mizark3
mizark3
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3612171#Comment_3612171
Well, Survivors got a lot more than he mentioned if you really wanna go back.
SH: Pain Res - Nerfed (it now just have 4 tokens)
DMS - Nerfed (and no longer works with SH:PR)
Pop - Nerfed (instead of 25 % of its total progression, its current progression)
COB - Nerfed
Corrupt intervention - Nerfed
Eruption - Nerfed
NOED - Nerfed
And before patch 1.5.3 - Ebony Memento Moris did not require any hook states.
Pain Res is a buff 1-6 hooks, and a nerf 7-12 hooks. At 6 hooks you either have 2/2/1/1, which means you have 2 death hook Survs, or 3/1/1/1, which means you have essentially won since you are in a 3v1. 3v1 is so stacked in the Killers favor, and both scenarios if it isn't possible to win as Killer then old PR wasn't giving you anymore regression.
DMS got temporarily nerfed to not work with PR, but it near immediately got rebuffed to work with it again. PR and Merciless was apparently too 'oppressive' so they instead brought back the problem child combo. (That isn't even bringing up UW combined with it now.)
Pop is also arguably a buff, as it rewards good usage more, and penalizes bad usage. Kicking a 25% gen instead of taking a chase is most often the foolish move, and the shift in Pop's strength accentuates that. Pop is stronger anytime the 4th piston is active, so that means any time someone has a gen ~67-89s completed. That means when you hook and pop it, the Survivors will likely foolishly rush for that gen in a sunk-cost fallacy train of thought instead of healing, causing an easier down+hook+rePop. Easy snowballs into easy victories (at least in most of my games).
CoBruption(+OC) was busted beyond belief, as a spacebar was the only thing needed to win matches. Even then, Eruption still deals 10% max regression per gen kicked, which means you can easily hit 2-3 gens for a better PR/Pop, and know if they plan on sticking to the gen or leaving it due to the aura.
Corrupt is fair to say it got nerfed, but that needs to be measured in comparison to what Survivor got nerfed. DS dropping to 3s near deleted the perk, DH getting nearly deleted similarly, and old CoH was nearly a SWF free win just as CoBruption+OC was for Killer.
NOED I feel is a mixed bag however. It causes people to stay and risk a cleanse or unhook, which often leads to 2-3 extra kills beyond the person already on hook. At the same time, it makes it possible to find and cleanse it in a timely manner to potentially get a 4 escape. Since it can shift 1ks to 0ks or 4ks (and everywhere in-between), I'd say it mostly shifts it in favor of Killer gaining up to 3 at the cost of potentially losing up to 1. +3-1 is still net +2.
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They have already been significantly nerfed from prior levels of strength, to the point I honestly don't take issue with them anymore.
Syringe was nerfed from a personal 16s base to 24s base. That is on top of burning the medkit entirely, so no reuses with Built To Last.
BNPs also were significantly nerfed from 22.5 gen seconds to 10 gen seconds. Technically if a gen is regressed multiple times it can still be a buff, but you need something like 1.5 gens worth of regression AFTER the BNP is used to be equal to the old 22.5s. That being opposed to being able to use the old BNP when Tinkerer would show up and bypass that entirely.
On top of all of that, Nurse and Blight both still exist in such a broken state that Survivors need equally broken tools to compete. I would gladly have a separate queue for no Blight/Nurse/Syringe/BNP if it came to it, but as is, you need nukes to fight nukes, and you can never know what armaments your opponent(s) is(are) bringing.
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@ad19970 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3605325#Comment_3605325
I don't know, both as playing killer and survivor I haven't really seen any problem with most of the loops and tiles on those maps. Good survivors can still make use of a lot of these tiles. But killers definitely do have fair counterplay at more of the tiles, it's not all about getting the pallet dropped and then having to break pallets. Which is a good thing because of how fast gens can be repaired.
We need more maps like the new ones, or the newly added macmillan maps for example, if you ask me. As they actually allow for more counterplay on the killers side.
I do agree that random geometry obstructing the paths of survivors is frustrating and shouldn't be in the game.
Agree to disagree on new maps/tiles in general. (Although I would agree more with you if you said 'efficient' Survivors instead of 'good', as soloq is nearly never 'efficient' even if there are individually 'good' players.)
I also disagree on gen speed in general, as leveraging pressure is the main way to make gens slow down. The Killer's skill in chase and setting up a snowball is directly opposed with the Survivor's skill in awareness(for stealth Killers)/chase and reacting to snowball setups (healing injuries instead of pumping gens, leaving to rescue for hooks earlier for the time needed for stealth if need be, breaking a potential 3 gen early, and so on). 1 person on hook provides 75% gen slowdown (hooked->healed, unhook->heal, chased, working gen). Being skilled in micro/macro provides 2.5x Pentimento, and that's arguably the best slowdown in the game.
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While I think main is a bit too strong, and the outskirts are maybe a bit too big and unprotected, I thoroughly enjoy the variety the map provides. Not every map needs to be a carbon copy of one another, and the risk of a basement in main heavily disincentivizes going down there at main.
If it has to be adjusted, maybe squish in the outskirts to be a bit closer, but keep the same window/tile/pallet counts (strengthening the outskirts). Then instead of the 2 strong windows at main, have it RNG pick 1 of the windows to be open, and the other boarded up. Alternatively, have an opening in the wall next to the window that weakens 1 of them (RNG again). The greenhouse main window could have the breakable wall slightly closer to the window with a ramp still alongside the building. The opposite stairwell window might need the side wall removed to weaken it, but I'm not sure how to not accidentally make it easier to run from the opposite side instead.
Also like others have mentioned, 2 gens in main make it a 3-gen nightmare. Make those 2 gens in main mutually exclusive and its fine.
Overall I love the map for variety sake, but I can see the deadzones and main being a problem for both sides. That's the fun of it! Both sides have a potential advantage unlike other maps like Badham where only Killers groan, or Midwich where only Survivors groan. I can still turn the size of the map to a Survivor disadvantage as Killer, and I can run the Killer at main with an easier than average time as Survivor. When I play both sides I can win or at least have fun.
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@ad19970 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3604719#Comment_3604719
Fair enough. You might be unlucky with the RNG on Rancid, but I do agree that map does spawn too few pallets on average.
As far as Nostromo and Toba goes, I just can't share those viewpoints. I do get that those maps spawn with some tiles that are weak, but I also always see enough tiles that survivors can work well with. I definitely wouldn't call all the main tiles of that map weak in any way, especially the jungle jyms, even if they do weirdly spawn the pallet and window on the same side. In fact, there is one tile unique to Nostromo that can spawn a pretty nasty window.
The pallet in the main building is also very strong in my experience, never once did I need a stun to get usage out of that pallet.
When it comes to safety, Toba and Nostromo are on the lower end of maps, but that is needed, considering how fast gens can still go. Survivors shouldn't be safe at a bunch of tiles where the killer is forced to break pallets and that's it. That's why maps like Badham Preschool are so problematic.
The tiles that spawn on the space maps include the normal L-Ts, Short and Long wall JGs, 4 lanes, the new pseudo short/long wall JG (that spawns both on autohaven and macmillan as well), but they also have the bizarre worthless loops diluting the spawning pool. I think I've seen a 4 lane where the pallet and window are on the same side. Another is similar to the Ormond maze tile with a middle window on the south and the pallet on the east or west, but they deleted the maze wall portion of the middle that made the tile playable for Surv. They also have a bunch of weird tree branches and hooked walls (not actual hook hook, just something to catch someone running around it), so people get caught on the walls all the time even when looking ahead of them.
The middle Nostromo pallet may give a rotation or two to buy time, like all filler pallets, but the value for Survivor comes from standing and faking a drop for another rotation to buy more time. That isn't any stronger than any other filler pallet in the game. I will say most people don't have the timing down yet, as you are supposed to run the center console then the small wall when you won't make another rotation, so most people get hit greeding another loop around the center console or don't risk anything and insta-drop it. Again though, most my soloq Survs insta-drop it and the Killer simply walks around and hits them before they can reach anything.
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Don't forget releasing unfinished features! (Player Cards) That is also more important than 2 number tweaks! /s
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@jamally093 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3603934#Comment_3603934
I think it's more because the fact that getting an item from it is random so they would have to temporarily update the perk to remove the chance of getting flashlights. Until the next update so it's basically update the game and change very little to maybe one perk and few quick minor things or disable it while working on the more major bugs.
I understand the why, I'm just saying the opportunity cost of the dumb-fun value of Dramaturgy compared to passing up a 'real' exhaustion perk, as well as Flashlights are still lootable in chests. Dramaturgy only has a 1/20 chance to get a clicky (1/4 for the item roll, and medkit/toolbox/map/key all competing for 1/5 odds of clicky, so 1/20). The odds I feel are low enough combined with not disabling chests all together, so it just seems silly.
Now that I look at it, Appraisal is an even more odd choice, as that gives a bonus search, but not a guaranteed anything. By that logic Coin Offerings should be killswitched as well.
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@ad19970 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3604241#Comment_3604241
Rancid Arbattoir is the only map I can think of that spawns too few pallets. All the other maps that were changed still spawn more than enough windows and pallets. I can't think of any other map that has been butchered.
Also, in my experience Nostromo Wreckage and Toba Landing also still spawn more than enough usable windows, that's for sure. They do also spawn a fair amount of weak windows, that's true, but there are enough good windows as well.
I have been playing a lot of DBD recently, and have not seen any map butchered in any way, except maybe for Rancid, admittedily, and even that map can be rng based. But saying that Rancid only spawns with 2-3 pallets is such an exaggeration as well.
To be clear I didn't say it spawns with 2-3 pallet in total. I said it spawns 2-3 pallets on the opposite side of shack (most of the time). My most common spawns are the Harvester (no pallet), the Jungle Gym in the corner's pallet (if it isn't an L-T wall), a tent pallet somewhere, and if you are lucky a circular hay pallet (as opposed to the long H hay pallet) on the opposite side of the Harvester from the Jungle Gym. So I guess that's more accurately 1-3 pallets. Also I don't know what is with my luck on that map, but I nearly always get a hill on that side of the map (as both Killer and Surv), which does nothing for Survivors other than hinder unhook attempts.
As far as Nostromo and Toba they mostly get the new Jungle Gyms, which are weak at best, or confusing and free Killer hits at worse. I think they often spawn pallets and windows on the same side of the loop, so that severely limits their usefulness, and leaves the opposite side as a complete deadzone mid loop. Even Nostromo's unique structures are basically a free hit for Killer. The secret room window is a free hit, the middle side window is a delayed hit (since they can't reach another loop or go back up to the window due to the stagger), the main pallet only prevents a hit with a stun same as both side pallets (so they only have value standing and faking a drop), and the window near the back gen is essentially a z-wall window. The small crashed ship has only one of those stun only pallets (no windows), but it is even less value as you have to approach from the back end to allow for the stun to get you to another loop. The main strength of Nostromo and Toba is how easy it is to hide, because no pallets or windows provide value.
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@ad19970 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3603924#Comment_3603924
I fail to see how most maps are now butchered? In what universe? They still have enough pallets and windows for survivors to use, that's for sure.
Yep, farm maps spawning logic certainly not changed for the worse. A literal triangle of gens and no pallet or window within that triangle. Nope, perfectly fine map design right here. /s
This was just one particularly egregious example. Nearly every Rancid Abattoir is pretty much this bad by default. So you ask which universe? This one. I guess you must play 1 match a month to not see this butchering of maps.
Also the majority of newer maps don't even place usable windows. Near every window on Toba's Landing and Nostromo Wreckage are as useful as the window near the one exit gate on The Game. It seems we either get the equivalent of Z-wall windows, or triple vault windows, and nothing in-between. The triple vault equivalent windows eventually get fixed, but the Z-wall equivalent windows are left to fester.
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The greater crime here is Dramaturgy getting disabled. Gosh-darn game banning fun.
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In old DBD, Killers wanted Survivors to use Stealth because it was the weaker option. There was no entity block on windows, and you could blend in with the dark environments mid chase even.
With the map changes butchering most maps (see Rancid Abattoir with only 2-3 pallets on the non-Killer shack 50% of the map in about half my games), Survivors want to use Stealth because chase is the weaker option. What is the new farm tent and 2 short boxes loop supposed to do against any Killer?
Plus all the stealth perks are in nerfed states (other than Lightweight), with Iron Will being worthless against headphone users, and Calm Spirit slowing actions down. Calm Spirit is sadly a required anti-sweatlord perk like Unbreakable used to be, due to Ultimate Weapon. The problem there though, is UW needs the full 4 Survs to bring CS to be properly countered.
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Tunneling helps the Killer in both contexts. When a Surv is tunneled out before 1-2 gens, it is a free win for Killer. When Survivors 'tunnel' gens (by either grouping, or going for the recently PR'd/PGTW'd gen), they give the Killer a juicier PGTW target/easier intel, and group up to throw the game with snowballed pressure.
Since 'tunneling gens' is something Survivors do to themselves, they are the perpetrator and the victim, so they are doing it to themselves. When the Killer makes sure no one in the lobby other than themselves has 5 digits under BP, then the Killer is the perpetrator and the victims are their opponents.
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For finding gens, there is always the bathroom gen, but the others follow a pattern. The upper floor gens will always spawn on the clockwise side of the big closed doors. The lower floor gens will always spawn on the counter-clockwise side of the big closed doors. For example, if the gen spawns in the 2nd floor with the long drop, the door will be facing the stairwell up to that long drop. If the gen is on that same room but on the first floor instead, the door will block off the side path, but the Freezer is still accessible.
As far as which side is favored, I would say overall it leans more towards Killer than Survivor. If both sides don't know where gens are, then Killer wins because gens can't get progressed. If both sides can find gens, then Killer can approach and get corner hits or burn the pallet, then on subsequent approaches the Survivor can't reach the next pallet in time. Technically SWFs can win with comms, but even those can be faked out if the Killer clues in soon enough to fake leaving/approaching to force a false callout and get a free hit.
It basically is a macro skill only map, which can understandably be not very engaging for either side. If the Killer has too much gen regression, then Survivors can be unable to pump gens before running out of pallets. If the Survivors burn pallets while being gen inefficient, they will be unable to pump the gens with the remaining time before their death.
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I understand sunk cost fallacy when it comes to gens. Once you've had a gen at 90% PR'd down to 40%, you still want to finish the gen. The better option in many cases is to stop regression after the PR and find a better gen. I have killed so many Survivors and had so many soloq teammates die when the Survivor tries to finish a regressed gen when they still have at least 2 other gens, and 1 of them is often a safe one to work on.
This is part of the reason I consider the current version of Pop (30% current) stronger than old (25% max), as people are more likely to throw when you get them in a regression loop with new Pop when the gen is more than 50% completed. A 90% gen gets bumped down to ~60% (from the 30% + the basekit 2.5%), and they attempt to finish the gen instead of healing. That causes a down for another pop for another throw of not healing.
There are two main ways that I can think of 'fixing' this. (1) Make it easier to find another gen after yours has been regressed. (2) Set a max regression per gen of 100%, so that way you never have to do a singular gen more than 'twice'. With a regression limit, you could pop each gen 3 times and never worry about hitting this cap, it is only meant to stop excessive regression on a lone gen. There are some issues that can crop up with both (sending a Survivor to a death hook Surv's gen, or unintentional 3 gen by Killer getting punished, or Survivors failing skillchecks probably shouldn't count towards this limit outside of maybe Overcharge's bonus amount [so the gen regresses 14% but it only counts 4% towards the limit]. heck, regression could even be limited by the 100% per Survivor's progress so that a duo'd gen's max is 200%, and quad gen's max is 400%, but that would require tracking of who progressed the gen by how much.), but it mostly would probably be for the better.
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@HugTechLover said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3599229#Comment_3599229
That defeats the fun of blight. Who the hell wants to play m1 blight?
My assertion was that Blight's raw Mobility is strong enough to put him in the top half of Killers, and that nerfing his add-ons or power in any way wouldn't make him "weak or unplayable".
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@NekoGamerX said:
why people want all killers weak or unplayable?
Run STBFL Blight, only using M2 for Mobility and Pallet Breaks. Heck, do it without STBFL. Heck, do it without Pallet Breaks too. Even then, he is still probably in the top half only using M2 for Mobility alone.
As far as his add-ons, I hope they model all of his add-ons off of his Purple non Alch-Ring add-ons. Those are all very fun and well designed, without just turning him into a 'win-more' machine with speed or insta-pallet destruction or token regen.
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CA's are most certainly a good thing, but I personally don't quite agree on endgame in the same way. I can easily hit a would be rescuer instead of the person of hook, so the justification is too slim for me to recognize. As Killer I can also simply play better in the early and/or midgame instead. Endgame shouldn't be the only chance for me to get a kill if I suck at the game, nor should it be gifted to me on a silver platter by nature of it being endgame.
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I mean, isn't that obvious from its face? 6.1 deleted balanced and fair perks to shake things up, and what rose in its place? Degen 3gen kick combo, tunneling at 5 gens nearly half of (my soloq) matches to this day, and more.
I agree with the basekit changes of 6.1 (other than anti-tunnel Endurance not stacking, which was shortsighted to be kind, idiotic to be honest), but the perk changes were the worst batch the game has ever seen. We got nerfs to Pharmacy, Calm Spirit, Thanatophobia for no reason.
Heck, Thana got nerfed so hard that the best users of it, now are instead the 'only' users of it, when they could have tuned it down to 4.5% per Surv at max rank to keep the additional gen time (additively) equal pre and post 80s->90s gen change.
Even the Pop and PR are arguably in better positions than they used to be, as Pop gets more regression as long as the 4th piston moves (the only gens you should probably kick anyways), and new PR gives you an advantage hooks 1-6, and old gave an advantage hooks 7-12. With 6 hooks, you can either have all 4 PR'd with a kill, or all 4 PR'd with 2 on death hook, ready to be killed. A 3v1 is a free win for Killer, so that is just an easy win in my matches.
Hopefully they simply roll back half of the nerfs to Ruin and DS, as 200% (remove on death still) and 5s stun (disabled in endgame still) are both more than useful and fair enough. Also I hope they revert Thana and Calm Spirit's nerfs as well. Thana back to 5% (or the adjusted 4.5%) per Surv, and Calm Spirit no longer slowing down totems/chests.
(Personally I would also go as far as to have anti-tunnel still function in endgame [on both DS and OTR], as the Survs still have to open the gate with a CA which opens them up to being killed, or they must be rescued, which means the Killer can easily get the new hook on the rescuer instead. Plus it is so dumb to be hard tunneled off hook only for someone to pop the final gen seconds before you DS/OTR the Killer and die because they did the right thing. I'd even take an 'anti-tunnel features don't work off of Kobes/Deliv unless it is an anti-camp Kobe' in that trade if I had to.)
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Can we at least have an option to remove the player cards entirely and rescale to UI so we can actually see the important things (Perks, items, add-ons, offerings)? There is nothing of value currently being provided when there aren't even like 5 starter items or a P10 Banner/P11 Profile picture type of unlock.
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@FriendlyKiller said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/LYGI903TSV55/20231129-171434.jpg
Sorry for the crappy image quality. So I got home and decided to give Chuck a F***. My build was haunted grounds pentimento plaything and undying. Hardly meta, but the survivors gave up after messing about failing to get sabos and saves. OK fine I get it.
This is on Midwich BTW. After the first survivor was sacrificed and another had afk crows I figured screw it, just leave. I had pizza. It was a Jets all meaty deep dish with turbo crust. And extra cheese.
7 minutes later, no gens done. I am still in this game it's been close to 20 minutes of them refusing to leave. I am afk in basement, they refuse to go.
Development team this has happened before. Survivors may be a-holes but for the most part they're not stupid. These are the same teams that were whipping my Artist and Nurse's ass a week ago. The 13th has not hit, there has been no rank reset and I'm gold 2 atm.
Make the killer seem like they overperform upon release. Get them nerfed. Continue to enjoy your easy game. I mean c'mon man Chucky just came out who you think you're going to face, Trapper?
Development team please don't take this obvious bait.
P.S sorry for the long winded message, it took me a while to write. I'm still in this game at the conclusion of writing and editing this post. They must be getting impatient, they're vaulting pallets now. I'm not budging.
The only match I gave up since Chucky came out was the one where I got sandbagged from a teammate and the Killer refused to chase/injure/hook the sandbagging player. Simple stuff like this is far more likely the case than a kill rate conspiracy.
Also Grade reset has absolutely nothing to do with MMR/matchmaking.
Also 6 hook states and a death at 5 gens, and you wonder why someone would give up? They didn't have a chance to begin with.
@H2H said:
Given what happened with xenomorph, they’ll almost certain get the nerfs they’re demanding.
You mean the Killer getting needlessly buffed from PTB to Live and then getting reverted to the fair and un-complained about PTB values? Also with the largest problems of Alien getting free hits from Survivors attempting to engage in the turret counterplay still being intact even after the major change timeframe?
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Only a handful of matches as Surv so far, but it is far too easy to proxy-camp and get free wins currently. You can't see him, but he can see around all the corners. Combined with on-demand stealth, too many Killers just get a hit on rescuer 1, then Hidey-Ho camp out a free hit into hook trade on rescuer 2. That basically means free win against soloq, and only SWF actually has a chance to play against him. Even with a hook trade though it is too easy for him to turbo-tunnel post-hook.
If he is in Hidey-Ho, then you can't tell where he is at all when he uses it to approach (maybe footsteps are bugged?). Every time it only showed me his fake footsteps in the open, and not (fake steps) through walls or where he is approaching from. Mid loop it seems fine though.
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Sadly I am not. I am Zarina/Felix mostly, and had a Cheryl daily (but since I liked the OG Silent Hills 1-3 I bought most of their skin lines).
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@pigslittlepet said:
What important info isnt visible? Perks offerings names, all there.
The joke is that the information is shrunken beyond reason for a mechanic that isn't even properly implemented (since no one has any profile stuff yet). Hence why in the picture I shrunk the information even further to bring attention to the absurdity of the bad change. The useful information shouldn't have to suffer (be shrunk) to accommodate space for nothingness.
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The funny and sad thing is I think Plague already serves the 'machinegun ranged attack' niche better than Trickster, with far better macro benefits on top of it. Green puke 'damages' the Survivor by filling an infection meter, has numerous projectiles to hit with, and instead of decaying over time it builds up over time. On top of all of that you can spread the pain with no effort on your part with infected gens (also causing immense soloq slowdown since people refuse to touch infected gens), no ammo count, less slowdown (4.4 held puke), and probably the most busted part, no injury speedboost with Plague. Then, on top of all of that, you can get Red puke and have the first 'machinegun bullet' from a spray cause an injury/down.
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@Perrin3088 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3535570#Comment_3535570
it seems glaringly obvious to me why the killer perks would be hidden.. namely.. there are ways to communicate outside of game, and you could cheat by telling your 'team' his perks so they could plan against it, instead of having to figure it out.
And I know you said soloQ.. but remember, before SwF was standard, it was very very Very common for people to time their queues to soloQ together, so it's an irrelevant argument, esp with so many TTV players, you could easily communicate to them via their twitch what perks the killer has.
It's a simple anti-cheat device for a known problem going back 5+ years. if you are truly invested in why the killer was moving so fast.. spectate and see if it happens to others he's hunting? and after more research you'll find the match is over and the perks are revealed..
realistically, I wish this game had a history button that would save the last 5-10 matches, so you could look back and see the perks without having to wait, esp if you get a troll killer that tunnel/camps you down because s/he's idea of fun is spoiling another persons fun, while sabotaging their own success in the hopes of others altruism to give him a chance instead of winning.
People would only time their queues back before SWF was a feature, so wouldn't it track that once SWF was a fully implemented feature that only SWF would have perks hidden in postgame? I mean heck, who today will take the time to queue at the same time as their friends to hope you get in the same lobby? I play with a variety of skill level of friends, so due to MMR we could never play together without the SWF feature. The most current stats are that 60% of Survivors are soloq, which means 0 outside communication in the current environment. It has been at least 4 years (patch 3.2/Sep 2019 for modern SWF, or 1.03/July 2016 for the original SWF) since SWF was added as a feature, which means we are at least 4 years(, or 3 years at the minimum, given a year delay to add the feature) late to show soloq postgame info.
The TTV argument is a joke. The Killer can easily streamsnipe on their phone, even if they don't have a second screen/monitor, so why would only after a Survivor dying matter if the TTV got to know the perks? The Killer can have perma wallhacks, and we are worried about the 1 Survivor out of 4 having perk knowledge (that they already likely saw used mid match). That is not even remotely close to the same information level given. I mean heck, even if everyone in the lobby is streamsniping the TTV, that means its still a 3v1 with wallhacks for Killer. Like 'oh darn they know I have NWO, but I know where they are at all times'.
Just spectate I can understand has good intentions, but most times it can only lead to greater frustrations and wasted time than the alternative. When you intend on spectating to find out the perks, and you see the Feng Self-Caring into sloppy for the 12th time, or the Mikaela who trolled the team and got them killed being given hatch, that is going to destroy what little sanity you have remaining, especially when you could have just seen the perks and add-ons, said 'huh ok', and moved on. Simple solution, no real downsides, and NOT implementing it makes the new player experience leagues worse... I don't have any clue why perks and add-ons are still hidden for soloq. Also you can't progress tomes/rifts without playing, so that incentivizes actually moving on to the next match ASAP.
Match history is the only alternative other than revealing the perks that I can agree with, and honestly I have no clue why this isn't a thing. When you had a blatant cheater match and instinctively click continue, you can't go back and report them. This would solve both problems quite easily, and it would also provide some nice QoL to know whether or not you actually lost or won the last 10 matches.
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I don't remember the game I first played that had this, but it had subtitles change size based on distance for sounds. That is ideally what both Survivor and Killer would get as an option to show up in a corner of your choosing (or wherever). That way deaf/hard of hearing gamers can have the same information as everyone else, and in the case of (frequently) bugged audio, you have a guaranteed functional 'sound' in the form of the subtitles.
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The purpose of the 6.1 changes weren't to make good perk changes, that is important to keep in mind, they were made to shake up the Meta. When you look at many other perks like Pop and PR functioning nearly exactly the same in terms of efficacy now as before 6.1, you can see how misguided those 6.1 (perk) changes were. Something was popular but fair? Nerf it! Something was niche? Also Nerf it! Popularity shifting was the only goal of the changes, not sensible balance. Could they have buffed Solidarity to be on par with We'll Make It, or Poised to be on par with Distortion, or Beast of Prey to be usable? Yes. Did they? No that would take effort and make sense.
I am generally in favor of the basekit changes to 6.1, just not the perk changes. (Also the Endurance rule change was foolish at best, idiotic at worst, and at the very least make BT/OTR not provide Deep Wounds while also removing collision to prevent bodyblocks.)
So was there 'sense' in Ruin's Nerf? Did it make it fairer? Nope. Did it make it less popular? Most certainly yes. So by the intention of the patch, it was not senselessly nerfed. By any reasonable view however, it was butchered senselessly (alongside all of the other 6.1 perk victims like DS and Thana and Calm Spirit and so on).
@MB666 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/397880/was-the-hex-ruin-nerf-senseless
was overnerfed because SURVIVORS didnt wanted to adapt , the same happen when thana was buffed (WHEN MEDKITS WERE POWERFUL BTW) Alongside CoH.People were like nah 22% too strong RED BAR = BAD , even when overall value was 8 to 14 max seconds extra to a gen if survivor didnt wanted to heal. even when they could heal themself within 8 seconds using a green medkit with some basic charge perks/addons. cough cough
Pentimento is 33% and people seem happy with ithttps://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/B6CG41CEH25S/image.png
And now look at thana - the only killer viable to use it is plague which is boring as hell , because you expect that same perk on 99% of your plague matches. (AND ONCE AGAIN IS STILL 20% BUT PEOPLE ARENT CRYING NOW? I DONT UNDERSTAND SURVIVORS.)
Don't make this tribal. Both Survivors and Killers had perfectly good and fair perks nerfed for no good reason, only popularity. They could have buffed garbage perks to be competitive to the nerfed perks, and instead they just nerfed the fun and fair perks while buffing unearned regression and many other foolish perk buffs. It would be like if they buffed Solidarity to heal all other allies across the map alongside yourself, even mid-chase.
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@TeleportingTurkey said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3591835#Comment_3591835
i like how low mmr killers who play against babies think that "just keep everyone injured" is a valid counterplay.
Gosh darn, my MMR must be so low with 74% of my Killer matches ending with a victory before the gens pop. Yep, no way that nearly 3/4s of my matches ending in a 3k+hatch or 4k, before we even entertain the notion of endgame, is low MMR. I like how even lower MMR Killers who are more babies than their Survivor opponents think that they can't 'just keep everyone injured' and haven't learned to improve yet (and they only need the FTP+BU player to be injured).
When I said I lacked skill, I mean I lose more than I would like to, thus I seek to improve. I also lack raw reaction speed, but I typically make up for that with decision making. Taking a chase in a manner to get the pallet dropped quickest to break it to prep for a stronger later game for example.
@NerfDHalready said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3591835#Comment_3591835
it feels like such a chore having to explain why survivors being able to pick people up before the killer even gets out of wiping animation without any danger isn't a good idea but here we go.
before i start, you should keep in mind that dbd isn't just low level soloq teams and you can't argue about perks' potentials based on the skill levels of such teams.
so i don't want to get deep into each one of them, i'll compare this combo to old coh instead. if the killer was stomping, the perk didn't seem that broken. you could snuff boons, keep gens and hook people in a match you are stomping on survivors and after that point keeping blessing totems was throwing. but, BUT, when you were in a match as a losing killer against it, there was nothing you could do. there was no establishing pressure, you couldn't go around and snuff totems. chase people instead? no, because if people you were chasing ever ran to a safe zone, they might as well be automatically healed because you can't afford chasing people around strong areas and that meant they could now go to the coh and heal for free, giving you zero pressure.
ftp bu is like this. it sure still can turn the tides around, but as a stomping killer you'll still have time to target the user or you can simply afford your chase being extended for absolutely no reason. losing killers is a different story. if your down you barely got at 2 gens get denied, what are you gonna do? now the killer can't even get the few hooks they could otherwise get and they lost the very slight chance to win the match.
(very shortly getting into the counterplay argument: you actually might not see that coming unlike how you base all your scenarios on. very often do i see survivors wandering around when i get my down and i generally have no clue they were there beforehand. even if you see that coming from a mile away, you can't go back and forth to scare or try to bait the user while chasing your target and lose distance and potentially lose opportunities to get the downing hit. unlike a flashlight/bang saver or even a duo with flip flop power struggle which basically makes the survivor unpickable, you have absolutely no counter (except tunnelling) against this if you are not, again, stomping on survivors and can keep them injured/hooked all the time. you have the choice to leave the survivor on the ground and have slug pressure instead if picking isn't a safe option, but with this combo you won't have a slug either. this is why i don't have an issue with buckle up by itself while people claim it's the problem, killer player still has agency.)
the game is survivor sided at high levels. we are NOT talking about potato tier soloq teams where the user actually takes free hits. playing lower tier killers at higher mmr whatsoever, you won't be stomping on anyone. even as high tier killers on some maps you might struggle. on top of that, noone is claiming they are the best killer player with the most skill and you are telling this combo which basically is an extra kick in the balls of a losing killer is fine because the losing killer could play better? killer has no right to choose in this situation (except tunnelling the user yes).
slightly mentioning points here, hook states aren't healable(?) meanwhile health states are, is legion op if 2 health states equal a hook state? and you are greatly underestimating the pressure a hooked survivor provides. about gen efficiency, a swf on comms will give info on about when they will go down and where. tunnelling the user shouldn't be a counterplay by the way :) if multiple people have this combo good luck, also.
sorry to join, i guess, but "it actually is impossible" against strong survivor teams that abuse this combo.
I only consider it without risk with Light Step personally, but then they had to sink 3 perks for something they can only do once a minute before they are even allowed to heal again. Overall the opportunity cost still seems advantageous to me for Killer (other than the previously mentioned death hook protection on final gen).
As far as differing skill levels go, I typically worry about the mode and mean experiences the most (or most common and average), and they have significant overlap in being roughly the same. This might be where we differ in the most important realm, as (skimming ahead).
I feel as though old CoH was vastly stronger, as it allowed for self-healing, so it didn't even run the risks normally associated with the grouping caused by FTP+BU or current CoH. Essentially old CoH was just busted imo, and the current CoH is perfect as a competitor with We'll Make It and Botany Knowledge, or times when it is better and times when it is weaker.
As you say, FTP+BU can turn things around, but that doesn't mean every match where it is equipped guarantees that successful turn-around. Just like how as solo-q Survivor, how you might put on DS or Unbreakable after being tunneled/slugged in one match, then you go 10 matches without it happening and then take it off and then finally get tunneled/slugged again. Basically the possibility of it working for me can only be evaluated with the rate of usage and success. As I said in the 2nd paragraph, if you only care about the highest potential, then we just disagree on what aspect we should be worried about.
(Skipping the parenthetical section unless you'd like me to reply to it.)
I understand at the tippy top level the game is Survivor sided, but the vast majority of normal matchmade games I find to be Killer sided, whether I'm playing Solo-q, Killer, or SWF (although to be fair my SWF are more memelords and not very skilled). I largely see Killer losses in my matches (again on both sides) as Killer mistakes. There is always something the Killer could have done instead to win, and when playing in my SWF it often is tunneling the 4th random or the weaker member of my SWF. I think any match where someone recognizes they could take a better action, refuses to take the better action or otherwise learn from that, deserves to lose. I shouldn't be able to drop 5 random pallets and win as Surv cuz I hit the spacebar, and Killer shouldn't make haphazard plays and win regardless. Wins should be earned through correct decision making.
What I was talking about in terms of group health states is the requirement for the injured Survs to sneak a hook rescue or sit on gens, otherwise they risk letting the Killer snowball and have 2 people on hook and force 2 rescue attempts or risk the first hooked Surv to lose an extra state from sitting on hook for too long. That is a different form a pressure that can be applied, and if you have intel perks (or knowledge of where the Survs were), you can intercept rescue attempts and make it take longer or not happen at all. I wouldn't quite say Legion is OP, but I would say people vastly underestimate Legion's strength. So when you are talking about the pressure of a hooked Surv, I am thinking after the FTP+BU is done with, if you have an extra injury on the table then they have a harder time and more pressure from that hook than before.
FTP+BU I don't see being remotely close to Blight/Nurse in terms of strength in both average cases and highest skill groups. So that's why I see it being fine as it is nowhere near another 'acceptable' level of strength.
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@AddanDeith said:
All he really needs is a fix for solid walls reveal bug. I play him once a week because of it, no more. I wish they never added regression to reveal, it should have stayed at instant reset.
Can't even count how many times my game was ruined by someone revealing me trough solid wall.
This is sadly 2 things. Latency, and the third person camera of Survivors.
You can hide behind a wall but since the reveal logic is client-sided (like Killer hit registration), you can get false hits, and VPNs actually artificially help.
The third person camera is somewhat annoying because you can't 'see' it, so it can be a nuisance hiding from it.
Unfortunately the best bet is to sink a bunch of hours into playing Ghosty to 'feel' them out. I've played Ghosty enough to 'feel' when it was a lag reveal or an odd camera angle reveal, but there isn't very good feedback to show that other than repeated attempts to learn.
@Cheque0826 said:
I think Ghostface shouldn't be able to be revealed by someone hooked during the Endgame, since the game disables the anti-camp mechanic, and the assassin has no more objectives to defend. Another change could be changing an accessory so that it takes longer for any survivor to reveal it under any circumstances, or also that you can't reveal it when you are behind a corner where he can't even mark them. Not all of the changes I mentioned have to be implemented, but an improvement wouldn't hurt.
The 'campface' is the 2nd most degen version of Ghosty, with 'chaseface' being the worst (although the victim of 'chaseface' is the Killer player, and the victim of 'campface' is the Survivors). There should be no attempts to encourage the worst versions, be that low skill or annoying to face versions.
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@TeleportingTurkey said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3591102#Comment_3591102
the fact you keep doubling down on that tells me enough about ftp+bu apologists. imagine being so detached from reality.
"bruh just keep everyone injured every time you need to down a survivor, it's that easy"
"bruh just choose better target out of 2 identical survivors in the same identical position with same identical buffs".
i feel dirty even talking to you.
Imagine lacking so much skill that injuring Survivors is being alleged to be the equivalent of a herculean task. If one person in the lobby has the combo and you are so offended by it, you can turbo tunnel them out of the match, or merely have them be the one injured, not the entire lobby. No one else can heal them for 60s after a use. Even if everyone has it in the lobby, you get the permanent 33% slowdown, so you need something like 45s an injury state for that combo to be a threat. As I said before (recontextualized here), if a Killer is taking 45s per injury state (during chase), they have significantly larger issues than FTP+BU, they have chronic "sucks at the game-itis". That is 10s of Bloodlust 3 before getting an injury. Even then, that is basically having all 4 Survivors down 2 perks each. 4 Survivors with 0 perks wouldn't help that Killer win. As such I gave the 4 (perkless, Killer agnostic) methods of counterplay and I am met with accusations of delusional thinking and the repeated false claim of no counterplay existing at all, to which I respond "have you looked in the mirror lately?".
Imagine now claiming everyone is using the same skin in every match when that was never mentioned beforehand. That's like me claiming every Blight runs C33+Alch Ring. A FTP+BU usage (while not even remotely close to Blight's power), doesn't also include the worst possible condition of an omega sweatlord, just as all Blights must all be omega sweatlords and bring C33+Alch+full meta perks.
Now the only issue that I would agree on is if you have hearing damage and are unable to hear Survivors within 12m before a down. Having game action subtitles resized based on volume as an accessibility feature would be great. They started with the visual TR, but that doesn't work for every noise, nor for Killer at all. Plus with the game's sounds consistently being bugged, it would help to test and prove audio not working correctly if for example gens are being progressed on the other side of a wall and the subtitle doesn't show the 'gen being worked' sound.
@NerfDHalready said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3591145#Comment_3591145
and i thought the "it's just 3% bro" people are the worst, silly me. just play plague bro :D
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3590901#Comment_3590901
let's break it down and see how they aren't possible.
Hit someone within 11m following a chase with a free hit, especially if doubling back at walls/corners.
playing against potatoes that would give you a hit like that shouldn't be a hard task anyway regardless of what perks they run, even if they are that bad and took your "bait", essentially you had to hit a hit tanker without them even giving the hit to you.
Spread the pressure from the onset, keeping multiple Survivors injured/hooked so they are unwilling to take aggro.
what does this mean? play legion/plague? play top tier killers you can apply high pressure with?
this is only reasonable if you read that as "apply pressure TO the ftp+bu abusing degen". yes i'll tunnel them right out of the lobby, so their corpse won't bother me anymore.
A shadowed chase yields 33% gen slowdown, accept the 10% better Pentimento for free.
a successful ftp play (which can't be simpler and easier to pull off) leaves you with 2 injured people and most likely at least 1 gen worth of gen progress instead of your down and potential pop/pain res. congrats, you have almost 0 pressure and started the game at 4 gens.
Deep Wound either (or both) Survivor(s) to prevent additional Endurance procs.
lmao.
Choose who to chase based on positioning/hook states/Broken Status and pick the better of the two for that circumstance.
yes i'll pick the user and get them out asap. that's a valid counterplay.
Wait out the 10s and bodyblock chokepoints (windows/pallets/doorframes).
unless they have less than 4 digit game hours, they will find anything to run. even if it's a z wall, that's still better than them lying on the ground.
SO, please stop with this nonsense. i see you copy paste this to multiple topics, hopefully you won't anymore.
Point 1: You agree it is easy in the vast majority of matches, thanks. If they are close enough to risk FTP+BU, they are close enough to give a free hit as long as you have more skill than your opponent (minus bugged sounds or Light Step to be fair). They gift the Killer spread pressure on a silver platter, and the choice of 2 chases. Sounds like a win to me as Killer.
Point 2: The best way I can try to describe it is provide some attention or something for every Survivor to do, or set them up for failure, otherwise they will do gens and Killer will lose. Nemesis infecting the first person and swapping chase is an example, another is stalking as Ghosty to prep 99's for snowball potential, Oni similar to both Nemesis and Ghosty getting an injury to bleed and encourage healing sooner than later or risk that snowball potential, and even non-Tombstone Myers helps to take a hit and stalk a bit before swapping targets. Every Killer can apply pressure across the board, but it is a macro skill to learn how to do it, and how your specific Killer utilizes it best. Some Killers are low in terms of Macro potential such as Clown, as your Macro is instead your Micro. A Clown's Macro strat is his Micro, has a fast down to force a hook to force an unhook(+heal) and repeat. If you whiff Clown Bottles or Huntress Hatchets or Demo Shreds or Alien Tail Whips or so on, improve your Micro to improve your Macro. (Although some of those have greater Macro potential than others and aren't entirely reliant on Micro for Macro.)
Point 3: Think of health states collectively. If you have H+H+H+D, you have 2+2+2+0, or 6 Survivor HP. If they FTP+BU, they are H+H+I(B60s+E10s)+I(E10s), or 2+2+1+1, or still 6 Survivor HP.
Arguably it is better to go after the non-broken Survivor, but mileage may vary. They may have bought 20 gen seconds from the 10s Endurance from the other 2 Survivors, but how much time did they lose by shadowing the chase and not providing the gen seconds during it? Well if the Killer averages 10s/20s/30s follow-up chase (11 for the Endurance case to show the Killer has the capacity to count), and the Survivor with FTP+BU still has to run 5-10s (or 7.5s average) after using it to reach a gen (and ensure they aren't the one being chased), and the Survivor still needs to be healed for an average 32 gen seconds.
In the 10s(11s) chase, the Survivor only progressed 3.5s of gens, and still needs to heal for a basekit 32 gen seconds, so they are negative personal 28.5s, and negative team 8.5s. In the 20s chase, the Survivor only did 12.5s and net negative personal 19.5s, and team positive 0.5s. In the 30s chase, the Survivor only did 22.5s and net negative personal 9.5s, and team positive 10.5s. As long as you are mid match, this basically means it is a win for Killer, as the threat of an injured teammate provides too much snowball potential for most Killers. The vast majority of FTP+BU in my matches of Killer have been the 10(11s) chase, as I am able to bodyblock dangerous loops that would meaningfully extend the chase, or prevent the combo entirely and force a premature 32 gen second heal (or a Ghosty 99'd stalk down instead).
If it is the final singular gen, then fair, it prevents a death or 2, but that is far too rare in my games on both sides. Personally I consider myself weak in terms of skill (but strong in terms of game knowledge), so if I can do it, then certainly anyone else could, as long as they aren't foolishly giving the Survivor the speedboost without planning on dropping them for the other Surv (to force mend slowdown).
Also back to the collective health state concept, if they did FTP+BU, now after that delayed 'true down', you are back at H+H+I(Broken for ?s)+D(on Hook) or 5 Survivor HP, with only 2 Survivors in a safe position to rescue, and the 3rd Surv unable to heal for another (insert time remaining) and can only provide value on gens (or totems if applicable). When played correctly, that typically results in an injury on Surv 1, and then a forced hook trade on Surv 2, with now all 3 standing Survivors injured, and 1 on hook. That is a Macro death snowball, and very likely for the Killer to win.
Point 4: I would think someone with the name containing "Nerf DH" would be more happy to prevent Endurance procs, but I digress (it could have been the OG DH to be fair).
Point 5: Yeah if you focus someone with a specific combo and give up possible advantages that is up to your discretion, but at least we yet again agree the counterplay exists.
Point 6: Yeah that's kind of the point, they will attempt to run anything. However the results are entirely dependent on the Killer skill vs the Survivor. The most common usage of FTP+BU is on someone weaker on the team to delay their death, but that basically means the Killer is better than them by default. If a Survivor is running a Killer longer than the Endurance granted by BU on a Z-wall, they deserve to live, and the Killer needs to learn how to play the game. If the Survivor was better than the Killer, then the Killer can simply chase the BU user who likely is worse instead. Since the Killer has the choice of who to chase, they can easily pick the 11s chase every time. Even if the better Survivor attempts to Endurance bodyblock for the weaker Survivor, they risk a shortened Endurance timer and a forced pallet drop in the best case scenario for the bodyblocker. Having 2 injured Survs and one less pallet (that likely had to be a strong pallet to enable the bodyblock to occur at all) sounds like an easy snowball potential for me as Killer.
To close: So we agreed on 2 of 6 points (or 5 if you didn't intend LOL to be a serious refute, and more of an aside to the Deep Wounds part), and I gave reasoned explanations for the remainder. I very much prefer engaging in a dialogue than someone saying "its impossible lalalalalala" and sticking their fingers in their ears (like the other person), so thank you.
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I could say the same to you by saying "skill dif git gud scrub", but I gave the actual how, just in case you truly were so clueless to not figure out any of those on your own or by watching gameplay videos produced by others. If that is too difficult for you, I suggest swapping to 2-handed gameplay. 1 hand simply isn't going to cut it to move and aim at the same time, even with mouse macros to do that with, and is likely the only reason it is so difficult to engage in the combo's numerous counterplay approaches.
Entirely perkless the Killer has 4 (main) avenues for success. I'm sorry you are unable to see them through your victim complex blinders.
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@TeleportingTurkey said:
for the people is fine without buckle up.
it's a tool used to instantly heal a teammate after the hook to combat tunnel and take aggro from them or to pick up a slug if killer went away from them.
buckle up + ftp combo is braindead and unacceptably aggressive with how little counterplay it provides and how punishing it is for the killer for no real reason.
Little counterplay?
- Hit someone within 11m following a chase with a free hit, especially if doubling back at walls/corners.
- Spread the pressure from the onset, keeping multiple Survivors injured/hooked so they are unwilling to take aggro.
- A shadowed chase yields 33% gen slowdown, accept the 10% better Pentimento for free.
- Even if the Survs activate the combo the Killer still has multiple choices:
- Deep Wound either (or both) Survivor(s) to prevent additional Endurance procs.
- Choose who to chase based on positioning/hook states/Broken Status and pick the better of the two for that circumstance.
- Wait out the 10s and bodyblock chokepoints (windows/pallets/doorframes).
FTP+BU is only frustrating because it shows a personal failure to account for the scenario. That doesn't frustrate me because I can play better, and learn to improve. I can't make someone else better, but I can make myself better. I say this as a Ghosty main who is doubly hurt by a healthy person becoming injured and losing a potential marked down and hook. I could ambush them when they are alone, or I could work more on 99'ing marks, or plenty more methods of 'getting good'.
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Probably about 20% of my games (as Killer) are wins at 5 gens, I purposefully aim for 12 hooks unless someone bodyblocks posthook or taps a gen in my face, but they still lose at 5 gens. When I was first playing and learning, those were the worst (in terms of enjoyment) matches, where the opponent was so much better that I literally couldn't even pop a single gen.
The problem there is my build and mindset. I play with a middle of the line build, and a casual mindset. I am not playing for cash, so I only care about what happens mid match. That runs into an issue when I go against Survivors playing like they are playing for cash (or vice-versa when playing as Survivor with Killers playing for cash). Bringing BTL + juicy Toolboxes, planned Adren/Deliv pops, and so on. My build and playstyle isn't sweaty, but I can run into Survivors (whose MMR is high from sweating), and now I am ill equipped to (consistently) deal with them. You are almost punished for playing casually and winning, and I don't quite know how to solve that.
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@RaSavage42 said:
Gen efficiency with 4 Survivors is better then 3
With 4 Survivors:
1 being chased
3 on Gens (either separate or together)
OR
1 being chased
1 fallowing
2 on Gens (either separate or together)
With 3 Survivors:
1 being chased
2 on Gens (either separate or together)
OR
1 being chassed
1 fallowing
1 on Gens
Plus some of the resources will be used
Yeah in a SWF on comms you can actually have Surv A use all map resources and have Survs B/C/D pump gens.
Sadly ~60% of matches are solos, where you can't communicate the Killer's intention to tunnel, where a Survivor will take a useless bodyblock (rather than a Bloodlust dropping bodyblock), and will result in a free win for Killer the majority of the time.
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@HugTechLover said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3589729#Comment_3589729
I’d probably change it to some cheesy memorial name for the hug tech. Lol
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3589754#Comment_3589754
You should probably read the OP. You would answer your own question.
Also, while the hug tech may not have been intended, his collision changing based on camera angle (Looking down) was intended. @Reinami already stated why this was implemented. Blight’s collision was miserably sticky.
Yeah I see now. On my original reading I saw a definition and a wiki link so I skipped past that part as I both understood the word as well as immediately thought "why not an normal dictionary site or the in-game rules link on the forums here?" Similar to if someone would repost the full text of Adrenaline for a discussion on it in the body when the question "should Adrenaline wake up against Freddy anymore?" is found in the title.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3589779#Comment_3589779
It was mentioned by a dev at some point when someone asked why people weren't getting banned for abusing some bugs but not abusing others. An example i think was the legion bug that allowed you to infinite stack mending. People were banned for exploiting that bug, but not another similar bug, and the reason was because at that time killswitch did not exist, so they banned people for it. Now "if something is ban worthy" they can kill switch it.
Obviously for stuff like the flashlight locker thing they also kill switched flashlights, but they couldn't kill switch getting a flashlight in a chest, so people who still exploited it were banned.
Found a few recent examples here:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3129989#Comment_3129989
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3373600#Comment_3373600
Basically if they consider something an "exploit" that is abusable and "gives an unfair competitive advantage" such that it breaks the rules, they would kill switch it and not ban for it.
Therefore, blight is not kill switched, thus hug tech is fine to use.
I think in this case they have no clue how to fix his collision, and are taking a calculated risk for the sake of revenue on Blight skins and character sales. They can't exactly killswitch RMB for Blight until they get it fixed evidently. That also still doesn't explain why Merciless Storm was left in while bugged and regressing gens by 80% even when hitting the skillchecks in that patch, likely also skyrocketing Onryo sales. Essentially there is a grey area of morally dubious behavior by BHVR for the sake of money in the realm of bug exploits and when and when it isn't bannable.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3589754#Comment_3589754
Devs have made it clear in the past, that now that they have the killswitch, things that are "exploits" that can be killswitched aren't bannable. If they thought this was an exploit, they would killswitch blight until it was fixed.
My understanding was they were only using the killswitch on things that impacted a significantly large enough percentage of matches. There was that one patch where the Twins were actually bugged unplayable (sometimes on swap to or from Victor it would lock the camera in the ground), and they didn't killswitch it when they should have. Similarly with Pinhead in another patch (I think Survivors couldn't play and were perma incapped?), and when Merciless Storm was regressing ~80% of a gen on a failed check where they weren't killswitched.
If what you allege is true I would like a link to that claim (only bannable things are killswitched). The picture (of Mandy's post) in the OP clearly states 'hugtech' is a bug exploit (technically just a bug, but its intentional usage means the player is exploiting it), and with the game rules they list exploiting bugs for a competitive advantage or gaining what isn't normally possible to be against the game rules (see exact text in my prior post).
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3589738#Comment_3589738
I mean, do you think flashlight save / bodyblocking is worth it in DBD?
I would say yes.
Buckle up + for the people makes it guaranteed to happen.
Thing is when we used it in few games, we basically used it to save resources. Basically instead of dropping shack pallet, survivor greed it like crazy and when got downed we saved with FTP.
Of course it doesn't work when survivor waits there for a minute watching you chase, but that survivor nearby means I don't have to care about getting downed and can just greed everything and killer can't really stop it.
Flashlight save/bodyblocking worth it - I would say mostly no with a large 'depends'. The majority of circumstances would make it a bad proposition. Bodyblocking post hook (as the unhookee) may induce tunneling, so that hurts the chances of success. Bodyblocking to soak up a Killer's Bloodlust 3 is an excellent use on the other hand. Bodyblocking to effectuate a 4 out also is an excellent use. Bodyblocking to feed Mettle of Man is fun, but ultimately throwing. Bodyblocking to take a hit en-route to hook is also (99% of the time) throwing.
Similar with Flashlight saves. Most of the times they fail against a Killer actually trying, so the time lost in the attempt was worthless. At the same time the time gained on success can be valuable. In my matches as both sides, the Killer is far far far less likely to get hit by a blind rescue and thus the Survivor was throwing in the attempt (in the majority of those attempts). Maybe in lower brackets where blinds have a 99% success rate it is worth it, but not in any match I've been in since my first month or two in the game.
That's the main issue, in aggregate, Bodyblocking/Flashlight/FTP+BU lose matches for Survivors, but are fun for Survivors when they work. At the same time, it can sting all the harsher when as Killer and you get hit by one of them. I just remember the 38 prior matches of failed blind attempts (that won me the game) when I carelessly get hit by the blind(s) in a match, and carry on with my day. Same with all of those things. As Killer I always have a better option, and it is on me to learn and take it.
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@Venusa said:
Chucky is full of hug-techs so I'm not sure at this point...
Is Chucky supposed to swing when he collides with a wall? He appeared to be working as intended (when I checked him out). Blight is designed to bump when you rush at an object, and aiming down is not meant to change the collision of objects, making it clearly not working as intended.
@HugTechLover said:
Who knows, they could just be considering it as basekit now. It adds a good level of skill expression to the game, for both sides. Wish they would just give an answer to this so we can stop making repetitive threads and debates.
However, the hug tech does not give a “substantial unfair advantage”.
The locker exploit that was recently patched is a key example of a “substantial unfair advantage”.
I'm not sure where you are getting "substantial unfair advantage" from. This is the game rules text:
Exploit bugs, errors in design, or undocumented features to gain access to what otherwise would not be available or to obtain a competitive advantage
The specific phrasing they use here is "competitive advantage", which the bug exploit most certainly grants, as well as "what otherwise would not be available".
@Quizzy said:
Ever since blight came out, the dev who made the blight considered hug tech not intended. Unfortunately he left before he could find a solution. Would've taken too long anyways considering this issue hasn't been solved even now
My understanding is when they 'fixed' his crotch height camera to be the other head instead, it disconnected the 2 checks they had programmed for collision. 1 was connected to the physical location, and 1 was connected to the camera. When they were they same spot, it was (mostly) working correctly. When they attempted to fix it (after moving the camera), they 'duct-taped' on the second check, and called it a day more or less.
Honestly reverting Blight to his old crotch height camera (which fixed most of his bumping bugs at the cost of being slightly annoying to play) would probably be for the best.
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3589189#Comment_3589189
Kinda an issue is it's lose lose scenerio.
Let's say I notice survivor behind me, what can I do?
- ignore them and commit to down -> they get easy save with For the people, now I have to either wait 10 seconds and hope for the best, or hit them for mending
- turn around to injure them -> that's basically bodyblock, where they didn't even need correct position
Doesn't matter what you do, your chase just got longer because of it.
That's why STBFL is used so much lately, it's simply best thing we have against it.
STBFL is common because it is an M1 Killers dream perk. It helps shave all the worthless time in chase, and allows for double hits when the Survivor misplays (bad drop angles or runs into a wall or more).
If you notice them you take the free hit. That forces them to now spend 16 real time/32 gen seconds healing after they walk over to find someone to heal them. Now you also have the choice of the 2 injured Survivors as to who you want to chase. The chase got longer by taking the free hit, but it got longer by less than the gen progress was lost by the Survivors by having the person shadow the chase and run back and forth to get healed.
If 3 people simply did gens, you have (chase time x 3) gen seconds. If you have a FTP+BU user (successfully using it), you have (chase time x 2) + an additional chase time x 1, with the added risk of a snowball potential on the Survivor side by having an extra injury, and a grouped gen once they heal (60s later). In the best case the Survivors tie on gen times, (and prevents an early tunneled kill), but in most cases they lose health states for no (long-term) beneficial reason.
The only circumstance I agree it can be powerful is when people are using it to prevent an early tunnel kill. I go for 6-8 hooks before my first kill though, so I view nothing of value being lost. It helps to improve Killer skill to delay the first kill as long as possible, and it lets Survivors play the game longer, so unless the match is played for money, its a win-win to not tunnel.
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It certainly is annoying, but is super easy to deal with in the vast majority of circumstances.
- It can't be used if the Survivor is injured, so spreading pressure protects the Killer from an unwanted pickup.
- If the rescuing Surv is shadowing the chase the entire time, the Killer has 33% gen slowdown. That's better than Pentimento.
- The rescuing Survivor has to run during the hit CD of 2.7s, or reach ~11m distance. Outside of Ripley's Light Step, they can be seen and heard (only seen with Light Step), and most times give a free hit in the attempt (either during or prior).
- Even in the worst case scenario of the combo going off, the Killer still gets to hit one of them to prevent any other Endurance effect, and the FTP user can't heal for 60s to use it again. As such, simply hit the originally downed Surv after pickup and down them in chase normally again. Alternatively bodyblock windows/pallets/chokepoints and get a free hit or 2. If a Killer is taking ~80s (Broken+Heal timer) to down a single health state in chase, they have greater problems than this combo.
Should it exist? No. Is it a problem? Also no (assuming the Killer has a modicum of skill/functioning brain).
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At this point can we all just admit the 6.1 perk changes (and their immediate hotfixes) were horrible for the game. Nerfing Calm Spirit, nerfing Pharmacy to be worse than Self-Care, nerfing Thana, nerfing Pop and Pain Res only to re-buff them to nearly the same or better states then they were, creating the degen 3gen kick meta for all too long, nerfing anti-tunnel into the dirt of non-viability.
Ruin, along with all the other nerfed perks in 6.1 should just have their 6.1 nerfs reverted in the next patch if they haven't been otherwise touched (Pop/PR).
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3587714#Comment_3587714
Bleedout as a mechanic or more accurately the dying state essentially puts someone in a state where they have no reason to interact with the game, and their time is better served alt-tabbed.
do you alt tab when your on the hook on first stage? the recovery time is pretty fast. 30.5 seconds? you can still crawl. if your teammate nearby and killer is not, it is not that hard to pick survivors up. I do not see this as alt tab at all.
It currently is a secondary wincon that is slower but still possible to achieve. It should be far too slow to be desirable, due to the lack of engagement players have until unhooked/picked up.
I disagree. bleed out is not possible to achieve on competent 4 man survivor team. you are playing vs very bad survivors to achieve that in normal gameplay. like i said, i think slugging is too ineffective as wincon for pure slugging killers to work in dbd. right now it is mostly used as comeback mechanic in 3vs1's and sometimes to camp hooks.
Bleedouts/alt-tabs
Currently people don't frequently attempt a full-on bleedout, they slug for a short term advantage at worst, but not try to kill by bleeding out. Survivors have to be in the dying state for a Killer to attempt a bleedout, whether they are downing them and picking them up after the hit CD, pressuring the Survivors away from a potential rescue, or trying to waste 4 minutes of their time. In addition, many people do alt-tab on first hook (until 0-15s after being rescued, depending on how much they are paying attention), and this would exacerbate that problem. Crawling is a joke though, it takes ~6s of crawling to equal 1s of running, you can't make it anywhere meaningful with the timeframe given. Edit: If full Bleedouts are encouraged without the removal of incapacitation in the dying state (so they can work gens, heal allies, or whatever), people will alt-tab and stop playing the game.
Bleedouts not possible against competent players
I agree, when all four survivors are competent, bleedouts aren't possible. Sadly (the last odds we have say that) 60% of players are soloq, which increase the odds of incompetence massively. I mostly play to the incentive, but the largest reason for me to swap is soloq incompetence. I all too often run into a complete and total idiot on my team whose singular action (not even chain of actions, but sometimes those as well) lost the match for the entire team. That isn't rare, that's the Killers main method of winning (as and against), taking advantage of the incompetent. The other night a Yui played Blockbuster against an Onion Ring and ran tapes the entire game, never pumping gens (and denying tapes from teammates who might need them and did need them), and then a Steve who stayed Deep Wounded against a Nurse from a prior Endurance effect to commit on a gen, but then didn't fully commit (when he could have both finished the gen and mended), leaving the person on hook to die (due to hook rescue interception) as well as not finish the gen. I have 2 examples off the top of my head because they were so painfully annoying, but by no means are they uncommon. This is soloq, this is Pinhead's fantasy favorite realm, this is normal gameplay.
Edit: Forgot a relevant sentence to append to the end of the first section
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The emblem tracks 2 points per kill, 1 point for each Survivor being hooked, and 1 point for 9 hook (actions?) total. I swear at one point Moris counted as hook actions, so that means it is a bug or an oversight. Moris should count as a hook action (or even remaining hook actions) just to work with this, but I can also understand them not wanting to encourage Devour Hope Mori on first downs. There was also a bug that the last Mori didn't count as a Kill at one point, but it looks like you got 8 (80) points for kills.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3587165#Comment_3587165
A competent Killer ignores the competent Survivor, and wins by default (as long as there is 1 Survivor less competent than the Killer). A 3v1 might as well be a free (delayed) win for Killer, as if you have 1 on hook, 1 in chase, the final 1 has to rescue, so gens will never get progressed, and hook states will accrue.
few talking points. First, the killer does not know who weak links are in a team at the start of the game. The killer has to chase survivors and find survivor which is timing consuming task in itself to find weak-links. Survivor does not have any build-up to their generator objective. the objective is exactly same at the start the game as it is at the end of the game. secondly, strong teams don't have weak-links. the killer has to create weak-points for survivor to capitalize off mistakes. It is not that easy to create 3vs1's when the team is good. lastly, the idea that 3vs1 is auto-lose for survivor is not true. if there 1 gen or 2 gens remaining and they're all split, there is still good chance for survivor to win. You have successful to be looping the killer. there is no reason why survivor team cannot finish 3 gens before someone dies. gen speed in the game is very oppressive for killer when 4 people are alive. My opinion is that the matches for survivor have "delayed" wins when you use up all the effective pallets in the game corresponding to the killer. as long pallet remaining in trial, you can still complete generators in 3vs1. It is just many survivor are used to losing chases but still finish all 5 gens. 4vs1 is like that for survivor.
bleeding out instead of hooking also ruins the experience for players. We shouldn't encourage bad designs.
My first question is what about the mechanic is bad design to you?
Encouraging Bleedouts as a valid alternative primary 'win' would encourage the death of the game. People don't have fun when they don't get to play. Bleeding out forces people to not play.
I am not saying that it should be primary win condition. I am saying it should be secondary win condition that is slower but still possible to achieve. right now, it is too slow to achieve and almost impractical which hurts killer with slugging designs. I agree that being on the floor is not fun. that is why I said that increasing recovery time for survivor is not a good idea because the survivor becomes too disengaged from the game because they're on the floor for too long. DBD should remain as fast-paced game and increasing bleed out recovery by a large amount would potentially slow the game down. The only way positive i can see from doing that is that you do not need to give killers any base gen-regression perks but this comes at expense of survivor's fun factor. The reason why I say this is because Peanits wrote long ago in 6.1 june update : " Slowdown perks should be an option, but not the only option to stay competitive. Fast-forward to today after 1 year and 3 months, killer still use most of the same perks that were stated to be used in that post Pain res, Pop goes weasel and Corrupt Intervention. the only perk that you do not see is hex:ruin which has been replaced by Surge. These are still most common perks used by killers. This means killer are still mostly dependent on game-delay perks. The only variation that killer have is what type of game-delay perks synergy with said killers. Slugging is a possible form of making killer not require any of those game-delay perks. I am just not sure whether slugging is correct type of game-delay for survivors to play against if recovery timers were increased by a lot.
First paragraph
It should take no longer than 60s to suss out the strengths of the team if the Killer cares to win, or even shorter if you use all the information available from Lethal Pursuer (walking thus likely Sprint Burst, AFKs, running with excessive wiggling suggesting inefficient pathing, etc.). A 3v1 essentially guarantees a tie best case for Survivor, unless the Killer colossally screws up. Big difference from Killer loss of 4 out, 3 out, and 2 out. Plus if the Survivors screw up too bad, they risk giving a 3k or 4k instead. Since we were starting from the concept of a 'competent Killer', that means on their worst day they still merely end with a tie, and the majority of the time they get a 3/4k instead. Earlier today I had 2 soloq matches where the Killer turbo tunneled they baby Surv at 5 gens, and the other 3 fell as a result. In one of them every player other than the tunneled player was individually better than the Killer, and frequently ran 1-2 minute chases (beyond average expectations) before the Killer merely Bloodlusted them at filler pallets.
"My first question is what about the mechanic is bad design to you?"
Bleedout as a mechanic or more accurately the dying state essentially puts someone in a state where they have no reason to interact with the game, and their time is better served alt-tabbed. The only reason wiggling on the shoulder even exists is to prevent all hooks from being basement hooks. As such, from Dying state to unhooked, the player isn't playing, or can do all too little to make a difference (recover on the ground at half heal speed, wiggle to prevent distant hooks, nothing meaningful more). Generators aren't exactly engaging, but the penalty of a missed skillcheck is high enough to keep the player focused on the game. Dying as is gives a paltry sum of Survival points to recover/hit wiggle checks.
Final paragraph
It currently is a secondary wincon that is slower but still possible to achieve. It should be far too slow to be desirable, due to the lack of engagement players have until unhooked/picked up. If basekit pickups or no Incapacitation existed during the Dying state (so you could heal/work gens/cleanse totems/open gates), then it would be fine to decrease the bleedout timer, because you can still play the game. Currently it is 'alt-tab time', and that is what makes it bad for the game. Like I said in the other post, time spent out of the game while you should be in-game, means why bother playing the game at all, just watch Youtube and never boot up DBD, or boot up a game you are actually allowed to play instead. As far as regression is concerned, it is basically a personal difficulty slider made alongside Clown/Blight spectrum for mix and match potential. Because the game functions on Killers eventually downing Survivors, Survivors are effectively on a ticking clock to win before resources run out. Slowdown gives Killers a longer timer, thus more resource attrition. Personally I use 1 max slowdown or gimmick combos, (on Killers I enjoy) and that is my current 'crutch/difficulty slider' for most enjoyable gameplay. Any more than 1 slowdown, and my matches are too easy to enjoy, any less, and I strain my skills beyond their current limits where I need to sweat to win, instead of casually enjoying Killer. People who care more about winning at all costs strictly run meta, because it is the most effective tactic available, or easiest to win as seen on the adjustable difficulty slider I mentioned above. I prefer to throw in perks like Blast Mine or Trail of Torment, as they are dopamine generators. I don't get as much dopamine from the raw win because I understand how meaningless it is to me, so the little moments are the most enjoyable like jump scaring as non-stealth Killers, or popping gens during the Blast Mine stun. If I just wanted to win (nearly) every match, I'd run a 3/4 slowdown Blight and steamroll without what I consider any effort on my part. I have more than 70% winrate (as Killer) as is, so I am happy with my results and how I accomplish them. Its just soloq being a torture simulator is what I strain against the most when doing tomes or when Survivor is 100% incentive.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3587067#Comment_3587067
The Killer deciding not to play the game in an engaging way should be punished, not rewarded. Reward hooks, punish slugs. There is no reason for the original 45s PTB basekit pickups, or even the more tame suggestion of 90s basekit pickups, to not be in the game.
I do not agree. the survivor's skill-cap in the game is how you manage resources to repair all 5 generators and escape through exit gate. As this sounds, bleed out timer is resource in itself for survivor. Hook-stages, pallet resources, health-state are all different types of resources. The killer's skill-cap is about managing time. hooking survivors is a time consuming action. the killer needs to be able to allocate time for how they see fit in the game. forcing killer to hook takes away intricate killer decision making. The killer does not decide how fast or how slow the match goes. when survivors do generators quickly, slugging is one of only ways for killer to have chance to comeback and win. with any form of high-speed unbreakable, unbreakable prevents you from being able to perform comebacks because you can recover quicker then killer can down survivors.
In my opinion, I think slugging-bleed out slugging should be more plausible winning strategy for killer however I don't think it should be stronger then hooking. Just possible. there should be bleed out risks when playing as survivor. from my perceptive, slugging too unattractive when 4 survivor are alive for killer because survivor gets too many pick-up chances. That is my opinion to why i think Twins is unpopular killer. It is so unattractive to hook people as twins when victor downs people from far away because it takes too long for killer to complete their objective. the idea of pure slugging from start to finish is not effective enough for killer. the main challenge is how do you make slugging engaging for the survivor. my concern is that buffing recovery time for survivor gameplay to be too inactive. The survivor becomes too disengaged from the game because they're on the floor for too long. they will feel like they're not participating in the match. Most of strength in slugging in current dbd is 3vs1's. This is because if you can down 2 people next to each other, you camp the 2 survivors to potential find the last survivor. once you find last survivor, you can chase last survivor because you have near infinity time to down them. The final survivor trying to pick up other survivors while being chased by killer will result in killer waiting for slug to be picked up only for them to hit them right back on the floor. Once recovery timers are reset, then killer only needs to down you to end the match. All of this still relies on two survivors consecutively failing chases in short time frame. in that sense, I always see it as survivor misplay for killer to get a successful slug. this why I do not agree in regards to punishing killer for killer making a good play. One thing I will say in regards to slugging is that I do think that 3vs1 slugging and 2vs1 slugging is too killer sided. when someone picks you up from dying state, my opinion is that it is little cheap for killer to be able to directly put you back in the dying state. As far as end game 2vs1 slugging is concerned, i do not really like how survivor end games can be drawn out by either side from excessive stealth or excessive slugging for 4k. I am not entirely sure how to properly address it but I do not like how the end game is when the killer is winning. I wish there was some faster method of concluding the game for the killer in some capacity. I believe finisher Mori was dev attempt to make end-games finish faster. I just do not think it was hitting the goal.
I would say Survivor's skill is having less incompetent allies than the enemy, which isn't skill in your control (outside of SWF and you pick who you play with). A competent Killer ignores the competent Survivor, and wins by default (as long as there is 1 Survivor less competent than the Killer). A 3v1 might as well be a free (delayed) win for Killer, as if you have 1 on hook, 1 in chase, the final 1 has to rescue, so gens will never get progressed, and hook states will accrue.
Just as a Survivor pre-dropping every pallet, or suiciding on hook ruins the experience for other players, bleeding out instead of hooking also ruins the experience for players. We shouldn't encourage bad designs. Lessening the buildup on DCs penalties could solve the suicide on hook problem, but more complex measures might be needed for intentional predrops of all pallets. Similarly a simple fix to bleeding out is a basekit pickup, at a longer than normal timer to reach the 95%.
Removing bleedouts doesn't force the Killer to hook so much as it forces the Killer to hook in a timely manner. The same player could be in an Exponential boon zone, or picked up by another player, or have Soul Guard or Unbreakable, and a basekit pickup mechanic would remove the ambiguity and have a simple understandable timeframe. Encouraging Bleedouts as a valid alternative primary 'win' would encourage the death of the game. People don't have fun when they don't get to play. Bleeding out forces people to not play. Most Survivors I pickup in a bleedout match are AFK and don't even move for 15-30s as they were clearly resigned to their fate and were alt-tabbed watching a Youtube video or something. At the very least Survivors could complete actions like gens/totems/exit gates if they were to include a bleedout intentional win, otherwise people would hard quit Survivor, because being AFK on Youtube is the same gameplay in or out of a match.
It most certainly isn't punishing Killers making good plays, it is punishing Killers for making plays that would kill the game. We don't allow cheating for the same reason, because people would quit in mass. The game's very nature of asymmetrical sides requires slowdown or lack of agency from the greater numerical side, but pushing that lack of agency too far makes no one play. Similarly the lesser number side must be hard designed to 'win', hence 4.6 v 4.0, hence Bloodlust, hence finite pallet resources, hence entity blockers on windows. No one is going to queue into a 15 minute match with 14 of those minutes better spent AFK outside of the game, especially if they made the correct play in every circumstance, and the games decision of 'you go down now because this is a 1v4' comes into effect. Naw, I'm going to either swap games, or only play Killer, but then there will be no one to play Survivor unless they are cheating, so you can't even play Killer.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3586730#Comment_3586730
almost no killers have any time to down 1 survivor in 45 seconds if the survivor is skilled at looping said killer. Just hold-w with 1 health-state is 20 seconds for m1 killer. this is not accounting all pallets or windows that exist in the map. down 3 people in demon fury is learn to play issue on survivor end. Oni's demon fury is loopable. it is just that it takes survivor skill to loop.
even at 90 seconds, you barely have enough time to down two survivors and walk back as killer from one end of the map to other end of the map. It is just that if someone is on floor for 90 seconds, they might bleed out eventually so killer might get a reward for downing people. that is why unbreakable works with that long recovery time. The only problem is that it is not fun for survivor to stay on floor for 90 seconds. that is why I do not advise increasing bleed out recovery time. It is better if killer get rewarded with faster bleed out timer for applying pressure to the team then trying stagnate the game. at same time, maybe slower dbd games is a good thing? it is a way to give killer's game-delay without introducing any game regression perks into the game for killer. I am just not sure if that type of game-delay survivors and killer were necessary looking for.
Exactly, only a fool would leave a Survivor on the ground for an extended time if they didn't have a plan. The Killer can easily just hook the Survivor (and should, so that they don't lose on the pressure gained), and win much easier that way. The Killer deciding not to play the game in an engaging way should be punished, not rewarded. Reward hooks, punish slugs. There is no reason for the original 45s PTB basekit pickups, or even the more tame suggestion of 90s basekit pickups, to not be in the game.
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Pain Res is essentially trading a perk for a 6th gen. That is typically a fine tradeoff, but I'd say on stronger Killers it might burn Survivor resources too fast if they aren't hyper efficient. That is more a problem with the stronger Killers being too strong in comparison to the mean, and Survivor tomes causing losses though, not Pain Res in and of itself. Nerf Blight (and the likes), and remove throw tomes, and it'd be fine. It isn't like a Demo is oppressive with 6 gens.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
dev did try that with 45 seconds. with 90 seconds, it is likely fine to be slugged however you will feel like gameplay is really slow on survivor end. the recovery rate increase perks like boon:exponential would need to be adjusted to be halve the value. I am not sure what point of unbreakable and No mither would be because they would both be recovery perks... except one has drawback of being injured. either way max recovery would need to be no more then 50% on those two perks. anything faster then 60 seconds of recovery is really bad for killer under that system.
The funny thing with the 45s that people kept claiming to be bad was actually the Mori system tied to it. Even in a classical slug scenario of an Oni snowballing with 3 downs, that yielded 28s of the first person downed, with 17s to pickup, then everyone else could still be hooked sequentially as long as you carried them to hooks en route to the next person.
(Here is a more detailed breakdown of the concept and picture above, feel free to skip if you got the gist of it.) In this basic Oni slugging from 3 power hits across the map, Oni still has time to hook each of them even when they were downed in a triangle of opposite corners (with 45s basekit pickups). From the first down in the top left, and the final down in the bottom center, the Oni merely needs to remember the order of downed Survivors, and they can't pick themselves up if they moved. After Oni downs the Yellow Surv 3, they go back to hook Red Surv 1, and try to find the hook en route to Green Surv 2. After that, then have a shortened timer of (an average) 11s to pick up Surv 2, and can repeat the same rough process en route to Surv 3. At that point the Oni could take the closest hook available (H3A) or attempt a more central hook to be closer to the action (H3B).
Since they tied the finished Mori to that same mechanic, Killers were instead purposely bleeding out to speed run attempts for a 4 down win. Personally I think the finisher Mori should be tied to (only) 1 Survivor alive and on the ground, and then 3 button options pop up over the Surv (like the current Mori/pickup button prompts), Quick Mercy (skip Mori, counts as hatch escape), Mercy (play Mori, counts as hatch escape and Kill by hands), and Murder (play Mori, counts as Kill by hands). That way people don't have to look for hatch, they can just end the match there and then. At the same time it doesn't prevent the Killer from having the option to manually find hatch themselves if they liked the old system.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3585537#Comment_3585537
You undervalue the ambush a bit.
-For whatever reason I didn't get a notification, sorry for the delayed response -
All too often Survivors can use a pallet or window and you have to run up on their butt to 'insta-ambush' in order to save the STBFL stack, when a lunge is accessible ~2s earlier. So yeah, in a pallet deadzone it works, but you can't always guarantee those.