mizark3
mizark3
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@caipt said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3797677#Comment_3797677
The huntress example is just cherry picking. Obviously, the killer with basekit STBFL is a tunneling demon, I could just as easily say that the survivor gets even more distance because they were up against freddy. Even then unless shes running double haft you can make it reasonably far. At least enough to have a loop or wall to hide behind, and thats excluding if you just dodge the second hatchet. Not to say huntress isnt easily one of the best tunnelers in the game if shes near the unhook, she absolutely is, but she is also absolutely an edge case.s
The fact is that most killers have a sizeable slow/stun/cooldown after using their power or attacking the survivor, so much so that hitting the basekit BT would be a hinderance. That is the strength of OTR, that in the majority of situations the killer is forced to give you that health state. The survivor doesn't need to be silent or invisible to run in any given direction for 10s- it's not rocket science. That is to say that its pointless where the survivor went down, because in most cases they can and will find their way out of whatever part of the map their on. Or if its good, they'll stay there and loop. Bonus points for DS.I mean any Dash Killer fulfills the same conditions as Huntress. How many of those do we have now? Heck, even stuff like Vecna simply using Fly to negate the post-hit speedboost is enough.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
vaulting speed for killer like 6 years ago was like 30% slower. they already did buff vaulting speed.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3800942#Comment_3800942
i don't see them improving vaulting speed because it would discourage survivors from using windows. the break-point for survivors gaining no distance from window vaults is 50%. Myer's has this if he uses bamboozle, T3 and dark arrogance. the break-point to zone a window vault where if survivor is within <5 meters of window vault is 25%.
this is that classic mindgame where a killer pretends to left, then goes right, then vaults the window. you see this a lot on long-wall jungle gyms and shack window when killer is in shack. with bamboozle, you can sometimes get hits and a lot of killer use bamboozle specific for that mindgame. without the perk, the survivor still has enough time to make to the pallet.
Exactly, D→A→Spacebar wins nearly every window with Bamboozle alone.
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As a frequent Bamboozle user, I'm not fully sure this is a good basekit change. A lot of windows actually have the breakpoint reached by the boost here (Fire Up 2-3 stacks, as well as Bamboozle, if you mindgame it properly). If you want to improve the speed of the game entirely, and increase all player vaults speeds by 15% then I'd be fine with that, but only Killer 15% is too much atm. Its the breakpoints that make this the case, if the breakpoints were different, then maybe.
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@HexHuntressThighs said:
You would realize slugging isn’t a problem at all if you try using We’re Gonna Live Forever or Buckle Up. 20 straight matches yesterday with no value from either.
It’s not a problem at all.
I mean same with tunneling and DS, and slugging and UB, and running heal perks then getting nothing but Plague matches afterwards. Negativity bias is the main driver, because of how negative the extreme is.
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@GeneralSkien said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3800298#Comment_3800298
she doesn’t lose speed using the radar?
The wiki says it slows her down to 4.4? Maybe they didn't keep up with previous patches, and I can't visually tell the difference very effectively. Oh nevermind, they left the original power information on the same page and I control-f'ed 4.4 from memory, my mistake.
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@Predated said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3799784#Comment_3799784
Ruin was legit an issue on killers like Nurse and Blight tho.
WoO is fine, kinda. Like, its a type of perk that is crucial for soloq, while barely giving any actual benefit for SWF.
You can already guess where windows are, the main issue is pallets that are dropped or gone. If I am in a swf, I can tell my teammates which pallets have been used, which havent been broken etc. WoO is that for survivors. Kindred used to also have a 35% pickrate, because it gave info on what other teammates were doing. Now with the HUD you can pretty much guess if someone is going for a rescue or not. Its not perfect, but its something.
The main issue with WoO is that a survivor can plan ahead where the killer cant, but to be fair, Killers have Zanshin's Tactics which does the exact same thing as WoO. But killers dont run that, even though in the current meta, killers can easily swap out 1 of the 4 gen regression/slowdown perks with Zanshin for basically 0 cost.I think when a perk is only an issue for a handful of Killers, that shows the handful of Killers are the true problem, not the perk. (See Awakened Awareness being nerfed from Nurse alone.)
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@GeneralSkien said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3800297#Comment_3800297
you see I wanna make it clear that the main issue is that these are holdover nerfs, unlike with most killers we have a confirmation that skull merchant is going to get reworked, unfortunately that’s one to two years from now, make no mistake this is a gutting. They want to render skull merchant to an unplayable state so people will stop complaining and focus on a rework (that’s likely gonna fail AGAIN)
The only people who will continue to play skull merchant are likely people who will try to get a rise, or make others miserable, this change fails at doing anything healthyI mean SM is in such a bad state right now, I don't remember a single match where I was pleasantly surprised the SM wasn't a jerk or a Survivor DCed or any reason to think that match wasn't a complete and total waste of my time. That basically means a SM pick is near 100% sabotaging any Survivor chance of enjoyment, so the SM pick was intentional BM. Even other Killers that many people dislike can't reach that level of hatred. This is a medical procedure for the health of the game, so I can't blame them for doing it. I can blame them for ever thinking an area denial Killer in the heights of 6.1 gen kick perks was a good idea.
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@CautionaryMary said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3800305#Comment_3800305
I do agree with you that you could implement a catch-up mechanic, especially if a survivor was tunneled out to put pressure on gens.
Some of the other changes would have to be tested, such as the surrender to bleed out option to prevent people from simply running into the killer and forcing a surrender to find an ez way to avoid a DC penalty. I don't think I would agree with a basekit NOED at the end game though. I do sympathize with people who go into end game with no kills, but at the same time I don't think adding basekit perks into a game to make the game easier for another side because they were unable to get a kill.
I can use myself as an example — I struggle with Deathslinger and that's a skill issue on my part. I don't like how slow his ADS is and it's something that people need to master to get better with him. With your proposed change, I could find a survivor out of position, basekit NOED them, hook them far away from the exit gates, and facecamp them. There is no counterplay to this at all, which is the issue. If someone attempts to trade, I can NOED them as they're touching her. If she somehow gets off the hook, I can use my harpoon gun to catch people, doesn't even have to be the survivor in question — and basekit NOED them doing the same thing. Just because I've had a game where I struggled with kills as Deathslinger, doesn't mean that I want kills handed to me and it wouldn't help me improve at getting better with the killer if I can pull off unsavory tactics like I've mentioned. The survivors have no counterplay to getting this survivor off of hook, someone comes to the rescue I can basekit NOED the person saving, while still preventing the trade as she's so far away from the exit gates causing my 0k to become multiple kills at that rate. Additionally, I could even apply more pressure by actively choosing to slug the survivors in this situation as well.
A killer ban would be harder to implement — in my case, let's say I ban Wesker from my games. Do I get other killers that I can also ban? Do I get three options? Even if it was implemented, my choices could affect my MMR rating and affect queue times, we need to take this in consideration as well.
I think people are already Kobing on hook so this wouldn't add a new avenue for game sabotage that doesn't already exist. Also, it would likely be locked behind conditions like 1m+ on the floor, or max recovery, or at least 1 Surv is also dead. I think 1m+ on the floor (total) would be enough that it wouldn't be abused at a greater rate than current Kobes are.
(Link provided for clarity, any readers don't res the dead thread there)
My full basekit NOED idea was a lesser NOED, such that you only get the Exposed, and you only get Exposed as long as no one is dead/dying. Hooks count as dying, so they aren't exposed once you get your down or your hook. Then if the Killer facecamps and the person gets unhooked, the exposed returns, so the onus is on the Survivors to either cleanse, or buy time with a trade for a cleanse. 'Lesser' was the word carrying the heavy lifting here that I didn't fully explain, so I can understand the rest of the theoretical/taking issue with the idea.
Killer bans I start with 1 slot per 5 Killers released (round down), so at 39 Killers you get 7, and at 40 you get 8. I also suggest 'previous Killer' for any number of the slots (with the default option being 1 previous Killer, and the rest are blank). For SWF, the leader determines everyone's ban list, and for solo it would function as normal.
As far as MMR being impacted, I think we all would agree that if everyone brought a BNP every match, their MMR would be impacted, but they currently can still do so. Same with a Syringe. Same with a Killer player being carried by a strong Killer choice, and not their skill itself. In a sense, we already have this Survivor facing specific Killer MMR problem, because we don't have Survivor MMR against each Killer. For example I might suck against Plague, but am a juice-lord against Oni or Chucky. Alternatively I could be garbage against Wraith specifically, but have no problems against all the better Killers than him. This would provide more accurate MMR for people using consistent ban lists.
As far as queue times, as I've said, less than half of people use optional features, so they would be minimally affected. That being said, it would still impact them. To counteract this I'd suggest a 50% and 25% BP bonus for the 5 and 10 least banned Killers respectively. This would also use the previous Killer ban list, so that Killer players can know which were played too often also. If one Killer is permabanned, that shows an obvious design flaw that the Killer is so garbage to play against, that no one wants to deal with them. These are the matches where we currently get (even normal, not only babyragequit) people DCing on first sight of the Killer. Since that was a dead match from the start, it prevents a dead match from ever occurring. I don't know about you, but waiting 5 minutes just to have a teammate DC because it is a Skull Merchant means I now have to wait another 5 minutes for a 'real' match, but I also have to wait for her to actually kill us too, adding who knows how much longer to my 'true queue' time.
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@Mandy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3800087#Comment_3800087
for full bleedouts that's less than 1%
Thanks for the clarity. Do you happen to know the rates of 2m+ as well. I seem to always get the bleedout or 3m59s bleedout before hook as my last match of the night when playing Surv (because I'm certainly not playing another after that). I understand that negativity bias makes me think it is likely higher than it actually is, but I'm curious what the 2m+ category is at regardless.
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@CautionaryMary said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3796023#Comment_3796023
I don't think killer bans is healthy for the game though. Trust me, I have my fair share of not enjoying going against killers (I personally do not like Wesker due to how buggy his hits are) but if given the option I would not toggle to not vs him. Even though I don't particularly like him, I still find him fun in some ways when I pull off nice loops against him as he does in fact have counterplay. Not to mention, adding killer bans will make queue times go up higher and then you'll have people who (rightfully so) complain that they can't find a match because of the killer that they're playing. Many people hate Twins for example, I couldn't imagine what a load time for them would be if we allowed killer bans.
The reason you see more survivor DCs over killer DCs is due to the fact that yes, survivors do find the gameplay dynamic not as fun as they used to. You also have more people who play survivor - it's four survivors in one game versus killer. I've had my fair share of having a killer DC for a play that I've made whether it's a a loop that went on too long or popping a gen in the face of the killer. Killers do in fact DC but when there's a lot of pressure in the beginning of the game, you oftentimes see survivors DC out of frustration and wanting to "go next".
Optional features have sub-50% usage rates. When people were offered 50k BP a match (for 10 matches) for the wiggle skillchecks, they said it was somewhere from 40-50% usage IIRC. So even if we were worried about say, Nurses with a theoretical 100% ban rate, there are still 50% of the playerbase not even using the feature, so they'll still get lobbies. Also like you said, you dislike Wesker and still wouldn't ban him.
As far as the DC rates, negative extremes seems to be the primary driver. I keep advocating for things to get rid of negative extremes, like this Killer ban idea, map ban idea for Killers (so no Autohaven on Ghosty or indoor map on Huntress), surrender feature to replace a bleedout, or comeback mechanics (such as a lesser basekit NOED if 0 kills into endgame, or gen speed boosts on Survivor deaths). All of the negative extremes are what make normal people hate playing the game. I view the babyragequitters as an unfixable problem, but everyone else can be helped with these things I normally advocate for.
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@BlackRose89 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3800118#Comment_3800118
Live service games suck imo and are the ruination of the gaming industry. Now if days gamers don't own nothing, pretty much every thing we spend our money on can be taken from us in a second. Developers can get away with anything with no consequences bc their game is "live service" I miss the days of the PS2 and 360 man…
I'm with you there. Completed games on release. Plus all the couch co-op games that were good from playing with a friend alone.
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@GeneralSkien said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3800192#Comment_3800192
you know what she could really use? Focus, she does way too many things and it’s overwhelming for survivors, take out the stealth, take out the haste, and focus on the Claw traps and the hindered, focus on rewarding good placement, and good timing when switching, focus on what makes her good, and clean up the clunkiness.
Bringing the radar up to 4.6 from 4.4 to remove the self-slowdown would help in that regard. That way in a sense she partially is getting that 5% haste back in another form. I'm not even against her having stealth, its just everyone with basekit stealth has sound cues other than her, and that is a horrible design flaw. If she had a sound cue, her stealth would be fine.
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@GeneralSkien said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3800191#Comment_3800191
I think the main issue is miscommunication and I think that stems from the tunneling and skill issue accusations, I got angry when typing that cause even though it’s not true, being seen as a tunneler is an insult
Though we are made up of experiences and thought, we are only other people’s perceptions and all that.
the comparison I was trying to make with MTF and Skull merchant was about their changes. If you think about it they are actually really similar, both require little to no skill, and you get massive value out of it.
For MTF’s case they were changed, however they were given the compensation of being able to activate while exhausted, which before they couldn’t. This allowed true MTF heads (if you have a better name for that please let me know, I genuinely have fallen in love with DH + MFT in recent weeks) to still use a version of MTF, which requires a lot of set up. The point I’m making is, despite how Uber powerful it was, it was given a generous rework.
“Slap on the wrist” was a bad way of wording it, I’m sorry to provoke you
For Skull merchant, it was straight up nerfs, it doesn’t feel well thought out as it doesn’t touch any of her problematic aspects, it was just straight up nerfs, she got Freddied which is why I feel angry, they did promise a rework, but leaving her in an unplayable state for atleast 1-2 years feels very weird…
Again I’m sorry I provoked with my poor wording, I don’t think current MTF is meta, but it is VERY fun to use.My main thing with MfT is DH is on the Killer to fail, not the Survivor to succeed. That to me basically means you don't (normally) get actual MfT value. SM can force Drone scans or an M1, which guarantees her to get Haste (and Hindered) value or a free hit. That's how I see the difference between those. One requires the opponent to fail, and the other can be forced upon the opponent. That's why I likened it to old MfT, where it was guaranteed on injury, aka forced upon the opponent just like drone scans.
As I've said for SM, other than the scan lines they are actually nerfing the things that isn't liked about her current iteration. Although I can understand not liking the wait for a rework that will likely fail like the last 9/10 reworks they've done (SM, SM, Onryo, Onryo, Freddy, Twins, with Billy probably being the only good rework). She currently is such a terror though because too many people are hard DCing against her because the DC penalty is actually preferable to playing out that match.
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@GeneralSkien said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3800185#Comment_3800185
if I can be completely honest, as much as I like skull merchant, she could do without the stealth, it’s absolutely not needed, and it’s only there cause the original, the WAY original part of her kit included stealth (for some reason) same as the haste, there is no reason skull merchant needs the stealth, it’s clunky and unnecessary, and it conflicts with a perk that genuinely makes her pretty good.
They need to scrap the haste and undetectable, it doesn’t work, it just doesn’t fit her kit at all.I mean her entire kit is cobbled together with scraps and duct-tape. That's kinda why we are where we are now. If they actually had a good idea for the Killer beyond 'area lockdown' from the onset, she never would have been a problem. They have scrambled to make her a stealth Killer and a loop denial Killer and a Chase Killer all while keeping the area lockdown aspect, and she just needs 1 focused vision.
The problem is also since she was drawn and quartered in 4 different directions, that you get fans of her right leg, pulling against the fans of her left arm, pulling against fans of her left leg, pulling against fans of her right arm, all cheered on by people who just want her dead, leaving her a mangled mess of poor design. There is no making her whole, since too many people want different things out of her.
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@GeneralSkien said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3800179#Comment_3800179
I never said MTF is still powerful, I’m just saying it was Uber powerful, and the change was a slap on the wrist and not an absolute blood bath gutting, I actively run MFT + DH (TBH, I only do cause I physically forced myself not to use cause I didn’t want to be seen as toxic, and I wanna see what I missed out) I am just saying, considering how strong it was, it was given a very generous nerf sadly I never see it anymore when I play killer. It wasn’t completely gutted, if you wanted to use old MFT you would have to dedicate a build around it.
I never said current MFT is even powerful or broken, I was bringing it up to show a semi recent example of a completely busted perk getting a proper rework instead of an absolute gutting with no upsides. Don’t try to turn my words into something the ad hominem me, I don’t like tunneling, it’s a boring playstyle for both sides.
That aside she considering how harsh her nerfs are, I feel a compensation is needed, at the very least some small quality of life changes.Lets say power scales from 'why does this even exist' - dogwater - bad - mediocre at best - weak - neutral - strong - nutty - crazy powerful - ultra strong - uber powerful - broken OP. If you are saying it got a slap on the wrist, that tells me it only dropped 1-2 steps. so if its was either uber powerful or broken OP, it only got dropped to ultra strong. I just find it absurd that it would be anywhere above neutral, so 'slap on the wrist' is your phrasing that led me to even go down this route.
Again the only 'harsh nerf' for SM IMO is the double scan line to 1. All others are bringing a multi-effect Killer below the more single-track Killer's effectiveness.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3800094#Comment_3800094
Remember when they buffed Calm Spirit and Pharmacy and both perks became worse?
6.1 was a magical time. Although it was the type of magic like in horror movies, where they forget to swap out/intentionally sabotage the chainsaw before sawing the magicians assistant in half.
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@GeneralSkien said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3800171#Comment_3800171
you see, normally that wouldn’t be a problem since with 2 scan lines it’s impossible to dodge (which is problematic) I actually like the single scan line because it forces skull merchant players to use… actual skill, not as much as huntress, or spirit, but actual skill in terms of timing and placement of the drone, and timing when it comes to switching directions, it requires actual zoning skills and line ups rather than the spit out the drone playstyle. Removing a scan line actually a REALLY good change, however, due to the single scan line, dodging it is really easy, and every time you switch you reset bloodlust (last I tested, it’s been awhile since I played SM tbh)
This brings me to my issue, she is still absolutely a noob stomper still, they didn’t fix any of the issues that made her toxic, they just made her chase weaker.I mean any Killer with on demand stealth doesn't need a chase feature as well. Stealth (when used correctly) is an alternative to chase, that changes the formula from 'how much time did this save in chase vs powerless M1 chase' to 'how much time spent taking an alternative path was lost to guarantee a hit'. Many times as Ghosty, I spend ~8s extra for a stealthier route, and it saved me my ~20s for a normal chase hit. That's a 60% efficiency increase of lethality, from proper use of stealth. Heck, even if I'm bad and it only has a 50% chance of success, it still works out over time. I spend 20+8 on failed stealth 1, and +8 on successful stealth 2, for 36s vs 40s of 2 normal 20s chases.
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@ChaosWam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3800125#Comment_3800125
I've had friends quit over things in the game too, but they came back. Much like most who quit, it seems. Even I've taken extended breaks from time to time, it's natural to feel burnt out or overwhelmed at times due to additions/changes.
That is reflected in the steam charts as well, very clearly even. And stalling changes is the main reason we keep seeing this as well.
As far as her reworks, however, I'll give you that. They tend to keep dropping the ball on some things. Some killers have felt better with their adjustments and reworks, like Singularity and Sadako (to an extent. Personally I still think she needs a bit more tuning) while I think SM is just stuck with the stigma, unless drones get a COMPLETE overhaul on how they function.A strange thing I notice with this community is even when things are drastically changed, they stick to their stigmas of certain characters. Like frosty eyes = NOED, or all Dwights hide in lockers, or every Nea is toxic etc etc. I honestly believe SM will never escape that, either.
To be fair, I think most people joke about the stereotypes more than truly think they comform to them. At the same time, because of the stereotype, it makes the instances of them leaning in or doing the polar opposite more memorable. So if Dwight is a giga-juicer, you are going to remember that one Dwight, or if you run into a 5 gen turbo-tunneling Blight, you are going to go "just another normal Blight main".
In my last 2 SM games (because those are the only 2 matches I've had against her in recent memory), they intentionally bledout for the 4K. They didn't bother to actually chase, or simply hook. They set up a drone-zone, and never leave it, then proceed to bleedout Surv 3 to kill Surv 4. This is kind of what they call "earning the hate". How even if the stereotype didn't exist, they would have created that stereotype on their own, from the actions within their matches.
@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3800116#Comment_3800116
Skull merchant's haste is the most unique part of her kit. most killer gain burst haste in the form of abilities. skull merchant is only killer to give a small long, over-time haste boost as a killer. while i do think that bvhr weakening the killer for survivor to d/c is good idea, i don't think that entire removing out of her kit is good.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3800098#Comment_3800098
i agree. i dislike how resources wasted on skull merchant and not something like demogorgon, freddy or any other mediocre killer.
Yeah the haste was kind of unique, but I think it was a relic of previous design iterations. I think it was fine when disarming permanently reduced the total trap number, as long as it was on the Survivor's shoulder. The only problem with that design, was that Survivors needed to be able to hack unlimited traps, even if they have a tracker already on their shoulder. They could tie the Haste to the total shouldered trap count, and SM couldn't replace the traps freely since 3-5 could be on a single Survivor (back at that version of her).
At the same time, every Killer has Haste in the form of Bloodlust, so it isn't really that special IMO.
@GeneralSkien said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3800116#Comment_3800116
on the topic of MFT, considering how absolutely powerful it was, it got an absolute slap on the wrist, it works on DH builds, and niche endurance builds, it just isn’t as game breaking as it was.
Skull merchant was given absolutely nothing to compensate her nerfs, no QoL, no minor buffs to other parts, just a flat out nerf, which is absolutely rare for BHVR, especially for a mid tier killer.(To be fair, they pulled this exact same thing with trickster, RIP buddy)
I mean if you still think MfT is powerful, that is the greatest self-report to you being a turbo-tunneler, that I never thought I could even intentionally bait that out. To be clear, it wasn't intentional, just a happy coincidence.
SM was overtuned in 4 categories, while having more equivalent kit features than the comparable pieces. Stealth with no sound cues to beat out 5+ stealth Killers, traps auto-reseting which isn't even available for Hag, and an Iri add-on for Trapper, Hindered for a total of 60% compared to Freddy and Clowns ~45%, and Haste ranging from 3-7% (fairly easily obtained) compared to MfT's 3% with much more stringent conditions now. She didn't need a compensatory buff, when she had 4 better versions of sources' main feature.
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@GeneralSkien said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3800129#Comment_3800129
see the problem with 5% Hindered is that it comes at the cost of bloodlust, and the thing is, the killer have 5% speed is WAY better than the survivor having 5% hindered, the slow she applies is way too weak to warrant using her power.
My understanding of Bloodlust is that it only would drop if you throw out a new Drone. If they get scanned from an already existing Drone, it wouldn't drop, say an existing Bloodlust 2. I don't have SM gameplay recorded from the Killer end, so I can't double check (and bots don't help test such a specific circumstance as this); but I'm pretty sure you can still accrue Bloodlust no problem while also benefiting from Hindered.
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@GeneralSkien said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3800118#Comment_3800118
fixing an issue would require her to be in an atleast usable state, not one where her kneecaps are broken, and using her power makes her actively weaker in chase. Keeping the hindered at 10%, adding sound cues to when she places a drone, KILLING THE HASTE, allowing survivors to remove scans via hacking and a making it a single scan line and there you go, a C tier killer, no need for a rework, but this isn’t health design, she was an unhealthy killer but doing this feels like a slap in the face for anyone who invested any amount of blood points into her, I want my blood points back, if they plan to leave her in a near unusable state, while keeping everything that made her toxic was the worst case scenario.
Also, I am sorry about your meg, you deserve a refund.The problem with her Hindered is that it currently provides 60% total, compared to Clown/Freddy's ~45%. They could either halve the strength or duration of the Hindered, and they chose the strength. I would accept the duration instead of stregth, but both provide the same total value over time.
I play mostly Ghostface, but also Trapper/Clown/Legion/Dredge/Myers/Singularity are among my most common. These 'unsuably bad' Killers aren't remotely that bad, and SM would still be better (than them) even with the 4 categories of nerfs she honestly needs. I can still get 74% winrate before the gens pop, not even counting endgame wins. I actually really wanted to add her to my repertoire, but I also don't play Spirit or Nurse because I hate annoying people to that extreme. Hopefully she becomes not annoying to go against, then I can enjoy her on both sides, instead of not at all.
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@ChaosWam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3800116#Comment_3800116
Except we aren't hemorrhaging players because of SM alone. If that were the case, DBD would be dead by now considering how long she's been an issue to the loudest haters of her.
Even steamcharts shows the usual ebb and flow DBD gets, slightly higher these days even after a huge uptick in March and the Anniversary. And that's just Steam alone.
I'm sure if they focused better on making SM fun for both sides earlier and more clearly to the community it wouldn't have been an issue with player retention. This goes for any killer rework they have planned, considering we're still waiting for Myers and Freddy.Yeah there are a lot of issues, but for many people SM is merely 'the straw that breaks the camel's back'. There are a lot of flaws with the game, but since they are independent enough they can largely be ignored when you don't reach that critical breaking point.
I think 2v8 is solely responsible for the returning players, but I've lost a 2nd IRL friend permanently to the game because the sum flaws are too great. He was off and on then came back for 2v8, played 2 weeks to a month, then hard quit (as in actually hard uninstalled the game, not even leaving it on the harddrive in a 'I might play it occasionally' kind of way).
I think this is the problem though, her past 8 reworks (hyperbole) all have been focused on being more fun for both sides, and they fail every time. Personally I think they are actually doing 2/4 required nerfs to her, alongside needlessly dropping 2 scans to 1. I think they could return to 2 scans if they remove auto-resets for Drones, and add sound cues/lullaby for her in stealth.
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I think they should honestly pin one Killer as a 'perfect' middle power Killer. Then every 3 months, buff the bottom 5 and nerf the top 5 to swap them to the opposite side of the 'perfect' middle power Killer. Eventually all Killers would collapse tier lists from being S-D to A-C, and every Killer will be much more playable.
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@GeneralSkien said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3799129#Comment_3799129
while it is bad design, what I’m talking about right now is there very poor mishandling of balance, rather than fix any of her issues, they decided to gut her in the hopes people would stop playing her, and focus on a rework in 1-2 years. It’s awful and hostile balancing, and I want a refund on my blood points
Like I said, they are fixing 2/4 of her issues. Now she just needs sound cues in stealth, and Drones to require a manual reset.
If they kept her in as is, I'd want a total refund of all the money I've spent on the game, and this 'hostile balancing' is much less detrimental than the alternative.
I actually put in a support ticket for a Meg skin refund way way way back when they changed her character model, and they said (basically) since it was a live game, they can do WHATEVER they want, and we just have to deal with it, too bad so sad.
My honest advice is quit spending money/time before things get worse, because in my time with the game, it (net) largely has.
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Destroy the game by leaving SM as is, or butcher her (temporarily) and make the game playable for everyone else. Wow, tough choice /s.
@GeneralSkien said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3799909#Comment_3799909
yeah but, it’s BHVR… it’s been 4 years since any Freddy tweaks, almost 7 years since myers, and also like 3 years for twins (I’m not familiar so the year could be wrong)
It’s fine that it’s confirmed that skull merchant is getting a change, but it will not be soon at all, so to gut skull merchant, and to say “we’ll fix her don’t worry just wait a year or two and we will fix her” just seems kinda stupid
BTW her FIRST AND SECOND rework were supposed to fix these issues.Since they have kind of proven that they only make things worse when they try to rework Killers, it is far better for the health of the game to remove the problematic elements. We don't have old MfT, and I had no problem going against that as Killer (partially because SB was my personal bane). We removed MfT since too many Killers had a problem going against it, just as most Survivors have a problem going against SM. If you want to reinstate MfT and keep SM, I'd join you in a burn the game to the ground kind of way, but in the meantime, maybe we should put out fires instead of starting more.
@ChaosWam said:
They're aware how long it takes to make adjustments to things, especially with how they pump out content, and then do stuff like this. It's so strange to me.
Why not allocate your resources better for killer reworks? There's a lot of issues the game has, and they're only compounding it by putting things on the backburner constantly and nerfing things like this. I understand this is live service and all, but it's still a slap to the face to anyone who bought SM, those who think she deserved it or not.Sadly they will only allocate resources where money is. Survivors quitting the game due to a poorly designed Killer means less money coming in. Reworking an older Killer doesn't always work (see Twins), and you don't get the revenue for another sale since the playerbase already owns them. This is the most cost effective option (sadly), thus nerf SM.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3799990#Comment_3799990
That was their stated philosophy for 6.1.0, and I believe they consider that a mistake. At least the community did.
More recently the balance philosophy has been around the 60% kill rate, not about perk or item usage.
I'm coming around to thinking 60% killrate is now a mistake, and instead a 60% winrate (discarding draws [2K+2E]) would be better. When I did the math, 60% killrate results in 20-80% Killer winrate, 0-80% Draw rate, and 0-40% Survivor winrate, depending on the subset used (with Survivor winrate always lower than Killer).
But yeah I think 6.1 philosophy of 'popularity nerfs' was foolish to put the most kind way possible. (Plus we got bizarre nerfs like Thana and Calm Spirit becoming worse when they intended to buff them.)
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Intentionally aim for 8 hooks before a kill. By playing to only win when you are better than every Survivor in the lobby, you will naturally learn how to win, even when outmatched. If you start to rely on tunneling a weak link, once you play too much in top MMR, where there are less weak links, your wincon vanishes.
SWF only has a significant impact against macro Killers, like Trapper or Ghostface. Even then, there are tactics you can use against SWFs that you can't use on solos. You play in a manner to cause them to call out false info, that way they can't trust one another's callouts. For Ghosty, often times this means stuff like forcing a "he dropped me (in chase)" to stealth around a weird corner and hit them instead. You can also leave a Southern hook by going NorthWest, then curve off to due East once out of LOS.
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@HexHuntressThighs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3799716#Comment_3799716
cough cough Hex Ruin cough cough
All the 6.1 perk nerfs were bad, and should have been thought over. DS/Pop/Self-Care/PR/Calm Spirit/Thana/and so on. Maybe you could single nerf many of them, but most of them got double nerfed needlessly. For example, Ruin should be 200%, removed on death, not 100% and not removed on death, they rebuffed the wrong portion of the perk.
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@ChaosWam said:
Apparently.
A follow up post was made about it too.https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/J6KL9CDHWO86/capture-png.png
No matter how you feel about it, this is what the stats argue. Feels oddly close to home with killer killrates showing how Freddy is in the top 10 and Nurse is in the lower bracket, doesn't it?
I think these BHVR numbers are a bit misleading, because they didn't include the rate of 2+ minutes, or full on Bleedout deaths as well. I want to know what % of people are fully bledout, especially since after hook respawn, there is 0 actual justification for it (barring an IRL fire or the likes). Also 2+ minute bleedouts are also much too common as well, and I think its more telling that they decided to leave that number out.
Well, let me be more clear. Since they left 2+ minute bleedouts out of the stats, I truly think somewhere from 51-99% of the '35+ second' are actually 2+ minute/death bleedouts. That means this post to me, is BHVR admitting to ~12%, or 1 in 8 people being bledout for minimum 2 minutes. That number is WAY too high (for greater clarity I think 5% would be unfortunate but acceptable in the current climate/no self pickups). Even their official 24% 35s+ is enough to justify a basekit self-pickup IMO.
I largely agree with the 15s match total being a non-issue though.
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The only thing here that would deserve a change is Eruption's proc not counting towards the 8 limit. I think that would be fine, even on super mobility Killers.
@Backmon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3799868#Comment_3799868
Official killrate/escape rate actually proved my position. Killrate is lower than ever. And escape rate is huge especially in SWF.
Combining both of these we get ~55% Solo, ~30% Duo, ~10% Trio, ~5% full SWF.
Plugging that in to the overall numbers, we get .55*40.34 + .3*40.1 + .1*40.56 + .05*43.09 for 40.4275% Overall escape rate.
Even if you wanted to use exclusively High MMR, that yields .55*39.42 + .3*40.1 + .1*42.46 + .05*48.3 for 40.372% High MMR escape rate.
Even if you want to take the best case scenario for Survivor, High MMR with full SWF only, they still are sub 50% escape rate.
The funniest thing to me is, High MMR actually has lower escape rates than all/lower MMRs, so the top end of normal DBD matchmaking is actually more Killer sided than the lower end.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3799553#Comment_3799553
I'll grant you TL walls, because she is quite good at making those unsafe- it's still something the survivor can try to play, but if the drone's placed right and you get unlucky with rotation timings, sure. You're probably getting scanned. Sometimes that'll happen, most killers have particular loops that they're good at making unsafe, and separately sometimes you're best off letting the killer get something so they can't get their best case scenario rolling. Most killers aren't ALWAYS avoidable, just USUALLY avoidable.
Shack is a good example of how much variability and decisionmaking is present in her power, though. On the survivor side, leveraging line of sight blocking is significantly easier at a structure like shack, and it's a big enough structure that you do still have time to crouch/stop unless the killer's right on you (at which point it doesn't matter, they're getting a hit anyway). This is tripled if shack has a generator in it, but I think it's fair to assume it doesn't for this hypothetical.
On the killer side, though, shack represents an interesting gamble, because Merchant's beams follow similar rules to Deathslinger's harpoon in what they can shine through. The survivor has a lot of line of sight blocking available, but you have small gaps you can snipe through if you're on point with your placement and timing, or you can try to play it more safe and use manual rotation or reasonable timing to force survivors to run into the beam as they round a corner. Shack is a tile that Merchant can use her power at, but it's also a tile that survivors get a lot of options to counter that power at too.
The same general logic applies to most jungle gyms, though those tend to have fewer gaps for Merchant to snipe through depending on the map. Line of sight blocking gets stronger, and they're generally big enough that you have time to crouch/stop if you have to, but you're at slightly more risk of running into a reversed beam since you can't see them as easily. Tradeoffs, with ups and downs for both sides.
The tiles that you just flat out can't play against Skull Merchant are generally tiny loops with an unsafe pallet and very low walls, like some of the Ormond snow pile type loops. I don't consider this a flaw because there are a lot of killers that excel at those loops, even more than Merchant does- they're just not very good loops in general.
I just don't see Merchant's power as a negative flowchart because there are too many options at most tiles in the game. I could see people subjectively finding it unfun, or even finding it repetitive, but a simple flowchart it isn't. Between leveraging LoS, crouching/stopping to avoid a scan, tactically taking one scan to make better distance, and taking an M1 to avoid a claw trap, survivors have a lot of micro decisions to make about what the best option is at any given tile, AND the power requires different options at different tiles. That's a fair amount of variability.
At this point we are just circling around 'agree to disagree'. I would draw a diagram, that the issue happens with all basic jungle gyms. But yeah, we just are speaking past each other, so agree to disagree.
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@solidhex said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3797651#Comment_3797651
"A Killer shows up so you HAVE to play against them - Exactly this is a flaw that needs correcting! What happened to people with Photosensitivity against Trickster? They could die. What happened against Clown for people who get nauseous or a Plague for people with emetophobia? They puke their guts out on their keyboard. What happens with people playing against Skull Merchant? Taking off their fingernails seems like a logical alternative to playing out the match. Get rid of negative extremes, just put in Killer bans."
Sorry to specifically picking out this bit but this mindset is flawed.
What about traumatized people who had real life experience with murder (of a relative or close friend) or torture? What about people who are very sensitive to violence? They will never be able to enjoy this game in it's current nature, should BHVR now change the game to something completely different? What i'm trying to say is, it's impossible to please everyone.Yes, improving accessibility and reduce barriers is good and important, but only to the point where the character of the game isn't changed.
I'm afraid of heights and don't like the adrenaline pumping situations of a rollercoaster ride or similar amusement rides. That doesn't mean i'm asking the owner of the park to change the rollercoaster into going slower and remove the high loopings and stuff. It's just not for me, i have to accept that (or overcome my fears, if possible).The game has to do with murder every single match. All of the issues I've listed are various single Killer problems. It isn't a matter of pleasing everyone, it is a matter of double dipping a single solution (Killer bans) for multiple beneficial effects. If I bring a pallet stun tome, I'm gunna ban all ranged Killers. If I bring a TR tome, I'm gunna ban stealth Killers. If I have emetophobia, I'm gunna permaban Plague. If I have tryptophobia, I'm gunna ban Singularity in case they bring a Mori.
Killer bans provides both basic QoL, like nearly every other game that allows hero/champion/unique character picks, as well as letting people use it for accessibility reasons.
My Killer ban suggestion puts us at 1 ban per 5 Killers (round down), so 39 Killers would yield 7 bans (~18%). That gives 20% bans at the max when the multiple of 5 Killer comes out. I'm not asking to adjust more than 90% of matches, or more than 75% matches, or more than half of matches, but 20% max.
I would also suggest a 'previous Killer' ban be an option. That way you can avoid playing against the same Killer 7 matches in a row (my current high score on Surv [ignoring newly released Killers]). You could even stack the option to say ban Plague, then all remaining slots are 'previous Killer'. That way with 6 bans, if you play against Legion in the first match, you won't play against them in the next 5 matches (until Legion falls out of the 'previous Killer' slots). It is so bizarre to me that we got map repeat prevention years before Killer repeat prevention.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3799375#Comment_3799375
There's really not much more to say here other than to point out that her counterplay just works, and it isn't "take a free scan or grant a free M1".
I know the answer for everyone is "not much", but I have to ask how much experience you have playing against her. If I can reliably dodge drones without giving Merchant free hits, it's just something the average survivor has available as counterplay, because above average I am not.
The fact of the matter is, if you're at a loop and you're dodging drone beams, there is something between you and Merchant and you are playing around a resource. Confident survivors will walk off Exhaustion in chase with other M1 killers, because they just aren't threatening until they're in lunge range, and if you're denying Merchant scans then she is just an M1 killer.
You can boil almost every killer down to a flowchart, that doesn't make any of their designs inherently flawed because of it.
I guess one of the largest problems is we probably don't have the same loops in mind. When I am saying 'you get scanned no matter what', I'm thinking Killer Shack or an LT wall or the 2 main pallet+window basic jungle gyms. In each of those loops, the scan is unavoidable if the SM put the drone in the right spot (which can be done on arrival, and isn't even a far off location that needs a setup in advance). The Killer is always going to be close enough that a scan dodge will force an M1 in its place, barring a 10m headstart and a pre-placed Drone.
Lets take the LT wall. The Drone is freshly set up in the center, and the Killer is following from behind to the outside of the T half. The Survivor has to take a scan hit to vault the T window in time. Alternatively you run wide to avoid the scan, and go to the outside of the L. Well now the SM is close enough to get an M1 before the Surv can even get around to the other side of the L to force the 50-50. Knowing the scans are forced, the SM now can play to get the fastest scans, since the suboptimal play on Survivor gives them a hit regardless.
Most drone locations cover the midpoint of the 2 resources (pallet and window most commonly), making it simply not possible to avoid both a scan AND hit in chase.
Also to break down what I mean by pejoratively using 'flowchart', I mean any circumstance where there is a clear objective best solution, and 50-50s don't exist. Many Killer powers introduce their own 50-50s (or adjust the basic 50-50 for more lethality or faster rate of 50-50s), for example Huntress. Huntress can throw a Hatchet, or disrespect the pallet. The Survivor can greed the pallet, or throw the pallet. Huntress wins throwing the Hatchet when the Survivor throws the pallet, and also wins when she disrespects the pallet and the Survivor greeds the pallet. When the opposite Survivor choice is taken for those scenarios, the Survivor wins instead. 50-50s, without a flowchart. Pyramid Head/Nemesis M2 holding up to a window block is the boring flowchart gameplay. Once animation locked, use power, otherwise block window. Flowchart for free hit. SM falls into this flowchart, not the interesting Huntress 50-50 gameplay. Bubba can also be put in the place of Huntress for interesting 50-50 choices, but he benefits from the lethality of his 50-50s.
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@Merciless_Killer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3799377#Comment_3799377
Drop pallets, take windows, like any m1 killer? If you do get scanned you have a 3 second invulnerability period. You can waste plenty of her time at one loop even with a drone in it. If she goes to break the pallet you get distance. If you get claw trapped you get the same post hit speed boost to you would normally get from getting hit to make it to another loop. You can stand still for a brief second to avoid being scanned(do that if she isn't just holding W around the loop.)
Acting like there is nothing you can do against a Skull Merchant is just crazy.If someone normally plays a loop optimally with 3 window vaults, the Killer doesn't get anything other than Bloodlust. The Drone gives you an injury AND Bloodlust. If you stop or crouch through for merely half a second, you lose ~1.2-2m of distance. So everything I already said still stands.
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@Ohyakno said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3799377#Comment_3799377
You can disable the drones. Vaults exist. Pallets exist. She's a mid B tier killer.
You can't disable drones mid-chase, someone else has to assume that the chase will be sent North instead of West or South or East and pre-disarm for you. Vaults and Pallets existing doesn't prevent a Drone from scanning mid loop, so entity blocking a window with 3 good vaults Injures and Deep Wounds you regardless while she gets Bloodlust 1 for free.
She is only as weak as she is because Dash Killers and Mobility Killers are so strong. Even then, she is better than Ghosty/Myers/Freddy at Stealth (no sound cues with ~90% uptime). Better at Clown/Freddy at Hindered (60% total [10*6] vs ~45% total [15*3]). Better than old MfT at Haste (going 3-7% while not being mutually exclusive with other features). Better than Trapper and Hag with auto-reset traps when Hag gets nothing, and Trapper costs him an Iri add-on. Why is she allowed to be better in 4 different categories to comparable sources, and people be surprised when people don't like her?
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If Survivor is so easy, get 8/10 3E+ in a row. It shouldn't be difficult. You get 2 losses to pad your stats, so if someone DCed or Kobe'd out of the match then you surely would still be able to win all the rest.
The true problem is you probably just reached topcap MMR. You no longer can crutch on tunneling the 40 Survivor in a match with 40/45/55/60 MMR Survs, and you as the 50 MMR Killer. Now you are the 75 Killer (the bottom of the topcap) going against a best case 75/75/75/75. Intentionally 8 hook before your first kill, and you will have trained yourself to only win when you can beat the best Survivor in the match. Then you will win (nearly) every match even with meme perks.
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@Merciless_Killer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3799124#Comment_3799124
No it was absolute nonsense. SM has counterplay already. Her hinder effect doesn't even come into play until you get scanned 4 ######### times so removing haste but leaving hinder makes no ######### sense and doesn't even do anything to counteract the fact she loses bloodlust.
When you run through a loop, you get scanned every rotation (sometimes twice), and if you leave the loop, you give her a free M1. So how again does she have counterplay?
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3799162#Comment_3799162
I mean, if dodging beams is forced slowdown, so is dodging literally anything else in the game, especially since most of them generally require you to go further out of your way than Merchant's beams do.
It's also still very much interaction and therefore still completely avoidable, to refer to the next point. It's not that it's "so hard", it's that it's part of a back and forth that just flat out doesn't exist for powers like Clown's Afterpiece Tonic. It's still mistake/outplay even if it isn't the hardest thing in the game, especially in comparison to killers like Clown. That's why it's okay for her numbers to be close, because Clown is point-and-click and Merchant requires more interaction/has more points of potential avoidance for survivor. Merchant has to build to her Hindered in a way survivors can avoid, Clown doesn't, there's no getting around that.
The rest of your post mostly rests on those points, so I think it'd be repetitive to go any further.
Like I said, it is avoidable if you grant a free M1 in the open. Same flowchart gameplay as Pyramid Head holding power running up to the window then blocking into M1. Plenty of powers allow for both sides to make an attempt, but the very nature of the drones removes that entirely. The other facet is dodging the Killer's power is typically tied to the Killer's location. You can dodge a hatchet and still be safe from her, dodge a Demo Shred or Wesker Dash and reach a window/pallet during the CD. SM doesn't share that good design. She chases as a powerless M1 Killer, and the drone forcibly impacts the viable loop pathing for either a free M1 or scan into injury/hindered+hit. This is not the same for most Killers, as they either get an alternative looping method entirely, or still offers normal pathing. She is very similar to Artist's flowchart gameplay of 'block path to force open M1 or loop M2 hit', but at least Artist (without a certain add-on) can be mindgamed into forcing the power to miss.
As a Clown enjoyer, I would argue top end Clown gameplay is flowchart like as well. Preplace Purple at one end and Yellow at the other, get hit (as a great oversimplification). The flowchart is determined from experience or checking out that Clown manifesto. Since most people aren't at that stage, the counterplay of risking another loop/dropping pallet still remains for most matches. SM hits M2 and shuts down an entire loop, particularly effective at jungle gyms/Shack blocking a window and Pallet at the same time. The issue is she doesn't even need to read a manifesto to reach that flow(chart) state, she just uses power normally.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3799122#Comment_3799122
But you're making her chase more flowchart with these changes. The interaction currently is in dodging drone beams, something that was very carefully designed to be very doable and viable because people didn't like her not having any chase interaction (beyond basic M1 interaction, anyway). If being scanned isn't harmful to you until you hit three, and even then it's just an injury, why bother interacting with her power? More to the point, why would the killer player bother using their power if it takes four times as much effort to get something Legion gets just for pressing M2, or that Ghostface gets with a possible instadown on top just for pressing M2? You'd boil Merchant down to basically just doing M1 gameplay with mediocre stealth and maybe hoping that they can get an injure- which itself also becomes significantly harder with BHVR's changes and yours combined.
What you're missing in your rundown up above is that the comparisons you're drawing are stronger, at least in the context they're being compared, because Skull Merchant's power can be completely avoided through interaction and theirs can't.
Take Clown, for example. You say Merchant's Hindered should be weaker than Clown's, and I agree- it should be, and it is. It's a lower number, for only very slightly longer duration, that takes four total mistakes/outplays to achieve. Clown gets the higher number, for a comparable amount of time, with no mistake or outplay required, he just points and clicks. The same is true of his Haste, for that matter- while it's easier to achieve for Merchant than her Hindered, it's also considerably weaker in effect and iirc even in duration.
Another good example would be Trapper and Hag. While, obviously, both Hag and Merchant are significantly better than the worst killer in the game, the reason that Merchant gets auto-reset traps is because they're not guaranteed. If you run into a Bear Trap's effective radius, you are injured and immobilised. If you run into a Phantasm Trap's effective radius, it triggers. If you run into a Drone's active radius… you then have to also be scanned by the beams in order to get a single scan, which doesn't affect you until you reach three. The reason that single scan affects her is so that there's a reason to engage with the actual interactive part of her power.
The thing that works about Skull Merchant's power is the fact that it both has clear points of interaction and skill expression for both sides, and that those points of interaction are emphasised because the results of her power working are something the survivor actually wants to avoid. If the result is actively weaker than good M1 play… why would either side care about the interaction, or put any skill into the expression?
The current dodging beams isn't an interaction, its a forced slowdown. I mean heck, if you crouch for half a second to not get scanned, that's effectively 35% hindered, and they lose ~1.5m of distance. It's a flowchart of crouch or not. Is this 3rd scan? Crouch. No interaction, simple flowchart. Now theoretically you can say tanking the 2 scans could be where there is interaction, do I leave loop or take the scan. The problem there is it still is basically a free injury at all normal loops.
The other facet is the horrendous slowdown her power incurs. Crouching or playing red-light green-light slows navigation by a ton, and disarming the trap takes longer (as well as telling the Killer someone is there).
Clown's gas is 2s+ gas duration, SM's is 6s. The only time gas duration is over 1s, is if both Killer and Survivor are back-forth-back-forthing at a loop. SM's is essentially double duration, so in the best case scenario, her hindered should be half Clown's. Also SM's scans aren't outplays, they are 'did you hold W and get M1'd in the open, or play the loop and get scanned minimum 1 time per rotation'.
Again with the 'scans are so hard' claim. Scans are much too easy, which is likely why they are nerfing the lines from 2 to 1. This is actually the only nerf I'm not fully on board with, although I think as a temporary nerf until sound cues and auto-reset are fixed it is fine.
There is no skill interaction for Survivor with SM. It is stay at loop and get freely scanned, or hold W and get M1'd in the open. I could maybe grant macro skill interaction like Ghosty/Trapper if the drones didn't auto-reset. That way 1 dedicated 'Killer Bully' can prevent the Killer's power from making the Survivors lose the match. That is the true counter to both Ghosty and Trapper, a Macro bully that always reveals/disarms traps. If SM was adjusted to work like them, without auto-resetting traps, then I could grant skill interaction here (on a macro level, she still lacks it on a micro level).
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@HamsterEnjoyer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3798564#Comment_3798564
This is an entire sheet of skill issue cause oh my god who complains about STEALTH on skull merchant
I am a Ghosty main. Using your ears is a prime form of counterplay against getting downed by him. You can't just pretend that design flaws are skill issues. Are you saying Clown should 'skilledly' hack his purple gas to Hinder 45% instead of 15%? Are you saying Ghosty's should abuse the silent pay-to-win skins? Are you saying Hag should 'skilledly' hack traps to spawn 5 more each time 1 gets tripped. Are you saying MfT should return, and it's just a skill issue for Baby Killers? That's what it sounds like you're saying when you don't actual provide a counter for each of those points.
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@GeneralSkien said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3798537#Comment_3798537
I never said SM didn't need changes, in fact I have been very vocal that Skull Merchant needed changes, but this is the wrong way to go about it. She was absolutely problematic, I don't think a single DBD player thought she should go unchanged, HOWEVER these changes don't even address the (I will admit very good) points you made.
She still have auto resetting traps, she still has the problematic stealth, she still has all her problematic lockdown, and 3 gen features, they just neutered her chasing ability. Taking away the haste was the only positively received change I saw, cause it was the most BS mechanic ANY killer had. The issue is, this won't make Skull merchant more fun to go against, it just makes her less fun to play. Its a lose, lose for both SM players, and survivors.Also, its painting a very broad stroke to imagine every single SM player, plays with the intention of making sure others have a bad time.
I mean just like Twins, they can't fix bad design. The parts of the bad design that are fixable have (partially) been addressed. The only exception IMO is the single drone scan line. I don't think that is the right move, and I would welcome the double scan back if all the other problems are addressed. As a temp nerf though, I think its fine (as long as it remains temporary).
I think the problematic lockdown is accommodated by the auto-reset. If they add manual resets, then I think that is a two-birds one-stone fix. The problem is too many Killers aren't fun at all for Survivors. I just can't be bothered if a Killer that isn't fun for Survivors isn't fun for the Killer at the same time.
As far as 'every SM is doing this to ruin people's lives', it is hyperbole, sure, but rooted in truth. I don't play Nurse (barring tomes/dailies), because I know how unenjoyable it is to go against her. If I know how much of a bad time I am subjecting others to, and make that conscious decision to still go through with it, then it has to be intentional. The problem is most SM's I go against 'earn the hate' because they bleedout for the 4K. Its hard to think someone isn't going in to be a jerk, when everyone else putting on that same pair of pants acts the same negative way.
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3798558#Comment_3798558
This post is more talking about the transparency and how bHVR is conducting themselves. Not discussing the actual changes.
Ok I guess to be clearer, maybe my post (describing her current flaws) should have been the dev message. It clearly details all the problems with SM, and how the current actions are parts 1 and 2, of 4 total nerfs that must be done to make her not frustrating to go against.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3798564#Comment_3798564
Legitimate question - what exactly do you think her power is supposed to do?
If she shouldn't have meaningful Hindered and she shouldn't have Haste at all, what's her chase power? As a secondary question, because it's inherently tied to the first and must be answered at the same time, why would survivors ever bother to dodge drone beams - the interactive gameplay part of her design - if they don't actually do anything meaningful in general or anything period if they're already injured?
I view her as a hybrid multi-power Killer (in effect).
Its fine for her to be a hybrid multi-power Killer like Vecna and Dracula, but each of their powers should be weaker than the full Killer counterpart.
Stealth is a form of chase power, by reducing the chase timer from (lets say) 20s to 0s when used correctly. Hindered at 5% for 6s would still yield the 30% total slowdown, and that is still reapplied if they stick at the loop.
I don't consider flowchart gameplay interactive, and her drones would mostly be described as such. Pyramid Head is really fun to go against when they go for risky M2s (because you know they are the actual skilled Pyramid Head players), but when they simply hold power to bodyblock a window into a free M1, it isn't fun.
Also drones can still injure people, so chasing someone into a trap ala Hag/Trapper is still an effective way to shorten chases.
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Copied from (my post in) another nearly similar thread (with fixed spelling):
SM is better at 4 (legitimate) categories than the original/comparable Killers are.
Stealth - She has no audio cues with ~90% stealth uptime. Myers/Ghosty/Freddy/Onryo/Dredge all have sound cues, so why doesn't she? Add sound cues and she is fine in this department.
Hindered - Clown and Freddy slow 15% for ~3s, or 45% total hindered. She slows 10% for 6s, or 60% total hindered. Her hindered should be worse than theirs. Either halve the % or halve the duration and she is fine here, oh wait, that's a proposed nerf! Fix in progress.
Haste - MfT apparently was too powerful at 3%, and she gets it as well as up to more than double it. Revert MfT, or remove the Haste, oh wait, that's a proposed nerf! Fix in progress.
Traps (with the potential for damage) Auto-reset - Hag doesn't get this, and Trapper needs an Iridescent add-on to do this. Make the drones require an add-on, or physical reset, and she is fine in this department.
Bugs (the 5th illegitimate category)- Bugtech got fixed, but she still gets triple scans on a single scan. Fix this bug so that the 3s scan delay actually applies, and she is fine in this department.
The proposed nerfs only end up fixing half of her design flaws. Ideally she gets a stealth sound cue, and traps stop auto-resetting in the next update to actually make her fair.
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Copied from (my post in) another nearly similar thread (with fixed spelling/phrasing):
SM is better at 4 (legitimate) categories than the original/comparable Killers are.
Stealth - She has no audio cues with ~90% stealth uptime. Myers/Ghosty/Freddy/Onryo/Dredge all have sound cues, so why doesn't she? Add sound cues and she is fine in this department.
Hindered - Clown and Freddy slow 15% for ~3s, or 45% total hindered. She slows 10% for 6s, or 60% total hindered. Her hindered should be worse than theirs. Either halve the % or halve the duration and she is fine here, oh wait, that's a proposed nerf! Fix in progress.
Haste - MfT apparently was too powerful at 3%, and she gets it as well as up to more than double it. Revert MfT, or remove the Haste, oh wait, that's a proposed nerf! Fix in progress.
Traps (with the potential for damage) Auto-reset - Hag doesn't get this, and Trapper needs an Iridescent add-on to do this. Make the drones require an add-on, or physical reset, and she is fine in this department.
Bugs (the 5th illegitimate category)- Bugtech got fixed, but she still gets triple scans on a single scan. Fix this bug so that the 3s scan delay actually applies, and she is fine in this department.
The proposed nerfs only end up fixing half of her design flaws. Ideally she gets a stealth sound cue, and traps stop auto-resetting in the next update to actually make her actually balanced.
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Copied from (my post in) another nearly similar thread (with fixed spelling):
SM is better at 4 (legitimate) categories than the original/comparable Killers are.
Stealth - She has no audio cues with ~90% stealth uptime. Myers/Ghosty/Freddy/Onryo/Dredge all have sound cues, so why doesn't she? Add sound cues and she is fine in this department.
Hindered - Clown and Freddy slow 15% for ~3s, or 45% total hindered. She slows 10% for 6s, or 60% total hindered. Her hindered should be worse than theirs. Either halve the % or halve the duration and she is fine here, oh wait, that's a proposed nerf! Fix in progress.
Haste - MfT apparently was too powerful at 3%, and she gets it as well as up to more than double it. Revert MfT, or remove the Haste, oh wait, that's a proposed nerf! Fix in progress.
Traps (with the potential for damage) Auto-reset - Hag doesn't get this, and Trapper needs an Iridescent add-on to do this. Make the drones require an add-on, or physical reset, and she is fine in this department.
Bugs (the 5th illegitimate category)- Bugtech got fixed, but she still gets triple scans on a single scan. Fix this bug so that the 3s scan delay actually applies, and she is fine in this department.
The proposed nerfs only end up fixing half of her design flaws. Ideally she gets a stealth sound cue, and traps stop auto-resetting in the next update to actually make her fair.
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SM is better at 4 (legitimate) categories than the original/comparable Killers are.
Stealth - She has no audio cues with ~90% stealth uptime. Myers/Ghosty/Freddy/Onryo/Dredge all have sound cues, so why doesn't she? Add sound cues and she is fine in this department.
Hindered - Clown and Freddy slow 15% for ~3s, or 45% total hindered. She slows 10% for 6s, or 60% total hindered. Her hindered should be worst than theirs. Either halve the % or halve the duration and she is fine here, oh wait, that's a proposed nerf! Fix in progress.
Haste - MfT apparently was too powerful at 3%, and she gets it up to more than double it. Revert MfT, or remove the Haste, oh wait, that's a proposed nerf! Fix in progress.
Traps Auto-reset - Hag doesn't get this, and Trapper needs an Iridescent add-on to do this. Make the drones require an add-on, or physical reset and she is fine in this department.
Bugs - Bugtech got fixed, but she still gets triple scans on a single scan. Fix this bug so that the 3s scan delay actually applies, and she is fine in this department.
The proposed nerfs only end up fixing half of her design flaws. Ideally she gets a stealth sound cue, and traps stop auto-resetting in the next update to actually make her fair.
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@GeneralSkien said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3797718#Comment_3797718
The Large reaction of survivor mains still whining even after these nerfs are insane, it proves that it never really was about making SM balanced, or adding more counterplay, it was just to gut a killer. They could have introduced changes that solved ALL of skull merchants issues, and people would still reject it. These reactions to these changes aren't out of a longing for balance, they are out of spite.
Not even a Survivor main, but I can recognize garbage design.
If someone kicked you in the nuts, would you want them to have a good time? Probably not. That's the digital equivalent of what a Skull Merchant pick has been doing to 4 Survivor victims every match. It doesn't matter if it is spite, because it is against someone who was more spiteful to begin with.
SM still has 90% uptime stealth with 0 sound cues, which is still far too powerful. Give her sound cues like every other stealth Killer (Myers/Ghosty/Dredge/Freddy/Onryo/etc.) and she'd be fine here.
Haste was allegedly too powerful for Survivors to have at 3% (although I liked going against it as Ghosty because Sprint Burst was more powerful than MfT against my playstyle), yet she got that and even more. Deleting Haste or reverting MfT would be fine here, although I'm sure most Killers don't want MfT back (again, I liked it as a Killer, because SB was my counter, and this made less people bring SB).
Her 10% Hindered lasts 6s without add-ons (for 60% total), yet Clown's 15% lasts Cloud+2s (for roughly 3s or 45%), and Freddy's 15% lasts similar duration (3s for 45%). 5% for 6s keeps it at 30% total, which is good here given that she has multiple facets to her power that Clown and Freddy can't claim nearly the same level of.
Her traps reset themselves, which can't happen for Hag, and can only happen with an Iridescent add-on for Trapper. Don't auto-reset traps, force a physical reset, then she'd be fine here.
So to recap, she has better stealth than Myers and Ghostface, better Hindered than Clown and Freddy, Haste in excess of MfT, an Iridescent add-on basekitted, and that still isn't even including her bugged add-on(s?) causing triple scans without a delay (when there is supposed to be a 3s delay between each scan). So even if we were to pretend spite wasn't in the equation, she was deserving nerfs in all of these categories for being better at all comparable powers/perks AND stacking all of them. The funny thing is, the Haste and Hindered facets are actually the correct decision to be made here. She still needs sound cues in stealth, and her traps to not auto-reset (without an add-on), then she would actually be fine (if they also fixed the bugged add-on triple stacking on 1 scan).
@danielmaster87 said:
Killer basically gets nothing. Survivor gets the world over.
If we were to accept this delusional statement, then that would simply mean killrates must be at 65%-75% and needing to be dropped is all.
Then again we are getting massive nerfs to Distortion, massive buffs to Zenshin and Deathbound and Crowd Control, so this statement clearly wasn't based in reality. Pyramid Head and Artist will probably run Zenshin every match, and Deathbound was good before, and now its going to be great. I guess 4-slowdown Killers didn't get anything, but that's fine, since they got Pop/PR/Deadlock/Grim all nerfed for the rest of us. So I'd be glad if 4-slowdown Killers never get catered to again if they get my PR nerfed anymore.
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@NerfDHalready said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3797677#Comment_3797677
it's more so you are stuck in semantics. what could i mean by hittank in relation to your older reply? you said bodyblocking with otr opens up a tunnel. obviously i also meant that, bodyblocking for someone else.
you argue bodyblocking for someone else with otr has some kind of downside to it but there is not, that's the whole point i'm making. the argument of "opening themselves up for a tunnel" doesn't make sense because it just makes the killer decide to tunnel instead. i then proceeded to say forcing the killer into making that decision might be beneficial for the survivor with the correct set up (perks and all that macro skill talk). so the killer either commits to the bad decision that's tunneling or eat the bodyblock and leave them be.
here, i explained the concept of offensive use of otr and how that doesn't mean giving a free tunneled dead survivor on the spot.
The only case where an OTR bodyblock hinders a Killer remotely is when they are attempting to chase Surv A with 2 hooks, and Surv B with 1 hook and OTR tanks the hit. Any other case is better for Killer to hit the OTR user. If the OTR user had tied hooks, then it denies DH when the other Surv could have it, which would 'open them up for a tunnel'. If the OTR user had more hooks, then they are closer to death, which would 'open them up for a tunnel'.
Is it a 'free dead Survivor on the spot' of course not, and no one was every making as extreme of a claim. Only that it would be easier. Whether that is slightly easier, or massively easier depends on match conditions, but it makes it easier regardless.
Even if the OTR user also has DS, the Killer is perfectly capable of slugging them for 61s from the unhook timer, and chasing someone else in the meantime. If someone goes to pick them up, then the Killer gets slowdown. If the Killer is fast in chase, then they could tunnel through DS at no meaningful cost. If the Killer is slow in chase, those 61s are already up.
I'm still not seeing a situation where an OTR bodyblock will actually help.
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Mori - Does Iri still unlock Moris on everyone? What if I Mori the first 3 with Devour Hope and give the last Hatch? Should this just unlock the BP if you Mori anyone, not only the final person? Edit 2: How about Yellow Mori give 100% BP if you Mori, Green Mori giving 100% BP per Mori (needs build around Moris to get more than 2), and Iri giving 100% per Mori (doesn't need the build since it unlocks death hook Moris).
Corrective Action -Make this not stack. If 2 people run HyperFocus+CorrectiveAction, they both just don't attempt skillchecks and get Greats all day stacking up HyperFocus.
Blood Rush - Do you have to still be healthy to use this? Is it just meant to be a 2nd Exhaustion perk if tunneled? If it works while injured, good change. If you need to be healthy, it is unusably bad.
Quick Gambit - Might be too powerful. Maybe add a downside that T1 Bloodlust accrues on you 5s faster (15→10s)? That would naturally counteract it.
Lucky Star -Why also get rid of the auras? Just keep the Auras.
Leverage - What about Killers turbo-tunneling? This would just empower them further. Not sure what I'd do with this, but this ain't it chief.
Machine Learning - Maybe drop timer to 45s pre-emptively? This might be crazy powerful, but it also might be garbage map dependent.
Deathbound - I LOVE MY DEATHBOUND AND NOW I LOVE IT MORE!
Blood Echo - Does this set to 30s, or add 30s. I would like it if it adds 30s, not a big fan if this sets to 30s. Often times you currently run this with Mindbreaker to lock in a 60s exhaustion timer, so the CD doesn't really matter.
Hex: Crowd Control - Nice scary effect.
SM - This is the best alternative to actually deleting her (can we still have that option on the table though?)
Edit: Minor spelling mistakes
Edit 2: More thoughts on Mori.
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@caipt said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3796515#Comment_3796515
Except you can get to any loop you like after being unhooked since you get a protected 44m radius from the hook to travel, or the killer hits you and you get even more range. It doesnt matter if the survivor got downed in or out of a deadzone, because they will always find their way out of it. Then they'll go down at whatever loop they ended up at, ds, and continue on. This is coming from my experience using the perk as well as hypotheticals.
Is a Survivor invisible, silent, no scratch marks nor blood off hook? Huntress can simply land the hatchet 0.1s after they get unhooked? So they don't get 44m for free, they get 0m for free. Now I would 100% agree and be with you if they made Survivors invisible and invulnerable for 10s off hook, but this isn't the case. So Huntress hits off hook, but we'll be generous and say 1s, so ~4.5m, then speed boost for ~13.5m, meanwhile the Huntress moved 1s of windup and 2s of cooldown for ~10.5m. She is only 7.5m away, which is also roughly 2s DS stun distance, and thus gets downed. You aren't making it out anywhere.
@NerfDHalready said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3796844#Comment_3796844
"tanking" a hit with otr, so the 90% (lol) of cases isn't the topic at hand.
idk why would it would matter whether it's macro or micro but i'll go along. you said you deserve to lose if you play worse than your opponent, when we were talking about a situation where a survivor "opens them up for tunneling". so playing better, having better macro skill would be leaving them if they are in a strong area, and this means they get away with tanking a hit with otr, and in fact not opening themselves up for tunneling. and this means you contradict with yourself, the hittank is free and the skillful play from the killer can be leaving them and letting them get away with it.
If someone is turbo tunneling someone else with OTR, they still tanked an OTR hit. I would ask you be more specific when describing scenarios, because you appear to create a vast story in your mind, and say 'blue' expecting everyone to know specifically what you are envisioning. You define hit tank far far differently than I would, so if you could offer a Dictionary of 'NerfDHalready' it would be greatly appreciated.
I can't argue against redefinitions like this, because I can't read your mind. But wouldn't 'opens them up for tunneling' definitionally make them not be in a strong area? The idea is say you come back to Shack basement, and you hit both running up the stairs with effective bodyblocks, then you can tunnel the OTR user, or chase the rescuer. Alternatively, you arrive late, and the OTR user is blocking the doorframe to protect the other person leaving through the pallet. You can still just hit the OTR doorframe and get a chase there. I'm confused where apparently someone is crossmapping 20s to interrupt a chase that somehow isn't leading to a down already, and still not securing a down after the hit. Every time this happens to me, either the next person is getting downed already, making them waste their time, or the OTR hit just wastes another 12s since the other person is still cornered at a loop due to how I set myself up.