mizark3
mizark3
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3676517#Comment_3676517
Ah, so you're saying peek optimal gameplay with no foolishness or mistakes is normal gameplay. Okay, well, I'm going to have to disagree with you here, but I suppose that's one point of view. For me, normal gameplay absolutely includes sometimes doing suboptimal plays, for example your situation where you said kicking a gen when someone isn't on hook is foolish. I still say that's normal gameplay because BHVR specifically said that camping 3 gens from the beginning of the match without progressing the objective with the intent on dragging out the match as long as possible is what is NOT normal gameplay. That means normal gameplay would be trying to play with the intent on advancing the objective (without cheating, of course).
If playing perfectly with no mistakes or foolishness is your "normal gameplay", you should start streaming. You'd be famous overnight.
Do you not understand that there is nuance here? There is a difference between "make no mistakes" and "mistakes should be punishable". If you want to claim that your opponents are all inhuman machines that make no mistakes, then yeah I guess your point would be valid. At the same time shouldn't you be happy you got to the highest MMR and proved yourself to be in the top echelon? I think everyone is human, capable of error, and errors can be capitalized on by an intelligent opposition. That means you only need to make fewer mistakes than your enemies, kinda like the "I don't need to outrun the bear, I only need to outrun you" joke. That's how I won most of my matches, by forcing a critical decision, and my enemies choosing... poorly. I never claimed I didn't lose, just that my losses as Killer were near strictly under my control. If I really wanted to improve I would record and watch over every loss, but I don't care that much.
You end your paragraph agreeing with me strangely enough. "That means normal gameplay would be trying to play with the intent on advancing the objective (without cheating, of course)." Killing Survivors is the Killer's objective, doing gens is the Survivor's. In most scenarios, if a Killer ever prioritizes a basic gen kick over a known chase, they aren't advancing their goal, they are trying to slow down the Survivor's. Gen kicks are almost always worse than chasing, so I always encourage pressure/chase (even if it is setup Pressure like Blood Orb collection or 99'd stalks). Its fine to make mistakes, as people learn more from their failures than their successes, but bashing my head on a wall and refusing to use a more effective tool like a Sledgehammer doesn't mean the wall's HP should be nerfed.
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Both sides have about 10 Great perks, 20 Good but usually inferior versions of the previous category, 30 extremely niche or inferior versions of the previous category, and the remainder being meme/garbage perks.
Don't pretend Survivors are eating fat and happy with Poised, just as no one should pretend Killers are eating fat and happy with Bloodhound.
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@Archael said:
I was thinking about this perk.
It makes all gens needing 10 charges less, which means that every regression perk is weaker on those gens, and getting it work after being kicked, also needs less work, since 5% from 80s is less than 5% from 90s. Its not much, but this accumulate. Especialy that nothing can remove progress you made on gens by invocation.
And yes, you are wasting time, because you spend 120s to made 50s progress so you wasted 70s, right. Right. But only on inefficient killers who do not kick gens.
More efficient killers who regress gens will actually make this perk more worthwile.
Add there the fact that toolboxes are also more efficient. To get gen to 10% you had to spend 9 charges of your toolbox, with invocation, its 8, so you saved 1 charge of your toolbox, for every 10% of a gen done to speed up process even more.
Also, perks like no mither is not a meme anymore since it helps much in this case.
All Regression weaker - Do you know how little this affects? PR 25% max goes from 22.5s to 20s, and a gen kick 5% max goes from 4.5s to 4s. So even assuming the broken condition wasn't permanently applied, a Killer would need 28 PR procs, or 140 gen kicks to break even. The Killer would need to use PR 7 times as often as they are currently allowed to for this to merely break even.
Toolboxes more efficient - I think you have the same misunderstanding I once had with how Toolboxes work. The charges on Toolboxes directly translate to charges on the gen. That means if you have a 90 charge Toolbox (not possible but lets pretend), and you started a (normal) gen with it, you would finish the gen at the exact same time the Toolbox ran out of charges. The Toolbox speed boost is how fast you burn up the item's charges. That means a 52 Charge Commodious Toolbox puts 52 gen charges in 34.66 real time seconds, and finished that 90 charge gen in 72.66s, or saves 17.33s in total. A BNP/Invocation would reduce the charges by 10, and the total gen time by 10s, still only saving the maximum 17.33s by using the best Toolbox in the game (for gens).
I'm sorry calling No Mither no longer a meme would be like saying Slippery Meat is the only way to play soloq. They are all bad and increase your chance of losing.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3676338#Comment_3676338
Your definition of normal gameplay is skewed though. You're saying kicking gens without perks is abnormal. That pretty much makes your definition of what is normal absolutely voided out. It's literally a game mechanic for any killer to participate in. That's like saying kicking pallets is abnormal when there are survivors to chase - it's a key basekit mechanic of the game, and they even bumped it to 5% to try (but failed) to make it more relevant for killers to use.
I'm not saying kicking gens without perks is abnormal, I'm saying it is foolish (without someone on hook). I shouldn't expect Kobes to save every Survivor's chance of victory, just as reckless gen kicks shouldn't save every Killer's chance of victory. Survivors as a team can lose because a singular teammate is weaker than the Killer. When the Killer is the weakest player in the match, it should track that they should lose from their mistakes. Making poor decisions consistently, makes someone a weaker player, and they should continue if they are having fun, or stop making those mistakes if they wish to win/improve.
It would be more accurate to describe my position on normal gameplay as: "the Killer should always seek to provide pressure on the Survivors", and kicking gens (without a hooked Surv or perk value) to give a visible Survivor 12 extra seconds in chase is never providing that pressure. Some Killers operate on investments, so what may seem to not be short term pressure may still be long term pressure (hit and run, Ghosty 99's, gathering their power's resource, etc.). (Looking back at the quote on the patch notes, they said "This can lead to very long games and frustration." [bold mine], so the part you take issue with was likely to target [Survivor] frustration as well.)
I never argued against kicking pallets, and if anything, my statements have been in favor of it as a means to whittle down the Survivor's resources for victory. At the same time, if I am kicking an edge map pallet from the outside, I am making a mistake as Killer. I should instead kick from the inside of the map, to lessen the distance the Survivor gets, as well as limit their options.
As far as the 2.5->5%, I think they did that to encourage more healthy usage of the now limited resource of gen kicks. As I see it, they probably felt 16 2.5% gen kicks max on a single gen was happening, so they halved the number and doubled the regression to maintain parity. This feels like BHVR is actually trying to train Killers to be more effective at Killing, and getting spat in the face for it.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3674871#Comment_3674871
You cant be serious. Kicking a gen isn't trying to win by attrition. You can't ask killers to not kick gens. It's literally a game mechanic, and if killers don't kick them, those gens get done even faster than they already are. Gens fly.
Kicking a gen isn't trying to win by attrition, but kicking a gen while an unhooked and chaseable Survivor's location is known most certainly is. Kicking a gen when there is no perk value to be gained is trying to win by attrition. Kicking a gen while no one is on hook is trying to win by attrition. Its fine to win through attrition, but it should be done through offense (pallets) not defense (meaningless gen kicks).
What I am saying is taking the mathematically inferior option shouldn't help the player, and should harm them. Attempting hook Kobes is also an option, and I'm not asking Survivors to not attempt Kobes, but I do think Survivors attempting Kobes should lose because they forced themselves into 2nd stage. It is the same foolish behavior done by Survivors (Kobes) and Killers (wasted kicks), and when that side does it, they should lose or at least hurt their chances of winning.
@Skillfulstone said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3675171#Comment_3675171
First of all, my bad my "no one" was not designating you sorry about the misunderstanding XD, I was literally saying that us (people that dislike how the current iteration of the Anti-3-gen system affects gameplay) are not having an issue with it purely because of the fact that Killers might lose because of it, we are having an issue with it because it affects normal gameplay for weaker/M1 Killers far more than the powerhouses even without the intent to create an endless stalemate.
Presence and pressure is good and all, and it's true that if a Survivor is constantly on hook then gens slow down (unless the Survivors would rather complete 1-2 gens before going for a save, depending on perks/items it's easily doable depending on how the game is going) but weaker/M1 Killers can't apply that kind of map-wide pressure reliably, especially if the Survivors are good. If they turn the game into a 3v1 early then sure though.
Again, if the regression limit was meant as a tool then the devs would have marketed it as such. However it was specifically said that it was made to stop endless 3-gen stalemates without affecting normal gameplay. The mechanic as it is now shifts the meta, playstyles, and makes certain non-regression perks just as affected by the mechanic as regression perks, so it is doing way more than it should.
In the video, the Knight kicks the gen because it's around 50% and (from his POV) it's somehow getting out-repaired every time he comes back. What Killer in their right mind would go to the other side of the map if there's not only a vital gen at dangerously high progress but they also know there's a Survivor nearby that keeps stopping the gen from regressing & making a bit of progress everytime they turn around and will finish it given the chance? What's supposed to be the play here? The Knight had Nowhere To Hide (which offers no slowdown if a chase can't be started thanks to its effect) but Distortion voided it which meant he was still between a rock and a hard place. He wasn't playing Attrition Knight (somebody was hooked during that whole debacle, also the video was far too short to be able to say that was the situation) he was defending a central gen, arguably the most important gen in R.P.D. which shouldn't be punished further. The Killer's "punishement" is already his lack of map pressure due to being stuck defending the middle gen. Why should Killers be forced to concede a gen if Survivors are persistent and good enough? If it's in endgame then sure (games shouldn't be endless anyway) but it shouldn't be a thing to keep in mind at all times.
How does a kick limit not indirectly nerfs non-regression kick perks greatly? They might give value but offer no extra slowdown on their own, if the effect fails to offer value (NTW doesn't reveal anyone, Trail of Torment gets canceled before a surprise attack can be used, the Killer fails to capitalize on Dragon's Grip effect etc.) then it's a wasted kick out of 8.
I don't care about endless games being gone, it's a good and healthy thing, all we're saying is that it should only be a concern lategame in order to not affect normal gameplay.
Side-note: the exploit that Survivors could use to forever deny kicks was patched a while ago, now the 5% needed to stop regression is a fixed value that doesn't reset if Survivors let go (this was due to people being able to have near-infinite Wiretap and deny Pop, I think Ayrun made a video on it).
P1: Yeah no prob, I was being a bit jokey to diffuse the tension.
P2: While normally I am not a fan of tunneling, I am a fan of meeting sweat with sweat. If the Survivors 'genb4fren', or prioritize gens before altruism (heals and unhooks), then I very much think Killers should sweat back and tunnel the person the Survivors killed by not unhooking in 1st stage. I only don't like how the victim of the countersweat isn't the perpetrator of the sweat, but you gotta do what you gotta do. As far as 'reliably applying pressure' I don't quite agree with, but that depends on the matchmaking more than anything. If I run into the clock squad when I bring the build for casual SWF or serious soloq, I'm not gunna have a good time. Since the game keeps pushing people to sweat due to MMR, that is what I blame for M1/weaker Killers from not being able to enjoy the game. I had far more enjoyment 2-hook tangoing at red ranks (back during rank based matchmaking), than I ever did after MMR.
P3: I don't necessarily think the devs thought of the regression limit as a tool, but I do think the players should. It helps the player prioritize better decision making IMO. That's why I keep making the gen kick/pallet comparison, as both are the respective sides' limited resource, and the other side can weaponize that limit against them. A foolish Surv will predrop 12 pallets and screw over their team, just as a foolish Killer can kick every non-regressing gen. The main difference is the Killer is responsible for the mistake with wasted regression, or only 25% of the Survivor team is with wasted pallets.
P4: In the Knight example the 1st event isn't shown, but likely below half since no hooks for strong regression was used. The 2nd event is at about 33% with no hooks. The 3rd is about 45%, and still under 50%. This 3rd event is the only one I can defend, as someone was on hook, and it was high enough to justify a minion kick. Personally I think he should have patrolled the guy out in the hall, as it would provide the same gen prevention, without contributing to his regression limit. Plus he wasted the Assassin on that, as opposed to the Jailor or big boy. The 4th is in pursuit of the Survivors (and none on hook), and like I said before, the gen kick gave the Survs 12s of extra chase time because of that. The Knight is too busy playing defense when he should be playing offense. Like I said in the above reply's 2nd paragraph, he is punished for making the mathematically inferior play. Just like a Survivor would for attempting Kobes. Should a Survivor just get 3 Kobes without sacrificing 20s of hook time per attempt? Its the same overarching concept, of taking a bad option, and being punished for it. Also the key thing here is that the Killer is attempting to pre-defend the 3 gen by kicking 1 gen that much. That is attrition Knight. That is the system working as intended.
P5: I don't doubt the regression limit nerfs gen kick perks indirectly, and for Eruption I could be persuaded for the proc to not count towards the limit as the kick already did it. The issue is that it forces the Killer to use their brain in actually assessing the value of what they stand to gain. I love Trail of Torment on Myers, because no one expects the T3 without a TR. But if I don't know where the Survivors are, then I shouldn't waste a kick in the first place, with or without the regression limit in place. Because of the regression limit, smart Killers will learn quicker and not take the inferior option as much.
P6: That's the thing, I don't think the argument stands that it does affect normal gameplay. I haven't had it happen to me once as Killer, but I play a more offensive and heavy stalk styled Ghosty. I haven't played my favorite skillcheck Freddy build in a while, but I'm sure that would actually be impacted by the change. Same with slowdown on my Clown (only Pop and/or PR), Myers (only Thana/Penti/Plaything), Legion (Thana and/or PR), and other M1 Killers I like playing. I refuse to kick if I don't have a perk or a Surv on hook, and that means I am safe. I think it is merely a matter of unlearning old unhelpful behaviors.
Side-note: Ahh, I never tried it myself and didn't see it in the patch notes, but I didn't look too deep either.
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@PotatoPotahto said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3675242#Comment_3675242
Run DS and OTR. DS is only as good as you are, you use it after you got downed in a deadzone you get those 6 meters, you use it after you got downed in Garden of Joy main building the killer loses the game for tunneling you.
OTR might be countered by the killer hitting you off the hook but that doesn't happen as often as OTR deniers claim.
You might not escape anyway but with those perks you have good chances your team gets a 3 man escape which should be enough.
I don't think people should be required to run 2 perks, 1 of which is paid DLC only, in order to not hate their existence.
To be clear when I say 'hit off hook' I don't mean the milisecond of coming off hook, I mean anytime where Basekit BT would still be in effect. That is my main problem, is that anti-tunnel Endurance shouldn't Deep Wound players, and players with anti-tunnel Endurance shouldn't be able to bodyblock for teammates. Allow the Killer to walk through players while that timer is ticking down, have Endurance not hinder you, and I'd say OTR is fine.
Also like I said previously, how can I forcefully equip perks on my teammates? That is the largest problem, is that when my teammates are weaker than me, and I can't put DS as all 4 of their perk slots so the other 2 Survs and I can actually play the game.
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@Sava18 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3675323#Comment_3675323
-While old decisive was good, new dh/ds/otr is just a better anti tunnel albeit way more perk slots to use. Also far less accessible.
-IW deserved everything it got coming to it, I'd rather god validation dh to come back than old iw. The perk fabricated 50/50s the instant LoS was broke. If it got either the exhaustion(on half the survivors in the game) or 100% back it'd be hard meta yet again.
-Yeah. Gen kick meta was a plague still affecting killers brains to this day.
P1: Obviously that's the case. But shifting the meta after 6 years is better than trying to meaninglessly buff up perks that are so poor design they could never be anything but op or trash is better than not.
P2: I agree but I think pop with any other useful gen regression makes it too strong. Also it involves kicking a gen so it's on my hit list.
P3: BHVR made bad perk designs with mft and ALL boons. They simply don't have enough creativity/insight to change them appropriately. I actively abused mft and it was busted busted. Boons have no real counter play when used properly, the killer is typically left with no options when they are used right.
P4: I've said a lot of this in other posts or maybe even in this post. Yeah, tomes actively encourage survivors to throw.
If people don't want to play then don't play. 0 point in queueing up to leave 30 seconds in.
-Why should I need 3 perks to just play the game, that's just ridiculous. Also OTR is still denied by hitting off hook.
-Why complain about IW and then not complain about OTR? Personally I think IW was overrated, but I do have hearing damage so my gameplay is less reliant on hearing to be fair.
P1: Agree to disagree. Fixing what isn't broke is foolish IMO. Especially since now tunneling is more painful than it ever has been.
P2: I think stacking slowdown is the main problem. I would give perks 'classes', and if you can unlock bonus effects if you don't run more than 1 per 'class'. Something like perks are 25% more effective for not stacking a 'class'.
P3: The only flaw I think boons had were high floor/too far out of the way totems. As long as 1 totem could be broken basekit for Killer, I think that would fix that outlier problem. I think current CoH is fair, as well as the rest of them (other than Dark Theory which IMO needs a buff). I personally had little to no problem against MfT users, but I am a variety Killer+Ghosty main. Them healing helps me so I get slowdown and instadown. As Surv, every time I wasn't facing a Knight or Doctor, I felt SB would have provided my playstyle more value.
P4: I am fine with the tomes that encourage positive behaviors (heal X states, progress X gens, emblem progress), its just open throw tomes I hate.
That's the thing though, the person WANTS to play and get their heal tome/daily, but Plague denies it.
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@Sava18 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3675184#Comment_3675184
"This meta is godawful, boring, and almost zero variety,"
Haha, so pre 6.1.0? Literally the entire meta after the first year the game launched was the same.
You only contribute to the problem and everyone who thinks like you. I would have a 65% wr as survivor instead of 52% if people just tried, that's it, TRY.
Sometimes I run into good killers, playing good killers while running the meta but not more than 1/4 games(keep in mind good killer players are probably 1/50 easily and to say otherwise would undermine your own station).
So what do I expect? Survivors to play the game they queued up for. Or do we just kill the game now and always do nothing?
I will say what they do to maps is never good for the most part, that's it.
If the killer was good, survivor wouldn't be able to "take it out on them". Factually.
It seems to me you have played too much solo queue and it's skewed your perception. Survivors throw the game at least 1/2 of games by not playing well(not even optimally) just playing to win. Oh no, survivors only have a 40% win rate bare minimum when 1/4th of the are throwing every game. How sad.
I didn't play survivor until after 6.1.0 and I have mained the role since a few months after. I don't need those old perks to carry me, I need my teamates to play semi-competently and THAT"S IT.
Pre 6.1 was one of the best eras we had. A quick aside for people who forgot all the bad of 6.1(.x).
- Removed (meaningful) anti-tunnel from the game
- Nerfed Ruin/Thana/Calm Spirit/Self-Care/Iron-Will for no good reason
- Buffed OC/CoB/Eruption to the point that a monkey with a spacebar would win as Killer
The problem everyone complains about in terms of the meta being the same, is that no perks are competitive for the top slots. The default balancing decisions for both sides are to make 10 Amazing perks, 20 inferior copies of the previous group, 30 even more niche perks or inferior versions of the previous group, and the rest are so bad that by attempting to get perk value you set yourself behind more often than not. We want the bottom 90+ to be reasonable options in the first two groups, and maybe still keep some goof perks for funsies.
Adrenaline/Unbreakable/Pop/Lethal are examples of fair and useful perks. Their strength is often high, but that is matched with the cost. Knowing the exact spawn of an entire team allows me to plan out my initial stalk route as Ghosty, and it can then help my Iri Cam/Floods proc to re-update and adjust my line of attack. Adrenaline heals an entire health state, even on the ground or on hook, but it requires all the gens to be completed to get that effect. (Taking my Killer games into account, that is only 26% of matches where Adren can even proc.)
The two largest meta shifts for Survivor were from Boon: Circle of Healing and Made for This. I am glad CoH got nerfed, but it never should have been a better Self-Care to begin with. Personally I was fine with MfT as Killer, as Sprint Burst always gave Survivors more value against my playstyle. Since both meta shifts were from new Survivor top-class perks, and both got nerfed far below what people now consider usable, BHVR appears to be afraid to mess with the core they made from the onset. Looking at the top 10s recently posted, the newest Surv perk came out June 2018, and the newest Killer perk came out Nov 2021. We have nothing useful in the past 2-5 years, but at least Killer gets a tad bit more variety. 6.1 Initially came out in July 2022, so even now we are still stuck with an old Meta despite multiple 'shakeups'.
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On the topic of Survivors throwing, we have tomes to blame for that. Lets look at the 2 worst for Survivor and Killer this most recent tome. Now at first the Orange Glyph looks bad for Killer, but you can basically just read this as a 'play Nurse for no drawbacks' tome, so I'll include a third for Killer. First off take 2 protection hits, or 'give a Killer a free down/64 gen seconds of healing'. Next up we have lose chase 3 times in one match, or 'hope pre-dropped pallets are kicked'. For Killer we have... wait ... Kill 2 Obs, Sacrifice 8, hook 8, get a 3k+, hook the Obs twice, hook 3 different Survivors? All of those are progressing the win condition and not throwing at all. Once they make Survivor tomes not ludicrous throwing mechanisms, Survivors will be allowed to enjoy the game instead of raging at their teammates.
On the other end Killer variety is ludicrously low (at least in my Survivor games), and I don't blame anyone for not wanting to face the same Killer 5 times in a row (other than new Killers on release week). Also if someone brings a heal build/tome, they shouldn't be slapped in the face with Plague disabling 25% of the game. I personally don't understand why we don't have either a Killer ban or repeat prevention system yet, as every other ranked game with different characters knows you need that. (I say ranked because MMR is NOT optional, so all public play options are ranked game modes, and customs can be coordinated with those in the customs.) Personally when I sign up for a ranked game mode, I sign up for the basic QoL of being able to ban the character that counters my intended playstyle. Being denied that QoL just means the game is incomplete, or it should be unranked instead.
Hopefully this gave more insights into why people throw, don't want to play, or complain about the meta perk selection.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3675142#Comment_3675142
Highest MMR is extremely simple to get.
This seems very unlikely given what the developers themselves have stated (player distribution across MMR is shaped like a bell curve - few people on the extremes, most in the middle). And no offense to you but I reckon that they have more knowledge on the matter than either of us.
From the below sources, 1600 is the top skill bracket, where if you lose, you don't lose as much MMR. People are also dragged up into high-MMR matches when a match can't be found quick enough. Anyone within this 'drag' range is within the same matchmaking potential, and thus 'Highest-MMR'. This effectively is 1400-2100 (since they lowered the 3000 hardcap down to 2100 in October).
All of this basically means that you get funneled into higher ranked matches. A far larger group is actually found within 'highest-MMR' than reported. Since MMR is adjusted based on your opponent's MMR, those high MMR losses don't hurt your MMR as much. Even when you are at the lower bracket, you lose even less to keep you in sweatier matches.
Not only that, but the dev behind gaming MMR (an adaptation of Chess ELO), basically said modern MMR is broken. The original MMR is supposed to intentionally put you in above, below, and at skill level matches in some quantity. The stomps aren't great but forgotten fairly quickly, the times you stomp are fun and also forgettable, and the close matches are highly stressful, thus not good all the time. Modern MMR ignores the designed free wins/losses, and only aims for the high-stress 'even' matches. The insta-losses and wins are meant to be a palate cleanser for the stressful matches, but aren't used in modern gaming enough.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orkzXTuIzwUThe Skill-Based Matchmaking Rating, often abbreviated as "SBMM" or "MMR", is a hidden scoring system used to match Players together for ranked Trials in Dead by Daylight . The system has been in use since 8 September 2021 and replaced the previous matchmaking system, which had matched Players based on their Grades. The Skill-Based Matchmaking Rating uses a hidden score that is influenced by the Player's performance in ranked Trials.There is no way for Players to know their specific score. The SkA Halo 2 dev is blasting the "failure" of modern SBMM as the debate over MW3's skill-based matchmaking wages on.Finally here is another (somewhat outdated, but mostly relevant) video that also explores aspects of MMR (in its first ~4 minutes). The issue is even though they reduced the maximum MMR, that just means the same number of players in that upper range regardless, just with 2101-3000s at 2100 instead.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kCWtRRVfx0Personally I trust the dude who actually created the framework of what we call MMR more than anything else without transparency. Sadly DC rates were not shown in the last kill rates, nor was it broken down by MMR. That means I can't trust BHVR as much as I'd like to, as they hide too much information to be trustworthy.
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@PotatoPotahto said:
Start running antitunnel peks.
I'm sorry what anti-tunnel still remains? DS was deleted (in practice, as you only get ~6m of distance), and Off The Record/Borrowed Time are mutually exclusive. That means if a Killer hits off-hook anyways the perk is denied.
Plus can I equip those perks for my teammates? That is more often the problem, is my 300hr friend or (even lower hour count) soloq teammate (because matchmaking is a joke) gets tunneled and I can't do anything about it.
@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3675133#Comment_3675133
No, that's not anywhere near enough compensation. Tunneling can often be a massive game advantage, and asking killers to avoid tunnelling is a huge thing to ask. BHVR revealed that for the vast majority of the players, being solo doesn't really affect kill rate. And not stacking meta doesn't mean much to me, as all the survivor perks I complain about are largely considered non-meta.
And if your attitude is that killers don't need to tunnel, because the game is pushed towards a 60% kill rate, then the same applies to survivors. Survivors don't need to ever try to flashlight save, or hook sabo, or excessively hide, or use voice communications specifically for game advantages... because they'll be near a 40% escape rate regardless of what they do. And therefore, survivors can easily avoid doing things that killers think is unfun, because they'll "have the same escape results" regardless of what they do.
When did the standard change from "don't tunnel at 5 gens against casuals" to "don't tunnel EVER"? I read C3's point as (more or less) sweat only against sweat. The attitude of "Killer's don't need to tunnel" is derived from the hard evidence provided by the 50 matches with 73% killrate on no tunnel/no slowdown Myers.
C3 also didn't need to explicitly state "Killer" because the picture clearly shows "People". Unless it's your stance that Killer players aren't 'people', then I think Killers were already covered in the post.
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Pre-game lobby could be an issue, but putting it on the loading screen (like Mobile does) and also in the pause menu definitely should be done.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/407942/dbd-is-dying
Tunneling isn't "toxic" it is playing to win. The game doesn't define rules that say you can't tunnel, thus it is fair game.
It's also fair for me to invite my brother over only to unplug my brother's controller when playing games on the same console, the game doesn't prevent it so its fair! At the same time, my brother will punch me in the arm and say "I'm not going to keep playing with you if you keep being a jerk". People are sick of playing against the equivalent of a controller unplug, and can't choose to stop playing with jerks.
What I'm saying here is playing the game is a social experience, and choosing not to play with people is part of that experience. When people are denied the ability to avoid people and playstyles they don't like, they swap games, hence 'game dying/dead' cries. When I load up soloq matches, I don't want to face someone acting like there's a $5 subway card on the line, I just want to enjoy myself, maybe complete some tomes, and end the night with "that was fun" as my parting thoughts. I don't want to end the night contemplating uninstalling to avoid more nuisance/stress/boredom.
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Blocking is the same problem old (6.1) Eruption had with Incapacitation, except now it applies to everyone (with GE). It effectively is a 30s AFK button, and that isn't fun. I still think GE should have instead been buffed to work twice if you got all spread hooks twice.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3675104#Comment_3675104
It would be possible if they don't manually weigh the perks.
If you want to weight perks and avoid a hard meta, then you weigh the perks by an algorithm based on popularity and let the community decide, indirectly.
Whatever is meta will be weighted the heaviest, and it would prevent things like 4x S+ tier perks in one build.
Still not a perfect system, and likely too much effort to rework the entire perk system.
One possible problem with usage rates, is people can troll the system by intentionally giving false data. I can be a mad lad bringing Poised as a 4th perk when SWFing, or Bloodhound as a 4th on Blight/Nurse, and have those factors carry my victory. Alternatively more intentionally weak perks when my skill with SWF/high-tier Killers can carry me. Heck, Comp players already do this by not repeating perks, so this would impact soloq the worst in all likelihood. Plus, as we can see from the perk usage rates, Self-Care would be S-tier despite being horrible, or Windows being a soloq perk (since coordinated SWFs can say which pallets are used).
Even then, it should be balanced around allowing 4 perks (at S Tier), and more for weaker ones. If it is framed negatively, people will naturally revolt. If it is framed as a bonus for bringing weak perks, it would be better received. The perks could then be adjusted W/L based on the percentage of the build (eg. 25% at 4 or fewer perks, 20% at 5, 16.6% at 6, ~14% at 7, and so on).
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@Skillfulstone said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3674871#Comment_3674871
IT'S NOT A MATTER OF WINNING! NO ONE IS SAYING THAT THE MECHANIC WILL DOOM WEAK KILLERS TO LOSE.
If regression is a limited resource, it automatically kills any non-optimal perks! Why do you think that except for Pain Res, Pop, Grim Embrace and DMS then slowdown perks have become even more rare than before!? Why do you think tunnelling has risen significantly recently? Weaker Killers, if they want to win against decent Survivors, can't afford to dally in getting one Survivor out and can't waste limited regression events with perks giving a measly 8% or 10% (without perks/items/great skillchecks this takes less than 10 seconds to recover, even less with several Survivors). Why bring Nowhere to Hide if Survivors might be in a locker, have Distortion (like in the video where the Knight kicked the gen himself once and the Survivor lost a Distortion token, effectively wasting the Killer's kick and going back to repair immediately) or simply be far enough away after having pre-ran? This kick is automatically 1/8th of your regression events wasted on that gen, ergo it's not worth the perk slot when starting to go against decent Survivors. Why use Trail of Torment if a hidden Survivor can remove the effect mere seconds after you turn your back, wasting a regression event for no significant value?
And again: The limit is useable by decent Survivors! Vital gens can be purposefully kept on decent progress to force the Killer to kick/regress them. And don't say "then don't regress the gen!" because it's not an option against decent Survivors! Since you have no way to know if they'll be using the limit against you, you have to assume they'll finish the gen given the chance, which can take a pretty short time, a single bad chase against a half-decent Survivor can easily give enough time to complete a gen that's already on the way.
Sometimes losing one vital gen (main lobby in R.P.D., center on Yamakoa, Center on Lérys, 2nd story in Main buildings of Asylum etc.) can guarantee a hard endgame due to gens suddenly being pretty far apart (and those gens being likely to be halfway/low on regression events by the end) and weaker/slow/M1 Killers don't have the mobility to deal with this, they never have and never will.
But Survivors having an easier time if they manage to do those high-traffic gens is a good thing because there should be a way to make the lategame a bit easier and avoid a 3-gen, it was part of Survivor gameplay to choose which gens to do in order to be able to repair gens in relative safety despite the "playground" getting smaller to make sure that they could get the most value out of their teammates' chases. Good Survivors, before this ill-thought-out limit was implemented, would (and still do) divebomb vital and/or high-traffic gens in order to get the hardest gens first and make lategame (if they survived this long) easier on themselves, now they can do the gens in mostly whatever order they want if they are not going against a high-mobility/powerful Killer since there's a likely chance that some gens will have been regressed several times already and the Killer will be forced to prioritize. Tight matches will suddenly turn into stress-inducing losses because the Killer simply couldn't afford to not focus on defending one of the last 3 gens over the others.
If the mechanic only worked during the last gen (some people are apparently saying that due to bad map rng and Skull Merchant existing it maybe should kick in at 2 gens remaining but 4-gen setups are a tad too rare for that in my opinion, it would be better than now I guess) then it would bring back the previous strategy to remove vital gens early BUT would prevent endless games even if the game ended on a 3-gen, the only difference is that a Killer that guarded his 3-gen from the get-go will have to deal with a team in better shape and, due to likely having brought regression perks, will burn through those regression events fast defending a 3-gen against a team in good shape (just like before, but add the good part that Chess Merchant and Attrition Knight can't really exist anymore due to regression limit). I'd honestly take the regression events being reduced to 6-7 if it meant being only active during last gen.
Killers aren't killing less but now they are killing in the same way with the same perks and tunnelling more and weaker Killers are simply more affected by this. The update explicitly stated that the mechanic should not affect normal gameplay, however since it forces non-3-genning people to change their builds and playstyles then it's logical to say it does affect normal gameplay.
Changing the regression limit to be percentage-based but still active the whole trial would just shift the problem instead of fixing it: it would hurt stronger but fairer regression perks (Pain Res and Pop are well-designed because they require a hook but could block a gen in like 4-5 activations if used together and the gen is getting pressured by Survivors) the game would just become gen-blocking and tunnelling simulator. It would be even easier for Survivors to use the regression limit against the Killer.
A and S tier Killers (Nurse, Blight, Wesker etc.) don't care about this mechanic because they never needed regression that much compared to weaker/M1 Killers, their chases tend to be shorter and they can patrol effectively even if they lose a Survivor, leaving a chase that's lasting too long isn't that much of a blow to their game compared to slow Killers and gens will likely have less progress on them when they reach them (which means wasting a kick sometimes isn't even necessary, mitigating the mechanic's effect early on). Nobody is saying that the mechanic is killing all Killers, we're saying it's clearly affecting the gameplay of weaker/M1 Killers more and it shouldn't do so. The 3-gen solution was marketed as something that would stop endless 3-gen stalemates and while it does that, it also shifts the entire gameplay for weaker/M1 Killers and makes many perks redundant, lowering perk and Killer variety which is something that no one wants.
Initial scream: I'm saying weak Killers (or rather weak Killer players) will lose if they play bad, such as wasting their regression resources. My name is "mizark3" on the forums here, not "NO ONE".
P1: I don't think it kills non-optimal perks as much as it punishes foolish usage of perks. Both sides get punished for making mistakes, and that should never be framed as bad. If someone misplays, they shouldn't be rewarded. As far as tunneling, I already detailed that in the 3rd paragraph of my reply to you above. Short version is they killed anti-tunnel from 6.1, and it has slowly risen over time until they actually put anti-tunnel back in the game.
P2: The limit of gen regression is a tool for skilled Survivors as the limit of pallets is a tool for skilled Killers. I think both sides having access to macro skill expression is good for the game. Just as Survivors can waste their pallets and give the Killer an advantage, if the Killer mindlessly kicks gens at 7% instead of chasing the Survivor on the gen, they should gift the Survivors an advantage. Bad plays should result in bad outcomes.
P3: If the defense of one gen is so vital, the Killer should wisely use their regression on that gen, and more importantly chase the Survivors off of the gen and hook them. Before a Survivor is hooked, there are 3 Survivors on gens, and 1 in chase, or 300% gen efficiency. After a Survivor is hooked, there should be 1 on hook/being healed, 1 rescuing/healing, 1 in chase, and 1 on gens, or 100% gen efficiency. By actually putting pressure on Survivors, the Killer is able to apply 66% slowdown to gens. That is like full Thana+Pentimento+Gift of Pain all put together (if GoP and Thana weren't mutually exclusive). If the Killer decides to chase the person where the previous Survivor went down, then there likely aren't any pallets remaining, and the chase goes that much easier.
P4: The threat of the Killer is reliant on their presence. If the Killer is present and aware, they will chase and down the Survivors going for specific high priority areas. Then when the next Survivor attempts that high value target, the Killer has a deadzone to work with, making it easier on subsequent chases. The Killer doesn't need mobility as much as they need presence of mind to plan their opponents moves and counter them in Macro efforts (consumable resources) as well as Micro efforts (individual chase decisions).
P5: It is important to always work, because a Killer can merely scan the map and plan out their 4/5 gen instead of 3 gen, and play defense instead of offense. H-maps are notorious to have a 5 gen in about half of (my) matches, and a 4 gen in the remaining half of (my) matches. Now you confused me here. You mention Attrition Knight, which the video clearly showed the Killer engaging in that playstyle (only kicking when a Survivor isn't on hook providing pressure), but now you are against it? I'm sorry could you explain how he isn't playing Attrition Knight if he bothered to kick the same gen 4 times in 3 minutes without a single event being while someone was on hook? That looks like Attrition Knight to me.
P6: I think this is a misdiagnosis of the problem as players crutching on tunneling (due to the lack of any counterplay) is the problem here. If someone can't crutch on something, they have to learn to adapt.
P7: Why is PR and Pop being applied together being considered more fair than Surge? It would shift the issue yes, but it would make what I believe to be the fairer usage of perks to be what is impacted. No one enjoys doing a gen 4 times over, and both spam kicks and hard hitting regression both attack that same concept. Plus with the system as is, PR/Pop can be cheesed by repairing 4.75% before letting go to deny the Pop anyway. That I think is a greater issue to fix.
P8: Mobility Killers are too powerful, we already knew this. Bringing all Killers in line to a similar power level would allow for an easier time negotiating these differences. I fully think S and D tier shouldn't exist, and S should be nerfed down to A or lower, and D buffed up to C or higher. Also throw in wildcard changes like the Billy buff to bring weaker Killers up to A tier, and equal type nerfs to bring A tier Killers down to C tier. I think the issue here is people are engaging in 3-gen regression styled strategies, but don't want to admit they are doing it. Surge is an exception to that, as it more accidentally does that than purposefully does.
Conclusion: Going back to the Knight example, they had 0 reason to kick the gen 4 times in 3 minutes (without a Survivor on hook) unless they were engaged in that 3-gen playstyle. Like I detailed in my prior response (but it might have been in the section to the other poster), a gen kick gives the Survivor 12s extra in chase, or if no one is on hook, 36 extra gen seconds (minus 8 for the kick and passive regression) across the map. If those Killers stop kicking and start chasing, they would get much better results. This isn't affecting normal matches, this is affecting some of the lowest skill bracket matches, and people intentionally engaging in 3-gen and 3-gen adjacent actions.
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@Samatrain said:
We all love DBD, that's why we play it, and that's why we're here on these forums always addressing our concerns and the things we like. But now I would argue is one of DBD's peaks. Resident Evil chapters were obviously great hits but now we've got (I would argue) hit after hit. Yeah we went through some tough times, some tough releases, but now things have been great, despite all the negativity people have about balancing. We got the Xenomorph, which was awesome (even though it needed some tweaks to be brought down a little), a super cool implementation of Chucky, Alan Wake and this All Things Wicked chapter! Maybe I'm a bit biased too but the Iron Maiden collab and Slipknot collabs are also reasons I've returned after many months.
Anyways, what do you think are some of DBD's peaks?
I think immediately prior to 5.2 or 5.3 was the best time. 5.3 Introduced the boring hatch we have now, and more importantly Boon Meg, both of which were terrible changes/additions. To be fair, the brief time where CoH was killswitched was good, but still had the negative hatch change. 5.2 Introduced MMR to replace Ranks, which still to this day makes the game worse. When you had to balance your gameplay to rank up, it meant you were actually playing the game instead of cheesing the game. Now that we are forced into the kill/escape binary, which means "it doesn't matter how you got there", and thus skill-expression is ignored, something that didn't happen (to remotely the same degree) under ranks.
Alternatively, immediately prior to 6.1. We had fair perks needlessly gutted, and many of them are now buffed to arguably better states. At the same time, perks that were fair got needlessly gutted or nerfed (Self-Care, DS, Calm Spirit, Hex: Ruin, Thanatophobia). Now to be fair, Conspicuous Actions and Basekit BT were good changes, but anti-tunnel Endurance should still work while Deep Wounded, and (anti-tunnel Endurance) shouldn't even apply Deep Wound to begin with. Pop and PR are now better than they were before. I can get 6 hooks with all PR procs and a kill (1/1/1/4) with MORE regression (6*15=90%, 4*25=100%) than before, and Pop gives more regression as long as the 4th piston is active, so basically on the only gens you should bother kicking anyways. Also it introduced Call of Brine+Overcharge+Eruption 'monkey with a keyboard can win as Killer' gameplay.
Right now we still have busted Blight/Nurse, no anti-tunnel in the game unless you want to count Buckle Up+For the People (which sometimes is a problem on its own when not used for anti-tunnel), no ranked game mode features when we only have ranked and customs (because MMR isn't optional, ranked is the only public play game mode), and more. They also just introduced No Mither 2 Electric Boogaloo aka "lemme spend 2 minutes in the basement to apply No Mither and at most 50s of usable gen progress". Soloq is probably the worst it has ever been right now, but casual Killer isn't bad.
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The main flaw I've heard from opponents to this type of system is something along the lines of "this comes from distrusting BHVR to create balanced perks to begin with, why do you think they would rate the perks at the correct rating?"
I like the idea personally, but that BHVR balance issue definitely is understandable looking at their track record.
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As long as it is a legitimate 'surrender' feature, then it would be fine as long as it disabled perks/exit gate effects. That way it couldn't be abused by people trying to cheese a Bloodwarden win. Alternatively, allow the Killer to walk out the exit within 15s when opened early in this fashion, and the match ends if done.
The only problem I can think is if cheats can make it 'control' another character a Survivor cheater could 'force' the Killer to open the gates.
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@Atom7k said:
As more and more chapters are added to dbd the balancing becomes quite more stressfull especially when perks have potentially high synergie.
I thought maybe we can solve two problems with a limit on how often each individual player can use a perk.
For example 'Devour Hope' is a strong perk and is only allowed up to 5 usages per day, 'Adrenalin' is in the same category for survivors and will be struck with the same limiter.
I do get that new players who don't have any dlc's would be suffering as they run out of perks to use if they play all day long. So balancing the numbers here would also be crucial.
On the other hand I think it would encourage everyone to try new builds and would finally break the stale meta build situation we are currently in. Killers don't have to worry about 4 'Adrens', '4 'lithe', 4 'windows of opportunity' and a variety of 'unbreakable', 'resiliance' and 'sprint burst' while the surivors don't have to face 'Pain res', 'pop', 'Ultimate Weapon' or 'noed' every match. It also would mean you have to learn and master the power of the killer because the perks are not the primary carrier of the game anymore.
I think it could linger the stress and the speed that currently is seen in the average match. New builds would mean new ways to play and more overall variety.
I do get that nobody really likes being forced to do something different but a lot of fun happens outside of your comfort zone.
What do you think and what would be your approach to tone the stress in the matches down?
The problem of 'meta' perks is that they are non-competitive with the rest of the perks. Would you ever run Poised or Bloodhound? Other perks need to be useful enough to be considered swapping out a meta perk for, or provide some other sort of benefit. If a perk has limited usefulness, it should be better than a comparable perk. Look at old/new Botany vs Desperate Measures. 33/50% vs 14% per injured Surv, or 14/28/42/56. This means DM was better at 3 injured Survs before, and now it is only better at 4 injured Survs. When they adjusted Botany, they should have increased DM to 21%/Surv to keep parity, or added new effects like adding Mending or Killer specific action speeds to the list as well.
Also, drawbacks are almost always mentally framed as a bad thing. You instead want to classify things as positive. To promote build diversity, give an extra effect or increased effectiveness for variety. Things like "Slowdown: 25% stronger if not used with any other Slowdown", or for Surge "Regression from this perk counts as half/'none at all' toward the regression limit". This allows people to still use multiple perks, but are rewarded for not stacking categories. You could also create set bonuses for weaker perks/adepts, to increase the strength of otherwise worthless perks.
If we simply limit X matches per day using the perk, people will instead quit after their usages run out, and matches will be even harder to find. Even if there is a timer like DCs, people might just AFK in the lobby and wait it out before they are 'allowed' to play again. Since games want as much player engagement time as possible (and not soaking server space logged in but AFK), this likely would never see the light of day.
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I think Killers knowing SWF status before the match starts is only ok if Survivors know which Killer they are facing before the match starts. Both will cause a mild increase in match quality, at the cost of massive amounts of lobby dodging.
The only unique flaw to knowing which Killer you are playing against is that stealth Killers (which are my favorite to play) will be nerfed massively as a result.
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Main building effectively being an infinite against M1 Killers doesn't feel good. At the same time, it feels like 90% of the map is a deadzone (outskirts and gallows side are much too weak), so it feels like you can only run main or windmill as Survivor. Make the gallows side of the map playable as Survivor, and swap the upstairs breakable wall/window locations. (see picture)
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@Hex_Ignored said:
Huntress wind up speed buff is unwarranted and can be extremely oppressive, especially since she can stack her wind up add ons on top off that. Also with the added hatchets consider reworking her extra hatchets add ons and her wind up speed add ons to compensate for the base kit changes.
Similarly for clown, I think the extra bottle add ons should be adjusted to compensate for the new base bottle carry capacity.
Blight add on buffs are as questionable as always.
Agreed on Huntress and Blight, but Clown doesn't have the potential for a damage state with his bottles. I do think it can feel a bit oppressive when facing him, but it doesn't impact the match at large nearly as much.
@Gabe_Soma said:
Revert the other two Huntress buffs, none asked for them and they are not warranted. Try to add more lockers in the map instead.
Scrap and rework entirely the Clown's Pinkie Finger add-on, it's more than useless now.
Blight keep getting buffs?
The Doctor can literally spam his M2 preventing survivors to unhook now even more easily. I'm ok with the buffs but, what about this?
Yes more lockers please. Every new map/reworked map seems to forget Huntress and Dredge exist. Lockers are far too rare and this increases their power in a more universal way that Survivors can potentially use as well, so it doesn't feel so one-sided.
@jonifire said:
Pig
More important to me:
- Huntress lullaby and unnerving presence should work with her traps/box skill checks
Nice to have changes:
- jig saw box auras back (or maybe as addon)
- timer reduction by 10s (to 140s)
- terror radius reduction to 24m or 28m
- an addon which hides the boxes auras, when the traps are activated (if needed it increases the timer)
Huntress
I would revert the buffs or only if needed give her 6 hatchets. I never thought she needed buffs.
Doctor
Make his illusions like mirage‘s decoys from apex legends. It works like when you move to the right/left, walk any direction, attack, turn around, etc the illusion does the exact same, but it doesn‘t damage you or shock you.
Clown
I think his bottles disorientation effects are too weak
Clown - I haven't seen Survivor sided disorientation yet, but that was key to winning 50-50s even against skilled players. If they did something like Doctor clones spawning, then that could help. Alternatively make the Clown invisible while Survivors Intoxicated (with Red Stain still visible), that way it still provides the 50-50 value without the threat of nausea. I do find it strange that Clown nausea is unacceptable but Doctor induced Seizures and Plague vomiting are still perfectly fine.
@Mag1cian said:
Huntress buff is overkill, 9 hatchets with addon really? And on top of it you can add "Flower Babushka". Giving huntress basekit buffs without adjusting her addons is stupid, leave alone hatchet hitboxes.
The problem with hatchet hitboxes is more a lag/latency issue than actual hitbox problem. If there was a lag-test to see if the server thought you were behind a wall before accepting a hit then it wouldn't be a problem. Sadly I face too many VPN Killers using lag as an advantage. This lag problem is also why people don't like playing as Ghostface, as you can get lag revealed through walls, and Killer no longer is strictly the wielder of 'lagvantage'.
Also like many other posters mentioned, I think Clown's exposed add-on should be made into something else. Huntress' instadown Hatchet work on hit, but Clown needed both the bottle and the M1 to down. That made it fine to work with extra bottle add-ons, just start at 1. Now that it is a static 1, there is no point in using it unless you want to facecamp in endgame and play as a powerless M1 Killer all match.
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Overall I'd say the map is better for Killers. The map is relatively small, with little to no good pallets. Usable windows are near non-existent (barring the god-window). Gen spawns always feel super bad, and I've frequently had 2 gens spawn on the same upper platform section on one side or the other. That means there are 4 solo gens, with 2 easily patrolled at the same time.
One fun sidenote is that this is a surprisingly good Trapper map. The long drop kinda always forces you to fall in the same spot, and I had 3 trap activations (I hooked from) there in a single game once. You can also block the only good locations for the Survivors to run.
The gates are one of the few things in the Survivor's favor, but only if you are non-mobility/Plague Killers.
Overall bad experience as Survivor, mixed experience as Killer.
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The map is a macro test for both sides. If you blindly run pallet to pallet as Survivor, you can win too easily because there are too many pallets and too few windows (above bathroom and exit gate windows are a joke if you count them). If you force chases into deadzones as Killer, and camp/patrol chokepoints, you can win too easily also. The side that has the greater macro understanding wins, and micro in chase is largely meaningless. I do think more windows should be implemented, and fewer pallets. Even then though, the majority of pallets are bloodlustable, and it feels as though they are designed to bloodlusted. When sweatlord Survivors juice every milisecond out of every pallet, Killer loses. At the same time, newbie Survivors can't navigate the map to find gens, even with the previous update. Also if you get 1 soloq weak link, you can chase them into god pallets and get free deadzone hits on the skilled Survivors as there are no pallets left in that area. While I voted balanced, I find this map easier as Killer than Survivor, because you can't carry soloq weak links unlike other maps.
One facet I think is criminally underrated on this map is the closed doors opening on gen completion. I wish more maps had this type of mechanic. For those who don't know, the top floor always has a gen on the clockwise side of the doors, and the bottom always has a gen on the counter-clockwise side of the doors. If you know this as Killer, it is much easier to approach from odd-angles or find Survivors. If you know this as Survivor it is much easier to find a path to unhook or a pump a gen.
Also as someone who prefers to play Stealth Killers, I always love an indoor map that actually can block line-of-sight for approaches. Autohaven is unplayably bad in comparison (for stealth).
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I think Strength in Shadows is largely fine, most people complaining about it aren't taking the travel time into the equation. Most times it would be better to just bring Self-Care or a Med-Kit and BTL for reloads and that would be more time efficient.
Wicked is neat, but largely unimpressive. If it allowed a single basement self-unhook regardless of hook state then it would be much better, but as is, its mediocre at best.
Weaving Spiders is so cool in theory, but not in practice. This is the only perk I care about as it is a new mechanic, so replies to other thoughts on WS are found below.
@Hex_Ignored said:
I have to stress again just how terrible weaving spiders is. Yes, on paper installing 7 bnps sounds insane until you look at the cost. 120 seconds sitting in the basement doing nothing and becoming permanently broken. This isn't worth it at all.
Wicked at least has some use as an info perk now. Still, the "main effect" is extremely situational but the aura reading part is usable and pushes the perk from bad to niche.
Strength in shadows is meh. It's not offensively bad (unlike weaving spiders) but it's also not really worth using. Running injured across the map to self care in basement is risky and should have a higher reward. It's probably faster to just self care in a safer place anywhere on the map.
Weaving Spiders is so pathetic that I'm surprised it got nerfed before hitting live.
@YuffieGreatestWaifu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3673301#Comment_3673301
Its -10 off the gen and killer can never undo it with Brandnew parts you could take one of the killers 3gens and reduce it to 40 (40 Brand new parts and the perk) he would be forced to either camp the gen fully or give up on that gen protect.
-10s on all gens for 120s isn't worth it even in the best case scenario (all 7 for 70). The problem is the perk isn't time efficient AND it has a massive drawback on top of it. The current version of the perk is only good for people being tunneled, then lost in chase (somehow), then hiding in basement doing the invocation for the rest of the match.
@jonifire said:
Weaving spiders: Make that you loose a hook state by completing it, instead of being broken and reduce the time it takes to 80-100s.
Strength in shadows is good I think.
Wicket: Add that you are able to try to unhook yourself at second hook stage even when not in the basement.
Weaving Spiders - I like this idea for a penalty, as you could do it on death hook for no penalty, but the Killer has a free basement kill if they find you. Alternatively have the Invocation duration also be the Broken duration, so if people co-oped it they also help you be broken for less time.
@Coffeecrashing said:
I think invocations are just going to be annoying for the killer. It doesn’t matter how powerful the invocations are, the threat of them will always be there. And if the basement isn’t anywhere near any unfinished generators, then killers would need to greatly increase their patrol path to check on the basement.
In general, invocations are just a “let’s make low mobility killers feel even worse” idea.
This is the only criticism of Invocations I've heard that makes valid points. For Killer it will always be a nuisance factor, and strict nuisance factors for the opposition shouldn't be encouraged. They very well could end up mostly being used by bad actors as troll perks, like Knockout or No Mither (to troll your team).
@SoGo said:
It would not hurt anyone if Invocation: WS was 15 charges and not 10, only make the perk a bit more appealing. The -5 extra seconds won't harm anyone, come on BHVR.
Strength in Shadows is good. And will be better after the big boom around the chapter stops. I'm satisfied.
Wicked... The aura reveal part, great. The basement unhook is also good imo.
So overall, these perks are decent. I like them.
WS - That was what I was expecting when people asked for it to be permanent. Bizarre they had to slap such a massive penalty on a perk with such a massive downside.
@[Deleted User] said:
Weaving Spiders should not regress progress when the action is interrupted. It's incredibly punishing to spend 110 seconds doing the Invocation, only to be interrupted at the very end and have to spend another 120 seconds.
I'm of two minds on this one. I can see the nuisance factor Coffeecrashing brought up (see two replies above), and this would help mitigate that on the Killer's end. At the same time if someone sees a soloq teammate doing this, get interrupted, then try it again later, they're probably going to ragequit to leave that 3v2. Maybe a hybrid system with 25% checkpoints would be fine, or alternatively dropping the time down to 60s (with the current 10s/gen).
@Star99er said:
The invocation perk doesn’t feel very incentivizing to use, especially when you get no bloodpoints for risking all that time in the basement. It should give objective based bloodpoints.
It should probably just give you the 7k Escape Survival BP on completion. You are basically killing yourself by using the perk, so it should just give you the benefit of what you are denying yourself. The BP category already has difficulties reaching the full 10k, so this could also help in that respect.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3673079#Comment_3673079
As you can see from the videos provided, the issue happened even when not running surge. Still happens on normal matches. That being said, it happens FAR more often with surge - absolutely! I'm just pointing out it's still affecting normal matches even without surge. I also posted a follow-up video showing how my survivor team was able to reduce a knight's charges on a gen down to HALF of his charges on the main gen before the 3 minute mark of a match. He was not running ANY regression perks.
I'm sorry but you first asked to not comment on the play/mistakes made, so I held my tongue, but now you specifically said to watch and comment on the videos. You very often dropped chase/pressure opportunities to kick a gen for no reason. That contributed to the gen limit because you were trying to slow down the opponents win condition instead of advancing your own. Not only that, but you nearly never made use of your power to pre-stalk 2-3 players, or even approach from odd angles to get a free down. I can understand if you kicked a gen, stalked the person you pushed off, then they are forced to follow you and reveal, or stop the gen regression, but you would kick and follow instead (most often). The first match showcased multiple bodyblocks, and one of the times you got a free down because there was a pre-stalk, but that was far from as common as it should be happening.
As far as the Knight video, that also showcases attempting to delay the game indefinitely instead of actually progress the win condition. Winning through attrition shouldn't be the primary means of Killer winning, but it most certainly should help (pallet destruction). The Knight needlessly sent a minion to kick the gen (which denied him a Nowhere to Hide usage), when he should have plopped the minion near it to keep people off and chase them (as the minion likely would have seen you through the wall, even if he didn't know you were there specifically). The Knight not running any regression perks shows how much of a foolish mistake it was to kick the gen over and over for no real benefit. Get a down and then use Pop or PR or Eruption proc or whatever, just don't try to stall the game.
Gen regression is now a resource for Killer, just as Pallets are for Survivor. If you recklessly kick/pre-drop all your resources away, you will cause your side to lose. That seems better for the game at large. It isn't affecting normal matches, just the ones where people refuse to chase are being punished. This is an important time to learn the new mechanics and adapt to get away from stalling playstyles. I do think Surge and Eruption need to be adjusted, but I don't know how to fix Surge. For Eruption, I would just make the proc not count as a regression event (as you needed to kick the gen to set it up regardless, so it would still advance the max regression count).
@Skillfulstone said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3673079#Comment_3673079
If it was just a Surge issue the Surge is the only perk that would have been mentioned.
Quite frankly, Surge isn't the worst perk for this, Eruption is, in a way, far worse since it takes away 2 regression events for a measly 10% (which is literally just 2 base kicks, doesn't even stop Survivors from getting back on it instantly to get back the progress before the Killer can hook and go back, Eruption was less of a trash perk when kicks were 2.5% since it was at least better than 2 base kicks), combine it with Surge and more than 30% of your regression events are gone in one kick and one down.
But it's not just a perk issue. Weaker/slower/M1 Killers simply can't deal with Survivors that keep going for the same gens if the Survivors are half-decent in chase (or hiding). The system expects the Killers to wait until the gens have a high progress to regress them but gen-speed simply doesn't allow that, not kicking a gen that's above 30% in-between chases is just asking for a hidden Survivor(s) to come back to finish it (since a gen at 30% takes slightly less than a minute to complete and that's without any gen perks/items/multiple Survivors/great skillchecks), but kicking those gens when found can force the Killer in a bad spot in lategame if they are past the halfway point by the time there's one gen left.
To compensate for this, Killers have to do their upmost to get at least one person out asap, there's a reason why tunnelling has recently increased significantly and perk variety took a dive (Except for Pop and Pain Res there's effectively no regression perks being used often, all non-regression kick perks like Trail of Torment or Nowhere To Hide are basically gone). The mechanic is supposed to remove endless games without messing with normal games, it currently does affect normal games since this mechanic alone shifted the meta, reduced perk variety and made weaker/M1 Killers harder to play at a higher level. Endless games are obnoxious and the idea behind the mechanic isn't worthless but all it needs to be perfect is to only activate when there's one gen left.
See final paragraph in the above reply for Eruption/Surge, as well as the Pallet/Gen Regression comparison.
I think the problem is from weaker Killer players getting too used to attrition wins against Survivors by running them out of pallets for free wins. Kicking the gen gives a Survivor 7.2m, or since a Killer moves .6m/s faster than Survivor, 12 free chase seconds at the cost of 5 gen seconds. That is a losing proposition unless they are cornered (and not actually getting that distance), or you are applying a perk to give you 7+ seconds of chase shortening or gen regression (eg. Nurse+Nowhere to Hide, or the gen is PGTW'd at 50%+).
As far as hidden Survivors, Lethal+NTH solves that. Lethal lets Killer know how many people have Distortion, and how to plan their early game (excellent for Ghosty/Myers to plan a multi-stalk route). As far as gen speeds, if a chase takes 60s to down and hook, there were massive mistakes made by the Killer. The Killer with extended chases like that should record their matches, then watch the recording and think about different options they could have made, or if they destroyed a lot of pallets in that area, push future chases back into that deadzone. Kicking a 30% gen down to 25% only to regress to 22% after 12s(when the Killer ran 55m away) and the hidden Survivor gets on the gen is still the wrong move to take without relevant gen perks. Even there wasn't a Survivor, the Killer has to still lose that 12 chase seconds while 2 or 3 other Survivors are repairing gens for 36s of gen time. Getting to chase is more important that random gen delay.
Tunneling has undergone a significant increase ever since they deleted all anti-tunnel perks from the game after patch 6.1. (Yes they didn't 'delete' them, but 3s DS is useless against the majority of Killers, and OTR doesn't work if the Killer tunnels off-hook.) It is an easy free win against soloq, and since 60% of matches include soloq, Killer wins more than loses by doing it. Just like instakicking gens, it is a bad habit formed from previous free wins, causing the Killer to believe that win was 'earned' instead of simply cheesed by abusing soloq bad habits.
Personally, I would prefer instead of the Regression limit as X events(per gen), it was X%(per gen). I would set it at 100%, so you never would have to spend more than 3 minutes to repair a single gen (90s+90s).
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It would be fine if there were methods to unblock gens, or perks to benefit from gens being blocked. Repressed Alliance would be a perfect perk to remove entity blocks when charged. Other weaker perks could also be given this extra functionality, but not as effective as RA should be imo.
Heck, Dark Theory could be buffed to prevent entity blocks (and maybe even regression) while the gen is within the boon radius. Red Herring could loud noise and unblock the gen. Poised could be buffed to also hide scratch marks while any gen is blocked. Made for This (haste) could also activate while you are within 32m of a blocked gen. Empathic Connection could get a 10% heal speed boost per gen blocked, and/or enable self-healing while gens are blocked. Technician could work on gens at half speed while blocked.
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@Starrseed said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3673061#Comment_3673061
p1: is that real? are the people who engage with the game more then clicking play the minority? thats super interesting and crazy to think for me.
p2: 5min q is for me personally the max. thats reasonable time for me to wait for a game if it gets longer the match itself needs to be quite long for me to be cool with that. if i have on average 5 to 10 min q but the game is only 10 to 15min long i think thats a lost time if you know what i mean.
p3: well then its time for them to do something against that. its not like i have a clean slate and that i never ever dodge a lobby im not a saint in that regard but if thats the leading problem that makes matchmaking so bad it needs to go even so i like the lobby and that the killer gets some room to adjust his build based on item.
p4: that is maybe the point why i am so against killer bans. i am kinda a one trick or rather a two trick. i only play two diffrent killers. partly because i cant handle most of the other killers i struggle with movement power killers like blight or wesker and everything ranged is horror for me. i know thats on me cause i surly could slog through 50 or so games till i may find another killer but for me its mostly a love on first sight thing in games.
p5: sure my questions could be choosed better it was a quick idea but i thought they may could replace that rift window with it that pops up after every game so its in your view a bit better cause im super honest i was playing this game for quite soe time when i first dicoverd that "how fun was the match" thing maybe they could reward players for using a system like that. something like "if you are a nice player and always give feedback you get a prize" something like that even so that would probably only make them just click anything so they get something in the end
P1: The last I recall the general interaction rate is 50% (including lurkers), and 25% (max) for posting+content creation. Think of how many games you've played, and how many you bothered to make an account and post on the forums for and I think it would be lower than that. My main MMO DDO I don't even post about on their forums, I just play and watch videos. BG3 and Deceive I also watch(ed) videos. I don't watch or post for Deep Rock Galactic or Helldivers 2 (or 1 for that matter), I just play.
P2: Nothing to add
P3: The Killer having time to swap perks/add-ons is great. It is just when people back out (for whatever reason) that it causes matchmaking to go haywire in order to have the people who already waited in line get any match just to get a match.
P4: I mean if you can't handle movement powers, I don't think you really have to worry tbh. Wesker and Blight and Chucky and Nurse are all among stronger Killers, and that basically is only because of their movement powers.
P5: Ok yeah I friggin' hate that the rift blocks everything for like 20s in the endgame screen. As far as the post-game systems they could probably add like 1k BP for the first person you use the props feature on (that can't be given to your SWF), but I'm not sure its worth encouraging people to use the fun bar every match. People will likely mindlessly click 1 or 5 based on who won, and not give meaningful feedback.
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This is just a Surge issue, not a low-tier Killer issue. I run PR/Floods/Coup/Lethal and never have issues reaching 8 events on 1 gen while killing them (in 70%+ of matches) before they can pop the final. If you have enough Iri Cams you can even substitute Floods for something else like Bamboozle. I find lethality to be the most useful for Ghosty, but I also refuse to chase until I get 2-3 99s in early game. You can also replace a slowdown perk with the Driver's License if you engage in a heavy stalk playstyle. With DL you can somewhat frequently mark a second person mid chase on another injured person just to boot them off the gen and regress it.
Similarly with Clown I run Pop as my sole slowdown and also have no problems winning (again in 70%+) before the final gen pops. No Tombstone Myers I don't even run gen regression perks and run Thana/Plaything/Penti/(Coup or Bam 4th), although that build had a steep learning curve before I reached close to my Ghosty/Clown winrates (9/10 first matches were losses before I understood game flow to win).
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Arguably there should be a menu option, or it remembers your choice to click the arrow to close/open chat between matches. That way if you closed endgame chat last match, it starts closed at the end of the next. The menu option could simply be Default On/Default Off/Remember Last.
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@Starrseed said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3673026#Comment_3673026
but then you still end up with a cycle where the one killer who is considered the best is banned by lets say 75% cause there surly are plenty people who would ban that one killer that is not strong but they cant handle and oufcourse there are the super new players who are not yet into watching streamers and stuff.
and to your first argument. we dont skip lobbys the player who wants to play that one killer that right now is considered the best is just not getting any lobbys for i would asume 10-15 minutes. and if he gets lobbys he is quickly giong to see that he is facing the same players over and over cause server are not worldwide so there is a max amount of players you can encounter and if we assume the bigger part of these players are going to block that killer you will quickly only run into that players.
these player then also only face that one killer cause the system ofcourse trys its best to make qs as short as possible so they will always get matched up so we dont have 10-15 minutes qs. and lets dont even think about what a ban system would do to our already broken matchmaking.
in the end i dont think killer banning will do the game any good i think it will actually just make killer mains quit cause they have to face longer qs or even worse matchmaking all for wanting to play a killer they like wich is a big part of dbds selling point for many people. i would love to see bhvr being more active and and being quicker at identifyng killers that are to strong and bringing them back in line and buffing killers that are to weak so survs dont feel like they only see the same three killers.
maybe insteat of a ban system we could have a actually good survey after every game. just three questions.
- do you think the matchmaking in this game was fair
- do you think the perks in this match where fair
and for survivor: do you think the killers power lvl in this match was fair (idk now if there would be something similar for killers)
three simple klicks give every question three points like: -agree- -neutral- -disagree- or something like tha then bhvr could see that data and act on it
P1: I highly doubt it would even reach 75%. Like I said with the wiggle optional feature, it had sub-50% interaction rates. One thing to keep note of is that by discussing the game in the forums or watching YT content, you are (minimum) in the top 25-50% of players (in terms of engagement, but likely skill as well). 50-75% of people in any given game just hit play and don't engage with outside mediums. Even then, the average joe 'in the know' player is not the person who should be facing (insert banned Killer here). It is the person who actually wants to play the game against that Killer who should play against them. So you are going to have a large pool of people who don't use the feature, and the top players wanting to sweat against fellow sweats (assuming everyone is only banning the sweatlord Killers). That allows for the average player who actually interacts with optional features to not have their mood drop on match start.
P2: The last I played, the longest queue I had was 5 minutes, and shortest were 30s, and the matchmaking was still garbage regardless of time in queue. This would double that at worst. That gives me a 1-10 minute queue time. That is well within normal ranges.
P3: BHVR already stated one of the largest matchmaking misfiress/flaws is backfills. So the current matchmaking mishaps you have the current lobby dodging Killers and Survivors to blame for that. My most often encounter with lobby dodges was from Killers dodging my P100 soloq teammates though, but everyone's mileage on that may vary.
P4: I don't think this would impact Killer mains at large, as I would recommend an incentive for the lesser played Killers. This would impact 1-tricks and sweatlords. In that case I would say 1-tricks are an unfortunate casualty and sweatlords won't be missed. This would also improve the soloq quality of matches. The last numbers I recall off the top of my head was soloq was 60% of the playerbase. Since there are 5 players in any given match, that is adjusted down to 48% of players in any given match. I would estimate Sweatlords and 1-tricks combined to be an estimated max of 10% each. 48% improved and 20% worsened is net positive, so mathematically it seems sound to me, even when adjusting Survivor down and giving Killer full percentages.
P5/bullets system: The problem with that is related to my first paragraph's point, in that optional interaction rates are very low. I guess if you believe all optional interactions have 100% usage then this position makes sense, but think back on how many games you didn't click the "How fun was that match 1-5" scale on the top of the endgame screen. There also is the issue with people misinterpreting the questions such as "matchmaking fair" being "no because I stomped (that guy)/(them)" or "no because I got stomped". Similarly with the perks question "no because Poised/Predator are unusably bad" or "Mettle of Man/Lightborn OP" or "Grim Embrace/FTP+BU isn't fun to go against". We also know they ignore DCs, and that is yet another form of player feedback that penalizes the remaining 4 players of the match who have to slog through a foregone conclusion. That foregone conclusion being the Killer having go through the motions of a victory, and Survivors go through the motions of a loss.
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@I_Tunnel said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3651127#Comment_3651127
If Survivors can ban Killers, than Killers can ban Survivor perks. Letting Killers ban maps is not the equivalent.
Since a Killer's power is so important; For every Killer ban Survivors get, Killers get 2 perk bans. And that's on the assumption that a Killer ban is voted on by the entire group, instead of being on a per-Survivor basis (IE: One full lobby of Survivors gets ONE Killer ban, not four.)
If Survivors instead each get a Killer ban, making 4 Killers banned per lobby, then Killers get 6 perk bans per lobby. Because, if Killers are losing out on the 4 strongest Killers (Because this mechanic WILL be abused to block the top Killers), then Survivors are losing out on their best perks.
It's only fair.
Perks are matched with perks. Since Survivors get 16, and Killers get 4, a perk ban system would require a 4 to 1 in Killer's favor. The problem with perk bans is the game has too few anti-'jerk' basekit features, that people would lobby dodge when they see perks banned that would telegraph a playstyle. The Killer banned DS+OTR? They plan on turbo-tunneling. The Survivors banned gen slowdown? They plan on genrushing. There is no good outcome with perk bans.
A Killer ban feature also only prevents lobbies from forming, and doesn't prevent the use of content people paid for. It skips over lobbies, but finds those that are willing to play with that content. I can't remember the last time I had a SM match without an early quit, either hard DC or on hook. If in a hypothetical circumstance where a Killer is always banned, that just shows that people had no desire to play against that garbage in the first place. 1 person should never have fun at the expense of the rest of the people in any given match. That's the overarching concept as to why cheating is so frowned upon, as it ruins the experience for everyone other than the cheater.
@Starrseed said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3651127#Comment_3651127
lets be totally honest the ability to ban killers would only lead to the best killers being banned 99% of the games.
and before anyone says "thats a sign they need nerfs" sure but there will always be a best killer cause when we nerf the curent best there will be a next one and then every patch killer mains will have the funny opportunity to see if there beloved main they spent time and money on will be unplayable until he gets nerfed.
on the whole vomit thing. i as a plague main would be absolutly fine with any form of phibia mode aslong as it is on a per player basis and it does not deface the killer. your idea goes the right way but would destroy her whole theme and just mock her.
See above 2nd paragraph and
When the new wiggle system was implemented as an optional feature, BHVR stated less than 50% of players bothered to use it/get the BP bonus from using it for the full 10 matches (I don't recall which, but it just shows how few people look at menus or read patch notes). If for whatever reason this has 100% usage rate, then there can be an incentive to NOT use it, like 5% BP per slot unused, or a static 25% for no bans. This can also be implemented on the other end, with the 5 least banned Killers getting a 50% incentive, and the next bottom 5 getting a 25% incentive.
As far as the always be a best Killer, I think that the bottom X percent should regularly get buffs, and the top (same) X percent should regularly get nerfs, and occasionally some of those bottom and mid buffs should skyrocket Killers to the top like what could be argued with Billy. That makes people less annoyed by 25% Huntress matches and 25% Wesker matches and the game being stale.
If we are forced to play ranked only (as MMR isn't optional), then we should have the bare minimum basic ranked game QOL.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
A killer trying to get a 4k is fine, because everyone seems ok with survivors trying to get a 0k.
If all the generators have been repaired, 3 survivors could easily escape out of a gate, and a killer hooks a 4th survivor, then the 3 survivors could easily just leave and take the 1k. But they often try to save the 4th person, even though a 1k is a loss for the killer.
There is meaningful risk in getting a 0k, there is not meaningful risk in turning a guaranteed 3k into a 4k. (See CoconutRTS' Bloodwarden compilation) Survivors can lose more than they would stand to gain. Killers can only stand to gain by wasting everyone else's time.
Most 'slug for 4ks' involve 2 already dead, and the third being forced to wait 4 minutes because the Killer has an achievement or an ego trip they 'need' the 4k for. Survivors going for the 0k allows all 5 participants of the game to still play, and both sides can gain or lose more from where they started. Killers going for the 4k most often only has 2 participants of the game still playing, and 1-3 players are 'held hostage' until the match ends. (The 2 dead Survivors may be forced to wait for the match to end to see the Killer perks and add-ons, or wait for their friends to die/escape. The first could be solved by revealing perks/add-ons when you queue up as a solo once you die, or when all members of your SWF are dead in duo/trio queue.)
If you are saying Survivors should be able to contribute to matches while dead. Survivors can be revived through some secret ritual once the gens are completed so that way the game always has 5 players active. Killers could actually stand to lose more than they stand to gain, then all of that sounds interesting and I would agree with you and Killer should be able to go for the 4k and Survivors go for the 0k since both sides can always risk everything for a better or worse result.
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@tyantlmumagjiaonuha said:
From the latest statistics on park usage.
In the matches I attend as both a survivor and a killer, it is not at all uncommon to see multiple people using OTR. The community manager also stated that the perk has to be equipped to be effective, right?
We also don't see Bloodhound and Poised on the list. If the Perks are nearly useless, they aren't going to be picked. If I am having trouble being tracked as Survivor, or tracking as Killer, Bloodhound and Poised are still so bad that they aren't going to help me (for the most part). The same problem is the case with OTR/DS. The value of DS is near nothing, and the value of OTR is negated by hitting the person off hook (killing OTR and basekit BT in 1 shot).
If Bloodhound revealed the auras of Survivors standing in pools of blood, and Poised gave an Iron Will+No Scratchmarks+No Auras+No Bleeding effect to you and every ally who popped the gen, then maybe they would be useful. If DS stunned a reasonable duration (or gave the DS Survivor invisibility+Iron Will+No Scratch Marks+No Bleeding for 15s) it would be useful. If all forms of anti-tunnel Endurance didn't give Deep Wound, OTR would be useful. That sadly isn't the case, so we have useless perks going unpicked (or picked less compared to useful perks) because they are useless.
There also is the problem that DS is essentially a money only perk (Halloween DLC), and OTR/Poised are Iri shards or money perks (Zarina and Jane are Iri Shard purchasable). I think those reasons are somewhat less relevant though, as seen by Bloodhound's lack of use as a free perk.
DH is a ping check, and since too many of my matches involve Killers VPNing for a 'lagvantage', I don't bother using it. Your mileage may vary, but I can't trust it with how often I am 'exhausted on the ground'. (If you start the DH animation and gain the Endurance status effect on your screen, you can still get hit through the Endurance with a sufficiently laggy Killer, but they usually 'refund' your Exhaustion when that happens now.)
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If we were to take an individual change I would have an option to make Plague yell "yay" and shoot rainbows. Survivors would uncontrollably shout "yippee" instead of the vomit for Plague and Nemesis animations.
A more general change would be allowing Killer bans. This would help more people, although people 'forced' to ban Plague/Doc/Clown would unfortunately have fewer bans. (Personally I would have 1 ban per 5 Killers released round down. Also to keep things fair, Killers could ban realms or maps at the same rate. We are forced to play Ranked only, so it would be nice to have basic Ranked QoL features like this.)
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@LeFennecFox said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3651106#Comment_3651106
They keep blight like he is because he's hard to play (for the average player). They've only just now touched his addons which made him insanely powerful. I don't see a 110% blight anytime soon because it would alienate a lot of their playerbase.
They alienate more players by keeping weaker Killers so far under the average, and stronger Killers (like Blight) so far over the average. Normalizing their effectiveness to me is preferable, and Blight being 110 would only have the same effect as Nurse being ~95, where once you learn the Killer you get results.
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If every loop had massive S-curves or were like the c-shaped hay bale loop on farm maps or Yamaoka/Ormond maze tiles, then I could agree with the argument of him being map dependent. Since nearly none of the maps have ALL loops designed that way, then I see no good reason for Blight to remain 115. Huntress has strong(short) and weak(tall) loops, and the mere existence of some loops being weaker for some Killers doesn't mean we should let the excessively strong Killers keep their excess strength from the norm.
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The game is too easy if you are willing to cross certain lines, and too hard if you aren't. Then you have to hope you match up against (and potentially with) other people with your exact same mindset to have a reasonable match.
For Survivor, just play SWF using clock callouts, prioritize gen-b4-fren, use only the 10 best perks, and bring the most tricked out items.
For Killer, just tunnel the weak link, proxy camp the hook, use only the 10 best perks, and bring the most tricked out Killer+add-on combos.
If you play Killer without sweating, you have to hope the Survivors are doing the same. If you play Survivor without sweating, you have to hope that not only the Killer is doing the same, but your fellow Survivors are as well. (That's why I say soloq is far worse, because someone who is supposed to help you can instead hurt you.)
I hard uninstalled because the game was too sweaty for me to enjoy either side's matches anymore. I hate playing sweatlord Killers, and like playing 'dumb, but it works' stuff like Penti/Plaything/Thana Myers without Tombstone. At the same time in soloq, Killers kept tunneling my baby teammates, and people would waste time trying to help them, causing a 3/4k. I blame MMR for the sweatfest, and if I ever return (and they don't fix MMR) I will always purposely die at endgame as Survivor, and always only hook Survivors twice as Killer.
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@Mandy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3650863#Comment_3650863
even tens of thousands matches doesn't really come close to the amount of matches per day...hundreds of thousands might be better but it's closer to a million or more
That's why individual data is subjective, one persons experience is not going to be the same as another persons.
We use data plus feedback, neither are used on their own when we make decisions.
The balance between escape rates and kill rates is carefully monitored - right now it's in a pretty good spot across the board, it doesn't mean that we're not making changes to certain things, the wonders of a Live game is that there will always be adjustment to things as you've been able to see on our Live roadmap, but I can definitely confirm we have no plans to move away from the 60/40 split, this is what we're aiming for.
My read of the OP's message is more of "Don't blindly follow the stats, ask the 'why'". While the kill rates may be accurately in the 60% range, how many of those kills/escapes were because the Killer let the Survivors go/Survivors refused to leave and died to endgame collapse, and does the system account for that? (rhetorical)
Also with DCs not being counted towards the stats, that creates another mismatch of player experience and data. The 3 remaining Survivor players have to finish playing out the doomed match, and hate every moment of it. When we are told "DCs aren't tracked" along these other (varying levels of) common player experiences, we instead interpret the message as something like "LOL sucks to be you, because that isn't real". Having a 'with' and 'without' for something like DCs helps that significantly more.
DCs are also a clear player experience message (in the current system). If someone is willing to soak an escalating penalty and still play, that means that particular experience was so bad and the game at large isn't at fault. If they stop playing after the DC though, they might just be going to bed. If Joe-Schmoe DCs against every Nurse, they are sending player feedback that Nurse is the problem, not the game. If we are told DCs aren't tracked, we are told (some level of) player feedback is ignored.
When someone says "I feel like the 'true' escape rate is 20-35% because I include when the Killer farms us (2-hook release) and matches with DCs", the 'why' is clearly stated. When there is such an extreme mismatch of player experience and data (like OP's 'true' 26% escape rate), it lowers faith in the game's integrity. Player experience shouldn't be this far divorced from the data, or that causes people to believe the dev team to be out of touch. The targeted 60/40 feels much different for the 3 Survivors with a DC, as they can't just toss their experience to the wind, unless there is a system implemented to allow for unpunished DCs in matches where a DC already happened. In other words, data collection should as closely match player experience as possible. (So either count DCs, or let us quit after someone else does please.)
Side tangent, feel free to ignore, its more for the thread in general
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I have seen 3 major DCs: Killer recognition, tilt-ragequit, and stop wasting my time. Killer recognition is simple, see the Nurse example above. Tilt-ragequit and stop wasting my time both have some overlap though. A turbo-tunnel off hook is a bit of both for example, as the Killer clearly didn't want the Survivor to play the game, so they go out on their own terms. An exclusive tilt-ragequit is failing a vault or mindgame or stun mid-chase. An exclusive stop wasting my time is bleeding out/slugging for the 4k.
Before MMR, I near exclusively 2-hook tango'd, or hooked each Survivor twice then let them go. I quit the game (in the hopes that it will get better in the future), but if I return, I will refuse to kill Survivors as long as MMR is as sweaty as it still is at this point. If I return, I will be 'stacking the deck' in terms of kill rates, where the Killer wins in reality, but the Survivors win on paper. If everyone learns this is the only way to have fun, then no stats will have meaning, and MMR will fail at its intended goal.
Similarly Ghostface is low in kill rates, but the 'why' is likely people play him as an M1 Killer instead of a macro 99 stalk all players style. (At least that's how I had significantly above average kill rates with him as my main.) If players start to play Ghosty 'right', would his kill rates raise significantly? Probably not, because too many newer players will still think "Ah cool Ghostface", and still play him as an M1 Killer.
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@Caiman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3615174#Comment_3615174
No, you don't have good reasons. You're just justifying your paranoia.
@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3612886#Comment_3612886
As far as queue times, yes you can do 'no-crossplay' and it also results in longer queues, but often better matches. That would be the purpose, to stop wasting time dodging lobbies and only get a legit lobby from the onset.
Fair enough for your experience with cheaters. I haven't been so lucky and the majority of my cheaters have been Anon gamers. Looking back at my unlisted YT vids I used for reports, it turns out Killer cheaters have been Anon 100% of the time, and Survivor cheaters have been Anon ~60% of the time. (To be fair, it is a small sample size for both, because I only record AFTER the first blatant cheating/suspicious act, leading me to miss many cheaters since they often cheat most obviously at the end.) That may just be my luck that cheaters = Anon in my games more that other's.
100% reported Killer cheaters Anon, 60% reported Survivor cheaters Anon. My reported cheaters aren't "justifyIng my paranoia". But sure, believe what you want.
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The funny thing is the 'perfect play' may be the worst play, as seen by abusing the Bots AI. The Bots know the exact pixel to make a safe Medium vault at, but you can force them to triple vault and burn the entity blocker by doing so. A human must take a risk of vaulting/not vaulting against the other human making the play to swing/hold-W/double-back. In such '50-50s' both the Survivor and the Killer can't both make the optimal play, so we would have to guess, or use guaranteed circumstances.
The problem here is also that the 'perfect play' on Survivor side can include stealth and pre-running along with perfect comms. Perfect play on Killer can result in no options for Survivors and going down instantly. With 'no-option' potential Killers like Nurse/Blight/Spirit or certain maps/usages of Knight/Artist/Dredge (among more), Killer would win. With 'fair' Killers aka where counterplay always exists, then Survivors win. Dredge is an example of where sometimes a perfect Killer play gets a hit, but other times counterplay exists for Survivor (between leave loop/play loop).
The problem with this concept though is no one consistently plays perfectly. No one has memorized every possible layout of gens/loops. Some Killers have powers where a power misuse has little to no downside (Blight/Oni), and some Killers are better at capitalizing on Survivor mistakes (Oni/Trapper/Hag/Ghosty snowballs). When Survivors aren't making mistakes, some of those setups won't pay off as well. When Survivors are making mistakes, you might have an easier time than a Killer who isn't punished for their own mistakes as harshly.
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The placement of snowmen and snow piles is super frustrating as movement Killers. I played Demo for a daily and every loop seemed to include one or the other blocking my normal gameplay, although that could just be negativity bias. I did only end with 1 full charge Shred for the daily progress, so I don't think it was entirely 'whining' and truly impacted my ability to use my power. I would put snowpiles as totem replacers (like the pumpkins) with a large snowflake stream trickling from above as a visual to lead people to them.
The snowball mechanic is neat, and I personally would like an alternate usage of Flashbang/Fire Crackers to work on a direct throw. The items are limited enough to not be an issue, but I would have the Killer immune to this specific form of blinding during pickup to prevent cheesy saves while facing walls.
The description of a few of the tomes was not entirely clear (for me) such as jumpscare snowmen vs non-jumpscare snowmen, but it was easy enough on a second pass.
Agreed with the other poster for both sides challenges shouldn't be required for 1 side's cosmetic. I do them all, but Killer mains and Surv mains both shouldn't be forced to play the other role to get their role's cosmetic. I thought the Halloween one had the Killer cosmetics down the Killer tomes, and the Survivor cosmetics down the Survivor tomes, but I may be misremembering.
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@Caiman said:
Anon Mode doesn't hide them from DbD's report system. Report them for cheating or abusive behavior and move on. Scrutinizing people in lobby as "suspicious" for being anonymous, when people have perfectly good reasons to be anonymous, is pure paranoia.
As stated in the OP, I don't want to have to be ready to record every match, and (not stated in the OP) not everyone can record easily. People can have fine reasons to go in Anon, but everyone else has equal if not better reasons to avoid someone who needs to hide behind a veil.
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As long as you are on steam, you can still have a 'private' 'public' profile. There are various levels of options from 'only-friends can see my details' to 'no one can comment on your profile' and more. I have my information public, but comments off. To be fair console may not have the same level of privacy that steam provides.
In my decades of gaming and tens of thousands of hours spent in online gaming, I have only received negative messages when I was (objectively) in the wrong and corrected, or we had a misunderstanding. Those follow up words cleared those misunderstandings, and resulted in more online friendships instead. To be fair, I have no demographical indicators visible, so no could target me for being black/white, gay/straight, etc. Even then though, if someone is targeting your demos, that shows they have nothing of merit to say and can be laughed off as baby-rage.
Anon serves as a shield to act uncouth beyond a greater veil of anonymity, so people are encouraged to cheat or act as scummy as possible.
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@BugReporterOnly said:
That would cause queue times to be longer of everyone has it turned on. The cheaters I have had also don't use annon mode.
As far as queue times, yes you can do 'no-crossplay' and it also results in longer queues, but often better matches. That would be the purpose, to stop wasting time dodging lobbies and only get a legit lobby from the onset.
Fair enough for your experience with cheaters. I haven't been so lucky and the majority of my cheaters have been Anon gamers. Looking back at my unlisted YT vids I used for reports, it turns out Killer cheaters have been Anon 100% of the time, and Survivor cheaters have been Anon ~60% of the time. (To be fair, it is a small sample size for both, because I only record AFTER the first blatant cheating/suspicious act, leading me to miss many cheaters since they often cheat most obviously at the end.) That may just be my luck that cheaters = Anon in my games more that other's.
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Before MMR I had the most fun playing Ghosty with Devour Hope and Undying. I could only kill with the Mori, or if they cleansed the totems before I got a single Mori, then I could kill each person who cleansed a totem (only if I knew who most likely cleansed it). If I got a Mori kill and they cleansed both totems, the remaining 3 got to walk. My rule was 'I need a photo of everyone', so that meant if you photobombed someone else's Mori it was a secret survival technique and I'd let you go. It was still possible to have fun like that a little bit into early lax MMR, but now too many matches are nothing but sweatfests.
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@Tsulan said:
But they are both on the same page. 2 survivors hiding and not doing anything is a situation where the killer can´t progress the game.
Do you know how many lockers exist on a map? The survivors could constantly switch lockers and even if the killer checks every single locker, the survivors could just hide in one he already checked. Thats keeping the game hostage and is bannable.
3 genning isn´t holding the game hostage. As both the survivors and the killer can progress the match one way or another.
The sad thing is the rules are too lax in dealing with people breaking the intention of the rule, but not the letter of it. As Killer, I can purposely bleed people out to ensure I waste as much of their time as possible, or even bleed them for 3m59s then hook them to rub salt in the wound. As Survivor, as long as I tap a gen once every 9m59s then I technically haven't broken the rules, and similarly can waste the Killer's time. Both are clearly being jerks for the sake of being a jerk, yet neither are punished.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3612784#Comment_3612784
I dont think i understand your math, there are not 2 more 100's ... it only have 4 tokens, meaning it can max give 4x 25%
If you want we can try and test DMS in a custom together ?
As for 3v1, it depends on the gen situation.. at 5 gens sure, perhaps 4 also. 3 gens and less i would say survivors still have a good chance.
Yeah, you are right with the Obsession. I cant remember if i used to pair it with nemisis or some other perk to change Obsession.
When I say 2 more 100s, those were bolded, to indicate they are the total regressed value, and the bold to show still higher than 15 per hook. The 6 more 100s are unbolded, so they are less than the 105+. I was trying to be space efficient instead of typing
'25/50/75/100/100/100/100/100/100/100/100/100' - The number is the total regression the perk granted compared to
'15/30/45/60 /75 /90 /105/120/135/150/165/180' - Being old PR's total regression numbers.
Essentially what I am saying regarding PR is that you get regression during the point where Killer is weakest and in most need of regression, the start. The fewer Survivors, the lower the chance of anyone getting out.
3v1 in general means Surv 4 is dead. If Surv 1 gets hooked, then Surv 2 has to attempt a rescue while Surv 3 is in chase. That leaves no Survivors to repair gens, which makes it a death spiral for Surv team. If Survs 1&2 attempt to pump gens instead of heal post-hook, then they also risk going down all the quicker if the Killer drops chase on Surv 3. Also they likely will have ~2-3 gens remaining at that time, which means they need a hefty chunk of time to not be forced to rescue Surv 3 when they inevitably go down in chase (assuming the Killer didn't swap to chase Surv 1 or 2).
As far as DMS custom lobby, I don't care enough to test. If I'm wrong so be it, and we can drop it in this thread under the assumption you are correct. I am fairly certain PR can DMS combo, but I won't bring it up again, as it isn't the focal point of my posts.
The point of my original post was that most of the listed 'nerfed' Killer perks had their strength shifted, and when playing into the new strengths they are (imo) stronger than before. I would easily take Ruin/DS/Calm Spirit/Thana to all be their pre-6.1 forms, although I personally prefer Pop and PR's current iterations. I have been consistent in saying (most of) the perk nerfs in 6.1 were mostly bad/misguided, especially since they all encouraged healthier gameplay.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3612745#Comment_3612745
- Changes are as i described, why dont you look it up before arguing it is not?
With the old PR one survivor hooked 3 times could give 45% regression if you hooked them 3 times, thats 180% in total, New PR is 25% for one survivor with a total at 100%, thats 80% more regression with the old one.
Old
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/D43YRXKU807A/image.png
New
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/FHCHF47UPSKZ/image.png
DMS dont work with PR now. - Go test it, i did because i thought it did, you have to manually push people off gens.
Old
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/IP9LEB85F49G/image.png
New
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/ZQKZ2XFLMVIU/image.png
Now im not posting the rest, look it up here : https://deadbydaylight.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Unique_Killer_Perks
If a Killer is tunneling out a Survivor and needs the extra help, I'm sorry but that has no need to be supported. The act of tunneling in and of itself is such a free win against soloq lobbies that I assume the Killer player has enough self-respect to at least attempt to spread hooks to express their skill instead of taking the easy low hanging fruit.
With a self-respecting player in mind, everything I said regarding PR stands true. Apologies for not clarifying self-respect among all players. I believed that was covered in the '3v1 is a free win' styled statement, as that would cover the unmentioned 3/3/0/0 and 3/2/1/0 '6 hook' cases.
Old PR vs new PR would stand to be (bolded for better) 15/30/45/60/75/90/105/120/135/150/165/180 | 25/50/75/100/(2 more 100s)/(6 more 100s). Like I said, better 1-6 hooks, worse 7-12. If you need gen regression on the 10th-12th hook... well I just don't know what game you are playing. If a Killer needs gen regression in 3v1 (attainable with the current 3/1/1/1 6 hook spread, or attainable as the 7th hook from a 2/2/1/1 spread), then I'm afraid their skill is so lacking that words and tutorials cannot help them, without them putting in a Doctorate level of work put in.
As far as DMS, I stayed on the gen in a soloq game earlier this week when PR procced and DMS activated (more accurately it was the first hook of the match, so I always test staying on the gen to gauge the Killer's perks). So I tested it, and it worked. I don't know if it is bugged to work in this event patch, or you are unaware that people can let go before the hook (which people did before it got nerfed from 45->30s, and still do if they care to try hard enough).
Also with DMS it appears we are talking different 'old'. 3.6 DMS that you linked is also arguably weaker than the current version since it only worked on Obsession being hooked. I was talking about the 5.5 DMS that you omitted, because I believed this conversation to be the immediate rough past changes, and only using old Moris as an extreme example. (Strangely not met with old Keys/Hatch for comparison as well, as they were both majorly planned to be nerfed in the same announcement [but knowing BHVR that means it takes at least a year aka 4.4.1 Mori and 5.3 Hatch nerfs respectively].)
The only reason PR didn't work with DMS was, as I alluded to in the prior post, PR lost the scream feature. Once the scream feature of PR was brought back in (because of the Merciless Storm+PR combo), it re-enabled PR+DMS, negating the entire purpose of the removal of the scream in the first place.
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I largely find the new MMR to be strictly worse also, to the point I've hard dropped playing solo (Surv/Killer) except to farm the winter tomes. I have nearly the exact same winrate (win most Killer matches, lose [, or rather die in] most soloq Survivor matches), but I'm not having fun while doing it anymore.
I don't sweat until I am sweat upon, and since more people are queueing up intending to sweat, I run into nothing but sweat on both sides. I don't find back to back Nurse/Blight games enjoyable. I don't find full lobbies of Syringes enjoyable. Sadly that has been the dominant experience for me since they made the change.
Since I spent the auric cells on this season's pass, I'll probably finish it out, but I have no intention of getting the next one. I probably won't even return until my friends start playing again, and they mostly stopped 3-6 months ago.
You can't just bring fun perks to have a remotely decent time. The MMR makes matches so sweaty now that the meta is 'enforced' as a means to even be able to play the game.