rates means anything meaningful
It's quite obvious survivors are fundamentally easier to lose just because of stupidity(mostly for teammates and challenges) rather than game balance, while not so much for killers, it only makes sense to aim for slightly higher KR especially if they want to make a horror game
It doesn't really matter if numbers are 50/50 or 60/40 or 70/30, because none of those numbers shows actual game health, if devs decided to aim for 60% there is a reason for it, and it's not hard to understand slightly higher KR is basically healthier for the game
Yeah that is true. The game was at its healthiest for everyone before patch 6.1, and that had ~50-55% killrates on average IIRC. BHVR's attempts to raise kill rates destabilized the game, and gave us the worst metas of all time (Call of Brine+Overcharge+Eruption and camping 3 gens from the onset). Although they did reach their much desired 60% killrates lol (and passed it, once more and more people caught on to 3 genning as their only game plan).
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3783093#Comment_3783093
Now "an average" is "super tortured logic" and trolling. My entity…
A 2K on average means that killers have a 0% win rate on average because there will be people that do more than that 2K and people that do less. That's why it is AN AVERAGE. It is pure, simple, basic math.
And yes, anything more than a 2K would be a win, as the MMR win conditions state that a 3K is a win, but no, anything less won't be a survivor win because survivors have their own win conditions, and that's why BHVR doesn't deal with win rates or pure kill distributions, because then it will be impossible to balance the game between killers and survivors thanks to the total and complete asymmetrical nature of it.
And no, a "2.4K" on average won't mean a 100% winrate because you have the ".4" part, and if you do the math, it means that killers get a 3K about 40% of the time on average, and that's why a 60% kill rate / 2.4 survivors killed per match on average means a 40% win rate for both sides on average.
Seriously, I'd pay to see how some people's brains work.
The problem is that every average is made up of many numbers. A 2k Average can be 2K/2E, or a 4E and a 4K, or a 3K and a 3E. In those 3 cases, only 1 of them has a 0% winrate, and even then it is a 100% draw rate. Heck, even draws are often considered a half win, or 1 point for a draw and 3 for a win, so even in the most extreme circumstances draws still count towards win counts.
Then I truly don't understand how you can counter your own points in the 2nd and 3rd paragraphs. "And yes, anything more than 2k would be a win, …" in the context of Killer, then contradict yourself saying "2.4k on average won't mean a 100% winrate because you have the .4 part…". You tried to justify that by "if you do the math", but I literally did the math in the previous post which showed closer to ~70/30 winrates for Killer at 60% killrates, or ~50/25/25 if you include draws.
You ignored all the math and did none yourself, and are jumping hoops of logic to suit your narrative even when faced with hard evidence to the contrary. That's why everyone is thinking you are the one trolling. When you ignore what must happen to make an average to push the idea that 2K average means 3Ks and 4Ks CANNOT exist, then it is impossible for you to not be joking.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3783046#Comment_3783046
Except the average of 50% killrate is 2 survivors killed per match. And, because a win is 3K or more, that means a 0% winrate on average. In other words, that 0% is not the result of doing the average of kill rates, as you are saying.
That you are trying to give anyone lessons when you have proved again and again that you don't understand even the most basic math is outstanding.
This is super tortured logic, but it is also flawed definitionally. 2K is a draw/tie, thus anything more than a 2K is a Killer win, and anything less is a Survivor win. If you want to use this backwards logic, then 100% of these 'theoretical average' 2.4K games are Killer wins, since 2.4>2.
If you don't concede or go back on this point, I have to assume you are just blatantly trolling.
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3782860#Comment_3782860
you are admitting to frequent VPNing
lol, I play with 25-30ms ping :D
most survivors don't get even close to me, so I doubt it's on my side
but you said it happened to you, which mean it exists… So thanks for proving my point.I said it worked correctly in the week after Pallet/DH validation, then they rolled it back to 200+ latency (presumably) since it stopped working (outside of giga VPN level latency, like playing 2v8 across the world with a friend). Plus that only was pallet verification. You can still VPN lag hits with corners as ranged Killers, or with dash Killers and there is no verification for those more common lag scenarios.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3782857#Comment_3782857
So when you say 'mathematically speaking' you don't have enough data to arrive at a mathematical conclusion.
And what more data do you need to calculate that a 60% killrate on average means 2.4 survivors killed per match on average? Because the only thing you are proving here is that you also don't know what an average means.
The funny thing for me is that you are, again, trying to fight math with "how to get equal win rates in reality" without realizing first that any other killrate would make it mathematically impossible to achieve equality because of how MMR win conditions work (more than 60% killrate, survivors would always lose more on average, less than that, and killers would lose more on average). Second, that you have precisely pointed out the part where I said:
[…] as in reality, getting to an equal 40/40% winrate is more complicated than simply getting to that killrate
But again, keep trying to fight basic math, it will never get old!
I think you're misreading what the devs have said. They want the killers to have a higher kill rate because they want killers to feel strong and win more
Then explain to me, again, how having a 60% killrate would "keep matches relatively even" in comparison with a 50% killrate, according to the devs own words? Because I think it is pretty clear taking in count the phrasing:
"[…] a 50% kill rate would mean they kill two Survivors per match on average" ⇒ "We try to keep Killers near a 60% kill rate on average to keep matches relatively even"
Ergo, a 60% means more survivors killed per match on average (2.4 to be exact), which means killers now win as much as survivors, which makes "matches relatively even". It's not rocket science, it's basic math.
Either way, you didn't explain why that second part is relevant to the 60% killrate and the math behind it, so I'm going to keep it out of the underline.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3782867#Comment_3782867
So the first part that you underlined is to say 'hey it needs to be close', and the second part is saying 'but it does need to be favored for Killer'.
But that's the thing, if you do the math and see what they are saying, 60% killrate it is not only pretty close, it is in fact the only killrate that allows for an equal winrate mathematically speaking (as again, getting to an equal 40/40% winrate is more complicated than simply having the killrate at 60%, but it can't be achieved without it being 60%).
But hey, if you want to focus on that second part that they probably said because they would never talk about MMR or win conditions directly, I will apply to you the BHVR go-to answer: Whatever makes you happy.
I'm pretty sure someone did the math before, and a 60% killrate means closer to an average 60% winrate, not 50%.
I'll try to walk through the idea conceptually. Sets of 5 matches, 20 Survivors, 12 kills, 8 escapes. 60% killrate.
Cases with Escape/Kill
1.Most 4E 2.Most 3E 3.Most 2E 4.Most 3K 5.Most 3K with Most 3E (or 2E)
(If there are more possible permutations feel free to include them in your reply)
EEEE EEEK EEKK EEEE EEEK
EEEE EEEK EEKK EKKK EEKK
KKKK EEKK EEKK EKKK EKKK
KKKK KKKK EEKK EKKK EKKK
KKKK KKKK KKKK EKKK EKKKKiller/Survivor/Draw %s
60/40/0 40/40/20 20/0/80 80/20/0 60/20/20 - using these for the averages, same result as #s
Killer/Survivor/Draw #s3/2/0 2/2/1 1/0/4 4/1/0 3/1/1
AVG. 52% Killer win, 24% Survivor win, 24% Draw.
No draws is 68% Killer win, 32% Survivor win.
(260/500 or 260/380 for Killer, 120/500 or 120/380 for Surv, 120/500 for Draw)
Heck, even being favorable and splitting Draws 50-50 (rather than 60-40) for both gives 64/36 Killer favored.IME condition 4 or 5 is probably the most common, but mileage may vary. So while theoretically condition 2 fits your premise, all the other cases still exist and are contributing to the math. Plus I'm sure law of large numbers would converge on a 60/40 winrate with draws thrown out, but it still looks dire with Killer winning roughly double as Survivor on average with or without draws.
One flaw is we don't know how Hatch is counted. Do they count it as an escape, or do they discard the result as a draw like they said they treat it as such for MMR? Hypothetically if the 3Ks were all Hatch escapes across the conditions, and they throw out Hatches, that could add an extra 7 results. That could add EKKK (Hatch for an 8th result extra) into EEEK (to maintain ~60% kill rate with 4/7K 58% since the Hatch didn't count), adjusting the stats to 52% KW, 26% SW, 22% Draw, or 67% KW, 33% SW with draws thrown out.
So yeah, overall Killer has double the winrate of Survivor with a quick math check.
(I figured out 5 more missing cases before I posted this: 4E/3E/1E/0E/0E, 4E/2E/2E/0E/0E, 4E/2E/1E/1E/0E, 3E/2E/2E/1E/0E, and 2E/2E/2E/1E/1E for a cumulative total of 50 matches, with 25 Killer wins (50%), 14 Draws (28%), and 11 Survivor wins (22%) or without draws ~69% KW, ~31% SW. That makes the odds even worse for Survivor wins in both draw or no draw scenarios.)
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@VantablackPharaoh91 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3782879#Comment_3782879
I feel like you misunderstood. I'm not saying that one is worse than the other or should be considered the exact same severity, I'm saying that whether or not a Killer slugs me to bleedout and I am the only one they get, OR they slug all four of us to bleedout, it still feels bad when they humptech me. Whether or not the Surv team wins the round, if they abused that locker glitch that happened last year, it still felt bad and it was still abuse.
Therefore, if it's the case that both Killers abused the original finisher Mori to be annoying, and Survivors used the antislug ability to create uncounterable free self pickups to be annoying? That's still abuse of intended mechanics on both sides. Using mechanics solely to annoy or cause the other side grief is griefing. It's in the name. THAT is what I mean by "abuse is abuse". Nobody here was talking about whether or not those things are equally offensive or problematic or whether or not you win doing them, after all plenty of players find Knockout and Flashbang annoying without those being perks that win games or even are problematic at all arguably. What people are saying and what I am arguing is that both concepts needed to go back to the drawing board.
In that PTB, Basekit Unbreakable was abusable. It WAS abused to annoy Killers. That's why we can't have it, it's too easily abusable. Basekit finisher Mori as it was, was abusable. It WAS abused because it encouraged slugging for the Mori. That's why BHVR reworked it to what is coming soon, so Killers are less encouraged to slug for Moris.First off, with a definition so specific that 'using mechanics solely (emphasis mine) to annoy or cause the other side grief is griefing', then nothing can ever be 100% confirmed to be 'abused' without a self-report. Even the bleedouts for Mori attempts were advancing the cause of the Killer winning eventually, despite ranging from ultra annoying to actually impossible (in most of soloq) to deal with. The problem is that many things come at a cost. Heck, blinding at a pallet and teabagging mid chase denies distance, so that helps Killer, and WSWS wastes time spent hooking (or donates a blind save), and helps Survivors. The only time they don't come at a cost are the last Survivor or exit gates. That's why I think a 'damage assessment' is important when saying something was 'abused'.
Part of the problem was that it wasn't uncounterable. Some people just threw their hands in the air and gave up while declaring it to be uncounterable. I was able to counter those 'attempts' while barely any thought put into it. The only maybe, was if RPD was still the singular map (instead of split), with the 3rd floor library, or Badham when basement isn't in main. They fixed RPD, and they can fix Badham by forcing 2 hook spawns when basement isn't there (one in the bedroom, one in the basement stairwell room). So ultimately no abuse exists here when a singular Killer can always counter it.
I guess the most confusing thing to me is I have no clue how 45s self-pickups were annoying or uncounterable. I just hit the spacebar and hooked them like in a normal match. Even Breakdown wouldn't prevent the 2-3 hooks accessible from the corners of each map. Heck, they couldn't even pop the gen in that corner they were attempting it, or it would give Killer a free win by either bleedouts or the server close. It required too coordinated of a 'seal team 6' styled clock-SWF that the match would be over in 3 minutes anyway.
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This is just a test if a reply quote in the edit notifies someone or not.
Edit: It doesn't seem to let you hit "Quote" at the end of someone's post to put in an edit or copy it from the comment to transfer it over.