mizark3
mizark3
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If anything 2v8 proves the opposite, that Huntress doesn't need any buffs. The only match I've lost as Huntress was with a Wraith who forgot his brain in his other pair of pants, and I've even won 2-3 matches with Trapper as my partner (while playing Huntress).
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As BNP haters have said before, removing max charges is ultra omega super duper powerful! It makes Pain Res go from removing 18s to removing 16s!!!!!!! /s
Naw to be real, its a grief perk that is only good if you were being tunneled, and can now sneak off into basement on death hook and waste 60s of your time for permanent gen time. -
I would say it is less that Escapist is strong/OP, and more that the other 3 classes are unplayably bad in comparison. They should be nearly as useful, but instead they are a joke (maybe with an exception for Guide's 3% Great boost).
Also I'm glad I had plenty of practice against old MfT, people pretend that it was impossible to beat, but it just requires more skill/knowledge to learn the new breakpoints.
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3767597#Comment_3767597
Any amount of gens above 1 is impacted by the feature, so I don't know why you'd only care at 5/3.
Because that bug won't affect last generator. If there are 2 gens left, then there is only 1 gen is left on reality and it's harder to patrol.
Even number of gens is exactly same as lower odd number.
1 = 2
3 = 4
But even number makes it easier for survivors to finish those gens, because they have more options (often safer)
If a Survivor gives up, that means there are 3 other Survivors forced to play out a doomed match. This makes it possible, not matter how improbable, which is a good thing. Otherwise, everyone should hard quit on sight of Nurse/SM because 1 other person did. It is completely in control of Killer to kill a Survivor.
That's only when it happens at 5 gens left. It will be very easy for group to 99 a gen at 2 gens left, or 2 gens at 4 gens left. Killer is without a chance to stop it.
We can freely give killer best 3-gen setup in his life, but as long we have 1 gen outside, it means nothing. We just 99 and wait for someone to die.
Survivors get rewarded for letting teammate die on hook. In no world should that be rewarded.
While it could be abused, a few simple tweaks (like 60s delay after death before coming into effect) would solve those flaws and be net beneficial for the game.
No it wouldn't. It's going to make the game worse for everyone first moment survivors realize how to abuse it.
Surprise, 60 seconds waiting in corner is easier than trying to finish full gen. Who would have thought?
5 becomes an effective 3 with 1 kill, and 3 becomes an effective 2 with 1 kill (assuming it adds 1 gen completion PER gen pop per kill). It reduces the amount of gens needed in all circumstances. That's why I'm still confused why you'd only care at 5/3. It still matters at evens and odds with the exception of 1 gen remaining.
Survivors are setting themselves up for failure if someone is giving up early to make the game a 3 gen 3 Survivor match. The flow state for Killer is 1 on hook, 1 in chase, 1 going for the rescue/heal, and IF there is a 4th they pump gens. In this 3v1, the Survivors are in a death spiral.
The 60s delay would prevent the 99'd gen(s) from being an issue. The Killer would have time to patrol the gens, kick them, and look for people hovering around them. I could run across my 4 gens, kick each (above 50%) once, then return to the 1 or 2 99'd gens and not have a problem finding the Survs there. If they 99'd 2+ gens, then it didn't even impact my ability to win since they needed to go out of the way to 99 2+ different gens instead of simply popping them to power the gates.
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3767541#Comment_3767541
If I hardcore tunnel, then I just need to make sure to finish the survivor at either 5, or 3 gens left. Then I don't care about the feature.
Worst is when I on purpose try to kill someone later, usually around 2 gens left. I can't do that anymore with this feature.
So if I want to have good chance to win, I am forced to kill sooner than I would like with this feature, which is 3 gens left. At 2 gens left, I have to track who is on dead hook and always slug them until I get to 1 gen left.
And if survivor decides to give up, then there is simply nothing I can do about it. If they do it smart, I lost the game and it was completely outside of my control as the killer.
That system would be terrible and easily abused.
Any amount of gens above 1 is impacted by the feature, so I don't know why you'd only care at 5/3.
If you purposely want to kill someone early, then the feature should impact it. That's kinda the whole point.
If you want to have a good chance to win, simply get 8 hooks before killing anyone. I do it all the time. The only time it punishes you is in the example I laid out, 2 gens remain when you get the 9th hook. Slug until a gen pops if that is so impossible to deal with getting a 2k instead of a 3k+.
If a Survivor gives up, that means there are 3 other Survivors forced to play out a doomed match. This makes it possible, not matter how improbable, which is a good thing. Otherwise, everyone should hard quit on sight of Nurse/SM because 1 other person did. It is completely in control of Killer to kill a Survivor.
While it could be abused, a few simple tweaks (like 60s delay after death before coming into effect) would solve those flaws and be net beneficial for the game. Killers might get a couple 2ks instead of 3ks as the worst consequence.
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3767329#Comment_3767329
That sounds really frustrating for everyone...
Imagine dying because random survivor popped a gen at moment you were about to get hooked etc.
It also promotes slugging a lot as a killer, so I make sure I have survivor ready to die as soon there is 1 gen left, but they are kinda "impossible" for me to hook/kill at 2 gens left. Just don't bring basekit unbreakable again...
Then survivors can 99 gen at 2 gens left, someone gives up on hook and they skip last gen... What a fun experience for the killer
I mean if the Killer was hardcore tunneling, then this just spits it back in their own face. The bug was an autocorrecting mechanism. The Killer ruined 1 person's experience intentionally, and now the remaining 3 aren't caught in the Killer's ego trip anymore.
I've only lost 1 game due to the bug, because I play for 8 hooks before my first kill (and it was only a loss in the sense that 10 hooks 2 kills is a loss). It requires the Killer to draw 'first blood' of frustration, and it only frustrates the person who frustrated someone else. On paper, that is a perfect system. I've already given my initial thoughts on how to tweak it, but it was surprisingly good as it was.
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Unbreakable needs to be basekit (from the start). It takes 1s to hook someone, and being bledout over 4 minutes is the most degenerate playstyle. Auras being revealed shouldn't work when 3+ people are dead/slugged.
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@Testoviron said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3767143#Comment_3767143
>the next group has nothing to do with it
80% of survivors are like that. Taking it out on a random group of survs has a very high likelihood of them getting their just desserts.I mean this logic can be used in reverse also, 80% of Killers are bleedout stinky people so I better BM every Killer. If we were to go by the game stats, Killer wins 1/3 or 1/2 more than Survivors, so it would track that 1/3 or 1/2 more Killers are stinky, so a Survivor would be more justified in BMing. Alternatively we can stop BMing in advance, and only fight fire with fire. Only wait for the opposition to draw first blood, and then feel free to respond equally in turn.
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@Crowman said:
If you want to balance the game around hooks, then survivors should get multiple hook states upon hook if too many gens are completed.
Yep, once the Survivors have double or triple the gens as hooks, hooks can count as an extra state. Once someone is fully dead, gens count as extra equal to the number dead.
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This would only work if the MMR loss was attributed to how many hooks you got. If the baby Mikaela took 9 hooks before her death, she should probably have more MMR loss than the Alan who runs the Killer for 4 straight minutes, and only died to endgame collapse.
Also a hybrid system might be better, with 2nd stage being shared, but first and last stage are unique to the Survivor. This would mean that baby Mikaela would take 6 hooks before her death instead of 9 (Her first, universal 1-4, and her death hook). This would also ensure everyone with hook perks still have a chance to use them.
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I only got 2 matches so far (1 each side) and have to hard disagree. It was a free and easy win for Killer both times. The trick is to drop chase if someone is remotely decent. There are 7 other players (who probably are horrible at the game), so just chase them instead. If you are foolish enough to let 1 good Survivor run you for 8 gens, you deserve to lose.
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@Starrseed said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3766307#Comment_3766307
I would say hook states are comparable to gens being done. Both are the respective teams way to end the game and no one can do anything about it when it happned.
Well the gen bug was comparing 3 hook states to 1 gen. That would mean a normal game ends at 1 gen (12 hooks at 4 gens). That would mean it would be physically impossible for Survivor at that point. Plus that isn't even taking into account how the game functions with 4 Survivors (balanced-ish) to 3 Survivors (free win for Killer).
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@Bri_lhosa said:
Pleaaase, we need to talk about Ghost Face and why people who are on the hook or in dyng state keep revealing him :(
I mean, I love this game, but I think it's too survivor side. We play against swf and that alone is VERY disadvantageous. He NEEDS some modifications, WE ALL LOVE GHOST FACE :(It is good that people on hook and in the dying state can reveal Ghosty because that disincentivizes campface playstyles. What he needs is more rewards for Marked downs. The Iri cam is a perfectly designed add-on, as it gives a pseudo Floods of Rage proc every down, which can set you up for your next stalk and down, whether it be a gen interruption, or catching a would be rescuer. If we were to buff Ghosty by add-ons, he should get more perk effects on Marked downs (like Gift of Pain for example).
If we were to buff Ghosty's basekit, I'd say punishing a reveal would be a decent path. If we gave an 8% hindered for the Killer Instinct Duration, that works best. It is mutually exclusive with being Marked, so you can't Expose+Hinder, it allows for an additional punishment for greeding not healing, it also buffs a useless add-on that extends the Killer Instinct duration on reveal, finally it is enough to slow the Survs down, but not also prevent fast vaults.
Buffing the wrong aspects of Ghosty's kit could push people towards more chaseface and campface styled gameplay, which is the wrong direction.
@Langweilig said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3766259#Comment_3766259
Agree with you.
I wish he wouldn‘t loose the stalk on people and his ability on hitting people. An addon for making all forms of revealing him slower would be cool too (instead of only when someone is hooked/downed)
I'm mixed on this. Combining both reveal add-ons to be a universal longer reveal might be fine. Losing stalk on hit though is one of the few counterplay aspects people can take against Ghosty though. It is risky, because then you are against a stealth Killer while injured. At the same time, maybe it lowers the mark by 50% instead of 100%. That way 99's don't lose all their progress, and some counterplay still remains.
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@Starrseed said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3765886#Comment_3765886
The problem is no one would be okey with this if it was reverse.
If a vug made a comeback mechanic for the killer where the survs loose two hook states when there gets a gen done before the killer can hook no one would want that as a feature to pace the game better
We do have a similar mechanic that is working in favor of Killer. The anti-facecamp bar disables in endgame. (Also I have recommended a lesser version of NOED in endgame if you reach endgame with no kills.)
To address your 2nd point, it wouldn't be comparable for a double hook state on the first gen. The Survivors don't get multiple gens until they are fully dead AND leave the lobby. It would be more comparable to have hooks instakill in endgame (regardless of hook state), which I wouldn't strictly be opposed to (if there was some form of basekit UB to disincentivize slugging).
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@Neaxolotl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3762439#Comment_3762439
Calling a game breaking bug "good for the game" is quite funny
A gamebreaking bug fixing a design flaw that has plagued the game from the onset is even more hilarious and on brand for BHVR.
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@Jim_Tonic said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3763372#Comment_3763372
problem is majority of people find the certain killers unfun the moment they get sacrificed by them. or even downed. I can play litteraly every killer its always at least 1 person that rage quits on hook..
Its not niche scenario or "certain killers" its people not accepting losses.The difference is that it isn't the same person each time. Killa Whale did a survey of his audience a while ago, and the average people only like playing against ~60% of the Killers.
https://imgur.com/a/pNsOfayThe thing is, you have to roll the dice 4 total times, to figure out if someone doesn't like the Killer. That gives you the Killer unique percentages seen in the bottom of the picture.
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@Peanits said:
We definitely see the frustration it causes and have shared it with the team, and we agree that it doesn't feel great to have teammates abandon you. I'm afraid I don't have anything more concrete to reveal at the moment, but I'd like to be open about it regardless.
It's a tricky problem to tackle since even if the option was removed, there are other ways to quickly get out of the match, such as running to the Killer after being unhooked. Ultimately if someone refuses to play the rest of the match, we can't force them (in a literal sense, they could walk away from their system and still leave the team one player down).
That's not to say that it can't help, of course - making it more inconvenient can be the nudge some people need to finish out the match - though it wouldn't get rid of it entirely.
Hopefully this sheds a little light on it, and please by all means keep the suggestions coming!
I think minimizing the worst of experiences would prevent people from reaching that breakpoint at this frequency. I can't tell you how many soloq teammates I've seen afk or DC or Kobe on hook against Nurse/SM just because they don't find the Killer fun.
I honestly think Killer bans are the best solution. The lobby leader has their ban list setup (so SWFs just has to tell their friend which bans to use), and prevent the worst Killers for that group from showing up. Some people hate laggy ranged Killers getting hits through walls. Some people hate Stealth Killers or Spirit because the only counter is audio cues, and they might have hearing damage/deafness. Some people hate whatever the current patch's sweatlord Killers are, because those are responsible for 80% of the bleedout for the 4ks (despite being only 5 Killers typically). Personally, I dislike Killers that punish you for other Survivors failing to use the counterplay correctly, like Myers/Plague/Oni/Xeno.
When people have their 0/10 Killer not show up, they have far far far less of a reason to reach that breaking point to give up on sight. The exception being a quit on the last game of the night, which this solution doesn't address.
I detailed a more complete version 2 years ago here on the forums, and the funny thing is, many of the previous suggestions I made from that overarching document (of 10 different major categories) were adapted in some shape or form.
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@YamamuraVideoRentals said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3763262#Comment_3763262
It's not 5*90 seconds. Three survivors can all be working on different generators while one is being chased, which means 90 seconds to compete three generators. And I'm not even counting the time when the 4th person hasn't been found yet and could be working on a generator too!
After those three survivors complete their generators, they can move on to others, and potentially crank out two more in another 90 seconds. Imagine, the game being over in 180 seconds! It's never quite this short though, because it takes some time to find and travel to the generators, and then there's of course slowdown perks and the killer running up to disrupt.. and then the time it takes to unhook and heal.
Then again, I'm not accounting for speed perks like deja vu, prove thyself, and toolboxes….
But yeah. Let's say a match could theoretically end in 200 seconds if the gens are cranked out fast enough. When they fly by that fast, it's no wonder killers think they have to camp, tunnel, and slug extensively. But, if we could not only extend the time it takes to complete generators, and also cripple the camping and tunneling strategies, overall dbd would be better off, and I think both sides would have more fun.
It's not 5*90s - I accounted for that in the math "105s*3 for 315s" so the first camp gives the Survivors ~315 gen seconds, with an average 105 real time seconds per Surv. Deadlock delays this timer for the 25*4, and No Way Out delays this timer for the 36s (real time). I laid it all out, so did you just skim the post?
Not accounting for the time when the 4th(/1st) person hasn't been found yet - That's what Lethal does, account for all Survivors. This only doesn't work against a full lobby of Distortion, because you can still get information from a 2 1 split as 1 person having Distortion, and the Distortion rat being with the 1 Survivor.
3 Survs finish their gens and get to work on more - Only 2 are working gens at that point, because even the quickest gen (90s) delays another gen with Deadlock to take 115s, and the third would be on hook because the Bubba can seek out a gen completion Surv, or a Deadlocked Surv, whichever their game sense directs them towards. Again, accounted for in my math.
Your post not accounting for gen speed boosts - Mine gave an acknowledgement: "The only way for Survivors to beat this is by running juicy toolboxes, or hitting a metric ton of Great checks.". To be fair, I didn't mention perk speed boosts, but most of them are so bad that people don't bother running them. Only BTL on a juicy toolbox is really worth the time for a single reload in this scenario. (The 2nd and 3rd reloads are good if you are combining the perk with another locker perk, or need to hide in a locker to avoid the Killer while reloading the toolbox.) Deja Vu saves ~5s per gen, so even in my estimate that only saves 25 total seconds, well within the final 76s - 36s from NWO, or 40 gen seconds left after the final camp death, leaving 15 gen seconds instead.
If we could extend gen times Killers wouldn't feel the need to camp/tunnel - This is false. I played under the old 80s gens, and anecdotally there was far less tunneling and camping. What happens is skilled players don't care if they lose as they have nothing to prove, and unskilled players do anything they can to win because they have everything to prove. That means a realistic 2000 MMR Survivor is dying to a 1650 MMR Killer trying to rescue into a facecamping Bubba/perma T3 Myers/other instadown Killer. Eventually the actual 2000 MMR Survivor and actual 1650 MMR Killer swap MMRs to have a 1650 Surv and 2000 MMR facecamping Bubba. In addition, since methodology is ignored in MMR, only K/E, we also get Survivors artificially inflating their MMR with Meta loadouts, and lose to equal skill Killers who run non-Meta loadouts (as in my case of >74% winrate before gens are popped).
Same issue with a Killer who camped out an extra free kill, artificially inflating their MMR, and thus fighting better and better opponents. These better opponents don't care about escaping, until they reach the tippy top of MMR, where both sides are sweating as if their Mom's life was held in the balance for the $5 Subway card they are fighting over. At that point, weak Killers and Survivors are actually going against players who understand AND use the counters to camping/tunneling/genrushing (aka genb4fren), and think they need to put more weight on the crutch and break it, resulting in more losses.
Just like when camping 3-gen Killers complained about getting hit by the mechanic, not realizing they were crutching on 3-genning as their only means of winning. I saw people on these forums post videos kicking a gen with no gen perks while they could see the Survivor 6m away, and wondering why the Survivor got so much distance, and the gen hit the regression limit (after the 5th time of them doing the foolish kick while Survivor visible, and 3 non-foolish regression events).
Aside not responding to a specific claim - One thing I didn't explain/account for, is travel/chase time for both sides. Some maps you can run 5s to get to another gen, or 20s. Some maps you can chain every pallet together and actually survive the first chase long enough to make the strategy useless. Sometimes a proper Lethal Pursuer play negates the Survivor's chances entirely (as you can get a double down or more and camp both or only one). These roughly equal each other in equal skilled matchups. Sometimes you get the map with bad gen spawns, and sometimes you get the god loops chained in your favor. Typically Lethal carries Killers hard if they have enough gamesense, almost more than NWO, and sometimes, you simply NEED Bamboozle to prevent a free triple vault window. Using all the tools appropriately is what made me able to consider it a 99% winrate (3k+) strategy.
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3762994#Comment_3762994
Before and now with Bubba, against team (SWF) that notice and accept what is going on, the result is going to be either 1k, or usually 2k. Even more so after Deadlock nerf, because survivors are not so punished if they are not playing around it.
Worst case scenario is bubba camping inside 3-gen... That's an issue for survivors.
Also most survivors are stubborn and refuse accept someone is best to get sacrificed...
Well I mean that's the point of the Deadlock+No Way Out Build. You can simply feign that you are playing normally long enough that it no longer becomes possible to have more than 1 person escape. Also if the first down is quick enough, you don't even need to fake it.
The raw gen time is 5*90s, or minimum 450s, this can be extended further by hooking the 2nd Survivor near a partial gen, or 0-89s extra added, for an average of 45s, now up to 495s. Deadlock adds an extra 25*4s, for 100s extra, and sets us to 595s. Finally with No Way Out, it will add minimum 36s from 2 hooks. That brings us to our final total timer of 631s.
From 631s, 3 Survivors get to work the first hook uninterrupted for 90-120s each, depending on if they genb4fren or check for a rescue. That subtracts an average 105s*3 for 315s from the total timer down to 316s. Then the 2nd Survivor is camped over 120s, giving the last 2 Survivors 120s*2 240s (assuming now they learned and the Killer doesn't leave), giving us 76s remaining (36s of which is NWO). The third is now hooked against 1 Survivor, which can't rescue against a Bubba. It is either a trade, or a double kill. The only way for Survivors to beat this is by running juicy toolboxes, or hitting a metric ton of Great checks.
This isn't even taking into account making the 3v1 a death spiral, where Bubba downs and hooks the 3rd Survivor by the time the 4th Survivor rescues the 2nd. This makes all the Survivors either die to hook stage attrition, or by having 2 on hooks at the same time and the final unable to pump gens fast enough.
In my soloq experience, any Bubba intentionally camping gets a minimum 2k. That is like you said though, (restated my way) because people have basic human empathy and want their fellow players to enjoy the game.
Now part of this camping strategy uses tricks like going after the 'stealthy' Survivor from Lethal Pursuer, (the one who crouches behind a rock on TR) by walking diagonally nearby until they are effectively deadzoned. Bamboozle ensures no chases (be it a failed start, or subsequent chases) take meaningful time. You also don't literally facecamp (or chokepoint camp now) from the onset, you fake it being a real match to lure in a rescuer or two, making it seem like you are only there because they are. All these tricks combined ensure a minimum 3k in 99% of matches.
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3760508#Comment_3760508
If you can't win against tunneling and camping, then you are playing out of your skill set. Take the loss and let that MMR drop so you get worse killer where you don't get downed in 10 seconds.
But saying SWF just get ruined fun and vibes is hilarious…
I mean I purposely facecamped (before the change) as Bubba with the name "Camp Experiment" and won (3k+) every match with old Deadlock, No Way Out, Lethal Pursuer, and Bamboozle (to ensure a quick enough 1st down). It might still work if I camped chokepoints instead, but also the Deadlock nerf from 30s→25s was most certainly warranted. I was already winning more than 3/4 of my normal (mostly Ghosty, but plenty of variety like Myers, Legion, Dredge, Blight, and more) matches, so my MMR was already well within the top-MMR softcap, so before the facecamping change it was uncounterable (by the Survivors in my ~25 games). Arguably it could still be done with choke points, or slugging a would-be rescuer and dropping them under hook to prevent the facecamp progression.
Tunneling is a bit different, because often you lose due to tunneling because the team is bodyblocking instead of pumping gens, or rescuing 10-15s on hook instead of 45-55s.
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@k3ijus said:
4-5 hooks at 5 generators, i hate giving up but at that point why even bother playing, eventually the killer will get two kills and now its just a game of hide and seek, praying the killer gets bored and dc’s.
And on the other end is when there will be 2 hooks at 1 generator left, there literally feels like you cant win and just secure a 1k by the most boring means possible.
Why is the game so inbalanced? I feel like theres never games where endgame is actually a threat, or having insane pressure on you at 1 generator, or two;Its always hopeless or a utterly boring win
The largest reason for imbalanced matches are auto-fill lobbies. When someone leaves the lobby (because they see 2 med-kits or a P100) then that gap must be filled by the quickest Killer found. That means ANYONE can show up in that slot, be it far more, or far less skilled than the Survivors gathered together for the original Killer.
I think they should implement a soft DC penalty for backing out of lobbies. Every 2-3 lobbies you back out of counts as 1 DC from a match. That way you can still lobby shop once or twice (if you want an Adept and you see 4 event Toolboxes for example), or back out to join your friends (in this game or another) without incurring a penalty.
@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3762676#Comment_3762676
Hatch is a bad mechanic. It's motivation to keep going because it's a completely free escape.
Hatch is a mediocre mechanic now, OG Hatch was a bad mechanic, Pre-Mikaela Hatch was a good mechanic, and Post-Mikaela Keys with Pre-Mikaela Hatch would be perfect.
Hatch counts as a tie, so whatever side was winning (which is typically Killer) still wins the match, regardless of escape count. It doesn't feel good to have 3 jump out a hatch, but it also doesn't feel good to be tunneled out, so there is counter-balance to incentivize better gameplay for everyone, and to keep any match from becoming hopeless (on the Survivor side).
There should be a similar catch-up mechanic for underperforming Killers, and I've frequently suggested a lesser basekit NOED. That is, if you reach endgame with 0 kills, you get NOED that disables the exposed (but keeps the totem lit and keeps the haste) as long as there is 1 Survivor downed/hooked/dead. Forcing Survivors to play around getting the rescue for the 4E gives both sides a chance of taking what they have, or trying for more, and if the Survs rescue without cleansing NOED, then it reactivates on unhook (until someone gets downed again).
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Sure, every 1 minute of someone's time you waste is considered 1 bannable offense and it rounds up as long as you reach 15s. Exit gate teabags can be 1 or 2 ctrl's then walk out without counting. A Bleedout is 4 minutes, so that counts as 4 bannable offenses per person bledout! It solves the problem for everyone!
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If this is true, unironically I think this might be good for the game. It discourages tunneling, and rewards players to pump gens no matter how dire the circumstances are. It also doesn't quite work with SWF because you typically watch your teammates after you die.
The only problem I could see is intentionally leaving a gen 99'd in case someone gets killed, to cheese a 4 gen escape on purpose. Also once people know that they need to fully leave, SWFs can still leave to lobby and ask their friends to alt-tab and start a Discord stream if they NEED to watch.
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I think gen efficiency is a problem, but in a different way. Grouping up on gens is less effective than soloing. Grouping up on gens is also more beneficial for the Killer since they get to displace 2+ Survs for the cost of 1 gen being interrupted. If we want to give the Killer the greater reward (interrupt a multi-person gen), we need it encouraged more.
As far as gen timers and slowdown, I had little issue winning (the majority of my games) back with 80s gens and no CA's for DS, so I think it ultimately is a playstyle issue. I haven't changed my playstyle (aim for 8 hook before kill), and it has only gotten easier. As a result of it getting easier, the Survivors panic and have to sweat to stand a chance, so in return I see more and more juicy items. The juicy items games basically mean I have a chance at a loss, and the itemless games are basically free wins. MMR should account for items (for Survs, and add-ons for Killers) and perks in the calculation.
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2/3 matches for me. Lerys with a double pop (that very well could have been a synchronized double pop), and Macmillain H-map with a triple gen pop.
The Macmillain one had 2 living Survivors, and 3 remaining gens. I was patrolling 5 gens (with Singularity's Biopods to know for sure), so it counted 1 gen as 3 completions. It might have been 2 remaining gens, but I'm 99% certain this was a triple pop. (I was letting the 2 cake offering Survivors leave, but I wanted to tag them with a Slip-Stream first).
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3760265#Comment_3760265
Because we already are. If someone dodges the Killer's attack, they countered them. If someone wipes the Hag trap, they countered them. If someone mindgames someone, they got countered.
Those are basekit things, that's something you can easily balance, because it's in every game.
You can't really balance the killer properly when there is such a big variable as flashlight counter, which is not going to be in every game.
Imagine if EMP wasn't a thing and you would need a flashlight to counter Singularity. That would be terrible to play against. That's why you have this as killer specific items, which you can then easily balance, because it is in every game.Most killers simply doesn't need an item counter. They are nowhere near strong to warrant this change.
Yeah, maybe it should be an item as powerful as all others. Maybe we shouldn't have Medkits and Toolboxes miles ahead of everything else. Maybe Keys and Maps shouldn't be useless also.
I really don't consider flashlights and flashbang to be a weak items. Issue is you usually need at least some cooperation with your teammates, which soloQ doesn't have.
Only hurts chaseface as I said.
Why exactly chaseface needs to be nerfed tho? You think it is stronger than standard ghostface gameplay? I would say it's already weaker, so what is logic behind nerfing it?
P1- Hag traps used to be ranged cleanseable by flashlight, and that was the only quiet counter to them. I think they could figure something out along the lines of that for Killers. Nemesis still has his power countered by Flashlights (blinding zombies), so we didn't even fully remove Lightburn mechanics. We could make Zombies immune to clickies, and only be killable with pallets, but I think it adds more fun/variety/depth to keep Zombie blinds in.
P2- I don't consider Flashbangs weak, but I do consider Flashlights near useless (both as Killer and Survivor). Flashbangs/Firecrackers can get past the 'look at the wall' counter inherent in Flashlight saves, so they actually can be useful imo.
P3- I think it is good to discourage chaseface, because it is a noob trap that causes people to underrate Ghosty, and underperform. If it is so bad, maybe people will finally start to use their brain and use Ghostface instead. As long as it remains 'good enough', people will continuously play him wrong.
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3760246#Comment_3760246
It would make no meaningful difference against Ghostfaces who actually play correctly, only chasefaces.
Not all maps allow you to stalk from big distance in some small angle. If you would come up to survivor, because of flashlight you are not even able to stalk, because you can't look at them and they are easily going to get you out of power even if you try to hide your body. That sounds terrible to me.
Dull Merchant would actually be interactable to a meaningful degree in soloq.
Funny to try hide it behind soloQ :D because I forgot flashlight is such a common item for soloQ players.
Plus many Killers can have things as simple as Myers not being able to stalk through a Flashlight
Which is also true for ghostface, yet you would want to add additional effect on top of it for some reason for him.
Trapper doesn't need to be disarmed, just 5s disabled after 2s of light.
Oh right, because bear traps are light sensitive… This doesn't make any sense at all.
"Hey look a trap you took time putting down, let me use my flashlight to run over it while it gets active soon after, so you can't." What a fun gameplay experience for one of already weakest killers in the game. What an idea…Plague also has the problem of being an ultimate 3-gen Killer still through the regression limit.
Plague an ultimate 3-gen killer? What? :D
Also this has nothing to do with 3-gen. Puke on gens is one of ways how to spread her power, if flashlight denies it completely, then she is screwed. It's not like it is going to work only during 3-gen, is it?
And since when Plague are 3-genning, I have never seen a single Plague holding 3-gen. It's not really doing anything, if I stay injured. Not really difficult to play against killer without a power and she needs to travel around the map for fountains of any survivor cleansed.Also lobby shopping is directly responsible for ruining matchmaking, so as long as people are emboldened enough to admit to being part of the problem, I have to recommend partial DC penalties for lobby drops.
Maybe don't make it worse?
No item should be a direct counter to any killers power. So killer is not punished for survivors using it and survivors are not punished for not bringing it against the killer.
Why the hell would I willingly play the killer against this?Plus we apparently are forgetting that with 8s base on a clicky, and 2s being the norm for interactions, you realistically could only get 3 max disables in normal cases.
You can find them in chest, you have perks/addons for longer duration, you have perk to recharge, you can have multiple of them in team (up to 4) etc.
(Also I can't tell if you had a Freudian slip when using a different name for the clicky machine or what...)
Yeah, happens when I write on mobile. That's actually very funny name tho. Fleshlight :D Sounds like something from Undead in Warcraft.
I main Ghostface, you can make many many many long-distance odd angles work, and even short ones can just be cornerstalked. Only hurts chaseface as I said.
Soloq Flashies - Yeah, maybe it should be an item as powerful as all others. Maybe we shouldn't have Medkits and Toolboxes miles ahead of everything else. Maybe Keys and Maps shouldn't be useless also.
For Ghosty it can be as simple as doubling the reveal speed while being lit up. That only hurts chasefaces, and does nothing to real Ghostfaces.
Trapper Realism argument… in the game about an Eldritch Horror alternate dimension spider which grants all Killers their powers, having their powers be affected by what hurts that Eldritch Horror… right. Plus, they have to audibly and visibly and slowly delay the trap, and that doesn't even guarantee the Trapper will get hit by it. Remember, 5s*4.6m/s=23m, so a Trapper needs to be >23m away from the trap when they delay it in order for it to hit Trapper. That isn't something that can be done mid-chase, and if someone else is doing it, then you now have gen slowdown+2 chase opportunities.
Plague - I've played as and against enough Plague to know how annoying she can be when intending to play this way. I'm moreso saying she is underrated as a 3-gen Killer, and most people don't suspect how effective she is at being able to lock areas down (when she puts her mind to it). That is why in the edit I said to allow the Brown add-on to bypass this, so that way campy Plague can camp, and normal Plague has to risk flashlights or full pukes instead of holding soloq lobbies hostage for 40s before the team is willing to touch ANYTHING.
Lobby Shopping - Maybe we should make the game better and prevent lobby shopping, because it is a detriment to the game. This doesn't FORCE people to lobby shop, it reveals people with low/poor/selfish morals who will lobby shop for any advantage.
No item should be a direct counter to a power - I think you posted this before I added the clarifying edit. It shouldn't hard shut down powers, just provide something to counteract. I'm not saying a Flashlights should count as extra Vaccines against Nemmy/Wesker, I'm saying they should slow/pause infection. I'm not saying a Flashlights should serve as an EMP replacement, but as a soft 12-15s stun on a biopod compared to the EMP 45s (and not work against Slipstreams). I'm not saying Flashlights should delete Hatchets from Huntress' inventory, but maybe disable a locker reload on that specific locker for 15s. I'm not saying Flashlights should unload Slingers gun, but maybe increase the decay rate by 20% while lit up. The basekit counter should exist, then flashlights should offer a slightly better (non Killer unique item) version of that.
Why play against this - Because we already are. If someone dodges the Killer's attack, they countered them. If someone wipes the Hag trap, they countered them. If someone mindgames someone, they got countered. If someone gets a pallet/flashlight/flashbang save, they countered them. If someone pumps a gen before the Killer gets to land PGTW on it, they countered them. If someone cleansed at a Fountain (at the right time to prevent a snowball), they countered Plague. In any exchange between 2 people, the winner countered the loser. That is every VS multiplayer game.
Find/perk better items - And they can find/perk kit out a juicier Medkit or Toolbox. All items should be on equal footing (at the same rarity tiers), so a Purple Flashlight shouldn't be garbage or god tier compared to the Purple Medkit or Purple Toolbox or Purple Key. Keys are currently arguably more useless than Maps, and Flashlights are more or less power crept by Flashbangs. Also the current potential for 4 Medkits/Toolboxes is already a far greater doom, especially if you see 4 event Toolboxes (so you know its the juicy 32 charge box). Basically Flashlights only work with Killer interaction, but Medkits and Toolboxes are strongest without Killer interaction. With a Killer interaction tool, I know I can just outskill the Survivor, but I can't bother/bully the other 2-3 at the same time, so Medkits and Toolboxes will always be a greater threat (at least to me/my playstyle).
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3759909#Comment_3759909
That is a really bad idea. You would basically have to bring a Flashlight to every game and Franklins would just destroy any Survivor Team.
And having only a limited amount of counters will make Killers even stronger the longer the match goes. This is already the case that the Killer gets stronger the longer the match is going on, if the Survivors start being unable to do counterplay, it will be even worse. Which would probably lead to some really unhealthy and boring gameplay, where Killers just try to stall as long as possible so that the Batteries of the Flashlights are gone and then they win with their uncounterable abilities.
I think Hag with Flashlights still being able to burn away traps would be the perfect example of a balanced system. Enough basekit counterplay, with a 5s crouch up and a 2s animation wipe, vs a simple 2s shine at the cost of 'ammo'. Plus most uses of flashlights would slow you down far too much to be reasonable in chase, barring everyone bringing Alan Wake's Perk to move faster while clicking.
I'm not saying that every Killer needed a Lightburn to delete a Pig headtrap, but maybe something like glow a box to pause the timer while solving at that box (for the next ~15s). Simple things like that would be great across every Killer.
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3759909#Comment_3759909
Lol, no... That's one of worst ideas I have seen in while.
Most killers are simply not that strong to justify such a nerf. It would make fleshlight groups unplayable for them.
With this change lock items in lobby, so I can just lobby shop with those killers and never play against it. I will gladly take them on with Blight, or Oni. But I would refuse to play Skully, or Ghostface against this.
It would make no meaningful difference against Ghostfaces who actually play correctly, only chasefaces. Dull Merchant would actually be interactable to a meaningful degree in soloq. Plus many Killers can have things as simple as Myers not being able to stalk through a Flashlight (which basically is what currently is the case). Trapper doesn't need to be disarmed, just 5s disabled after 2s of light. That still would prevent delaying a trap on the opposite side of a vault point.
Plague also has the problem of being an ultimate 3-gen Killer still through the regression limit. Letting a Flashlight only cure objects would be a perfectly fine form of Lightburn. (Edit: I can see why someone might disagree when I only gave a few sentences to explain. When I said shine to cure, I meant only on objects against Plague, not counting flashlights as a bonus Vaccine for Wesker/Nemmy, or even curing a broken Surv from Plague Infection. Although maybe pausing infection progress for working a lit up gen [except against the Brown Meme add-on].)
Also lobby shopping is directly responsible for ruining matchmaking, so as long as people are emboldened enough to admit to being part of the problem, I have to recommend partial DC penalties for lobby drops.
Plus we apparently are forgetting that with 8s base on a clicky, and 2s being the norm for interactions, you realistically could only get 3 max disables in normal cases.
(Also I can't tell if you had a Freudian slip when using a different name for the clicky machine or what...)
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Honestly the Lightburn change should have been done in the opposite way. Make Flashlights interact with every Killer power instead of none. Shine a light on the Drone to disarm, shine a light on Ghosty to reveal, shine a light on Infections to cure (maybe 4s instead of 1-2s for this), shine a light on anything to know it will be a universal power counter at the cost of the limited battery life.
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@Neaxolotl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3759503#Comment_3759503
4k is serious because literally every aspect of this game ask for 4k to qualify, fix that first
There is nothing fair about hatches when killer managed to almost win a game but robbed it away by pure RNG, there is no QOL or enjoyment for killer in this change
Also, if you can wait 2 minutes there is no reason you can't wait for another 2 minutes
The waiting math is hilariously wrong. It isn't 4 minutes, it is 4 minutes per player waiting, so that is 8-16 minutes, dependent on if people are waiting to check out builds.
But lets look at the extreme claim. Literally every aspect needs 4ks huh? Lets take a look at the latest Killer capable Chapter Tome challenges.
19-1 0/11
20 Crows, 40k BP, 6 Weapon hits, Carry 50m, Destroy 5 Pallets, Get 3 hooks, Get 2 downs, Damage 2 gens as Artist, Swarm distant Survs 6 times, Red Glyph, Core Memory. 0 4ks
Huh none that's weird… maybe the next?
19-2 0/13
3 Hooks, 4 Downs, 2 Silver Chaser Emblems, Mori 1 Surv, Chase for 60s, Hook 3 Different Survs, Hit Survs after Aura reveal 3 times, Hit Survs while Undetectable 3 times, Break 6 times (gen/pallet), Mori 2 Survs, Damage with Birds mid chase 2 times, Purple Glyph, Core Memory. 0 4ks.
Nope, zip nada nothing. I mean this is only level 2, surely level 3?
19-3 0/9
Damage 10 gens, 100k BP, Chase 8 Survs, Kill OBS, Break 15 times (gen/pallet/wall), Down 2 Survs in 60s twice, Zap >48m away Survs 4 times, Down people as Artist after crow injury 2 times, Orange Glyph (6 hooks). 0 4ks.
Huh, no 4k challenge… weird, I thought it was 'literally every aspect', but instead it has been literally no aspect thus far.
19-4 2.5/9
6 Kills (2 3s+Hatch, but I'll give you this one and pretend you 'need' one 4k), Hook Different Survs on Scourge Hooks 4 times, Hit Exposed Survs 4 times, Iri Gatekeeper (Hatch escape still gives the +10 points biggest boost), Close Hatch (We'll pretend you 'need' to kill the Surv because you want to not let someone through), Get 2 Iri Emblems (Gatekeeper is a gimme, Sac/Mal are essentially 4ks, and Chaser is a gimme, I can give at most half a point since Chaser and Gatekeeper are freebies, but you might want to ensure it takes 1 match), Hit Survs near a pallet after zapping, 2 Red Glyphs, 5 Green Glyphs. 2.5 4ks.
There we go! 2 (and a half) matches where you (might) need a 4k! Wait, out of ~40… huh. 2.5/42, or ~6%.
I must be missing something, lets check dailies! Hmm Mori 1, use Killer power, Chase, and a 2k. Nope, not a single daily requires a 4k.
To be fair we know adepts need a 4k, but we also know you have to run the 3 Killer unique perks, so every match that doesn't have 3 perks isn't an adept attempt.
So to end, we have nearly 1/20 matches 'needing' a 4k. That is far far far far far far far far from the 100% 'literally every aspect' as claimed before, so that has been concluded beyond all reason to be a bold face lie. Maybe if you said something like 'it feels like half the stuff needs a 4k', weighing much too heavily on 'feels', but you said 'literally every aspect'. To be charitable, the only way it wouldn't be a bold faced lie is if a player was hypothetically so bad at the game it takes them 1000 tries before they get each 4k challenge. Then it would change the numbers to ~2500/2540, which would actually feel like literally every match. So all I ask of you is to either admit you were lying in bad faith, or admit it takes you ~1000 matches to get a single 4k. Either way that makes your post make sense.
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@Neaxolotl said:
At that point just sacrifice everyone at once and call it the end, obviously only when everyone is downed
This doesn't fix the problem OP is seeking to fix, because the most common case is the Killer needlessly bleeding out for the 4k when they have 0 idea where the 4th is hiding.
@Neaxolotl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3759413#Comment_3759413
Then it shouldn't exist, there is no reason survivors should be granted a hatch
Slugging 4k is nothing wrong, in fact, as long as there is things that require 4k killer must have something to get 4k, relying on pure RNG is stupid
They aren't given Hatch, they still need to find it, just like normal. Slugging for the 4k (when you know where the 4th is) is fine, annoying, but fine. Bleeding out for the 4k is just being a jerk for no reason except to go on an ego trip. They've already won, and they are needlessly rubbing salt in the wound. This is against the spirit of the rules, even if it isn't against the letter. This 100% is Unsportsmanlike Conduct, even if slugging in and of itself isn't bannable.
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@Royval said:
why when there are perks that can make items better?
Base mechanics shouldn't be trash until a perk makes them viable.
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For my Ghosty Devour Hope build, a picture of every Survivor. That means if you photobomb a Mori (in the background), you get to live. If you block my picture of that original person though, I'm getting you also. Ghosty is an artist, you have to respect his art!
Also if they early cleanse Devour Hope (before i reach 5 tokens), I try to sleuth out who cleansed it (and Undying if I brought it), and only kill the cleanser(s).
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They have shown that they can make a totem become lit mid-match (see Hex:Face The Darkness/Plaything), so just adjust all totems to work the same. Hex: Devour? Only spawn on first unhook granting a token. Hex: Huntress Lullaby? Spawn on first hook. Hex: Crowd Control? On first fast vault after a chase (so people don't vault a window on spawn to cheese it). Hexes that should be there from the start? Maybe spawn in 15-30s (randomly) from the start of the match. There might even be a case to simply spawn in all Hexes at 60s instead, but I prefer the idea of them spawning in when they become relevant.
In addition, some people might cleanse totems they spawn next to in order to prevent totems from spawning at all. In order to counter this, simply Entity Block totem spots until the above 15-30s random timer runs out. Make sure to use the loud anti-3gen Regression limit to help newer players find totem spots. Also this might be good to be mutually exclusive with Corrupt Intervention. Either protect totems, or protect gens, and since we see how bad for the game 4 slowdown is, this might be needed.
Also since we have Pinhead and box spawn logic (spawn the furthest from all players), we can reverse the logic and make Hexes spawn away from Survivors, (and ignore the Killer). Just re-use the code logic, and swap Killer and Survivor for the distance values.
As a separate final buff, I'd say 1 'Pentimento' styled respawn should be basekit. You can place a totem on any cleansed totem spot once per match (replacing the first cleansed totem from your perks) back at 0 stacks (if applicable). Alternatively, we could map each perk to a D-pad/keybind, and that determines which totem you replace. Also, potentially as a separate buff to Shattered Hope, increase this (by 2) to 3 respawns (or even just by 4 to 5, it really isn't in a good spot right now, but this also might be too rough fighting up to 6 Ruins [see old Forever Freddy]).
So to sum up
- Spawn totems when the first token/action relevant happens, or randomly 15-30s otherwise (Haunted Ground/Ruin)
- Entity block totems during the above timer. (To prevent pre-cleanses to prevent Hex Spawns).
- Spawn Hexes away from Survivors using Pinhead box logic but for totems
- Allow 1 totem respawn per match (resetting tokens to 0) with a Pentimento style respawn (aka using the Rekindled Mechanic)
Many of these are broad statements/suggestions other people have made, but just pinned down to more specific things.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3759046#Comment_3759046
Really? Didn't know rummaging couldn't be done by different people. In our defense, don't think we ever saw anyone try either. Well, even then its still not bad, but its gonna be a headache when everyone brings it. Everyone racing to boxes X}
The info does make OPs "solution" 2 more reasonable though.
Yeah it'll just end up like people stacking Sable's Basement Invocation perk, doing nothing useful in 99% of cases.
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@Leonardo1ita said:
4% for searching or rummaging through a chest is a miserable percentage.
It's not even good to recover time in a chest build with Pharmacy and a Map, 4% is just too little.
Without a map, you might not even find a chest at all in a reasonable time.
4 Solutions:
- Buff the numbers from 4% to 9%.
- Make it something incremental in value, so the first token is 4% overall, the second it's 12% overall, the third 22%, the fourth 34%, the fifth 46%, the sixth 62%.
- Give a bigger bonus when a chest is opened for the first time.
- Give the ability to rummage through chests, which for some reason this perk doesn't give you the ability to do already…
24% for wasting time to searching or rummaging 6 chests and risking to find bad items or the useless Broken Key is BAD, the numbers are too low, especially considering that for chest builds you need usually 2/3 perks, and ideally as many Coin offerings as possible.
I think it should never be better than the time investment itself, because charge limit itself gets into a scary zone to mess with.
@Rulebreaker said:
Honestly if you run a plunder build it doesn't seem to be that bad. You get good items and can lock progress on a gen relatively easy, no map required. Only thing it gets hurt by is Weave (if this brings in the crazies we apologize).
As to the "solutions":
- That would be around 56% per survivor running the perk. No. Absolutely no. Hell no. We can't say no enough.
- Again, on each survivor.
- ... this one is admittedly reasonable. Only thing we can think of is how big the bonus is as people can throw shiny coins for more boxes.
- This would make it a straight upgrade to Appraisal then. We're not exactly opposed, but change appraisal first if we're adding this plz.
There are a handful of perks to show chests, the best of which in our opinion is Plunders instinct, which heavily lowers the risk of bad items and time to look for boxes. Yes you need to build into it, but you generally need to build into a lot of things to make them shine.
To be fair, the limit is the total chestsx2. Rummaging can't be done multiple times, (even by different people), so the perk is already heavily limited in potential.
@Levitika said:
These numbers are absurd. It's also not PERCENTAGE. It's CHARGES. 24 charges on a generator (90 charges) is 26.66% of a generator. So you're suggesting a Survivor should be able to shave off 68.89% of a generator by themselves, which is insanity.
This doesn't really matter though, it takes ~60s to get 6 charges assuming you TP to every chest, and that only gives a charge reduction of 24. It might be usable at 5/token or 30 at max, and viable at any amount above that. 9 I think does reach the danger zone, but given the time investment (and a Killer who runs at least one Intel perk), it would be fine even at 8 (since travel time exists).
@Neaxolotl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3758960#Comment_3758960
Reduced maximum charge is notably stronger than normal charges though
I would agree it is stronger, but only a factor of 10-25% at most.
@Ohyakno said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3758960#Comment_3758960
You also get other stuff from the chest. The equation isn't this simple.
I encourage you to spend 10 matches playing Survivor running the loot goblin build, and write down/record the results. Often times you end up having to backtrack to get a flashy/toolbox instead of holding onto a medkit, in which case it wastes too much of your time. On paper it may sound great to good, but in practice the perk only makes the build shift from 'a trolling loss' to a 'drop shack pallet at the start' grief.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3758499#Comment_3758499
A draw might actually be an MMR loss for killers, because the MMR formula is designed to stabilize killers at a 60% kill rate, and a draw is less than a 60% kill rate.
A draw also might actually be an MMR gain for Killers, because they killed the 2 players with more MMR than them, and the 2 escapees also had more MMR, thus giving the Killer the largest bump and smallest decrease.
Plus with the softcap of MMR that we know exists (but don't know the strength), we might have a 20 point shift for escape/kill (with reductions divided by 10 due to softcap) for a 1k to end up giving +20 MMR, and -6 (20/20/20 → 2/2/2) MMR, for a net +14 MMR.
Unless the devs become transparent about MMR, all of these fringe claims are meaningless speculation, and assuming an equal '+' for kill and equal '-' for escape is the safest guess.
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I do think they are getting worse, but there is a variable unaccounted for in the video. In the right video, they throw a firecracker/flashbang, so that might affect the scratch mark spawn logic in a way we are unaware. It may be the case that they are getting worse because more people are using flashbangs, but it also could just be scratch mark issues in general.
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@Krogund said:
@ColdCobalt , @VomitMommy , @mizark3 , @Ohyakno , @cclain , @bjorksnas , @Halloulle , @Deathstroke , @Nightram , @BlightedDolphin
What about this?
When there are two Survivors Left…
- Both survivors gain the ability to recover from the dying state at a 100% speed.
- After recovering, they receive 10 seconds of endurance, to avoid immediate downing.
- If fewer than three generators have been completed, the remaining generators will be completed automatically, except for the five that are the furthest apart. This ensures the last two survivors need to complete only two more generators to power the gates.
- During this phase, if at least one generator has not had any progress for the last 10 seconds, the killer receives Killer Instinct on both survivors for 3 seconds.
When there is 1 survivor left, current rules apply.
This way it is ensured that the survivors still have a fair chance at escaping the trial. We avoid slugging for the 4k, we avoid survivors hiding until the other die (even with stealthy perks you can't hide from killer instinct).
So I generally try to think of how people can abuse things when I'm not the one suggesting the idea, and I just had a 'work with Killer' Survivor recently, so what would a 'work with Killer' Survivor do here?
The honest Survivor would attempt a gen, but the other Survivor is just going to search lockers and whatnot, and abuse the HUD to seek them out. The honest Surv doesn't have enough time to search for a gen and tap it to prevent this. We can't prevent people from working with Killer, but we can give the honest players enough info for a report.
- Make the Killer Instinct delay a little bit longer, and recover up to say 30s from continuous gen work. So a gen tap sets it to 10s (must prevent regression if it is applied though), then 20s of pumping gens raises it to 30s.
- Make the Killer Instinct a per-player timer, that way the rat/Working With Killer player gets revealed, and also reveal them to the other player when this happens.
- Make the Killer Instinct timer reset to 30s when revealed, that way if someone is ratting the entire time, they don't get off scott-free if the Killer can't find them within the 3s initial Killer Instinct.
- Maybe pause the Killer Instinct timer (at a max of 10s left on the timer) if the Survivor is within the greater of Terror Radius/16m or in chase. Stealth shouldn't be entirely removed as an option, especially if someone is actually pumping a gen to save the timer then slipping out safely. Also a chased player doesn't need Killer Instinct as the Killer should down them eventually.
With those, it would give an honest Survivor enough time to record evidence of Working With Killer for a report, not delete stealth entirely, and also eliminate the edge case of not finding someone within 3s of Killer Instinct.
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@BlightedDolphin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3758001#Comment_3758001
I don't think something is healthy if it is unfun for the majority of the player base.
As I said multiple times, it didn't discourage anything. You had to tunnel and slug to counter it. Camping the key user out was also very common. The only I guess it did help was 3 gens, but as you said the regression limit takes care of that and is much healthier for the game.
Yes you still get teammates give up when it's hopeless, you still had those back then but you also had survivors abandon you even when you could have still won. 3 survivors left at 1 gen is very possible to win. Have one of them leave and suddenly those other 2 are screwed.
Yes dodging is a problem but it was WAY worse back then. If we just go by the logic of "it's still an issue so why not make it worse?" then the game would have died years ago. I do think lobby dodging should have some fix, but unfortunately they can't do anything about that until they fix OCE getting stuck in 150+ ping lobbies every second game. Which I doubt will happen anytime soon sadly.
From an MMR point of view, yes you technically gained MMR, but I wouldn't call it a win from a players POV. If anything it was worse to gain MMR because then you were more likely to play against the teams that keys. It felt awful either way and I really don't think it was good for the game simply because it kinda discouraged one playstyle.
As for the BP gains, sure increase them, who cares? But that scenario still isn't comparable. The killer isn't playing whereas the survivors with the key were. Your aren't being punished for outplaying on the killer, you are being punished because the BP gains are already low and the killer just isn't playing. An actual comparable thing would be if the killer plays bad they can bring an item that instantly kills you. Like the original moris.
It's clear that we disagree and I'm not going to try and convince you when we both won't change our minds, so let's just agree to disagree.
That's part of what I think is inaccurate, it isn't unfun for the majority of the playerbase, because the majority of the playerbase isn't playing into making the worst aspects of it happen. It is a mirror shield of unfun, where you only get blinded if you tried to blind someone else. Not enough of the game gives empathy for the other side, and this gave a needed empathy reflection for many Killer players.
Camping/tunneling the Key user out doesn't delete the key from the match, it stays on hook or where they last dropped it. So this is a petulant child's reaction, that is ill served by taking this route. The best countermeasure is to keep track of Survivors, and kill the key user first after a long enough match that the Survivors no longer had a Key escape in their mind.
I mean I get Survivors abandoning SM and Nurse matches when we can still win, so again, not a Key/Hatch issue. People using Sole Survivor are doing this 'abandon the team at the slightest bit of resistance' playstyle to this day, and they are rewarded with Gate Escapes.
Dodging worse then, I suppose we have to agree to disagree. I think dodging is far worse since P100's being visible in the lobby were seen. Maybe that's just my experience vs yours. Also I'm West Coast america(s) and get VPN Killers from across the Pacific ALL THE TIME. I check their steam profile and see a certain nation show up far more often than any other, and I know they have a server far closer than mine (and even EU servers are closer than mine). I don't know OCE server situation, so I can't speak to that issue.
The MMR issue makes my point for me, a win where you made someone feel bad should feel bad in return. That's what old Hatch did. I can win consistently attempting 8 hooks before my first kill (9th hook being first kill), and when I had that playstyle back in Rank based matchmaking, old Keys/Hatch were never an issue for me.
My whole point with BP was addressing your issue of 'punishment'. Survivors are still 'punished' to this day for playing the game in a manner that isn't annoying to the other side, yet we changed this issue 'punishing' undesired Killer behaviors back to encouraging them.
On your final point, that's fine with me if you choose to respond or not. These are asynchronous conversations that aren't only for us two, but also all other readers.
@Ohyakno said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3758001#Comment_3758001
You're really fixated on BP. I don't care about BP. Like, at all. I want three survivors dead. That's my win condition. If three survivors bipple bap out the hatch I'm never getting that and it feels like I've been robbed a match.
Just because I have to do a great deal of math to prove my point, doesn't mean I'm fixated on it. It truly is a 1-2 sentence issue should you choose to read the 2nd to last paragraph in my reply to the other person. When I post 4 paragraphs and you think 1 paragraph is a 'fixation', that tells me there is either an issue with my communication, or your interpretation.
3 Survs escaping through Hatch wasn't happening at nearly the rate people are reporting, and it was rarely an issue even when they brought a key. Plus it provides a great deal of comfort to me that I now know that they don't have Toolboxes or Medkits, things that can actually affect normal matches to a meaningful degree (especially with old Medkits).
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On release of the Hook HUD I wanted it visible, then I wanted it not to show due to tunneling, but I've leaned back to just show the individual hooks states now. Tunneling Killers are going to know their 1/2 tunnel victims outside of a mentally AFK Bubba sawing down the basement stairs. I think implementing a real basekit anti-tunnel would necessitate showing who you aren't tunneling for newer/weaker players.
@Bran said:
I think people need a reminder that tunneling isn't downing or hooking the same survivor, but specifically targeting that survivor.
But regardless. With the amount of info and assistance the game has, I don't think showing a hook tally would change much.
I mean in most cases people not intentionally taking aggro but using DS/OTR are tunneled, its kinda the definition if they are anti-tunnel perks being used.
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@BlightedDolphin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3757980#Comment_3757980
I’m talking about the same hatch as you. Any time the hatch could be opened before every gen was completed/being the last survivor alive was unhealthy and unfun to deal with.
You couldn’t make sure the key holder was the one who died first because:
- It was pretty difficult to even see if someone had a key
- They often went into hiding towards the end so you couldn’t find them.
- The rest of the team played aggressively to guard and you couldn’t even do anything about it because as soon as they die it’s over
You couldn’t guard the key because the survivors could just instantly pick it up. They don’t need to do gens at all because as soon as you leave the key spot it’s over and they win. You couldn’t close the hatch because that triggered EGC and instantly repaired all the remaining gens. You had to wait for it to close itself and that just gave the survivors time to work on gens unpressured and it STILL felt awful because the survivor just escaped in your face for free.
It was also incredibly unfun to experience it as a solo queue survivor because your teammate would be getting tunnelled and you just have to sit on a gen all game. And then they would just dip and leave you to die anyway. And it made survivor queue times really long since killers would dodge lobbies with keys. And then survivors started last seconds switching so killers started leaving during the loading screen. So it just took forever.
I’m all for giving survivors more BP but I really don’t see how that is anyway comparable. 25k BP is not the same as an instant loss. Besides killers don’t even get bonus BP when survivors give up on hook anyway so I fail to see how that is comparable.
There’s nothing wrong with going easy on people when it is clearly in your favour, I do the same often, however the game should not balanced around that.
I really don’t think there was anything good about the previous hatch design. Unless you were playing in a SWF, it was just a miserable time to play a game with a key. It was way too stressful as killer to deal with it and as a solo survivor it was boring. The current version we have isn’t perfect and I wouldn’t mind some changes to it, but the hatch should never be anything more than a last chance escape.
I would say healthy and unfun, but that was the point. To discourage the worst of behaviors that we instead needed to implement a Regression limit for, among other base game flaws. To be clear, I do think the Key Hatch-open animation and charge minimum requirement for keys they did in the Mikaela patch was all the needed, but that is a fix to keys. not Hatch (although I believe they were done in the same patch, so that's fair to link the thought).
As far as soloq, that has changed nothing for me. When it gets obvious that the match is hopeless, Survivors are swapping to Metal Gear Solid regardless if they had a key or not. They still do the exact same thing now that Hatch was changed.
Killers lobby dodging is still a problem, and if I soloq into someone else using their P100, the lobby gets dodged at a far greater rate than Keys ever made people dodge (at least in my experience). Killer Lobby Shopping needs DC penalties at a lesser rate (2 or 3 dodged lobbies counts as a DC?) to fix matchmaking and prevent Killers from ruining match integrity from the onset. Not a Key/Hatch unique problem.
A Hatch escape isn't an instant loss. First off it is a win for Killer since at least one person died, or the Survivors gave up a full gate win to settle for a lesser tie, turning a -4 loss for Killer into a 0 tie. For the BP/'punished' aspect, even if someone is tunneled out and the Killer gets 3 hooks 1 kill 1 gen remaining triple Hatch escape, the Killer is likely still getting minimum 20k BP for doing 3/12 of their objective, compared to a Survivor soloing all 5 gens, opening the gate, and escaping with 14.5k max(1250x5 gens, 1250 Gate open, 7k Escape). The comparison I'm making is a Survivor doing ALL of their primary objective comes out with ~3/8ths the max BP, and a Killer doing 1/4 their primary objective comes out with ~1/2 of theirs. My issue is that a Survivor is 'punished' for playing ALL of their primary objective against even an AFK Killer, and the Killer is still rewarded with excess BP (compared to what they did) and a win with a 3 Hatch escape (W/T/T/T).
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@Objectively_speaking said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3757577#Comment_3757577
Tldr, Basekit singularity sucks, you do need soma to get hits because good survivors will just hold checkspots. Singularity cannot dash towards you or hit you from afar they have to walk to hit you.
Better survivors run to windows not to pallets, and if you hold proper checkspots base singularity should never get the hit in power unless, key word here, UNLESS survivors make a mistake. You literally cannot get a hit in power if they hold w your boost will run out before a hit. You can see this. Without soma you will not get a hit unless a survivor makes a mistake, if you got a hit in power then that survivor made a mistake. Actually play the killer and you will see how awful he is. Soma is literally needed to get hit otherwise the survivor can vault or rerun the loop etc.
Basekit, your Macro means nothing if every hit takes 5 to ten seconds for first goop, Emped for 5 seconds, another ten seconds for second goop, then a tp <basekit so survivor needs to make a mistake> so eight seconds for a pallet or hit, repeat till down etc. it adds up to forty or fifty seconds chases but better survivors will ruin it for you. Sure they wont play perfect but you wont either so the outcome is they same.
Every Killer basekit sucks by that logic, but I'm pretty sure everyone runs at least double brown add-ons just to use the slots at bare minimum. Soma is a crutch for people who lack the mental capacity to understand the macro strength of Singularity's power. You save time by crossing vast distances by TPing, or to utilize the Spirit Fury/75% action speed boost.
You only get a hit if a Survivor makes a mistake - Yeah that's DBD? I don't understand the point you are trying to make here? Only broken OP Killers get downs for free when Survivors don't make mistakes. Every chase is a matter of making less mistakes than your opponent to avoid hits/get hits. I've played the Killer extensively, and I friggin' love him. I only lose to significantly better players with Singularity, unlike other Killers I like such as Ghosty, who can lose to only mildly better players. (Or to compare to pre-addon nerf Blight, never lose when I make no mistakes, so it is essentially a free win [and I mostly used Adren Vial + Shredded Notes as a meme combo].)
The Macro scenario you describe is only if the player is garbage at Singularity. It should take 3-5s max to tag someone, and the first TP just negates the time lost sitting still to tag. It also took a teammate 20s to grab the EMP and run over to the chase location, use the EMP, then run back to a gen, and they are getting tagged in the process giving the Singularity 2 choices of chase locations (Surv A or just used EMP Surv B), with both tagged now.
@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3757577#Comment_3757577
This is bananas. You don't even understand EMPs in relation to gen pressure, of which there is none with this killer. The time investment of getting EMPs is so worth it, it's not even funny. Singularity can set up a well-placed camera that covers all workable sides of the gen, and then as soon as he infects someone, they EMP, which undoes the infection and disables the camera for a hideous amount of time. Now what? He's forced to manually walk over there, and either replace the camera/regress gen or infect/chase 1 survivor off. Either way, huge time waste which is a net positive for survivors because he's still only interrupting 1-2 people. Or he can do none of those things, let them have the gen for free, because they'll EMP his camera again if he tries to stop it, and instead chase the survivor near him, who with or without an EMP will waste too much of his time anyway that he can't possibly make up. The only way he'd get any amount of pressure rolling is if all 4 survivors looked for EMPs at the start instead of gens, 1 got interrupted by Singularity while trying to get one, and then had a really bad quick chase. Even then, he needs that process to rinse and repeat nonstop the whole match, while counting hooks so he doesn't go for more than 1-2 at a time (an auto-loss), which almost can't happen because the EMPs not only generate automatically, but can also wipe out multiple infections and/or multiple cameras at once, of which 1 instance of that is an auto-loss. When the survivors can just rebound so easily, because the Singularity has to do so much for so little, what even is "the wrong play" that they could possibly make?
Y'all keep taking about this magical world where a certain killer is always in advantage and can always rebound if he always does this scientifically broken down thing, but in practice it virtually never lines up with what I and others see or are physically capable of. It stinks of smurf-esque opposition, confirmation bias, and luck. You'd have to experience the most successful, no-misplay series of matches to even come close to these conclusions. Because in my experience, 1 player knows how to loop/counterplay, killer could lose the whole game. 4 players possess that knowledge, defeat is basically inevitable. Multi-thousand hour players like myself know this. The only killers that break this rule, because of just how much they can do at loops, how much map/chase pressure they have, or how easily they can get a hit, would be like Nurse, Blight with speed add-ons, Myers with purple add-ons AND the best possible map with no SWF involved. And it's still not foolproof. So if those killers are struggling, everyone besides them is most assuredly struggling. Just based off my experience with Trapper, Hag, Demogorgon (if using portals), Skull Merchant (set-up killers), I can see the countless weaknesses that Singularity has. Countless. He has more counterplay than Wraith and Hag, which is frankly shocking. I'm astonished, that killers like this get such high praise, because in the grand scheme of the game this is not viable. Viable killers can win vs good survivors who know the counterplay, not just against hammy survivors who don't know what they're doing.
🤷♀️
I'm sure in your soloq match where you run against a baby-Singularity who doesn't know how to play the Killer, that's how EMP pressure works, but the second the Singularity uses their brain, it plays out as I've described. If the Surv had to burn an EMP to safely work a gen, then they don't have access to one when they need it more. Knowing someone is working the back gen is knowledge, and knowledge is power. Just because a baby Singularity doesn't know how to use that knowledge doesn't mean the knowledge itself is meaningless. If the situation you are describing is true, then a good Singularity will let them pump that gen and pressure the remaining 3 instead, forcing that back Surv to leave the safe EMPed zone to unhook/heal/EMP a Surv mid chase to prevent too quick a death, making that original EMP wasted (since it isn't actually preventing the Singularity from applying meaningful pressure). Sure, maybe if it is the final gen cross-map it would be relevant, but the majority of people across all skill levels burn EMPs like they are fireworks on a major holiday.
I talk about how I play and have seen Singularity played. It isn't magic, it's simply using the brain I was born with, and the enemy Singularity doing the same. As far as 'smurf opposition' we all know MMR is incompetent, and doesn't even give proper matches the majority of the time, and Top MMR/Long MMR is a joke people use to falsely justify their hours spent. You don't need to 'fix your MMR' or 'derank to win again', the games matchmaking is garbage. Multi-thousand hour players like myself know this. All the game boils down to is which side makes fewer mistakes, yours, or the enemies'. When I play Killer, I am the only one making mistakes on my team, and I can abuse the potential for each independent Survivor player being worse than me, or get better and make fewer mistakes. When I play Survivor, all it takes is the Killer to use their brain and stop chasing me if I am juicing them in chase. Viable Killers can win vs good Survivors who know the counterplay when they are better than their opponents. If someone isn't good enough to win against good Survivors, they simply aren't that good of a Killer. When people crutch on the S-tier Killers, it distorts their mind into what they think is viable. When a Thana/Plaything/Penti Myers can win consistently in top MMR, that means the player is sufficiently skilled with Myers. When a player can only consistently win with top-tier Killers, they fundamentally lack the skill they often claim to have.
If you want to make a separate argument for Tourneys, you can feel free to have that discussion with yourself, because no one queuing up in the game is queuing into a tournament match. Tourney matches are in customs, where showers are optional (but frowned upon) and fun is banned.
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@BlightedDolphin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3757707#Comment_3757707
The old hatch was very unhealthy and made the game worse.
It didn't punish unfun play styles like tunnelling and slugging, it encouraged it. If the killer played for 12 hooks and then killed someone at 1 gen remaining, it was GG. All 3 are gone now because they brought a key. The counter play to that was to sweat your butt off and try to kill them all before you got down to 2 gens remaining to prevent the guaranteed 2-3 man escape. You had to tunnel the key user out earlier or slug everyone so that you don't spawn the hatch too early. And that was only if you knew they had a key. Some survivor animations made it ridiculously difficult to tell if they had a key in the lobby AND you could find it in a chest and suddenly it's a free win.
Punishing the killer for "going too hard" on the survivors is also not fair at all. 2 survivors at 2 gens isn't uncommon and isn't going too hard at all. It would like if the killer only has 4 hooks at the end game, 2 survivors suddenly die as punishment for being too good. That's not fair. You shouldn't have to purposefully play bad to avoid losing.
Old hatch was awful for the game. It just made the game sweatier and less enjoyable. If the main reason you want it is to avoid Nurse and Skull Merchant games, then I think the better solution is to change those killers rather than make a mechanic that punishes the other killers harder (because games against those 2 are more likely to never 1-2 gens, it's much less likely the hatch mechanic will come into play against them but against Trapper it would be too common and game changing).
If you are talking Hatch grab old Hatch I would I agree, but that's why I always qualify with the pre-Mikaela Hatch.
In the 9 hook first kill at 1 gen, you can make sure the Key holder is the one you killed, and can defend their death hook as a 4th patrol spot. It also still allowed for closing Hatch, so you could close Hatch after the first person hops out. Even after all that effort, Killer still won.
Punishing Killer for going too hard on Survivors isn't fair - As long as you stay logically consistent and think Survivors should get 25k BP when the Killer is essentially AFK, then sure. I still think when I am easily winning as Killer (say 6 hooks still at 5 gens) I should ease up off the gas and try new tricks, no matter how risky, because I know I (could have) won regardless of the results.
OG Hatch was awful for the game, agreed. Pre-Mikaela Hatch was a net positive. A mild nuisance at worst, paired with solving numerous problems that cropped up to prominence only after Pre-Mikaela Hatch's removal, yeah Pre-Mikaela Hatch was great.
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@Donyjunior said:
- Do people take too long to hit the "Ready" button?
- Do every survivors like to TBAG before pass through the exit gate?
- Do survivors like to see the killer watching them jumping into the exit hatch?
- Spending BP, went to the bathroom during the queue-time, trying to figure out what build to use with the new tome they are attempting, and plenty more.
- This is a self-report to a playstyle. I go for 2 hooks each Survivor before each kill, and I get about 10% exit gate teabags (when they can even reach that far). If they are teabagging 100% of the time in your games, then you probably are to blame. When one person stinks, they should probably clean up, when everyone stinks, it probably is me.
- See 2. I clean up pallets and they just leave the majority of the time (>90%).
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Feng for the OG stinky player. Mikaela for the nu wave stinky player. Sable for the 'I have never showered in my life' stinky player. At least BHVR gets better at making bad characters over time.
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Anecdotally when my friends and I (3 man SWF) played after a couple matches we joked "we can quit when we get 3 out" (with or without the random, just 3 or more total Survs), then I started tracking our stats. We played 10 more matches, and we had 6 escapes total… 6/40. Two of the escapes were hatch, and one was an earned exit gate (not a hatch close), the final was a 3-out (2 of us and the random). We actually had more matches where the Killer refused to let someone play the game (8/40 Survs had sub 10k BP) than we had escapes.
We had 10% Survivor winrate, 5% Hatch Tie, 75% Killer winrate, and 20% Killer 'bully' rate.
I swapped to Killer and found it much too easy (3 matches in a row with 4k/3k+hatch at 3+ gens before I got bored and quit).
Something is off right now, and I don't think it is just the event.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3757696#Comment_3757696
Right, but let's imagine for a moment that the devs decide they're not changing Deja Vu anymore. Is there any problem that arises because of this hypothetical decision?
It's not actually integral to the game's function like Decisive Strike, since it doesn't actually help against intentional 3-genning and also the basekit mechanic designed to fix that was a lot more effective than the anti-tunnel mechanic. The only problem that could exist, therefore, is if it's too strong as-is after the 3-gen mechanic was integrated.
Would you say that it is too strong? If so, how?
Diminished Player/Dev Trust from not keeping to their word. To be fair that is pretty bad now from what I see, so it wouldn't change it meaningfully, but it would just add another layer of mistrust to be peeled back. Mechanically I honestly think it is fine as is, but it is small enough I think it also is a great token nerf to allow for fixing a greater flaw alongside it (or in the future). The playerbase is often too tribal, and a nerf/buff to one side is considered unfair, without a corresponding nerf/buff for the opposite side. Since this was considered a buff to counter 3-gens, reverting the buff to justify the Regression limit fits in the childish 'I got mine' mentality.
In specific, I weigh the gen speeds against the old 80s timer (which I had no problem winning as Killer with). I don't think any buff to gen speeds that fails to reach the equivalent timer is too powerful. Old Deja Vu saved at max, 3s from 80s (60s of 5% faster, or 63 gen seconds in 60 real time seconds, for a total of 77 real time seconds for 1 gen). That means new Deja Vu has to save more than 13 gen seconds for me to think it is too powerful. That would require a ~17% boost for a normal 90s gen to even match the 'real' gen speed with old Deja Vu taking 77 real time seconds.
I just think it is a safe 'sacrificial lamb' counter-balance nerf target.
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@Krogund said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3757620#Comment_3757620
I never experienced the old hatch mechanic. Based on what you're saying it doesn't sound "great".
For matchmaking purposes, if you get a win out of 1 kil (K/T/T/T) it's working against yourself because you'll get paired against better survivor every time even getting 1 kill. If, as you mentioned in point 3, the survivors delibrately choose to get hatch to give better results to the killer, it's the same thing, the killer is not good enough for that mmr but get's his ranking higher anyways.
How is the game worse be removing hatch?
It would be a normal game and in the end you'd have a last 2 minutes to chase someone. What is not good/healthy is the last 2 survivors hiding and not even trying to do gens until you find one of them or the killer slugging the 3rd survivor for 4 minutes trying to get a 4k. Or closing the hatch and spend 2 minutes going from gate to gate looking for the survivor.Just my opinion.
First off there was 2 'old Hatch' mechanics. The Hatch standoff (which is fair to complain about since it would extend match time), and the better pre-Mikaela Hatch (which was basically just the current hatch but allowed multiple people to escape with a Key+'Gens Remaining<=Dead Survs').
It wasn't great in and of itself, it was great because of what it prevented and discouraged.
Tie issue: It works best when the Survivor team basically knows it would be a lost match, and this allows for them to reasonably fight for a lesser loss instead of an impossible win. Keeping hope is important, and Kobes every other match are what happens when hope is snuffed out. Also both the Survivors and Killers can already 'spoof' MMR by hiding to die to EGC or dropping Survs out of the gates, so that isn't a Hatch unique issue.
Game worse by removing Hatch: Because again, hope is important. If the match is doomed, we get Nurse and SM Kobes from the start. That means the match never gets to be played. If the last Survivor at least has the hope of Hatch, then they won't play Metal Gear Solid for years. The only time currently that is an issue is when 2 Survivors are left with too many gens to complete. That means the Killer when too hard on them, and the Killer is annoyed as a consequence. It punishes Survivor annoyance with Killer annoyance, and ideally that means Killer plays more like a DM role, or is willing to take riskier chases or attempt riskier plays to give the Survivors more hope and the Killer an opportunity to learn a new skill to add to their repertoire.
With or without Hatch the final 2 Survs playing Metal Gear Solid will be an issue. They both are going to hide to hope the other person is dead first. The Killer bleeding out for the 4k is nothing but BM, and honestly should be reportable under the rules as intended (they literally call one of the subsections 'Unsportsmanlike Conduct').
The best way to end a clear win is by letting the Survivor take Hatch. It fits the theme of a 'final girl' escaping the Killer. It is RNG, thus not an earned win, so there is no lost face. It doesn't give the Survivor MMR (unlike closing Hatch and slipping up on gate patrols can). It gives Survivor 7k BP which is better for the player economy. It saves time rather than waiting out the 2m EGC timer. Like the only reason to go for a 4k is a tome/achievement, which can simply be fixed by counting Hatch+3k for those.