mizark3
mizark3
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3584807#Comment_3584807
Don't forget the pig.
It has synergy with her style of gameplay AND she can save the stacks.
One of the best, if not the best user of Stbfl.
The only reason I didn't mention the Pig is because you can only preserve stacks when the Survivors *let you* preserve stacks.
She fits under the M1 paradigm I mentioned before, but not under the Rapid Brutality overlap one, as she needs Bloodlust at many loops, especially against pre-dropping madlads.
The best case scenario for a Pig, is a Survivor panic from M1 on an uncrouch, they run into the wall, and STBFL gives you the follow-up hit before they can reorient themselves towards a pallet/window. That is more common than people think, so she is one of the Killers who actually gets more value from STBFL than another perk.
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Honestly I agree. The value gained from STBFL is less than the value gained from another perk in place of it. It also trains you to NOT use power with very strong power Killers.
I think STBFL is still good on Killers that don't have an M2 hit, even if the Obsession is bugging you. Either the Obs dies early and gives you a free win, or they lose too much time coordinating heals for the minimal benefit, especially while their team still burns pallets just as fast as normal. IMO Clown is the best user (and one of the few Rapid Brutality users as well), and any other Rapid Brutality/STBFL users like Trapper are also fine with using it.
Ghosty is a perfect example of a horrible STBFL user. You should only get exposed hits, so if you are building STBFL, you are failing at exposed hits. The time you save is from approaching at odd angles or mid 'chase' 99'ing, so that you can on demand 1 hit them when it matters.
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I suggested this before, but only after AFK crows start to fly above you. You don't accrue AFK crows while recovering or crawling, so this effectively is still a 90s timer (~30s recovery, then 60s for the first AFK crow). It also still tells the Killer where the Survivor is, so they can't sneak away and hide to recover. If the Killer had to wait 90s before a pickup (especially since they had AFK crows), then the only realistic condition is 'Griefing: Targeting specific users repeatedly in order to ruin their gameplay experience'.
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@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3583172#Comment_3583172
People most certainly did complain about how slow his CD was on the PTB. It got buffed from the PTB for that reason. We never got to see the intended 2.0m/s in action and BHVR nerfing it on the same patch as the bug fix was a bad move.
It just means that if anything is bugged to be stronger than intended, it's perfectly fine to nerf it in addition to the bug fix.
People were complaining mostly about the animation feeling wonky, not the movement speed post tail attack. The hit timing was like half a second before the visual looked like it would hit. I think maybe there were one or two voices thinking it should be faster, but that was the "all Killers should be 4.8 or even 5.0, and every map is Survivor sided" voices, so they never should be listened to anyways.
@Zokenay said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3583252#Comment_3583252
The turrets arent even close to being as oppressive as you think, if you want oppressive look at poor Meatball with the EMPs, now those are oppressive.
Other than indoor maps/controller usage/3gen attempts, it helps sooooo much if someone wastes their time to EMP since it only takes 3s to tag and TP back on top of them. It wastes an EMP, wastes travel time crossmapping to EMP the goo, and can even potentially give you a free hit if they put themself out of position. Sing is super fun to play and super easy to steamroll with once you get the lock-on timings down for biopod tags. The worst thing for Sing is barely missing a TP only to place a pod then break the pod the place another pod then break that pod then finally TP to the Survivor.
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My anecdotal memories are the exact opposite in NA West During most normal hours. If anything is the highest predictor of scummy behavior (for both sides), it is the presence of a map offering. My 'sweat for 4ks' or 'tome challenges on Killers I am weaker at playing' causes more intentional insults like endgame tbags (at hatch or gate) than when I play normally (soft aim for 6-8 hooks before a kill, but if someone takes chase I oblige them). (I don't consider mid-match tbags and clickies offensive though, as they lose time and distance, so they are helping me win; I trust their results more than their intentions. It'd be like if someone says "I hate your guts", but gave you a free [untampered with] pizza with the goal of getting me fat, ok buddy, thanks.)
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I partially agree. I would prefer the totem gets moved, rather than the hook gets blocked though. When the Killer is in control of where they down someone, it isn't fair on their end if they aren't in control of where the totem is placed. (Moreso in the case of a pre-endgame hook/down.)
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@HugTechLover said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3578616#Comment_3578616
I promise you there is more than “hoping he’s not good.” Learn the counterplay. It’s there.
Less time spent giving up because you don’t like a killer that you can’t loop like a regular m1 killer… is more time spent becoming a more skilled survivor.
The issue is then the counterplay on Survivor end is met with a better option for Blight on the Killer end. So we roll back around to "hoping he's not good" all over again. The other issue of course being the soloq teammates dropping like flies. Just because either of us may be able to lead a Blight on a longer than average chase, doesn't mean there aren't 3 other clowns err soloq teammates for the Blight to swap aggro towards for a free win.
The second part is more a personal thing. Some people like having their skills continually improve, and some people are looking to have fun by goofing off with friends. If the person's goal never was 'become a better with the goal of being a perfectly skilled Survivor', then sadly this advice is useless. Personally I recommend 'tryhards' to play CS/SC, Counter Strike or StarCraft. Alternatively Dota for CS, and maybe Street Fighter for StarCraft. Those games actually reward skill expression, and wouldn't waste the players time in playing them for that purpose.
@HugTechLover said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3579000#Comment_3579000
I have. MULTIPLE times in MULTIPLE threads. I have typed out long explanations in great detail. These gamers don’t want to hear it.
Their response is typically “bUt tHe hUgTeCh!!” Or “tHeRe iS nO coUntErPlaY” even though I JUST told them some key counters.
Youtube tutorials help for these FAQ styled annoyances. I too got annoyed of having to explain macro to people all too unwilling to listen, but the (honest) options are either I can re-explain to the newer people who never saw my original posts, make a video and link it each time someone asks, or stay out of those discussions. I still am at the 're-explain' stage, but my patience too is wearing thin so I might have to jump into the video tutorial or avoid discussion camps instead.
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Plague is the worst designed Killer in the game. Her mechanics take away from the core, not add to it, as Healing as a mechanic is essentially deleted outright. Her puking is annoying to hear, annoying to hit with, and provides far too many false positives. She is arguably one of the best 3-gen Killers in the game, as you can get 'free hits' by infecting the gens and running off. Cleansing is too often overused or underused, and you get lambasted in chat for doing either, like am I not supposed to cleanse against the camping Plague so I can unhook before I get downed? There is no built-in mechanic or perk to silence the puking while affected by it (but that is also a Nemmy problem). She has been bugged with PWYF for the longest time, in that puking and injuring a Survivor with green puke DOESN'T drop a PWYF stack, so she can only lose 1 stack normally, floating at max the entire game, making her effectively a 125/130 Killer if they know about that bug abuse.
(Second lesser opinion, Mori HUD removal should be an option, not forced.)
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3577054#Comment_3577054
My brother in the entity... you are the ones talking about two survivors on one gen being 106 "seconds"!
If two survivors in one gen are "53 seconds * 2 = 106 seconds (charges)", two survivors in two gens would do 53 charges on those two gens! That's the amount of charges not being pumped to another gen for having two survivors on the same gen, and those would be the charges "lost" if that other survivor didn't get to another gen as in the example I gave. Am I missing something here?
For the rest of the post, you are not wrong, but we have to remember that the killer technically can only chase one survivor, so any other survivor in that gen only have to wait for the killer to pick a survivor to commit to (and of course, not giving a free hit to the killer) and the moment the killer turn his back keep repairing the gen. In fact, even if the killer hit you but decides to chase another survivor, you can still stick around and keep doing that gen. So, I don't agree with your "nor do they get to continue to progress the gen they were just on" statement. Survivors had done this to me, and I had done this as survivor, it is not an uncommon practice (and one of the main reasons for using "Nowhere to hide") and I even would say that knowing when you should stay by the gen or getting the hell out of there as soon as possible in that situation is having a good game sense.
About your proposal, I like it except the part where doesn't matter how many survivors are in one gen. I think it should go from 85% to 150% with 4 survivors or something like that, as if you manage to get that much survivors on one gen you should get something from it. The only problem with this is that SWF would get an upper hand, as they could communicate in which gens people are while SoloQ should use SA or go from gen to gen finding that one survivor that is already in one, or lose time doing the gen solo. So, I don't really see it.
For whatever reason I never saw a notification for this, maybe because it was edited?
I think it sounds like you are conflating 'gen charges' and 'seconds spent on a gen'. At the same time it might just be the phrasing you are using in prior posts as well as this one. My examples are 2 duo'd gens versus 2 solo'd gens (both examples having gens progressed by 2 Survivors).
As far the whole kick vs linger vs free hit I agree in that it is game sense. This, IMO, still is advantageous for the Killer. They can choose to chase Surv 1, chase Surv 2, fake out one Surv to chase the other Surv, or kick a gen for some value (NTH/Eruption/Pop/etc.) at the cost of giving the Survivors free distance. The Killer making a mistake there is on the Killer to make, but a Survivor making a mistake is compounded due to 2 Survivors are there to potentially make a bad call. When I play Killer, all my mistakes are my own to be punished for and learn from, so I don't find it objectionable to lose because of that. Essentially in a 1v1 the better decision wins, but with grouped gens, it would be like playing Rock Paper Scissors and you get to pick which opponent you go against after the throws are revealed. I just think the Killer being able to always choose to chase the weaker Survivor, or the Survivor in the weaker setup, will always tip the scales in the Killer's favor. Essentially we are assuming competency on the Killer's part, as you wouldn't expect a STBFL Killer to turbo tunnel out the Obsession and say it is a dead perk due to that.
I used to think more efficient with more Survs would be better, but then two things stood out as to ruin that. The first was the Deadlock counterplay is to group on gens, and now it is hyperefficient to do so. There could even be a meme build (that would win games) of Vigil/Poised/Sprint Burst where 3 people Sprint Burst (hidden due to poised) and practically insta-pop each gen (and recover their exhaustion in time due to Vigil) while the 'Runner' pre-drops every pallet. The second was bad spawns are made more punishing as if all 4 spawned in shack and the Killer is crossmap, they would pop the gen in 15s (at 150% efficiency per Surv). You literally can't crossmap in that time unless you are Blight or the likes, and the advantage for Killer of Survivors being grouped wouldn't come to fruition unless you are Plague or Legion basically. Maybe if they spawned apart, but it could still run afoul of problem 1. The only 'maybe' thing was exclusively solo gens should probably be still 90s to complete by default. The cost of only 1 gen spot might be too punishing on certain maps when you can run into 2-3 of them.
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@Krazzik said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3576257#Comment_3576257
The medkit nerf was ages ago and widely asked for. Most people agreed that medkits were busted before.
Yes, changing a normal 32s action (2 Survivors spending 16s on an altruistic heal) to 16s with a Brown item was busted. But making all versions the same charge quantity and only a 5% altruism speed difference, with no distinction for 'class' of item, was ludicrous. That would be like in the (inevitable) future toolbox nerf, they remove Sabo speed differentials, set all toolboxes at 50%, and add 2 charges per rarity tier. I still think the Green should lose the self-heal speed inefficiency, and the Purple should have 32 charges and lose the self-heal charge inefficiency, but I won't make a thread asking for those changes.
Edit: That's why I think Blight/Nurse should have the similar nerf hammer brought upon them (mostly add-ons for Blight, but I wouldn't lose sleep with basekit nerfs either), with more reasonable eyes looking at the rest of the Killers.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3576489#Comment_3576489
Yes, again, I heard it all, I understand the logic behind it and I already said that mathematically speaking and in terms of efficiency, spreading progression is the way to go. What you people don't seem to understand is that in your average, everyday match, there are more things happening than just doing gens, specially if you don't have a coordinated full SWF. So, nothing guarantees that those "53 extra seconds" (BTW, in reality are "charges", not seconds, but anyway) would be spent in another generator. If that other survivor is found, downed and hooked before the first gen is done, now those "53 charges" are gone, the killer is free to go to that gen that was progressed by one survivor and disrupt him or regress it with a perk, when if the two did that gen by this time it would be finished and secured.
In a real case, you have to count walk times, healing times, countermeasures time, chase time as a survivor being chased is unable to put any charges or time in doing any of the other things, and of course regression. That's why I said that funnily enough, in this case that you have to take in count all those other factors you guys are committed to stay by just the raw, pure numbers. When the argument is about the math and all those things are irrelevant, then you guys start bringing them to the table.
But again, I never claimed that this is a fact that is true in every single case and situation, in fact what I said is that it was highly debatable that spreading progression is always the best option and I pointed out why.
Either way, if it is not a time save, what is the problem with those 37 seconds being reduced? Because everybody says the same, that is better to spread out and by grouping there is not time saved but lost, but everybody is adamant for BHVR to not make the two survivor base progress penalty higher.
It still takes 90 charges to pop the gen, so I'm not sure why you are saying it would be 53 charges. It takes 2 Survivors ~53s working at .85 charges/second each, instead of 1 charge/second each solo'd, or 3 Survivors ~43s working at .7 charges/second each, or 4 Survivors ~41s working at .55 charges/second each. Each case still requires 90 charges to pop the gen, but varied times to accomplish that same 90 charges.
In real cases it helps the efficiency argument for split gens. That's why many people have been ignoring them to give your case the most benefit possible. If a Killer intercepts a solo gen, 1 Survivor is disrupted. If a Killer intercepts a duo gen, 2 Survivors are disrupted, and they don't get to simply teleport to another gen and keep it progressing, nor do they get to continue to progress the gen they were just on unless they risk giving the Killer a free hit. In addition, take the common jungle gym/shack gen for example. If 2 people are on the gen, the Killer not only gets to pick which Survivor to chase (maybe the unhooked PR Surv, or the death hook for a kill Surv), they also get to pick the Window Survivor or the Pallet Survivor to chase, which could result in an early hit with Bamboozle for the window or pallet break for the Pallet Surv. The Killer is massively advantaged in the 'real example', yet those parts you don't count in it. Those things are far more relevant, but we typically shorter this massive paragraph to "it helps Killer to have Survivors grouped", because we assume people have the capacity to recognize the obvious (although unstated).
'... everyone is adamant for BHVR to not make the two survivor base progress penalty higher.' - Yes, as I said in the first reply in my post (not to you), they should remove the penalty for grouping, and add a penalty for soloing. They should also basekit CoB intel when gens are co-oped, that way Killers can know which gens are being done by multiple Survivors, making it more likely multiple Survivors will interact with the Killer. More Killer/Survivor interaction is better in my eyes, and those changes would facilitate that.
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@LapisInfernalis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3576233#Comment_3576233
Yes it is an issue. I already see this in my matches. I tunnel very rarely, but for some reason the unhooked person "disappears" for a bit (maybe even gets healed) before coming back and dancing in front of my nose. You try to ignore them, but you can't, as they bodyblock you. So you hit them once and then... BOOM.... OTR (I checked, no DH). Or they put their buttcheeks into your face just to DS you (I know it isn't much bit it can cost you the game).
People complain about tunneling, but for some reason they want to get chased to present their perks.....
I think it would be similar to this if there is no collision.
So if there was no collision, and the Killer could literally walk through them, you are saying it would still be a problem? Right...
As far as people post-hook buzzing around like flies, take the Wesker/Plague/Nemmy infection (or other Killer power) or STBFL stack and carry on.
My normal gameplay loop involves Surv A on hook, Surv B attempting the rescue but I try to intercept them, forcing Surv C to now go for the rescue, and Surv D being the only one to pump gens (if they didn't also leave their gen to unhook/heal). That would require some large hoops to jump through in order to force me back on Surv A before they did any CAs.
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@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3575512#Comment_3575512
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/KPFGJ27KZ26I/image.png
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3575538#Comment_3575538
The perk save 6sec per Gen with 15%. And please dont multiply it by 5 because 1 survivor dont do 5 Gens by themselves to make the point of a single perk can save 30sec of Gen.
6sec save is similar to a Brown Toolbox, but its not the same. The difference between complete an 80% Gen in 10sec with a teammate, and complete an 80% Gen is 12sec alone.
Prove thyself forces survivors to grouped together, and grouped together gives killers' advantage.
Exactly, grouping up is an underrated Killer tool. I'm a mad enough lad to think we should reverse gen efficiency numbers, and basekit CoB intel on coop skillchecks. I would have solo gens go at 85% efficiency, and co-op gens (regardless of the number of Survs) go at 100%. Once someone dies, the efficiency penalty would be removed, but the CoB intel for co-op gens would remain.
@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3576064#Comment_3576064
Why it don't surprise me that you somehow got that I said those 37 seconds was from the perk, when I wasn't. Read it again.
And yes, that's what everybody says, and mathematically they are right, 3 survivors in 3 gens are 3c/s pumped on those gens and at 5 gens normally it is preferable to have the progression spread. What they fail to see is that by grouping up they lose charges per second, but again, have 37 additional seconds to do whatever they need to do else (healing, cleaning totems, go to another gen, etc.), gives less time for the killer to come pressure that gen or use a regression perk to affect it, and a gen done can't be regressed anymore. Also, grouping up makes gen regression less effective by either reducing the time lost it produces or recovering that time faster (30 charges done by only one survivor are 30 seconds lost if regressed, while if there was done by 2 survivors only 17.64 seconds are. In the same case, if 2 survivors recover that 30 charges they would do it in those 17.64 instead of the 30 seconds it would take a sole survivor to do it).
About the pressure, the killer can only chase one survivor, and kicking the gen without any perks involved makes the gen regress 4 time slower it can be progressed. So, if 2/3 survivor are on a gen, they only have to wait for the killer to start chasing one of them to continue progressing the gen even if he kicks it, or if the killer stays by the gen to make sure it regresses it would take so much time that the survivors would be able to simply go to another gen and progress it a lot more than lost progress in that first gen.
In other words, funnily enough when the argument is just about pure math people start bringing in other factors that happens in a normal match, but in this case that you have to take in count all those other factors like walk, chase and healing times and such people decide to stick with just raw numbers.
About the 7 seconds:
- Completion time with 2 survivors at base progression: 90 / 1.7 c/s = 52.94 seconds.
- Charges per survivor: 0.85 c/s
- 15% of 0.85 = 0.1275 c/s
- Total progression with old PT: (0.85 + 0.1275) * 2 = 1.955 c/s
- Total completion time with 2 survivors with PT = 90 / 1.955 c/s = 46.035 seconds
- Difference between base vs old PT = 52.94 - 46.035 = 6.905 seconds
- Just for the record, completion time with actual 10% PT is 48.128 seconds. So, the nerf was only 2.093 seconds more.
So yes, those 37 seconds shaved off a gen by just having 2 survivors in it are saved time, as survivors can use that time to invest in other things that they would have to anyway.
They may have gotten one gen, but they lost 15% efficiency in doing so. That is a macro time loss, not a time save. Those 2 Survs could duo 2 gens (teleporting to gens) in ~106s, or solo them in 90s. That basically means only the final gen is an actual real-time save.
@Rizzo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3575679#Comment_3575679
You can find the information by clicking on top of the page on Information Center -> Game Info.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/kb/articles/416-developer-update-november-2023
Is there any chance we could have a 5th tab up top to be 'most recent news' so it would link the most recent patch notes and/or dev update? I legit have only realized after 2 years that that specific link combo is how to find the patch notes, and have had to struggle with sifting through Google giving garbage spam sites not copying all the notes correctly.
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Overnerfed, but I don't care. Nothing of value was lost, and now people won't have a (fake) reason for their losses and might actually have to realize they lost because they need to improve. Who am I kidding, the whiners aren't that self-aware.
BHVR is on a strange butcher spree when it comes to nerfs, particularly to med-kits and the likes. In regards to whoever on the team is responsible for the latest batch of nerfs, I'm curious how they would annihilate Blight and Nurse. I just hope they don't put their sights on Oni/Plague/Artist/Wesker (let alone any weak Killer). Blight and Nurse deserve similar level of med-kit/MfT nerfs, but Oni/Plague only need minor alterations if anything. (3 gen Plague is super annoying, as is Haste Plague. Those could be fixed by cleansing while uninfected to get a limited item to cleanse everything in 3m of its usage [to clean a gen and all people close enough], and PWYF removing a stack on infection puking.)
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Yes, always boop! I'm definitely not just trying to save STBFL stacks since you are the Obsession, nope, not at all.
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@Astel said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3575816#Comment_3575816
I am sorry but since English is not my mother-tongue language, so I have some confusion and I think I need to make sure something. You said "I think OC should get the 1% on failure back, and toss the extra regression aspect away." Does this mean that you think OC now shouldn't regress gens faster anymore, and just grants direct 1% regression to the gen if survivor failed the skill check?
I think to what you are saying yes. It got nerfed I think from 5% to 4% bonus regression on failing the skill check, and still kept the weird 85% ->130% escalating regression, drop the second part, and put it back to 5% instead of the current 4%.
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@LapisInfernalis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3575805#Comment_3575805
How do you know they touched a Gen or not? You don't. So survivors would just let you chase them, do "techs" because they have no collision, then you swing and they have endurance.
This is very tricky when a survivor uses OTR.
Why is this an issue? Someone had to rescue them, and there are 2 other Survivors likely doing gens. There is no realistic situation where you NEED to get the Survivor miliseconds post-unhook. It can always be worked around with current mechanics (maybe chase the rescuer, why is this such a herculean task in these claims?!?!), or easily adjusted like no collision until CA, and if 2 Survivors are 'in each other', it prioritizes the Survivor least recently on hook.
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I think OC should get the 1% on failure back, and toss the extra regression aspect away. CoB can be fully reverted to the release 200%. Alternatively both could be 150% regression but they don't stack with one another. The main issue I think was the lack of earning the regression, as they were happy to buff Pop and PR to arguable better positions than where they were pre-6.1. If excessive 3-gen aspects happen, then the regression aspects could be limited to only work on the most recent gen kicked. I think the intel aspect of CoB is underutilized and largely forgotten about, so that could stay in.
The main reason I think OC should keep the skillcheck, is that it is a Doctor perk. Skillcheck Doctor, as memey as it may be, is always a dumb fun build.
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@LapisInfernalis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3575577#Comment_3575577
Try to chase the rescue when those with endurance body block you over and over until you burnt through all of their endurance
Then remove collision until a CA in the same patch that re-stacks anti-tunnel Endurance, it shouldn't be Rocket Surgery. Such a simple solution for such a non-problem.
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@Crowman said:
Here's how to get 5 health states:
Take a hit with the endurance off unhook.
Take a hit with OTR.
Dead Head.
You've stacked MoM and can take another hit.
We saw how awful endurance stacking was on the PTB as it allowed survivors to weaponize it against the killer, hence why it was removed going live.
Y'know what the Killer can do to bypass that? Chase the rescuer, or wait for a CA like tapping a gen.
People keep mentioning the PTB and didn't realize it was only possible for that to happen when Content Creators purposely went out of their way to make videos. If a Survivor had time to prep Mettle of Man, they already threw and would have won against that Killer without it anyways. What that means is it wouldn't affect the outcome in a different direction from what originally would have been done. Killer was gunna win, still wins, Survivors were gunna win, they still win. It was a joke that could only be set up for, and never naturally occur.
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Just make Anti-Tunnel Endurance not be stopped by, or inflict Deep Wound. All other Endurance is fine to be countered by Deep Wound, but Anti-Tunnel Endurance specifically isn't serving its purpose by being so easily countered.
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There was a ~2 week time frame where he couldn't use power to break pallets, and I honestly can't say if it would be better or not to revert it to that state. Would it make Blight significantly more fair? Yes. Would it be far too clunky? Probably also yes.
One issue is Blight can recover token the milisecond the pallet break animation starts. As long as they can make it so the tokens start to recover AFTER the pallet break is completed, then I think that would be good enough. Currently as long as Adren Vial Blight used 4 or fewer tokens, and normal Blight used 2 tokens, it is just too oppressive to recover token during the break.
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@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3574856#Comment_3574856
No one is going to run MFT just to counter Legion.
If someone is running MFT on the new patch, they are likely comboing it with another perk that grant endurance.
Try me, I will run MfT / Desperate Measures / Lucky Break / Leader, and no Legion Main can stop me! MWUHAHAHAHA!
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@Beatricks said:
Revert the stun duration nerf of DS. Also remove the skill check, it serves absolutely zero purpose.
To be fair, saving DS for later used to be a reasonable proposition when it still worked in endgame.
In general I'd agree with DS back to 5s and Self-Care up to 45% (just enough to be better altruistic heal without perks or items), but I don't think it should be a Feng styled equal attention skin or Killer/Survivor equal attention patch. Those buffs stand on their own merits.
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Strangely enough I've only really run into these maps as Killer, and they all just feel super Killer sided. I would play weaker Killers, make a bunch of mistakes (mostly regarding the event), and still win most of my matches (to a degree higher than my normal winrate). It could just be Survivors not being used to them, but it also could be the low quality of the loops. Fake Ironworks seems to be particularly bad, as it seems to spawn 2-3 hills every time, that aren't even facing into a loop to help Survs make it not worthless map space.
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I'm afraid that even with the extra blades needed, this will just be an even more annoying version of him to face.
He gets the full on 4.6, so I would loosely lump him in the Nemesis/Pyramid Head/Xeno category with a rough max effective range of ~20m (if the Surv holds W, which often was all you could do as Surv).
You can't even loop small rocks tightly anymore against him, so I'm not sure what innate counterplay will exist.
I think basement and proxy camping got a needless buff, because you don't care if they burnt your main event, you just throw 6 blades and get it again and can shred through basekit BT and the rescuer.
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I find it funny that they buffed it against Legion and Deathslinger, but nerfed it against Blight/Nurse/Clown/Trapper. Such a strange turn of events.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3574547#Comment_3574547
We absolutely do include OC/CoB/Eruption in the trade. They were massively powerful, and got heavily nerfed.
The only thing we learned from this update, is that most people really don't care about the gap between solo q and SWF, and they only complain about the gap when they want survivor buffs. There were SO MANY PEOPLE that were completely happy with shoving the healing speed nerf disproportionally onto solo q. Seriously, where were the "what about solo q" arguments, when people were suggesting that only self-healing speeds should be nerfed?
That would be like saying they buff Blast Mine to a 20s stun, and it being nerfed back down to 4s was an equal trade for a 2s reduction nerf on Lethal. They (medkits and O/CoB/ruption) aren't remotely comparable with how busted those degen 3gen perks were.
Med-kits have been needing a 'fix' for quite some time. They used to be able to turn a Survivor 32s action (16+16) into a 16s or 10.66s action, with no meaningful usage altruistically. Now they can take ~24s-21s (total Survivor seconds) to heal altruistically (one and a half times), or 24s to heal personally. People knew med-kits were getting nerfed, but they couldn't imagine BHVR's decision to make the only difference in rarity tier be a 5% altruistic heal speed. I personally still wanted the Green Medkit identity of faster self-healing, and the Purple Medkit identity of 2 basekit heals. Both could have been done by removing the speed reduction on Green, and the item inefficiency on Purple (and leaving it at 32 charges). When you are working within a limited space, suggestions (such as mine) tend to be ignored in favor of their more sweeping changes to 'send a message'.
Essentially, med-kits needed a nerf, when the problem was selfish healing. Sadly that means soloq is going to be disproportionately impacted because med-kits in soloq or SWF were giving the equivalent of We'll Make It time save on a brown item. I think Self-Care should be buffed back up to 45%, just enough that altruistic healing is more efficient, but also still possible for self-healing. That would help soloq plenty.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3574491#Comment_3574491
Survivors were originally planned to have nerfed healing speeds to ALL forms of healing, in exchange for killers having their gen regression/slowdown perks heavily nerfed.
Guess what happened???!??? Survivors complained so much that the altruistic healing speed nerfs got reverted, which WIDENS the gap between solo q and SWF..... but killers still got their gen regression/slowdown perks heavily nerfed.
Wow, Survivors really got the short end of the stick there if that truly was the case. PR is better 1-6 hooks (when it matters most, as a 3v1 is a free win with gens remaining, and 6 hooks means 2k, 1k, or 2 on death hook), Pop is better at 67 gen seconds (which is most often the hotly contested gens), and medkits have no meaningful diversity.
That is unless you were counting the likes of OC/CoB/Eruption, then that's just silly. A literal (non-human) animal could win matches understanding how to use a spacebar due to those perks being so overtuned.
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@CountOfTheFog said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3574495#Comment_3574495
Interested in your opinion on how power of two makes soloq weaker? Isn't that the perk that let's two survivors who finished a gen together get a 5% repair speed for 75 seconds?
Friendly Competition is the gen one, and that also nerfs Survs. You spend ~53s at 85% efficiency just to get 105% solo or 90% duo efficiency on the next timeframe. Deja Vu's 6% unconditional boost and timeframe is almost exclusively better. (There is an argument that you duo the gen that you spawn on, and both of you solo gens after that, but it takes too long to reach gens that won't 3 gen you for that to be worth it. Deja Vu ensures you always work on the current best 3 gen for the boost.)
Power of Two is the 5% haste if the 2 people stay within 12m of each other post-heal. Soloq will throw to meme with this, and SWFs will only do it for the tunnel victim. Even then it kinda is still throwing to stay 12m from each other that whole time.
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Every MfT is the absence of a Sprint Burst, so I like MfT as Killer. Every Lethal Pursuer is an afk punishment, so I like Lethal Pursuer as Survivor.
Knockout is arguably the perk most deserving of an alteration. Similarly maybe Teamwork: Power of Two and/or Blood Pact are probably the most deserving of an alteration on Survivor side. All of those perks make SWFs stronger, and soloq weaker. Not a good thing to encourage.
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For everyone saying the pre 6.1.0 meta (DS/UB/BT/DH/IW) was worse for Killers to deal with, I have to hard disagree. 3 of them are hard disabled by chasing anyone other than the rescuer, and the other 2 provide the same 'they get injured and get value for free' problem MfT and Resilience both are claimed to have. Being able to disable 2/3 of the Survivors perks is MASSIVE. Now you can disable 1/2 of the Survivors perks through skill (Hope/Adren), but if all are playing hyper-gen efficient (which luckily Survivors rarely ever do), you can't always stop them in time. I think the current Surv meta is less enjoyable to deal with as Killer.
Killer meta for Surv though, gotta hard agree with the degen 3gen kick meta. A smart pig or dolphin or dog could win a match with a spacebar alone in that meta. Someone else coined 'MMR-inflation', and I think many Killers got free wins thinking they were skilled. The perks artificially inflated their MMR above their weight-class, and now they are losing a bunch and thinking the game was wrong for their losses. They are partially correct, the past of the game (degen 3gen kick) was responsible for their current losses, not the present.
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Since MMR isn't optional, the only mode is ranked. You can play ranked Survivor, ranked Killer, or customs.
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@Akumakaji said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3573640#Comment_3573640
November 28th, maybe December 2nd, 42k Iri Shards. (NOT sharts! I might not be a native speaker, but I'll never make that humiliating mistake again).
Thank yuh kindly
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@caipt said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3573611#Comment_3573611
They should just remove kobe's and 2nd stage skill checks all together. They dont really add much. Kobe's are inconsistent, relatively rare, frustrating to go against, and only really serve to prolong a match or grant an unearned opportunity to clutch. And struggle skill checks only exist to make an actual difference between 1st and second stage. None of these things are worth the nonsense of hook suicides.
I think too many people will start to go fully AFK while hooked, and not pay attention to the game at large. If you alt-tab back in and go, 'oh how long was I unhooked for, my BT is gone and the Killer is trying to hook someone else here oh crap'. That is probably what they are trying to avoid by letting you 'play the game' on hook.
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Where Iri Shard?
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@dbdthegame Have you used Adren Vial+Shredded Notes much? Whenever I've used it, it just feels so oppressive and doesn't give Survivors a chance to play, that is unless the map is nothing but those Ormond style filler pallets. A worst case scenario 4s CD for rushing is ridiculous. I haven't played double speed enough to gauge the difference between the two combos.
Edit: I just feel I can hold W at those Ormond filler loops and rush down people otherwise.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3573170#Comment_3573170
I agree with your post, I just think it's a funny coincidence:
I'd say 20% worthless is far worse than ~3% worthless.
You'd be amazed how many people seem to think that 3% = 20% right now, actually.
Lets not have that discussion here. I understand what they are saying there, but I disagree with them, as I learned how to M1 chase as 110 Killers.
@Ganksy_TTV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3573295#Comment_3573295
Watch a competitive match some time
Comp matches are a joke, kinda like Smash, because they create such a foreign environment from the real game that it barely is comparable (1v1 no maps no items VS 4 person free for all or 2v2 all maps all items, and more gamemodes than stock only). 4 Survivors on perfect comms deliberately taking 115s on hook is far from the norm, especially since (from the last stats available) ~60% of players are soloq, with descending odds for each SWF size (something like 25% duo, 10% trio, 5% full 4-SWF).
@Ganksy_TTV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3573170#Comment_3573170
I'll give the 8 hook thing a try, it sucks being talked to so disrespectful every game.while.tryinf to learn but I'll get through it ig. Don't really see the point though. My chase game is fine. I get my reads on loops and I've studied them. It doesn't mean much, but I hit iridescent 1 in my.first 50 hours of both killer and survivor. I'm no stranger to competitive games and while I'm obviously letting my frustration talk,.my frustrations are based in reality and what I would consider to be reasonable
The point of the 8 hook strat is to find the '5 gen chase Surv' (if they exist) and find a way to win against them in chase, or leave them if you recognize they are wasting your time. The game is designed for Killer to win chase with a hit in ~30s tops, as Bloodlust kicks in at 15s and BL 2 @ 25s, and BL 3 @ 35s. It mostly is so that macro skills are developed. When to drop chase is actually one of the harder things to learn, and 'feeling' a gen about to pop/getting pumped and deciding 'I need to interrupt that instead of chase this person in an area with no gens' is also important. Put short, develop macro more than micro, but macro is too hard to teach, and will naturally occur going for 8 hooks before kills. Just don't let the Survivor run you in a place that has no value to the rest of the match.
As far as Iri 1, that is basically a playtime indicator within a month. It used to be more harsh with losing points or 'pips' when it was used as the matchmaking system, but they swapped it to a BP reward instead. Once they did that, you can depip, but never to lower beyond your current rank, so if you got Iri 3 0 pips, lost a match, before you'd drop to Iri 4 full pips. Now you stay at lowest Iri 3 0 pips until you get enough pips to rank up to Iri 2, then that becomes the soft low cap.
While I don't agree with the specific numbers put in this vid, the core concept is mostly correct (I'd say you could be as much as half or double in the brackets he gave, so Advanced 2600hr would be a range of 1300-5200hr varying person to person). Eventually Killer players are able to develop enough skill to win without powers, only perks and the basic M1 framework, and without camping/tunneling/slugging with a 92% winrate.
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@Akumakaji said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/KI72FQ6I7VT3/image.png
Is this a photo bomb, or is this art?
I miss when you could see the HUD during Moris. I wish at least it was a toggle in the options.
I used to run Devour Ghostie with the goal of a picture of every Survivor (in the match). If they photobombed/joined in on the fun, they got to live since I got their picture. It was more fun because they never knew why I was letting some of them go until endgame chat. (Edit: This Meg was the only one to live in that match, but the other Meg died.)
But yeah OP, people are just having fun since the Killer is animation locked. Sometimes they'll sexually harass the Killer, sometimes they'll t-bag the Surv victim, sometimes they just stand there... menacingly.
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Viable Perks - Both sides have about 10 viable perks, 20 decent but better alternatives in the top 10, 30 meme or situation perks, and the remainder are worthless perks. Don't pretend Survivors are advantaged by the likes of Poised and Solidarity, just as you wouldn't pretend Killers are advantaged by Bloodhound and Predator.
Items and add-ons - Again, don't pretend that Keys are as powerful as Toolboxes, as you wouldn't pretend Pyramid Head's add-ons are as powerful as Blight's. Keys and Pyramid Head's add-ons are a joke, but Pyramid Head is 1 Killer among 30+, and Keys are 1 item among 5. If you want to bark up that tree, I'd say 20% worthless is far worse than ~3% worthless.
Cosmetics - I suggest you look at apples to apples yet again. Feng and Blight, against Quentin and Freddy. Kate and Huntress, against Twins and Haddie.
Voices - This is such a hilarious misnomer. Who can honestly say they are a dedicated, refuse to even touch the other side, main? Even most content creators are Killer mains, but don't exclusively play Killer. Otz/Tofu/Scott/CoconutRTS and so on are all Killer mains, but that just means >50% of playtime is on Killer. Even then, I wouldn't want to listen to any dedicated main, because they clearly lack the perspective of both sides. They would have no clue how annoying being bled out or 5 gen ran is. They would lack the perspective, and have nothing of value to add to the conversations. Even endgame chat is on the player to read. You can simply click the box to close the chat and check the BP stats and perks in peace. To be fair, not having a default off toggle option I think is a fair complaint.
Also Survs whined to do gens faster and they got it? 1.2.1 Gen capacity increased to 70 (from 65) and added a 10% coop penalty, 1.5.0 gen capacity increased to 80, 1.8.0a kick speed reduced from 3s to 2s, 3.7.0 coop penalty increased to 15% and Great Skill check reduced from 2% to 1%, 6.1.0 Gen capacity increased to 90 and kick speed reduced to 1.8 and added a basekit 2.5% regression penalty on kick. There literally hasn't been a single gen buff on the side of Survivor in the history of the game. If you want to get into perks, only BTL+Streetwise as well as Resilience helps Survs, and everything else is mostly a joke. Quick Gambit? Friendly Competition? Yeah, no.
Legion power stops with bodyblock, you realize you can move 5.2 by the base power alone right, 5.4 if you already stabbed that person? I don't think a 35% speed boost is going to allow for a bodyblock, and if they telegraph a block, you can easily end power early and down the injured Surv. Even such an alleged low tier Killer like Clown is strong when you know how to play as him, so this seems like more time exploring alternative uses to powers would be greatly helpful. I like to joke: 'A Clown's winrate is directly proportional to the percentage of Yellow Bottles used'.
Overall I'd suggest playing to intentionally 8 hook then first kill on the 9th hook. You will naturally develop the skills to pressure Survivors, and only winning (and increasing MMR) when you were better than every Survivor in the lobby. Since there will be a spread of skill levels, you will always have at least 1 person to learn and improve off of. There may be a lot of losses, but it will stabilize and eventually you will win all matches without much effort.
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I think a full on aura would be bad, but I think a Rancor styled gen pop outline for spawn locations would be great. Everyone knows that the Killer knows spawn locations, Lethal can still be used to see where they go (or hide in a locker) and to still synergize with other aura perks, and that friggin AFK soloq teammate will know they are sabotaging the team and will stop being AFK for the first 30s. Corrupt I similarly think is better for the Killer to be forced to bring. It honestly isn't that good on most Killers, and often sabotages the ones who would want to use it the most (trap Killers setting up, as it causes them to end up forcing people into their trap zone to disarm them early and often).
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3572535#Comment_3572535
You consider Ghosty, Clown, and Bubba high-tier?
I am talking about blight and Oni in demon fury in which you mention as infectious fright as some sort of counter to flashlights. you can still get flashlight saves vs stronger killer but you have to be more careful around some killers.
If you are legit thinking 3 people are busy in chases and only 1 is pumping gens, you are saying the match will take 7.5 mins to pump the gens.
you missed key sentence in my previous post. When there are 1 or 2 generators remaining, flashlight saves become more detrimental the killer because killer is not progressing the game while survivor can use their 4vs1 advantage to keep progressing the game while preventing killer from getting hooks. so no it does not take 7:20 minutes. It takes somewhere between 90 seconds and 180 seconds to finish the game. This number can go up and down because you can sometimes have 2 people on 2 separate generators.
The IF/FH perk possibilities tell you when to slug until a hit and when to pick up in general.
I thought you were specifically talking about regression vs gen stacking in that post, not saves in general, as you didn't mention them in that paragraph. To that I would say it is quite easy to win the game before they even reach 1-2 gens. A normal start should have at most 2 gens pop, as the hook should come in and either the Killer Pop or PR a gen before it can be finished. Then they are stuck in the 1/1/1/1* death spiral even if the Killer had a weak start with 2 gens being finished shortly after the first hook.
* 1 on hook/being healed, 1 in chase, 1 en route to rescue/healing after hook, 1 on gens.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3572431#Comment_3572431
The regression example fails because you don't twiddle your thumbs waiting for the gen to regress. You actively play the game.
In your example, you said that killer interrupts the gen. ok who cares? if he interrupts gen, the gen takes forever regress, you just work on another gen. If killer leaves gen, you finish it.
You keep conflating a flashlight save attempt and a flashlight save success, so I'm curious, how often do you think flashlight saves actually work? In a normal match, with roughly equal Survivor and Killer skill, I'd give it 25% odds in the best case scenario.
25%? if 1 person is in dying state and two people are going for flashlight save, it is not 25%. it is easily 90-100% especially if survivor purposely out in the open when he gets hit. 2 players that have 99% SB/Background player will almost consistently flashlight save. the last person is on a gen somewhere.
I run plenty of intel perks, for example Iri Cam on Ghosty is a god-send. That basically reduces pickup saves by any means down to less than 1% success rates. Clown Cigar Box similarly hard counters save attempts. Infectious Fright and/or Forced Hesitation seen not too uncommonly on Oni/Blight/Bubba also significantly reduces the efficacy of saves.
your talking about counters to flashlight and using high-tier killers to showcase that flashlight saves can be risky because of chance of getting slugged. i do not think it is so clear cut because flashlight have considerable range. you don't need stand right next to the survivor to perform flashlight save. by default flashlight have 10 meter distance. with like purple add-on, high end sapphire len's, it becomes 12.5 meters. this is not global or anything but you can flashlight save for a considerable distance if you know pick-up animation perfectly. Getting angle is biggest challenge for flashlight saves. The angle is given for 2 people going for saves but not so much for 1 player. 1 player is 50/50 depending on angle of survivor pick-up. you need flashbang to get ~ near 100% saves as solo but that costs a perk slot and is a lot more limiting.
So if the gen is interrupted I didn't say it was even kicked, simply that they cannot progress it due to the threat of Surv A being in chase, and Surv B giving a free hit if they pump the gen. You would decide whether to kick or chase dependent on the circumstances. I wouldn't waste time kicking a gen without perks if I wasn't hypermobile like Wraith/Blight. Even then I might not only Eruption a gen, if it would cost me a hit to do so.
I was being generous assuming only 1 person is going for saves. If you are legit thinking 3 people are busy in chases and only 1 is pumping gens, you are saying the match will take 7.5 mins to pump the gens. You basically are going to have 2 people bled out by then even if you never got a hook (as if they threaten the save to such an extent, the Killer will have 2 Survs on the ground before attempting pickups). Even then they can't permanently be un-exhausted. So lets take the 90% success rate (which I think is absurdly high and basically saying the Killer is a baby and doesn't understand the basic mechanics of the game, but whatever) so you get the hook 1 in 10 times. Even a powerless M1 would get enough injuries and downs that they could easily win after the first hook. The 1st Surv has to be unhooked, the 2nd is chased, and the 3rd can't leave the hooked Surv to die in order to threaten the blind, so the 4th is still progressing gens and hooks will flow easily as normal.
You consider Ghosty, Clown, and Bubba high-tier? I mean I know I'm good at Ghosty, but I wouldn't consider him anywhere above the dead average middle. 3/5 Killers I listed are in the bottom half, so you ignored the majority of my point to make something up. Again, you are assuming Survivors are permanently un-exhausted here. It would take 30s tops to down someone injured (barring god pallet delays), so they still have 10s where they can't save unless they Killer gift-wraps it for them. This again is all assuming the Killer isn't injuring and downing multiple Survs before pickup in the case of multi-blind attempts. So again, baby Killer gift-wrapping blinds for Survs for no good reason has 100%, Killer who uses their brain, far far far less. Even if the 4th Survivor is a SWF with a giga-toolbox and BTL, teleporting between gens, that would shorten it to ~6m of gen time, which would only require 2/3rd downtime to get 3 bleedout kills, easily accomplished if you are expecting blinds the entire match, but I would think hooking them would kill them faster so I'd just do that. Plus on top of that, the normal Flashlight can only get 8 max blinds, and most people attempt chain blinds reducing the number all the lower, on top of people not doing frame perfect blinds for perfect charge protection.
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@GannTM said:
Only thing toxic here was the survivors going into a corner to give the killer no chance to get a hook. There’s literally nothing a killer can do here other than bleed them out. These survivors are just sore losers and don’t wanna admit to getting outplayed. I guess that’s just human nature though.
That is a macro failing on Killer to ever fall prey to permanently destroyed hooks. If they are the only Surv, I can understand if this is the last eye-for-an-eye uncouth behavior to match uncouth behavior, but nearly all maps have 2 hooks accessible from all corners. The only way this is a toxic move by Survs, is a full Breakdown squad intentionally going down in the same corner. The only problem with that is, they can't progress the gens on the ground, and will eventually bleed themselves out. Now I'm not saying the Survivors would be right in saying the Killer is toxic, just everyone in the match is a fool. Like the old Buckin' Bronco on RPD's third floor Library, if you choose to go down where no hook is, you choose to die to bleedout.
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@TheBoop said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3572168#Comment_3572168
Where did I write impossible to avoid?
I said it's possible to force it, which is true. You can try to either vault to bait grab, if killer doesn't pay attention, or just annoy killer with flashlight / bodyblock and if killer tries to go for you, then go into locker.
5 seconds stun was an issue, because paired with Unbreakable, survivor was basically untouchable. I have no idea how you fail to understand 25 seconds would be game over and survivors would definetly try to force it way more.
By sheer virtue of the possibility to force, you are saying it is impossible to avoid. Every method for the Killer required idiocy, or a lack of awareness. Especially since they can simply chase the rescuer. It isn't some herculean task to chase the rescuer, that is normal gameplay. They (the DS Surv) can force a bodyblock hit at worst, and the Killer can just leave them slugged. They voluntarily gave you ~24s of slowdown and a burning of UB that they no longer can use, or 32s and another person is forced to pick them up. That does nothing to prevent you from continuing the chase on the rescuer.
This is also all assuming the Killer never found someone else and intercepted their rescue attempt, or harried their gen. The level of hoops where a DS has to activate is like you expect Killers to afk 17m away from hook and immediately turbo-tunnel every match. That works in soloq only because you can't reject a hook rescue, and people try to farm a save for their points/perks/challenges.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3572169#Comment_3572169
The only way to blind against a wall is with a Flashbang, and they weren't pumping gens to get a Flashbang, so it is impossible in normal circumstances to get a rescue.
this is why i talked about tactically going down in open spaces allows SWF to use flashlights to save survivor easier because there is not as many walls. you want go down near walls so that person who is trying to go for save can "stealth" but the killer has to pick up survivor out in the open. Yes, you are correct that flashbang is far superior to flashlight for saves but this is because flashbang requires the survivor to work on generators compare to flashlight. It is inherent more limited in # of uses unless you bring like 4 flashbang perks or something but that a lot of perk to devote to this gameplay where as flashlight costs 0 perks.
A gen in 53s is preferable to a gen in 90s, and it is safer to have the final Surv on a different gen in case the Killer interrupts
not necessarily. if there 1 or 2 gens remaining and gen are spread out, the killer spends like 20-30 seconds of walking to go across map. Suppose he successful does interrupt gen, what exactly does he accomplish on 60% gen for example? The killer regression is 4x slower. for that gen to regress fully, it takes 240 seconds to regression. 240 second is 4 MINUTES. 4 minutes is eternity. you can finish 2 other gens before that gen regresses to 0. If he interrupts, you just start another gen across the map. if he camps gen, you just get free progression elsewhere. If he doesn't camp gen then you just finish it. The only caveat is that you need to NOT be in 3 gen setup to push gens like this. that is why it is important to do correct gens in early game so your late game is easy. Of course, if you face killer that just camps 3 gens from the start than that is inherently going to be different game.
Having the 'fast gen' and the 'slow gen' is still far more valuable than an extra hook is the vast majority of circumstances.
it depends. flashlight saves save hook-states but when you have 3 hook-states, you can spend hook-states as resource. from hook 1 -> hook 2, you have safest flashlight save because if it works, you delay killer a lot but if it fails then the person goes to 2nd hook. from 2nd hook ->3rd hook, you lose 1 survivor which is very big. you should not suicide to save survivor but if you get flashlight save, then it is pretty big because killer will tunnel the person on hook and every second that is chasing is extra gen-time for your team. The thing is that when you flashlight save a killer, it is harder to do it again because killer is more attentive to try avoid it.
If you doubt what I'm saying, go into soloq with Empathy and/or Bond, and watch the flashlight Survivor single-handedly throw the game for 10-15 minutes, forcing you and the other genning Surv have to carry them and pick up the slack.
Soloq is not going use flashlight correctly because flashlights require coordination. They can use it correctly and if they bond or empathy, they're more likely to use it correctly but it is not guaranteed. It is same how soloq will not use bodyblocking correctly with adrenaline or unbreakable bodyblocking or acquiring healing or end game hook saves which is really simple. right? It is just take a hit, hold-w, unhook and bodyblock to exit gate but even if that simple teamwork action is difficult. with stbfl, it just two people take a hit but even that is too much.
so how well this stuff works is highly dependent on your MMR level and your teammates. Flashlight are not useless. it is how player uses them that matters.
The regression example fails because you don't twiddle your thumbs waiting for the gen to regress. You actively play the game. You chase Survivors, you hook Survivors, you kill Survivors. Especially if you have perks such as Pop/Eruption/Pain Res. In my example I was assuming 3 Survivors are free, and 1 is in chase with 1 gen remaining. Personally I think a trio gen in ~43s doesn't save enough time compared to the versatility of a ~53s and a backup 90s gen, and losing a Survivor to attempt saves doesn't provide as much value as the 37s of gen time the duo offers, but that's just my assessment of low odds saves.
You keep conflating a flashlight save attempt and a flashlight save success, so I'm curious, how often do you think flashlight saves actually work? In a normal match, with roughly equal Survivor and Killer skill, I'd give it 25% odds in the best case scenario. Do you think it is vastly different? I run plenty of intel perks, for example Iri Cam on Ghosty is a god-send. That basically reduces pickup saves by any means down to less than 1% success rates. Clown Cigar Box similarly hard counters save attempts. Infectious Fright and/or Forced Hesitation seen not too uncommonly on Oni/Blight/Bubba also significantly reduces the efficacy of saves. Not to even mention if you have had a Flashlight Surv pestering you like a fly, you know to expect them there, and can easily prevent the save with an unmelted brain. Other Killers have various basekit intel features like Plague vomiting, or even Freddy's glowing dream Survs. So again, at what rate do you realistically expect saves to occur at compared to attempts?
Soloq isn't going to use flashlights correctly, well just a heads up, soloq is 60% of the game. So even if somehow they could always succeed in SWF, it would sit at an adjusted 40% save rate. I don't think soloq v SWF is nearly as black and white as this, but that is because I would say the saves are down to near nothing for both sides. The other night I just had a tunneling Legion and a duo continually doing pallet (Flip-Flop/Power Struggle) and flashy saves. The problem, was it forced 2 people on gens the entire time, and if they had simply not done stupid acts in the first place (rescuing 12m from the Legion), they wouldn't be in that situation to force the non-duo to pump gens. Eventually the tunneled Survivor died, and we finished the gens. I opened one gate, but the flashlight Survivor duo member still alive refused to unhook, refused to open the other gate while I went for the rescue (I pointed at the other gate and ran to hook). Sadly the other Surv thought she opened it, reached it closed, and died. Luckily (although technically planned) I was able to Deliverance to safety and the flashy Surv hard left. They justified their negligent homicide of the other Surv because she (gen Surv) interacted with the event for her tome... That is how Flashlights melt people's brains, and give Killers (2 in my example) free kills for no good reason.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3572066#Comment_3572066
right so that why you use background player or SB to reduce risk factor of it. one thing to note is that because survivor has such overwhelming advantage in early game, as long you finish the gens closest to center/break 3 gens on the specific map, the large gen spread means that the killer cannot patrol gen effectively. as a result, when roughly 1-2 gens remain, you don't really need 3 people on generators anymore. you just need killer to not get hooks. yes it becomes slower to finish gens but if killer is not getting any hooks, your progressing generators while killer is accomplishing nothing. Maybe they're breaking few pallets but as long killer does not break the entire map than it really does not matter.
They still aren't pumping gens for the vast majority of the time. Also if the Survivor was looping, they typically are within a Jungle Gym or a wall with a pallet. The only way to blind against a wall is with a Flashbang, and they weren't pumping gens to get a Flashbang, so it is impossible in normal circumstances to get a rescue. A gen in 53s is preferable to a gen in 90s, and it is safer to have the final Surv on a different gen in case the Killer interrupts. Having the 'fast gen' and the 'slow gen' is still far more valuable than an extra hook is the vast majority of circumstances.
If you doubt what I'm saying, go into soloq with Empathy and/or Bond, and watch the flashlight Survivor single-handedly throw the game for 10-15 minutes, forcing you and the other genning Surv have to carry them and pick up the slack.
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@TheBoop said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3571977#Comment_3571977
It doesn't change a fact that it is possible to force it and it was issue with just 5 seconds stun. You would want 25 seconds without power, if that happens on 110% killer, you can just DC. That's it, for 25 seconds you are completely useless. Only way how to come back from that would be actually tunneling someone out of the game, seems like that kinda fails on it's purpose.
The fact that it is avoidable makes it impossible to avoid? I'm sure you must be confused or mistyped or something. It isn't like the Survivor player held a gun to the Killer player's head to force them to locker grab or tunnel and pick up. It is 100% avoidable in normal scenarios. The only time it isn't avoidable, is a Kobe/Deliverance as the last living Survivor as their teammates die on hook. At that point, close hatch to end DS, or slug for a minute and follow them on the ground.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3571778#Comment_3571778
so good survivors always used 99% SB to use flashlights. that is why i don't understand scott's opinion for example that says flashlight is worst item in the game.
Being able to give your teammate a second life is crazy strong. It is just that doing 99% SB flashlight took a lot of skill to use it. With background player, you don't need to run SB anymore so just use it as filler perk to flashlights. Saying flashlight take no skill is undermining action. most survivor actions don't take skill once you learned how to utilize the perk/item in question. My suspicious towards popular scott opinion that Flashlight = useless item is that survivors were trying use them without using 99% SB so they see it as an easy counter to look away but no. flashlight are really good when the player is knows how to use them with haste.
Another skill-cap of flashlights is how you go down as survivor. one of issues for why soloq flashlight is hard is because survivor in soloq cannot see aura of teammates so the downs can happen at bad places where survivor is facing an easy wall for killer to look at. if you go down in strategic places like out in the open, then flashlight become exponential easier. there is also element of stealth. if you make killer believe no one is there, they might pick up at wrong angle and that also makes flashlight easier.
My understanding of his reasoning is you have 1 person never on a gen for 90% of the game when they could be, attempting the flashlight save, and only getting the save 1 in 10 times at best. The loss of gen time coupled with the low success rate makes it so they set their team up for failure, even on the matches where they get the lucky save.
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@HugTechLover said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3571957#Comment_3571957
You’re telling me, excluding the time you WAIT to get into a lobby, you sit in the actually game lobby for 10-15 minutes getting dodged over and over?
I’m not talking about matchmaking time.
And no, I don’t believe it. Refer to my results.
I've had this happen as well, but my highest Surv (Zarina) is only P25(?).* At least once a week I've had one of those rotating lobbies, where the Killer backs out, then 1 or 2 Survs back out, then a Surv pops in, then Killer back in, then the Killer leaves because only 3 Survs, then as the Killer leaves the 4th Surv pops in, then the oldest Surv other than me leaves, then the Killer pops in and insta leaves because 3, then......... and so on. Like I said though, only about once a week for me. I think they might have negativity bias that the weekly occurrence is instead a daily occurrence, or something like that.
*(I tend to only spend BP on Killers for P9 [for charms], then add-ons, but only sink my BP into 1 Survivor, so only Xeno isn't P9 at this point, then Survivors P9 is up next. The problem is I have about 5 Killers I really like playing so I have them between P10-25, but I digress.)