mizark3
mizark3
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3695650#Comment_3695650
Totally disagree.
While the instant mori was an issue for what you listed, the base kit UB was absolutely a huge issue that was complained about. It was not received positively or even neutral for that matter. It was unanimously hated and viewed as something that would ruin DBD. If we had a solely UB PTB it would be extremely negative, that is not an exaggeration.
Was there negativity? Yes. Was that fear irrational and mathematically unfounded? Also yes. Every match you would have to fail to pick someone up for 45s without them crawling. Now maybe with modern Background Player 45s would be too much, but back then it was nothing too difficult for even the weakest minded of Killers. I liked it because on Survivor because it was a natural counter to bleedouts. I also liked it as Killer because I could manipulate Survivors easier since they would act in more predictable manners.
There is not possible way it was 'unanimously' hated, because bare minimum 25% of people liked the idea of perma-slugging/bleedouts being effectively deleted. People may have had their own criticisms of its implementation, which I was one of them. I would have wanted it to take 60s, but the first 30s brings you to the current soft 95% cap, and the next 30s brings you up fully. That would give Killers more breathing room, and Survivors more reason to remain altruistic. Does a suggestion for a better idea mean the original plan is garbage? No.
As far as a current UB PTB, the only reason it would be seen as 'extremely negative' would be saying the majority of forum participants are bleedout Killer mains. That simply isn't the case. Feeling too much like a lose-lose with Background Player would be a fair complaint, and I would easily sacrifice that perk for a basekit self-pickup. I would even argue that Background Player could be fairly nerfed to when a pickup animation completes, that way it can still be used for Sabos, but not for Pallet/Blind saves. (I think Sabos are great because they offer meaningful counterplay for both sides. Sadly most maps have deleted it as a tactic by having 4-7 hooks available from normal spots on the map, and 3 hooks available on most map corners. [On the other extreme, some places are too restrictive with hooks, but they are specific layouts where people map offer in order to abuse them.]) -
@Blueberry said:
They already tested nearly these exact changes you are proposing on a PTB a long time ago as you said and it was a complete disaster. I know you feel yours is different but it's not.
The disaster with that PTB was the Mori changes associated with basekit UB. Killers were speedrunning a 4 slug withing the 45s UB timer as it would hard end the match early with a Mori on the final downed Surv. They also deleted Moris from all other sources (Offerings/Devour Hope), and didn't even give the Killer the option to 'Murder or Mercy' to give hatch or Mori them. So people didn't like not being able to Mori when they wanted to.
The basekit UB had little to no complaints that were mathematically sound. (Technically there was 1 Oni main that complained that he couldn't slug all 4 within a single power usage, but the power ends in 17.45s if you downed all 4 Survs from start to finish. That means that Oni had 28s to find and hook the first Surv before that first surv could pick themselves up. On average, you could chain hook every Surv [unless they all hid in the same corner, but then you could simply bleed them out and hit them like whack a mole, or hook them on the 3 hooks available from most map's corners and camp the last].)
If they did a Mori exclusive PTB, and a slower baskit UB exclusive PTB, then the Mori PTB would be lambasted again, and the UB PTB would be net neutral or positive. -
I can understand thinking DH is good, but as long as it is ping reliant, it can never be S-tier imo. My matches on my own server with me having <20 ping still have VPN Killers getting around pallet stuns and DH procs because they are so laggy.
Also bizarre to see FTP so far up if it is only there for FTP+BU combo, but not seeing Stakeout/Hyperfocus for similar reasons. Also is this an averaged tier list or SWF or soloq? I find Stakeout+Hyperfocus way more useful in soloq than FTP+BU because they vault the pallet in front of the Killer and the Killer just grabs them. -
@SilverCrane4643 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3694881#Comment_3694881
Again I'll keep the reply as short as possible. Like I said I'm down for a debate, so if you want share your discord name and let's have a friendly talk.
1 & 5- Reply- I've already talked about that in the comment of April 2 at the second paragraph. The Oni is not a good example of that.
3- Reply- At this point they should create a ranked mode, but I'm not sure about having a total different balance (beside having some perks or add ons limitations).
4- Reply- Correct
7- Reply- I have my opinions about 6.1 update, but I think it''s better to not talk about that here. It can be an interesting argument to talk in the discord talk if you want.
8 & 9- Reply- No math used just a "gut feeling" based of your previous comments, but I've already said that I might be wrong.
10 & 11- Reply- No man, here is what you are not understanding. The Dbd community even though they are very entitled, any hot topic in the community would cause a big reaction. One good example of that is the recent Myers standoff in front of a surv inside a locker. The surv didn't want the Myers to get his achievement by killing everyone in the match with the add on. They both stood there for 40 mins (you probably what happend at the end, but it is better to not mention thath here). What I'm trying to say that anything would have been in the publi eyes. During the cheating epidemic, many videos have shown what happend to many of these people. To this date I have never seen or heard someone getting banned of a tech. Any case of that would have been for sure a hot topic talked in the community, but it has NEVER happend.
So you saying "We aren't arguing whether or not those rules/laws should or shouldn't exist, just discussing their mere existence" is irrelevant. Yes, they do exit, but if the devs are not even following their own rule so what's the point of reporting these people? (I'll repeat, nobody have ever been banned for techs, that would have caused a big online discussion). Again… There is a difference between a breaking bug and tech. Both are bugs that give an advantage, the difference you need skills to pull of a tech and you can them only in specific scenarios. Not to mention the many other good things that techs bring to the game, but I've aleady mentioned all of them.
This is exaclty what I mean with your black and white view. You keep saying "it is bug, it must be fixed", "they devs said it is a bug, no discussion then", "it is in the game rules, that's why I report them", "there is no proof of the reports bccs it is one of the rules of the page". I don't mean to offend but it a close mind thinking. This type of mind sets are good when there is a discussion of math, but here we are talking about a change that affects a part of the player base.
Tbf you are not totally close minded, but it seems like that you don't want to be open minded. One example is your point nr 6 from April 5 (the first one). You said that the MM has his own flaws, which I totally agree, but I can also be close minded and say "the devs in a old qna said that MM is really good in finding players of you skill and it is really good on his job". You know what I mean… they can say whatever they but real life says the opposite. So let's keep the same mindset on other topics too.
1&5: I think we are circling here.
3: I too think ranked features like map and Killer bans should apply in our current, ranked only game mode. We currently have Ranked and Customs, so we should either get Ranked QoL, and/or an MMR free matchmaking 'casual' queue.
4-9: Nothing to add.
10-11:
P1: Both were spiteful and not breaking the rules/breaking the same rule (idr the details). I think they deserve each other <3.P2: If the rules have no purpose, I'm fine with removing them, but as long as they are in place I will assume they are being used. If BHVR deletes that bug exploit section tomorrow, I have nothing more to say in that race.
P3: You claim that I am saying "bug must be fixed". My claim is the bugs can remain, but their use in public matches is at risk of breaking the rules, with the corresponding punishment for breaking rules. My stance also is that we can basekit bugs, but the power must be adjusted to match the new power level with the bug included as well. There is a wide range of acceptable views here, so I don't understand the claim of black and white thinking.
As far as some of the report bans, this is some of the text they give for various reports. (Since I filed off all identifying info, this should be safe to post.)
"While we won't be able to send you email updates on this report, for
future submissions filed in-game, you can use the in-game Report
Feedback feature to know if a report you made has been investigated and
actioned upon."
"We'll take a look at the player you reported for unsportsmanlike conduct
and take additional action if it is needed, but please note that for
confidentiality reasons we will not be able to inform you of the outcome
of this report.""We'll take a look at this account you mentioned griefing by bodyblocking a player in place and holding the game hostage and take additional action if it is needed, but please note that we will not be able to inform you of the outcome of this report."
"Thank you so much for reaching out to us about this - I'm sorry that you've encountered someone potentially breaking our rules. by speed hacking during your match in order to get an advantage over you. We'll take a look at this and take additional action if it is needed, but please note that we will not be able to inform you of the outcome of this report."
"Thank you so much for reaching out to us about this - I'm sorry that you've encountered someone potentially breaking our rules. We'll take a look at this and take additional action if it is needed, but please note that we will not be able to inform you of the outcome of this report."Note the common thread? They can't tell you if someone gets banned, regardless of whether it is bug exploits, blatant cheating, griefing, holding the game hostage, or whatever. So I couldn't tell you if someone got banned from a report even if I wanted to. Even with the new ban feedback system where they tell you in-game, you would have to intentionally only report 1 person over the course of 2-3 months, depending on how long the ban backlog is, before you would find out.
P4: To be fair to their claims, BHVR says loosely "MMR works in a white room", but autofill breaks this 'white room' assumption. More accurately their claim was that MMR correctly assesses a win/loss effectively. If one person backs out of a match it breaks the MMR assessment of the initial match, and puts anyone in to plug the gap.
For example if a Killer is 2000 MMR, and the Survivors are 2200/2100/1900/1700 (avg. 1975 MMR), it would calculate that as a win for Killer. If the 1700 backed out, and a 1900 or 800 Survivor replaced them, then the match is now 2025 or 1750 avg. A win for Survivors now, or a crushing defeat for Survivors (instead of the normal loss it was before).
So they can have truth even in a statement we both consider to be flawed for greater reasons. That basically appears to be both of our positions of one another lol. We both are trying to get the other to see what we consider to be the full picture. -
@Xernoton said:
I apologise in advance, that this will be quite a wall of text even for my standards. 😥
MMR was introduced to DBD around 2 1/2 years ago iirc. Since then, the devs have made some adjustments and now it is rarely brought up in discussions anymore.
I remember at the time it was introduced, I absolutely hated it. My matches felt very constant in terms of how hard they were and that quickly became boring to me. It was also one of the reasons I adjusted my play style on both sides at the time. I didn't want my MMR to climb to a level where every game would become super sweaty and I would have to run the same perks to even have a chance.
By now, I'm mostly fine with it. My matches feel for the most part quite similar to the old rank system and I go against a large variety of players. Some are way better than me, some are worse and some I would say are pretty much on the same level. This keeps the game fresh and somewhat exciting even after thousands of hours.
This is not to say, that all of my matches are great. Not too long ago I had a string of very unenjoyable matches back to back to back. A few of those at a time are not an issue to me personally. But when it becomes consistent to the point where I play more than 20 games and cannot I enjoy a single one of them, that really sucks and it definitely took a toll on my attitude towards the game, which only made the issue worse.
While browsing YouTube, I came across this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDQS7aAzpOQ&t=1461s
and it brought up some issues with the MMR that are quite blatant. For one thing, the implementation of MMR in DBD is indeed quite deceiving. As Otzdarva explains, at no point is it ever explained to new players, that grades have no impact on matchmaking. It's also not broken down in any way how the matchmaking works.
That has led to some confusion especially for newer players. Sometimes, we'll see people try to back up their claims with the argument that they are: "Rank 1". This indicates the issue that some players are led to believe they are at the top of the top, which will impact their attitude towards the game. After all, if you're already one of the absolute best players in the game, then what do you have left to learn? How to use better perks? How to tunnel quicker?
I think this is one possible reason why the meta in this game always becomes so narrow. On both sides we have more than 100 perks. But you only see about 10-15 of them. This is partially because a lot of perks in this game are frankly horrible. Like Red Herring or Bloodhound. But not all of these perks are actually so bad. Sometimes you get the most value out of the most unexpected perks.
But when there are perks that are better and you're playing against the absolute top of the top players with only about 20 people in the world that could ever hope to compete with you in terms of skill, then of course good perks aren't enough. You need something stronger. You need the best of the best and you need it every game. You need 3 gen regression perks as a killer and an info perk and if you do end up losing, then of course it's only because you needed a 4th gen regression perk. You need WoO, Lithe, Adrenaline and Resilience with the best item (usually a toolbox or medkit) and a map offering. Every game. Because otherwise, how are you supposed to win? You're already so good, that you can't improve anymore when it comes to actual gameplay.
This is something I witness on both sides. I do not say this doesn't affect me in any way because if it does, then how would I know? I'm saying, that the game sends a message, that you are way better than you actually are. As a killer even more than as a survivor because a 60% kill rate means, that you should win more than you lose, which is something you feel even if you don't intentionally keep track of it. But it also happens as a survivor because you will often feel like something was out of your control, so you played perfectly but lost anyway.
It seems that many people don't feel comfortable with running different perks either because they fear, they will not be able to uphold their perfomance or because they haven't learned to play without them.
The notorious "high MMR" argument, that was quite common when MMR was first introduced has fallen from grace over the years. I suspect this is because some would agree with me, that we are probably not all in high MMR and making this claim without any kind of evidence to back it up (which does not exist) is not a very strong argument. So it seems to me that many of us, focus more on how our matches feel and what we experience than some theoretical number, that determines how good or bad we are.
Which also doesn't work all that great, considering that we know it only takes kills and escapes + match time into account. So you could play Blight on Midwich with 3 gen regression perks and NOED and only get a single hook and camp them with NOED to get a kill and still be considered better than the survivor that looped you for 5 minutes straight. Or you play perkless pallet Freddy on GoJ and get 8 hooks but no kills and are considered worse than the 4 people that played in a SWF with clock call outs and used their absolute strongest load outs. Obviously both of these examples are pretty extreme but the point is to show, that kills / escapes do not tell the full story.
So we have multiple issues with MMR that all kind of defy its purpose. To provide a more balanced but still well rounded experience. I believe that MMR doesn't try to consistently match you with people that are exactly on the same level as you but people that are sometimes a little better and sometimes a little worse. This is (as far as I know) the way MMR is typically implemented, though feel free to correct me on that, should that be wrong.
The point of this lengthy rundown is, that the matchmaking very heavily influences our perception of balance and it's very hard to keep these 2 apart. Who is to say the killer played better than the survivors or vice versa? We can only determine that on a case by case basis, which is quite hard, when you think about how different both roles actually are. We have 2 completely different skill sets after all and then we need to factor in how big of an impact their loadouts made.
I reckon this is not something a new player will be able to do quite as well as people with more experience. They won't have the knowledge about the strengths and weaknesses of different killers, maps, perks, items and addons and as explained above they could be more inclined to believe that they are a top percent player.
If you made it this far, then congrats, here is a cookie 😘:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/S44ICQESE8YJ/chocolate-chunk-cookies-0-6f27241.jpg
My question to you is; can and should this situation (decepting players into thinking they're way better or worse than they actually are) be improved? How would you go about it and why do you think it would be an improvement overall?
Initial feelings and where we are at now: I too thought it was garbage on release, however I still feel it is bad to this day. I enjoy 2-hook tangoing as Killer (2 hooks each Surv and release), and that is possible under Rank based matchmaking without diminishing match quality. Under MMR, you are forced to kill people in order to not have your matchmaking sabotaged.
MMR/Rank Visibility: This was something that was also much better under ranked. Even today people on this forum dismiss arguments out of hand because 'you must not be in top MMR', or seeing a >70% win rate and still thinking, 'well you must have low MMR despite the win rate'. Ranks was so much better, because it was visible, and people can't dismiss your claims on baseless reasons.
MMR/Rank Methodology: MMR is blindly using K/E, which everyone knows is a hilariously inaccurate metric. Distortion rats can climb MMR because they don't lose MMR when they get hatch. Rank based matchmaking at least measured the various in-game acts, so it directly measures your skill (at least greater than K/E) when you play the game. Now there are some exceptions, like Wraith chases in cloak, or old facecamping/current or old tunneling, but it mostly measures things correctly.
How MMR is intended: MMR in its original form, was intended to give a bell curve experience. In 10 matches, you are supposed to get 1-2 auto losses, 1-2 free wins, and 6-8 even difficulty matches. The auto loss and free wins are supposed to basically be palette cleansers between the higher stress even matches. The problem with DBD's MMR, is that you have 1 v 4 instead of 4 v 4.
In a 4 v 4, the best player on a given side should likely have a fair match against the best player on the opposite side, but destroy the remaining 3. The MMR is averaged and compared, so you have 1900/1800/1600/1500 vs 2000/1800/1600/1400, both avg, 1700. DBD has the 2000/1800/1600/1400 vs the lone 1700. That allows a Killer to always win because they can crutch by killing the 2 underskilled players every match. When the Killer actually gets a fair match with 1700/1700/1700/1700 vs 1700, they can't win by leveraging their opposition's lack of skill. That forces Survivors to sweat, expecting this to happen, and forces Killers to sweat because Survivors are expecting Killers to sweat. This negative cycle of sweat grows upon itself, until we have the horrible state of the game today.
Fixes:
There are two major issues currently, visibility, and methodology. You should be able to see your own rank/MMR, even if we decide to hide it from others. I can understand the argument for public or private MMR. As far as methodology, we need to shift the MMR from Kills to hook states. Have >8 hooks be considered a win for Killer, and camped states/1st hook kills count as more than half, but less than normal. 2 hooks each Surv should be a tie. This also allows for more granular wins. Personally I think a first hook kill should count as 2.02 (1, 0.51, 0.51), that way 4 first hook kills is still a win, but not a preferable means of play. It might even need some balance adjustments like the 2nd hook on each Surv is worth more (0.75, 1.25, 1.0), or maybe the first instead (1.25, 0.75, 1.0). The main issue is we need to shift to hook based MMR if we want to still use it.
Edit 1: Simple GrammarEdit 2: Fixed < to be > and added more context for that section
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Yes, please allow for custom scratchmark and aura colors (ideally with 3 presets for different maps). That way anyone can use whatever they want, and figure out what works for them.
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Start recording and patrol gens. If they don't touch the gens for 10 minutes straight, then they are reportable. If they touch gens, then you can seek them out. Annoying, but the report is a delayed solution.
(The 10 minutes comes from an older thread when BHVR was asked what constitutes 'holding the game hostage', the timer may have changed for their internal rules, especially given the new 3gen/kick limit, but 10 minutes was the last I was aware of.)
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@SilverCrane4643 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3694208#Comment_3694208
Again I'll keep the reply as short as possible. Like I said I'm down for a debate, so if you want share your discord name and let's have a friendly talk.
1- This was my disagreement "It doesn't matter how many backflips someone has to do IRL to unlock this magical power, it still is unfair for the opposition. If the powers were designed around their use, then maybe Oni wouldn't 1-hit down on flicks and get a new backhand animation, or Wesker would have a longer CD post-throw/slam or Deep Wound injured targets and down Deep Wounded targets, or Blight would have a longer Fatigue/token recovery time".
2- No point to talk
3- "I'm saying the other games are concrete pools with depth, and DBD is a shallow plastic pool in terms of skill expression". Reply- That's how the game started 7 years ago, but now killers have become more complicated, perks become more complicated, maps become more complicated. Let's avoid the argument "this is how the core of the game started so this is how it should be stay". Dbd started as an hide and seek game, then turned to a chase oriented because of the community. The game had many broken/op things, but they worked on these and the game is getting closer to be suited to the comp scene (there is still a lot work to do). The game started as a spooky and creepy game, but now it is getting more goofy changes, like animal skins, Nicolas perks, the april fool gamemode… What I'm saying is that the "dbd is a shallow plastic pool in terms of skill expression" is correct if the game was the same like the start. Now the game has become more complicated than ever, some in good way (base kit changes and techs) and some in a bad way (too many perks and add ons).
4- My "nonsese" was about you telling me what I should play based of what I like.
5- Ok
6- I agree that mm is not the best, but we can not ignore that at least it separates for the most part player from different skill levels.
7- "I think less than 100 total players are against this change. That still is 'many people', just not a statistically significant amount". Reply- Avoid to talk like the devs. Even though they are the minority it doesn't mean that we shouldn't consider them. These are players that are the most invested to the game, let's not forget that.
8- It seems more like a 75% selfish and 25% caring for others, but I could be wrong.
9- Doesn't seem to be.
10- " When people break the game rules, I report them". Reply- My response on that comes after that.
11- Look… I have a bit more than 5.5k hours in dbd. I started to play october 2019 and to this date I have NEVER heard or seen someone getting banned bcs of techs. There have been cases which people got banned bcs of breaking bugs (I've explained what is the differences between techs and breaking bugs). So unless you can provide any proof (with also report description) of people getting banned bcs of techs, so I'm safe to comfirm that you enjoy to waste your time for pointless selfish battle.
12- Ok
13- Ok
1 & 5: I'm now confused, because 5 was both of us agreeing that it is fine to basekit bugs if the power shifts as a result. But you disagree with that in 1. My #5 point was that if a bug provides 15 power points out of 100 expected, then we need to take away 15 from the base power if the bug will now be considered basekit.
3: I think this is perfect, because we started with one kiddie pool, and we keep grafting/duct-taping more plastic pools together hoping they keep the water in. We might have 28 kiddie pools and 3 large plastic pools strapped together, but they still lack the potential depth a purpose driven concrete pool can provide. If we want things sweaty and serious, shouldn't we have had basic QoL like ranked bans and replays and a casual playlist permanently active? We had a casual playlist (Rank based matchmaking), but now it is only a sweaty ranked playlist (MMR).
4: Lead a horse to water but can't make them drink I suppose.
6: Top 25% of players for 'top MMR' is hardly effective imo. The 25th percentile Killer has no chance against the 10th percentile players, let alone the 5th and 1st. That starts people on both Surv and Killer to crutch on powerful tools instead of improving their skill. If the 'top MMR' was 10% or 5% I would concede this point, but it is too large for me to consider it effective as is.
7: I completely understand not wanting stats based decisions. I was and still am against the 6.1 perk changes, and am glad they rolled back the nerfs on Pop/PR/(in progress) DS, and I hope they rebuff Thana into being viable on more than Legion and Plague. This however is an issue that caused far more suffering that pleasure. Every Survivor player I've typed/heard/talked to is soooooo sick and tired of Blight. This is a net positive overall.
8 & 9: I would like to know what math you are using to come to this conclusion. I can at most, be 25% of a Survivor team, all of a Killer team, or 20% of the players in any given lobby. Even if you used (.25 [Survivor]+1[Killer])/2[Averaged], you could only come up with 62.5% max.
10 & 11: Just because you haven't heard of someone getting punished for breaking the rules doesn't mean the rule doesn't exist. Just as if I've never personally seen someone ticketed for Jaywalking or Speeding doesn't mean the law doesn't exist. We aren't arguing whether or not those rules/laws should or shouldn't exist, just discussing their mere existence. Asking for proof of bans given that BHVR forum rules specifically prohibit that (or see picture below), is either blissful ignorance to be favorable, or an attempt to get me banned to be unfavorable. You can't use that as a point of proof regardless given the forum rules. Again, this point was started on you saying the game's rules were my rules. I proved that they weren't my rules so it removes 'selfish' from the equation.
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It's annoying but possible.
Step 0: Google the 'dbd support ticket' page or find it from the above menus. I use google because it is the quickest, but make sure you don't click a phishing site.
Step 1: Sign in and pick DBD.
Step 2: Pick Player reporting, then the report reason.
Step 3: Fill in the required details listed below as 1. Your Steam64ID, 2. The offender's name, or simply ANON: Surv/Killer name, 3. An unlisted youtube link of the recorded cheating. Or make it public, idc, you do you. I make them unlisted (aka only people with the link can see the video) personally.
Is this far more effort that we should need to put in? Probably. It would be fine if there were replays and you could just download and watch the replay to offload the burden of recording on the individual.
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@TieBreaker said:
I'd be happy with it just activating when you press the button. The dedicated servers are awful.
Actually yeah, if Killer hits are client sided and not confirmed by the server, then DH should also be client sided. I've had way too many VPN Killers hit me around corners and through walls and through stuns way before they even start to lunge.
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Y'know what, lets embrace this change and lean into it. Lets slow down the animation to take 20s, and the stun last 20s. The Survivor will get no distance and will always be hit off DS, but that's fine. It will serve it's purpose of delaying for tunneling.
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@SilverCrane4643 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3692279#Comment_3692279
You made so many nonsense arguments that I don't know where to start. You're comment is also way too long for this topic, but if you want we can do it on Discord instead. That allows us to be more free and avoid these big comments that leads to misunderstandings. Atm I'll just reply shortly some of your points and then you decide if you want a face to face friendly discussion.
1- "You disagree that 'a bug bypassing a restriction gives an advantage'? I'm not sure how you back up this claim". Reply- I don't think that I ever said that. You can find the answer of that in my April 1 comment.
2- "To me it would be like saying the Blood pools should be purple instead of red, it would still largely impact people with R/G colorblind, and provide nothing of value for the majority of the playerbase". Reply- Uh?
3- "Also I don't go to an Ice Cream shop and ask for a steak. DBD is where you get Ice Cream, not steaks". Reply- Terrible analogy, the black and white point of view is not good in a videogame.
4- "You want more Micro, play a Shooter or a Moba, you want more Macro, play an RTS, but DBD has a good balance of both, as is, right now". Reply- Nonsense.
5- "Bugs are not part of the designed strength, and the basekit must be adjusted for the new designed strength if the bug is going to be included as the new normal". Reply- I already said that's what I would prefer them to do. I'm fine if they nerf Blight without removing the Hugtechs, but that would stupid since there a killer called Nurse in the game.
6- "I understand that people may want changes that will give them more strength, but that doesn't mean their opposition at every skill level should have to deal with that. If it were only allowed in comp, then that's fine". Reply- Nonsense sentence here. The "every skill level" makes me wonder your knowledge of the game. At low skill level you will NEVER find killers doing techs. At mid level is very rare and those that can do it are not good with it. At high level most player can do it decently, but the high level games is a really small % of the game. The comp level all Blights can do it really well, but the survs can also deal with do it very well. So no, it doesn't affect the other level players.
7- "If it were only allowed in comp, then that's fine". Reply- Why do you think that many are against this change? I already said many times that removal of the hug techs affect especially at high and comp level. So the removal affects this part of the playerbase, so they if they keep it in the comp games that would fine, but that's not gonna happen.
8- "That is my stance, (hardly black and white) since a bug exploit is expressly reportable only in matchmade games, Comp, scrims, and all other customs can use it as much as they want". Reply- The black and white mentality makes the game less interesting. The second part of your sentence sounds like "I don't want to deal and get better with it, let other suffer that". Sounds like a selfish desire.
9- "I don't care if you flick in customs, you can keep the bug, but keep it out of normal matches". Reply- Again, it sounds like "I don't want to deal and get better with it, let other suffer that". Selfish again.
10- "When people start abusing the bugs in normals, then I want the abusers (temp) banned or the bug fixed if I need to repeatly report people for abusing it". Reply- Once again it sounds like "I don't want to deal and since I don't like I pretend a ban to these people". Weird and selfish request.
11- "I did (feel the) need to complain about the person breaking the rules in order to hit me when the power normally doesn't allow for that in that circumstance". Reply- You mean breaking your rules.
12- "There is no rule against bug usage in customs, only normal matchmade games". Reply- You can use techs, but not breaking bugs, this is included in bothe comp and pub games.
13- The last part is also weird. Don't mix gameplay action with the player action by text or voice. They are not the same thing.
Ok, I tried my best to keep it short. Like I said in the beginning if you want we can do it on Discord and have a face to face friendly discussion instead.
Prologue- It's long to provide a hearty explanation. It is long so that you don't have to assume or try to infer a position I hold, because it is detailed. I find this avenue of discussion perfectly adequate and friendly. I can't force you to reply or ignore this, but I will reply to your points regardless.
1- Your response to my post with the Oni flick picture had the first statement be "I heavily disagree the first part." My first part, which I read as being the first paragraph which that paragraph's sum conclusion was 'bugs bypassing restrictions yields an advantage'. If you meant a different part, it wasn't the first paragraph, so I don't know which 'part' you were referring to.2- Exactly, it is a non sequitur. It isn't relevant. That was the point I was making, that you were defending something that I didn't care about or find relevant. I don't need to attack/defend against a position of pigs are grey on Thursdays because I don't care if someone thinks that.
3- What about this is black and white? I'm not saying there is 0 skill expression. I'm saying the skill expression isn't worth mentioning in comparison to a place that rewards it. Alternatively think of games as swimming pools. DBD is a plastic kiddie pool you can buy for cheap, 2ft deep at tops. Plastic pools can only really get as deep as 6ft if you spend a lot of money. For a good amount of skill expression, you need a concrete swimming pool. Concrete pools usually start at 5ft minimum, and can go as deep as I've seen at 20ft. I'm saying the other games are concrete pools with depth, and DBD is a shallow plastic pool in terms of skill expression.
4- How is greater skill expression, when you want greater skill expression, nonsense? There are multiple facets of the game, and I split them into 2 major umbrellas. Micro is chase, Macro is hook states/gens/pallets broken.
5- My read of this is we agree.6- My comment here is taking into account that DBD's current matchmaking is garbage, and random skill levels are brought in all the time. I have 74% winrate on Killer before gens pop, and I frequently have 20-200hr Survs autofilled into lobbies. Autofill means anyone can play with anyone. That means all skill level players have to play with all skill level players.
7- I think less than 100 total players are against this change. That still is 'many people', just not a statistically significant amount. The majority of people don't care, want Blight nerfed anyway possible, or care about other things more. Every 'top-MMR' Survivor I've talked to or heard from is sick and tired of Blight. Sweatlord Blights who do this is soloq are ruining your ability to have fun using bugs, so blame them.8- Black and White lacks nuance, if I have nuance in my stance it can't be black and white. Since I don't care about people bug exploiting in matches I'm not involved in, I am not saying "You can't do that ever". Just because you say something is, doesn't make it true. Addressing your second point, not wanting to deal with people breaking the game rules is something that affects 4 other people in the match, whether it is a Killer abusing a bug, or a Survivor griefing their team and denying the Killer a normal match, or a software cheater denying all other players a normal match. You could say that I am at max 25% selfish, and 75% not wanting others to be victimized in preventing people from breaking the game's rules (or this one specifically). Essentially I don't want others to be victimized down the line, so I report rather than hard DCing when I find someone doing this. If I hard DCed, you could rightfully claim I'm selfish, but I don't.
9- 25% selfish again, 75% caring for others.
10- When people break the game rules, I report them. Hardly weird or selfish, but again you could claim it is 25% selfish 75% altruistic. You could even make the argument that I don't want more people than just me to be affected by people breaking the rules, that's why I even bother reporting them in the first place, so it likely is much greater than 75%. If I helped 1 match, it brought it up to 7/8 or 87.5% altruistic, and 10 matches to 39/40 or 97.5% altruistic.11- No I mean breaking the games' rules, not mine. Picture of relevant section and highlighted subsection below.
Unless you want to claim I hacked BHVR's website and changed the game rules to 'my rules', it is the games' rules, they aren't mine. My rules are things I apply to myself and not others. Like I don't intentionally tunnel unless someone wants to bodyblock, or I try to avoid camping to give them a chance of unhook. I know I could win easier if I did those things, but by using weaker Killers and not crutching on free win strategies (against soloq), I force myself to improve at the game. Those are my rules I impose upon myself, not on others.
12- That may be true, I haven't checked. I just figure if you are bothering to play a custom with someone, then everyone would have a shared understanding of what is and isn't acceptable. I would think someone would be able to confront the person directly over doing something they aren't supposed to do, as opposed to being reliant on using the reporting system. As far as I was aware they fully disabled reporting in customs, but I could be mistaken.
13- Harassment is also against the game rules. I was making the point that if I wanted to engage in breaking the game's rules, I need to do so by taking the correct path if I don't want to risk getting banned. Outside comms are not monitored by BHVR or reportable, thus Discord harassment is 'legal' in the sense that I couldn't be banned from the game for doing it. My friends might not like it, or they will insult me back, but it is divorced from the game at large regardless. -
I'm fine with the bugs as long as people keep them in customs. It isn't fair to deal with the expected functionality of powers not working correctly in normal matches, just as it isn't fair for a permanent extra 2% haste to be on one side. You want to use it with friends or in tourneys, go right ahead, just don't punish normal matchmade games with these bug exploits.
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Yes please, give like 3 custom slots for colors on auras and scratch marks and pools of blood. Borgo is near unplayable for me because I can't see scratch marks. Ormond also seems to have this issue, but I've also had actual cheaters delete their scratch marks and offer Ormond, so it might just be the common cheater tactic. I've tried various different color blind options but none of them work on Borgo and Ormond. The maps are the problem, and I just want those maps to be playable as Killer.
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@D3spair said:
Remove Survivor Techs too then.
If People here arguing that Blight's Hug Tech is using a bug to exploit, then Survivor Techs are the same then.
- Remove CJTech where Survivor exploit janky as f*ck killer controls (having the same button to carry and kick OR remove the same with Survivor going into the locker instead of vaulting the window.).
- Remove Crouch Tech for Billy and other Killers, Chainsaw Hit and Tentacles are sliding off Survivors just because they're crouched.
- Remove Heal Tech, Survivors that made a mistake gets a free "Get out of jail" card just because another Survivor is exploiting heal by holding m1
Let's remove these also as it's obvious Survivors are exploiting this bug as well. Look at it! This is not obviously meant to happen right?
If the Dev's stance is removing techs that provide results that are not meant to happen, THEN at least be fair!
Crouch Tech has been here for YEARS, it exists to all survivors! but nothing has been done for it.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueVobf6K89M
You can argue "But these techs only existed to High MMR Players". Brother/Sister in christ, so was Blight's Hug Tech. Only High MMR People can do these Techs consistently. If you're going to remove one from one side, then remove everything on all sides.Yep, 'spacebar does everything' shouldn't be something that happens on PC games, let us remap individual actions. - 'CJtech' removed
Yes, expand the hitbox vertically on attacks - 'Crouchtech' removed
Also not mentioned, but make autoaim optional please. - 360s/wall hits removed
Healtech is probably a design issue, where only 1 player can interact with another at any given time. Then again, 2 players can heal, so maybe it could be fixed if only 1 player is 'tech'ing. Might be a simple solution, might not. This may be intentional design decision also, it may not be. This is the only one up in the air.
Don't forget Wesker bugtech and Oni flicks as well! Fix the bugs that everyone can abuse, or implement them basekit as an item/add-on/perk or whatever. Have a perk to force the killer to stop you from healing to pick up. Have an add-on to flick with Oni (or have the expanded range of flicks).
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@caligraph said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3689029#Comment_3689029
Getting hit off hook is better than if they waited out BT, gives more distance. OTR forces that to happen. Would be nice if the killer didnt know you had it though.
Yeah, I'd arguably say delay the silence until after the basekit BT runs out if there isn't a penalty for hitting anti-tunnel Endurance.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3691739#Comment_3691739
1.Yes, - but no. Bleeding takes 4 minutes, exit gate camping takes 2, but exit gate camping is much more common. When i was a killer main, it was more a rule that if survivors won they would camp the exit gate, than not. in 80-90% of the games at least 1 person stood and dragged time, and tbagged the killer. - i still play a little killer and this is still the case. On the other hand, when i dont even remember the last time i was bled out by a killer when play survivor (and i do play about 85% survivor now). Lets make an example here, lets say that in 2 of 10 games all survivors leave the game with out dragging time (and i even think this is an unrealistic high number) thats 16 minutes the survivors waste of killer time. And again, ill give you an unrealistic high number that 2 our of 10 killers slug (as i said, i dont remember last time i was slugged just for the sake of slugging) thats 8 minuts wasted for the survivors.
2. So does hooking, would you prefer that survivors were invulnerable? Also if you bring the right perks, this can give survivors the edge to win the game, depending on the circumstances.
3. I dont remember last time i saw this tbh. i dont deny it is happening, but its rare (see 1 for a more in depth explanation)
4. why cant you afk? you can just tab out and watch youtube. - This is not just bleeding out, you are moving the subject into greefing. We (my swf and me) had a survivor doing something like that, first he worked with the killer, he used bond to find us, then he repetedtly jumped in and out of lockers to give away our location, then when i was hooked he repeatedtly grabbed me on the hook, and let go again, denying and hook progress or suicide, while leaving me on the hook, the killer stood next to him and watched it all. Would the argument be that hooks, lockers and Bond should be removed too??
1: I don't think exit gate camping happens more often (at least in my games), because the Killer wins the vast majority of the time (regardless of which side I'm playing). I'm only seeing it as Killer in ~20% of my losses (so ~5-10% of total matches) and it usually is only one person so it doesn't involve any longer than 10s (unlike the theoretical Gate A push, B push, A push, B push). At the same time the minimum rate for my Surv matches is 1/10 (and that isn't including matches where I die early, so it could be higher). Anecdotal is anecdotal to be fair, and both of our experiences are different.
2: Hooks still give Survivors agency to end the match, Bleedouts don't. You can Kobe and either live, or accelerate your death. Then on 2nd stage you can simply not attempt skillchecks to die. Agency exists to end (your part in) the match.3. Back to 1 for anecdotal, but my point was as long as the perks/add-ons aren't revealed when you die, or you are waiting for a friend to exit the match, it can hold additional people waiting to play beyond those strictly still 'playing' in the match. The bare minimum common case is 2 victims (slug for 4k), where gate bags has 1 victim.
4. You can't AFK if the Killer picks you up and perma-shoulders you, you have to wiggle to ensure you die. If you wiggle you can force the bleedout to occur during the weapon wipe before they pick you up. Otherwise you risk ~50m hostage (for the lobby to time out), or ~28m when they intentionally do that over and over (only accruing bleedout time during the weapon wipe). Griefing is already against the game rules and bannable, so you can record and report. Shoulder juggling to bleed someone out over ~28m is technically legal, as it will end eventually. It clearly breaks the rules in spirit, but we are stuck with the letter of the law.@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3692236#Comment_3692236
I'm not saying that it is the Killer's responsibility, I'm saying the Killer's max (normal case) victimization is 2 minutes, or shorter if they take the effort. Survivor is 4 minutes, and they NEED to take the effort to prevent it from taking longer (if the Killer shoulder Juggles them during the search). The difference is >2 vs <4. (Although if you want to expand to include Juggling and intentional Plot Twist delays, then it is >4 vs ~28).
I am saying they aren't as rare as claimed, anecdotally my Surv matches have it happen 1/10 (full on bleedouts, or slug with 0 knowledge for the 4k), if not more. Everyone's experience is different though.
Im not sure i understand this exactly, but the exit gate time dragging surely exeeds the bleedouts, i cant remember the last time i was bled for the sake of letting me bleed, but the last time someone dragged time at the exit gates, im pretty sure that was the last time i lost a killer game, so overall the avarage killer looses more time on this than the avarage survivor does.. I have played a lot killer in the past, still do a little, but mostly survivor now. - so i have seen both sides.
Team A attacks Team B : This is the bad sort of tribalism we need to move away from. Team A attacks Team B, but then next match Team B takes it out on Team C, so then Team C takes it out on Team D, and continues the chain. If it were in a custom match with friends, and you know you are facing the exact same people every time, then I have no problem with this. The misplaced guilt is what I take issue with. I am for 'matching energy', but taking things out on a different team is just being a jerk, whether I bleedout a team after I faced a clock SWF or bully a baby Trapper after something.
I hear you, but i dont think its as simple as that. Lets say a kid is getting bombarded with rocks every day when he walks home from school. At some point that kid will start throwing rocks back, and he will probaby also throw the first rock and even hit someone who never threw a rock at him.
People adapt to the situations they are in, this goes for killers aswell, i think some of them had enough and are paying back, and there are about 85% chance they are slugging someone who dragged time for them or some other killer. - that is pretty good odds.
Only had the option to bleedout: This happens to me in less than 100 games, so anecdotally I'm not sure about this. Sabo plays are really bad right now as I've once sabo'd 3 hooks (the Killer was heading in the direction of) and still failed to prevent a hook/force a drop, although it was RPD to be fair. In a normal match I pick them up and if they wiggle, I drop, kinda point at the nearest broken hook, and they either understand and would rather die sooner, or choose to die in the corner from spite. Dieing in the corner from spite is NOT what people are complaining about, although to be fair, some main brained individuals think slugging for 3s is unacceptably long, just as other main brained individuals think the crouch button should be unbound.
If it were just for the sabos, i have had games where people swfs put on Crotus Prenn Asylum, everyone had Boil Over and when wounded they ran to a "safe" spot in the main building close to the hole in the floor, There is no chance to get them to a hook from there if they have boil over, and they just stopped the chase there, waited for me to down them or give up and go away. - If i picked them up they would get free and run straight back. I turned to the next survivor and the exact same happened. Same thing with the Springwood map, if the killer basement is not in the basement of the main building, then that basement is completley safe as long as survivors have boil over - the killer cant get you to a hook, no matter what. Eyrie of Crows do also have a location in the tower where this is true. - the only counter is to bleed people to death.
It is hostage taking in spirit, yes. Are they allowed to continue playing the game? No (or if they are waiting in the post-game lobby, no if they want the info they should be afforded when the match is over for them). Are they kept in for an indefinite period of time? Yes. Will it end? Technically anywhere from 4m to as high as ~28 minutes if they get shoulder juggled and the Surv fights back to die as soon as possible (longer if they run after getting unshouldered or the Killer waits to down them). Just as technically all matches end at 1hr. Does it reach the standards to report for a ban? No. That's why it is breaking the rule in spirit, but not the letter.
The game will end efter 4 minutes, so its not hostage taking - end of story.
When i played killer I have had survivors holding me in a game for more than 25 minutes many times, refusing to do gens, just locker switching all the time, or walking in circles at the edges of the swamp map, or waling in circles in the basement. - Thats closer to taking the game hostage, as the game have no function to detect that survivors are not progressing on the objective, and the killer cant just go and open the gate. - if the killer goes AFK is situations like that, they will be DCed and get a penalty. Bleeding takes 4 minutes and you are on, not enough time to get DCed so you can tab out and watch youtube.
I never said it was the Killer's responsibility to end the match for t-bag at gates, I said they have the agency to shorten the timer. Very different message. The Survivor doesn't have agency to shorten the timer below 4 minutes, the Killer can wait 2 mins or shorten it. (To be fair if you were saying I was downplaying that spot, then fair, but I wasn't shifting responsibility.) That all falls apart even further when I suggested a surrender feature for anyone to fully quit with their BP though.
I ment no offence, but saying that the killer can just go and push them out - is to put the responsibility on the killer, for the actions of the survivors. And im against the surrender option, it will be abused to circumvent the DC penalty.
Perks shouldn't be fixes for bad game design. I shouldn't be forced to run No Mither (the only infinite self-pickup perk that the Killer can't cancel [other than the circumstantial Soul Guard]) because I want to avoid bleedouts, or Plot Twist if I want to tray and evade and bleedout myself to prevent the Killer from Juggling.
A lot of killers feel forced to run 2 or more gen slowdowns to have a chance (depending on the killer they play). No Mither are probably the worst of the counter perks you can choose, that being said - you should run what you need to survive, what good is 3 gen rush perks if you die? If you need those perks to survive, sure you should run them.
Section 1: Back to previous reply section 1, anecdotal for each.
Section 2: I didn't want to say it in the previous reply/part 1 because it didn't seem relevant, but the kid/rock analogy fits this perfectly. The vast majority of exit gate bags is in response to something the Killer did, such as camping/tunneling/picking a sweatlord Killer like Nurse/etc. Since I am a 'D-tier main', who doesn't intentionally tunnel or camp, I nearly never see them as Killer. I only included the 20% of times I saw a teammate to bag a Killer in soloq for the above reply, and that was only when we could even win a soloq match.
Section 3: I understand this can happen, but again it is few and far between, with anecdotal experience varying. Would you say it happens as often as 1/100 matches where people intentionally map offer into Boil Over? Even then, my point here was the people doing this can't expect anything other than bleeding out, and don't have a justification to complain about a bleedout death. They could still use a surrender feature I would want if they realize the Killer isn't missing a brain.
Section 4: Again, the Survivor 'hostage' issue is bannable. Record and report. (Specifically if a Survivor refuses to touch a gen once per 10 minutes is the technical line in the sand.) The Killer 'hostage' issue isn't bannable (currently). I would just want a surrender feature for Killer or Survivor to take their earned BP and go home to prevent these scenarios for both sides.
Section 5: Saying 'the timer is 2 minutes, AND you can shorten it if you want' is NOT putting responsibility on the Killer to end it in 2 minutes. You can say it is putting responsibility on the Killer to have it take shorter than 2 minutes, but the issue being compared here for Killer is 2 min without input, less with input. Agency exists to make that decision. For Survivor it is 4 min without input, but you need to monitor to make sure they aren't carrying you, so it isn't a true AFK like Killer's. Since you need to remain at the Keyboard, there isn't agency for Survivor, just required actions. Also a surrender feature should only be available when the game is either over, or can be considered over. The Survivors can make that decision after a death if they want to stay or play. Why would you want to force people to play a 3v1 at 5 gens? That isn't bypassing the DC timer, that's bypassing wasting their lives. Similarly if someone was AFK long enough to reach 3 crows, it clearly wasn't a real or fair match, as it effectively was the same thing as a 3v1 at 5 gens, or an intentional bleedout. The Killer can make that decision at any point in the game if they can win or not, but I would add a 5-10 minute minimum game time for Killer.
Section 6: (Loose quote) "A lot of Killers 'feel' like they need multiple gen slowdown." I think this is more that people don't realize the value of lethality and intel, and are too scared to expand their horizons. Chasing a Survivor denies gen seconds, but the rest of the team is able to pump gens. That means delaying a chase to apply slowdown is silver plattering gen time to 3 people equal to the extended chase time. A gen kick takes 1.8s (plus however long it takes to move into close enough position to magnet on). That gives the Survivor 7.2 extra meters of distance. If a normal M1 Killer catches up at 0.6m/second, they give the Survivors 12 extra realtime seconds. If 3 Survs are on gens, and this is to chase the 4th after the kick, the Killer gives the Survivor team 36 free gen seconds. This means most players are hurting their chances of winning by using gen kick perks ineffectively. You can also reverse this equation to see how much time you steal from the Survivors by shortening chase through bypassing the 'find the Survivor' time with Intel, as well as Lethality methods of shortening chase. -
@tonydim said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3692466#Comment_3692466
This is where I believe we have conflicting views. You believe slow-down is not the reason he is unfun, I believe that exactly.
Clown is only becoming slightly faster, but in no way he is becoming Blight faster or Nurse faster.
Oh well, I think we're just going back and forth infinitely now lmao
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3692467#Comment_3692467
The ability to turn fast vaults into medium vaults could still be valid.
Unfortunately, I cannot take just your experience of continuously curbstomping survivors. I understand you may be a strong Clown, but we need to take into account which MMR you play in + your subjective strength. Many players would not be on the same page as you so I would say it's futile to bring up personal experience. We'd need to take several experiences into account (which is what I believe BHVR does with the entire stats system).
Your last paragraph on tunneling, I agree with fully. Not tunneling on clown, however, makes it so you are immediately searching for your next chase after a hook. This can be extremely hard on Clown: if survivors are doing generators the greatest counter to Clown is hiding or pre-running, which causes him to waste time and additionally having the survivor on hook be saved with the Clown risking having no next target, losing all momentum and pressure. This tends to happen often on high MMR.
The slow removes 15% of 4m/s for 2.5s (plus cloud time). That loses Survivors 1.5+ meters of distance. The vault loses them .4s, or 1.6 equivalent meters of distance. Combined it would yield ~3m. The best you could do instead is force slow vaults, but the equivalent distance loss there is 4m, and that might be too much (without doing some bizarre reverse Resilience vault penalty on top of the forced Medium vault, but then pallets are still only fast or slow vaults without medium). It just seems too finicky to deal with
As far as MMR, if you maintain a high enough winrate as Killer it would impossible to not be in 'top MMR'. It also has the soft loss prevention, where losses don't lose the proper amount of MMR, so once you reach it you can't go below unless you lose at a far greater rate than 50%.
Searching for Survivors is monstrously easy with Cigar box, and you get soooooo many free hits from people not realizing until too late that you have it. It hard counters (non-Distortion) stealth unless they are crazy enough to enter a locker, but nobody does that without a perk. Even then, I love Floods+PR, because nobody suspects it. I always dedicate either Cigar or a perk to intel though, so finding Survs isn't an issue. -
The entire point of clown's slow is to be heavy enough to prevent distance, and convert Fast Vaults (0.5s) into Medium Vaults (0.9s). The manifesto Clown main has detailed under every specific loop, how you can get a hit with 2-3 bottles. So I heavily disagree with decreasing the slow. Just as MfT required some loops to be re-learned by the opposition, Clown's power acts in the same way where the opposition needs to re-learn the loop.
As far as his power being too weak, I would agree before the latest bottle capacity increase without add-ons. Now, I think he can stand solid enough without add-ons, although I always bring 2 yellows minimum, regardless of Killer. He has not impressive mobility, but above average. Like Bubba, a dedicated main can squeeze every bit of efficiency out of them, and find out when to use their power for map mobility. Bubba's is at 3 saws, or 2 with certain add-on combos, and Clown is now efficient with hitting all Purples, and he used to need to use some Yellows on himself to net positive distance (either adding to his, or subtracting from Survs) after the reload.
As far as tunneling and camping, 100% disagree. I was consistently winning against Survivors with 80s gens while never bothering to tunnel or camp. (I still consistently win without tunneling or camping, but I used to too.) If someone plays with a certain playstyle or tool or perk or item or add-on, then can't use that thing, they will start losing as either side. That would drop their MMR until they go against people that are roughly the same skill as them once again, without the tool that was previously, what I consider, a crutch. Then eventually that person will improve and adjust.
If a Killer starts playing without tunneling or camping, the mindset of applying pressure is completely different. During tunneling, a Killer has 2-3 Survs on gens until the first Surv is dead (2 when unhooking, 3 when in chase). If the tunneled chase victim is good, most of the map resources are too much for a tunneling Killer to win. During spread pressure, a Killer has 1-3 Survs on gens, and the Survs lack shared knowledge (1 when healing and unhooking and travel to and from, 3 when the healing is done). With the lack of shared knowledge, a Killer can send a new Surv to a deadzone they don't know about, where the Tunnel victim knows they already dropped that pallet. Bringing overwhelming pressure perks in chase cuts this time also, and gen slowdown that requires kicks delays this better slowdown. Essentially Tunneling gives the (good) Survivors 3 gen seconds per real second, but during non-tunneling it only affords Survs 1 gen second per real second. The Survivors may have more real seconds to play, but almost 1/3rd the gen seconds to escape with. This doesn't even account for when multiple Survivors are forced to attempt a rescue or risk an extra state (which good Survivors soak when they know the Killer is tunneling/camping). -
@WeirdHexButOk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3692305#Comment_3692305
Sounds like something the Plague would be capable of. Though, I'm not sure if that's how it works, I haven't unlocked her yet.
Sounds like I don't want more people abusing that perk being bugged on a Killer I would refuse to call out by name.
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Imagine if you could damage someone by filling up a bar on the Survivor with your M2 that also applied Broken when injuring them, and that Killer also didn't lose PWYF stacks when using that M2. That would be crazy and even more broken.
Clown used to drop PWYF stacks on bottle toss, so I think its a bug. You should probably report it as a bug thread instead.
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@Ohyakno said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3691372#Comment_3691372
Yeah, let me push the two survivors at one gate out, trundle to the other gate, push the other child out, then wander around the map for several minutes trying to find the Mikaela that is hiding to be spiteful for nearly the entire duration of the egc because the killer is always a no good bad person.
Or you could just let killers leave and simplify that entire situation. It harms nothing.
Exactly, add a surrender button that can be used by anyone in the match to leave with the BP they earned. Survivors can require at least 1 dead or all in the dying state, and Killer can be anytime when the gens are completed. If this needs to be adjusted we can see how it plays out, but there is no need to force someone to play a game they have no faith in anymore.
Edit: I saw someone else mention endgame challenges. Just flag those challenges as 'endgame' and if someone activates the surrender feature, the other side auto-completes their 'endgame' challenges as an alternate condition.
Edit 2: 3 AFK crows should count as a dead Survivor for the purpose of this system. Everyone knew the match was a 3v1, as that is functionally the same as 1 dead. There also should be an alternative exit case for an early Killer quit/surrender, but I'm not sure what could be done. -
@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3691800#Comment_3691800
The old finisher Mori system was scrapped, because a bunch of survivors brought stuff like Flip flop, breakdown (or power struggle), unbreakable, tenacity… and were purposely placing themselves in situations where they couldn’t be hooked.
The main point is that when survivors got anti-slugging, they purposely weaponized it.
I thought it was scrapped because Killers started to refuse to hook and were speedrunning 4 downs. That's at least what happened in my Survivor games during that PTB. I wanted the basekit 45s UB (or even better 60s UB, with 30s to 95%, and 30s more to self-pickup), but I didn't want the auto-Mori as it didn't even give me a choice (and was going to delete Devour Hope). BHVR was tying the 2 separate ideas together for whatever bizarre reason.
I think Moris should be basekit if you reach 8 hooks no kills, that way Killers can show their skill by the number of Mori vs normal kills. " A:'I got 2 Mori Kills and 1 hook kill last match', B:'Oh yeah, I got 3 Mori kills!' A:'Awesome!' C:'I got a 4k last match!' A:'Wait how many Moris?' C:'Uh, none' B:'Oh, uh you do you man' ". -
@SilverCrane4643 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3691550#Comment_3691550
I heavily disagree the first part. You ignored pretty muh what I've said, which was that a tech creates a complex interaction that allows more skill expression from both sides. The low or mid tier players are not that affected by techs, this affect a lot high level players. You are talking about the "supposed playstyle" which makes sense, but like I said already and stop ignoring it… it does not affect most of the players. The high level players are the ones that like to scrim, do 1v1 and play tournaments. We want to express our skill even outside the "supposed way". If you say that you don't think that Blight's hugtechs are fun, but stop with black and white arguments like the"supposed way", "bug=fix" or "devs said it is bug, no discussion then".
On the other hand, I understand and I maybe agree the second part of your comment. You say "if they want to keep the hugtechs, nerf his base kit". I would prefer this change honestly, but don't use Oni as an example. Yes, I'm an Oni main so I might biased, but I genuinely don't see it problematic. If you look at any killer tier list you'll see that he's placed most of the time mid A tier and sometimes bottom A tier. In DbdL which is organized by veteran people, they have put him at Tier 3 (the same as Artist and Demo). At this level you can bet they all know how to flick, but since Oni has to gain his power which is also very limited, he has a tech that allows more comeback and skill expression.
You might say, ok let's make easier for him to get his power and remove his flicks. We come to the same problem like Blight… it lowers the skill ceiling and skill expression. Me as an Oni main I like to show my dedication and my skills outside the realm of the "supposed way". I would take any day an Oni which might have a problem getting his power, but at least he's scary to have him against. Btw your Trapper example has a similar problem with SkyBilly, which there is no chase interaction. There is a reason why people in general prefer to play against a Hillbilly than a Knight. People enjoy killers that have a power which allow fast reaction moments in chase and that don't limit their movement.
You disagree that 'a bug bypassing a restriction gives an advantage'? I'm not sure how you back up this claim.
As for the part you want me to address, I don't find relevant. That's why I haven't addressed it. To me it would be like saying the Blood pools should be purple instead of red, it would still largely impact people with R/G colorblind, and provide nothing of value for the majority of the playerbase. Also I don't go to an Ice Cream shop and ask for a steak. DBD is where you get Ice Cream, not steaks. Got to a steakhouse if you want steaks. If you want to express your skill, do so in a game the rewards that, like DOTA or Counter Strike. When I hear 'I want greater skill expression in Dead by Daylight this specific way', I also hear 'I don't value the rest of the skill expression the game provides'. There is macro skill, and there is micro skill. Macro skill is where the majority of the game's skill expression lies, but people only want micro skill expression since it's flashier. You want more Micro, play a Shooter or a Moba, you want more Macro, play an RTS, but DBD has a good balance of both, as is, right now.
The 2nd paragraph is my core point. Bugs are not part of the designed strength, and the basekit must be adjusted for the new designed strength if the bug is going to be included as the new normal. As for general tier lists and specific org's tier lists, they are purpose driven. Otz's tier list is for top tier MMR, aka the top 25% of the playerbase. A comp tier list is for dealing with the specific rules of comp, and caliber of opponents. In comp, there largely isn't a 'weak link', but in matchmade games there most often is. In comp, clock callouts coordinating activities is the norm, in matchmade games they aren't. I understand that people may want changes that will give them more strength, but that doesn't mean their opposition at every skill level should have to deal with that. If it were only allowed in comp, then that's fine. That is my stance, (hardly black and white) since a bug exploit is expressly reportable only in matchmade games, Comp, scrims, and all other customs can use it as much as they want. Regular matchmade games have the rule to disallow bug exploits for an advantage. I don't care if you flick in customs, you can keep the bug, but keep it out of normal matches. When people start abusing the bugs in normals, then I want the abusers (temp) banned or the bug fixed if I need to repeatly report people for abusing it. Keeping it out of sight keeps it out of mind. I never needed to complain about someone in a different match than mine. I did (feel the) need to complain about the person breaking the rules in order to hit me when the power normally doesn't allow for that in that circumstance.
Skill expression needs to include micro decisions, as well as macro. Disarming trapper traps is a macro skill decision. "Is it worth my time to disable that trap, or should I pump the gen instead?" Worrying about chase interaction as the only skill expression is short-sighted at best, and willfully ignorant at worst. People may like fast powers, but people also like long-form tactical powers, sadly 'Chess-Merchant' has largely poisoned that well (in both design and those who play her). I play Ghosty and Trapper in a very tactical and macro oriented way. I pre-stalk 2-4 Survs before even starting my first chase. Trapper is the opposite, I place 1 or 2 traps and rush into action. I need to get high value traps set and get people off gens before it is too late for me to snowball. Both involve large amounts of macro skill and snowballing pressure for my wins, and the Survivors could win if they displayed any macro skill (chase me and disable my power). Since people have so little respect for macro, they don't do that, and lose as a result against me.
I understand if you want to show your skills outside the realm of the 'supposed way', but customs/scrims is the place for that. There is no rule against bug usage in customs, only normal matchmade games. You can have your cake (bug not fixed) and eat it (play without getting banned when using it), just use the appropriate avenue. Just like if I want to verbally berate someone, I have to have them in my Discord call instead of typing it in endgame chat. The rules are (oversimplied) 'don't harass using in-game tools', so I can play customs and bully my friends in Discord with a "they're coming to get you Bar-bar-UH" and then attack them from the shadows and call them a slur/swear to throw them off. I can't do that in normals. (Actually I just double-checked and the 'Harassment' rules are surprisingly light in comparison. I can say to an opponent "you are 2% stinkier than the normal person", and since that's an insult, it's illegal, regardless of the tame and absurdist nature of the insult. The bug abuse rules are far harder to break by accident by using normal intuition.)
Shorter summary- Play customs if you want to break the rules, then you can use bugs, and people won't complain about rules being broken
- Skill Expression includes Micro and Macro, if you ignore Macro, of course there is going to be a lack in skill expression
- If you want more Skill Expression play DOTA/CS/SC, games that actually reward skill expression
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3691739#Comment_3691739
Its not someone eleses responsibility to fix what you do, nor can they be held responsible for your actions ect. - suggesting that is just toxic. - so please stop pushing that on to the killer, this is purely on the survivors.
Bleedouts take longer, yea sure. But they are really rare, and if the survivors stand at the exit gate to tbag anyway for 80% of the games, who cares?
Team A drags time from Team B (and have been doing that for a really long time). Now Team B is dragging tme from team A as a consequence of that. And now Team A dont think its fun anymore? - im not sure if i should laugh or cry.
Also i have had killer games where my only option was to bleed survivors, because they abused game mechanics to make them unhookable.
That is not considered hostage taking, so quit the over-dramatizations.
Its kind of tireing that a lot of survivor mains think its ok, and even trying to downplay or even push the responsibility (as you do now) for the exit gate camping to the killer, and over-dramatizatize the bleedouts.
As i already said, If this is such a big problem, then there is perks to counter it, and if you dont want to "waste" a perk slot for that, then the problem isnt really that big that you make it sound.
And for the record, no im not a killer main anymore - check my post history if you think i am.
I'm not saying that it is the Killer's responsibility, I'm saying the Killer's max (normal case) victimization is 2 minutes, or shorter if they take the effort. Survivor is 4 minutes, and they NEED to take the effort to prevent it from taking longer (if the Killer shoulder Juggles them during the search). The difference is >2 vs <4. (Although if you want to expand to include Juggling and intentional Plot Twist delays, then it is >4 vs ~28).
I am saying they aren't as rare as claimed, anecdotally my Surv matches have it happen 1/10 (full on bleedouts, or slug with 0 knowledge for the 4k), if not more. Everyone's experience is different though.Team A attacks Team B : This is the bad sort of tribalism we need to move away from. Team A attacks Team B, but then next match Team B takes it out on Team C, so then Team C takes it out on Team D, and continues the chain. If it were in a custom match with friends, and you know you are facing the exact same people every time, then I have no problem with this. The misplaced guilt is what I take issue with. I am for 'matching energy', but taking things out on a different team is just being a jerk, whether I bleedout a team after I faced a clock SWF or bully a baby Trapper after something.
Only had the option to bleedout: This happens to me in less than 100 games, so anecdotally I'm not sure about this. Sabo plays are really bad right now as I've once sabo'd 3 hooks (the Killer was heading in the direction of) and still failed to prevent a hook/force a drop, although it was RPD to be fair. In a normal match I pick them up and if they wiggle, I drop, kinda point at the nearest broken hook, and they either understand and would rather die sooner, or choose to die in the corner from spite. Dieing in the corner from spite is NOT what people are complaining about, although to be fair, some main brained individuals think slugging for 3s is unacceptably long, just as other main brained individuals think the crouch button should be unbound.
It is hostage taking in spirit, yes. Are they allowed to continue playing the game? No (or if they are waiting in the post-game lobby, no if they want the info they should be afforded when the match is over for them). Are they kept in for an indefinite period of time? Yes. Will it end? Technically anywhere from 4m to as high as ~28 minutes if they get shoulder juggled and the Surv fights back to die as soon as possible (longer if they run after getting unshouldered or the Killer waits to down them). Just as technically all matches end at 1hr. Does it reach the standards to report for a ban? No. That's why it is breaking the rule in spirit, but not the letter.
I never said it was the Killer's responsibility to end the match for t-bag at gates, I said they have the agency to shorten the timer. Very different message. The Survivor doesn't have agency to shorten the timer below 4 minutes, the Killer can wait 2 mins or shorten it. (To be fair if you were saying I was downplaying that spot, then fair, but I wasn't shifting responsibility.) That all falls apart even further when I suggested a surrender feature for anyone to fully quit with their BP though.
Perks shouldn't be fixes for bad game design. I shouldn't be forced to run No Mither (the only infinite self-pickup perk that the Killer can't cancel [other than the circumstantial Soul Guard]) because I want to avoid bleedouts, or Plot Twist if I want to tray and evade and bleedout myself to prevent the Killer from Juggling.I don't care what side you play, as long as we can get loadouts shown when you die, and a surrender feature implemented (for both sides and to keep BP/not accrue a DC stack for bans).
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@fulltonon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3691739#Comment_3691739
"Bleeding out for 4k" is perfectly legit no matter how you think, killer is still trying to get objective and there is even an achievement called adapt that encourage you to do such.
Only "unneeded" bleeding out is the situation where everyone is downed but killer just refuses to hook, which just doesn't happen in 99% of matches (unless you play in an extremely toxic way to the point killer want you to suffer, I guess?).
Bleedouts for 4k: I'm not taking issue with a Killer doing this, I'm taking issue with the post-game screen not giving you post-game info when the game is over (for you). I'm also taking issue with the lack of a surrender feature, as giving up on hook and opening gates are surrender features.
That "unneeded" bleeding out is the same type of bleeding out that occurs when slugging for the 4k (without intel on the final Surv). Personally I would rate this occurring in my Survivor matches at about 1 in 10, and that doesn't include matches where I died and left before perks were revealed, so the number is likely higher than that.
Give post-game info in post-game, and give a surrender feature after 5-15 minutes for both sides to safely quit with their BP, and with a static 1m matchmaking block. That way people don't just surrender on sight of their most hated Killer for free, and there still is a reasonable penalty to prevent abuse. It could even be limited to 1/day with an extra prompt on quitting "do you want to use your free quit for the day, although if it were limited like that then I would remove the 1m matchmaking block and just use the normal escalating temp ban (skipping your freebie). -
@BlightedDolphin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3691663#Comment_3691663
No collision can still be abused as you already pointed out. Not to mention that often you try to go for the unhooker after the get the rescue but because of auto aim it locks onto the unhooked and you hit them by mistake. You don't even need to run with the survivor, you could be inside the killers hit box and auto aim will hit them and the killer would have no way of knowing you were there. It would be way too abusable and way too punishing for something that could happen by mistake.
You could go the route of making no collision also mean you can't get hit. This should only affect the base kit endurance and not OtR because 80 seconds of intangibility could also be massively abusable (trigger every single Hag trap, solve Pinhead's box and he can't stop it, follow Ghost Face around and completely nullify his power). No collision and no damage for 15 seconds though wouldn't be much of an issue because you can't really do anything in that time but 80 seconds is too much.
Running 2 survivors for 80 seconds is also very bad for you. Yes only 2 survivors are on gens, but they are making progress and you aren't. That's almost 2 gens worth and you've made no progress at all. On paper it is the same amount of slow down as Pentimento, but Pentimento doesn't stop you from progressing your objective.
I personally think if the Survivor is within 2-5m of another Survivor it would be best to remove attack collision as well, but that might not be an option (programmatically). I seriously don't think the Killer will have no clue that the Survivor is trailing them chasing the rescuer, especially since the Killer is faster by default, let alone Bloodlust as well.
I only used the OTR 80s as an exaggeration, because it should take no longer than 20-30s to get a hit, and another 5-25s powerless to get the down (either tunneled or on the rescuer). It is fine as long as matchmaking isn't sending 800MMR baby Killers against 2000MMR clock SWFs, but even then that would be a matchmaking problem, not a problem with this proposal.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/410054/bleeding-out-needs-to-be-adressed
Here we go again… i think this is the weekly topic by now.
Bleeding out a survivor is no worse than survivors dragging time for the killer when they have won the game, but camp the exit gate. This happens in about 80% of the games. They are forcing killers to go and push them out, they even split in 3 some times, so that the killer have to go to both exit gates and the hatch.
But as soon as the killer slugs them for 4 minutes, all hell breaks loose and they go to the forum and complain about it...
- If this is such a big problem, then there is perks to counter it, and if you dont want to "waste" a perk slot for that, then the problem isnt really that big that you make it sound.
Its rare that i get bled out.
I don't think it is comparable in remotely the same degree. First off, Bleeding Out takes 4 minutes, and if you open the gate yourself as Killer it takes 2 minutes max (or if you want to annoy yourself you can make it take double time, but that is self-imposed). Hypothetically you could run into someone who purposely brought Plot Twist+No Mither+Tenacity to troll by hiding in endgame, but then you had a No Mither enemy during the entire match, so I think it evens out.
Secondly, Bleedouts have no (meaningful) agency. A Killer can force people out for t-bagging at gates, or even get a hook or Kill out of it. A slugged Survivor can't do anything other than prep a 95 for a pickup, or crawl under a pallet. If the Killer is purposely bleeding people out though, there is nothing they can do until they add a surrender feature like opening the gate for Killer.
Third, too many Killers play like a $5 subway card is on the line, slugging for the 4k, often when they have 0 idea or way of finding out where the remaining Surv is. For anyone wanting to see the Killer's perks/Add-ons/Offering/their friend exit the match (whether they played together in that match or not), they also have to wait through this, even if they died first. This is something that was implemented to prevent SWFs from snitching perks, but then it has 0 reason to exist in soloq, and I would even argue if a Killer can't win a 3v1 with snitched perks they don't have enough skill to win regardless (so it wouldn't affect the outcome). So a Killer can hold a up to a maximum normal 4 people hostage in spirit (Dead Survs A/B who want to see the perks, Slugged Surv C, and Hiding Surv D).
Finally even if its rare, its the prolonged suffering that makes it so annoying to deal with and forces complains to right this wrong. If a Sweaty Clock SWF rushes a win, they leave the match in ~3 minutes. The Killer can still engage that entire time. The slugged Surv (and waiting lobby Survs [for their casual SWF teammates or perks to be revealed]) has the minimum 4 minute timer, but the Killer could pick up and drop them in a hatch fight and force them to run around or AFK for even longer.
So in summary- Surrender exists for Killer and not Survivor
- Bleedouts deny the ability to do anything (meaningful)
- The frequency of slug for 4k is far too high, and may hold 2-4 Players hostage (in spirit) at any time.
- The 4 minutes can be artificially extended by picking up and dropping Survs, so you can't simply AFK if the Killer does this to you. (While the Killer can AFK in endgame collapse.)
So bleeding out is no worse?
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Stuff like this is why I think Smash Hit should give Endurance while dropping pallets (and maybe 2s linger after for things like Wesker slam). That way even if you don't get the stun, you can use it to be protected against lag. It can then exhaust you if the Endurance is procced or the stun gives you the sprint.
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@BlightedDolphin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3691635#Comment_3691635
Endurance hits should not be a part of this since survivors could abuse it by body blocking.
This also has the downside that after triggering DS, your best option now is to continue tunnelling. Since you can no longer teleport with killer like Dredge or Freddy and you can no longer stop all those people triggering your traps as Hag, you can't go looking for someone else as easily and your best bet is to just keep tunnelling. I think that kind of defeats the purpose a bit.
Also 110 killers like Slinger and Hag are hurt by this way worse than anyone else (except Nurse).
The only killer who's power should be lost is Nurse, everyone else doesn't need this. DS is fine after that and then make some other base kit form of anti-tunnelling.
I already pre-empted bodyblocks by removing collision (during anti-tunnel effects being active). So that is already (mostly) solved. (found in parenthetical at end of first paragraph)
Understandable with sunk-cost fallacy and commit on chase. Arguably DS should give speed or stealth post stab, that way you can Background Player level sprint away, or Shadow Step+Iron Will hide in a corner safely. I think it is better to take a DS and plan on using that to your advantage later, or simply not tunnel at all to bypass those perks, but not everyone thinks ahead as Killer. I autopilot as Bubba to be fair and chase the first I see.110 Killers (and 115) still have to make the active choice to tunnel and risk the consequences. Covered under the 'self-victimization' portion (found in 2nd paragraph). Also 110 isn't as debilitating in terms of macro as people would have you believe. Over 25s (or tunneling at 5 gens under the proposal), 4.6 gets you 115m, and 4.4 gets you 110m. Over 5s (or tunneling at 1 gen under the proposal), 4.6 gets you 23m and 4.4 gets you 22m. That basically means 1m per gen remaining of lost distance from 110 to 115.
I do think at the minimum every Killer that can move/attack faster than 8m/s should be impacted (Blight/Oni/Wesker/Demo/Billy/Huntress/Slinger/etc.), but keeping it universal as 'Killer Incapacitation' fits better imo. It can be the Entity removing the powers it gave to the Killers, being more thematically appropriate, and universally applied keeps it fair across the board.
The only aspect that could be unfair is abusing the game's poor autoaim with the bodyblock point, and trying to run in another Survivor's model to disable the Killer's power. I don't know how autoaim could be fixed, or if it can be, so this is the largest flaw I see. At the same time, if I am running 2 Survivors for the OTR duration, I am getting 33% effective gen slowdown as the Survivor could have been pumping gens instead. I'll take a free 10% boosted Pentimento any day. -
@OrangeBear said:
Thanataphobia was truly ruined in 6.1.2. The changes they made were in response to legion and plague using it, but what they did is make the perk terrible on basically every other killer and hardly worth running on legion and plague.
Not really sure how it should be changed but it should be changed in a way that makes it more applicable to all killers and it should reward hit and run.
The sad thing is they buffed Thana from 5% to 5.5% per Surv in 6.1. That was obviously too much in combination with 10 extra seconds on gens (that 6.1 added), so they could have buffed it by simply not touching it. Then if was still an issue, they could have nerfed it to maintain parity with pre 6.1 power by dropping it to 4.5% per Surv. ~4s at 1, ~9 at 2, ~14s at 3, and ~20s at 4. (See picture for full chart). Instead they picked the worst option to make the best users of Thana now practically the only users of it. (I still think 4.5% per Surv would be perfect, as it would be just as strong as it used to be in terms of additive gen slowdown.)
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@Peanits said:
First, I just want to make it absolutely clear that this is not intended to 'solve tunneling'. This change is solely to make the perk provide more consistent value when it activates, not bring an end to the entire tunneling playstyle. I wouldn't recommend approaching this with the idea that it will end tunneling entirely as that is not the purpose behind the change - you would be setting yourself up for disappointment.
Secondly, regarding disabling Killer powers: I see this getting suggested a lot, but this is not an option. It's one of those things that sounds really simple on paper, but once you start drilling down into it, it turns out to be a whole can of worms. Each Killer power works differently from one another, and there is no one-size-fits all solution that can apply to all of them. Each power would need to be considered on a case by case basis to determine what should happen when they're 'disabled'.
For example, even if you disable the Killer's power button to stop The Nurse from blinking, there are multiple Killers who may already have traps set up around the map - would these also need to be disabled, or are they okay since they were already there? Some Killers also have passive powers/mechanics, such as The Cenobite's Chain Hunt, which would also need to be considered. It would also limit the possibilities for future Killer powers since we would always need to worry, "But how would it work if it was disabled by this one specific perk?"
To be frank, this would be unsustainable. With over 30 Killers in the game and more on the way, having special conditions for each one would require far too much ongoing support just to make that condition feasible. To give an real example from the past, the original version of Tinkerer used to increase the effectiveness of all charge speed add-ons. Even with only a handful of Killers in the game at the time, it ended up being very confusing for players to keep track of which add-ons it could affect, a nightmare to balance because those add-ons could be too strong with the perk or too weak without it, and an unreasonable amount of work to upkeep as the game grew. In the same way, this would require quite a bit of additional work to be done for every Killer just to support one perk. It's one of the reasons that perks typically don't interact with powers, and the few that do are gradually moving away from that (e.g. Adrenaline waking up Survivors).
Don't get me wrong, it's a neat idea and the intention behind it is good, but it's way outside the scope for a single perk and could quickly turn into a confusing mess.
To be fair the 'disable power' could just disable the buttons associated with powers (not only RMB, but Control and any other power associated buttons like spacebar for power pickup (but not vaulting of course)). Disabling Hag's teleport would mean you could trip her web of traps (by running) with no problem. It is mainly the strongest Killers that this would impact, as I don't see that many people complaining about Trapper tunneling. Cenobite couldn't teleport to a box solve or use power to interrupt it, even if the normal chain hunt could still be active. I wouldn't even limit this to DS, and include it in hitting anti-tunnel Endurance as well (along with disabling collision until a CA post-hook).
The issue is this type of Killer 'incapacitation' can only be self-inflicted. You never need to tunnel (outside of Deliverance in endgame as the final Surv leaves, but if it lasted 5s/gen remaining as a general rule, then this wouldn't happen), so the Killer would know they are only victimizing themself.
For sake of argument disabling each Killer's buttons (including on Anti-Tunnel Endurance) would do the following. If not mentioned, tokens/CD still recovers.- Trapper - Set/pickup and rearm disabled, previously set traps remain
- Wraith - Can't re-enter power
- Billy - Can't Saw
- Nurse - Can't Blink
- Myers - Can't Stalk, existing T3 would remain
- Hag - Can't Trap/TP, existing traps remain
- Doctor - Can't Shock/Blast, illusions popping up on Madness Survivors remain
- Huntress - Cant Throw (Depending on how it is coded, searching lockers might also disable reloading, fine either way)
- Bubba - Can't Saw
- Freddy - Can't place Dream items or TP, Dream world unchanged
- Pig - Can't place headtrap or crouch (which in turn disables rush)
- Clown - Can't reload, swap, or throw bottles, existing clouds remain
- Spirit - Can't Phase
- Legion - Can't enter Frenzy, if already in Frenzy, can't end early except by hitting/double hitting a Survivor or running out of time (also similar with Huntress, might still allow or disable Frenzied vaults over pallets)
- Plague - Can't Puke or grab from pools
- Ghosty - Can't enter power (swinging/stuns ends power, so you can't be in power after a tunnel Endurance hit/DS pickup)
- Demo - Can't Shred or Portal (place or enter)
- Oni - Can't absorb orbs, or enter power, if in power, can't Dash, might still be able to charge M1 or fully disable M1 in power
- Slinger - Can't reload or aim
- Pyramid Head - Can't shadow realm or use power, existing barbwire remains
- Blight - Can't rush
- Twins - Not sure how the remake is going to work - TBD (Assuming current version, can't swap to or recall Victor, if hitting as Victor against Endurance, can't swap back or ready Pounce, probably hurts the most to tunnel (as Victor), might be able to search lockers or not as Victor)
- Trickster - Can't Throw Knives (RMB, or enter Final Event), existing Final Event continues
- Nemmy - Can't raise tentacle
- Pinhead - Can't use power, TP, or pick up box, existing chain hunt remains, pickup box on down likely would still occur, but might not
- Artist - Can't release existing or set crows, existing swarms continue (both on map, and on Survs)
- Onion Ring - Can't Phase, which also means can't TP
- Dredge - Can't Leave shell, which also means can't TP back to shell or to locker, Nightfall works as normal
- Wesker - Can't Dash, existing Infection continues as normal
- Knight - Can't set new guards, existing guards remain
- SM - Can't check radar, set new Drones, or Recall existing, existing Drones remain (arguably remains the strongest post tunnel)
- Singularity - Can't TP, set new Biopods, or check Cams, existing infections remain
- Xeno - Can't Tail or enter tunnels, can still be burnt out of power
- Chucky - Can't enter or exit Hidey-Ho, and can't use Slice and Dice. M1s during Hidey-Ho to hit Endurance would leave you in power with the remaining time (minus the swing's reduction), Scamper may or may not work like Legion and Huntress, depends on coding.
- Unknown - Can't TP or RPG, existing clones and normal clone spawning remains.
So disabling the power button works largely as one would expect with 5 exceptions. Legion/Huntress/Chucky/Victor might still be able to spacebar to vault/scamper/reload/Victor search, or not, depending on how they are coded, but are fine regardless. Oni might be able to charge M1, or disable M1 entirely in power, but since you would have to hit Endurance to remain in power, it still disables the major threat of dashing. Twins with current Victor would be the major 'feels bad' if you hit anti-tunnel Endurance. This would fully disable your ability to play the game beyond where Victor is. Given that the Killer would know this risk, they could simply not risk Victor pouncing/Oni Dashing into charged M1 late near hooks (and 'shoulder checking' for collision before pouncing a questionable target). 2 exceptions can (potentially) fully disable a Killer's lethality (for the proposed 5s/gen remaining), but since it was a choice they made, it can only be done through self-victimization.
@Nebula said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3691296#Comment_3691296
May I ask why solving tunneling is not something on the roadmap? I know that the DS buff will help alleviate this, but I mean an actual core gameplay mechanic to solving this issue that ruins so many people''s experiences with this game. I have a buddy who really wants to get into this game to play with my friend and I, but can't get over the fact that he spends over half his time playing the game in spectator mode due to people "finding the weak link and getting them out early".
This game doesn't have a ranked or competitive mode, MMR is hidden, Prestige doesn't matter in equation to player skill, why would the number one priority not be to provide a more enjoyable player experience to both sides? Even if the answer is too much work, why make perks like DS and OTR not general perks? Why take away things like BBQ giving double bloodpoints when that was a great incentive not to tunnel? Why make conscious decisions to elevate a playstyle that is not seen as remotely fun and is also one of the easiest things to do in the game with such great payoff?
If MMR is required, that means we only have Ranked. Customs are customs so you could claim they are Unranked, but matchmade gameplay isn't Ranked/Unranked, it's exclusively Ranked.
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Copied from my other post in another thread of this same suggestion
The problem here is this could still encourage tunneling. If Surv A is
on hook and Surv B goes down either immediately before or after A is
unhooked, that doesn't mean magically Surv A commited a CA or started
progressing the game again. Also I could just hit Surv C as they unhook
Surv A (to injure), then down C after unhook, and now I have a tunnel
free card to go after Surv A and leave Surv C slugged. Think about
basement, I injure the rescuer on the way down, slug them on their way
back up, and now the OG basement Surv is tunnelable.
That's why CA's are on an individual Survivor basis. I may have downed
two other people crossmap, but the original Survivor still just got off
hook mere seconds ago. It is important to view the match from both
sides, regardless of which side you are currently playing, as it will
give greater insight into your opponent's decisions and perspective.
(Link) -
@Lost_Boy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3691265#Comment_3691265
I would probably say working with the opposite team to gain an advantage would cover it tbh.
The advantage is you actually don't have to play the game in order farm BP. The most efficient way is collaboration with the opposite side.
I honestly don't care if people want to do this if it's something that won't end up penalising the community i.e they decide to remove bonus BP because people are abusing it.
To be fair meta level 'advantages' aren't exactly something that should be brought into the equation. Should I get banned for doing something funny in front of the Killer because they might like me over the others and give me hatch? Maybe I flubbed a pallet save and stood still for 2 seconds, that is an 'advantage'. Should I be able to report my teammates for predropping pallets and creating a deadzone? They worked with the Killer to provide the Killer with an advantage (even though they may have been just trying to survive). Is giving hatch/gate in and of itself 'MMR fixing' and thus working with the opposite team for a meta advantage? The concept of an 'advantage' is too poorly defined for me to be willing to report anyone that isn't obviously griefing.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3691489#Comment_3691489
The problem is that there are still things that survivors can do to "progress" the game while not being tunneled and still get to keep their DS. The big one right now is they can do pallet saves, and flashlight saves.
The best solution is to:
- Buff DS back to 5 seconds, hell i'll even say buff it to like 7 seconds, why not
- Add in: "Deactivates if another survivor enters the dying state"
Problem solved.
The problem here is this could still encourage tunneling. If Surv A is on hook and Surv B goes down either immediately before or after A is unhooked, that doesn't mean magically Surv A commited a CA or started progressing the game again. Also I could just hit Surv C as they unhook Surv A (to injure), then down C after unhook, and now I have a tunnel free card to go after Surv A and leave Surv C slugged. Think about basement, I injure the rescuer on the way down, slug them on their way back up, and now the OG basement Surv is tunnelable.
That's why CA's are on an individual Survivor basis. I may have downed two other people crossmap, but the original Survivor still just got off hook mere seconds ago. It is important to view the match from both sides, regardless of which side you are currently playing, as it will give greater insight into your opponent's decisions and perspective. -
@SilverCrane4643 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3690866#Comment_3690866
Man, yuo have to understand that the world (espeially dbd) is not blak and white. Are they all bugs/unintended mechanics? Yes. Should we treat them the same way? Absolutely not.
This is what rub me wrong, "it is bug, fix this", "the devs said it is bug, no disussion". These people are close minded and can't think critically. There are differences between breaking bug and "techs". A breaking bug are issue in a game where a player gains advantage, but without allowing the counter part to do something. One example was the recent bug where you can inside a locker without being grabbed. What does this bug bring to the game? Nothing, the opposite side doesn't have an interaction.
Now… a tech is also a bug, but it is used only in specific situation and it requires a specific movemenet or action to do it. Sounds like what you do with a breaking bug, right? Well yes… but it brings an intercation between both sides and it is extra challenging to do it in chase. If you fail it, you lose time, but if you do it correctly then you are skilled since you did that specific action during a chase.
You as a surv if you see the Blight doing an hug tech, you can leave the loop (if possible), you can go around, you can crouch tech… When you see an Oni preparing for a flick, you can avoid it by reacting in time (with a medium size loop), you can go more to the side so he can't reach you, you can do a corner tech… You see what I mean? It creates a complex interaction between killer and surv, which makes the game more fun and interesting at high levels.
When there is a standard understanding of how a power functions, and a bug distorts this norm, the bug provides an advantage for the person abusing it. When I'm told "just leave a bugtech Blight loop", they proceed to bounce off of something behind me and get the hit on the subsequent rush for free. When an Oni flicks around a corner, they can hit when the power isn't supposed to be able to damage. The counter is to hide in the wedge of the attack range, but flicks bypass the intended counterplay. (See mediocre MS paint drawing for reference).
These bug exploits delete fair counterplay. That is my issue with them. It doesn't matter how many backflips someone has to do IRL to unlock this magical power, it still is unfair for the opposition. If the powers were designed around their use, then maybe Oni wouldn't 1-hit down on flicks and get a new backhand animation, or Wesker would have a longer CD post-throw/slam or Deep Wound injured targets and down Deep Wounded targets, or Blight would have a longer Fatigue/token recovery time.
When there is a limit to a power, that means there is counterplay to a power. When there is a bug to abuse in order to bypass any of these limitations, then counterplay is deleted.
I don't see any fun in having my options being limited by bugs, but I can understand the schadenfreude of denying an opponent counterplay and feeling like an unstoppable force. I don't think we should balance around bypassing the fair limitations though. If I get 100 power points, and Oni's power duration is worth 60, and the instadown 25, and the speed 15, these are all assuming the lethality has the counterplay. Adding in flicks adds (for sake of argument) 25 more points of lethality, so it should lose ~half power duration, or instadown, or something else to counterbalance it back to being fair. It would be the same if Trapper could place traps directly in front of gen spots, and it would only allow the Survivor to work the gen and magnet into the trap, while also disabling the ability to disarm the trap until the gen is completed. -
@Mooks said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3690859#Comment_3690859
you definitely misunderstood, I didn’t mean that the skillceiling is higher on M&K because it’s harder to learn, I say that while it’s harder to learn it’s also better to control in general.
It’s not only because of stick sensitivity. But yeah this is part of the problem. But you also have response curves and deadzones, both not adjustable in-game. And even then, changing directions is better to control on M&K and controllers can’t get to the same level. There is also a problem with polling rates, which is mostly adjustable for mouses.
I also haven’t heard that people have problems with hugging walls while looping on M&K
That's fair with modern gaming response curves, but I use a wired controller and grew up with the N64 so I probably am above average suited for dealing with bad sticks. As far as hugging walls while looping on M+K, you still have to deal with 8 directional movement, so it relies on camera movement to adjust minor directional changes more than movement inputs alone. M+K must deal with 45 degree dips in terms of camera orientation to maintain parity.
Mediocre paint diagram included
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@LapisInfernalis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3690866#Comment_3690866
Well, but this is how it works, if you like it or not.
I also have bug reports which are not acknowledged here in the forum but were fixed eventually (reading patch notes helps), some were fixed by accident, some are not reproducable and some are just not bugs (like gens spawning too close, which was just bad RNG).
BTW: The invisible walls on Ormond or GoJ are a result of Sky Billy. At one point the Devs didn't want it anymore and to hinder players from going on top of structures they put in alpha (invisible) walls around all 2nd floors of all buildings. Therefore also having an impact on Demo, Oni, Twins and Wesker who will just bump.
They also stated many times that a DC penalty during a server DC is not a bug.
But the DC thread wasn't responded to as 'not a bug'/'declined' as I've seen other bug threads be responded to, and is still 'under review' ~6 months later. Regardless this part is all off-topic.
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@LapisInfernalis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3690860#Comment_3690860
I told you how it works.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3690564#Comment_3690564
I'm just not repeating it.
Why don't you write a bug report on Wesker's techs? Then you can confirm for yourself if they are actually bugs.
"… if you can dash during the frame you press M1 and not throughout the whole dash…" during the frame is my way of saying frame perfect. Sorry if that wasn't clear. That sounds like it should verify the entire dash to me, and refund failed/improper uses.
Edit: I've lost faith in reporting bugs as they don't get addressed or fixed when I do report them. See
1, 2, 3, 4, 5 -
@LapisInfernalis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3690854#Comment_3690854
You have to do frame perfect inputs that wouldn't work through normal power usage.
You don't know how hug-tech or how Wesker's power works, don't you. Watch some videos of Alranican or Crohmbs, I will not waste time explaining it to you again.
If it is so esoteric that it can't be explained, that is telling me it is a bug exploit without using that language.
Edit: Also strange to me that you ignored the 2 massive paragraphs to nitpick a minor point. -
@Mooks said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3690649#Comment_3690649
Survivor for example is better with controller, as you can use the analog sticks for movement around tiles to loop closer, although you might need to remap some buttons to deal with Pinhead's box and other Killer elements for example (to not have solve box/break chain/drop pallet be on the same button).
I don’t agree with this at all as someone who played on controller (on pc) for years and finally switched. The only thing easier/better on controller is running and looking behind/around you - everything else is way smoother on M&K. Looping may be easier to learn on controller but the skillceiling is lower than M&K, you can loop closer with M&K even if it may be harder to learn. And especially strafing and changing direction mid-chase/loop is better on M&K.
I mean to each their own, but I still would have to disagree with this. WASD only grants 8 movement directions, and full camera directions. Controller gives full movement and camera directions. I'm not sure how you can loop closer than permanently touching the wall/line to loop on controller. Personally, I don't think having to put in more effort for the same results in terms of controls is an actual greater skill ceiling. That would be like if I randomly mapped every key on my keyboard, and saying my learning and execution of this random map could give me an even greater skill ceiling than base controls. Maybe I misunderstand your point here though. Strafing/changing direction are only an issue for controllers if the stick sensitivity is too low (in my experience).
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@LapisInfernalis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3690635#Comment_3690635
If you thought that I don't report the blatant (and even subtle) cheaters, you are wrong.
I have 7k hrs and 5.5 years of experience in this game and I dare say I have quite a good (although not perfect) intuition regarding what are game mechanics and what are cheats. I know what Coconut video you are talking about. And those I always report with video evidence.
But I ask you again: Why should I report a Sky Wesker for example? The pleyer only uses the mechanics and physics which are in the game and not some cheats (same as sky bully back in the day). Maybe you should spend some time watching advanced plays of different killers to understand what they do. So you know what to actually report and what not.
(Edit: example: if you blind a legion during a pallet vault, the killer can instantly M1 you without cooldown. When I saw this fist after 4k hrs I thought it was a cheater but it turned out to be a mechanic that was not widely known. The vaulting animation cancels the stun animation so the killer is able to instantly hit someone. I would have reported that killer without any reason if I didn't check it up.)
But if you want to open the game and be greeted with a temp ban massege one day, go ahead. I will not stop you. Some people have to learn the hard way.
And this is all I will say for that matter.
"… good intuition regarding what are game mechanics and what are cheats." That wasn't my point, my point was bugs. To specifically avoid calling out bugs seems bizarre, given that was my primary point of that section. However with the Legion example I can see why it was avoided. I can understand not wanting to risk a false report, and being humble and allowing for the possibility of it being a lack of knowledge. I trust my understanding when I can go into a custom match and replicate a standard result however.
I already gave you the reason to report in my prior replies, but if you want a shorter version then how about "whenever you feel it necessary". Below bracketed paragraph only necessary if you want greater detail as to my personal 'feel it necessary'.
{
I don't feel the need to report someone for 'harassment' in the end-game chat, even if they try to levy racial epitaphs around the censor against me, because it doesn't impact my experience. If someone else is the victim of those racial insults and they ask for them to be reported, I do it to help them, but I take no offense when it is directed at me. My tolerance for harassment when it comes to reports is near infinite, so I don't report people when I am the victim. My tolerance for abusing bugs irritates me to no end, and people falsely justifying their usage use the same logic as software cheaters for their conclusion. As such, I report bug abuse whenever I have enough evidence to justify it, and sometimes as a 'suspected cheater, use this report only as evidence if multiple other matches report them as well'. There was a match where I had a Meg pick herself up and reach a gate on the opposite side of the map without UB/self-pickup perks (or an ally to pick her up [even with a boon], as well as not leaving scratch marks [and not having scratch mark hiding perks]), but I had no video evidence (because I only start recording after the first blatant cheat/bug exploit), so I gave (roughly) the above reasoning in the report.
}
I thought I also mentioned that bugs not granting an advantage are not something I report for, only when it gives an advantage or ruins someone else's experience. I don't know if Sky Wesker is referring to Space Billy equivalent, where you gain no advantage, or being able to preserve momentum off of a high spot. Sliding off of a hill and maintaining the velocity as Wesker is clearly not intended (and confers and advantage) if you have to get in super specific scenarios to do it. If I can do the dash 20 times scooting to the side (from the previous starting point) a tiny bit each time, I can establish a baseline expectation, and a deviation is most likely a bug. Going back to the Legion example, it repeats the exact same way every time, so it doesn't deviate from know expectations, so it can be safe to assume it isn't a bug. Wesker doesn't share that with (most of) his 'techs' aka bug exploits. You have to do frame perfect inputs that wouldn't work through normal power usage. -
@OmegaXII said:
All survivors share a total 12 hook counts, and they won't die at all until the 9th hooks. This'll completely remove all the tunneling & camping in the game.
But at the same time, Gen Speed needs to be drastically reduces for this change, otherwise Killer will have no chance of winning at all.
What do you think?
First off I think a hybrid version would be better. Each Survivor gets 2 personal hooks (current first stage, and death), and a shared pool of 4 (current 2nd stage) hooks. That way if Surv A got hooked 8 times, they couldn't deny Survs B/C/D their unhook perks.
I think it also would need all anti-tunnel features to work on a per hook basis (current DH, DS, OTR, etc.). That way it still encourages the Killer to not get hit by the third DS and go for the unhooking Surv instead.
People worried about gen speeds as a result are essentially self-reporting to tunneling every match. If someone plays without tunneling, your MMR is balanced assuming that. If someone plays through exclusive tunneling, that is the equivalent to a Survivor running a 52 charge toolbox every match, and would have to lose to the point their MMR reaches their skill level (without crutches) once again. -
PC is better in this discussion only because you have the option to use Mouse and Keyboard or Controller, and can swap mid-match if you even want to. You even get the advantages of console when using controllers.
Survivor for example is better with controller, as you can use the analog sticks for movement around tiles to loop closer, although you might need to remap some buttons to deal with Pinhead's box and other Killer elements for example (to not have solve box/break chain/drop pallet be on the same button).
Killer (imo) is better as Mouse and Keyboard, because you can snap look around your surroundings, and gather info quickly. You might not be able to scan the horizon on a Floods of Rage proc mid-chase as easily on Controller, but M+K allows you that instant look and return to chase without disturbing your pathing too much. You can also dodge flashlights much easier when the Survivor starts late or they try to multi-blind at the same time around a corner. -
@Marioneo said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pqMjGedQt8
in the video provided Otz talks about why buffing the duration of Ds won't solve tunneling especially against meta killers and instead says it should be made a common perk not locked behind a paywall for new players and begiven an additional effect that disables a killers power for 30-40 seconds so it can affect Nurses and blights.
Thoughts?
I don't think the argument that "If we have a good perk for anti-tunnel then we can't add good basegame anti-tunnel" stands. One CA drops all anti-tunnel effects, and a CA is the only way to progress the game, so its fine. Any time a Killer wants to chase a Survivor, they can chase (in normal situations) 75% of the lobby with impunity, or can fake out the last and try to bait out a CA before tunneling. It doesn't matter if they give DS unlimited uses, or give a better DS that gives Survivors a Shotgun to stun the Killer for 15s, because a single CA deletes all of that. By not tunneling, I can deny the Survivors DS+OTR, so I get to play against 8 perks instead of 16.
That also means you can still 'toggle-tunnel' (or hook Surv A/B/A/B/A/B/C/D) without any issue. Now to be fair, I only consider it 'full-on' tunneling when a Survivor hasn't done a CA post-hook before getting hooked again. If a far superior Killer is winning to the extreme that they have 2 or 3 Survivors with anti-tunnel effects active, I think they are winning enough to chase the rescuer of any given Survivor instead. -
@SilverCrane4643 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3690252#Comment_3690252
Enjoy wasting your time then
Thanks, will do (when infractions meet my standards of a report aka prove intent). You enjoy your time as well!
Comp is done in customs, thus they aren't subject to the game rules listed previously, and also found under the Information Center tab. So this point is irrelevant.
It may be the case that people won't be banned, but would is different from should.
I don't view this as black and white as you, although I can see how my phrasing may have invoked such a reaction. Specifically my use of 'cheater'. To redefine for clarity, I am using 'cheater' as a short hand for "someone who has broken game rules to the level that could justify a report and/or ban." Using full on cheating software to teleport reaches this standard, as does using the game itself and twisting its arm to work in unintended ways also meets this standard. Kind of like how cheating on a test by giving another test participant answers is still cheating, even if you gained nothing from it. The colloquial 'cheating' would be only referring to raising your score, but the test's rules expands the definition to raising anyone's score. This too applies to the game rules and my usage of 'cheating'.
If you break the rules, you 'cheated'. Now there are minor rules like working with Killer that could be on paper true, but in practice were just people meming. If someone flubs a pallet save, and stays still in disappointment, this could, under the strictest of definitions, be considered working with Killer. In an extreme mind, you could twist that "oops I screwed up, let's make a joke of my failure" into "MWUHAHAHA now the Killer will think I am bad and will go easy on me, Turbo-Tunnel my teammates MWUHAHAHA".
For me, the line of breaking the rules is proving intent. There are so many different bugs in any given patch, that I need to know someone intentionally exploited a bug for their benefit in order to report them. I usually go for a rule of 3 (times exploiting the bug), or a self-report in endgame chat. If they say something like "yeah that was weird, I don't know what was going on", then even if I have the 27 times recorded, I might let that slide, but otherwise they broke the rules and I would report them.@LapisInfernalis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3690252#Comment_3690252
Are you trolling now or don't you get what my problem is with your arguments?
I repeat to make myself clear:
Anything the Devs did not classify as a bug isn't one and therefore not an exploit. None of Wesker's techs have been classified as such. And no, his hug-tech works completely different from Blight's and therefore is not a bug. All of his techs are based on the server confirming if you can dash during the frame you press M1 and not throughout the whole dash.
So do yourself a favor and stop reporting Wesker players (or anyone) who just play the game. Unless you want to end up with a ban for false reporting yourself.
I was being flippant with my (one-line) reply as you appeared to discard the game rules (and be equally flippant with my multi paragraph points) when it seeks your whim, but no, I'm not trolling with my major points. It stays on point with my message though, if oversimplified to an extreme.
I truly don't understand your point as I stated in the previous post. If a Survivor starts turbospeeding cross-map during the locker exit animation (only), but the devs didn't expressly state in an in-game announcement that its a bug, that doesn't magically mean it isn't a bug, especially if they stated on the forums it was a bug. Having sufficient hours in this game (and others) means that people have a decent sense of when something is lag, a bug, or something else.
Calling some things a tech when any individual thinks its cool doesn't negate its buggy nature. Also the DBD community at large is bad for calling everything a tech. "Dumb tech, Shift tech, Bloodlust tech, placed a trap as Trapper tech", I find people calling this, that, and everything a 'tech' a joke. It feels like they know the game isn't as serious as they wish it to be, and want to artificially inflate its importance by describing things as far more glorious than they actually are.
I do find it funny that full blown cheating software users and 'tech users' (specifically bug exploiters) resort to the exact same argumentation when called out. "Don't report, its a waste of yours and/or the devs time."* (Although to be fair full on software cheaters also threaten to make a new account.) To me that shows a certain level of known guilt that the person knows what they are doing is wrong, or is bare minimum against the rules, and doesn't want to face punishment for breaking those known rules.
*(I would link a CoconutRTS video here showing a software cheater saying essentially this, but to play it safe with the forum rules regarding cheating, that could be twisted by bad actors into a false claim of 'advertising cheats'.)
I will continue reporting people who break the rules in a way that ruins the gameplay experience for others, and I find it chilling and/or telling that you would want anyone to stop doing that. -
I think in general, rummaging should be allowed infinite times (and a basekit option), but it doubles the time to do each time like Freddy ally wakeups. Appraisal's Token limit can be shifted to rummages that increase your held item's rarity tier. Rummaging basekit with an item held can instead 'reload' your item like Built to Last, but takes .25s-1s per charge from the first rummage.
Another possibility is 'kicking' a chest to reroll the item. Once you reach halfway on the chest, the item you will get is revealed. You can press a button (like planting a blastmine/wiretap) to kick the chest when it is above 50% to subtract 50% progress, and reroll the item. Ace in the Hole or a different item perk can remove or reduce this penalty, so it maybe removes 10% progress on the reroll instead.
Base chests currently take too long for not enough value. Opening a chest to find a Yellow Toolbox costs ~10s and give you back ~6.66s. Finding a Yellow Medkit and self-healing also takes the same time and saves you ~8s from getting healed by an ally. Arguably Chests would be fair at 5s, especially since you still have to walk out of your way to use them, and if you stacked Chest perks you sacrificed perks that could have actually been useful instead.@CrypticGirl said:
Add more chests by default. Right now there isn't even enough to go around for each Survivor. And remove broken keys from the item pool.
I think Broken Keys would be fine if they basekitted 24m Survivor Aura read on Keys. Any existing Surv aura read can just increase the range by number it currently provides instead.
@FuzzyKoala said:
There's already more than 1 chest per survivor, though. I think it might get too OP if all survivors could bring in an item, plus find 2 more each in the trial.
By default only 3 chests spawn (.75/Surv). Survivor Offerings can increase this number, as well as Hoarder Killer perk.
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@LapisInfernalis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3689868#Comment_3689868
Now I know who will probably report me for just having fun with Wesker. Thanks a lot.
No problem, don't cheat and you'll be fine!
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I think the perk is fine as is, but if we would make changes to promote spreading pressure, it could have 3 levels of effectiveness.
- You have more hooks than any Survivor: Current version.
- You are tied for hooks with least hooked Survivor: Lingers 5-15s after vault and/or chase then goes on 30s cooldown.
- You have less hooks than all Survivors: Ends on vault and/or chase then goes on 30s cooldown.
They could name this mechanic and apply it across multiple perks, so that way tunneled Survivors get full perks, but untunneled Survivors get lesser versions. The opposite could also apply for healing perks, which would heal tunneled Survivors at accelerated rates, and unhooked Survivors at lessened rates.