mizark3
mizark3
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3744757#Comment_3744757
We expressed concerns that Alex toolbox + speed addons allows a survivor to take a hit, sabotage a hook in the killer’s face, and move away before the killer could swing again…… and that still hasn’t been addressed.
And now we’re going to be forced to deal with 100% iron will again, which I already know is going to be awful because I’ve already experienced 100% iron will in the past. Why do many killer perks need to have limited durations, and other large restrictions, but it’s cool if Iron will and calm spirit can have unlimited durations? Why is it cool that in most matches, Distortion might as well have unlimited durations if the survivor tries a bit to avoid the aura perks Distortion revealed to them (I.e. hiding in a locker before a survivor gets hooked, if Distortion revealed BBQ)?
Perks like off the record are healthy for the game, because the stealth component has a limited duration. At the very least, iron will should inflict exhaustion, so survivors can’t just combo it with dead hard, and mostly bypass the exhaustion restriction.
The Killer still has all the choices all throughout a sabo scenario.
- They can head 1-6 different directions to get a hook from pickup, location dependent.
- They can drop when they see a Survivor attempting Sabo (getting in position with a Toolbox also counts).
- They can get the sabo free hit then drop.
- They can take the free sabo hit and still reach another hook in time.
- They can fake Hook 1 to bait a sabo, and go for Hook 2 instead.
- If they are in a corner, then they are only prohibited from option 1 (shrinking options down to 1 direction only).
So where is this a problem? There are 4/5 scenarios for the Killer to still come out on top in a Sabo scenario, based on whether the downed Survivor was in a corner or not. Garsh darn, I can't win against No Mither Survivors saboing all the time.
Distortion is annoying, sure, but the lack of information is also information. I run Lethal Pursuer and Iri Cam on Ghostface, and the starting Lethal gives me enough info to plan around for the rest of the match. Distortion should probably be looked at to remove the token recovery, but only once the super common aura add-ons are limited. Iri Cam and Leprose Lichen are in the same category as Compound Twenty-One and Glowing Concoction, which are also competing against Lavalier Microphone, Cigar Box, All Seeing Blood, Light Chassis, and Mirror Myers. We have 3 distinct classes of aura add-ons: earned/rare, unearned/common, and effectively permanent. Distortion has to compete against all 3 classes, which means the earned/rare are thrown under the bus, and the effectively permanent are unaffected.
Iron Will is still going to be mutually exclusive with Exhaustion, so it won't work against the superior Sprint Burst, and tunneling off hook already neuters Dead Hard. Having it be denied by Exhaustion is better than applying Exhaustion, because I can use Mindbreaker or any other Exhaustion add-on or perk to counter it. It gives Killers MORE counterplay by having it work the current way.
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@Krazzik said:
I don't quite understand the logic here. There will still be situations where picking up the survivor is the bad move.
If a survivor goes down at a pallet and the killer knows there's flashlights, background player or suspects Flip Flop/Power Struggle, slugging is still the smart move.
I had a game where there was one survivor left, they were downed at a pallet and have been downed for a while. I'd be crazy to pick them up and risk FF/PS and them escaping, it's much smarter to wait till they bleed out.
People aren't talking about when Survivors are all alive and threatening rescues, people are talking about the 4 slug, slug for 4k, or if someone is spinning under a hook in the Killer's face waiting for the Killer to hook them.
If Hatch is closed, and the gates haven't been touched, there is still no justification to bleed them out instead. If gates are opened, then we have EGC to end the match.
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@[Deleted User] said:
HAVE TOP/HIGH/LONG MMR
I love the last one, I'm gunna start using that lol. Bro are you even loooooooooong MMR?
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@Royval said:
Survivors asking for move perks basekit. When will us killers get something “basekit”?
I definitely think an 8-12m Deerstalker should be basekit, and maybe a BBQ for the least hooked Survivor would both be roughly even to the limited version of Windows I listed above your post. I also suggested a limited version of NOED here which people didn't like because they didn't read the limits. Also in general it would engender more support by not being openly tribal ("us killers").
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Maybe the concept of it. Like sit on gens for 10s (consecutively) then it will reveal the aura of all pallets/windows within 24m of that gen only. Nothing mobile/in-chase though as a basekit.
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think wasting the oppositions time is warranted (bleedout/exit gate t-bag), but calling me names goes too far!
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3743598#Comment_3743598
2: While I get the argument, one of the defenses of a meta is it gives something to play around. The killer has strong perks, but survivors can bring perks to try and counter those. If you bring a counter to a meta perk and the killer doesn't have it, at least you know they were likely playing a weaker perk. If you brought a meta counter, but just drew the wrong killer, that would suck.
4: But I don't think people would adjust who they play. If Trapper got a buff of 2.0% to kicks his win rate would go up a few points when you take the impact of millions of games. But each person's individual experience would be highly unlikely to notice that small difference. So you create a whole new thing to balance around without really impacting the individual experience.
2- I think a varied meta is better. If I bring a perk set to deal with a high Mobility Killer, then since I am not countering low Mobility Killers they fare better off. This is already the case with numerous meta perks, run DS/UB 4 matches and get tunneled/slugged the 5th when you take it off. This isn't really anything new IMO, and I would much rather have the counter for sweatlord Killers on-hand and run into a Huntress/Hag than bring Urban Evasion just to counter them. That was my main way of winning as most Killers, by never slugging and tunneling. They never get to use their perks, so I'm fully kitted and they are down 2 each. Having a fixed meta leads to stale gameplay, which leads to boredom, which leads to burnout. DBD seems to have the problem of having only 1 meta strat available at any given time. Then the meta strat gets nerfed, and something else takes its place, putting us right back where we were. I mean heck, should we delete Plague? She deletes healing perks, so if you brought any heal perks you might as well attempt your Kobes and only hold M1 on gens, because you aren't allowed to have fun the way you wanted to that match.
4- I think people notice winning and losing slightly more than before, at a greater rate than people give credit. There was one patch where a mild nerf didn't go through, and the placebo effect of the nerf alone dropped winrates. (To be fair idr if that was this game or another I play[ed], but people were complaining on the forums regardless.) Just getting more people to play the 'lesser' Killers just because they see a bigger number on the gen kick screen might be enough to play them a bit more (even if BHVR doesn't actually alter the gen numbers).
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I would say in general, Blight isn't hated. I would say sweatlords are what are truly 'root cause' hated. Blight is so strong, that he attracts sweatlords (just as Billy now is attracting sweatlords). If you really like a good steak, but 20 greasy goobers wipe it between their pits, you probably aren't going to want to eat it. Since too many experiences with Blight are the pit-sweat stained version, they start to think that is all Blights, and don't take the chance on eating that steak.
I would say Nurse is truly hated even though she similarly attracts sweatlords. Nurse just disables most of your ability to play the game, and you have to play an entirely different game to beat her. I share the opinion she should be on a different launcher/only in customs, she is that unenjoyable to face.
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This is something that doesn't make sense to me. Insults are bannable as per the game rules, and when the Killer bled the last person out and types GG or the Survivor clicky clicky teabags at the exit gate and types the same, they are clearly doing it to insult/BM. At the same time, a normal match may have had annoying moments, and been ambiguous as to whether it was a 'glove touch' or insult. Waiting for the loser to say GG first makes it 100% in the clear.
Alternatively, I think we should just remove the foolish 'no insults' rule, because insults are too subjective to be a bannable cause. I find banter very enjoyable, and I don't consider banter to be actual insults, even if it may include them. At the same time you can say the meanest things under the 'kill them with kindness' guise, and you can't determine if the person is genuine or not. I personally take bleedout and tunneling at 5 gens GGs as insults, because you would have to be implying I am a complete and total idiot if you thought I would think it was a good/enjoyable match. -
@[Deleted User] said:
How about we just nerf the top 10 most picked perks for each side??
The problem is many of the strongest Survivor perks shore up design flaws (DS/OTR) and are easily avoided, or are the best of non-stackable alternatives (SB/DH). Deja Vu is the only perk buffed to stop 3-genning until a solution was found, and they added the regression limit, so Deja Vu should have the temporary buff removed now.
The strongest Killer perks are Stackable (PR and Pop, Lethal and BBQ and NtH, GE and Deadlock). The problem there is how they stack (other than aura perks, I think they are fine). Arguably I think we did the wrong nerf to 3 gens. I think we should have looked at total regression, not total events. Capping each gen at 100% regression max would be much better than 8 events total IMO. Gens being blocked needs a counter, even if gated behind a perk like say Repressed Alliance to allow for the removal of gen blocks.
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SWFs are only OP when they sweat, and SWFs rarely sweat. I had 5 games in a SWF the other night, and 2/5 matches someone brought No Mither, and the remainder of the games someone brought Invocation of Spiders. We had one 2 person escape as our best result that entire night (and one of the 2 people out was the random in a 3-man SWF, not even 2 SWF members).
When I play Killer, SWFs are easier to face usually because I can weaponize their empathy. They want their friends to have fun, so if I put a little pressure on the weak link, the other chains will fall and give me a free hit or waste pallets or whatever. Failure to adapt is a lack of skill. Soloq players are the true monsters. That Soloq player is out there! It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop... ever, until they clicky clicky t-bag you! They don't even care about each other, so why will they care about you?
You have to have 2 mindsets at the same time whenever you hit the "Play" button. 1: I can lose any match. There can be cheaters, or people way better than me, or I have to stop a fire where I live, or whatever. 2: I can win any match. I am human, which means I will make mistakes, which means I can learn from those mistakes and make better choices later in this match or for future matches. Also my opponents are human, which means they are just as prone to making mistakes as I am, so I have to do is outrun the other person, not the bear, or make less mistakes than my opponents.
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@DragonMasterDarren said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3742007#Comment_3742007
Well good thing then that MMR doesn't exist and has basically zero actual factor on game balance
@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3742009#Comment_3742009
This have been proven wrong so many times…
MMR does exist and does affect the game.
BHVR have even made adjustments with out saying anything, until the forums asked questions, as a result of the game balance changing. - then they came forward and told us that they did in fact make some adjustments.
I mean to oversimplify there are 2 MMR brackets, Lower (bottom 75%), and Top (upper 25%). That means that when someone is bragging they are 'Top MMR' everyone knows they are a joke (since in all likelihood everyone here with more than 100 posts has the hours alone to constitute 'Top MMR'). That also means that the majority of the playerbase (which isn't on the forums) has a very different experience than what the rest of us are used to.
@Coffeecrashing said:
Can we please normalize giving people a written summary of a video, instead of expecting them to watch an entire video?
The problem with summaries is the points of bias. If I like the idea in a video, I might gloss over the more foolish aspects of a suggestion, and focus on the good. At the same time if I think the OP or the video maker is a dumb-dumb, then I'll paint the arguments in as bad a light as possible. In this case, the video is 8 minutes long, which means if you watch it in 2x speed (like you really should for all Youtube content nowadays), it will only take you 4 minutes. I think 5 minutes is the line where someone can take the time to actually watch the video if you want to comment on the topic, otherwise the comment will be ill-informed. Just don't comment (and find another thread) if 4 minutes is too much of your time to become informed enough to make a comment.
@crogers271 said:
Conceptually, this seems like a good idea, but it creates a lot of potential issues.
1: Killer tiers - while there is agreement on the top and bottom of the scale, there is massive disagreement around the middle. Especially when factor in not just MMR, but the different regions.
2: Creates static killer meta. If we make the base kit really high to buff Trapper, then you create a meta where every Trapper runs gen kick perks to add on to that.
3: Some killers never kick. Nerfing some of the top killers gen kicks wouldn't matter, because using that time to kick is already kind of a waste when you could be chasing instead.
4: Easy to argue about, hard to notice. Slight nerfs / buffs are the things players love to argue about, and while they have effects overt the millions of DbD games that are played every week, most players wouldn't really notice. So no one is actually enjoying the game more, but the balance team is spending a lot of time on it.
2- I would argue this would be an improvement over the current state of the game. There was an older Scott joke video that describes this exact issue. (Spoiler the best build for every Killer currently is the same build.) This would merely change that each Killer has their own best build, so instead of 1 build (Pop+PR+GE+Deadlock) across all 30+ Killers, we might have 3 builds (Low/Medium/High Gen kick efficiency) across the same 30+ Killers. Even though it would still be 1 build per Killer, there would be enough of a playstyle difference between the 3 builds to feel like 3 different experiences. Not only that, but it would allow for greater Killer variety as well (instead of only the top 5 Killers in 90% of your matches).
4- I would notice significantly if I didn't have the same repeated Killers in every match over and over and over and over and over again. That is one of the major causes of burnout, is repetitive games.
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@nodforkiss said:
not running an item sounds like perfect counter to me
and he is using 2 slots of perks so less gen regression/block. u survivor mains wont stop until every perk gets taken away from killers.
Not running an item - Exactly
u survivor mains - Oh no, they are tribal in the opposite direction. Horseshoe theory rears its head again.
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Xeno was already proven to be mathematically undodgeable (only predictions), but even with correct predictions the Xeno could have simply held power and M1'd the Surv instead. Also Xeno was mathematically proven to consistently disable flame turrets on reaction M2 (without add-ons) as long as you aren't 50% slower than the average human (and as gamers we are typically faster than the average). Ping doesn't even matter because it is client sided.
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Ehh it would be fine to reveal SWF status if we also make it so that backing out of a lobby as Killer counts as 1/2 a leave for the DC queue penalty (and Survivor as 1/4), with backout penalties being applied when you reach the next full number. Killers lobby dodging are already ruining the matchmaking, and you are matchmade against the team you are SUPPOSED to go against, whether it be solos, double duos, or a 4-man.
The MMR is also already taking their dedicated 4-man advantages into account since they would have the higher escape rate. That means that SWFs are actually weaker than their equal MMR soloq counterparts, since the comms gave a fake MMR boost. (Eg. 1800 MMR soloq, or 1600MMR SWF + 200 comms bonus.) That means your chases as Killer are actually easier when going against SWFs.
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MMR is grossly flawed since it isn't a team metric. The raise/decrease applied to each person should be based on the number of Survivors killed/escaping, and not whether you personally were killed or escaped.
Right now the best move for both sides is to 99% their objective, then force the opponent to 'win' in endgame. Survivors are best served popping all the gens, opening all the gates, then hiding/dying in endgame. Killers are best served 2-hooking each Survivor, letting them open the gates, then forcing them all out, even if you have to pickup/drop at the exit gate itself. It gives you the knowledge of a win, but gives you the MMR of a loss.
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@ReikoMori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3732283#Comment_3732283
Killer bans is an idea that folks have been asking for, but it's a feature that would a poison pill for the game.
One of the things that DBD has going for it is that you can play whoever you want whenever you want. If you want to only get good at playing one killer then you can master that killer and comfortably know that you'll always be able to play that killer. They may not always have the same balance points that you like about them, but their general features will be there barring a few exceptions. Bans would force more killer diversity, but not in a good way. Bans in MOBAs work due to the sheer number of characters and the expectations that since you're filling a role within a team you will learn multiple characters who can fill that role. DBD doesn't really have roles which is something that in a way holds the game back on the survivor side, but is extremely pronounced for solo killers as well.
It takes a lot of time to learn killers in this game and the process of picking up a new killer is actually pretty bad for the average player. You immediately have to go into matches geared more towards your skill level with your main killer rather than lower tiered competition or just straight up bots. Like you can go to customs, but you don't gain any progression that way which ultimately is one of the most important things in DBD. Killer bans would just make people who play popular, strong, or hated killers not be able to play the game comfortably. A solo killer player would be eating 4 bans every match being allowed to pick or they would queue up only to discover they have huge waits between matches because the killer they play is getting mass banned. It's a quick way to drive a wedge between an already tribal playerbase.
Skull Merchant's stealth used to depend on her passing through her drones' detection field which made things much more fair in that regard. If you saw the drone you knew it was a place she was most likely to pass through if she was playing stealth builds. Merchant by default isn't really a stealth killer, she's a weird hodgepodge of mechanics and stealth just happens to be one she can make use of without as much hassle as relying on others. She would be more balanced as a tracking/stealth killer that was purely focused on only those two aspects, but the devs seem to want her to be a weird toolbox that only Pixelbush enjoys. Then again my main killer before SM was Legion so I've been through the hellscape of DBD reworks gone wrong a few times at this point so perhaps I'm overly jaded about the whole situation. Either way it's been a breaking point for me really engaging with the game on top of everything else.
I would argue that while each Killer may be unique, they still often have heavy similarities for a 'class' of Killer, like 'Stealth', 'Ranged', 'Mobility', 'overwhelming chase presence', with some overlap in all of those categories. Nonetheless, the vast majority of Killers can fall back on the 4.6 M1 standard. With that, you would only pick a 4.4 Killer if you had the confidence, or wanting to learn how to play them (just like now).
I highly doubt bans would significantly impact queue times, and even then, it would help prevent false start games (where one of the Survivors Kobes on first hook and dies at 5 gens). It may take the 4 minutes instead of 2 to find a match, but it will also mostly remove those false start games which cost you ~5-10 minutes of wasting time before you can even queue up for another match. Since the way I would implement bans is an option menu before you even click 'Play', it would never impact the pre-game lobby like other games' bans. I do agree it might hurt 1-tricks on off-hours, but if the opposing team wasn't going to even try against them in the first place, it means they were never denied a 'real' match, and only a 5-gen Kobe match that would waste their add-ons and offerings. That would be more useful, as it would let them know 'maybe you should play a different Killer, because no one wants to deal with that right now'. The only thing that player loses is fake matches, and I don't think that is a loss at all. The 'heal tome into Plague' is definitely something that should be addressed, either by fixing her kit, or in a universal way like bans. I've had sooooooo many teammates give up against Plague, and it usually is when a big heal tome is in the rotation (probably my single most frequent Kobe at 5 gens situation I've experienced, but that's anecdotal [hard DCs are taken by the 'Nurse blink at 3am']).
Overall I feel bans would significantly reduce the number of these 'false matches', which appear all too common now.
SM's OG stealth was fair with no sound cue, as keeping an eye on the drone boundaries was the counterplay. Current SM gets 8s/10s or 9.6s/10s of Undetectable uptime, or 36.8m/44.16m of silent walking distance per use, without even including perks for added confusion. SM is just a bad example though since it is probably the single worst designed Killer, even including old Freddy.
This is all getting off-topic though, so if you want to reply more on bans you can have the last word here or ping me in a new thread. If it is related to the whole tech/bug/exploit conversation then I'd be willing to continue this here though.
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The beta Wiggle skillchecks had the right idea. 16s normal, 15s if you hit EVERY Great check. It was just enough to feel meaningful, but not enough to prevent the majority of hooks, even with bodyblocks/sabos. Now they made Great checks useless other than the Survival BP.
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The sleeve bugging onto the hand happens often enough to be a nuisance. Having no visual cape flap would be a QoL buff for Ghosty, but I understand if it goes either way.
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@Emeal said:
Honestly the tools to prevent Tunneling should be in the Survivors not unhooking next to the Killer, or trying to take a hit after being unhooked. or waiting until the Killer is chasing someone else. Rather than punishing the Killer for playing the game.
Luckily the perk is nerfed next patch, cause bHVR could see it was too much.
The problem there lies in that the Survivors can't control the Killer's movement. I was running in the open, no pallet no windows, near a progressed gen, and the Killer still dropped chase to tunnel after unhook crossmap. The Killer always has a choice to chase the remaining 75% of the lobby, so punishing them for targeting 25% of the lobby is nowhere near punishing them for playing the game.
DS should be a 30s stun for Killer and Survivor at this point, and the Killer can always hit the tunneled Survivor after the stun. It would be more of a deterrent to needless tunneling than a 3/4/5s stun where the Survivor gets no meaningful distance. Alternatively if we are going to have a 3/4s DS, it should work after every hook stage.
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@Zaydin said:
Meanwhile, the few remaining viable Killer regression perks got hit with the nerf bat for poor reasons.
Everyone stacked them (as in used them both together)? That's a good reason. I would prefer they got a unique tag so that you can only benefit from one of the perks at a time, so the first of the two picked would work, and the 2nd would be a dead perk. They were fair independently, and only busted when stacked.
Was the nerf alone bad? No. Was the methodology bad? Yes. -
@ReikoMori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3727331#Comment_3727331
Trying to balance killers around tiers is bad way to approach design. Tiers are something that players derive based on their subjective experience with the game. Dbd is one of the few games where due to the nature of its gameplay there is rarely any natural shifting of perspectives on killers. Nurse isn't ever going to be a mid or low tier killer through nerfs as her base power is the absolute best power to have in this game. She's legit not playing the same dbd as any other killer because she can ignore terrain. Freddy's probably never going to be a high tier killer through buffs alone because his power gets weaker over the course of a match and losing mobilty/map pressure is one of the worst traits to have baked into a killer kit. That's why the best killers in the game all tend to have high mobility on demand as a key feature.
Like even Billy at his worst was still like a solid A tier killer imo due to the fact he was very fast on top of an instadown. The power a killer ships with is often very set in stone and then you get a bunch of number tweaks mainly to addons that ultimately doesn't change the overall inherent strengths and weaknesses of a power. If the powers aren't going to just go through sudden drastic changes on a regular basis then you need changes to basic universal gameplay.
The Final Challengers isn't well liked because it commits the cardinal sin of being a shallow cash grab that has even less features than original version of SF2 and adding things no one likes. It was a lackluster switch port all in all, I think the "newest" revision of SF2 Turbo pro players actually play with some passing regularity is maybe Turbo HD Remix which has its own set of issues. Most just play classic ST when they want to play ST. DBD on the other hand hasn't even made it to its ST era after 9 years and we've the benefit of being able to patch games without making a whole new arcade board or game cart. We've got plenty of new characters over time, but most actually share mechanics which isn't necessarily a bad thing. What is bad is that the core gameplay is a hindrance to innovating the ways in which players can engage with game. Hopefully the new mode menu will help with that, but this is something we should have been seeing experimented with years ago.
I wouldn't be so dead set on seeing weird janky pieces of tech held onto if there was a historical precedent in this game for things trending towards being fairly innovative. Yet, it's the opposite where players finding interesting things is tamped down and the game trends towards long term stagnation rather than some sort of reinvention. Number tweaks and slight effect changes can only do so much and the same loop/gen/chase structure can only be so fun. When we do get novel mechanics they often feel and look hamstrung by the basic gameplay if they fall outside of the couple handfuls of mechanics that we recognize as "known goods" in dbd. For me I've been engaging with the game in some way or another since just a few months after it launched till now. The last time I was dedicated to playing was when Skull Merchant released and stopped when she got reworked cause I think the rework solves none of her core issues and playing matches isn't fun when no matter what I do people still just give up the moment they see a merchant.
I don't mean to balance around tiers, because if we nerfed everyone from S-tier down, and buffed D-tier up, people would still expand the top of A tier to become the new 'S-tier'. Heck, even if everyone was within the current understanding of B-tier, people would still rank them sequentially and say the top X# are S and the bottom X# are D. I just mean the current lines in the sand most people tend to agree upon (Nurse is S, Tombstone-less Myers is D), still roughly compare to power levels and potential that should be adjusted. I'm just using a colloquial understanding as a shortcut for this paragraph of explanation, sometimes the explanation works, sometimes it doesn't. I think that overall that the current S and D tier shouldn't exist, and the bottom and top 5 should be regularly (at least every 6 months) rotated in and out through buffs and nerfs (both of buffs to the weakest, as well as middle power to top tier, and nerfs of top Killers to be weaker than mid tiers).
Freddy could be buffed to become more powerful instead of weaker as the game goes on, like his perks would also indicate. We could allow Freddy to TP to completed gens, but now it also puts the closest non-alarm clocked/sleeping Survivor to sleep as well. When you TP to a gen, it could also reveal the auras or do a Rancor styled info on people working gens (with or without an add-on for the intel), maybe also a shorter CD for TPs to completed gens. We could also make it so Freddy gets both Pools and Pallets, (like Clown Purple and Yellow Bottles) with 3 tokens per Pool, 2 per Pallet, with 15 tokens base (for the same current limits of 5 Pools/7 Pallets, or raise the base tokens to something like 18). I don't think we can just throw in the towel and say X Killer can never be balanced, especially with how the first half was simply things I thought of off the top of my head. (The Clown swap power buff I have suggested in the past.)
While I agree that Billy was far stronger than people previously gave him credit for (I've played both Blight and Billy as M1 only, power only to break pallets to see how Mobility is the greatest strength), people still ranked him at B-C tier prior to his last major update. That update was the exact type of update I would like to see more of for other commonly under-ranked Killers. For example people think Ghostface is super weak, but that is only true if you play him as 'Chaseface'. Playing him as a strategic Killer like Hag/Trapper where you set the traps on Survivors (99'd stalks) is far far far more effective, and I've had much above 'expected' kill rates (for all individual Killers, not even the average) with Ghosty when playing him in that style.
I don't know the full history of SF2, so I was relying on google averages, but I think your clarification still helps my point. I am of the opinion that 6.1 was a "Final Challengers" tier update, adding in a bunch of things no one likes for the sake of 'shaking things up'. Since we have to recover from those bad updates, we can never iterate from the best of updates that came before. Eg. Super Cool edition was a 9.2/10, and Super Uncool edition was a 8.9, they can still go back and improve from the 9.2 before with separate releases, and release Super Cooler edition with a 0.2 increase up to 9.4. DBD has to commit to the Super Uncool edition and slowly roll back the changes to get back to the 9.2 rated patch, and can't just start there fresh. Even if DBD did an equivalent Super Cooler update from the Super Uncool update, that would only raise us the same 0.2 from 8.9 to 9.1, instead of the 9.4 the separate release model offered Street Fighter. I would say overall though, that change is probably good overall for the sake of 'shaking things up', even if I think 6.1 truly failed to understand what made the game playable before its introduction, willing to take the risk and fail is better than perpetually playing it safe. The important part is to learn from failure, which with the map updates I would say it appears they aren't doing that very well.
I mean SM has a bunch of problems in terms of enjoying facing her. First off, she is a stealth Killer without sound cues, a big no-no. Myers, Dredge, Ghostface, Wraith, Sadako, all have sound cues to prevent stealth from being just stupid unfun, and SM doesn't. Also when you disarm the drone now, it lasts far too short, instead of say putting in back in the SM's inventory with a delay before redeployment. It currently just serves as a self-location snitch. You also can't remove scan stacks by doing anything, so it feels like there is no counter-play. With all that and more, I can understand when Survivors go "Oh you didn't want me to enjoy playing the game huh? Fine right back at you.". I just wish there were Killer bans to prevent the worst scenarios like that, or doing a heal tome running into a Plague, or a pallet stun tome running into a ranged Killer. It just makes people have a 'go-next' mindset that is poisoning the game right now (and too many poorly designed Killers that either are unfun or only draw in sweatlords). While I think bans would improve match quality, I think Killers should also get map bans to match, both to feel more 'fair', as well as to prevent Autohaven for Stealth Killers, or Indoor maps for Ranged Killers, and equal measure "gosh darn it I'm just gunna go next" hinderance for Killers.
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@Paternalpark said:
Soloq is unbearable. The longer I play the worse my teammates get.
People don't waste their time starting up a game to just leave for the sake of it.
Fix the game for the majority of the playerbase, is that too much to ask?
The largest reason I've seen for soloq being so bad is the raw amount of 'throw-tomes', where someone is literally just going into the match to throw the match for everyone else to get their tome done at all costs. Looking at Tome 18, we have significantly reduced the number to 1-3 per tome tier, but that doesn't stop players finishing up older tomes.
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@Pulsar said:
We add a reasonable comeback mechanic for Survivor.
The match can often feel over due to either the oppressive nature of some Killers, a matchmaker mismatch, the prevalence of anti-gen perks, the prevalence of certain exceedingly effective playstyles or plain bad luck.
This should be remedied. Just as Killers often stage a comeback over time, Survivor should be given a reasonable, I stress that word, ability to recover from early-game issues.
I think a comeback mechanic is important for both sides, to keep things always 'winnable'. I always like the idea of basekit NOED (with 0 kills going into endgame) for Killer. Fairly simple, and pre-cleansing totems takes roughly 1 extra gen's worth of time.
Survivor is significantly more complicated. At first maybe an action speed boost after (early) deaths might work, but that falls apart if there is enough pressure from the Killer such that 1 is on hook, 1 in chase, and 1 going for the rescue. Survivor ghosts might be a way to keep the 4 Survivor threat, but that would likely be too difficult to implement at this stage. Personally I liked the pre-Mikaela hatch (especially since we now know that Hatch is a tie, not a win for Survivor). Old hatch allowed for a tunneled early kill potentially be punished if someone brought a key. It was anticlimactic, but so is ending someone game so early, so fighting fire with fire.
Some basic QoL for both sides (imo) should be bans. Survivor (maybe only soloq) can ban 1 per 5 Killers released, and Killer the same rate for maps (or realms, not sure, realms helps more against Badham, maps can help ban indoor maps for ranged and open maps for stealth). I personally hate Plague and Oni (both punished by bad teammates far more than normal), and I hate Autohaven (too open+short loops), so my biggest pain points are greatly exaggerated with those conditions. Imo if the bad parts occur less common, people are less likely to be burnt out and ever reach that 'fudge it go next' mindset. -
@ReikoMori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3723622#Comment_3723622
Disabling gen regression after a kill instantly creates an inevitability scenario that would place too much pressure on killers. It's a reverse snowball that rather than causing the game to rubberband would just incentivize one side avoiding doing their objective in a timely manner unless they were already playing a killer who actually can thrive without gen regression. Basekit NOED is one of the biggest band aid fixes people have thrown around for years. It's lowkey kinda insane to get to endgame with zero kills and be handed innate NOED which as a base mechanic either has to be strong enough to truly be game changing or weak enough to only offer a bare advantages. It feels weird to place survivors is a situation where they can suddenly go from handily winning to being at an extreme disadvantage without some sort of investment of resource from the killer. It also feels like to trash to get what amounts to pity buffs that don't really help your situation if you're a killer who is losing. DBD has comeback mechanics already, but the design of the game doesn't really allow for a back and forth because the sides aren't meant to be on equal footing. So comebacks either succeed in grand fashion or they fail outright.
The recent changes to the game have further cemented the fact that having a back and forth style of gameplay isn't seen as desirable. Caps to gen regression means that killers are hard limited how much they can impose their will on the game in regards to undoing progress. That's a direct statement that no matter what after a certain point the survivors will complete their objective and preventing it can only be done by kills. It makes sense to do this with the issues for 3 gens and general game stalling, but removing gameplay whether intended or unintended by design further sets the game in stone. Having more modes would be great, but the gameplay loop is still largely the exact same as it has been and we're now 9 years into the life span of this game with little to show for it in terms of mechanical depth and skill expression. New intentional mechanics are rarely added to the game and when they do get added they usually get absolutely decimated or they're too clunky to be with the time investment. Things players figure out for themselves and get a lot of value out of using either for fun or competitive advantage get removed as well.
So what are we gaining? 2v8 is still more of the same DBD, but with an extra killer in the mix. That isn't a substantial addition because the base game is still losing depth rather than embracing it in any meaningful way. Tech can keep players interested a bad game, but it can also keep players interested in good yet stale and flawed game as well. DBD is at its core a good game, but it has grown very stale and is taking too long to iterate on its formula. SF2 had around 28 iterations of itself by the time Capcom finally moved on from it to work on the Alpha series of SF. Each one keeping the core gameplay, but adding something to it or adjusting the balance. In DBD we get regular balance changes, but we also get more subtractions of things than additions. Even when intentional mechanics get handicapped or outright cut post introduction to the live game. If the expectation is that this sort of philosophy is going to make the game better then time hasn't proven that to be true. 9 years in and we have less overall freedom within the game than at any other point in the game's history.
Even truly exciting new additions like Vecna's mechanics are hard to get excited about because we've seen how the devs handle things that either perform too well or allow players to get too creative on their own. I also agree that survivors need a more dynamic objective and have been suggesting for years that they should have at least part scavenging mechanic to repair gens rather than just holding down a button for a minute.
Comeback mechanics - I disagree that it will cause a side to finish their match out in a timely manner, I have been 6-8 hooking before my first kill for the majority of my Killer career. The only reason I say 6-8 is because sometimes you get the 1 rat player who will hide no matter what, and then they complain I tunneled them (for their 2nd stage going from 7 total hooks to 8) when their entire team was death hook. I do agree it can be too swingy, but I would want to test something out at the very least. This is a way to potentially influence the match timing that doesn't involve significant changes like say generator parts and other suggestions to alter the game flow. It uses an existing mechanic, could easily be thrown in a PTB (like the UB Mori finisher PTB where it is being made clear it is to test and test only, but sadly it sounds like they might be going through with the Mori finisher that was universally rejected by the playerbase).
Stale gameplay - I partially agree and partially disagree. We still have no solution for base game flaws, that's true. We also get new mechanics to both play as, and play against, in the form of a new Killer. The problem stems from the same Killers being bottom of the barrel, and the same Killers being the best. The not too insignificant nerfs to Blight, and the significant buffs to Billy keep the game fresh. I'd love to see another patch where Freddy and Nurse trade effective spots as well (even if Blight wasn't nerfed to Billy's old level). I still can't play with friends to this day though because they don't like the game. Why don't they like the game? Because they get tunneled out at 5 gens since we have a (~) 100hr/500hr/1000hr/>2k hr split. The Killers ALWAYS (in terms of per session, not per match, but negativity bias makes it feel like every match) turbo tunnel the 100hr and 500 hr players, even when I'm trying to run interference, take chase, making loud noises while the Killer isn't in chase, and so on.
Techs keep interest - I would agree this keeps interest, but in such a small percentage of the population that it isn't going to help. This is largely going to help only the top 1% of skilled players, and even then not all of the members within that population. Also SF2 did have a massive amount of different versions, but from googling, Turbo was the best version, the one that came out in 1994. That means every iteration after Turbo was bad (in comparison to Turbo itself). They had the advantage of separate releases, we don't. I don't want to run the risk of losing what might be DBD's Turbo, to get 2017's Ultra Street Fighter 2: The Final Challengers (one that showed up frequently as one of the worst SF2 remake versions, but I'm not in the Fighting game sphere, it might actually be the pro's favorite version). I think variety is the best way to keep interest, and I think the Chaos Shuffle is a good type of variety. The Killer effectiveness shakeups is another good way, as long as we mostly buff the bottom 5 and nerf the top 5. (I think we have Killers ranging from S-D tier, and S and D tiers shouldn't exist.)
Perform too well/Creative on their own - I mostly disagree here. Someone could make the argument the Potential Energy bug was players 'getting creative', and that's the argument I make for Oni flicks. Both bugs are people abusing a bug to bypass a limitation, for the detriment for the opposite side. The only difference is the minimum skill level to execute the bug. The effectiveness gained is too high in both cases for the effort put in. Oni is supposed to have restricted mobility during Demon Dash, just as Toolboxes are supposed to lose charges, and a bug bypassing those limitations is bad for the game. I'd be willing to try a gen parts mechanic, but to implement it correctly would likely need more testing and R&D than BHVR would be willing to put in.
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@supersonic853 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3723631#Comment_3723631
Uhuh…. (BTW there's none beside me either. Apparently most of the hooks spawned upstairs) also you try to go to a hook. Almost get there. Then have a survivor run out infront of you, insta sabo the hook, And run away. See what happens. If you drop they wiggle out. If you don't. There's probably no hook within a few meters for you to get to. The speeds so fast a survivor can literally take the hit. Sabo mid weapon clean. And run away before the killers even finished. Also even if you do insta drop them. You probably can't pick them back up so might as well just slug them. Because unless you chase the survivor away and down them they'll just keep trying to come back to sabo the hook again.
There is (99% likely) one directly above you, or the basement is 2 inches to your right (rarely both, but possible). Then there is also going to be one in the left hallway, furthest by the next corner. Then there is also going to likely be 1 or 2 in the middle courtyard. Also there are 2 dead Survivors, which means you likely killed one of them down this very hallway and their death got rid of the hook. Not panning and showing all directions just tells me that even on the most unfavorable map for Killer, they can still reach a hook safely. This requires mild gamesense, but I think that isn't a big ask.
@HexHuntressThighs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3723631#Comment_3723631
You got a lot wrong in that comment. Sabotaging takes 6 charges a Purple tool box which sabos 50% faster has 16 charges so I can sabotage just shy of 3 times. The green commodious tool box has 32 charges so it can sabo 5 times. Add in built to last and it can sabo 10 times. Add in street wise and it can sabo 15 times. Thats without charge add ons.
Not to mention the PTB Purple tool box is going up to 100% sabo speed and the green box is going up to 50% Not only that but you can not sabo three hooks currently and the killer still end up hooking. Its two at most in 99.99% of case and 3 in nieces scenarios where the killer brought the hook offering on an indoor map.
And on live the toolbox is actually a risk where you have to take a hit to get the sabo or else the killer will just go somewhere else. On the PTB there is no risk at all. You can easily sabo a hook without the killer being able to even get close enough to swing. Then when they look for a different hook you get in front of them with breakout and get to the next hook and save it easily as well.
It needs nerfed plain and simple. Tool boxes need nerfed overall anyways. I can bring a 4 man commodious double charge add ons with all 4 running BTL and SW and clear all 5 gens in less the 5 minutes. Survivors say they can’t win but if they did that every game they would win almost every time.
I wasn't wrong, I was unclear with my phrasing. The purple I was referring to was the Alex's Toolbox which (currently) has 24 charges default. When I was saying 'can be done once per game' I was referring to a triple sabo, taking 18 of the 24 charges if Purple (Alex, not Engineer). Same with the 32 charge boxes and triple sabo's, just shy of 2(x3), as it would take 36 charges for 2 triple sabos. I won't double check your math on BTL+Streetwise, but the issue is if someone is spending that much to sabo, when they could have used that on pumping gens instead, then it still nets positive for Killer.
The Alex's proposed change also nerfs the charges for no good reason, especially since the Commodious is getting the same additive sabo buff without a charge nerf. I can't speak to your experiences with sabos, but I know the last session I played intending to sabo, I got 3 sabos in a single carry twice, and both times the Killer was still able to hook. I had Saboteur and Background Player (and probably BTL+Streetwise, but idr those two), and that still wasn't enough to sabo enough hooks. I probably only unshouldered a Survivor from Sabos once that entire session, and that was a skill issue on that particular Killer's part (spun in a circle for the first 5s of carrying couldn't decide where to go).
On live you are guaranteed a double hit if you attempt to sabo (mostly due to lag). If the Killer hits you during the sabo, you don't have enough time to run away after restarting and finishing the sabo the 2nd time, and I was even spamming DH (animation frequently goes out but no Endurance due to lag). I haven't played with the PTB speeds, but anything faster is going to be an improvement into making it viable instead of trolling. One of the problems was back in 6.1 they buffed the Killer hit CD from 3s to 2.7s, but they didn't drop the sabo speed equally from 3s to 2.7s. Sabo buffs are a LONG time coming. Saboteur was 2.5s with a 3s hit CD, so .5s wiggle room for lag. It now is 2.3s with a 2.7s hit CD, so .4s wiggle room for lag, or still in a nerfed state. Current Alex and proposed Commodious take 2s to sabo, with the same 2.7s hit CD, or .7s wiggle room for lag. The proposed Alex puts it at 1.5s to sabo, or finally viable with 1.2s difference of hit CD and sabo time. To be fair, once again, I haven't played the PTB with this speed, but on paper it seems fine. I have only seen the complaints come from people who think sabo is actually useful in Live, so I know their complaints aren't grounded in reality.
I used to think Toolboxes needed gen nerfs, but then I realized their charges don't work the way all other items do. I thought a basic Commodious gave 32s (at 1 charge/second) of 50% bonus speed, in which I agree would need a nerf. Instead however, it measures total charges completed with a 50% speed boost, which roughly works out to ~21s to put on 32 charges, or only saving ~11s. Once I found that out, I stopped thinking they need a nerf since they come 'pre-nerfed'. Sabos will always be a healthier use for toolboxes, because it forces both sides to interact. The Killer has the choice to drop or keep carrying, and the Survivor has the choice to risk a protection hit, or a down in order to get a sabo. Plus it slows down the match timer, which helps Killers more due to pallets being finite.
Using the "everyone bring sweatlord strats" is such a joke argument. Should we delete any Killer that has someone reach 500 winstreak (3k+) since they can win almost every time? Same logic. Plus most times Killers only run into 1 person doing that, which isn't nearly the problem it is complained to be.
As a partial aside, I'd take the removal of gen repairs for toolboxes if they deleted gen slowdown/regression for perks (with an exception for Corrupt Intervention since it has its own built in limitations). That way the weaker Killers can get the gen slowdown from their add-ons alone, and stronger Killers rely on their strength to end the match sooner instead. -
@Junylar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3723636#Comment_3723636
There can only be 1 extra health state for Survivors because of the (partially foolish) Deep Wound change.
1 from endurance, 1 from a teammate bodyblocking with endurance, 1 with DS, 1 with styptic, 1 with FTP, 1 with endurance from FTP, 1 from a flashlight save, 1 from a Boil Over + Breakout combo, 1 from a sabo teammate, and I probably missed a few. So just earning a single hook might take you a dozen of hits in total if you play against SWF.
targeting the remaining 75% of the lobby
If you spread the hooks, you loose miserably with 8 hooks and 4 escapes (and a bunch of teabags at the gate, too).
As far as sabo, the maps are designed so that you need 3 sabos before the Killer is remotely threatened
Play a few games against a 4man and then you will have some idea how it actually works. Because reading
and the Killer can still simply drop the Survivor safely
makes it clear that you never actually played against those kind of players. Pro tip: if you drop a survivor you have been carrying for a while, instead of falling on the ground he instantly wiggles off. That's how it works.
List of 'extra health states': Endurance (we'll assume basekit BT): Actual extra health state, we are at 1. Teammate bodyblocking: not the Survivor's extra health state. If you view the entire team as having 8 health, the first bodyblock still reduces total health to 7. Not an extra health state. DS Avoided by targeting 75% of the lobby, or even if the Killer doesn't know where anyone is, they know there was a hook rescuer, so still minimum 50% of the lobby. Denying the perk provides more value when the Killer doesn't rely on tunneling. Not an extra health state unless I can count running into walls intentionally as 12 extra health states for Survivors (you can, but then I can see I am not talking to someone who uses their brain). Styptic already covered as not stacking with Endurance, since it doesn't stack, doesn't count. FTP: If they are close enough to FTP+BU, they were close enough to give the Killer a free hit. Only an extra health state against unaware/unskilled Killers, since I assume you are skilled, 0 extra health states. Flashlight/pallet save is countered by looking at a wall, taking the free hit from a hovering Surv, or just general brain usage. Again, only an extra health state against unaware/unskilled Killers, since I assume you are skilled, 0 extra health states. Boil Over+Breakout, if the Killer knows where a single hook is, this doesn't work. Yet again, only an extra health state against unaware/unskilled Killers, since I assume you are skilled, 0 extra health states. Sabos: Maps are currently designed such that I can sabo 3 hooks (in the Killers rough path) and they can still get the hook on the 4th. Not an issue unless the Killer killed someone on a corner hook already, or wasted unnecessary time spinning in a circle for 8 seconds before walking in any direction. To end with one final only an extra health state against unaware/unskilled Killers, since I assume you are skilled, 0 extra health states, for 1 total extra health state.
Spread hooks for 8 hooks before a kill = lose: False premise to begin with, but you don't even need to spread them that much. You can hook Surv A then B then A then B the A then B and get your 6 hook 2k. More importantly, I can regularly (more than half of matches) get my 6-8 hooks before I get my first kill, and that's as Ghostface. If you personally are having trouble, I suggest you record your matches and see what could have been done better in both macro and micro senses. Should you return to hook to punish a late rescue? Should you avoid kicking this pallet at this time? Should this gen be kicked at all? Should you have zigged when you zagged? I did that without recordings because I generally am critical enough of my failings to know when I made a mistake. Recording it forces you to confront the reality of the match and what you did wrong, because we are all human, we will be wrong at least once in a match.
Play against a few (sabo) 4 mans: Yeah they die easier than normal matches. I've played against them plenty of times. They end up with 2-3 slugged while I wait for the last Surv to pop up, or the 25s ago sabo'd hook to respawn (waiting in case they had the 45s total add-on). Generally not a problem. Most SWFs are goofing off with friends, and trolling each other more than you as Killer. Obviously you haven't dropped Survivors (properly) if you think they ALL get unshouldered, instead of it adding ~20% to the wiggle bar, which means the Killer knows anything shy of ~13s is a safe drop. They now have to remain slugged for ~30s before someone else can pick them up, and if a teammate tried to heal them, they had to run past you chasing the other saboteur likely giving up a free hit in the process. Plus a Surv sabo-ing is a Surv not working gens. The game taking longer is better for Killer since pallets are a limited resource. These matches are only harder for people without the ability to understand the macro effects of the Survivors giving the Killer a free slug for pressure, a free chase, and often a free injury. The best way to learn a counter, is to attempt it yourself, and see how your opponents beat it (if they can) when you use it. I did that (and keep trying to do that) with sabos, and find more and more and more and more counters. When I did that with old Blight, I found no such counters as I would win without even trying.
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@Junylar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3717110#Comment_3717110
Only after they remove all 15 extra health states for survivors. Slugging works so fine because most of survivors' god-mode perks, which they like to abuse for bodyblocking, activate after unhooks, and some really BMing perks work only when you pick up a body. The infamous sabo build many bully squads abuse is also countered by slugging and by slugging only, and I don't need to remind you about flashlight saves. They gave survivors so much literal immunity that slugging seems to be the only viable option how to play against SWF and not feel miserable and humiliated for the whole trial.
There can only be 1 extra health state for Survivors because of the (partially foolish) Deep Wound change. There should be unlimited stacking Endurance for anti-tunnel, but DH/Styptic stacking has long been dead. All of these 'god mode perks' are disabled by the Killer using their brain for more than 3 miliseconds by targeting the remaining 75% of the lobby. Heck, someone just unhooked that person, and the Killer can bypass these anti-tunnel protections by targeting a bare minimum of 50% of the people they know the location of instead. I don't understand how this is such a herculean task for so many people. Even if I turn off my brain, I can still win that worst-case coinflip the majority of the time without even trying.
As far as sabo, the maps are designed so that you need 3 sabos before the Killer is remotely threatened, and the Killer can still simply drop the Survivor safely. Even if we were to go to the extreme and pretend everyone is bringing Mettle of Man, that still means they gave the Killer 3 free hits, and 3 heals taking 16*3 or 48s total, not even to mention the travel time between the protections and heals. If I have someone giving me a free minute being useless instead of pumping gens, I praise them for being a goof. If I lose to that, I'm only potentially humiliated at being so bad that I lost an effective 3v1 from the start.
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@HexHuntressThighs said:
You shouldn’t be able to save a hook for free. Current sabo basically requires you to get hit to sabo and get the save. PTB sabo you can run past the killer sack the hook and run to another hook and sabo it for free.
Not sure why we are incentivizing slugging and making it harder to hook when survivors are complaining about slugging so much.
Current map designs allow for 3 consecutive sabos and for the Killer to still get a hook, and that's ignoring the Killer being able to safely drop Survivors anytime prior to ~13s of being carried. This also can only be done once per match with a Purple, and just shy of twice per match with a Commodious/Event toolbox. That also means the Toolbox didn't shave ~20s of gen time, and the person was off of gens that time to prep the sabos. The math is still so far in favor of Killer for Survivors to sabo vs pump gens that it is hilarious.
People mainly complain about slugging when they don't have agency. Being in the middle of the map with the choice to recover on the spot, or crawl further from a hook, gives them the agency they need to not hate it. Its mostly sweating for the 4k when the Killer has 0 idea where the 4th is at when people complain about slugging.
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@AMOGUS said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3719506#Comment_3719506
Yeah, so, hug tech was perfectly fine and Oni flicks are fine because Oni is M1 70% of the time, "exploits" should not be removed if one's reasoning for "not finding them fun" is because "you suck at the game" or "you have 10 hours total", not because it's actually uncounterable like shooting through the map.
Also, to add onto Reiko's point, Smash Ultimate off the top of my head has several techs that remained in the game even upon discovery like Bayonetta double witch twist, slingshot was also unintended yet is considered skill. You mentioned wavedashing but there's more to it. OW2 also had the Mercy jump tech that was made basekit upon discovery by the devs.
Also, since the reason why people really hate hug tech is because "it stops me from doing the same thing I do against every Killer aka hug an obstacle for gens, then teabag after I drop the pallet", people will complain about Billy flick and demanding he be nerfed next as soon as people switch to him after the top tiers are gutted. Huntress and her orbitals would also be considered a problem if it was more common.I see you don't/haven't play/(ed) Oni in soloq, where he has power in chase 80%+ of the relevant time. The only way to have less power is if you are greeding for a 4 slug, or using power for exclusive mobility, or other misuses of his power, in which case it is merely a 'skill dif git gut' circumstance. His 1-hit down is balanced around the limitations, so bypassing the limitations with a bug exploit should remove the benefit. That's why Oni flick should either be removed, or basekitted with Dashes no longer instadowning.
Wasn't Bayonetta beyond broken in Ultimate? Like 2 tiers above all other characters? That sounds like a perfect comparison for Blight, so I think that is good bugtech was removed, to put the character in line with the rest of the cast.
People hate bugtech because it removed a limitation of the power's usage, not because whatever 'the other side revels in my misery' victim complex that made up quote contained. It countered the main counterplay of Blight's normal power usage, and would put Survivors into scenarios where there was no way to outplay. If I run out and away, the Blight (with normal human reaction speeds) could peel out and still get the hit, so it was a free-win for Blight (at short loops where the Blight can see). I honestly think it would have been fine to keep if he went back to the groin height camera like it was bugged on release. That would have been a fair tradeoff for the power to be gained.
@ReikoMori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3719506#Comment_3719506
As long as you frame everyone using a tech you don't care for as an exploiter you're going to reach the conclusion that nothing is valid tech.
A vast majority of popular mechanics did indeed start out as bugs and glitches, but that isn't to say that every basic function started that way. That's not even something I claimed yet you chose to argue against the hyperbolic statement you made. "Popular mechanics" isn't anywhere near all encompassing and I would hazard to say that when people think of popular mechanics they are thinking of something a bit more involved than simple running and jumping.
i also said that things that are legitimately problematic absolutely should get patched. Like if something is gamebreaking or so disruptive to normal play that there is no means to balance it out then obviously it has to go. In DBD's case we have precedent that shows that flicks aren't gamebreaking nor due they rise to an extreme level of disruption. That's why Billy got his back, that's why Oni continues to have his so why exactly is there a need for Blight and now Chucky to lose their flicks? Blight losing his isn't really going to affect him all that much most likely as strong killers tend to be pretty impervious to nerfs. It does make a group of people happy and flattens the game out.
DBD is in need of depth and generally fun little things for people do with their characters on both sides. Rarely does survivor actually get new tech and killers are starting to lose tech at about the same rate they gain tech. Rather than we as players constantly wanting this removed and the devs actually removing things it would be more beneficial to embrace some of this tech and find ways to apply it across the game in a balanced way. It shouldn't just come down to picking a smaller group to irritate because if that is the kind design philosophy at play then what's the point in anyone getting into this game if they gravitate towards the "smaller group"?
Tech is one of the things that can keep players invested in even a bad game.
Good, because I haven't been doing that. I don't call things techs, I don't redefine what they actually are, I don't use the thinly veiled coat of paint other people put on them. That means I can have nuance and allow some, allow some with tradeoffs, and disallow others, instead of blindly allowing all of them carte blanche.
Is jumping not a popular mechanic? Do people not get disappointed when the latest game doesn't have it? That isn't hyperbole if I proved it to be true. I'm using "popular mechanic" to encompass any facet of gameplay that people enjoy, a 'mechanic' that is 'popular'. You might be using "popular mechanic" to specify anything that isn't a core mechanic, and that is just us not using the same language. If we were to use your definition, then the bugs lose their bug status in the next game, so SF2 it was a bug, and SF3 it is a basekit mechanic, not a bug. It never was a bug in SF3, because they found a way to integrate it into the game without the problems that were coupled with in before. Sprinting may be coming from the bug of older games allowing 'W' and 'D' movement at the same time, giving a diagonal speed of sqrt(2) ~1.41, which roughly compares to the 35% and 50% common sprint speeds seen today. I guess to rephrase my point, former bugs inspire similar mechanics to be basekitted, not the direct adaptation of the bug itself.
Everyone who lost their flick only lost it because it was never intended for the level of power they bring to the table. Chucky was busted with his flicks, and not intended, Blight was busted with his flicks, and not intended, Oni is busted with his flicks, and not intended, Billy is good/great with his flicks, and not (originally) intended. The difference between them is both the power level (Billy being fair), and how easy the bug was to fix (Chucky had the design eyes still on him, Blight finally got major focus to reign in his power, Oni is still ignored).
I do agree there needs to be more fun opportunities for both sides (although mostly for the M1 simulator that is Survivor atm, I can still have fun chasing as Killer). I don't think bug depth is how we should reach that though. We should make the core loop more enjoyable, or add gameplay elements or modes like the 2v8 mode. I think the game is too set in stone, once your side starts to win, you can't really lose. We need more rubberband/comeback mechanics. Basekit NOED if you go into endgame with 0 kills, disable gen regression after a kill, these would allow the other side to still have a chance and be willing to play the game when most people would want to afk/give up on hook instead.
It may be true that 'Tech' can keep players invested in a bad game, but shouldn't we make the game better instead of dealing with a lesser evil like many of these are?
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@ReikoMori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3717663#Comment_3717663
The vast majority of popular game mechanics across multiple genres often started out as unintended exploits/bugs/glitches/player interactions.
When your playerbase finds interesting ways to engage with the game that express a deeper level of skill and understanding of the underlying systems of your game you're always gonna have to weigh the pros and cons of removing it carefully. Whether it be hug tech, flicks, moonwalks, crouch techs, 360s, wallbangs(blinding through slotted surfaces), etc. they're all forms of skill expression that add depth to the game and a large amount of the playerbase enjoy both seeing and using. DBD has a history of rather than choosing to make these things proper parts of the game they instead either remove them or stifle them to near uselessness. There are ways to adjust the game to accommodate these "techs" while keeping the game balanced.
Fighting games originally were not made with combos as we understand them today in mind. When players first started to really do long strings of attacks in SF2 it was straight up unintended by the devs. Rather than squash the "tech" and force players to lose skill expression that they were having fun with. They made adjusts to the game overall in the future revisions to enshrine the ability of characters to combo attacks together as part of the normal design then balance it so everyone could do with a decent level of consistency. Players who were better at the game would get more mileage out of it, but since it was made a natural part of the game it made it easier to balance in the long run. It became a genre defining mechanic that fundamentally changed the genre for the better.
Shooters are notorious for exploits and glitches that ended up becoming tech that is considered benchmarks for how well you understand the functions of the game. IR shots, drop shots, cross map knife ricochets, wiggling(found in shooters with leaning mechanics while aiming), etc. Stuff that now gets celebrated and widely used that used to be just straight up bugs and unintended design quirks. The devs choose to more often than not embrace these things turn them into proper codified and balanced mechanics rather than just denying them outright.
DBD by comparison goes the abnormal route of and flattening out the game's skill expression and time after time just straight taking away genuinely fun things. Like I'm all for fixing actually problematic bugs that destroy the spirit of the game no matter which side they benefit, but the only thing keeping this game going is the fact that it is unchallenged in its genre and the licenses it has access to. When people look up DBD content these days they get tons of videos seeing genuinely fun and funny stuff that gets them excited to play the game only to then get the game and find out that most of it has been patched out or nerfed into the ground.
Vast majority of popular mechanics started as exploits/bugs/glitches - I'm sorry this is ridiculous hyperbole. What, was jumping in its own right a glitch? Was damaging specific bodyparts (aka headshots) doing more damage a glitch? Did moving faster with a button/double input to activate 'running' mode start as a glitch? While there may be offshoots of these respectively such as bunnyhopping, richochets bouncing to multi-tap hitboxes, and wavedashing, the base mechanic was already enjoyable without the hyperspecific bug/exploit for the new 'tech'. To be generous, I would give a maximum of 10%, and that is far more generous than I should ever be. This gives far too little credit to all the mechanics put into games that we enjoy, as if a noise to cue getting a reward wasn't planned. Essentially you have to play a game that intentionally makes movement clunky and bad to enjoy good movement. the newer RE engine games are a perfect example of bad floaty movement, when we had Rev2 and Res6 with clean(er) movement, or even the OG RE games with responsive fluid movement, which is still used in games as late as OG4 and RE5.
Weigh pros and cons of remove or basekit - See my final paragraph of my previous post, already covered. (Short version being Billy flick was fun, basekitted, Blight flick+faceslide wasn't, thus removed.)Fighting games/comboes, future revisions - The difference being here, is both versions exist at the same time. I can buy the OG Street Fighter, or the original release of SF2, or the latest remake/remaster. You can have your cake and eat it when there are different versions/revisions. Someone who likes the mechanic can play the version that they like, and someone who doesn't like the mechanic can play the version they like. Here, we have to pick someone to irritate, and someone to please (or more accurately try to figure out which group is smaller and irritate them). We only have 1 version of DBD, unless they allowed for greater customization in KWF. If I could roll back patches in customs, then I wouldn't have issues with this, and it would be even better if you could customize which version of various things are allowed (maybe 80s gens, with 5% regression on kick, with Blight flicks, with 200% Ruin), but we can't do that sadly.
Shooters with exploits and glitches becoming the norm - This suffers massive survivorship bias. How many of these bugs and exploits were patched out of future iterations because they caused negative backlash also? I remember glitching out of maps and shooting people from the outside (since outer wall collision was unidirectional), and that was fun for me, and bullschenanigans for my opponents. I remember glitching the physics engine to hop on top of a beam that couldn't be reached normally, and if I did that with a sniper, it was a free win. Both of these were fun for the bug exploiter to use, but weren't adding to the game at large to be more fun or fair, so they should be removed. Sadly people view many of these exploits as the 'good ones', and that IMO is what Blight/Oni bug abuses are/were. Oni shouldn't be able to 1-hit down with 180 turning (Left/Right, full 360 coverage), he should only be able to hit 90 degree turning (Left/Right, for 180 degree coverage). If his flick is basekitted, IMO he should lose the ability to instadown with Demon Dash, and only keep instadown on the Charged M1 without sprinting.
DBD flatten's skill expression by removing fun things - Again, fun for the exploiter, not the recipient on the other side. Should we remove the entity block on windows? That was a mechanic added to prevent fun for the exploiter at the cost of health for the game, just as Blight and Oni flicks did/do. Billy's flick on the other hand was fun enough for everyone to basekit, so not all exploits are removed. You can still see this infinite vault partially happen on Dead Dawg's infinite, and Hawkin's infinite (both against M1 Killers mostly). Should every map get an 'infinite'? Something 'fixed' that I disagree with is invisible walls added EVERYWHERE on 2nd stories. The 'problem' there is falling onto loops from above (which was hyper rare and too specific to matter IMO), and instead of fixing it on the problem's end (adding cone hitboxes onto loops so you would slide off), they just added invisible walls any and everywhere you can gain altitude, especially where it doesn't make sense (bug report I posted with YT vid of invisible wall). Essentially there was 2 ends of the problem, and they picked the wrong end to fix.
As far as people looking things up to have fun in DBD, there are more than enough core problems with the game that have gone unaddressed for nearly 8 years now that you don't need to pretend exploits are saving the game. We still have no method to deal with bleedouts other than "just wait 4m LOL". We still have no method to deal with 2 Survivors holding the game hostage other than "just record at least 10 minutes of gens being not worked and report them LOL". There are plenty more massive problems, and little to nothing is done to fix the worst of experiences for both sides. That is far more likely the cause of people being turned off of the game, and the direct cause of 4/5 people IRL that I know that have quit the game for any period of time (the last being "I play the first month of a cool Killer/Survivor/Perk then wait until the next content drop with something cool", invocation of spiders was his last 'cool' thing then soft quit again).
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@FrostySeal said:
So every form of Blight's 180-degree flicks and slide tech have been patched out effectively gutting him in terms of fun even though it wasn't overpowered. If the Dev's reasoning behind this is that it wasn't intended, why then is Oni's 180 degree flick still in the game? Why can Wesker continue to have his own slide tech? Better yet, why does Hillbilly still have his flick? That was never intended either and was removed in a far earlier patch but due to community backlash was brought back. What about Huntress's hatchet hitbox? Wasn't that also patched out in an earlier patch and then reversed because of community backlash? Then doesn't that mean that BHVR's whole argument of it not being intentional means absolutely nothing as long as the community screams at them enough?
So what exactly makes a tech need to be removed? If it's because it's overpowered then shouldn't the crouch tech be removed and a couple others? Is it only a matter of time before every Killer has every bit of nuance removed from them or is it only just a select few Killers that get to be gutted like Chucky and Blight?
A 'tech' is simply a bug/exploit spray painted over with a fresh new look/name. It doesn't stop being a bug/exploit just because people call it a 'tech'. It just basically signals 'I like this and think it should stay, so I call it tech'. The main difference between bugs and exploits, is that a bug is unintended behavior, and an exploit is an intended behavior used in an unusual or unintended way.
For an exploit example, healing prevents movement, so you can't be healed while holding the run button, so the intended behavior (can't heal a runner) is used in an unintended way (crawling isn't running, but also standing still while injured isn't running). That is what people call 'shift tech' instead of saying 'you can't heal someone running'. Since this is a mechanic working as intended (can't heal a runner), only the edge case scenario might need to be removed (running doesn't prevent heals while slugged).
The flicks and slides are (predominantly) bugs. They are unintended usages of the power, caused by programming errors. If they were intended, then you wouldn't have to jump through hoops to use them (frame perfect Wesker Slides/Hill hops), and the powers would likely be weaker to counter-balance (EG. Oni losing instadown potential). Since they are programming errors, they can be super hard to find, pin down, and fix. They can get fixed when the sufficient time or effort is put into fixing them, and should always be viewed with a limited lifespan.
One massive bug still in the game to this day (that was fixed at one point) was damaging Survivors through stuns. Due to lag, a Survivor could send the Stun message to the server, and the Killer could send the Hit message to the server, and both go off. There was a patch where the Devs put in lag verification (so whoever between Survivor or Killer sent the message to the server first, overrode the oppositions message, AKA laggy person loses), but that caused the client sided hits on Killer side to mismatch from the server sided 'you got stunned, you didn't get the hit', and it was too frustrating and confusing for most of the playerbase to deal with. Thus they added the bug back into the game, and we have laggy BS hits going through stuns to this day sadly. So this MASSIVE bug was considered too difficult for the playerbase to deal with, so this bug/'tech' is acceptable.
There is a line that needs to be crossed where what stands to be gained from the bug, is compared to what is lost from its removal. Similarly that line also exists with exploits and intended mechanics in unintended circumstances. If they removed the 'can't heal a runner' line of code, they might accidentally allow healing on the move with both players running in the same direction. That would be a far worse problem to have, so we are stuck with 'shift-tech', from that analysis. Since most Survivor experiences are hurt by these Killer extra potential bugs (IME 3/5 players), and the Killer and 1 Survivor enjoy them (2/5), they likely are all on the chopping block. At the same time, Blight finally stopped rushing through nerfs that instead landed against far weaker Killers, and his power level was finally hit a bit, as 'bug-tech' was finally fixed. At the same time most people enjoyed Billy's flick (IME 4/5), so it was considered to be up for basekitting.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3716207#Comment_3716207
"There are nearly no cases as Killer where you can lose due to no fault of your own"
I completely 100% disagree with this statement. There are many games you lose on killer outside of your control. I would argue killer has vastly less agency than survivor. You have to stop thinking of survivor as 4 different people, you are one team. The agency comparison is 1v4, not 1v1v1v1v1. The game is in the survivors hands to lose or win, that is agency. Almost all games I lose are because me or my team played bad. The team playing bad is still my agency, we are one. Most the killer games I lose I would replay them exactly the same, that isn't agency. You make the mind game and either the survivor falls for it or not. Making the mind game was still the right choice either way. If both sides play perfectly the killer loses every time. That shows who has the agency.
Most games I lose as survivor I could have changed the outcome if me or my team played better, that's agency. The outcome could be changed through skill.
Most games I lose as killer I don't think the outcome could have been changed.
I would have to hard disagree with Killer having less agency than Survivor.
1) Gens - Both sides can patrol and work/regress gens, but Survivor side has a limit of people on some gens. Technically a Killer can only regress a singular gen 8 times, but that teaches Killers to play more effectively. My highest average singular regression is 5-6, but if other people need to excessively kick then maybe that is a playstyle I am unaware of. If a Survivor can't do a gen because too many teammates are also doing the gen, they have less agency. 1 Killer 0 Survivor.2) Micro/Chase - As Killer if I don't like the person I'm chasing, I can pick one of the 3 remaining players in the match. As Survivor I can't pick the Killer, or who plays that Killer, I can only be chased by 1 person per match. Killer can pick from 4, Survivor can't pick at all. 2 Killer 0 Survivor
3) Macro/(Pallets or Totems or Gens completed or broken) - As Killer, I can push chases into previous deadzones, or place myself on the side of a pallet during a break animation to corral the Survivor into going the way I want. I can also check on my Totems whenever I should chose to, and going beyond ~64m of a totem means I risk it being broken, but that is my choice to make. As Survivor, I can't choose which side pallets get broken on, and I can't prevent my teammates from using certain pallets early. I also can't stop a teammate from completing the main gen on Dead Dawg forcing a 3-gen. 3 Killer 0 Survivor.
4) Countering Best Perks from the Opposition - As Killer, I can simply not tunnel to avoid DS/OTR, I can simply slug for less than 22s to avoid UB, and I can injure people to spread pressure to prevent FTP+BU, however in some circumstances I can't avoid a Background Player save, so lets say 25% uncounterable. As Survivor, I can't avoid going down forever, so all hook based perks aren't counterable, although Aura perks can be largely countered by Distortion. Looking at sweatlord Nightlight's self reported picks compared to the official stats in February, we get mostly the same perks barring STBFL being dropped for Nowhere to Hide, and NOED dropped for Bamboozle. That gives 3/12 perks countered by Distortion, or roughly 25% counterable, and the remaining 75% uncounterable. Killer can counter more, Survivor can counter less, thus 4 Killer 0 Survivor.
5) Methods of Winning (Escape/Kill) - As Survivor I HAVE to pump gens and open gates, or 25% of the Survivor lobby can escape with hatch. Theoretically the Killer can even close the hatch, so they can deny Hatch in half of those times it even spawns, but then you can bring a key, but then we are just getting too deep in the weeds. So we can count 2 methods of escape, or 1.25 adjusted methods. Killer can kill Survivors with Hooks, Bleedouts, and Moris. Now technically some Mori's require 8 hooks (Iri offering), so .33 adjusted, some require 5 hooks (Devour Hope), so .5833 adjusted, and some only work on the Obsession (Rancor), so .25 adjusted, so we can count this as the lowest adjusted or the fact of Moris alone for 1 or .25. That gives 3 raw kill methods for Killer, and 2 raw escape methods for Survivor, or an adjusted 2.25 for Killer, and 1.25 for Survivor, with both favoring Killer. 5 Killer 0 Survivor.
By my estimates Killer contains FAR more agency than Survivor when compared category to category. I wasn't exhaustive to be fair, but IMO that would make things even more lopsided for Killer, as things like Plague deletes Altruism for Survivors, removing even more agency, or infection/dream/headtrap mechanics force or encourage Survivors to cleanse/heal/interact instead of doing other things.
@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3716555#Comment_3716555
You’re conflating two things as the same that aren’t. Me saying there’s nothing I could have done to change the outcome is not the same thing as me saying I didn’t make mistakes. Quite different. We’re not perfect, of course I make mistakes. It’s understanding how much of an impact those mistakes have on the game that matters. My point is that correcting those mistakes much of the time would not have changed the outcome.
Now I am not talking about common games, these are much rarer outliers. This also has many factors of how often this is based on killer and other choices pre match.
I had a match recently against a 4 man that had combined dbd hours of over 40,000. So like I said, not matches most people are seeing. Their occurrences rate does go up the higher mmr you are though. After almost 11k hours myself I can pretty well deduce the impact of decisions and how much of an impact different choices would make.
There are unwinnable games as killer, but I think most survivor games could be won by improving the skill of myself or my teammates. If both sides play perfectly, the survivors win every time. Most killers rely on survivor mistakes. This is not something that applies to most dbd games mind you, these are rare high mmr matches. Most killer matches their skill could change the outcome.
There are some exceptions to what I’m saying, but it is generally speaking the case.
See this is what I mean, "… but I think most survivor games could be won by improving the skill of myself or my teammates." I can improve my own skill, which works when I am 100% of the team, aka Killer. How can I force someone else to make the right decision and not screw up? I can't make my soloq teammates improve, thus another reason why I think I have less agency as Survivor.
If we are only taking the tippy top .0001% of matches where Survivors objectively always win, that still leaves 99.9999% of matches where I can win as Killer by playing better. That is the vast majority of matches, even at top MMR (and even if it may drop to 99% instead of 99.9999%), and always true for people below top MMR. Heck, even if we shift the decimals in both examples over, that still is 99.999% overall, 90% top MMR, still a massive majority, or more true than false.
Essentially Survivors can reach a max skill of 100, and Killers can reach a max skill of 99.5. When both play perfectly (100/100/100/100 VS 99.5), yes Survivors win, but if a single Survivor isn't perfect (or less perfect than the Killer to be more accurate), the Killer wins instead.
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@Blueberry said:
This is a people thing, not a killer thing.
"Too many killers complain that the game is unfair but they don't work to
improve their game by watching tutorials or run the perks needed to
balance their weaknesses. Sometimes you are the main cause of your own
demise during a match."You could just as easily take this entire statement and replace "killers" with "survivors".
It's just human nature to be this way, not specifically one side.
I'd say this is partially true. No matter what happens, I can't fix my teammate from bringing No Mither or Weaving Spiders or trolling to make me lose. I can't force the correct person to get off the gen, and the correct person to stay on the gen. I can't change anything that my supposed teammates do.
I can make a better decision in chase on both sides. I can chose to provide pressure on a side objective (heal/snuff boon) or main objective (pump specific gen/chase specific Surv) on both sides. There are nearly no cases as Killer where you can lose due to no fault of your own (outside of blatant cheaters). It is the (vast vast vast) majority of cases as Survivor where you can lose due to things outside of your control (IME).
If I could play a solo Survivor gamemode instead, then I could actually improve and have my wins and losses be in my control, but as long as I have to rely on trolling teammates, the majority of my losses are going to be out of my control and infinitely more frustrating.
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If there was a way to calculate 16m from chokepoints, then sure. It seems silly I can effectively facecamp on The Game (and numerous other maps like H-shaped maps) from 30-60m out because there are no other ways to reach the hook.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3714886#Comment_3714886
Is fair when a killer hooks a survivor then immediately runs to the opposite end of the map, looks at the wall, and waits for them to get unhooked and healed before they target someone else?
Yep that would be fair. You can also just chase anyone other than someone who just got off hook, which is normally 75% of the lobby. Heck, you can also watch that final 25% of the lobby do a CA in your face, and it becomes fair to target them after an unhook. All of those are variants of 'fair'.
The issue here is both sides are attempting to reduce the 'health pool' of the opposition at the same time. Gens+Gates are essentially the Killer's 'Permanent Health', and Hook Stages are essentially the Survivor's 'Permanent Health'. 'Permanent Heal' perks are in general, bad. Imagine if there was a Survivor perk to give an extra hook state every 40s you went uninjured in chase. That would be absurd, but that is the equivalent of slowdown perks.
Maps are so bad these days, I can win by bruteforcing 4 slowdown and whittling down all pallets to 0 without even killing someone before the 9th hook. We can either fix maps, or fix slowdown. Maps are getting worse and worse (and they aren't learning from their mistakes), so slowdown appears to be the less wrong avenue to target. I would love 100s basekit gens with all slowdown (regression and gen block) numbers halved, and I honestly think that would fix more problems that it would cause. Anti-AFK perks are better for the game (especially if basekitted in lesser forms), and that's what DS, BT, and UB are, reasons to play instead of AFK.
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@Junylar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3714757#Comment_3714757
Nice us vs them. Potential energy still wasn't kill switched after all, giving survivors more than a month to speedrun games with 0 effort. And please, remind, how long did it take them to nerf the original DS?
They are also going to nerf a bunch of slowdown perks in this update, but of course it's THEIR perks, they should be always nerfed, unlike OURS. It takes someone to actually play both roles to understand that second chance perks and gen slowdown perks are the worst disease that ever happened to the game, both denying and prolonging the opposite team's objective and sucking all the fun from the game, so ideally both of these kinds of perks should be nerfed to the ground if not removed completely: no extra lives for survivors and no extra gen gauges for killers. That would be fair.
The biggest issue is that these slowdown perks have no counterplay, whereas DS has multiple realms of counterplay. Survivors are designed to go down in chase, so the best you can hope for is to delay or roll the dice on winning 50-50s multiple times as Survivor to prevent slowdown. DS can be hard countered by simply targeting the remaining 75% of the current lobby. Even if you have no intel on Survivors C and D, the Killer still knows Survivor A (unhookee) can have DS, and Surv B (unhooker) can't, merely lowering that number to 50% viable targets to completely avoid a perk. I think DH is an actual 2nd chance perk, but DS is instead a 'real chance' perk. I can't avoid a DH without advance use of anti-exhaustion perks/add-ons, but I can almost always avoid a DS/UB (outside absurdities like a 4-man Breakdown+comp cornering for UB).
Personally I would usually play with PR alone on Ghosty, and can easily win the vast majority of my matches with effectively 540-720 gen seconds to work with (5-7 gens plus 100% regression effectively shifting that number to 6-8*90). Arguably if they nerfed all slowdown by 50% (on top of the proposed nerfs), then we could basekit 10 more seconds onto gens fairly. That would put us at (with 10% PR) 540-740 gen seconds (5-7*100 + 40), and stacked slowdown is even less effective. The problem here though is that all the maps have too few usable pallets anymore, and can be bruteforced/bloodlusted to win through attrition ala old CoB/OC/Eruption styled free wins. Reducing the effectiveness of stacking slowdown is the best thing we can do to fix that if we can't have real pallets anymore.
Also Buckle Up and Background Player, which have also been problem perks with less counterplay than DS, but more than slowdown, are also being adjusted (although I think BU should have just been changed to not work with FTP instead, and BP shifted the speed boost to AFTER the pickup completes, not on starting it).
As far as the PE exploit, now we are going to have a bunch of Survivors with artificially inflated MMR, and since they can't bug abuse to win anymore will provide Killers with plenty of free wins in return. That seems like a problem that solves itself in the long run, as those Survivors took out a loan, and now Killers can now enforcerepaying the debt on those bug abusers. -
Background Player should have the speedboost delayed until after the pickup is completed (so it can't be used for pallet/flash saves), but it can still be used for massive map traversal or sabos.
DS is fine as long as CA's exist, and arguably could stand to be a lot stronger. I joked on the PTB version that they should commit to making the DS animation take 30s and the stun last 30s, and the Killer can still just immediately down the person after the stun, but at this point it might be a decent new option to deal with people who 'need' to tunnel for $5 subway cards. One thing though is saving someone from a Killer pickup should be considered a CA, so that way if you complete a pallet stun/blind that unshoulders a Survivor, then you have to lose DS/OTR as a result. -
@OmegaXII said:
You know, I thought DC in any online games are hugely despised by players, but apparently DBD doesn’t.
In DBD Survivors actually start justifying DC just because matches don’t go their way.
See Killers you don’t like? DC. Noticing Killers bringing Meta Perks? DC. Get caught first? DC.
I mean, what the hell is happening here??
No other game forces you to sit and do nothing for the majority of the game to the same extent. You do gens, you do nothing, you sit on hook, you do nothing, you get bled out, you do nothing. It is a bizarre case of not playing the game in order to play the game. The only time this is an issue, is when the match is set up for you not even have a chance to 'play' and be forced to 'not play' for the entirety of the match. That's why people give up, they quit the game so they can actually play the game.
As far as Killers you don't like, yeah most games like this have bans to avoid the disgusting extremes, its crazy to think we still don't even have as much as a Killer repeat prevention. As far as Killers bringing the sweat, yeah if you didn't bring the sweat, the game is so poorly managed that the loss is already a foregone conclusion. Get caught first, that's usually what people want, but if you see an AFK with crows and/or nobody on gens, then once again the game is so poorly managed that there is no point in continuing.
There needs to be better comeback mechanics so both sides always feel like they can play. Old Hatch was a great comeback mechanic, but some others could be gen regression ceasing to function after a kill, and NoED being basekit if you reach endgame without a kill. That way everyone always feels like they have a chance, and always have a reason to play. -
@_Onyx_ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3711927#Comment_3711927
This is where player experience shapes opinions too. My experience, Killers that have no momentum and are struggling to get even one hook by the time there is 1 gen left or the exit gates are powered will still plug away because they know that an endgame hook could get them a kill, or more, depending on how altruistic and cocky the Survivors get.
You're right about negative behaviour being 'allowed' by the Devs. I would personally remove the "auto-sacrifice" from not attempting 2 consecutive skill checks. If you wanna leave, then DC and get timed out. I would make it so missing or not attempting the struggle skill check simply just shaves the current amount of seconds off the timer (I think it's 10), so you have to miss all 6 if you want out that way.
I wouldn't say the game is designed for Survivors to feel like they should have a "I want out" attitude. That's the players being enabled with that attitude by one another. "Oh you're against Skull Merchant? Yeah I can see why you'd quit." "Slugged by Twins? Makes sense." "The Killer got your teammates down back to back in less than 10 seconds? Yeah you may as well write off the match." It's just little babies enabling little babies with validation. It's so annoying to see. Been doing it for so long that it's become a habit and they won't hear it any other way that what they're doing is crappy and childish.
It's not a healthy state for the community to be in, and the Devs need to start being that strict parent that forces this habit to stop.
Agreed on BHVR needing to fix the flaws that allow for and feed into this behavior.
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@_Onyx_ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3711457#Comment_3711457
You don't see Killers DCing all the time when Survivors do their objectives in the shortest time possible.
It's a very immature, childish attitude to give up at the smallest inconvenience. If you're anticipating that you're gonna lose quickly, what's the big deal? You'll be in a new match in no time at all if you just stick it out and actually try to win anyway. If you do end up losing, who cares? At least it's giving you and your teammates a chance by sticking with it and helping them try to progress their objective.
The Survivor meta is literally a perfect counter to all the things you said you don't like versing. It's actually not a great stance you've taken up. The weaker Killers, even with full slowdown still struggle to get a single kill against Survivors that glue to gens and don't make stupid decisions like throw themselves at a hook. The stronger Killers will still struggle against Survivors that are glued to gens too. Yeah they have more tools to be able to strategize better than the rest of the roster, but they still have to try to compete against insanely quick gens speed. If you play safe against them, it minimises the frequency they can access their slowdown perks (since they're hook related).
Seriously, the entitled behaviour of "I don't like this, I quit" has plagued the community of DBD for years now. The Devs have done nothing to discourage Survivors crying and getting out of their pram. So now it's got to this stage where people justify why they have a childish attitude with the "it's X Killer, so it's fine" or "these perks are boring". If Killers were entitled like that, no one would ever be able to play out a full match.
So, to you, and all bottom Survivors with childish attitudes, if you feel like you are gonna lose, just do your objective. Glue yourself to gens. Chances are you will win or at least give your teammates a win. Instead of quitting and making your team lose because you're a bottom.
I see plenty of Killers DCing when things don't go their way, but the game is currently balanced around Killers to win the majority of the time. I played a set of matches with 2 friends (3-man SWF), and in 8 matches, we only escaped in 1. That is a 12.5% escape rate, and a 87.5% kill rate. I can get roughly the same numbers regularly as Killer, so the game is currently balanced around 60%K/40%E, but the reality (of mine, and likely many other people's) is closer to 85%K/15%E.
Not only that, but a Killer quitting has a significantly different impact on the match. A Killer quitting hard ends the match, or opening the gates sets a 2 minute timer to leave. A Survivor quitting makes 3 other players forced to play out a (likely) doomed match, and with a Killer (often) still sweating their butt off since it would be embarrassing to lose to a 3v1.
The weaker Killer players are busy playing against sub-100hr babies, and everyone else is (seemingly) getting sweatlords. The weaker Killers are perfectly fine, as I have no problem winning consistently as Ghosty/Myers/Clown/Trapper/Legion and I don't even use both PR and Pop at the same time on those Killers (one or the other). There is only 1 Survivor perk that can actually counter sweatlords, and it is a minor inconvenience (DS).
As far as entitled behavior, that is shared by the entire playerbase, and not limited to Survivor only. I was winning easily (as Killer) back during Rank-based matchmaking, so we needed to change to MMR to appease the entitled whiners. I was winning easily (as Killer) back with 80s gens, but we still needed to give whiners 10 extra seconds per gen. I was winning easily (as Killer) during the CoB/OC/Eruption 'monkey with a spacebar can win' era and I didn't even use those perks, but the whiners were given those free win perks. I was winning easily (as Killer) before nearly all maps got massacred and made significantly more Killer-sided (farm teepee pallet anyone?) to appease the whiners. Most major changes are making Killer more free to win, and nothing to help the Survivor QoL experience. Nothing to make teammates not throw for tomes. Nothing to ban sweatlord Killer picks. Nothing to mitigate sweatlord behaviors like bleeding out for the 4k. Nothing to avoid a scumbag Killer that was reported for breaking the rules, then you still get them in the very next match. I can completely understand any Survivor player who goes, 'fudge it, if I don't get a fun match I'm going next', because there has been nothing to make matches fun for Survivor other than another roll of the dice. Killer players are just as entitled as Survivor players, but they are catered to with free wins and QoL. If kill rates were 50-50, then Killers would be doing the exact same as Survivors currently are under the current realistic 80-20 (IME playing as both sides).
The game is currently designed such that if you think you are going to lose as Survivor, you are better off attempting Kobe's (for a lucky turn-around to potentially shift the balance back in your favor), or giving up on 2nd stage (since you can simply roll another match and hope for the better). That is the fault of the designers of the game, in that unhealthy behaviors are the most rewarded. It is on the design team to make healthy actions/behaviors/activities the best choice. Water flows in the path of least resistance, and BHVR created a massive canyon that causes Survivors to have near no chance of climbing out of this pit of desperation, thus they flow down this current 'go next' mindset. -
@AtraxMorgue said:
I'm a killer main most of the time but I play survivor too because I think it's fun to keep a balance between the two sides, which also makes me understanding of the two sides' issues and problems, but what I cannot simply grasp is how survivors BM me when I play killer and I'm talking t-bagging after every stun etc. etc. just generally playing with the sole purpose of making me have a bad time, and then they get all angry and confused when I BM them back when I play killer and you BM me I'll slap you on the hook or nod just to return the ball but then in the end-game chat everyone is so pissed that I'm ruining their fun that I'm a sweaty no-life and I'm like is annoying the killer really your definition of fun? Seriously grow up and stop getting defensive or mad when I return the favor, not to mention the crying and whining about "tunneling" when I'm literally trying to go out of my way to go for the unhooker yet you keep body blocking me with BT forcing me to tunnel you out.
Because true BM only applies when the opposition has no, or sometimes low agency. Teabagging at the exit gates is low agency, (can only hit to force out, or wait 2m), thus it is considered BM. Bleeding out give no agency, thus is considered BM. Teabagging mid-match is a way to keep aggro from foolish players, so that way the weaker Survivor teammates can pump gens and be more useful. The Killer can decide to play along with the mid-match teabag, fall prey to the taunt, leave for one of 7-3 gens (or 2 gates), or leave to chase 1-3 other Survivors. That is so many options, the Killer player can't conceivably claim their agency is limited, thus not BM.
Also people in this community largely mischaracterize BM and fail to understand that the enemy engaging in 'BM' (with agency) is actually sabotaging their chance of winning. If I teabag after a pallet, I lose distance, and give the Killer an advantage. If I hit someone on hook, I lose distance during the wipe animation, and give the remaining Survivors gen time. The best move is pretend you are frustrated but be unmoved, so that way they hinder themselves more in the future for your gain. -
Terminus is underrated, but it has the same problem as Adrenaline, you have to have a match last long enough to use it. Most times both Killers and Survivors would be better served with an extra mid-game/early-game perk, and killing them before the gens pop or living long enough to pop the gens.
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For the video, going left instead of right would have given you a chance to round back to the pallet, but you would need to see that he was going the opposite way that he was.
For in general, the Clown can get a hit against something like 70-90% of dropped pallets. Basically only god pallets and standing pallets protect you. That also means modern map design (only unsafe pallets like farm teepee + 2 wooden crates) give Clowns free wins for days. Clown is beaten by good macro-game, splitting apart, not dropping un-safe pallets to juice 1 more loop, and taking advantage of pallet fast vaults. The gas converts window vaults from .5s fast vaults into .9s medium vaults, but pallets remain at the .5s fast speed. If you force the clown to kick the pallet, then you at least can make it to another pallet.
Edit: Also play Clown yourself. Clown players learn which vaults can and can't be made when affected by yellow and purple gas, so you can know to leave early if a Clown only gets a yellow+purple hit and they are still prepping the yellow. Playing Clown is like relearning all common tile timings, just like you have to re-learn 110 Killers to M1 at simple loops compared to 115. -
@Archael said:
@mizrak3
You arguments are realy bad. But since most of them goes from feelings rather than logic (It can be also apply to me), i dont think i can reason with you. There is one thing tho i can specify here, yet its not as much rellevant:
- Comparing rectangles and squares is not about comparing the similarities of two objects, but about showing the width of a given set. The set of squares is much wider than the set of rectangles, and in addition, the entire set of rectangles is contained in it, so all rectangles are squares. On the other hand, the set of squares, being wider, also contains sets other than rectangles, so not all squares are rectangles. That's why I think your comparison makes no sense. Since not all cheaters use anonymous mode and not all people using this mode are cheaters, it means that these are sets with a common part and none of them is included in any of them.
I will just add that I believe that the mere fact that some cheaters, or even most of them, use this mode to feel unpunished is not an excuse that victims of harassment and insults from members of ONE game should either continue to be victims or should be switched off from social life on the WHOLE platform.
So you reply without using the Quote feature which pings people, or actually spelling my name correctly (to ping me) when it auto-suggests to spell it correctly with people. Now technically there are some spelling and grammar mistakes, so that could possibly be it, but quoting bypasses the need to @ someone. That means while it is possible, at this point I don't find it plausible. I previously was extending a courtesy of assuming best intentions, but now it seems more likely you are lying and arguing in bad faith. This appears to be an attempt to get the last word without a reply, especially since you previously used the quote feature which shows you know how to use it. Like, its easier to click the quote button than to type @(person's name), especially when going out of the way to not click the auto-suggestion for the person's name.
My arguments are bad, I use feelings rather than logic - My points of argument: 1. Better tools exist and provide universal protections. Not seeing emotion. Also not seeing these being refuted, so it seems the merit of these tools I suggested stands, thus a good argument. 2. A greater percentage of bad actors use Anon in comparison to the normal population (due to how it is implemented), and gave suggestions to 'improve usage'/'reduce misuse'. Giving suggestions for improvement seems like a willingness to engage, thus more likely logical than emotional. Alternatively, my experience was anecdotal, so I checked over 8 videos I had for reports (I wanted an even 10, but some vids ended before finding out if the offending Killer was Anon, and some of those were before Anon was implemented so I had to exclude those from the criteria). Excluding myself or my SWF, 3/4 Anon players in the 8 games were the rule breaker (griefs or cheats or other), and 5/27 non-Anon players were the rule breaker. Anon has 75% jerks, and non-Anon has 18.5% jerks (if you include my SWF and I, that drops non-Anon to 5/36 or ~13.9%, but I wanted to use numbers most favorable to the point I'm arguing against). That means Anon contains 56% more jerks, or Anon players are roughly 4 times as likely to break the rules as normal players. So this isn't an emotional argument unless the numbers were within, say, 10% of one another. Since this is mathematical, and not strictly memory and negativity bias, this is a logical point, not an emotional one. Neither of my core arguments are rooted in emotion (the other things are mostly spinoffs of these 2 core pillars), so unless you could show how they were emotional instead of logical, that leans once more towards the bad faith camp.Victims shouldn't be forced to switch off their social life - Where did I say fully disable everything as the only solution? I gave a range of solutions from the extreme, private everything, to the tame, only accept direct/private messages from friends. Even with everything privated, you can still communicate with everyone in post-game chat, forums, steam discussions, and DM/PMs with friends. All of those work perfectly fine, even under the 'private everything' suggestion. Heck, you could go to the actual extreme and make your account name a bar code ala Battlenet (Combination of capital 'i's and lowercase 'L's, like IlIlIlIIIllllIIIllIlI, or whatever works for the platform). I have to understand the risk of getting in an accident when driving or riding in a vehicle, so I can take simple precautions like wearing a seatbelt. I have to understand the risk while walking to look both ways before crossing the street, even when I have the right of way. I have to understand the risk of unsavory messages when I go online, and can use basic universal protections to avoid the majority of them.
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You can also purposely not kill Survivors as Killers, or purposely stay and die as Survivor when you won. Arguably with how horrible the game is currently, that might be the only remaining way to enjoy playing. You can win without sweating, and lose according to MMR. So 'match fixing' already is a problem regardless.
Technically both sides can fight this, with Survivors staying away from the gates, or Killers dropping Survivors out of the gate, but Survivors purposely not finishing gens would be the extreme of this 'play to lose' reverse gameplay.
I would still agree with removing map offerings though, as other than RPD (for the achievement of 20 gate escapes), they are pretty much only used to ruin the opposite sides' experience. -
@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3704763#Comment_3704763
Does it really matter if they "feel" safe, when they're not? I've reported a bunch of Anon Mode players, and the ones that have broken the rules were sanctioned. I know you can report them, you know you can report them, I don't see why you are so upset about it. The false belief of safety will only work against rulebreakers, if anything.
I shouldn't have to lock down my Steam Profile to avoid nasty comments from one game. I have had absolutely zero nasty messages from DBD players on my profile ever since I've started using anon mode, and I can keep my profile public. I play other games and have other reasons why I'd want people who aren't on my friends list to leave comments on my profile.
I'm not sure where you get the idea that revealing someone's username after the game is over is standard. I'm not aware of any game that has such privacy measures that does that. All that really does in reality is allow people to draw hate toward's others profiles. I don't want some weird streamer pulling up my profile after a game to check it out after the game and potentially invite their fans to comment on it. There's some rather nasty people in the community that I'd rather not have anywhere near my profile.
And if anything, reporting actually became more streamlined with the advent of Anon Mode. Improvements could be made to the system overall but removing Anon Mode won't do that.
Sadly yes it does matter if they 'feel safe', because it doesn't stop the problem at the source, and causes more people to act out.
If these people will act out because of this 'feature' that 'solves' something already solved, then the feature is to blame while not providing value.You shouldn't lock down steam comments because of any one game, you should lock down steam comments because they provide nothing of value unless farming '-1's. Anyone can simply add you as a friend and communicate if you think they aren't a troll, y'know basic internet safety precautions.
Revealing someone post-game prevents the exact problem this version provides, it prevents people from feeling empowered to BM without being called out, or facing other repercussions. A weirdo sending people your way can happen in any other game, so why is this the only one where this matters? Plus with the basic internet safety features I mentioned earlier, this is already solved. If this community is so depraved and vile, I'd say that says volumes about the type of environment the game fosters. Even then, it would be much better served by removing Anon mode, as all those depraved and vile people are needlessly BMing in matches behind their Anonymity.
Reporting has actually decreased in quality when they started using that stupid AI bot instead of the easy to use forms. It took me 3 times longer to tell the bot the info (in the obtuse ways it was asking) than to type it in manually with * for required sections. (Essentially I have to go through ALL the optional parts, even when they aren't needed with the bot.)
@Archael said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3704763#Comment_3704763
1. Not all cheaters use anonymous mode, so comparison to squares have no sense.
1a. Especially that in oppening post it is said: "The only players that use self anonymous mode are cheaters, griefers"
2. It's better to give people ability to prevent being harassed since one can report cheaters regardless of anonymous.
3. You really prefer to let people being harassed by toxic dbd player to achieve slightly more reports for bad behavior?
1. I have to assume you are ESL, or some other major cultural difference, if it didn't make sense, so I'll re-explain in detail. The Square Rectangle comparison is when people are comparing two different concepts, where there is some overlap. A Square is a 4 sided object, with all 4 sides being equal in length. A Rectangle is a 4 sided object, with 2 pairs of sides equal in length. That means a Square has to be 1/1/1/1, or 5/5/5/5, or X/X/X/X, and 5/5/4/4 isn't a Square. A Rectangle can have both sets be the same size like the 1s or the 5s (1/1/1/1), but it also could be 1/1/5/5, or 3/3/4/4, or any other X/X/Y/Y. That means sometimes a Rectangle can be a Square (when X = Y), but not all Rectangles are squares (when X != Y). I also qualified my statement with 'most', so it was softened from the full comparison.
1a. That wasn't what I claimed, I only claimed most of my cheater/griefer experiences were from Anon users (or of the bad people, most bad people use Anon). Take issue with the other posters for that claim. I can understand them being frustrated and hyperbolic though.
2. Like I said previously, already solved by better tools, and this empowers griefers/cheaters to act out under a sense of security, more than people would act out normally (from my anecdotal experience from before and after Anon was implemented).
3. Removing a grief tool doesn't remove all other protections in place, so this is a false dichotomy. As I detailed in numerous places, people can private their profiles, prevent public comments, only accept messages from people on their friend list, and more. None of those security features vanish when the Anon grief tool is removed. Plus it is such a bizarre claim, if the community is so horrible, why wouldn't this cause for more harm than good? Clearly if 97% of the people are nothing but trolling harassers, then they would abuse this tool for ill. If they were so rare (say 3%) then the tool wouldn't be needed to begin with. Both extremes point towards Anon (without revealing in post-game) being a 'bad idea'/'griefer's dream tool'.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
The only people who want Anon Mode removed are people who either don't know you can still report Anon users or people who are mad that they can't talk smack on people's profiles anymore.
And people who are sick and tired of people abusing Anon Mode to break the game rules and banking on the fact that the majority of the playerbase doesn't understand the report system. I can't tell you how many jerks play Anon, both as my soloq teammates, and Killers, (and presumably some of my Survivors as Killer, but I can't tell if they griefed their own team). They all too often engage in flagrant rule breaking, and Anon mode empowers their belief that they are safe. At the same time, because I've seen people on the forums all too often not understanding how the report system works, means the vast majority of people don't report people properly, thus Anon WORKS as a shield for bad actors, mostly due to ignorance and poor implementation.
Also you can private your steam profile so random people can't comment, or only friends can comment on your profile. Why wouldn't someone do that? My steam profile isn't a forum for public discussion, it is more akin to my house, and only people I invite are allowed there. You can have reviews, and steam group/game posts publicly visible and available to comment, but there is no reason to have your profile open for comment. As far as consoles, you can get people banned for DMing insults as tame as 'you are 2% stinkier than the average person' since their rules for bans/reporting are so lax, so just report them there.@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3703915#Comment_3703915
A) That'd defeat the point
B) BHVR use the in game report you make to correlate the user that you're reporting. You don't need to know their username to report them.
Showing username after the match is over is normal for this sort of feature, as you don't need to worry about streamsniping/anonymity after the match is done. The purpose is already reached by blocking mid-match. The welcome is overstayed when you can clearly see people not understanding the report system because the system is so obfuscated only AFTER the advent of Anon mode.
@Archael said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/411482/remove-self-anonymity
My friend was often getting lot of messages, and comments about how terrible person she is, just because she was noob, and was not able to loop a killer, often getting caught in 10-15s. So she used anonymous mode to not be flamed... That means she is griefer?
@Skitten56 said:
The only players that use self anonymous mode are cheaters, griefers and/or players that don't want to ruin their reputation.
100% wrong. I use it and I am neither of those things. I am just a person who doesn't want other players looking up my hour count and dodging the lobby or having salty players post a bunch of bs on my steam page. I'm sure it is also a great tool for streamers who have people trying to troll/harass them. There are many legit reasons to play in anonymous mode.
It is a feature that promotes the negativity of the community and
doesn't allow other device users to report the accounts on those other
devices.You can still report players in anonymous mode. Make the report and then when you submit your ticket on BHVR's main site, just say it was the "anonymous named player" who was doing the cheating/toxic/exploits.
This is a square/rectangle problem (although with most instead of all). All squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares. Most griefers/cheaters use Anon mode, but not all Anon mode users are cheaters/griefers.
People act out more under Anon mode, and there are already protections in place for console/steam unwanted messages. (Steam can disable messages from non-friends, private profile comments to only allow for friends, etc. Console has far less requirements for ban reports on messaging.)
Should anyone have to take extra effort to prevent griefers or harassing messages? No, but sadly this is the internet, with both its highs and lows. Some actions should be done to ensure more harm isn't done than good, and currently IME, Anon does more harm than good, especially when the benefits of Anon are already solved through other (and far better) means. I haven't had any messages prevented by using Anon (that weren't prevented by disabling messages from people off my friends list), but I have had griefers actively ruining multiple matches because they feel empowered to do so with Anon mode. That means I now have to record matches and provide video evidence and hop through all the hoops of the report system from a problem caused by a solution for an already solved problem. -
The problem with meta shakeups involving nerfing fair perks, is we have to get unfair perks buffed, or fair perks buffed into being unfair, as well as perfectly fine perks being butchered and forgotten. Look at DS/Pop/PR, all were fair perks, and nearly all of their nerfs were sidegraded or backtracked on. That shows nerfing something on popularity alone is ultra foolish.
Then look at some other perks like Thana, Ruin, Iron Will, Calm Spirit, Self-Care, and more. There was nothing overpowering about these perks, but they got butchered on the altar of 'shakeups'. (Even more bizarre since Circle of Healing, an actual massive problem at that time, was ignored while the inferior Self-Care was taken out back.)
There is no quality in massive nerf sweeps, although there can be some merit in buff sweeps with targeted nerfs after the fact. We have many good buff examples, like Cruel Limits, Furtive Chase, Trail of Torment, Saboteur, and more. Background Player imo is currently a problem perk atm, but Flashbangs/Firecrackers saving against walls isn't (without Background Player). Buckle Up and For the People independently are fine, and just need a coding retouch to fix the combo, although that usually isn't as much of an issue as Background Player. Grim Embrace feels like old Incap Eruption, but you don't even need to kick the gen that is going to be blocked now. So we have 3 problems from buffing perks, which can easily be fixed, alongside many nice perks being buffed into actually having a place in builds. -
Prior to Chucky coming out. It wasn't like Chucky was bad or anything, and I really like both the Alan Wake and Chucky tie ins, but the bad parts of the game left unfixed just got too much for me to have fun when playing anymore. I still hope they fix the game and make it playable again, but I don't think it has reached that state yet. (It also doesn't help that most of my friends stopped playing, and friends make the stacked bad stuff bearable. Soloq exacerbates the existing problems and makes them far far worse.)