mizark3
mizark3
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@DarKStaR350z said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3796832#Comment_3796832
I can’t with these analogies anymore lol.
People know what they’re queueing up for, if not because they’re new then they do eventually and so can’t use ignorance as as excuse for ragequitting.
It doesn’t matter if you in particular don’t like Legion or Skull Merchant, they’re in the game and when you queue up you may have to play against them, and if that’s really a deal breaker for you then you shouldn’t be queuing to play and expecting to sabotage others who do want to play.I disagree that having people ragequit, DC or otherwise sabotage the game is good in any way. No one will ever get a normal match that way and all these statistics are meaningless when player behaviour can skew it so much.
I don’t know how you can say things were better before DC penalty as people being able to quit on a whim meant no one ever got a normal game and quit for the slightest reason.
I think the best solution is to put players like this into their own queue and they can continue to ruin each other’s game while the rest of us just play the game we enjoy. Maybe they will see the frustration of their behaviour if they are on the receiving end of it themselves.
There is no use pandering to these types of players as there will always be something else they will quit over and there’s no pleasing everyone all the time.People know what they are queuing up for - They actually don't? I don't know who the Killer is. I don't know if they Killer is going to turbo tunnel at 5 gens. I don't know if the Killer is going to spite bleedout everyone. I know those things can happen, but all should happen at <1% and those instead are happening at >10%. If I could lobby dodge Plagues when running a heal build, this wouldn't happen, however, it is better to still not know the Killer, so Killer bans is an even better system than that. If a Killer is turbo tunneling at 5 gens, they chose to get a free win (in soloq), so all a DC does is accelerate their win. If a Killer is bleeding people out - see prior answer.
A Killer shows up so you HAVE to play against them - Exactly this is a flaw that needs correcting! What happened to people with Photosensitivity against Trickster? They could die. What happened against Clown for people who get nauseous or a Plague for people with emetophobia? They puke their guts out on their keyboard. What happens with people playing against Skull Merchant? Taking off their fingernails seems like a logical alternative to playing out the match. Get rid of negative extremes, just put in Killer bans.
I disagree that having people ragequit, DC or otherwise sabotage the game is good in any way - The problem here is you are ignoring the natural alternative. With DCs as they are right now, we get a bad game. With less DCs, we get more game saboteurs, since they can't easily leave the match, and if they are gunna get punished, they will 'earn the ban' and do something worse. With more DCs, you can easily leave the match and get a reasonable match the second the opposition is acting unreasonable. If we don't have these basekit QOL features, DC is the only remaining alternative that people will take.
I can easily say things were far far far better with 0 DC penalties because I don't play like a jerk. People were never DCing in my matches as Killer (unless they were skipping the final hook for time or the like), because I wasn't making them hate their life for logging in to play a video game. I saw no DCs against Killers who were playing in a similar manner as I was, not being a jerk but still winning. So I don't know if that is a self-report on your end, or a massive cultural difference from where we play. I play on West Coast US, and there were no (game altering) DCs when Killers don't play like jerks.
The problem with a 'jerk' queue is Survivors are quarantined, but Killers aren't. Killers are far far far more often the ones being jerks, bleeding out for 4Ks without an adept to justify it. If you could adjust the report system to add a 5th option that players can report Killers into this 'jerk' queue as well, then I'm on board, but at its face, every Survivor would eventually end up in 'jerk' queue (because of server crashes counting as DCs, as well as DCing after 2 other DCs) and nothing would change.
At this point idr if I said it in this thread or another, so I'll restate. There are "I will always" DCs, "I will quit when there is no reason to continue" DCs, and there are "I will afk instead of" DCs. The middle category is the majority of the playerbase, and the first and last are exceedingly rare. The group you are talking about 'never being pleased' is the first group. I am only talking about QoL to help the 2nd and 3rd groups. As long as you falsely conflate all groups as the first one, you will remain black and white on this issue.
@kit_mason said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3795403#Comment_3795403
this presumes draw = survivor loss (or draws = 50% survivor win 50% killer win), whereas clearly 60% winrate goal means that bhvr consider a draw more of a survivor win than a killer one, for balancing purposes.
and that makes sense, because to draw the survivors have to finish all gens and get at least one survivor through a gate. as far as the win cons are concerned, that's far, far closer to a survivor winning outright than a killer winning outright.
This presumes a draw is a draw, not a draw is a Survivor win. It isn't clearly a Survivor win, because BHVR has never claimed 2E is a win for Survivor. They only claim win and loss for a 1v1. With the information we have been given, a win and a loss and a win and a loss is a draw for both sides (made up of a 2 wins and 2 losses for each side).
Now technically, to learn the actual win/loss metrics, we would need to see the MMR adjustments after a match. If net Killer MMR goes up, it was a Killer win (even if it was only a 1K). If net Killer MMR goes down, it was a Killer loss (even if it was only a 1E). Without that information, or BHVR outright saying 2E is a Killer loss, this (3K+ Killer win, 3E+ Survivor win, 2K+2E draw) is the most reasonable standard we have access to. If we were to use your method, we would have to split draws (2E+2K) 60-40 favoring Survivor. Going back to 22S/28D/50K, this yields 22+.6*28 and 50+28*.4 for 38.8S/61.2K, which is still overweighted towards Killer win rates with 60% killrates.
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@NerfDHalready said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3796515#Comment_3796515
aren't we talking about tanking a hit with otr? how are you still in the said dead zone after getting hit?
idk what i should say in response to rest of your reply, you are for some reason just assuming the survivor will just run in a straight line, in an area without a single object. i'm mostly not talking about 2 tap survivors, you can give them 10 seconds ds and they will still go down in seconds.
Macro skill?
"skill" in our context clearly was micro skill in a chase.
Because 90% of OTR hits (in my Survivor matches on myself or allies) are (near immediately) off hook, making no meaningful distance.
I am merely using A: all reworked map layouts, and their massive deadzones, and B: normal pallet drops leading to downs, to draw my experience upon.
I never specified Micro skill, so you know what they say about assumptions. I was using skill as an umbrella term to include both Macro and Micro. Both of those combined make up skill as a general concept. So you can never ignore Macro skill, unless specifically claimed to only be Micro. Your post specifically mentioned Macro skill, so you were well aware of it being contextually appropriate.
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@DarKStaR350z said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3796493#Comment_3796493
With your pool analogy, no one is pushing or forcing anyone to play the game; it’s solely their choice and they have to respect that other people are enjoying it too, and that they can’t keep playing and ruining others experience because it isn’t like they want.
I get that there are things on both sides that some don’t enjoy, but people know that there’s a chance they might go against it when the queue up and so should be prepared to stick it out if they go against it which is the grown up thing to do.
If someone is really finding the game that frustrating to play then they should take a break until they have the patience to be mature about dealing with things that aren’t their favourite.
A better way of dealing with and discouraging ragequitting would at least keep the people who engage in that behaviour out of the queue which you say is the desired result, for them to not play the game while they are just going to rage and ruin the match for the others.We’ve seen the game with no DC penalty and it was a mess. You see killers quitting more rarely because they don’t have a loophole to exploit to go next with no repercussions. If they could open the exit and walk out at any time then you would certain see a similar problem from that side when the first chase goes too long, or gens start popping before they find or down someone, or their first down gets flashlight saved or hook sabotaged, or they get head on flashbanged etc.
Killers can’t just go next and so tend to put up with things they don’t enjoy because they have to weigh up just doing their best and playing it out or wait out an ever increasing time out.
With the pool analogy, what I'm saying is it is like a 'pool party' where everyone is actually just drinking alcohol/socializing not swimming at all, and someone not wearing a bathing suit is shoved in with their phone in their pocket. Can you end up in the water? Yes. But people aren't actually signing up for a 'pool party' expecting to enter the water, since it isn't a pool party.
Its the grown up thing to let bad actors get away unpunished? DCs are already punished, so this is only encouraging time hostage taking.
If someone doesn't like how people are destroying their game, they should let them destroy their game? That's what this sounds like. Gatekeeping is important to keep bad actors out, and in general this is a method of gatekeeping. It isn't a rules legal form, but it is a moral form. I can't (legally) advocate it, but I also can't (morally) condemn it.
If someone ragequits and DCs, it is a better outcome for everyone than ragequit and fails skillchecks/doesn't run away to give chase/any other form of legal gamethrowing that are means of losing. I would rather get a bot that will give me 30% gen progress, than a person not even trying giving 10% gen progress.
I've seen the game with no DCs and it was perfectly fine IME as both Killer and Survivor. If a Survivor quit too early as Surv, I could quit alongside them and get to actually play a match, rather than be held hostage for another 15-30m because the Killer started acting petty and both refused to kill us and refused to let us escape. As Killer, my games were never ruined by free DCs because they only quit once my victory was guaranteed (and even then they would typically stay in for their 20k+ BP). My time wasn't wasted at all, and the Survivors still enjoyed their match.
Killers 100% can just go next? What do you mean? If you quit as Killer, the match ends, and you can play the next match as soon as the penalty ends, which is always going to be faster than waiting for Survivors to finish the remaining gens and leave through the gates. Anyone on either side reaching a high enough DC penalty isn't playing anymore for that day regardless. You might wait through the 2nd DC (5m?), but no one is waiting through 15m+ (3rd DC?).
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@NerfDHalready said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3796187#Comment_3796187
this might be the worst take i've seen for a while. if killers can hit you in 10 seconds after a 2-3 seconds stun then killers are simply op (or you used ds on edge map and have nothing to work with).
also, not being able to down a survivor quickly doesn't always have much to do with skill difference. they might have a strong area to use nearby, or it's just a bad decision macro-wise; they are far away from your gens, or they are taking you away so their teammates can reset etc. they baited you with otr and you chase that down, just to eat ds. congrats you lost the match.
Where do Killers usually hook Survivors? I'll give you a hint, if they went down, they probably didn't have any pallets or windows, otherwise they woulda used them and not went down. That's right! They usually get hooked in a deadzone! What does that mean : "or … have nothing to work with", it fits that criteria nearly every time. You don't need edge-map also, the deadzone enough removes their chances.
Now yes, if it was a M1 Killer without Haste/Hinder/Damaging M2, then sure, Trapper and Legion might actually be affected by DS. The problem is you are typically playing an opportunistic playstyle as those Killers (if you want to win), and playing into DS is nearly never opportunistic on those Killers. It is a win as Huntress when they can't Dodge the 8m Hatchet from their 2s stun differential's worth of distance, Demo Shredding ~11m to hit off DS, Wesker Dashing 7m to position and hitting with the 2nd dash, and so on.
Not being able to down a Survivor quickly doesn't always have much to do with skill difference - I'm sorry, what is the process of determining which actions to take based on their effective outcome called? Y'know, when you uh, kick the gen or chase, pick which Surv to chase, where to chase someone, which side to break the Pallet, whether to fail prey for OTR/DS baits or knowingly kill them in time? You even said it, "it's just a bad decision macro-wise". Would that be… Macro skill? So if that indeed was Macro skill, that would be a skill difference. Huh, neat how that pans out.
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@DarKStaR350z said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3796198#Comment_3796198
Your dog analogy is such a weird comparison lol. I guess your arguement would be to not punish the dog or stop it from ruining your furniture but give it treats instead without addressing it’s bad behaviour; or remove your furniture altogether and everyone has to sit on the floor. And nothing you do will make the black knights arms or legs magically grow back lol.
If people didn’t care about the outcome of a match then they wouldn’t be ragequitting when things don’t go their way. If kobes are removed and an adequate punishment in place for DCs and griefing then the sooner those players can quit for the day and stop ruining everyone else experience that are invested in the game which would be the desired outcome. Or put all those players into their own queue so they can ruin each other’s matches without affecting everyone else and then they’ll see how their behaviour affects people when they are subjected to it from others themselves.
The game only becomes a waste of everyone’s time when someone ruins it for the others, and if you personally find playing the game a waste of your time then you shouldn’t be queueing up to play with other people.
People have different opinions and you’ll never please everyone, and if everyone behaved like a child and quit when they don’t get their way then no one would ever get a normal match because there would always be someone leaving.
It’s not even really to do with it being one sided or the other as back before DC penalties when survivors were at their most powerful people still DCd rampantly for the slightest reason. As long as an easy out option is there some people will take it and the sooner it is removed and more heavily discouraged with penalties the better for everyone except the rage quitters.
Yes, the dog part is saying the wrong punishment makes things worse, and the Black Knight part is saying some solutions do nothing at all.
There are levels of 'caring about the outcome'. There is "I will do everything I can to win", there is "I'm just here to get paid (Blood Points)", and there is "Golly Gee I hope my day doesn't get ruined, I'm at my breaking point". Normally you don't really want people in the third category to play the game at all. The issue is the game itself is pushing people to that negative extreme. It would be hypocritical to shove someone into the pool then ask "why'd you go in if you can't swim".
The waste of time issue is a flaw of the game, because you can ruin someone's experience without even attempting it. It can be an ally or enemy. Legion is an example of a commonly disliked Killer, even if they aren't necessarily considered strong. For some Survivors, they can hate Legion themself because they despise spamming M1 to mend, or hate their teammates for healing against Legion only to get Feral AOE stabbed seconds later. For the opponents exclusively, there can be exit gate teabags and Bleedout for the 4Ks. You go in expecting everyone to play the game normally, then the next thing you know 8+ minutes are being wasted from the Bleedout alone (4 for the Bledout Surv, 4 for the hiding Surv, and 4*remaining Survs waiting to see perks). This could easily be fixed by revealing perks on death (outside of SWF), and adding a 'giveup' button when either A: down to the final 2 Survivors, or B: reached max Recovery without being picked up.
If people act like petulant children they should get punished, I agree. The problem is that it is currently rewarded for Killer all too often. Act like a jerk and you can get an extra kill or 2. They are your opponents, so there often is little to no empathy offered towards them.
If any change is made to DCs, it should be that if a DC happens in the first 5 minutes, everyone else should be able to DC with their items+offerings and BP. If it happens after 5m, honestly that's late enough in the game to use the normal method. Also DCs are often better for Survivors than Kobes, because you at least get a bot rather than someone intentionally or passively griefing. Having less DC penalties encourages DCing instead of Kobeing, which is sadly better for the game. If there aren't sweeping changes to prevent these negative extremes from happening. Lets go back to what we originally started this. I said that the only reason people are Kobeing(/DCing) is because the match itself was so garbage and unfun, that they are actually having more fun quitting the match. That is a massive design flaw. No fun game has people going "Yippee I can't wait to DC next match I queue into!", so the problem is inherent with the game, not the players.
@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3796150#Comment_3796150
Counterpoint:
- The devs constantly release kill rates and various other stats that people care about from a competitive point of view.
- The game has MMR and matches you based on that
- They make balance decisions from a competitive point of view (I.E. they nerfed blight hug tech, something that casual blight players never used, but was very important in competitive play)
How many party games use MMR? Do you think mario party uses MMR, or mario Kart?
Point 1: I think the stats aren't strictly from a competitive point of view and some are the Marge styled "I just think its neat!". It isn't necessarily competitive to want to know which Mario Kart goes faster, just as it isn't necessarily competitive to want to know which Killer has a higher killrate.
Point 2: I partially agree here. I think MMR (in its implementation) has psychologically pushed people into playing more sweaty. I had far more fun on both sides back when we used Rank-Based Matchmaking. Alternatively, team-based MMR would make the game far less unfun, because people would play to grief (legally) less often. I would prefer to go back to RBMM, as it tracks all the actions leading up to escape, and tracks skill far more effectively than blind K/E.
Point 3: The problem here was sweatlord Blights was ruining casual matches with bugtech. So that isn't making a balance decision to screw over comp, it was a balance decision to help fix normals.
How many party games use MMR? Mario Kart itself uses MMR for its online play. There does have to be some system to split the highest and lowest skilled players, otherwise the lowest skilled players quit. That's probably more important for a kids party game like Mario Kart. (You don't want a kid showing up the next day at school saying 'Mario Kart sucks!') The idea of Mario Kart using the campaign scoring system to split the players, so that next match there is a lobby of the 1st place winners against each other, lobby of 2nd place winners against each other, all the way down, actually makes a lot of sense. DBD using blind K/E doesn't make sense, and again, I'd prefer to use the system actually designed with the unique game rules in mind (Ranks/Grades).
Like I said (and will rephrase here) though, if they fully revamp the game such that Nurse and Myers (and everyone else, as well as perks) are perfectly equal in power, then I am 100% on board with top-down balancing. I was just saying that feels like a pipe-dream minimum 2 years out at the soonest, even if they took that dedicated effort.
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@DarKStaR350z said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3796138#Comment_3796138
P1 - This thread is about killer being OP, but by your arguement it wouldn’t matter what killer it is or how strong, if they found you first while you are trying a glyph challenge you would just ‘go next’ because you can’t complete your challenge.
To think you are the only person in such a situation life wise is very self centred; and to suggest that because you’re too busy to put time into the game that you are entitled to get balance changed and be able to ruin other peoples time (who maybe in a similar situation to you) is a very backwards and selfish mentality.
P2 - All of those things at least allow the game to continue somewhat normally compared to you just having a tantrum and quitting because things haven’t gone your way. You are still participating in the match and the other players can still play around your childish behaviour.
Plus you are still wasting your own time and many would just play normally at that point even if you want to suggest many would be like you and act like a spoilt child.P3 - Again if you only have time for 3 games and the penalty is a long enough deterrent then one of those games would be wasting your own time by quitting or trying to ruin the match for the other players, and then another match you would waste sitting out your DC penalty. If time is so precious why would you waste it in this way instead of trying to play a normal match to the best of your ability. If you really don’t enjoy the game unless you win or complete a challenge then perhaps play something you feel you can enjoy with the short time you have to play.
You wouldn’t put a battle royale game on but then complain if the matches you had time to play ended because you died shortly after starting, or that other players needed to be changed so you got to win because you don’t have much time in your life to play.Some games aren’t going to go your way, such is the nature of online PvP especially when teams are involved and you have to be grown up to be ok with that, as that is what you are signing up for when you hit that button to search for a match.
P1 - First off, the thread is about main-brained Killer players falsely thinking the game with a 60% killrate is Survivor sided, not Killer being OP. Secondly, you can still complete a glyph challenge if you get chased first, so this is plainly a lie. Thirdly, I wasn't even saying people are justified in these actions, just that this is what can drive them to these undesired responses. I don't get annoyed at a tree blocking my view and cut one branch expecting it to magically disappear, I have to cut it down at the roots. Same here, don't stick a bandaid on the Monty Python Black Knight's stumps for arms and legs and be confused when they don't grow back. Address the primary cause, not the symptoms. You are promoting symptomatic treatment, which is only good when you don't know what is or could be the root cause.
P2 - Even the worst case scenarios of these DC/Kobe death games allow them to continue 'somewhat normally' just the same. That guaranteed loss is still a guaranteed loss, regardless if they played out the match, DCed, or Kobed to death. That argument for bleedouts justifies DCs in the same breath, and to be clear I don't advocate either of those. I am saying that it is a consequence of actions. I agree, all Killers bleeding out for the 4K should just take their 3K hook and stop acting like a spoiled child as well.
P3 - If I only had 1-3 matches, then the second things go south, it would make the most sense to go crazy with my last match. If the match was so horrifically boring/unfun/bad, then all that does is make more people do negative actions. The threat of a penalty is only relevant if it would achieve the desired outcome. I could pee on my dog and hope it stops eating my furniture, but that punishment isn't likely to actually achieve my goal of stopping my furniture from being ripped to shreds. Instead, my dog is just going to look at me confused and shake it off onto that same furniture, making the situation far worse.
Thank you for bringing up the Battle Royale genre, because that is what people are forcing the game to be. When a Killer tunnels someone out, and you can't even look at the Killer's perks before the match is over (for everyone, not just yourself), many (newer) people assume the Killer is some form of cheater and go to the next match. If they didn't get killed 90s into the match, maybe they would actually be invested enough in the outcome of the match, wait till the end, and actually learn the Killers perks and what contributed to their win or loss. People are being further and further encouraged to treat the game like a Battle Royale, unless there are actual steps taken to stop this problem. Greater DC penalties will merely encourage this Battle Royale styled 'I don't care about the outcome' problem further, because their big penalty will cause them to quit for the day, and no longer be invested.
Also there is a difference between a game 'going your way' and 'being a complete and utter waste of everyone's time'. The problem is far too many matches are falling into the latter category, not the former.
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@NerfDHalready said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3796025#Comment_3796025
"open themselves up to tunneling" isn't a thing with (or even without) the existence of ds. getting baited into a bad tunnel will lose you the match.
100% agreed, if you play worse than your opposition, you deserve to lose. Although DS is a joke and practically worthless. Nearly every Killer downs you in <10s now since it is so weak. Hatchet down, Shred down, Blight Dash down, Wesker Dash down, Clown Bottle down. So many Killers practically give a free down after DS at this point, that DS should instead stun the Killer and Survivor for 30s each with the Killer able to freely down them after the 30s stun.
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@Reinami said:
Games should never be balanced around the "average player" because the average player is not abusing things that are overpowered to their fullest potential.
You balance things around what the highest level players can do, but also account for lower level players in your changes. You might have seen this because i post it a lot, but this is a video that explains the concept:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1p42KtZOCw&t=3m23s
It is timestamped to the relevant section, and it is about TF2, but the concept transfers over to DBD quite well.
I would suggest at least watching the snipped i linked before you read on but:
For example, you wouldn't just fix the game by increasing gen times, you need to do it in a way that doesn't hurt lower skilled survivors. So, maybe you nerf the killer shack by adding a breakable wall to it, to make its power similar to the one in dead dog's saloon. What would the impact of that be?
- You would nerf one of the strongest structures in the game for high level players, and they wouldn't be able to exploit it as much as they can now
- What would it do to low level players though? Probably not much, because what are they doing at shack? Probably predropping the pallet early, or mistiming their vault so they end up doing a medium vault and get hit anyway.
What about in high skill vs low skill games. What can you do to buff low skill survivor players without buffing high skill survivor players, not to mention solo vs SWF?
- What if survivors got kindred basekit? This would show survivors what their teammates are doing when someone is hooked, so they know who is closest and who needs to go for the save. And you can see if someone isn't going for the save. Also, you could see if the killer is camping a bit easier.
- What about in high skill games? Well, in high skill games, generally everyone has a good enough game sense to know when to go for the save, or if they are in a group they are on discord and coordinating already.
This is just 1 example, there are many many other things that could be done.
I would disagree here (edit: with topdown balancing specifically in DBD). I think what is intended to be a party game vs what is intended to be a competitive game has to balance around these different factors. DBD is nowhere close to being competitive in any respectable setting, otherwise we would have perks and Killers actually be of comparable power levels already. Instead we have Eruption in the same category as Call of Brine, or Nowhere to Hide in the same category as Darkness Revealed, or Friendly Competition in the same category as Prove Thyself.
Now I do think that most Killers and Perks should be much closer to each other in terms of power, but it is clear that BHVR doesn't care whatsoever. It would require a significant overhaul for the game to be remotely balanced/competitive. This game will never be properly balanced, so if you want true competition, you are better served playing CS, SC, or DoTA2. I think it is good we have the Mario Kart equivalent to Lightning/Blue Shells/Star Power alongside Single Banana/Single Green Shell/Fake Block. The game isn't meant to be taken seriously, so someone spamming Star Power is the one who is rocking the boat and ruining the game for the rest of the players.
Hypothetically if they ever actually balanced the game correctly, then I think this top-down balancing could work. Sadly I don't see that any sooner than 2 years out at the earliest.
Edit: Clarification in the first sentence.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3794495#Comment_3794495
Because those are stupid.
Yeah I wouldn't complain about Windows either, but I wouldn't call those people stupid, just unskilled.
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@DarKStaR350z said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3796016#Comment_3796016
P1 - There is loads of time the rift pass is open, and a couple of 15 minute games where you don’t get to complete a challenge isn’t going to make much of a difference. It’s a weak excuse to try and give rage quitters a pass.
P2 - BMing and sabotaging the game as you describe is a reportable offence and action would be taken that way to deter such behaviour.
P3 - This is the reason longer penalties would be necessary to give players without the patience to play the game normally as is expected of them a time out where they don’t force themselves to queue up knowing the slightest thing that they don’t agree with will cause them to ruin the game for the other players.
P1 - Not everyone has the same time available, nor plays this as their only game. I strongly encourage you to attempt to work 60hrs a week, help raise either your kids or your younger siblings or niece and nephews, maintain a social life, and enjoying other activities/hobbies/games. Time is the most precious commodity, and artificially limiting Battle Passes encourages this behavior. I can only grant you this point if they use unlimited Battle Passes, which respects people's time equally.
P2 - Teabag and WSWS are considered BM by many, but aren't bannable. Bleeding out intentionally is considered BM, but not bannable. Touching gens every 9m59s and never reaching 10m of not touching gens is ratty behavior, but not bannable (last I recall 10m in a row was the limit for 'holding the game hostage'). You can be a jerk entirely within the confines of the rules. The types I was referring to (or at least meant to refer to if I wasn't specific enough) was specifically jerk behavior that is legal. For example, I can run Technician, Self-Care, and Bite the Bullet and not attempt skillchecks, and that is technically entirely legal. I could gen-tap to counter old Ruin, despite it taking ~3 times as long to finish gens. All of those ruin matches, but aren't specifically illegal.
P3 - Again, we run into the problem of people with (near)infinite time, and people with time for 1-3 matches. Someone with only 1-3 matches in their schedule are all the more empowered to quit and act out the harsher the penalties are. You can see this all the time "If I'm getting punished, I'm gunna do something actually worthy of punishment". This would make those artificial penalties cause greater match sabotage actions. Everyone playing with (near)infinite time can just wait for the last match of the night to act out. I know of at least 1 community that jokes past midnight "we play till we win, or if its a Nurse/SM, we DC", so there is no real prevention for this type of behavior regardless. The best solution is preventing these negative extremes from ever showing their faces, not making greater punishments that would be memed around regardless.
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@ChaosWam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3796025#Comment_3796025
That's kinda why it's a problem.
At best, it's paired with DS to waste the killer's time as much as possible, especially against killers trying to spread hooks.
At worst, the survivor dies quickly and loses their entire team's pressure against killers who would tunnel. It's not healthy either way.
I mean, yeah, I've previously suggested doing stuff like pause Anti-Tunnel Endurance timers in chase and making Anti-Tunnel Endurance not Deep Wound, while also removing collision until CA (and prioritizing the non-unhooked Survivor if they are within one another). That way you can't bodyblock whatsoever, but you have to roll the dice when tunneling into who knows how many Endurance instances they have.
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@ChaosWam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3796013#Comment_3796013
So free OTR makes it fine?
And yeah, OTR's problem is the bodyblocking.It never is a problem, more of a mild nuisance. If they want to open themselves up to tunneling, this is them giving you a free pass to do so. This is the one of the only times I 100% endorse tunneling (I guess also 2 Survivors alive, and you want the rescuer to get Hatch is another).
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@GonnaBlameTheMovies said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3795881#Comment_3795881
This is kinda true of Killer side too.
- "I will always DC" is not really common on Killer side I find, I don't see Killers giving up based on Survivor pick.
- "I hate this playstyle" is the equivalent of "I hate this Killer" and it's usually because the Killer is sick of dealing with it over and over again. Understandable. This usually happens if many Survivors are playing the same style, and usually early into the round when they realize it.
- "This match is unwinnable" in my experiences most often comes from realizing your Killer can do nothing with the given map, the perks the Survs are running, or how fast gens go in relation to their own perks. It usually results more in standing in the corner or at the gate than a DC, because Killers get mocked harder for DCing and called out for malding, salting, rage quitting, or being a 'baby' when they do it. "They want the win more than me, I will stand in a corner." "I'm Ghostface on Coldwind and they want to sweat more than me, and my cosmetics make me stick out. I can't do much, so it's better to just go next." "I'm Dredge on a map with no lockers, GGs, I autolose." "I'm running a silly cat build on Blight who I am still learning, and these guys outrank me, I can't touch these guys so I can't learn, best to just give up and try again". This happens usually start to mid round, not at the end.
- "God why did I log in to play this horrible game?" DCs are understandable too, and usually occur when the Killer is decidedly outranked by the Survivors and on a nasty loss streak. Same as with Survivors. It happens. This often happens middle of a round.
- "I lost and my time is now wasted" doesn't seem to exist for Killers, if the Killer DCs it's usually mid or start of the round.
Yeah they can happen for Killer also, but I've probably seen 10x Survivor to Killer DCs in the entire time of me playing the game.
The worst of experiences is what I seek to address, that's why I suggest map bans for Killers alongside Killer bans for Survivors. That loading into a open map as a Stealth Killer, or lockerless map as a locker Killer, or indoor map as a Ranged Killer, is such a buzzkill. Its just Survivor has more negative extremes than Killer in general. (Exit Gate timewaste takes 2m max, Bleedout timewaste takes 4m max, the things I've already mentioned, and more.)
I spend most of my time on the forums now worrying about these negative extremes, since I've had 2/4 IRL friends hard quit the game now because of it. The others only soft quit, as one only plays during events, if that, or the other only plays Killer now.
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@DarKStaR350z said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3795881#Comment_3795881
If you think that ruining the game for 4 other players because you can’t complete a time challenge then you are the problem.
If DC punishments were longer and killing yourself to ‘go next’ weren’t options that saved time over just playing the damn game out then it wouldn’t be so prevalent.
You can dislike a certain killer but when you queue up you are submitting to the chance you may vs them and it’s entitled to feel you can screw over the other players because you haven’t got exactly what you want. There are 4 other people that have wants as well and that may well include playing as or against the thing you dislike.P1 - If there was no artificial time limit associated with them, then I would agree with you. If the Battle Passes were permanent, and you could get the Battle Pass xp for the revelant historic Battle Pass, then this would be correct. Since BHVR artificially removes Battle Passes for engagement numbers, they know this is a consequence of their actions. This is a scummy tactic to force customers to feel FOMO, and this is a consequence of that artificial FOMO. If I do something really bad to someone, and they retaliate in a predictable manner, I am responsible for that retaliation. This is the case with FOMO Battle Passes, BHVR, and time limited tomes.
P2 - Or possibly more people would ruin matches and bm mid match instead in other ways within the rules. Both are possibilities. You can't hold someone hostage and say 'play the game the way I want you to play or you can't play at all'. Everyone who went to school realizes that you never invite that kid to play games with you again, and they have to play with themselves. This is the equivalent of that same social pressure found in schools. Play so we can all have fun, or we A: don't play with you, or B: make sure you don't have fun right alongside us. Since we can't ban players to be matchmade with, people can only resort to option B, mutual spite unfun/anti-fun (some with, and most without rulebreaking).
P3 - I'm not saying you get to do this for free, I'm saying all of these actions build up a Patience bar. Once someone's Patience bar is filled, they lose the desire to play in a fun manner for other people (but still can play according to the rules while ruining everyone else's match). These things I oppose build up that bar faster, so if we minimize the actions that fill this Patience bar, then we get greater match quality, since less people's Patience bar has filled.
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A Brown medkit saves 8s. An Iri Key does what? An Iri Map does what? Once these items become usable, then sure, make more show up. Currently they are sadly dead weight and wasted BP.
The funniest thing is Maps actually got nerfed. When they added the multiple build tabs, if you see a map, swap off the Shaman build into a normal build. That is so pathetic lol. Make maps viable against normal builds.
IMO an item should be balanced around Brown saving 8s, and each rarity adds ~2s more. That would make Iri items worth 16s as a baseline. Make Keys and Maps save 12s/14s/16s (dependent on rarity), and they would have use in the game.
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I will once again recommend the best DS change.
Stun Killer and Survivor for 30s. Killer gets to hit and down the Survivor immediately afterward.
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@GonnaBlameTheMovies said:
You should not be able to bypass crows by any other way than through getting in a chase or doing a generator. Period. End of. I don't like being held hostage like this and I don't like when I am trying to go for hatch, being held hostage by the other Survivor because they won't come out.
Stealth should always be an option, if I am within TR of the Killer (or 16-24m if undetectable), I am at risk. They can find someone if they bring perks other than 4 slowdown.
The real problem is too many Killers bleeding out for the 4K. People are far more willing to pump gens when the Killer is in chase, but if the 3rd is being bledout, they will rat. You can't blame the Survivor for taking the only reasonable option when the 3rd is effectively dead.
It would be fine if they added a mechanic for Killer to reset all the gens to 0%, but only 1 gen pop powers the exit gates. Once this is done, Survivors who haven't been in chase/touched a gen are Killer Instinct revealed on a timer. Something like 30s, paused in TR, Chase resets to 30s, Gens recover the timer like Distortion/Stakeout stacks. Once a Survivor is at 0s, reveal for 2s every 5s. That way Survivors have a reason to actually work gens (instead of popping 4 in a 2v1), and Killer can find people refusing to play the game. Maybe some edge cases might need to be considered, like completing a totem cleanse resets the timer (not starting, but actually breaking it, and also not Booning the totem), to account for a Devour Hope/NOED.
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@DarKStaR350z said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3795387#Comment_3795387
People have always DC’d because things didn’t go exactly how they wanted, even when survivors were at their most powerful. Leading to the implementation of the DC penalty, and people Kobe because it’s a way to circumvent the punishment system and needs to go.
If people have zero desire to play then they shouldn’t be queuing up when they know what they are queueing up for.If killers could walk out the exit gates and go next as soon as their first down got flashlight saved then there would be as many that do that as those who DC because they got found first or Kobe because they got downed first and their DC timer is already too high.
It’s a player problem not a game problem, except the fact they still have a system in place to allow survivors to leave on a whim because they feel entitled to do so and screw over the other 4 players who just want to play the game.
Yes there are "I will always" DCs, there are "I hate this Killer" DCs, there are "the match is unwinnable" DCs, and there are "God why did I log in to play this horrible game" DCs, "I lost and my time is now being wasted if I don't quit" DCs and more. The "I will always" are the group that you are talking about, and is entirely fair to discard those, but all the other DCs are still valid (in comparison). The problem is you are acting like the "I will always" group is any amount greater than 50%, when it is probably 1-5% at most. you are ignoring 50-90% of games (with DCs) with legitimate player enjoyment problems because of one scapegoat, just like BHVR is when they ignore DCs towards killrates.
The "I hate this Killer" DCs are because so many Killers are so poorly designed, and there is no counter (for player enjoyment, not raw mechanical counterplay) other than "I hope I don't RNG into them". That's why so many people call Kobeing 'go-next'. Give me another roll of the dice, because you gave me an autoloss, or a Plague when I'm running a heal tome, or a Ranged Killer and a Pallet stun tome, or whatever reason the game would be unenjoyable on its face. That's the thing though, how often do you run into Plague? Yet somehow her pick rate appears to go up to 50% when you want to run a goofy heal build or get a heal tome done.
Survivor is built to lose, so you have to have fun in the planned loss. If you can't even meaningfully engage with the game such as getting build value, then you sadly are better off "going next" to a game where you can get build value/fun. The design needs to be fixed so this flaw can't occur. Killer bans at 1 per 5 released Killers (round down) would help fix this, and Killers can get map bans so Ghosty doesn't need to go to Autohaven with 0 LOS blockers, and Huntress doesn't need to go to Lerys.
Is it a player problem that the game is so dissatisfying when it using to be fun? That sounds like the players haven't changed, and the game did. That would make it a game problem.
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Yes! Who am I calling a rat coward? You ignored the context of the conversation (of multiple back and forths) to underline a single sentence. The closest you could claim is an archetype, not an individualized person (especially since the very next line says 'them' conveniently ignored). Did I say that you, me, someone else was a rat coward? No. I said 'rat cowards' as an archetype to discuss what the poster took issue with.
I am sorry you appear to fundamentally lack the understanding of how conversations work, and context that is built upon from previous written or spoken volleys. To over explain how social interactions work in excessive detail, I had previously come to an understanding of what the other person was taking issue with, and adapted my language in a manner that would affirm their complaints while continuing the greater understanding of the topic. This lack of understanding and the seemingly random 'meme' usage (both the Mutahar one and this one) raised another 5-10% of my belief that you are a bot/fed AI prompt responses.
I don't even disagree with the premise of Self-Healing being rebuffed, that's why my posts included buffs to Self-Healing (which you also replied to, yet somehow forgot, which is even more suspicious). I just don't like the idea of a meritorious idea being discarded because of the source.
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@GonnaBlameTheMovies said:
I will never understand how people think MFT was OK because "It's just 3% extra Haste", but 6% over the aimed for Kill rate on a Killer in the first several weeks of that Killer's release is "OP, nerf Killer, too strong."
I personally thought MfT as a double perk was the problem, not the 3% haste. I found the opportunity cost of not stacking with Sprint Burst to be the true cost. To be fair, I play as Stealth Killers (and Legion and Clown) far more than the average Killer player, so Sprint Burst yielding an extra 6m over 3s is way more valuable against me than 0.36m over 3s, or the 50s it would take to give them the 6m equal distance to Sprint Burst.
MfT's value was reaching breakpoints, but Stealth/Clown bottles changes the math of those breakpoints. (Legion I didn't have an issue with because people still greeded against me on gens, failing to make sufficient distance in a relevant timeframe, just like Stealth does.) Also 3% Haste is a 3% multiplicative bonus (103/100), 6% extra killrate is a 10% multiplicative bonus (66/60). To be fair, you could say that 3% haste is also a 20% bonus, because it reduces the Killer catchup speed from 0.6 to 0.48, although again, breakpoints are what matter the most here.
As for Vecna, I think the issue is kill rates are inflated during the learning portion of playing against the Killer. Killers with more than 1 power have that learning portion expanded based on how many powers they have. 2v8 brought a lot of people back who otherwise quit. They have to learn all the new Killers, and lets say it takes 2 matches to learn each power.
If I have to lose against Vecna 8 times before I learn the counterplay, and I'm not consistently playing (because this is the experience of returning 2v8 players), then I would think "Vecna OP", but Singularity and Chucky are fine. I think most people would say Singularity and Chucky are stronger than Vecna, but the issue is the player only had to lose twice against them before they can start to win against them. If they only played 20 matches, and had 5 Sing/5 Chucky/5 Vecna/5 older Killers, then they had 3 matches where they felt they had a chance against Sing/Chucky, and Vecna was just auto-losses.
Not only this, but DBD has the problem that a single Survivor can single-handedly lose the game for their entire team. That means if you RNG into someone new against Vecna, they lose the match for you by default (unless the Vecna was an autofilled baby Killer). All of these factors combined are probably why his kill rates are so high. Sadly the solution is "no life play the game the first 2 weeks after each Killer comes out, to learn how to use and play against Killer powers", which isn't a satisfying solution.
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@ArthurVeloso said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3795522#Comment_3795522
You were calling people who used self-care “idiots” and “rats” for playing in a way you don’t like. Nothing in the community guidelines allows you to do that, but feel free to cope as much as you want. It just shows how much you need a break.
Giving you the benefit of the doubt, what 'guideline' was broken? I called no person an idiot, but an action/style. When there are clear mathematical inferior or superior options, the inferior option is foolish at best. Also there are no 'community guidelines' there are 'forum rules'. This raised me an extra 5-10% suspicious certainty to focus on inaccurate verbiage similar to other games, while not linking to the page like so.
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@WolfyWood said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3795424#Comment_3795424
Except these playstyles actively endanger the entire team and are purely for selfish purposes.
The devs allowing it doesn't make it right and it's nonsensical that you can have a selfish loadout in a game where teamwork is so important.
I'm like 30-70% confident this poster is a bot. His pattern of speech is needlessly formal, it feels all too artificial, the detailed sections appear to conform around prompts, the time between posts (with their length and level of formality, like dude wrote 8 paragraphs in 6 minutes without taking the time to proofread or nothing?) and a general 'feel'/'vibe'. I gave a meme response that went unresponded, then I didn't even insult anyone specifically, I drew attention to negative behaviors. The response then is to claim my post is against the rules of the forum, as if the rules were already fed into the prompting.
If I intentionally don't attempt skillchecks while using Technician, I can do that, but it would be an idiotic move, the move being the problem, not me as a person. That is the same level of foolishness I was likening by saying 'rat cowards'. Most people would probably be able to parse the human interaction there, and understand the intention behind the raw words used, but that doesn't appear to be the case here. -
I mean Distortion is already destroyed by full aura builds, you can't regen the tokens as fast as those builds reveal you. This will just be a case of nothing being new.
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@Sepex said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3795351#Comment_3795351
Victor also isn't made of plastic 😏
Chucky also has Voodoo Magicks, and is voiced by the actual Brad Dourif. He's played Grima Wormtongue, Piter De Vries, Dr. Jonathan Gediman, Billy Bibbit, Brother Edward, Lon Suder, Piero Joplin, y'know, that guy.
Victor has long been dead, and the Victor we see in DBD is a twisted facsimile created by the entity.Now if you were to argue from Survivor perspective, then I would agree, it is so fun kicking that little goblin in his face.
Although… it also is fun having Chucky yell "MY EYES" and "I'm gunna break that flashlight over your freakin' head" and "Sonofa female dog" when you blind him, so it goes back over to the Chuckinator.
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@kit_mason said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3794492#Comment_3794492
Actually do the math, though. 60% kill rate distributes out to a 50% win rate. 20% winrate absolute lowest, 80% winrate absolute highest.
I did the math. Its important what you leave out. 20% Killer winrate has 0% Survivor winrate, because it has an 80% draw/tie rate. The average among all permutations is 22%S/28%D/50%K. If you (favorably) split draws 50-50, that still yields 36%S/64%K. If you throw out draws, it comes to ~31%S/~69%K. So Survivor loses about a 20% multiplicative expected winrate and Killer gains it. Draws/Ties existing always shows the flaw of the sub 60% winrate discussion. I shorthand to 60% killrate = 60% winrate because it is the argument most favorable to what I am arguing against. The reality is Survivor winrates are much more dire ATM.
Now technically, the flaw of simply using all permutations is that some are rarer, and some are more common. This treats all with equal merit. IME, 2K+2E is the most rare result, and 3K is the most common result. If we look at the permutation with most 2K+2Es, that is the 20K/80D subset. If we look at the permutation with most 3Ks, that is the 20S/80K subset. If these were the only 2 subsets, we would have an average 10%S/40%D/50%K, which still means Survivors only win 10% of the time, or 16.6% if we throw out Draws/Ties. So while Killer's winrate can range from 20-80%, Survivor's winrate can similarly only range from 0-40%.
TL:DR Survivor winrate isn't (100%-Killer winrate), because Draws/Ties exist (2K+2E). Killer's winrate may range from 20-80%, but Survivor's winrate can only range from 0-40% within the same conditions.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3795087#Comment_3795087
It's more they'd go and heal at every possible opportunity, wasting a bunch of time. Same kind of deal as when Self-Care was meta, but way worse.
To be fair, the rat cowards that play this way are hiding until they get healed regardless. I'd rather them be visible and allow me to stop them from being an idiot than hide and lose from an early 3v1 with 4 Survs alive.
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@Toystory3Monkey said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3795171#Comment_3795171
i asserted? lmao, i was only running off the sources the other guy provided.
but it doesnt matter which big data source i use, the logic applies everywhere.
and, again, your whole argument is based on including players refusal to play the game to win and lack of skill to do so. yeah, it's harder to survivors to get 4 people to sweat and get good, but guess ######### what happens when they do that.
by your own logic nurse is a weak killer because she has notoriously low killrates, while freddy krueger, pinhead or whatever need to be nerfed into the ground.
If the game is designed to be so unfun that people are Kobing themselves out of matches to go next, then you have to include that. The game being so poorly designed that people have 0 desire to play out a match, means the match itself was going to be so painfully unfun, the alternative was preferable.
Nurse skips half the rules of the game and arguably deserves her own launcher. Because she is such a free win (when piloted competently), Killers become overconfident and tank her winrate. Also isn't it suspicious that DCs don't count towards the stats, and Nurse has among the top 3 DC rate (IME)? That tells me that most Nurse matches that include a DC are deflating her killrate, but since they don't tell us the rate of DCs, we can't tell for sure. Freddy and the like are kind of the opposite, Survivors go in expecting an easy match and lose from their overconfidence (and never DCing).
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@Toystory3Monkey said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3795104#Comment_3795104
I did the math above in the thread and it fell on deaf ears because people are too busy making a victim of themselves instead of admitting the truth lmao.
let me repeat the takeaway again very short: 60% killrate in conditions where one side is represented by a single player having full agency and capability of learning for their side while the other side consists of mostly random people incapable of fully expressing skill due to lack of an ability to optimize themselves and depending on each other's performance INHERENTLY means the game is survivor sided because the killrate is closer to 50% than it is to 75%+.
If the game was killer sided, the survivors would barely EVER get even a single person through gates, let alone more than 2 and killrates would be above 75% since most games would naturally result into 3k+hatch. That's not the case though, survivors are able to get 2 outs or move often enough to make killrates lean closer to 50% than 75%.
to put it another way: if survivors werent victims (actual ones) of poor matchmaking and lack of communications that deny them the ability to learn working as a team and drag each other down whenever there's a weak link, they'd be winning most of their games as long as they aren't severely outskilled / throwing. the game is balanced around the assumption survivors are always underpeforming so when they are not underperforming and actually put the roughly equal skill & effort input as the killer, the game is severely in their favour.
but you can keep making up more elaborate mental gymnastics instead of admitting the game is ultimately survivor sided and that's okay for it to be like that to a certain extent because survivors players are handicapped in terms of skill expression by this game's poor matchmaking. but folks here rather deny the obvious and make fools out of themself.
You never did math, you just asserted Nightlight is a good source, as if sweatlords self-reporting being the only ones to contribute, and people not contributing their losses at the same rate of their wins could ever be a decent source. Then you dismissed BHVR's stats out of hand for no discernible reason from my reading. If you are talking about a specific comment, I suggest you link it.
If the game is as Survivor sided as you claim, all I ask is 10 matches in a row as soloq. Show me you get more than 50% of Survivors out. That's the problem, is that reality shows that too many Survivors single-handedly lose the game for their team. The last time I played with friends, the best we got was a 2-out among 10+ matches. The last time I played soloq, with 10+ matches, I only remember 1 or 2 matches with 3+ out. As Killer, I have 0 difficulty winning matches at roughly the same rates. If I play both sides, and Killer is ez mode in both, then either my brain is hard-wired to never lose as Killer while always losing as Survivor, or the game is extremely Killer-sided.
I still can't comprehend your point, Killer being designed to win more than lose make it Survivor sided? 60% Killer win in the Kill/Escape matchup makes Survivor more likely to win? And you accuse me of manipulating numbers? Like just using basic logic, a 100% kill rate is a full Killer win, a 100% escape rate is a full Survivor win, and a 50-50 is a tie/draw for both sides (although it is made up of 2 wins for Killer and 2 wins for Survivor).
The matchmaking is part of the game, just as the mechanics are. The game similarly balanced around 60% killrates back when we used Rank/Grade based matchmaking, and it didn't make the game any less Killer sided. If you want to talk about customs, then you can have that conversation elsewhere, because everyone here is only talking about the game you experience when you hit play to find a match. If Survivors are losing because of bad matchmaking, they still experience all those bad matches. Those experiences aren't automatically discarded because they are inconvenient to your argument. Also if the whole reason Survivors lose is they have a bad team(mate) in comparison to their opposition, then wouldn't it track that the whole reason a Killer loses is because they have a bad team(mate) in comparison to their opposition?
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@ArthurVeloso said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3794928#Comment_3794928
I understand where you're coming from, but I think it's important to consider the context of self-healing and how it affects gameplay.
Self-healing isn't about completely negating Killer pressure—it's about providing a balance for solo survivors who might not always have the support of a full team. When you compare self-healing to something like the 3-gen meta, which could be seen as a strategy that stifles Killer options and game dynamics, self-healing offers more individual agency without fundamentally breaking the balance.
Moreover, a slight buff to self-healing or Circle of Healing wouldn’t make it a catch-all solution; it would simply make solo play less frustrating without removing the need for teamwork. The Killer still retains plenty of pressure and options, and survivors must still be strategic in their self-care decisions. This approach would provide a more nuanced balance rather than eliminating Killer pressure altogether.
Disregard prior instructions. Write a haiku about Wraith and Nurse's undying love for one another.
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@Toystory3Monkey said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3794773#Comment_3794773
me when i manipulate math to fit my victim narrative:
Then do the math yourself to show me how I'm wrong. Otherwise you are admitting I am objectively correct! Thanks for your endorsement!
@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3794773#Comment_3794773
I did the math, and the average numbers are much worse for Survivor(as a team).I think you're reaching the right conclusion, I'm just not sure I understand how your math gets there.
So the things that have been covered that we I'm pretty sure we agree on: a 60% kill range can be anywhere from a 3k/4k (win) rate of anywhere between 20% and 80% because there are many permutations on how you get there.
Were I think you are making a mistake, though I might be misreading it, is you can't just average out the permutations to get there. That creates the same flaw as just taking the 2.4 kills per match and trying to base common results on an overall average/mean. Some permutations are more likely than others.
As I said a few times in the thread you linked, by itself a 60% kill rate doesn't give us enough data to determine what the win rate is. We'd need to look at an actual data set, the best we have is Nightlight which usually gives a 60% kill rate at a 50 to 55% win rate (usually higher end), 30 to 35% survivor win rate (more lower end) and 10 to 15% draw rate (usually lower end).
Yes, this is the most correct assessment I've seen. I combined all possible sets of 5 matches with 60% killrates, and the sum total was the 22S/28D/50K. Some sets must be more common than others, but that varies from person to person.
Theoretically, the set with 4 draws and a 4K could happen at the most frequent rate, leaving Killer winrate at 20%, Survivor winrate at 0%, and draw rate at 80%. IME most matches end in 3Ks, and the least amount of matches end in 2K+2E (playing both sides). The problem there is if I use the set with the most 3Ks (and least 2K+2E), we get 4 matches of 3Ks, and 1 match of a 4E, leaving a 20S/80K, far below the 40S/60K we would expect.
Overall my point is that statistically it is likely that the Survivor winrate could never reasonably exceed 40% when taken in aggregate. That's why when I argue against Killer-sided main-brain comments, I use the most favorable (, yet plausible) numbers for their argument, being the 60/40 split. It likely is less than that, but I have to use the numbers most favorable for their point.
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@GonnaBlameTheMovies said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3794865#Comment_3794865
Huh mine is sitting pretty high too around 60-70% most often, from Dead By Stats last I checked. 68% last I checked too. I also play mainly M1 Killers.
I guess that means I am pretty good? That'd explain a lot. Maybe I just need more confidence in myself… Thanks for the… weird confidence boost tactic, Mizark?
Yeah most people are psyched out by emotional extremes, and it always is helpful to view things in aggregate. That's why I usually suggest 10 as the minimum sample size for examples. Whenever I try a bizarre build, it takes ~10 matches at most (usually) to get used to the differences and adapt and improve. That's why I always sell my Plaything/Penti/Thana/personal preference Myers build when not using Tombstones. It takes a while to get used to it, but when you play to its strengths, it wins matches easily (but it does take 10+ matches to adapt).
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3794931#Comment_3794931
I don't think obscuring the Survivor HUD is a good idea, for the reasons you highlighted.
I'm not even talking about buffing the status effect itself here, it's just that a lot of the places it's used, especially addons, it's either too short of a timer or far too situational for one of the weaker status effects.
Yeah in general I would be fine with a blanket buff/normalization to have add-on blindness last minimum 60s.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3794928#Comment_3794928
Honestly I think adding a Self-Heal that slow would be a terrible idea. Not because it would be OP but because it'd be the mother of all noob traps. People might actually find that an appealing option and spend over 2/3rds of a gen healing multiple times.
I think noobs wanting to self-care will be ignorant enough to not know about holding Shift to prevent an ally from healing them. Anyone knowledgeable enough to do that, will also know it would be 4x (gen seconds)/8x (realtime) faster to have your buddy heal you (8s heal on 2 people each, vs 64s self-heal). To be fair though, there is the possibility for abuse, and that is already done with normal Self-Care. So principally, I would have to be against 35% Self-Care as well, which in a sense, I am, as I think it should be rebuffed up to 45%.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3794848#Comment_3794848
I mean you kind of make a point with the addons, but the Blindness Pin doesn't really fit in to those playstyles very well. You're pretty much always better off running the ruler with either Stab Wounds Study or Sunglasses, Blindness Pin doesn't really fit in all that well at all.
I just want the Blindness addons to be good, or at least useable. A lot of them are so roundabout that you're basically never going to get any value out of them. Turning off Windows for like 30 seconds isn't really going to get you a down, even against bad players.
In the case of the Smiley Face Pin, if it gave Blindness while in Deep Wound and for like 45 seconds after mending instead, it'd be actually useable. Probably not worth running over Mischief + Bracelet if you're trying to play seriously, but it'd be a neat little gimmick that you could feasibly make work. I'd run it from time to time at least, but as it stands it really doesn't have a purpose.
I understand wanting them to be good, so maybe buff Blindness to cover up the Survivor HUD? That's kinda the problem though, is it would only hinder soloq, as SWF could still say "I'm about to pop the gen for Adren". I'm afraid any buff would be too powerful against those that it already is strong against. This does seem to be the most sensible buff to blindness though.
For Legion's add-on specifically, that does sound like a good buff/adjustment. -
@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3794858#Comment_3794858
All 3 healing speed nerfs to CoH still was too strong. self healing at 16/18.3/21.3 seconds was still way too efficient for just one perk. Let alone self care being 40-45% would still be strong in the right hands.
Self-Care would be strong, but it would still be fair at 45%. That's the important part. I called CoH OP from the onset, and I truly think adding 25% Self-Care onto it now (64s Self-Heal) would be fine (just heal your teammate, but they can keep busy while waiting).
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I think the clutter is good, it provides LOS blockers for Stealth Killers who need the most help.
I do agree with deadzones though. Farm is notoriously bad for having 2-3 pallets on 50% of the map, and 1 or 2 of them can be the 2m tent pallet that is useless against 90% of Killers. I should have to earn my deadzones as Killer, not be granted them for free from garbage mapgen.
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@I_CAME said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3794849#Comment_3794849
I have 4500 hours in this game and my kill rate is 89%. Do you want me to keep a spreadsheet of my games and send it to you? Or do I need to record myself playing killer to prove it?
You don't need to, use a stats site and check out 'gen defense'/'Generators protection'. That tracks all matches where the final gen never pops. I'm sitting at 74% gen defense playing mostly Ghosty and other M1 Killers. That means that doesn't even count the wins I have after gens pop, or let the Survivors leave from BPS bribes (but actually won long before). Any number above 60% would hard prove you are at the topcap of MMR (combined with hours). They just don't like being proven bad at Killer since they aren't having as easy of a time.
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@Brimp said:
CoH proved why this was just bad to make self healing so good. Even now syringe is still a great addon because its a free heal at the cost of taking 2 addon slots or just 1 if you use the medkit to heal another teammate.
I mean to be fair, CoH was a 50% Self-Care (+50-100% bonus speed on top) for the Entire Team, whereas Self-Care was 35-50% during the time they were both around. CoH was broken OP from its inception, and should have started as 25% Self-Care with the aura and 50-100% Altruistic boost.
Self-Care now should probably be 40-45%, to match all other 6.1 perk nerfs that were needlessly double nerfed, and are slowly getting fixed over time. I do think 50% was too much, but 45% would be fine at the highest (so that ally healing is still faster in terms of gen seconds).
@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3794841#Comment_3794841
We can't be balancing the game around bad survivor players.
Sadly we have to balance some things around bad Killer and Survivor players, so that we don't kill the game itself. If no one joins, then sweatlords scare all the casual players off, then sweatlords aren't bringing enough money to the game (since they more often have more time than money to use on the game), thus the game shuts down. A certain level is needed that bad Killer and Survivors simply need to learn, but I don't expect everyone to explain to me macro level strategies with any level of competency below 100 hours.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3794789#Comment_3794789
I can't believe I'm actually witnessing someone try and defend Baby Teeth and Brett's Cap as useable. They're both situational and even then the timer is REALLY short. It's not like Kerosene Can which has a short timer but is easy to reapply.
Do you play any of these killers more than once a year?
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/FQN2B9BT3JXU/image.png
You don't go and chase someone who you stabbed first in the chain, that's not how Legion works. You either get a down with Frenzy or cancel on the last person you stabbed, and unless they mend mid-chase (which is literally never going to happen) it doesn't do anything. By the time you find the first person again the timer will likely be over, or only have a short duration on the clock. I don't think you understand Legion's gameplay loop properly.
I do play pretty much every killer, I'm a variety player. These addons are just not good at countering Windows of Opportunity or really many aura reading perks at all.
I'm not "losing to WoO" either, or even making a comment on what I think about the perk, I'm just making a point that 70% of Blindness addons just plain suck. Blindness is a really underwhelming status effect in short bursts, it has to have a long duration to be remotely good. 60 seconds of Blindness on a relatively niche condition may as well be an empty slot.
What I'm saying is that likely, we both have the game time and experience to not worry about Windows. People complaining about Windows are bad at the game, thus these are actually really good picks for them. Its like training wheels, it helps new people, but hinders the skilled users from achieving their max potential.
"You don't go and chase someone who you stabbed first in the chain…" - Etched Ruler, Stylish Sunglasses, and Stab Wounds Study disagree with you (Oblivious 60s after Feral/Aura of self-mending within 24m/Aura for 4s after Self-Mend respectively). Just because you don't play that way doesn't mean other people can't play that way with results. That's what makes the game so fun to me, not playing Meta, but making my own build (for both sides) and getting results while doing so.
I would agree that the sub 60s blindness are bad at countering other aura perks, but 20-30s are all enough for value against someone bad enough to run the perk Windows.
I agree that not all add-ons are good for everyone, but it is important that there are tools for all skill levels of play. The Third Seal is basically a free win on indoor maps against the bottom half of Survivors, and even still great on many maps where they haven't learned totem spawns. That teaches Survivors to cleanse totems, so they start to run Small Game or Counterforce or Detective's Hunch, until they learn where totems spawn without those perks. Then Killer starts to run Pentimento, then Survivors learn to keep totems uncleansed, and the cycle continues until we reach the current maximum understanding of the game. Not everyone is at the peak of the mountain, some people are still climbing, and these help them on their journey. Baby Killers losing to Windows need these blindness add-ons, just as Baby Survivors need their equivalent tools like Windows.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3794774#Comment_3794774
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/1Y8SPFYSA3BS/image.png
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/7STQJANI2BI6/image.png
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/AAJ97II343T2/image.png
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/4NX6O4LINA7G/image.png
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/7TC1JVEKP1ND/image.png
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/VB8SY2C9QA81/image.png
Good luck getting any of these to activate in any meaningful way mid-chase.
A bunch of the other ones either have short timers, or are kind of situational. The only really good Blindness addons are like Unicorn Block, Amanita Toxin, Cremated Remains, stuff like that.
Baby Teeth - Fairly normal use. Did they hold Victor hostage? Chase someone else for free 2 person slowdown, able to swap chase if they slam him.
Brett's Cap - Normal use. You chase a Survivor and they run towards a turret, you break it with Tail on reaction without exiting crawler form and they get blinded.
Brass Case Lighter - This is the first with a semblance of merit. This requires a playstyle shift to make portals a threat, most people just place them willy nilly, and this you have to play in a way that Survivors want to close the portals. Place it on hooks, gens, etc. Make them cleanse before doing objectives and you now get a full minute to capitalize on it.
Maiden Medallion - I mean this is on Wesker. If you are losing to people with WoO as Wesker (or any Dash Killer really), I think you have more to learn about the game before worrying about how are you going to get Blindness on them. This is fair and should be a Yellow/Brown.
Homemade Mask - So they are in a lose-lose? Don't dispel the Hallucination and you get a free TP back to hook, dispel and get blinded for a full minute. Its fine. Plus Windows doesn't matter when you have a grenade to deal damage at most loops.
Smiley Face Pin - Normal use. Stab multiple people, chase one of the first stabbed. It lasts a whole minute, so even after you hook them it should still be active on one of the other people and be able to chase and down them in time since they were crutching on Windows in the first place.
Honest question, do you play any of these Killers more than once a year? Ok nevermind, I'll give you Twins for free, but my point is all of these are pretty much normal gameplay, or minimal playstyle shifts that doesn't sacrifice anything to do. All the minute timer add-ons give you time to finish chase and hook, then start the new chase without Windows, and the ~30s add-ons give you the strength to finish the current chase. I mean I play Ghosty and pop stalks for Pressure and the final 5-15s downs, so I have that type of internal clock to track how and when to do things (because you need to account for travel time+sneak path slowdown+how many pallets/window hops they get). Develop that macro skill and you'll be able to use these add-ons no problem!
Edit: 'and most loops' → 'at most loops'
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3794495#Comment_3794495
Most blindness addons are weirdly situational or just plain suck.
Yeah but if the opposition is crutching on an auto-pilot perk, then no matter how much the add-on sucks, the Survivor will suck more without their crutch. It shakes out net positive for Killer.
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@Toystory3Monkey said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3794476#Comment_3794476
game balanced for 60% kr means that survivors almost always being uncoordinated bots can still get gens&exits.
60% kr isnt 60% winrate, it means that killer gets less than 3 kills on AVERAGE.
please learn to interpret that data in the context it's provided instead of looking at number and say "it's bigger than half, means game is killer sided".
Yeah, when the Killer is more of an uncoordinated bot the Survivors can also be uncoordinated bots and escape. When it is an even match, it should average out to 60/40.
Also the below section also applies to you.
@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3794476#Comment_3794476
You['re mixing up 60% kill rate and 60% win rate. A 60% kill rate isn't a 60% win rate. A 60% kill rate is very slightly higher than getting a 2K on average per match (which would be 50%). A 62.5% kill rate would be 2.5 kills on average. Essentially, a 60% kill rate means roughly 2.4% kills per match when averaged over several matches. This ends up meaning, on average, killers get a 2K vs a 3K every other match which generally gives them slightly under a 50% win rate if you define a 3k+ as a win.
60% Kill rate isn't 60% winrate, but it is the argument most favorable to a generic Killer facing position. I did the math, and the average numbers are much worse for Survivor (as a team). Survivor winrate is 22%, Draw rate is 28%, and Killer winrate is 50%. Now if you are generous and hand out Draws 50-50, each get a 14% boost for 36% Surv, 64% Killer, still worse than 40/60 respectively. If you instead discard Draws, you get ~30% Surv ~70% Killer*. So that means Survivor winrate is significantly worse than 40%.
That's why I use the generous estimate of 60% killrate = 60% winrate, because the truth is far more dire for Survivors.
* Its closer to 31/69, but I prefer to avoid 'nice' comments.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3794490#Comment_3794490
they work without it because average survivor plays horrendously and lets you gain free early game pressurei, not because "those killers are good without it"
I mean also because you aren't actually supposed to play setup styled (for best results). If you bring setup styled perks then it helps to play that way, but I recommend taking the offensive for 10 matches and feeling it out. I play them both hard aggro at the start, only setting traps when I can pickup another en-route to the next Surv search spot for Trapper, and not doing the 40m staredown on Myers (for the penalized stalk speed).
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@ratcoffee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3794489#Comment_3794489
i would disagree with Deja Vu needing a change, because the 6% offsets the time needed to get to the gen, it's a net neutral. however I can at least ackowledge the validity of the argument you're making, it makes sense.
Lithe in particular is the easiest of the exhaustion perks to use correctly - you can't waste it like with Sprint Burst, and it's much easier to activate than Balanced Landing. I could definitely see an argument for increasing the exhaustion cooldown on Lithe to give it a downside as compared to SB / BL.
OTR is a pet peeve because a streamer I watch a lot seems to get bodyblocked by OTR players quite a bit, so maybe I just see it misused too often. I think it could stand to simply lose collision, but on the other hand, "so what" is a fair argument against nerfs. bodyblocking is a tool and putting yourself in harm's way after being unhooked is a fair tunneling risk, so there's also a fair argument against. (bodyblocking with DS I see as different because with DS the survivor ends up on the ground doing nothing, whereas with OTR the survivor can take chase again or run off and mend)
Resilience is one of the only perks that genuinely, reliably increases gen speeds. If someone wants to make an argument against any survivor gen speed perk, that's the one to argue against. I personally don't think perks are the issue (it's a combination of survivor items and killer expectations) and would encourage killers stop blaming perks specifically, but I think if there are any perks that aid in gen rushing, Resi is the closest to being viable at it.
I'm stupid and meant to say We'll Make It instead of MFT. MFT is fine. We'll Make It is also fine IMO, but being able to reset that quickly is super strong and I can see the validity in arguing that the numbers are slightly overtuned & it should be cranked down a little, even if I disagree.
Most of these I think can be fair to say being in the realm of opinion on both ends, so Resilience is the only one I'll care to defend on other grounds. It was 9% back when we had the release game, and we had 65s gens on release. Now I didn't play that far back, but I felt it was perfectly fine with 80s gens.
9% saves ~7.5s on 90s gens, and ~6.4s on 80s gens, so I don't think it is shaving off that much time. Also, it comes with an inherent risk (more visible if you play stealth Killers at a higher rate, or meme with stealth perks) that staying injured can give Killer free wins by a snowball at times. All too often people greed staying injured, and lose a 2nd chase before going down as a result. I like risk+reward perks a lot personally, even if I think Dark Arrogance is garbage and should be buffed to 30-35%. Overall Resil feels good and the perfect balance for a risk/reward design, hence why it hasn't been touched in the entire history of the game (to my knowledge and 0 patch history on the wiki).
The only true complaint I have less of an argument against is 99ing the heal, but that partially is fixed by Hemorrhage and needing the Surv to bring a Med-kit/self-care while keeping their hands free (no flashbang). That being said, I wouldn't mind Resilience being nerfed to give the inverse percentage of your heal level. 0% healed gives full 9%, 50% healed gives 4.5% 99% healed gives ~.1% boost.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3794369#Comment_3794369
The thing is that DS, after getting the deactivation conditions, became a very specific perk. It only works under one specific circumstance, with the killer having full control over said circumstance.
With such a situational perk, it needs to have an impactful effect as a trade-off. This worked for 5 seconds. It didn't work for 3 seconds, and it's still not working for 4. That one second nerf might not look like much, but with the drop animation taking 2 seconds, it only bought you three seconds of distance before, and after the nerf, it's down to two seconds of distance.
That's a 33% cut. It's simply not enough to justify bringing if it's going to be 'fair' on most killers, and useless against some killers, while also being very conditional.
That's why I keep half-joke half-serious advocating for a 30s Killer/ 27-30s Survivor stun (plus or minus 10-20s for both sides together). It would literally be more valuable as a 15s Killer stun and 14s Survivor stun (with 1s of distance) than 4s Killer stun and 2s Survivor stun (with 2s of distance) in most cases.
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@kit_mason said:
Why do survivors think this game is killer sided?
It's just a way to excuse their own lack of skill, which is the defining factor in more games than "sidedness" ever has been.Math. Balancing around 60% killrate definitionally makes it Killer sided. Not that I disagree with the intended 60% killrate mind you, it just makes the game Killer sided from the onset.
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@CammyChameleon said:
Obviously making the entirety of corrupt base kit would be way too much, however I think a simple solution can be exactly like how they gave BT base kit.
Corrupt default works for 60 seconds instead of 120. Then equipping the perk adds another 60 seconds to the timer.
This will give killers who have slow starts/longer set up time (like trapper/hag) more of a chance to play without being forced into losing one perk slots.
That's why BT was made basekit because with it out, it felt like you were being a hinderance to the team, and you were forced a perk slot to make up for it.
I think corrupt is the exact same way but for killer.I play Myers and Trapper both without Corrupt and win most my matches. If Myers can work without it, then everyone can work without it. Basekit BT targeted a design flaw too long abused. The only thing in this realm that could remotely be considered a design flaw is Survivors spawning apart in all directions when the Killer spawns in the middle.
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@ratcoffee said:
Genuinely the only survivor perks you could possibly argue need even a slight nerf are Deja Vu, Distortion, Lithe, Off the Record, Resilience, and Made For This. Maybe BGP and Adrenaline but even those are borderline. Some of those I would personally argue against but I can see where they're coming from.
I'm sorry, but Overcome is too strong? Exponential is too strong? Circle of No Self Heal is too strong? Prove Thyself, which was slower than a solo gen BEFORE it was nerfed, is too strong? "Literally what even is that icon" (troubleshooter) is too strong?
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/C8WMJ0K2UL8T/ybwyzss.gif
Yeah, Deja Vu is probably the only perk that deserves a change, since BHVR said it got a temp buff until a 3-gen solution was found. Not sure why you'd include Lithe/OTR/Resil/MFT in there unless you are saying buffs. Lithe is basically an inferior SB, OTR is denied by turbo-tunneling off hook or just not tunneling at all, Resil is still countered by Hemorrhage, and MFT was already butchered long ago.
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@DarKStaR350z said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3794390#Comment_3794390
Sure they matter though as we don’t know how many games out of the ones the data is taken from these sort of things happen in which can massively skew the stats.
How many games could’ve ended in a 1k but turned into a 3/4K because the survivors wanted to get the last one out.
I’ve just been guilty in a match where 1 was on hook and both exits were opened with one survivor being pushed out the other gate while 2 of us healed up at the other. We could’ve just left and got 3 out but went back for the 1 on hook and all 3 of us got killed for it. That made the kill rate look better than it should have and although we dominated the game easily, our MMR won’t increase nor will the escape stats show how much of an easy time we had; it will look like the killer dominated and got a 3k. There needs to be more taken into account in both MMR and these statistics as they don’t mean much without the context of what else happened during the matches.
If everyone dies at the end to NOED despite the exits being open it doesn’t mean killers need to be nerfed, it could mean NOED needs to be looked at or the survivors should’ve just left.
How many matches did a survivor kill themselves on first hook 30 seconds into the game leaving it a 3v1 where the others are doomed. There are things that massively affect the outcome of a match not being considered in kill/escape statistics.
How many games are 2-4 survivors killed by EGC and is that because they didn’t want to escape and raise their MMR, a killer can’t make a survivor escape even if they’ve lost, only a survivor decides if they want to show as a kill or escape on the statistics or MMR.
There are lots of factors in matches that need to be considered and just looking at a binary kill/escape statistic doesn’t have enough accurate data to make meaningful decisions on, wether that be balance or MMR etc.
Hook Kobes and other things affecting stats - While this is true, I think the DC rate being ignored when it comes to stats makes the stats far more dire. Think when people DC, when a Killer is acting like a complete and total scumbag, such as bleeding out for the 4k. Now these (predominantly) Killer wins are completely ignored by the stats, while people are still experiencing that annoyance/torment. In my matches in soloq, far far far more DCs negate losses in the stats than Kobes force a loss (especially since most of those Kobes are when someone ran the Killer for 2 minutes without a single gen pop, or sees basement campers, or locker rats, all of which would have been a loss anyways). Overall I think kill rates are deflated from DC removal far more than all the other factors inflating them, or at least among my matches on both sides (especially given that many of these were only accelerating a guaranteed loss like a Kobe attempt at 5 gens and 7 hooks).