mizark3
mizark3
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The only reason I don't feel Blight's (general) collision doesn't need to be a priority, is the Killer is so easy and so oppressive, when I slide off like butter into the ether, I still have a millennia to catch back up and down them in chase. If the bump fatigue increased based on tokens used like Nurse, then sure/maybe, I'd think it should be more of a priority, but it is simply too easy to 'get back in the fight' as Blight as is.
I am against bug exploits for everyone, (but less harsh for meme perks or weaker Killers) so I'd take the trade of no more bugtech for no more staggerless vaults in a heartbeat.
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To 'normalize' the strength of DS, it should do 2 things. 1 (and more importantly), disable power for 5s/gen remaining. No Nurse Blinks for 25s if you tunnel at 5 gens. 2, disable haste effects for the same duration (less important, but still good to do). Clown and Skull Merchant shouldn't get an advantage in tunneling if they get access to their haste effects, nor should any get PWYF benefits or any other haste boosts.
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After some more games as both sides, it seems like when I do one thing I win, and when I don't I lose. Open the rift as healthy Surv, and get 1 ghost. If the Killer enters, it is a free win for Surv if they got a ghost, and an instaloss if they didn't. If Surv enters while injured, and Killer is near a portal, enter and get a free down. If you see a portal open as Killer, get 1 ghost, and if there are no Survs (with haste), either get more ghosts to deny, or exit while the speed and stealth are fresh. It feels boring how little skill is involved, and only free wins for either side, so I'm not the biggest fan overall.
It also is strange how Killer gets Haste/Undetectable/Brutal/Unrelenting, but Survivor gets Haste/Endurance/Leader/old BTL. Unrelenting is nowhere in the ballpark of old BTL, and fake Brutal doesn't last long enough to be as useful as fake Leader. Undetectable also doesn't help Killers that already have a source of Undetectable, since they have audio cues to reveal them. So you are better off being a ninja Clown or Wesker with a strong chase potential amplified by the stealth. I had to drop Ghosty entirely for the event in favor of Clown, maybe some Legion later.
The biggest problem is the lack of visual cues that someone is under the effects of a ghost effect. They seriously need to glow blue or something, I don't know how they could have forgotten that most basic design element.
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I'm with you, I want solo'd gens to be less efficient. Sadly some Killers will die on the hill that co-op gens are too fast, despite being slowed down currently... I even showed that a strong event/commodious toolbox basically functions as a co-op member on a gen, so maybe solo numbers should be looked at, but they took it they opposite way to think co-op gens are too fast, solo is fine. You will have to fight through 'your own side' in order to get the changes you want. When that person ignored the blatant math that solo gens are better, I knew I couldn't reason with them using logic, and I'm not the best at appeal to emotion arguments, so I gave up, and considered them a lost cause.
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I've barely got to touch the event, but it seems so weird. There are no visual cues for when Survivors have Haste or Endurance effects. You'd think they'd glow blue to match the event, or maybe my game is bugged and just doesn't show the effects when graphics are on max. Heck, the freaking event Blight Serum has better telegraphs, how did they not learn?!?! I swung 2-3s after a DH read, and the Surv still had Endurance, and I didn't realize it was because of the event. It is super frustrating as Killer to not know why things happen, and this event cranks that to 11.
At the very least have an in-game tutorial, not a bland text screen that doesn't even give numbers. "The Haste effect for improved movement speed" How friggin' much, and for how long?!?! "The Endurance status effect to withstand being downed" Again, for how freaking long?!?! This numerical info NEEDS to be in there if they want to pretend they are explaining the mechanics, otherwise its a joke. You are inflicted with the blindness status effect as Killer while in the Void, but it doesn't tell you that, and it doesn't make the hooks particularly visible unless you've played before and know the locations. I walked past 3 without knowing until I found one I already walked by. This is just the worst possible learning experience, and it appears to be designed to be as frustratingly confusing as possible through the (what appears to be intentional) obfuscation of the mechanics.
I'm sure when I've played it for a week or so I'll get the hang of it, but the introduction is horrendously bad. Just explain things, please. The wall of texts with bad scroll bars in-game explain nothing of importance, so I don't know why they even bothered to write up a worthless novel. NUMBERS NUMBERS NUMBERS! They wasted time on a tome cinematic showcasing the garbage skins, but they needed a tutorial cinematic in-game when first going to the Haunted By Daylight tabs, and a button to view it again if you clicked through in queue or just too quickly not expecting a cinematic tutorial.
The original Snowman event was simple and fun, and different Killers could use their power to bypass the extra hit the snowman could provide, allowing for interesting mechanical interactions. This event disables all powers in the void, but doesn't even speed you up as slower Killers like Nurse (which it gave me a daily for). So you can't blink as Nurse, and you can't move 4.6. Why? I was at Bloodlust 2, and the Survivors were still faster than me in the void. It is so poorly implemented and so poorly explained.
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@Gibberish said:
I literally will not play Killer at all unless a challenge requires it, or unless I'm really desperate for bloodpoints since the 100% bonus is almost always on Killer.
@rvzrvzrvz said:
I missclicked , I prefer surv but 100% bonus is always on killer unfortunately, I play 80% killer lately
The exact opposite is normally the case for me. I have to play at very specific timeframes (I'm usually not available at) to be lucky enough to get the incentive for Killer.
But that's interesting how much we (rvz and I) get swayed by the incentive.
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I thought certain Killers were cheaters, because the were using the all too common "hidden perks and add-ons cheat". I only found out from word of mouth later that was actually a foolish 'Working as Intended' feature. I was playing soloq, who the heck can I snitch the build to?!?!? Still a horrible practice, and still in place for whatever bizarre reason. Naw, we won't help newer players learn the game, someone might snitch the perks on the 1 in 1000 odds you end up in the lobby with a streamer actually streaming! So dumb.
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I think Killer should have 'home-field advantage' with map bans. Survivors can use an offering to bypass this but it should still be mostly be in the hands of Killer. I would want to similarly give Survivor's a Killer ban though. (SWF would have lobby leader bans only.) I would keep both at the same rate, 1 per 5 released (round down). Mainly because I hate bringing a heal tome and getting Plague, or picking a stealth Killer and getting an open map (or the inverse, ranged and indoor). Reducing the extremes of negative experiences would help against the worst of negativity bias.
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@dbdthegame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3564786#Comment_3564786
You've been arguing against a strawman for so long, frankly, I considered not engaging. You said MFT can't be used with any exhaustion perks outside DH, I said that's demonstrably false, to include SB. I never said it was optimal, I said they could be used together; and they can.
If you wanna see 4 man genrush boxes or more egregious MFT stacking, I can dig up screenshots. That happened to be a game I played right before replying, so I posted the screenshot. Any time there's a 100% incentive on killer, that is 3/5 lobbies that I run into.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3564826#Comment_3564826
No, Bloodlust just makes the game stale and stupid if the killer decides to commit to BL3 for every hit, in the same way old Legion was stale and stupid. There is no skill expression involved in removing BL, just RNG. If you get bad loop chains and the killer decides to BL, you are getting hit regardless. I've seen far too many Onryos sending themselves to Lerys/RPD and spamming teleport until someone is fully condemned, then chasing them with BL3 until they get the down. It's uninteractive and requires very little skill.
I don't know who started the rumor that BL loses one stack on stun but it needs to stop. This has never been the case. Only time BL is affected is when a pallet is broken, or power is used, or a hit is made, or chase is lost.
If you can down all of those players with MFT, you're playing against bad players. I'd be more than happy to hop in a 1v1 with you, where you use SB and I use MFT, and we can test who lasts longer. Killer of my choice of course, and amongst the ones you named.
Ornyos destroying soloq, who would have guessed /s. Lery's, assuming the initial spam TP which gave the team 100s to find a single tape, has significantly safe setups with windows and pallets (around the corner to be fair, if you know the map, you know its fairly connected). Near everything chains with one another, so all you need to do as Surv is force a single kick, or a teammate taking a bodyblock which resets Bloodlust, then takes 16 real, or 32 gen seconds to heal back up and take another forced bodyblock.
It very much is a Survivor skill to manage a Killers Bloodlust. I agree there isn't much skillful going on for Killer, but that is exactly who it is meant to help, those Killers without skill, or the situations that are devoid of skill (triple vault windows that don't allow for mindgames).
It isn't a rumor that BL drops a stack on stun. I went into a bot game myself and tested it out just prior to this post, it works. Maybe a stun is coded to lose chase for enough time that it sequentially drops 1 level but not more before they fade out, but a stun drops a level of Bloodlust.
The 1v1 fails because I win through more macro gameplay, not exclusively micro. I set up multiple 99's as Ghosty, intercepting would-be rescuers for hooks, ensuring certain gens stay worked or unworked, and burning pallets when I can't get downs that help me. I also am garbage at Survivor in comparison to Killer, so it would only be fair to compare my SB vs MfT times and your SB vs MfT, to which I'm sure we would call foul if the numbers favored SB in my playing as Surv chases and MfT in yours. If you want to use the 1v1 MfT and no MfT, we can use Otz v Hens for which I already did the math. Hens averaged 106s chases without MfT's speed boost, and 93.5s chases with MfT's speed boost. Hens lost ~12% chase time from either the overconfidence of MfT, or something else. I don't think anyone could try to claim Hens was trying to make MfT look bad, so that should be fair.
Edit: 'that that' -> 'but that' in 2nd paragraph
Edit 2: Also the 1v1 fails because as Trapper, I would have set numerous traps throughout the match, and the Survivors would have had the opportunity to disarm some/none/all of them. 1v1s fail to represent the realities of normal gameplay found in matches.
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@dbdthegame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3564726#Comment_3564726
The fact you even think "just bloodlust it" is a proper argument in defense of MFT showcases just how problematic the perk is. Bloodlust on its own is very problematic already, and can be used as a crutch by killers to guarantee hits in a lot of situations. It was implemented as a band-aid to map design (something that still hasn't been fixed), and is an imperfect band-aid. BL2-3 shouldn't exist, nor should MFT.
"Just Bloodlust it" is a defense against player incompetence. I can down people with MfT with minimal skin off my back. This is a game that needs comeback mechanics for weaker players, thus Bloodlust 3 exists. I personally like the concept of Bloodlust as Survivor, because it takes an expression of skill to burn the Killer's Bloodlust, and thematically fits the idea of an ever looming threat getting more deadly over time (as Killer it helps end boring situations that don't involve skill sooner). A stun removes 1 level, and a kick removes all. I can't adequately tell people how to engage in chase that they haven't already discovered on their own, or sought out tutorial videos that describe my knowledge far better than I could put into words.
I can down MfT users with Trapper/Wraith/Billy/Nurse/Myers/Hag/Huntress/Bubba/Freddy/Pig/Clown/Spirit/Legion/Plague/Ghosty/Demo/Oni/Slinger/Blight/Twins/Nemmy/Pinhead/Artist/OnionRing/Dredge/Wesker/Knight/Sing/Xeno. The only missing Killers are Doc, who I already acknowledged is legit countered, Pyramid Head because I suck at aiming as him, Trickster because I haven't played him outside of dailies so I don't actually know, and new SM, because I haven't bothered to play her yet, but the on-demand Stealth with no sound cues seems like a free win for my playstyle, even against MfT. Even if I were to say those 4 Killers are hard countered at the same level as Doc, that still leaves Sprint Burst hard countering all Killers with any stealth elements, which far outnumber 4.
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@dbdthegame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3564473#Comment_3564473
You absolutely can use MFT with exhaustjon perks (to include SB). SB needs a true 99 and you can't stop running but it's doable.
20% distance on every meter isn't just lag advantage, it's a massive advantage. Just the same way Resi isn't only good for lag, it turns certain pallets into god pallets as well as let you react slower to vaults (especially mid vaults).
It's already been shown a dozen ways how not every killer has a way to counter MFT, and in fact, most of them that can "coumter" it simply play around it, but ok.
Haste stacking is fine, MFT is not. If there's problem with other haste perks, then nerf those as well.
The frame perfect fake 99 still counts as Exhausted. You can bring Dramaturgy and test it out, and it won't let you use Dramaturgy while running at the fake 99, so you are still considered Exhausted, thus no MfT.
The 20% is only in hold-W scenarios, as I said, mindgames reset to looping check points, which sets you only at the .12m/s extra.
What Killer doesn't have access to Bloodlust? I already accounted for the general case scenarios, and you gave no specific Killers that can't counter it.
@MetalJesus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3564473#Comment_3564473
You have really high ping if you consider MFT antilag, are you playing from Mars or something?
And resilience is definitely not just an antilag perk either, just for that gen speed.
The relevant ping is on the Killer's end, and I frequently get given 8 timezone apart VPNing Killers abusing 'lagvantage' when playing as Survivor. I have 30-40 ping on my server on average, but those miscreants (specifically the 8 timezone apart Killers) have a perma red-bar, and do get hits from Mars.
As far as both MfT and Resil being anti-lag, that is their rough function in a normal loop. I wasn't talking about alternative uses as well, specifically in chase alone. Even then, Resil compared to the old 80s gens still slows them down to ~82.5s, so skill can still prevail quite easily. Also like I said in the above reply, when you reset someone with a mindgame within a loop, MfT loses the distance advantage and only has the .12m/s, which functions as anti-lag and little more.
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Multiple facets, but first, take the Endurance out back and do what you will with it, and by that I mean maybe put it onto Solidarity instead or something.
The first point, opportunity cost. Other than DH, you can't use it with any other Exhaustion perk, and I think against all Killers, Sprint Burst is always the best perk. Even if they stack it with DH, that means they are doubly vulnerable to anti-Exhaustion effects, so it mostly evens out.
Second, haste stacking's removal will have bad unintended consequences. Removing haste stacking will nerf Clown and Skull Merchant, yet keep Blight the same, due to Blight's add-ons modifying the speed formula, instead of applying a Haste effect. Same with Spirit, and all other stronger faster Killers, they modify the formula instead of giving haste.
Third, nearly every Killer has a method to deal with MfT with the exception of maybe Doctor. Maybe a few more Killers, but not Killers that are enjoyable to go against as Survivor, so it only meets fire with fire of 'unfun' (looking at you Trickster). Stealth Killers can take their free hit, power damaging Killers can damage with their power, and so on.
Fourth, it basically only provides an anti-lag compensatory differential when the Killer mindgames. Similar to Resilience buffing Fast Vaults from .5s to .455s, saving .045s, it basically only saves enough time where it only matters to negate the natural 'lagvantage' of Killer. If a Killer mindgames at all, the Survivor has to reset to check points, and outside of Shack and certain full jungle gym loops, there is no guarantee of safety at all on most filler loops' check points.
Fifth, Bloodlust exists, and only god pallets can burn it. Bloodlust 1 already shifts the speed differential to .68m/s, so you have an advantage over normal chase still existing, and Bloodlust 2 gives you .88m/s differential, or nearly a 50% bonus from the healthy/non-MfT difference. It takes 15s to reach BL1, and 25s to reach BL2. If you NEED a down, you can reliably get one as long as you didn't get perk randomized into Rapid Brutality.
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@CammyChameleon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3563565#Comment_3563565
I used the Exhaustion add on when he first came out and had the Family Photo bugged, it was ok, but when MFT was in play I would lose distance upon teleport. What you are showing here is that we would just rely on another add on (i.e. spent oxygen tank) over Family Photo) a base kit buff would make it so we can actually enjoy other add on that add some variety to the killer, like the scream one that can be paired with DMS for some fun builds.
Plus as I am sure you can ask anyone, there are people who have yet to play against a single Singularity at all, or maybe 1 when he first came out. I think this definitely calls for some slight tweaks to the killer as I am sure dedicated mains will put up with him, but not so much for first timers trying him out.
(This could also do with the fact people hate having their power constantly disabled, however that is a different topic. With that I just think the EMP range should be reduced as to not cover so much ground)
Even in my matches without those add-ons, I've never felt entirely reliant on them, as I could just bruteforce through all windows and pallets without significant timeloss. To be fair though, I usually put on Bamboozle on M1 Killers with no direct anti-loop to make sure I never get too annoyed at busted main windows (like Garden or certain Campbell's Chapel setups). That shuts downs windows and allows for vaults at the same speed as a Survivor Medium vault when overclocked, while only losing .4s if they Fast vaulted it.
From what I've seen about constantly having no power, that is a new player complaint. It takes the Survivor ~20s to crossmap and detag their teammate and get back to being productive on a gen or whatnot. At the same time it takes me ~3s tops to retag and TP to that person, that is if I was even in a position to need to do that in the first place (people so often detag their teammates when they are running in the open and the M1 hit is guaranteed anyways without a bodyblock, and they refuse to bodyblock after the detag). Unless this is saving someone from being turbo-tunneled out on death hook, this is a rough 8s net loss for the Survivor team, and I welcome people to waste their time against me.
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I've been predominantly using the exhaustion on goo and scream on anti-goo add-ons, and he feels great (although with the rise of UW, I might need to swap the scream add-on in fear of Calm Spirit). The add-on reliance of Family Photo might be something to negate the feeling of MfT, just as the exhaustion add-on also negates it. I haven't really had issues with people once I get the goo and TPs off.
The largest problem I'd say Sing has is when you want to TP, but you just keep hitting every minor object adjacent to the Survivors. If they added an extra button to take an auto-aimed shot on a viable target (even if it could hit a random different Surv in the backdrop) that would probably help far more for all skill brackets.
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Another false DC ban for the servers dying. Luckily it was a different day, but it shouldn't be happening at all.
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Dredge destroys uncoordinated teams, as last they had the kill stats, it was high up there. It has similar macro counterplay as Twins, stay healthy before touching gens, so against the current meta of stay injured, that empowers it. Finally, in certain scenarios it can feel like an un-fun no win scenario, as if Dredge doesn't return to its remnant, Bloodlust is still building up. The only fair nerf it would deserve is plopping down a remnant stops Bloodlust buildup. Even then though, if you've mindgamed the Dredge to swap loops enough to reach Bloodlust 2/3, I'd say you did good and should be happy with your chase turnout.
Overall Dredge is super fair and balanced, and it is likely 2 major factors that make people complain: soloq syndrome, and skilled variety Killers dominating on a better than average Killer.
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@DrDucky said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3561809#Comment_3561809
I feel like in that respect should we not just introduce less complex and potentially controversial ways of rewarding killers for hooking multiple survivors? You wrote a lot and I think I get the basic idea, but whilst your intent is good and if this was to in theory happen and MMR did align this way then yes it would be better. But as I read this I just realised it can be boiled down to a much simpler: "why dont we just rewarding hooking multiple survivors more and change mmr to better reflect this?".
To quote the taco girl 'por que no las dos' or however you said it, idk, I don't speak Spanish (Why not both, in other words). Ideally I'd hope for both, and this is a baby-step that utilizes existing mechanics to work towards that end. I've come up with more complicated mechanics to reward split pressure, like a Devour Hope styled speed boost post-hook disabled on power use, that way it helps the Killers without mobility, but doesn't overly buff Killers with mobility. I've also recommended other things, but in general, they were much more complicated than a lesser version of an existing perk like this suggestion for a lesser basekit NOED.
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The funniest thing is, I think this makes Survivors play worse now than before. They feel invincible, so their team waits far too long to realize 'oh snap, I need to actually rescue them from the hook'. I had a full team stare me down on Borgo, with the 4th hooked in the jungle gym behind me in the corner, while I stood next to a 90% gen in the middle of the side. The Nea kept pretending like she was going to take aggro, but we both knew she had Balanced, so she stayed close to main building to fall off at all times. As a result, the team showed me that me standing right there kept everyone off of gens, the nearly complete gen kept regressing, and none of them were willing to take a hit or go for a hook trade until the person died on hook. They never tried to go around from the opposite side/corner, they never tried anything that showed an inkling of thought, and as a result their teammate died on hook behind me when I was nowhere near her.
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@Sava18 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3561982#Comment_3561982
Question
If dodging lobbies starts to get punished(not as much as dcs but a ramping affect) and there was a queue with no items/add-ons for both sides would that be better? I guess the end result is that killers don't play add-on reliant killers and the general tier of killer goes up but I would still think that to be fair.
Blight with meta perks and no add-ons vs 4 decently meta perk survivors with no items would be pretty balanced for ex.
I know dbd players hate the idea of a penalty for game ruining bhvr but it needs to be punished to move forward. This game is so stomp or be stomped to an extent and that comes from the two big things you mentioned.
If such a queue were to exist, I think that would make item perks remotely viable, and chests remotely worth wasting your time on them. That I view as a good thing.
It also is a bit strange though, because Killer add-ons can range from as worthless as Pyramid Head's to as overpowered as Blights. Plus many of the standard M1 variety almost 'need' their add-ons to remain remotely competitive. I admit I've crutched on Killer add-ons for near all of my time playing Killer, but it just feels weird not to play without them. Survivor items on the other hand don't feel as integral to the experience, and I often go into Survivor lobbies 'naked' on the item department. So I'm not fully sure about such a queue mostly for standard M1 Killers. Even a limited rarity add-on would seem strange, because some Killers can run Brown and Yellow like Huntress hatchet cooldown, but some other Killers might need Iri and Purple to be in that same league.
The strange thing is I've seen lobby dodges against the least effective things, like keys and flashies, more than a full 4 Toolbox squad.
As a similar yet still separate issue, I think we should have a distinct item model for each different item. We get it for each event item, so before you could bring an event Med-kit or Flashlight and the Killer wouldn't necessarily be scared since it was only a Yellow equivalent. I suppose the Flashlight part is the same, but Med-kit differences have been butchered, so they might as well all mean the same thing now. Assuming they don't go the route of hiding items from the onset like they are testing with Prestiges, I think having a separate model for items would help immensely. At the same time, it may have the same issue as Prestiges, with people dodging if they ever see too high of a number/rarity of item. In general though, I think lower skilled players still within top MMR are the main group that lobby dodge, so they likely see big number and run away. As such, they wouldn't be the ones to dodge a larger toolbox because they don't know enough about the game to actually know it was a better toolbox model.
As far as an escalating DC equivalent lobby dodge penalty, I think it might work at a 15s/30s/1m then jump sharply, but it resets to nothing after an hour from the most recent dodge. I believe the DCs reset daily, so I'm not sure they could re-use the same code for this theoretical lobby dodge ban. I do feel there are times that justify a lobby dodge, like people with a steam profile 8+ timezones apart, or valve bans on record double digit days ago. That's why I think 3 within an hour is enough for low penalties, especially if it resets the hour timer multiple times within a row like every 3rd normal match had a former cheater and you didn't want to risk it. I do think this lobby dodge penalty should be for both sides, but independently in play. That way if you dodge too many times you could still swap to the other role to wait out the timer.
Edit: (I borked the timers in the final paragraph, the mistake was 15s/30[MINUTES]/1m, the correction exists above.)
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Multiplayer games work best when everyone has agency. They also work best when people interact with the opposite side in versus, or the same side in cooperative (even better if both at the same time). Due to the nature of this game, denying players of agency is required, but shouldn't be done any more than necessary.
When people chase/get chased and have options in chase, they have agency. When the Killer is forced to entity block too strong of a window with 3 vaults, they don't have agency, they have a flowchart. When a Survivor is facecamped and is forced to sit on hook and not end the match early, they don't have agency, they have a flowchart. Mechanics that give agency to agency-less situations should be encouraged and embraced. Mechanics that deny agency should be tooled to give agency.
Since this is a versus game, the skill of both sides comes into play. This also is a game where you can supplement a lack of skill with overpowering tools, like a giga-toolbox or Blight. As such, when each side brings those powerful tools, they are seeking victory at all costs. The other problem, is a player has no control over the caliber of their opposition. The match where I bring meme perks, can be met with a sweaty Nurse. The next match I could bring a giga-toolbox expecting fire to fight fire, but then I run into an add-onless Trapper. People too frequently bring forward stronger tools to counter the sweat they faced last match, and that leads to an arms race essentially. The best way to try to face this is do your best to not engage in the arms race, that's why I call this a party game, to not engage in a sweatlord mindset.
Part of the sweatlord mindset is lobby dodging, which is the current greatest threat to matchmaking. Lobby dodging causes an autofill player from any skill bracket to fill the lobby dodger's space. As such it increases the rate of being forced into outmatched lobbies for one side or the other.
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@Hex_Ignored said:
It now has a similar problem like old shelter woods. A good portion of the map is just a dead zone.
Except it doesn't have the benefit of old Shelter Woods that the map might be too big for many Killers.
It was so bad I ran an L from Main Building, to the corner, to Killer Shack, and there were 0 pallets outside of gyms. There was 1 joke of a window, that basically was as strong as a z-wall window found on the edgemap normally, but any 4.6 Killer could get a hit from a single mindgame that forced a vault.
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Just to be clear, it was either a Steam or BHVR server shutdown, not a 60 minute match timeout.
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I just thought of another issue that adds on to my previous point here.
@mizark3 said:
I think the problem is how people loosely categorize perks, and how there is a general dominant strictly superior perk or two perks and 8 or 9 others. To support this I'll try to generalize some categories.
First lets look at 'healing' perks. There are multiple areas that this can apply to, from Audodidact, to Self-Care, to We'll Make It, to Botany, to Desperate Measures, to Solidarity, to Resurgence and so on. I'd argue We'll Make It and Botany are the most consistently solid perks, whereas you need 3 injuries for Desperate Measures to bypass Botany, Solidarity carries too much risk for the reward, Autodidact doesn't work with med-kits and is gamble heavy, and Resurgence is a personal We'll Make It. The problem is even with Resurgence, We'll Make It can be the dedicated rescuer, so they don't waste the perk and can essentially give 3 Resurgences to the team with 1 perk.
Another one is Survivor on Survivor intel. While you have some interesting ones like Aftercare, Empathy, Bond, Empathic Connection, Lucky Star, Situation Awareness, and more. Bond tends to be far and above all others, and many times you only need an aura to coordinate a heal, which makes most of these useless without the added help Bond gives in preventing a chase from accidentally interrupting a gen.
Then on to Exhaustion perks. Overall, I'd say these are among some of the best balanced compared to one another. Removing the Endurance from MfT, and a few minor tweaks on Balanced and DH would tip them into just right territory (buffs on both, but I understand the pseudo PTSD DH has left some Killers with). As such I would say they are largely fine.
Then as a loose category you could say 'item perks'. The problem here, is many item perks are gambling perks, or some are almost strictly worse than a similar version (I'm looking at you Pharmacy compared to Self-Care). Sadly, since the best item is more often the item you brought with you, that makes Built To Last arguably the best item perk. It basically can give up to 2 extra uses of the base item amount. That seems especially silly when you compare that with the intended med-kit nerf to not allow more than 1 extra heal. Now you can simply bring a 2 (personal) heal med-kit, and reload it enough times that you had essentially 6 (personal) heals in it. The problem is that BTL can apply to ANY item, so it often makes the other perks seem redundant in comparison. Heck, the other perks are usually only good when you combine them for ultra-efficiency, like Streetwise on top of BTL.
Perks don't always stack the most effectively. A Botany heal takes 10.66s, or saves 5.33s. A We'll Make It heal takes 8s, and saves the same 8s. But a Botany+We'll Make It heal takes 6.4s, or saves 9.6s total. That means Botany is only helping WMI save an extra 1.6s, despite saving 5.33s on its own. Because many of these perks can overlap, or inefficiently stack, it helps more to bring the best of each category you think would help you, so that reinforces only using 1 or 2, and calling the rest 'trash'.
(I just now read the replies to the thread after mine and that is largely re-saying what Steak and Nightmare said though, but I typed it before I read what they typed so I'm posting it anyways lol.)
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@Chaogod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3558487#Comment_3558487
Based on WHAT? Stats from nearly a year ago? Or the stat websites that grasp at Straws?
Gandor has expressed a desire for kill rates being balanced around 50%, and BHVR's stated intention is to hover around 60%. I think it is a fair assertion that kill rates are likely currently above 50%, but below 60%.
For one, when BHVR revealed perk stats, they didn't reveal kill stats. That leads me to believe the kill stats are NOT currently hovering around 60%, or any desired range.
Two, Survivor is getting QoL mechanics that will negatively impact kill rates. That leads me to believe the kill stats are above 50%, because otherwise BHVR would be scrambling to pump the numbers.
Three, while i also devalue sweatlords self-reporting (Nightlight), it can be fair to say their numbers are often enough, somewhat in the ballpark, with exceptions existing. (see the recent thread comparing BHVR perk stats and Nightlight's stats, with Self-Care being the most notable exception that I can recall) As a result, Nightlight's aggregate ballpark of above 50 and less than 60 could support points 1 and 2.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3561156#Comment_3561156
So one guy of the survivor team who basically didn't do anything wrong, but in the end was just guy getting hit by Noed (or unhooked against, which as a base kit mechanic would just not happen, because why would he risk going down) has to die and somewhat loose so the killer who lost the game doesn't feel so bad about getting trashed? Come on man that cannot be the goal here... So now this guy feels bad because he didn't do anything wrong in particular but still died to this... That does not really improve the overall happiness of people...
Since the guy can still be rescued, and the guy could have pre-cleansed, yeah, seems fine to me. Half the time the final chase person is injured anyways, so this doesn't get them downed significantly faster to have the injured person be exposed, especially if we decide the Haste is too much for basekit NOED, a concession I am willing to make. This could be a fair point though if you were to make the argument people would instead, or increase the rate at which they stay injured going into endgame instead, backfiring on the intended results. That would be a horrible failing of the entire goal of the change.
@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3561247#Comment_3561247
Also this is a game for adults, this is not some game for little children who need pity awards for not quitting right away... If you cannot deal with loosing in a video game as a grown up then so be it, but I don't think it is a good reason to ruin another players win just to feel better about yourself, which honestly you shouldn't even as killer in that example, because you didn't earn the victory, you just got lucky...
While I don't disagree with this notion, a huge chunk of the playerbase are under the M-17/PEGI-18 suggestions provided. I know I played the Halo trilogy, Mortal Kombat, and OG Doom when I was a kid, and certainly was under 18 when that happened. That is a fair sub-argument to determine whether we balance around the presence of 'illegal' kids or not.
Even then, if you were to scan the forums for Killer player complaints, the common factor is 'I lose because my games go too fast', so this is an attempt to help people whose games actually are 'going too fast' without impacting the norm. The logic of ruin another person's day can be also compared to bringing a meta Killer loadout on Blight/Nurse, or a giga-toolbox in a SWF, yet we aren't deleting those from the game. I would tune those down as well, but for now, I think comeback mechanics (that don't affect normal matches) are a good attempt.
@DrDucky said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3561028#Comment_3561028
Ok thats fair I get the point, some kind of comeback mechanic a bit like a devour hope in a way based on how well you did could be cool. The only issue with that logic is giving free hooks can lead to kills (say your free hook happens to be to a guy on death hook). This would then lead to increases in MMR and free kills which said player did not deserve.
I can understand the counterargument (Free hooks can be free kills), but in most circumstances I'd say it was a 'healthy' kill. If the person intentionally 6-8 hooked, then got a basekit NOED kill, they had a free 7-9th hook. They could have placed their hooks more efficiently like 3/3/0-2/0 and gotten 2 kills and likely ended the game much sooner. Giving that person a free kill, I don't find offensive. On the other hand, the person who only has 2 hooks on 1 person, given their 'free hook' on that same person, would be an unenjoyable 'free kill', especially if the team saw the 4th Surv getting tunneled, and they pumped the gens in response, expecting them to die and disable the totem. That would be a fair thing to worry about.
So with those 2 above cases, I think at that point we would want to consider the frequency of the 6-8 hook free kill vs the 2 hook free kill, and if the 1 kill is enough of an MMR adjustment to matter in the long run.
From my matches (as Killer), I end up in the 6-8 hook scenario running into endgame more often. From my soloq matches, I end up in a tunneled kill + 2 spread/tunneled hooks circumstance more often heading into endgame, so the basekit NOED wouldn't even spawn. But, this would need more info with other people to determine the accuracy.
As far as the MMR, the free kill would slow the MMR loss, but not prevent it. (Assuming Kills positive) +5-5-5-5 (1K3E) is still net -10, so the Killer still lost the match MMR wise, and goes down in MMR. Compared to -5-5-5-5 (4E) being net -20, so if it were truly a fully free kill, it would half the rate of MMR loss. Since both still cause a loss in MMR, I don't quite think this would cause an 'increase' in MMR. No to be fair, if they camped the skilled person (in relation to the Killer), it could shift the numbers to something like +20-5-5-5, (1K3E) which is net +5, so the free facecamp gave the Killer 1 kill, and an MMR win. My counter to that specific circumstance is that assuming that player would be that much more skilled than the Killer, they would know the mechanics of basekit NOED to be able to utilize the remaining resources (pallets and windows) to extend chase long enough to allow for the team to cleanse it. As such, the odds of the Killer catching them significantly drop, so that only say ~20% of the time does the Killer catch them. With those odds, the effective value of the MMR win drops to +4-5-5-5 (adjusted 20% 1K3E) at net -11, so an MMR loss. In this particular example, it remains an MMR loss as long as it the skill differential is enough to cause the Killer to catch them any amount less than 75% of the time.
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@kit_mason said:
The first aspect of genrush means 'skill dif git gud' I agree with, this is meant to help weaker Killers (read players) without impacting more effective Killer's (read player's) matches.
Weaker players should go against weaker players, that's the way in which they're helped - the fact that this doesn't always happen is evidence the MMR system is broken and needs fixing, rather than trying to rebalance the game around said broken system.
The counterplay is Plot Twist - I mean if you want to say the counterplay to Corrupt is Plot Twist+No Mither instead of realizing how counter-productive that is, then sure, we can say it counters everything. The thing with Plot Twist is you have to pick yourself up eventually, and on the ground you provide no value to your team.
Playing a 3* man endgame without NOED is easier than playing a 4 man endgame with NOED, and the second another survivor goes down the Plot Twist player can pick themselves back up at full health and with a speed boost, partially nulifying the benefit of downing that survivor at all. The value provided by putting yourself on the ground is denying the NOED.
Lockdown Killers guarding the totem - I don't think you've read the post. The basekit NOED totem remains lit, but inactive if anyone is in the dying state, on hook, and fully snuffs itself out if someone dies. How do you propose a Killer snowballs 4 slugs/hooks in endgame from only a single exposed down that they weren't capable of doing previously?
You yourself were suggesting this addition to the game as a means of giving the Killer an easier time in games that were difficult. If you now state that it's not capable of giving the killer a genuine chance I think that puts us back at square 1 to the necessity of adding a limited-scope basekit NOED, no? It's either useful or it isn't, you can't have it both ways.
But beyond this, you know what the strategy to snowball here would be? To abuse altruism. The second an unhook happens, the criteria of nobody being dying, hooked or dead is met and every survivor is exposed again - meaning the unhooker is now instadownable, monstrously dissuading the survivors from playing the endgame for a 4 man escape instead of just letting the killer have their free 1k.
Also you can still soak a hook on someone to force the aura reveal portion for an easy search if you don't want to pre-cleanse. Now if you are saying hook the Survivor on the NOED totem, that's fair, I would recommend swapping totem spots in that case ala Pyramid Head Cages being camped get swapped spots. Maybe only swap the totem location for basekit NOED, and allow it to Pentimento styled replace an already broken totem. Another alternative would be basekit NOED must spawn in 2 totems, and either being cleansed (or 4 pre-cleansed) destroys the totem.
I've been an advocate for 2-totem NOED for as long as I've been playing the game, but I don't think it would encourage survivors to play endgames altruistically, something I'll cover in more depth on your next point.
Neither side should be punished for pursuing their objective - At what point is the opposition pursuing their objective 'punishing' players for pursuing theirs? Anti-tunnel does this exact thing, but we consider it healthy for the game because it achieves the goal of promoting spreading the pressure instead of focus firing. This basekit NOED does a similar concept, where spreading pressure is rewarded more so than focus fire.
Tunnelling isn't particularly comparable because it is the optimal strategy in any given game. Removing someone from the match applies permanent, uncounterable pressure - anti-tunneling exists to mitigate this both in the name of balance and fun - furthering the engagement of the tunneled survivor past "you went down straight off the unhook, enjoy spending the next minute doing nothing".
Basekit NOED doesn't achieve this - in fact, it achieves the opposite. The optimal strategy under basekit NOED would be to simply leave- sacrifice whoever takes the chase if they cant run him for long enough to get themselves out and accepting that a 4 man out is simply too time-consuming to bother with anymore, especially given other endgame perks still function as normal, and are boosted by these changes - even just one instadown makes Blood Warden stronger, as a singular example.
Your alternative to picking a lamb for the slaughter is to bring a plot twist user, and neither of those are engaging imo (especially for the lamb or the plot twister) - if anything, they're monstrously unfun for the survivors and a hollow free kill for killers - the game giving you a 1k out of pity can't feel that great, I'd imagine.
When I say weaker players, I typically mean in relation to their opposition. The problem with 'top-MMR' is how if you are at the bottom of that list, you only fight better opponents. So when I recommend this weaker basekit NOED, it is intended to help the outmatched weaker player. Essentially people matched against the 'correct MMR', but simply don't have the hours to match.
Even if we were to assume this absolute madlad response of Plot Twisting against basekit NOED, they need to be injured, they likely already used this in midgame making it known they have the perk going into endgame, and the team still needs to cleanse the totem while pressuring the gates. I think that's enough hoops to consider that fine counterplay.
Basekit NOED should be enough to soften a loss, but not enough to win games for free. That's the delicate balance, so I don't believe it to be contradictory to want it to do something, and also do little. It just needs to hit a Goldilocks styled 'just-right'.
As far as endgame altuism, that largely changes nothing. Survivors who screw up end up with a hook trade, Survivors who colossally screw up give a free 4k, and Survivors who play very well get a 4 escape. Each of those have degrees of success in between ranging X kills and Y escapes. The 'correct play' for Survivor is to cleanse the basekit NOED, and hook trade if you need the extra minute for searching/cleansing. Then as normal, Survivors coordinate the heals and unhooks until they get the amount of escapes that match their collective competence in relation to the Killer's. In the case of Bloodwarden, either the Killer telegraphs BW by opening the gates, or the Survivors misplay horribly by giving a hook AFTER they opened the gates themselves. That isn't really different Live from proposed.
With tunneling, it isn't always the optimal strategy, but people tend to mistake it to be. Just like pumping the gens, it isn't always the optimal strategy, but people tend to mistake it to be. That seems comparable to me. As far as a 4 man out, I feel like we must play in vastly different cultural regions. People near always try for the last minute rescues going for the hero moment, no matter how hopeless, at least on my server.
(Edit: To clarify circumstances of Tunneling not helping and pumping gens not helping I'll include some examples. 3 Survivors are pumping the final gen, and the Killer willfully ignores them to tunnel the Survivor because they 'need a kill'. [I've seen this often in my soloq matches.] The other circumstance is 'well let me just finish this gen before I go for the hook rescue', then the Survivor has 10s on hook by the time they arrive, and the Killer proxy-camps out an extra hook state. [I've seen this often in my Killer matches.] -end edit)
The max 1k that basekit NOED would grant you is meant to be a pity reward, not a full free swing back around in the Killer's favor. It is meant to soften a loss, not entirely remove a deserved one. The Survivor team can then choose do they like Mission Complete or MISSION ACCOMPLISHED, and can play accordingly.
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I think the problem is how people loosely categorize perks, and how there is a general dominant strictly superior perk or two perks and 8 or 9 others. To support this I'll try to generalize some categories.
First lets look at 'healing' perks. There are multiple areas that this can apply to, from Audodidact, to Self-Care, to We'll Make It, to Botany, to Desperate Measures, to Solidarity, to Resurgence and so on. I'd argue We'll Make It and Botany are the most consistently solid perks, whereas you need 3 injuries for Desperate Measures to bypass Botany, Solidarity carries too much risk for the reward, Autodidact doesn't work with med-kits and is gamble heavy, and Resurgence is a personal We'll Make It. The problem is even with Resurgence, We'll Make It can be the dedicated rescuer, so they don't waste the perk and can essentially give 3 Resurgences to the team with 1 perk.
Another one is Survivor on Survivor intel. While you have some interesting ones like Aftercare, Empathy, Bond, Empathic Connection, Lucky Star, Situation Awareness, and more. Bond tends to be far and above all others, and many times you only need an aura to coordinate a heal, which makes most of these useless without the added help Bond gives in preventing a chase from accidentally interrupting a gen.
Then on to Exhaustion perks. Overall, I'd say these are among some of the best balanced compared to one another. Removing the Endurance from MfT, and a few minor tweaks on Balanced and DH would tip them into just right territory (buffs on both, but I understand the pseudo PTSD DH has left some Killers with). As such I would say they are largely fine.
Then as a loose category you could say 'item perks'. The problem here, is many item perks are gambling perks, or some are almost strictly worse than a similar version (I'm looking at you Pharmacy compared to Self-Care). Sadly, since the best item is more often the item you brought with you, that makes Built To Last arguably the best item perk. It basically can give up to 2 extra uses of the base item amount. That seems especially silly when you compare that with the intended med-kit nerf to not allow more than 1 extra heal. Now you can simply bring a 2 (personal) heal med-kit, and reload it enough times that you had essentially 6 (personal) heals in it. The problem is that BTL can apply to ANY item, so it often makes the other perks seem redundant in comparison. Heck, the other perks are usually only good when you combine them for ultra-efficiency, like Streetwise on top of BTL.
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@kit_mason said:
Many people complain about the gens going to fast, so they feel like they have to tunnel someone out, or gen speeds need to be adjusted solo or coop
If you need to tunnel someone out, you need to tunnel someone out. Do what is necessary to win the game, the survivor will go next regardless of how badly you have hurt their feelings.
Now for a basekit NOED to not just be utter bull schenanigans, it would need to hurt genrushers, but not impact normal matches.
"Genrushing" is entirely an issue of the killer being incapable of properly managing pressure, which is a failing of the killer, not an admonition of the survivors.
So with that, what do we need... ...if 1 Survivor is downed/on hook/dead, the basekit version will not be active, and death will disable the totem altogether like Ruin. The totem would still be active, but the perk effects would not be.
The counterplay here, then, would be Plot Twist - something a SWF can guarantee that a team of solos cannot, which partially mitigates the intended benefits, no? A SWF is more likely to spread out their hooks to prevent anyone from dying whereas Solos are rarely that altruistic.
Now assuming someone says something along the lines of "I'm just a normal Survivor player, I shouldn't be punished for a Killer being bad at the game", then I agree, you can cleanse all 5 totems if you fear a basekit NOED. If Survivors 'HAVE' to pre-cleanse all the totems, that takes 70s on the totems, and lets underestimate 20s to search and walk over to reach all 5. That gives the weaker Killers who need extra time essentially a 6th gen.
So let's make this clear: If you're doing well in the game you need to entirely pause your last generator at 99 to cleanse five dulls so that the killer has a chance to bring back a game that they have already deservedly lost by mismanaging pressure. And that's to say nothing of... just off the top of my head lockdown killers guarding a free fifth perk by way of keeping one difficult-to-cleanse totem up the entire match instead of playing the game normally.
It also says nothing of how this would change survivor behaviour - if youre the only one on death hook the optimal play would now be to force a tunnel to guarantee the 3 out, a feat that is likely easier than a five-dull cleanse extending the game out even further.
Neither side should be punished for pursuing their objective - something that the discussions surrounding MFT would seem to show that the playerbase wholeheartedly agrees with.
The first aspect of genrush means 'skill dif git gud' I agree with, this is meant to help weaker Killers (read players) without impacting more effective Killer's (read player's) matches.
The counterplay is Plot Twist - I mean if you want to say the counterplay to Corrupt is Plot Twist+No Mither instead of realizing how counter-productive that is, then sure, we can say it counters everything. The thing with Plot Twist is you have to pick yourself up eventually, and on the ground you provide no value to your team.
Lockdown Killers guarding the totem - I don't think you've read the post. The basekit NOED totem remains lit, but inactive if anyone is in the dying state, on hook, and fully snuffs itself out if someone dies. How do you propose a Killer snowballs 4 slugs/hooks in endgame from only a single exposed down that they weren't capable of doing previously? Also you can still soak a hook on someone to force the aura reveal portion for an easy search if you don't want to pre-cleanse. Now if you are saying hook the Survivor on the NOED totem, that's fair, I would recommend swapping totem spots in that case ala Pyramid Head Cages being camped get swapped spots. Maybe only swap the totem location for basekit NOED, and allow it to Pentimento styled replace an already broken totem. Another alternative would be basekit NOED must spawn in 2 totems, and either being cleansed (or 4 pre-cleansed) destroys the totem.
Neither side should be punished for pursuing their objective - At what point is the opposition pursuing their objective 'punishing' players for pursuing theirs? Anti-tunnel does this exact thing, but we consider it healthy for the game because it achieves the goal of promoting spreading the pressure instead of focus firing. This basekit NOED does a similar concept, where spreading pressure is rewarded more so than focus fire.
@DrDucky said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3559192#Comment_3559192
I feel like a mechanic which just rewards bad killers in anyway is not healthy. It discourages learning that people get from loosing a match, since this can allow a bad player to get extra hooks kills whatever which they fundamentally did not deserve.
As long as matchmaking is based on kills and not hooks, and this gives free hooks and not kills (plural being the important factor here), then I would have to disagree. More hooks softens the blow of a loss for a weaker player, which makes them play more, which makes them learn more. If matchmaking made more sense with it being hook (action) based, or even a different better system, then I would most certainly agree. Sadly we live in a world of Kill/Escape based matchmaking, so my suggestion is centered around BHVR's logic in that regard. Similarly BHVR balances around 60% kill rates, so i try to keep my suggestions to stray not too far from that realm.
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Character hitboxes is a good and bad idea, and for a game like DBD I would think it is worse than better. Nancy is one of the smallest characters, and having her no longer purchasable and having the smallest hitbox (if they went character route) would be a gross pay-to-win circumstance that isn't even possible to buy anymore. As such, everyone basically has Jeff's hitbox, or Adam's hitbox with the tall hair on the default cosmetic.
The pill hitbox lagging behind characters is certainly a bit strange, but I think it is so the injured and healthy hitboxes match. The other, more egregious facet, is the latency on the hitbox 'lagging behind'. This I think is what most people complain about. Sadly there is only validation on pallet stuns, where the laggier player loses, but there is no latency validation on around the corner or through wall shots. While I understand it may impact players who live far from their official servers, I think there should be some soft form of validation at least. I suggest a soft-validation, where if the server thought you rounded the corner in time, then you are considered to have endurance. This would give 3 hits to down in the worst of cases, but still help Survivors against VPN for 'lagvantage' Killers. There is a gross excess of VPN 'lagvantage' Killers from roughly midnight to 5am on the Pacific timezone often times.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3560414#Comment_3560414
I swapped adrenaline for breakout since 7.1.0 (to counter new hook density) so that's how fresh my information is. But talking about things from 7.0.0 - if survivor finishes gen right as you go down, you will be stuck in down animation and then a moment later killer will always be able to down you again. If killer does not expect adren, he will actually miss the timing and you will escape (but you will only get like 2.5s of your 5s sprint). But if he notices in HUD or expects it, you will be unable to get away and he can down you. 100% sure of this.
However, there is possibility to slightly postpone fixing the generator (fix gen in about 1,5-2s after survivor got downed). If you fix it like this, then survivor will not be stuck in down animation and will get adrenaline immediately where killer won't be able to abuse it. Another possibility survivor can do when he knows what's going to happen is to point as you go down - this will also skip down animation and you will get adrenaline immediately.
But I am 100% sure that before 7.1.0 (and I presume they didn't change it) if someone fixes gen immediately after killer downs someone AND killer is aware, then adrenaline is wasted perk slot as it buys just 1 more hit cooldown animation's worth of time.
Fair enough, I'll take your word for it that you can't Adren to bypass the Dying fall anymore. (I swear you used to be able to at one point in time though, but I could be misremembering, I've played this game too long it all tends to blur together.)
Even assuming it 'hard deletes' Adren value in 4 people alive circumstances without pre-cleanses, I think its still a fair enough tickle nerf to Adrenaline. Overall I think Adrenaline is an unhealthy perk, but still a fair perk, and not OP by any stretch of the imagination. An edge case proxy nerf like this I don't think would be too much of an issue, and would hopefully draw off cries for its nerf with this mechanic as a soft-defense.
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I've always thought Demo would fit better as a non-licensed Werewolf so people would still have access to the mechanics. The Shred and burrows instead of tunnels seem to perfectly fit a Werewolf concept. Whereas the Stranger Things perks are available to everyone, the Killer mechanics of Demo aren't 'publicly available' unless you already bought the Killer or spend an exorbitant amount of money on a code.
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Incentive has only been on Killer when I could play, so I've only been playing Killer so far with 1 Ghosty, 1 Blight, 4 Trapper, and 1 Wraith match. It didn't negatively impact any of my matches. None of the times did I feel like I needed to stay too far away in paranoia, and I won every match (minimum 3k at various gens remaining, 1 Trapper match was 0 gens 3k on Lery's, and 1 Trapper match was 0 gens 3k on Toba's, but the rest had gens remaining). Even the basement Trapper hooks didn't get facecamp unhooked even when grabbing traps around the area and kicking gens/pallets. I even had what appeared to be a SWF intentionally 'swimming' between 2 people I had on hook, but I was able to make use of the grace timers to not be hit by it. (I only call them a likely SWF because they had multiple flashies and grouped up in that way that makes you think they are intentionally trying to save for one another on comms and with locker slow exits. Also I had 2 on hook because of that locker attempt being outplayed by a hit then pickup, then an Agitation hit plus down on an injured greedy Survivor.)
My guess is anyone getting hit by this camped a lot more than they normally would admit to publicly. At this point it kind of is a self-report to crutching on camping before, and not adapting to avoid excessive (face)camping beforehand. There's probably still room for specific problems, but in general it feels like a success so far.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3560193#Comment_3560193
This is offtopic, but I really should correct you just in case. If you finish gen right as the person with adrenaline goes down, you are just wasting his perk slot. There's a down animation and adrenaline will get postponed long enough so, that killer can hit same survivor again - which means you just robbed him of perk slot. It's better to pop the gen before the survivor goes down or once he is already on hook (so that he will be healthy on unhook).
If you pop the gen the second someone gets downed (before the Killer finishes their hit recovery), they can run instantly. I've seen people do it in the past, and coordinated Adren on down pops with friends as well. To be fair, maybe they changed something somewhat recently, but if they haven't, then the person's perk isn't wasted because now they are back up with a 5s Sprint Burst while the Killer is still in hit recovery. I haven't done it recently so I'm not in the know, because I've been fun coordinating back to back Blast Mines instead with friends, or just normal tomfoolery. Essentially I thought (last I used it in this specific circumstance) Adrenaline bypasses the down animation, and you can run instantly even if you were falling over.
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@BlightedDolphin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3559613#Comment_3559613
MFT is also the reason half the perks you listed are even meta.
Without MFT I’m sure Resilience and Dead Hard would fall in popularity.
Nerf MFT and then buff the really bad perks. But fair buffs, not Buckle Up level buffs.
See I think a Buckle Up level buff is good, as the only problem is the For the People combo potential. Similar to Enduring/Spirit Fury, can you really say you hate Spirit Fury (or Buckle Up) used alone? I'd say FTP needs a full 'transfusion' mechanic that counts as a heal for tomes and dailies, but not for perks. If they make that change, I don't think the combo would exist, nor would Buckle Up ever be considered in the realm of problematic.
Edit:
@WilliamSN said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3559761#Comment_3559761
"it didn't get changed in any way to how it can be used"
Ok cool, we just pretending 5.3.0 didn't happen?
To be fair, 'how' it can be used is different from 'how often'.
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@BlightedTrapper said:
Killers are already handed free kills in the endgame, given that many anti-tunnel/camp effects are disabled during that time. Not to mention the fact that most survivors won't leave if they have a fair chance to save teammates, which often leads to additional kills. I just don't think the solution to gen-rushing is to give killers an even stronger endgame.
Even though this would only spawn if no one is dead, and is only active while no one is on hook/in the dying state, and fully despawn after a death? I feel like a NOED cleanse (or pre-cleanse at 1 gen remaining) isn't the most difficult task to ask for a 4 escape.
As far as the 'handed free kills in endgame', that still only most commonly affects a single Survivor, as it is very rare to have 2-3 Survs running around with OTR/DS, especially going into endgame. When multiple people are on hook, it generally is a better idea to 99 the gen and have someone tap it strategically on a down, just in case they have Adren.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3558939#Comment_3558939
30% of current is never going to be better than 25% of total unless the gen is at like 90% complete.
30% of current with 90s gens vs 25% of max with 80s gens has a much smaller breakpoint. The 25% max 80s does a flat 20s of gen progress. Reverse engineering the math puts 30% current tied at 20s at 66.66 gen seconds, and when the 4th piston is active at 67.5s, that basically means it is always better than before when the 4th piston is active.
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@DrDucky said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/393441/is-it-time-to-basekit-noed
This would make solo Q even more miserable. Also as the first post said, pentimento would break this. Your logic of "just do all the bones" falters massively because people could legit just slap penti on so if you got a team who somehow could find all the bones in time then you can unleash another wave of totems which have to be cleansed. Also I agree with the idea of a conditionless basekit no ed is unhealthy for the game because it literally only rewards killers who did bad and a good killer who got even just a kill or two will have ZERO benefit from the perk.
As I mentioned in the other reply, you would wait until the final gen or 2 to start cleansing in order to hard counter it, so Penti wouldn't get enough mileage. Also if the Killer is turbo tunneling, you wouldn't want to waste time from the onset.
Also I didn't recommend a conditionless basekit NOED, I recommended a heavily restricted NOED to help ease weaker Killers or outmatched due to autofill Killers feel like they had a greater chance. It intentionally is only meant to rewards Killers who did bad, because it is only meant to give a couple extra hooks and minor slowdown for the Killers that need it. Skilled Killers don't need such a feature, so I had the limitations based around something most Killers wouldn't even get to use. Basically the only way this would give a free kill is when the Killer intentionally 8 hooked without a kill, and at that point, they could have placed those 8 hooks like 3/3/2/0 instead of intentionally 'playing nice' by going for 2/2/2/2. The Killer getting a free kill, could have easily won long before should they have taken their 2 free kills long before endgame, and forced the 2 Survivors to finish the remaining gens.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3558536#Comment_3558536
1, that works for SWF. But it makes soloQ even that much more problematic. Because in SWF, you can communicate totem spawns. In soloQ this is nightmare. You would also have no way to indicate "I know 2 totem spots and I will clear them - do not bother with them and search in other parts of map" - making pentimento that much stronger especially in soloQ (not that it wouldn't be really strong now as most matches would have at least some totem destroyed).
2, it most definitely isn't the case. If you even open nightlight, you would see that on average 0K happens more often (22,89%) then 1K (18,14%) - hence minimum 1 kill is just not a thing (for it to be true 0K would need to happen very rarely). Also I don't think it should ever be the case - we are talking about multiplayer game so being selected for random unfair kill (just because) does not sound fair one bit. This would be the same as having hatch/gate for last person substantially buffed so that at least 1 survivor always gets out (why would you ever do that?).
3, yes I meant crutch and I did read your whole post :) As for comeback mechanisms - we already have those. It's very much possible that killer get 0 hooks until endgame and then via successful slug and big blunder on survivor's side he can still get 4K (and with your version it would be that much easier - because basekit disables with kill - who said that all 4 survivors won't be slugged by that point?). It does not happen often, but IMO it shouldn't happen often. Same thing for the other side - every survivor gets downed and killer won. Except survivors can have unbreakable, deliverance or just pure damn luck with 4% mechanics and come back to game. Sure enough if there are 4 gens left to repair and 2 survivors are dead there's no coming back to game - but at that point I don't think we want to introduce some real comeback (just leave the hatch in game so there's a reason for survivors to not go fully AFK).
Also - I don't really want to have more comebacks then we already have, because it basically means that your actions during match are that much less meaningful, because there's always something that can turn things around making your effort until that point meaningless. But sure enough - this one is a matter of taste and I acknowledge you have different idea about that one (and that's valid).
And as for if all 4 of them had time to finish gens before everyone died - so that means they had enough time to do totems too. That's not true at all. I have a lot of games where I get to endgame with our team having 6-8 hooks already - and it's not because of killer tried to play nice, it's rather because we didn't let killer tunnel (bodyblocks, chain flashlight blinds and doing "false" scratchmarks/sounds, flashlight saves/sabo saves, etc). Especially in these cases the match can very quickly end up in all 4 survivors got to end game but none of them got out alive. This of course happens more in SWF, but it's not limited to it. At least I personally play like this also in soloQ - and if I somehow get same-minded survivors in my team, then somehow killer will swear we are SWF group.
4, I agree on all points (but 1K minimum which results in 60% kill rate).
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3558544#Comment_3558544
This sounds interesting. It could make the game more spicy. But it could spoil the game just as much. As you said basically all hex perks (and boons and other perks - like inner healing) will need to be adjusted. All the maps would require a lot more totem spawn points (which means most if not all maps would need to be adjusted - like to be fair this would be nice thing regardless of this change as some maps have easy spawns, but it's still a lot of work). That's too many "moving parts". It would be too easy to make the game unplayable. But as a concept this would be very interesting and nice if done right.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3558615#Comment_3558615
Well I almost never do that since pentimento exists (there are certain cases when you are pretty sure killer has NOED so there are exceptions). Why would you spend a lot of time risking pentimento just to prevent NOED? When pentimento is arguably stronger then NOED?
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3558799#Comment_3558799
Yes. Most hex perks should get buff (but say plaything is already fine. So is dhope and I am pretty much convinced also NOED is fine right now).
I say NOED is fine, because before it's last nerf best indication of killer having NOED was how good he played. If he was clearly bad for your MMR - you better do all totems because otherwise you are not getting out... NOED used to inflate kill rate (and by proxy MMR) very much. I know we could basically always tell existence of NOED by killer's looping skill by very very high significance (it was noteworthy to mention when this was not the case and said killer was just mismatched because of matchmaking fail).
- While yes, SWF would have an advantage, I don't think the advantage is insurmountable of a difference. Especially since in soloq my teammates tend to get tunneled out or otherwise get themselves killed in other ways.
- As far as 'unfairness', the game is already riddled with it. Why did the Killer give the Feng who killed us all Hatch? Why did my Devour spawn on all 4 of them on Mother's Dwelling? You have to have a certain tolerance for nuisances to play this game, and I feel this is quite tame of an ask. As far as a 'free kill', I don't consider this to guarantee a kill in the vast majority of circumstances. The only time I would think it would give a free kill, is if the Killer had 8 hooks and no one dead yet. At that point, the Killer coulda easily won (3k/4k) by toggle-tunneling instead, so I don't think that would be too egregious of a circumstance given the alternative.
- 4 Slug would require 4 injured or 3 injured 1 healthy. The basekit version would stay lit, but not give the effects while someone is downed/on hook, and completely disable when someone fully dies. I kinda feel like if the Survivors gave the Killer a 4 slug they kinda deserved to lose there. I just had a soloq against Blight match the other day, and he only killed us because my 3 soloq teammates greedily attempted flashy saves against an Agi Blight, and I was altruistic (aka stupid) enough to attempt to save them. It was a free 3 escape, and a coordinated 4 escape, but it turned into a 3k from their tomfoolery, and a 4k from me wanting to have a hero moment.
- Yeah that was my working theory (alongside 1/5 hatch escapes to bring down the average from 62.5% to 60%). I haven't heard why they decided to balance around 60%, but I have usually used it for a framework for my suggestions in general. If my ideas for the game are too far from the dev intentions, then I figure there is 0 change they could get implemented. So I gotta work within the framework allotted.
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@zarr said:
I agree that MFT is problematic, but it isn't as problematic as it is sometimes being made out to, either. While it isn't like it doesn't do anything for an average player, I think an average survivor will much of the time be better off using something like Sprint Burst or Overcome, which are much easier to get good value out of than MFT. An average player doesn't plan chases ahead very much, nor do they have an intimate familiarity with maps, tile spawns and even the distances they can make relative to the killer, let alone factoring in Bloodlust. An average player even with MFT will often be forced (forcing themselves or let themselves be forced) to play a tile and get mindgamed on it. It does take a reasonably advanced player to really utilize MFT to its full effect, as compared to other Exhaustion perks one could be using instead. Although I will say that Windows Of Opportunity plus Made For This (and Resilience, to a lesser extent) can make even a very average survivor fairly difficult to catch, because depending on the map, they can just run pallet-to-pallet and force you to break most of them if they are safe enough. And if you try to mindgame tiles where line of sight is broken, this may well allow even a lesser survivor to make a lot of distance by simply leaving the tile on a lucky gamble, which is less risky with MFT because even if the killer catches on quickly to the survivor having left the tile, with MFT they can not seldomly make the next one regardless.
Which leads me to the next point however, which is that chase perks arguably are categorically weaker than macrogame perks, so to have a meta where even average survivors invest up to 4 perk slots into chase play is not necessarily a bad thing. There are a lot of game scenarios where chase perks simply don't do anything for you. When the game revolves around hook and generator defense or hit-and-run playstyles, the interactions you have with a killer seldomly constitute actual chases. More often than not, you will be caught or forced out of position, taking hits being unavoidable, having to aggressively pressure objectives and not having the killer just chase after you for prolonged periods of time. In these and similar macrogame scenarios, perks that help you do gens and heal faster and more reliably, to coordinate better and have more information, or get out of tricky situations (second-chance perks or in fact Exhaustion perks like Sprint Burst that as opposed to MFT can allow you to get out of dodge quickly when you are otherwise outpositioned) are much more valuable than chase perks which regularly don't do much of anything here.
Further, there are quite a few instances where MFT doesn't do anything because the killer has an instadown ability or add-on or perk. Exhaustion-causing killer add-ons and perks are regularly also more detrimental for MFT than they are for other Exhaustion perks, because with the latter as soon as you recover Exhaustion you can use them to their full effect, whereas it might already be too late to really benefit from MFT at that point. Even more notably, MFT doesn't do much against the strongest killers, particularly Nurse, Blight and Spirit don't care too much at all about it, again positioning MFT as an arguably categorically less beneficial perk because the strongest killers are precisely those you even rely on perks to help you compete against as they lack reliable base counterplay. Granted, this is actually more so a point against MFT, it being particularly problematic for M1 killers that already are comparatively less strong.
Even Otzdarva (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVIEc7sE-20) who conducted an experiment in which he faced some really good survivor players (some of whom are generally regarded as the best 1v1 survivor players period, such as St1v1 and ivan) in 1v1 chases as an M1 killer with and without MFT to compare how much of an impact it has argues that the 3% isn't too problematic. Unfortunately the VoDs of those chases have by now been deleted and I couldn't find anyone having noted down the times either, but I trust that Otz ran the numbers and so it can't possibly have been too much of a disparity for him to come to the conclusion that this aspect of MFT generally is fine even when facing the best of players. What additionally factors into this is the fact that other Exhaustion perks which can prolong chases quite a bit as well cannot easily or at all be used alongside MFT, so really a more fair comparison would be having chases with MFT versus chases with, say, SB, Lithe or Overcome.
I would agree with Otz that the Endurance effect pushes the perk over the top, and that Haste stacking is problematic. Although it is really only Hope that it is problematic alongside of, so rather than make already gimmicky and weak perks like Dark Theory and Teamwork: Power Of Two even worse, they should simply make it so that Hope specifically doesn't stack with other instances of Haste.
I also think Exhaustion stacking is a bit more of an issue than he makes it out to be. I think if one thing is interesting about MFT, it's that it really mixes up the meta by challenging the Exhaustion perk paradigm, which have historically been the most consistent staple in the game. So the fact that you can use a perk like Dead Hard or Balanced Landing alongside MFT to use if needed is a bit too much. I would welcome a change where MFT simply causes Exhaustion all match long, itself then obviously not being affected by Exhaustion anymore however.
My nerf suggestions then would be to remove the Endurance effect altogether and make the perk cause constant Exhaustion, as well as making it not stack with Hope. Alternatively, I could see simple numerical nerfs work out too, that being reducing the Endurance duration to 5 seconds and the movement speed boost to 2%.
In this post I went through Hens's chases with Otz. Many people were pointing out the change in chase time after hit, but many seemed to conveniently forget that MfT doesn't work while healthy. That means the healthy chases are without MfT just as much as the injured chases without it were. With that, Hens' MfT chases averaged 93.5s, and the non-MfT chases averaged 106s. The threat of death likely causes performance anxiety, or excess greed, due to thinking MfT makes you 'invulnerable', even in the 'best' of players.
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@ChaosWam said:
I think too many endgame perks would make it a problem.
Best I could recommend is it only activates when gates are opened and perks like Bloodwarden deactivate it during it's activation time.
This lesser basekit NOED doesn't function when ANYONE is downed/on hook/dead. So assuming you knew that from my suggestion the below follows.
Ok so you're saying if a Killer intentionally doesn't kill anyone and just brings NWO+Bloodwarden+Remember Me it might be a problem? I'm not sure I entirely follow.
In circumstance 1: The Killer opens the gate and goes for a Bloodwarden play, the team has no basekit NOED active in play while the first person is downed. They can risk leaving when they (likely) know the Killer opened the gate, especially since the soloq HUD shows gate touching. If it takes too long risking the search, the slugged player can crawl to the exit anyways, so the Killer is largely on a ticking clock as well. If the Killer tries to open the gate before getting their down, they risk players stealthing past.
In circumstance 2: The Killer gets their down (whether or not they hook), but now the totem is cleanseable and inactive, and the team has all the time in the world to fight their way through NWO and Remember Me without the risk of exposed because their teammate already 'disabled' it.
I guess if the Killer was a Knockout bleedout Killer, and went for 4 slug Bleedout kill from the start they could have a slight advantage if they went into endgame without a slug, but I feel like getting that first instadown wouldn't necessarily secure the final 3 after that. Even then most bleedout Killers secure either 1 bleedout kill before endgame, or get all Survs down long before endgame becomes a factor (at least in my soloq matches).
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@Sava18 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3558939#Comment_3558939
Ruin percent nerf is fine to revert
DS duration is fine to revert
IW nerf is actually perfectly fine as is, 100% was broken in more ways than one and the exhaustion fits it into the mft, resilience, dh, windows, ect.. build. 75% is also way better than 95% of people make it out to be.
Self care idc tbh
Thana really wasn't 6.1.0, the devs buffed it to be hard meta without realizing the consequences then hard nerfed it to only work with the killers that synergize with it most. I agree it should go back to what it was before 6.1.0.
The biggest reason the changes were fine is that change is good in live service games. Bhvr updates dbd at the pace of a snail compared to any other game. I was so bored of playing the game in the couple months leading up to 6.1.0. I was going to implode. Survivors where all the same and played the same. I didn't play survivor until after 6.1.0 very much but I am sure survivors were over playing against ruin/undying/pain res every game.
I could go grab the link to a comment I made about this if you wanted me to but OW is a prime example of what happens to a game with a 3 week patch cycle that transitions to a 1.5 month patch cycle. League is so large because of it's two patch cycle(roughly 85% of the time though out a year) even if changes are bad which some are it keeps the game ever changing.
I still disagree that change for the sake of it is good, especially when we have to break things that didn't need fixing. I would agree change for the sake of it would be good if they buffed the bottom 90% of trash perks that some are downright unusable, but they didn't take that path sadly. Don't get me wrong, the CA change for DS was probably one of the better base mechanic changes (even if I think self-healing should only count on completion), but they didn't have to butcher everything in their path for 1 good change.
As far as patch frequency, I think they might be too small of a company to burn money on console patches all willy nilly. But I would like more minor perk changes in these updates like 7.3.0. I even jokingly, but also completely seriously, suggested similar 4->5 buffs to mirror the Furtive/Background buffs, by including Fire Up and Counterforce to that list. I just wanted something, anything, more than 2 minor perks getting touched. Now to be fair, I personally really like the Furtive change, but I just wanted more perks tweaked in general.
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@Sava18 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3558928#Comment_3558928
I mean pop isn't better, it's current not total regression. Most changes in 6.1.0. were fine, ruin was done a bit dirty though.
I said revert half the nerfs. Pop was nerfed on percentage 25->20 and category total->current. Then it was buffed on the percentage 20->30. So half the nerf was reverted, and buffed on top of the revert for that part. Maybe I was unclear.
Ruin was double nerfed: Death and Percent. (I'd delete Percent's nerf)
DS was double nerfed: Endgame and Stun Duration. (I'd delete Duration's nerf)
Iron Will was double nerfed: Exhaustion and Percent. (I'd delete Percent's nerf)
Self-Care was double nerfed: Efficiency and Percent. (I'd bump Percent back up to 45%, so altruism is still better)
Thana was hard deleted (in 6.1.2/6.1.3): Percent tanked unless all 4 are injured. The old 1 was essentially now the current 3.
Each of these should have half of the nerfs reverted, or in Thana's case hard reverted to the pre-6.1.0 version, maybe even 4.5% per Surv instead of 5%, so that the 80s 5% would be roughly equal slowdown to 90s 4.5%.
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I'd go as far as revert half of all meta perk nerfs done in 6.1.0. They already did it with Pop (and buffed it on top of that with 25->30), so just bring back the healthy perks to be usable again.
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@Baal420 said:
Play the role of the killer is quite stressful, especially when you consider that within the first 50 seconds of the match, survivors can easily complete 2 generators, or at the very least, they are likely to finish one generator while having another an advanced. This is exacerbated by the fact that most maps are so bigger that efficient map control becomes nearly impossible. It's truly disheartening to observe how BHVR (Behaviour Interactive) significantly favors the survivor gameplay. Approximately 80% of survivors coordinate through external communication programs in pre-made groups, rendering the killer's role somewhat of a mockery. Playing as the killer becomes excessively stressful, and it's disappointing to see how they undermine the gaming experience for killers.
Killer is simultaneously more and less stressful. You have all the burden of success and failure on your shoulders, but you also can't be dragged down by that mother freaking Mikaela who waited till 61s on hook to rescue, or the Feng who burnt all the pallets early.
Gen count is important not to think of in terms of individually, but collectively. Think of any game where you have an HP bar. You can play at full effectiveness at 100% HP and 1% HP. Now swap that over to gens. You are still in the game as long as you have 1 gen, or 1HP. Also just like a fighting game, many times you suffer 'chip damage', when you play correctly, and block the opponent. So if it helps the mindset view losing the first 4 gens as nothing but 'chip damage'.
Map sizes I can understand. Just the other day I played Oni on Mother's Dwelling, and despite the power, it took me too long to traverse the map to get the blood needed. (I also relied too heavily on Scourge hooks [3/4 of my perks] and it didn't help that most of the action took place on the hard opposite side of the map of all 4 of them.) The key to making larger maps 'playable' is cutting up the map. Coal Tower (generally regarded favorably to most Killers in terms of size) is 8,448 Sq/M. Ignoring 2 gens from the onset can cut ~28% (2/7 gens) of the map out, and putting that on the largest map (Mother's Dwelling), you get a map of ~8595 Sq/M, or roughly a Coal Tower. This can be done to even greater extremes on maps like Azarov's Resting Place, cutting out nearly half the map from 11,264 Sq/M to 5,632 Sq/M. Since I do that, it makes most maps much more playable. Remember, you have to combine this with the above paragraph, you only need 1 gen to win, the rest are 'chip damage'.
As far as 80% of Survs being SWF, that is grossly inaccurate. The last stats (that I recall) they gave showed soloq sitting at slightly above 60%, so that would leave 40% max of players being any degree of SWF (which is vastly different matches being against 1/1/2, 1/3, 2/2, and 4 as each combination of SWF possibilities). That 40% is half your estimate. It is also important to weaponize your opponent's tools against them. Just as you can force a Sprint Burst to waste a Survivors time, you can get them to say the wrong thing to each other over comms. All too many times when playing with friends, they say something like "he dropped me", only to get downed seconds later. Make the Survivors you suspect of being a SWF give false callouts to one another, and you will get easier downs as a result.
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@PyramidHead916 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3558892#Comment_3558892
I've been playing since release day dude. It's never changed.
I'm sorry you've never learned how to improve over ~7 years, best of luck in finding out how to do so in the future (that is if you even care to, I know some people have a perpetual victim complex and want to be the victim just enough to be allowed to complain, but not enough to actually affect them).
I'm just saying you gave an easily winnable scenario (Trickster/Hag rock) and I gave you the solution, and you essentially stuck your fingers in your ears and essentially said 'lalalalalala its impossible I don't care'.
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@FreddyVoorhees said:
Which do you think is better and how does it fare for different killers ? Sometimes I feel I lose too much time looping on a single pallet and wish I just made them drop it and broke it right away. Is it efficient to just break them at every opportunity and not bother with mind game at all ?
With Ghostface I typically facetank every pallet. My goal is to make the Survivors think I will never respect a pallet, so they throw them nearly every time. Then when they get to a god pallet, I get it dropped the very first time, and never have to deal with it again. Then during a late mark where they reach the pallet (early mark being you instadown them on the spot), they think I'm gunna swing into it, but they drop it early and I can walk around it and get the marked down. That's my soft mindset going in as Ghosty at least.
Like others have mentioned though, you play around your opposition. If the baby Feng pre-drops every pallet without looking backwards, its best to make her drop 4-5 pallets, then corral the remaining Survivors into that pallet deadzone. It is so hilarious when that baby Feng then berates her team in endchat like "I lasted forever in chase, why'd you guys drop so quickly", and I'm like "my guy, you left no pallets on the entire map for them".
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@PyramidHead916 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3558873#Comment_3558873
Yeah sure buddy lol. There is no counter against good survivors.
Then why should it matter what perks they run lmao. If you have such a doom and gloom mindset that the enemies are always better than you, why play multiplayer games at all, and not just stick to single-player games? Have this mindset going into games and you'll win.
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3558615#Comment_3558615
Well yes, that it because doing totems is incredibly boring. I would also not make it mandatory.
I don't quite think this would make doing all 5 totems mandatory. Most matches result in a kill before endgame, so you don't even need to tap a totem if you saw Blight returning to hook, just keep it in the back of your mind while walking past. Even then, if they still don't manage to get a kill, the basekit NOED would arguably only grant a single hook. After that, the team can collectively search both the maps and their memory for totems, cleanse, and attempt the rescue for the 4 escape if they so desire. Even then, if the search isn't taking as short as expected, a low hook Survivor can hook trade instead (since the basekit NOED exposed is inactive while someone is on hook or in the dying state, so they can't prevent a trade), and start back at square 1 with partial map coverage already done.
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@PyramidHead916 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3553234#Comment_3553234
Tell that to hag Huntress and trickster. Ever get looped around a rock with no pallet without MFT? Guessing not
The counter is mix in a moonwalk, a reverse direction, or fully use power (Trickster) or fake it (Hag). The Killers you listed are short enough that they can hide their movements, and if the rock is too short then Trickster doesn't care because he throws knives over the rock. On Friday night I got hit by Trickster knives over a rock I thought was way too high to hit over, but ~6ft average Survivor height is short enough to get knives over the top due to the pill hitbox and every Survivor having Jeff's model as their 'actual' hitbox.