mizark3
mizark3
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552524#Comment_3552524
If the Killer interrupts a coop gen, they disrupt 2+ Survivors
I keep hearing this, but people that say it seems to forget that a killer can only chase one of you, letting the other one free to keep repairing the gen. And if he decides to stay on the gen to defend it for a while, all of you have free time to progress other gens.
Seriously, I don't know who said that is is more effective having one person in three gens than at least 2 people in one gen, but obviously didn't do the math.
The problem with these arguments lies in the extremes required.
And again shielding in the extremes. There is no extreme required to do a gen in 40 to 60 seconds less as you only need two survivors and some perks and items. The point is not that some hardcore speedrunners can do all gens in 2:40 minutes, but the simple fact that survivors have the capacity to do the gens as fast as that. I think it is not hard to understand.
The extremes mean nothing.
Alright, read my other post with the math to see what happens in an average game with progression, then:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552572#Comment_3552572
And when you see the math, then tell me how the problem here is not the base progression of two survivors, something happening and present in all games, and it is only a problem in the extremes.
The average (assuming the Killer knows how to play the game) has 1 on hook/being healed, 1 in chase, 1 going for the rescue/healing, and only 1 to pump gens. Even if that 1 person teleports to the next gen after every pop, that still takes 7.5 minutes minimum with no regression.
You all keep saying this, and talking about "realistic averages", but all of you seems to forget that usually, a survivor just don't stand still so you can hook him so you are at all moments in the 1/1/1/1 situation, specially at the start of the game. There are survivors that are good at not get caught in chases, there are perks that prevents you to find your next survivor if they are hiding well, there are perks that allow survivors to not even have to be good at not getting caught or hiding and just press W and predrop pallets so you have to waste time brute forcing the hit or just brake it and give him the chance to get to the next loop. There is a ton of things that could make you not be in the wonder situation of 1/1/1/1 for most of the game. And every second you spent out of that moment, is less time to be able to get it.
In other words, for people that talks about realistic averages and use them to argue, you all seems to make points assuming a killer would be able to always get and maintain that perfect situation at all times when is something that needs so many factors out of your control to favor you that when you get it is almost by chance.
"I keep hearing this" - If 1 is free to repair the gen, they are also free for the Killer to drop chase and take the free hit on them. Chasing 2 people lets you choose the person in the worse spot also. The person who runs to the Shack Window blocks that so the other person has to go out by Shack Pallet, as opposed to a solo Survivor always being free to take the better of the two.
"And again shielding in the extremes" - Yes, you are shielding a bad faith argument in the extreme case that all gens pop in 2m total, when that is closer to the 4k speedrun than the escape speedrun (which Survivors was ~3m). If you have 1 gen popping in 40s with 3 people, or 1 gen popping in 60s with 2 people, that still shows it would be better for them to split and complete 3 in 90s as opposed to 3 in ~165 with trioing gens, or 3 in ~100s with a duo and a solo, and that is assuming travel time between gens doesn't even exist (which would tip the balance even further away from your camp).
"Read my other post" (Which was posted AFTER my reply) - First off the solo gen with an add-onless Commodious/Event toolbox should shave 16s, or a 74s total gen time. So I'm not sure how you came to your numbers. Secondly Regression exists alongside progression, and the mirror equivalent is pallets. Killers cannot regress or 'heal' a gen, but a Survivor cannot repair or 'heal' a broken pallet. Just as Any Means Necessary allows you to lift the unbroken pallet back up, Regression perks help slow down the progression of gens. However if the Survivor pops the gen or the Killer breaks the pallet, it is permanently gone. Finally a Toolbox is a multiplier to increase gen speed (by 50%), and co-op is a multiplier to reduce gen speed (by 15% per person). I can't fathom the argument that people doing the slower option is too fast. The duo Commodious gen followed up by a duo gen takes ~90s (total), compared to the 2 solo commodious gens getting done in 74s (total). The gen times are already longer to group up than solo, so that clearly isn't the problem. The only time this is a problem is if Killers are camping gens, and never leveraging pressure. That would be a failing on the Killer's part to learn how to play the game, and that could only be from someone who had the broken CoB+OC+Eruption as their only method of winning, not any skill whatsoever.
"You all keep saying this, .../'realistic averages' " - (the three paragraphs below)
Partially true, yes. There are roughly 3 phases of the game, early/mid/end. Early game is basically before the first hook(or kill in the edge cases of Onryo/Tombstone Myers), mid game which typically roughly functions along the 1/1/1/1 paradigm, and endgame where gens are done. Even in the absurd case of an AFK Killer and the Survivors teleporting to gens and gates, that still takes the first 4 gens solo'd at 90s, the 5th gen quad pumped in ~41s, the gates opened in 20s, totalling a ~151s or 2m 30s permanent early game. Meanwhile if the Killer is actually playing the game, the 1/1/1/1 concept is in play more than 2m30s, even when the Killer is ineffective.
In addition, 1(Hook/be healed/be slugged)/1(Chase)/1(Unhook/healing)/1(pump gens) isn't the perfect scenario, it is merely the normal scenario. An even better scenario is 2/1/1/0 or 2/0/2/0, or 3/1/0/0, or 3/0/1/0, or you've won at 4/0/0/0. Killers call 1/1/1/1 the normal scenario because they utilize their M1 skill, their power, their meta knowledge of the map or Survivor playstyles in order to shorten chase+hook times to be faster than the unhook+heal times. Then you run into a better Survivor taking longer, then a worse one taking shorter, but you ultimately hover around that normal case 1/1/1/1. If that isn't the normal case in anyone's matches, I suggest checking out some more guides or practicing power at odd spots. You don't know if you can land the Huntress hatchet until you try, so always attempt new shots. In the short run you likely will lose a couple of matches being forced to reload early because you wanted to test a high wall, but then in other matches you will get downs all the faster, because you won't attempt it at that same spot that didn't work, and use it in the new spot you learned that does work. Learn to lose (take risky power usages), lose to learn (find good and bad spots), lose (now) to win (more later). Even things like Ghostface cloaked redstain or crouch mindgames at loops are things to try, not only ranged characters risky shots.
Also, holding W and predropping essentially means 20s per hit, as the Killer can walk around a predropped pallet. Nothing stops the Killer from Bruteforcing Bloodlust back, which kicks in at 15s. So that means even if they try to actually play a pallet, they are still going down. Also even if their perks allow them to hide easier, or delay chase, that just means Killer Perks that do the same will shave this time down. STBFL cutting down the post-hit CD shortening the 20s to ~15s, or BBQ/Floods/Nowhere to Hide to reveal non Distortion users, and Ultimate Weapon to reveal non Calm Spirit users. Then on top of that you can run gen slowdown to buy extra time to burn through the pallets in a final war of attrition, and win by not even mindgaming or utilizing power.
-- Separate from the individual section replies above--
All of this assumes the Killer brings skill and an actual loadout, just alongside the Survivors bringing skill and an actual loadout. Not the sweatiest loadout possible, but normal/average scenarios. If the Survivors brought far more skill and/or tools to the table (like a giga toolbox on all of them), then the Killer is mostly going to lose. Similarly if the Killer brings far more skill and/or tools (like C33+Alch Ring Blight), they too will mostly win and the Survivors will mostly lose. If the Killer suffered from Eruption Inflation or facecamping Bubba and that artificially raised their MMR with kills from tools and not skill, then they are going to need to lose, in order to lower their MMR back down to Survivors of their actual skill range, since they can no longer abuse the tools that gave artificial wins. This can be true in the opposite case as well, with juicy toolboxes or old CoH or MfT artificially inflating Survivor MMR, and losing the matches without them.
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@dbdthegame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552549#Comment_3552549
Survivors crank out gens at the same rate regardless of which killer I'm playing. An interesting theory, but one that's demonstrably incorrect.
You say that for your games, I know I cleanse dulls and open chests in my Survivor games that don't include the sweatlord Killers. So while you may be technically correct, all Survivors pump gens at 1 charge/second, but in reality people will take sweatier actions against sweatier Killers.
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@dbdthegame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552124#Comment_3552124
"if you are capable of landing hits"
You'd be surprised how many Blights have an issue with this very thing.
I think Nurse/Blight/Wesker kill rates are so low because of this very issue. Weaker players flock to the stronger Killers hoping the Killer's innate strength will carry them to a victory. They then lose a bunch, and the Survivors, expecting a stronger Killer player, sweat to pump gens to even have a chance of escaping. Those same Survivors would always lose to any SupaAlf/Momo/Alranican, or even mostly lose against a normally skilled main, but win against those baby Nurse/Blight/Weskers. Those baby Killers are still in top MMR (because it is all too easy to reach), and weigh down the averages.
The opposite likely occurs with weaker Killers, with stronger players seeking a challenge, and the Survivors underestimating the player due to the Killer selection ("oh its just Clown/Onryo" -ends up being the Clown Manifesto writer or OPWillie).
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@Batusalen said:
They should make at least the minimum time a gen can be done higher, indeed. Starting with the base progression two or more survivors can do in a gen.
It's not logical that with just 2 survivors they can shave off 38 seconds from a gen. With 3, 48 seconds. With 4, 50 seconds. And this without counting great skill checks, perks, toolboxes, brand new parts, etc.
It should be changed so with 2 survivors doing a gen they could only take away 20 seconds approx from the gen, and then maybe escalate it so it still maintain the 50 seconds with 4 to compensate only "pressuring" one gen.
The problem with that is it already is more efficient to split up on gens. Making co-op gens more inefficient will only make the problem worse in the long run. I'd argue the opposite, to have co-op be more efficient than soloing gens. If the Killer interrupts a coop gen, they disrupt 2+ Survivors, so a max of 2 gens can be pumped, but if a Killer disrupts a solo gen, they only stop 1, and leave 3 gens to be pumped.
@Xernoton said:
In my opinion they should add a mechanic, that prevents survivors from rushing the gens in under 4 minutes. This is only achieved by people, who focus solely on rushing gens anyway and it would already help a bit. It wouldn't hurt any of the more casual players, while helping with the absolute extremes.
Well, either that or the long requested and frankly overdue early game help that especially low tier killers need. But that is not going to happen as it was apparently deemed unfun.
Yeah, maybe a perk that blocks the most progressed gen for 30s when a gen pops, or another perk to block the 3 furthest gens for the first 2 minutes.
@Huge_Bush said:
Just play Nurse and Blight and end chases quickly. Then you won’t have to worry about gen speed. Otherwise, you’ll have to wait a very long time.
Yep develop different skillsets and raise your account MMR, that way when you swap to a normal Killer you can't stand a chance /s. That's why you don't want to get addicted to overpowered Killers. You need to lose to learn, and if you refuse to even stomach the possibility of losing, it will bite back causing you to lose more in the long run.
@9000OniMain said:
They should remove gen regression and gen speed, I don't use any gen regression as oni and it helps until you realize even with quick downs it doesn't help with the speed gens take. So no gen regression, no speed buff and slightly higher repair time
Gen regression is an important crutch for players learning Killer. The problem is when people refuse to take off the weights and can win through bruteforce attrition. Making gen regression for Killer similar to Exhaustion for Survivor might be better than removing it altogether, but if they did that then I'd agree with removing/reworking Survivor gen speed perks.
@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552446#Comment_3552446
That you are ignoring the fact even when pointing it out. The problem is not that a well coordinated group with builds and toolboxes can do the gens that fast, the problem is that they can do them that fast in the first place.
So, while you are partly right (I would love for you to explain how the killer has any control on gen speed), the skill of the killer is not the only factor on gens flying faster than it should, and arguing "skill issue" as being the only problem like you are doing is wrong and deceptive.
Gen times should be touched. If adding max charges or reducing base progression is a no-no as survivor would cry that they hate to do gens and would need to stay in one place more time, they at least should make the penalty for having multiple survivors in one gen higher, so 2 survivors can't shave off 40 seconds of a gen just by repairing it together.
When this is done, then we can talk about the skill issues of killer that are not able to stop gen progression effectively.
@Blinckx said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552369#Comment_3552369
This, until it's not a problem for survivors, devs are not going to touch it
5 gens can be done in 2.20 ? No problem, that's healthy for the game, on and while we're on it let's nerf and obliterate any regression perks in the game
The problem with these arguments lies in the extremes required. Hypothetically you can have giga genrushers like seen in Hens' video with 3m22s average escape time, but if you take the opposite extreme, you can get speedruns of Killer 4king under 2 minutes with Billy/Bubba/Legion/Ghostface/Blight/Pinhead, and under 3 minutes with the vast majority of the others. The extremes mean nothing. The median and mean both matter much more.
The average (assuming the Killer knows how to play the game) has 1 on hook/being healed, 1 in chase, 1 going for the rescue/healing, and only 1 to pump gens. Even if that 1 person teleports to the next gen after every pop, that still takes 7.5 minutes minimum with no regression.
@WilliamSN said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552441#Comment_3552441
Just because something is "the norm" doesn't mean its okay or balanced.
The fact that killer can be put into an auto-loss situation just because of map RNG+spawn RNG is fundamentally unhealthy.
If BHVR considers that fixing the spawns is too much work, then putting 30s of basekit corrupt is the second best option to adress the survivors spawning 3-4 gens from the get go.
Hearing 2-3 gens pop while you're literally walking from your spawn area to the survivor spawn area to *try to find them* is one of the most unmotivating experiences in DBD.
The only way to hear 2/3 gens pop when crossmapping is to be AFK for a minute from the start. Just play the game and that won't happen.
-- Separate from the replies above --
Honestly I wouldn't mind a basekit scream from all Survivors with a Loud Noise at their spawn position. You could run Calm Spirit to negate it, and would make it more expected to be found early, so being AFK is all the more of a punishment. The Killer has initial intel, but nothing lingering, making Lethal Pursuer and Corrupt Intervention still have value. (I can't tell you how many locker grabs Lethal has given me from the start.)
This seems to be the primary complaint, is the lack of knowing where to start, and fumbling for the first minute. Experienced players aren't given too much more than what they already mostly knew/assumed. That way this primarily helps the whining Eruption MMR inflation Killers who mistakenly believed they were good at the game, and now are getting stomped against Survivors of their MMR, but outclassed in skill.
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I've been having a blast with Ghosty/Clown/Singularity/Myers/Legion.
Ghosty requires you to play a macro game to play Ghostface instead of micro game Chaseface. Chaseface loses, Ghostface wins. Mark people and threaten pallets. Never be afraid of letting a marked Surv escape. The pressure of the instadown will prevent them from doing anything other than gens for the next minute, and you can sneak up on them if you leave them from the onset. This works even better with the marked Oblivious add-on, because you can mark Surv 1, down/chase Surv 2, and when you get the hook or enough pallets, you sneak swap back to Surv 1 while waiting on power CD.
Clown requires the Killer player to know that Yellow bottles exist, which newer Clowns never use. If you find you don't use Yellow Bottles enough, restrict yourself to only Yellow Bottles for 5 matches, then you'll get the muscle memory how to use them down. Now you can combine Purple and Yellow Bottles for easy downs at nearly every loop that isn't a god pallet.
Singularity requires M+K, sorry console players. Also don't roll RPD/Lery's. Otherwise anyone complaining about EMPs being OP is legit self-reporting for a lack of skill. It takes 2-3s to place a pod and retag, so if someone detags in chase, you just retag and bought yourself 20s of Survivor wasted time. Since your time is 4x as important, any retag (where you NEED the tag for a hit) under 5s is a win for Killer. Teleporting to a tag makes up for the majority of time lost retagging, so it shifts the balance further in the Killer's favor.
Myers required learning a new gimmicky playstyle (to not abuse Tombstones). I've started Thana/Plaything/Penti/(personal pick slot, I find Bam funny on Myers). Thana forces heals, when they normally skip it. Plaything makes T3 terrifying if uncleansed. Penti makes gens take decades, especially with full force Thana. Penti plus max Thana makes gens take 180s! You need to get 2 quick basic M1 hits, which people are glad to give you if it means they can save the pallet for T3 Myers. Simple mindgame or Bloodlust and bam, they are on hook.
Legion means stab go brr. If people don't heal, Blood Echo deletes the common threats, Fearmonger too if you want them to never have the perks. If you can't win against injured exhausted Survivors as a normal M1 Killer, watch some guides or something, it isn't difficult if you've learned the game.
I also like playing Trapper on occasion, and I was using the Coffee Grounds+Silent Trap as a fun build before they planned on basekitting 1.5 times Coffee Grounds. It is gunna be great once that goes Live, and Trapper is going to be much more enjoyable after that.
Blight makes the game a free win and more frustrating honestly. Every match is on me to lose, instead of a even back and forth, or the Survivor to win. Every loss as Blight shows I suck (at that point in time), but who can blame you if you lose as an M1 Killer against old Cowshed. Helps soften the blow of losses.
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I want to say this happened yesterday or the day before to me. It was a good/DC/good/DC/good match. There was no DC penalty so it wasn't my internet. I just figured it was steam goofing off or something.
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I'd be fine with it if it required the 'hold the match hostage' timer of 10 minutes straight of not touching gens to be vulnerable to the sacrificial blade, that way Survivors can either kill each other for hatch if the Killer is doing it to them, or you can kill the afk that the Killer has been ignoring.
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@GensByDaylight said:
Honestly, DS at 5 seconds should be basekit. Just make it disable upon a protection hit, and slightly tweak that definition and tunneling would be solved.
I'm sure both sides would make up 3000 reasons why tunneling is needed and attacking with DS is needed, but that always happens.
The problem with protection hits is their ruleset. If the Killer hits the bodyblocking rescuee for the healthy rescuer, that isn't a protection hit. At the same time, if the Killer intentionally tunnels the rescuee and the rescuer was injured, that does count as a protection hit. So the Killer can choose to tunnel and deny anti-tunnel perks as long as the rescuer is injured before the rescue.
To help prevent offensive DS and bodyblocking, I'd just remove collision from unhooked Survivors until they do a Conspicuous Action. That way a Killer can 'shoulder-check' a Survivor, and if they phase through, they can ignore them easily instead of being forced to eat the anti-tunnel when the Survivor tries to block for their teammate.
As far as DS, I think the perk itself should disable the Killer's power and set their charges and ammo (if applicable) to 0 for 5s per gen remaining. This way it doesn't affect M1 tunneling at all, but if Nurse tunnels at 5 gens, she can't blink for 25s, and even then she'll need to wait 6s to regain her charges after that. The below paragraph is more general, and not specifically directed at what you talked about.
As others have mentioned, CA definitions do need an update. Completing a flashy/pallet save should count as a CA, but also shift self-healing to only count as a CA on completion. It just seems silly if post hook and you had your hand off your mouse, then you accidentally tap M1/2 and heal/sabo for a milisecond and now it legalizes your tunneling. User error, fair, but its simple QoL to not count if it was less than 1s. Healing in particular seems silly to me, because you can be healed by someone else, but when that medkit touches your skin by your own hand, your life is forfeit. Personally I wouldn't go as far as an allied heal counting as a CA on you, because you can be For The Peopled under hook with no input from you, and then any instadown could chew through that despite you not progressing the game yet.
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Back when cheaters were rampant, it was literally half my Anon players being cheaters also. That and like others have mentioned, people use it as an excuse to troll instead of playing the game. Currently about 1/3rd-2/3rd the time I see a Killer on Anon mode, they were the sweatiest $5 Subway giftcard playing psycho to grace the game.
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@Hunkulese said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3550600#Comment_3550600
So do you actually have a point? If there are multiple other options that are all easier, why does it matter where it is? It's completely skippable.
If you don't think I had a point it just shows you didn't read any of what I wrote.
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If such a thing was limited to a middle/low single digit number of players on a list (rotating out the oldest when a new one is added, or being able to lock in or manually remove those from that small list), then this would likely be fine. This would also need the limitation to actually play with someone before block/banning them. Otherwise the problems others have listed would most certainly crop up.
I don't think anyone has a legitimate issue with not playing with the unhook spam Survivor or bleedout Killer that both are intentionally being a jerk, each having fewer people to torture. If they act so uncouth that no one wants to play with them, then they honestly don't deserve to play. Just like when we learn as kids, if you attack another child unjustly, no one wants to hang out with you, so you have to actually not be anti-social. This is lacking on the internet, so people act anti-social and get away with it.
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@Hunkulese said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3550449#Comment_3550449
I might be willing to concede that it was anything more than a minor annoyance if there wasn't the braindead easy memory challenge and BP challenge that puts you in the exact same spot. Why aren't you considering the memory challenge as a starting choice? If you're saving BP for later, Tough Stuff is a side path.
If those weren't there, sure, maybe put it somewhere else, but it's extremely easy to bypass it.
I didn't exclude it if that was what you were wondering. I didn't edit to delete the path, I just didn't comment on it and left it visible. Other starters were included to show how easy or less difficult those were (even if still time consuming with the 3 normal Killer wins). If anything, including it would help my point because of how much easier it is, so it would show the extreme difficulty difference in a different starter would be even more absurd.
Also with the 'saving for later', the 3 Unbroken Iri tome is on the 'most efficient' banking BP path, so it isn't a side path. Since its path touches the bottom right, you would have to burn a big and a small (on the far right to reach the Survivor Big in the bottom right) going with the memory, or 2 smalls going down the bottom.
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@Hunkulese said:
Gamers really need to stop being entitled babies. Any challenge that is even remotely a challenge is immediately met with incessant whining. There isn't a single thing wrong with this challenge. It's not required to progress. Just throw it on after you've done the easy challenges and you'll get it fairly quickly just playing normally.
It actually improves your chance of your team winning because being the stay-on-gen guy while someone is hooked helps the team immensely.
The problem is this is a starter choice, not a side of a fork. I made this image to show how easy the other starter choices are, and better spots for a never go down challenge.
The other thing is if you go against a skilled enough Killer, the team needs the theoretical 8 safe hooks instead of the 6 safe hooks the 3 remaining people can give. This requires rolling into a baby Killer and ratting to the extreme.
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Gideon's and RPD are simple macro tests for Killer. Do you have any macro skill? If yes, Killer wins. If no, Survivors win.
With that being said, I legit can't enjoy Singularity on RPD. Gideons at least has larger spaces, just open enough for biopod tags, but RPD is 'unplayable' for Singularity. If you go into the match thinking 'I'm gunna play as M1 Killer with Scythe', then you can win as Singularity, but you normally go in thinking 'I want to have fun' and RPD is not fun for Sing.
I still don't fully trust Nightlight, but I think its fine if you view it with the lens of 'this is only sweatlords self-reporting, who won't report their losses' (especially since if you die first or second, you have to wait until the end of the lobby to report the Killer's info, and who is going to wait for that? maybe a facecamp victim or two).
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@WilliamSN said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3549764#Comment_3549764
7% on killer is fundamentally the same as 7% on survivor, you can't argue out of this lmao.
"Just go after someone else" is not valid advice, what do i do if the other guy also has hope? Just curl up and die?
There's a difference between being "hard" and impossible, catching a good looper is hard, catching someone running faster than you is impossible.
Nobody uses devour hope because it's quite literally a perk that can be removed before you even get value from it with the way totems spawn either out in the open or next to a gen, this while glowing like a las vegas casino sign. Don't try to compare hope to devour.
There's no "acting smart" about countering a free 7% speed bonus in the last 20% of the match.
Playing 110s? Enjoy a 70% longer chase... try to use your power? You slow down to a crawl and the survivor just lightning McQueens over to the next loop or out the door.
Playing 115s? Enjoy a 60% longer chase... and chances are your power doesn't have a catch up mechanic so youre stuck w keying (myers, pig, GF, Trapper,doctor etc etc).
Realistically my only option would be see into the future, notice the survivors will be running hope, and queue up as nurse/blight so the game doesn't even reach the the halfway mark before i 4k.
If players crutch on camping/tunneling/Nurse/Blight, they never develop the skills to win without crutches. Hens and other Killers showcased being able to master Killer to the point of getting a ~92% winrate without power/camping/tunneling/excessive slugging. They don't have cheats, or anything you or I couldn't accomplish. Play to learn, learn to lose, and lose to learn, then we can improve our winrates to their levels.
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For the map reliance, I think a 5-7s CD and a half tag on a blob hit on Surv could help there. It keeps the Biopod as the better option when you can get it, but allows for Lerys and RPD to be playable now.
I'd also enable the spacebar when holding M2, and the spacebar would attempt an autoaim shot on someone tagged in FOV. Sometimes you just barely miss and hit the wall next to the Survivor, have to break it, then try to tag the Surv again, and its annoying. Since it would be an autoaim shot, it might TP you to the wrong person, so the normal M1 TP would still be available also. You could aim up to not tag anything, and it would autoaim generously downward for the TP. (Maybe the same autoaim cone size as the biopod tag size.)
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3540453#Comment_3540453
CSGO is absolutely not the same thing. It's symmetrical. In this game killer having high ping has triple the benefit while survivor has NEVER any benefit.
a, he gives shorter reaction time to survivor until his info arrives to server (first extra benefit)
b, he sees survivor where there are no survivor any more (second extra benefit)
c, he hits something even if there was action that should not allow it.
For this reason, it's not "it would look extremely weird for killer", but it looks 3x extremely weird for survivor. Like the amount of BS is absolutely insane. That's why everyone is constantly complaining about it. You never see killers speaking about lags with exception to apologize for some BS that happens in game. DBD is the ONLY game I know of where you actually want to use proxy servers to worsen your ping. Every other game understands, that having bad ping should be neutral or at worst case a small negative. Not a winning strategy.
The funny thing is lag does affect certain Killers, and they are among the most complained about poor QoL experiences. Singularity, Doctor, and Ghostface all utilize 'Survivor' lag, aka it disfavors the user, or in this case is a rare example of favoring the Survivor over the Killer. So many times you get revealed through a wall as Ghostface, or the Biopod tag lock-on is barely broken, or shock them only for them to drop the pallet or vault, and that was lag. (I love Ghosty and Sing, but Doc is unplayable garbage to me as I hate the Survivor being laggy giving them an advantage that often.)
As far as I am aware, the only time lag disfavors the Killer in normal matches, is pallet stuns. In that case, the laggier person gets hit (with the attack or the pallet stun) because it is the only place with validation implemented. I would recommend implementing that same level of validation to corners, where the server says the laggier person loses, but not open spaces.
Edit: I just realized this latency tangent I responded to has nothing to do with the topic, so I won't respond back if you respond to me to avoid going further off topic, but feel free to respond regardless.
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@WilliamSN said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3549292#Comment_3549292
The math you've done, im going to assume is missinformed.
Those percentages are how many people are running *the exact same build*.
This is the more correct dataset - https://nightlight.gg/perks/viewer?role=survivor&sort=pick&shown=pick&start_days=28
The data shows that in ~24k matches (96k survivors) -
26%~ used MFT (25k survivors)
25%~ used Adren (24k survivors)
9%~ used adren (8640)
The problem lies in the fact that survivors *aren't* easier to catch or outplay in mid-game because of the current meta giving you permanent benefits for being injured, and incase you break chase or get off hooks, you can slam gens 9% faster thanks to resi, then to top it all off they get an extra 7% Speed permanently because they inevitably cranked all the gens out.
Survivor endgame perks being used so frequently indicates that the core game *isn't* considered difficult by survivors, why else would you handicap yourself with less perks? Much like playing 1 perk nurse or blight, its because fundamentally the game is easy enough to not need the extra boost.
I used the numbers you provided, but even if we were to assume every Hope user is also an MfT user, I already accounted for that in the previous post. Hope was still only in the ~9% usage rate among sweatlords self-reporting, hardly a menace across every match. You were specifically complaining about the combo of the 2, and I used the combos summed together that you listed (3 usage rates included Hope+MfT). ~91% of Survivors are still chaseable, downable, and killable in endgame. This also completely ignores how much easier it is to kill people down a perk slot.
If the Survivor is injured the entire match, then the macro skill of dropping chase, pressuring gens, snowballing downs, and so on is far more important than the micro skill of mindgames mid-chase. It then took significantly less time to down them in the deadzone they created by being forced to drop juicier pallets sooner, than being able to greed them while healthy. Too many people think micro/chase is the only skill in the game, and they self-report every time they complain about matches being too difficult on the whole.
Endgame perk selection most certainly doesn't correlate to SUCCESS in reaching endgame, merely the desire. I have proven with data that 74% matches won before endgame is most certainly easily attainable, and I'm not the greatest Killer. 26% success rate is garbage in terms of perk selection.
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I think it would be fine if they have the code to consider CAs on completion, not the attempt alone. If they expanded this to completing a self-Heal/Flashy Save/Sabo then this would be fine, as long as the self-heal/sabo aren't CAs unless completed. It seems silly that the Claudette healing herself in the corner is more Conspicuous than getting healed by a teammate, especially since both are working to the same end. Sometimes you accidentally tap M2 off of hook and you tapped the medkit/sabo for a milisecond, and now can be tunneled for nothing actually happening to change the game state.
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Anti-facecamp will fix this at least, so help is on the way.
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@Hex_Ignored said:
finding a TV that isn't turned off by her constant teleport spam can be quite difficult, especially on larger maps like mothers dwelling or maps with complex layouts like RPD
More often is the case where the soloq teammates decide to never grab a tape in the first place. I had a tape and I pointed out 3 TVs, 2 of which were currently active, and the teammate duoing the gen refused to grab the tape.
@HugTechLover said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3549024#Comment_3549024
Dude. THIS. Every time I go for a tape she just happens to find me, and then spam teleport until I’m condemned. She can be soo frustrating to play against.
That particular playstyle is a nightmare to go against. It is similar to being turbo tunneled, never being allowed to play the game. You basically need perks to counter that from the onset, or soloq Survs to be on point pumping gens. Sadly neither pre-req are likely. There is a build (that I will not detail) that Sadako can use that makes it nearly as bad, if not worse, than the dedicated facecamping Bubba build. Arguably it is more effective, because people know the counter to Bubba, but not Condemn Sadako when she is specifically targeting 1 person. I respect the Sadako in soloq I ran into that came up with the strat, but it is miserable to go against.
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@WilliamSN said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3548591#Comment_3548591
The thing with endgame survivor perks is that you're essentially saying "I expect to make it to end-game with only 2-3 perks because right now the game is that easy"
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/ZE7M8SRRQOMM/image.png
This is reflected in the loadouts and killrates, under no circumstance should survivors feel like they will pump out all 5 gens consistently enough to bring Hope and Adren that often.
Hope and Adren being this opressively strong just compound the problem because killer has no realistic way of coming back or even securing a few couple kills EVEN IF killer also brings an end-game delay build.
both perks essentially remove the agency in the final 10-20% of the match to the point where they might aswell just teleport the survivor to the exit gates as soon as all 5 gens get completed.
1.16+.35+.28 = 1.79% Hope + MfT
If 2% of Survivors are (taken to the extreme) 'unkillable' in endgame, yet more easily killable in mid game, I'd say that isn't a problem. They don't expect to make it to endgame, they are relying on the law of large numbers to eventually have that single match where they get to use their haste perks where the Killer doesn't just facecamp the basement hook in endgame. Remember, you need to be alive and not on hook to use hope, and since (at the time of this post according to Nightlight) ~91% of Survivors don't bring Hope, that means the Killer can easily chase the other remaining 91% of players in endgame instead (if they failed to get a 4k before the gens pop anyways).
Using dead by stats eu, we can find gen protection stat, or when you win (as Killer) before the Survivors pop the final gen.
I'm sitting at 74%. Even if we were to assume the final Survivor gets hatch every time (3k), and I get 0k in the unprotected cases (as opposed to the full range of 0-4k after the final gen pops), I still have 55.5% kill rate, which is still killing more than half the Survs when stacking the stats of the deck against me, and I even let people go when they bribe me with BPS/Anni Cakes. Still, 74% of my matches, Survivors don't even get to use Hope. It's fine as is, and haste stacking with it is also fine, because of the opportunity cost (of picking another, better perk) prevents them from having anything of real value.
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- Trapper - Run them into my traps
- Wraith - Hit and run baby
- Myers - MfT ain't gettin' you nowhere with my 16m TR
- Doctor - Cry (my boy is just outdated now)
- Freddy - Snares serve as a Purple Clown bottle
- Pig - Crouch button works nice for free hits
- Clown - 5.06 (Yellow) vs 3.502 (Purple+MfT) ain't gettin' them nowhere
- Legion - Thana slows the game down enough to either force heals to counter it, or the raw gen slowdown if powered through
- Ghosty - Instadown from stealth, marked if healthy, or normal hit if injured
- Nemmy - Cry at shack, then win everywhere else
- Cenobite - Can't run with chains on yuh bud, and can't get the haste while not running
- Onryo - Force TVs to be ran for enough game slowdown to delete pallets through attrition
- Dredge - Stay injured and feed Nightfall, stay healthy and burn pallets without MfT, its a lose-lose for Survivor over time
- Skull Merchant - I'm sorry, I refuse to hold games hostage
- Singularity - Laugh when their team spends 30s to grab an EMP, run over, burn off the tag, only for me to retag 2s later and TP back on them. Unless I get Lery's/RPD where you aren't allowed to set up Biopods for no discernible reasons across half the map, then cry.
Everyone else can get a normal power hit with their M2 for the most part.
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The person very likely had a bad match with an anti-social Killer acting so uncouth as to 'force' a DC from their teammate. I'd give them a pass as this being an emotional post, but if they keep it up then I'd join in correcting them.
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@WilliamSN said:
Imo, bhvr needs to re-define what a conspicuous action is and include bodyblocks and protection hits as such.
Survivors shouldn't be able to weaponize a mechanic thats there to prevent them from being tunneled straight off hook to take a free protection hit for their rescuer.
Bodyblock/take a protection hit with basekit BT/OTR/DS? Disable the perk and send the survivor straight to the ground.
The problem with protection hits is they are very loosely defined. Technically, I can be injured, intentionally bodyblock for a healthy ally with a Styptic or Dead Hard or other Endurance, and it doesn't count as a protection hit. Protection hits only count if you take a hit while someone else is injured within a certain range of you (which technically can include Huntress snipes when the teammate is behind cover and you are in the open, or the person is a pixel outside of protection range).
That's why a 'phasing' no collision for the entire duration of the Survivor not doing a CA would probably help both ends. The person runs through you in basement instead of taking the Endurance hit for their teammate? They came off of hook, down the rescuer and you're good. Killer tunneling you and bodyblocks the loop? Run through them and Fast vault the window/drop the pallet.
I've seen far more Survivors be intentionally tunneled through their anti-tunnel than successfully weaponizing it (effectively). If they intentionally bodyblock, they essentially gave me a free hit, and now I have no DH to worry about, unlike their rescuer could have. Normally I chase the rescuer because the pressure of getting the formerly hooked Survivor healed gives me more slowdown as well.
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@Alice_pbg said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3548152#Comment_3548152
You know... if I didn't know that the quoted post doesn't change regardless of any edit... I would have assumed you just edited your comment.
Guess I just stopped reading your comment for some reason... that's my bad. Sorry. It must be the yugioh player in me.
I only remembered that I did go around it, not where it was. It is obnoxious, should be an end node on the web thing.
Yeah I get it, my first post was too large of a paragraph and could easily have been 2 and been much more readable. You're good.
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Yeah I think as long as the Survivor still hasn't done a CA, the Killer can 'shoulder-check' the Survivor and if they are phasing, the Killer knows an anti-tunnel perk can still be active.
Also should this be Feedback/Suggestions rather than General Discussion? Or is it you more want to explore this issue than outright suggest it?
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@Alice_pbg said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3548061#Comment_3548061
But... it's not. You can go around and leave it for last.
I'd agree if this was a middle fork as can be seen in the top left between the 2 Survivor Glyph challenges, or right near the end, but this is one of the starting paths. Can you go around? Sure. Should one of the starting tomes be among the hardest ones in the lot? Most certainly not.
Edit: I already addressed how obtuse it would be to go around for a starter tome, I guess you didn't read my first post.
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@Alice_pbg said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3548044#Comment_3548044
yeah... it's like the 250 protective hits after an unhook achievement.
just play and get it eventually. don't worry about it.
I think the difference is the achievement is something that can be done while progressing multiple other tomes/achievements. This tome is on the critical path for progression. It isn't like it is far off in the corner being the last tome do be done for the set, its the prerequisite for near all other tomes to be done. I mean in theory you can loop around from behind, but that is such an obtuse method I think people can be fair in complaining. Tomes cause people to be laser focused on a singular method of completion, and if they can't go down, they will giga-rat and leave their entire team to die while bringing Sole Survivor and Left Behind from the onset (if they get frustrated enough).
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@WilliamSN said:
As I've said in a similar ds post.
DS having 4-5 seconds of stun would be fine IF it had its offensive capabilities neutered.
Body blocking with basekit BT, then when the killer punishes you for not allowing him to *not tunnel* the killer gets hit with a 5s stun that is ridiculous.
And in the off chance you misstime your 10s count for basekit BT and give the survivor a hit speed boost, you can't even leave him as a slug because hes just going to b-line to a locker to force DS.
I think a change that would help on both ends of post-hooked Survivors would be removing their collision until they do a Conspicuous Action. This way Killers can't bodyblock them in basement, nor can Survivors bodyblock and protect for offensive DS usage. It just seems like the perfect medium (on paper, hopefully someone tells me what could be wrong with it and if no one can then maybe implement it).
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3547363#Comment_3547363
i mean yeah maybe against really bad soloq survivors. fake pallet do not work vs good players....
I mean even if 'bad' Survivors was as low odds as a coinflip (50-50), you would still only have ~6% of matches where you would get no value at all from them. (Personally I think 'bad' Survivors are more in the 80-90% range though personally).
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I've recommended this in the past. It could function on a token system that keeps the current single trap type limits. Snares get 5, and Pallets get 7. This works best with 15 tokens total, and 3 tokens per snare, 2 tokens per pallet. This way the same single use limit is the same, but you can mix and match.
@Devil_hit11 said:
why? i am sure everyone knows fake pallet are bad. why suggest them in base-kit? freddy needs a lot more changes and this change is not one of them.
Fake pallets are bad when that is all you have. A fake pallet on some god pallets like the RPD stairwell and at shack is invaluable. The threat of fake pallets is honestly stronger than the pallet itself.
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@Chocolate_Cosmos said:
You will get tbagged at exit gates if you do that. You think Survivors care you played nice? Nope, eat that Mr Killer! Haha noob ezi match.
But then you don't play fair and you play Seriously and some Survivors just give up on hooks and cry in chat how cruel you are and how bad of a person you are.
Then what should you do then?
I get t-bagged about 1 in 10 games when I play 'nice'/normal. When I play like a sweatlord, it bumps it to 9 out of 10 games. It is important to let the Survivors know in the chat things like "yeah I coulda tunneled out the Mikaela there but I felt bad for her, she seemed kinda clueless". This shows them it was an intentional act on your part that led to their 'victory'. They can't gloat if you gave them it a silver platter.
When people 'bribe' me with a cake, I 2 hook them and slug them after that for BP caps. Just the other night I slugged a death hook No Mither Adam 3 times because I knew he gave me a cake and I didn't want to kill him. We both knew I let him pick himself up, and I had to sacrifice my hook perk effects to give him a chance to still play. We both knew I effectively had 5 hooks on him, so at the end it meant nothing to me whether or not he would teabag at the exits.
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@DemonDaddy said:
Not to say there is none, but what control does killer have at this point that is not desired/called for by some survivors to be heavily regulated or limited?
Choice of target: some survivor suggest that killers not be capable of repeatedly targeting the weak link or even the most problematic survivor. As it stands, this choice is already being influenced by the endurance status granted by several perks for various situation and (however effective or not) base bt discouraging the killer.
How many killers would continue to play if forced to take what is currently the least beneficial option?
Choice of action: this one is already fairly limited in option and I mean in reference to killing survivors. What are our options; hooks, mori, and bleedout. In most cases the choice comes down to attempting hooks for a stage 3 payoff or counting on poor survivor performance and bad team altruism for bleedouts. The mori was already changed for survivor benefit and many would like to see something similar for bleedouts despite it being an altruism issue.
Is there really any choice between hooks or failed altruism which can be consitantly applied?
Choice of Target: After every unhook, even if someone were to take the claim to the extreme and say the unhooked Survivor is completely invincible, there are still 3 targets. One of those targets literally just deadzoned themselves to get the rescue, and by completing the rescue you can know they have 0 lingering anti-tunnel effects if you were afraid. So that yields a minimum of 1 viable target always available, but far more often 3 and 4.
Choice of Action: I think this complaint is a bit silly. Do Survivors have different (efficient) methods of powering the exit gates other than gens? (Yes, technically you can wait for your team to die, and the Killer to close hatch to power them, but that is almost always a loss.) So why should Killer have different (efficient) methods of killing the Survivors than downing them and hooking them? (Yes, technically you can bleed them out, but that takes 4 minutes total, and can be picked up relatively easily. Even then, if you camp the slug to bleed them out, the Survivors have plenty of time to pump gens.)
I don't turbo tunnel (except against map offerers [other than neutral maps like Swamp/Yamaoka, or favorable maps for my Killer]), and even then burning through 1 extra hit is nothing difficult except for the weakest of players. I don't bleed out, so I am already killing Survivors the most efficient method possible by hooking them. That means I would still play Killer, and I would be happy to have the incentive on Killer at times other than odd hours.
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Like Steak said, EMPs do nothing (other than maybe help because Survivors waste time leaving gens and burning them in a chase only to be retagged 2s later) to a good Singularity. I would also expand Singularity's bad maps to include Nostromo and RPD. Nostromo because there is too much low clutter, and not enough tall points to tag over the garbage, and RPD because the entire main hall seems to have butter on the walls, and you can only biopod the pillars. To be fair if I got a few more matches on RPD I would probably be fine, but I kept trying to tag walls and it just wouldn't stick anywhere. Its almost like how a good Blight knows the collision of Swamp and Borgo, but a newer one doesn't, although in Blights case that just means he gets a 3k at 1 gen instead of a 4k at 3-5.
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When he got his basekit buffs (before the nerf) a while back, I think he was reaching the 70% kill rates across MMRs. (Even now on Nightlight he is in the top half of kill rates, but I don't fully trust sweatlords self-reporting, especially when Oni/Plague/Spirit/Wesker/Blight are all below the midpoint.) While I do think he should have had a little bit more time to settle and people to get used to his new strength, it likely was still a bit overtuned.
Right now he is in a solid place, and unlike many other M1 Killers, he can easily win with green add-ons at the rarest. There was even the Hens showcase Wraith that showed you can even beat a pro-team when intentionally not tunneling with and without restrictions (if they don't know your plan going in). He did lose to the 2nd pro team immediately afterward, but they knew what he was doing going in, which isn't the soloq experience. Some of the perks were brought to specifically counter the strat he was using, which helped lead to his loss.
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@Batusalen said:
What do you think, extreme lag or try of subtle hacking? Because if you ask me, this explain all those times that makes you wonder "how the survivor get there so fast?". The rest of the chase was fine, as I didn't lost line of sight with him again.
Here are the perks he was using, and of course, when confronting him in the chat he only said he was using "MFT" and that "A 4.4 killer was accusing him of using speed hacks" even if he isn't using anything that could explain that speed boost there when he though I won't see it:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/7K6K9N94JEE6/lebillspeedhacking.jpg
We need to be able to rewatch the matches at all angles so we can identify this people more easily (apart from all the other advantages a replay mode gives, specially if it is feature packed). That, and better anticheats.
Anon mode with the globe symbol? Hundo percent. When it first came out I strictly called Anon 'cheater mode' (and dodged most of those lobbies on both sides), because near every Anon player was cheating just because how rampant cheating was at that time. I think it's fine now, but I still would want an option to opt-out of Anon matches.
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Honestly I think it'd be good as Exposed while Healthy, and only Broken while in the dying state. This way all the players can know why the David fell over in 1 hit when he falls down, but you can also avoid edge cases like prevent feeding Oni Blood or denying the team of Altruism points or heal perks. It also would ensure you don't get turbo cheesed by things like Nurse and Blight, but doesn't alter Trapper/Clown/Freddy gameplay. (Also the Broken condition doesn't change being picked up from the ground, so this is purely for information purposes without messing with Obsession swapping.)
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Someone posted a 'baby Surv' move of a chased Nea running with a chased injured Meg, and the Nea took the outside of shack forcing the Meg to go inside. The Meg dropped the pallet and the Nea stared from the window and I wanna say had the "hello darkness my old friend" audio blasting over it. The problem was preventing early game pressure by dropping shack when the Nea refused to even bodyblock and help both of them delay the first hook was the best move. Dropping Shack is more often memed to be a bad move than people are willing to admit, but its a fun meme, and it means you aren't taking the game too seriously. Just goofing around is the best way (imo) to enjoy the game.
So don't drop shack unless you are a sweatlord /s.
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@HugTechLover said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3546028#Comment_3546028
Y’all really need to stop using tournaments as your “proof” in arguments. Those players can make any killer loop OP.
While I agree comp isn't a good measure of the actual game, it is a decent enough place for arguing against people who make the claim the top end of the game is Survivor sided (without a clarifying statement like SWF>Killer>Soloq, that I would agree with). That is where the theoretical top of both sides are, (with different limitations more in the favor of Killer than against) so it should be a rough stomping grounds to walk in.
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@OneAutmLeaf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3545721#Comment_3545721
or they could just buff the M1 killers that dont have any mobility like freddy, Ghost face, Myers just bc they need to buff m1 killers dosent mean it needs to be ALL m1 killers. just the ones that have 0 mobility
Something that I think could be fine as a basekit feature (for all Killers) is a pacman styled map traversal (before endgame). If you walk to the edge of the map, you can exit from the outskirts on the opposite side (after a sound cue and decent delay). This would kick you out of power and remove undetectable to do so (so Wraith would have to recloak, Ghosty would have to restealth, and so on), so that way you couldn't cheese a hidden TR. Alternatively a simpler version would allow you to interact with an exit gate to travel to the other gate (with the same audio cues and delay). Rough draft diagram below.
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@McSpiceMeister said:
Why hasn't blast mine/wiretap been kill switched? This is an abusable exploit and will cause many false hacking accusations let alone advantages towards survivors. I have had this happen multiple times over the course of one evening.
I think the reason is because you need an advantage to be considered an exploit. Progressing the game stops the bug. Being worthless to your team keeps the bug going. The current killswitched item was reproducible and could be used anywhere while progressing the game. Blight could intentionally bug abuse, or it was the case he slid on objects like butter due to poor collision, so intentions are also a part. With this particular bug, you can't do it again until you pump half a gen, and touching a gen ends the bug. So its more like a personal pause/timeout bug than anything.
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Sadly I just got done with a full hour Hostage Merchant match. It seems people are afraid their abuse is going away and 'getting it while the getting is good'. The incentive finally swapped to Killer but I was just much too drained to play it, due to the hostage gamer. The next few weeks are going to be rough, and I wouldn't blame any of my teammates for DCing against her on TR/HUD reveal (even more than the 'normal' amount of SM DCs). I'm too stubborn, and consider a win against a Hostage Merchant the 60m timer or a single escape, so I'll go for that.
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Yeah, its super frustrating because the Yellow bottle is near always better than Purples, (with an exception for forcing a medium vault) but isn't nearly rewarded enough. At the very least increase the invigorated score event to 500 or 300 for the first 5 or 8 uses like Huntress and Doctor.
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@OneAutmLeaf said:
I think this change even tho it has good intentions is going to be very un-healthy for the the game, now hear me out before you say dumb killer main bc I play both roles, the main issues ppl have when it comes to killers are Camping/Slugging/Tunneling I think we can all agree to that, well 9/10 when ppl are complaining about said playstyle they arent using any of the perks that counter or punish said playstyle
dont want to be slugged
Unbreakable
No Mither
Soul Guard
Expo Boon
Dont want to be tunneled
Run breakdown and lead killer to hook dead zone
Borrowed Time
Off the record
Overcome
Decisive Strike
New Dead hard
Dont want to be Camped
Reassurance
Deliverance
You may see like 1 survivor have at least one of these perks but then they play really bad at loops and go back down, and to be honest off the record is a unfair perk, its not a anti tunnel perk, I could be cross map and they happen to run into me when im chasing someone else and they get away free bc OTR gave them a 60 second bubble.
why is it ppl refuse to run these perks and then complain about said playstyles instead of counter building?
all this change is going to do is make ppl tunnel way more often, this change is just going to make things worse not better, instead of punishing a killer for playing a certain way maybe look at why the killers feel the need to play that way to begin with could be
Gen rushing
Tbag Taunts
Easy pressure
Lure survivors in for easy injures.
I think a way more healthy option would be making more perks that actually insentivise killers to go awya from hook, aka more perks that function like pop or devour or bbq, perks that actually reward you for leaving a hook bc 9/10times you hook leave to go get another survivor or patrol gens and a gen or 2 pops AND the survivor gens unhooked, instead of taking away killer tools maybe look at the state of the game and that sometimes camping is all you can do bc you're getting demolished by a swf or gen jockeys....
I dont think a anti-camp basekit is going to be it, I think ppl actually running counter perks instead of meta builds would be the thing to do....
a good change would be remove MFT, and make it basekit for when a survivor gets unhooked, like if you get unhooked and are in chase you gain 3% haste until said chase ends, can only occur after being unhooked by someone else. that would be a good change and actually let ppl get distance etc
9/10 killers dont want to camp, but when you get 3 gens popping in the first 30 seconds and you just got your first down what else do you expect us to do devs? roam the map? then still get destroyed? camping is sometimes needed in order to turn a match back around.
and I can definetly assure you we dont want to have to run meta builds or 4 gen perks just to keep up, Id love to do stupid builds but when you play killer you cant really afford to, and ppl seem to forget this is a 1 v 4 game..... killer really dosent have a advantage outside of camping he gets abused very easily by good survivors who know how to loop and use a map right.
Perks to counter design flaws... brilliant /s. Do you want people to say the same for Killer? Just bring 4 slowdown, 3 intel, 2 anti-exhuastion, and a NOED in a pear tree. Have 10 perk slots dingus, garsh.
M1 framework likely needs some more 6.1 styled buffs, but since that is shared by Blight/Artist/Wesker/Plague/Oni, they likely can't be given too much.
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Similar to the other post I made in regards to another dodged nerf, at the very least they could remove the MfT Endurance. That doesn't require a huge time investment to do.
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99 all remaining gens, scout out gate locations, and pop them in the safest order possible. Alternatively pop them so it looks like you are heading towards gate A, then sneak over to gate B.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3545174#Comment_3545174
For the, nerf survivors at high level but not low level, its simple. Trickle down balance. There's a great video that explains the concept that i'll link you. The video is about Team Fortress 2. But the concept applies. Specifically, the concept about the B.A.S.E. Jumper item, which i think is very relevant to the discussion around DBD. The timestamp i linked is the relevant timestamp.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1p42KtZOCw&t=203s
Now, take a look at this clip from Ayrun, who is a comp survivor player:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvQXsdnVo9U&t=11m45s
He mentions in the video: "this is one of the worst pallets in the game" but look how he plays it. Look how he angles the camera, so he can see under the cars, making it impossible for the killer to do a mindgame. Look how he is able to abuse the new chemical trap perk, forcing the killer to not want to break the pallet, but also use the fact that you can cancel a drop by vaulting a pallet.
Or this one from hens:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rfKqY4bMmI&t=365s
Look how long it takes for that legion dealing with shack. This is before the pallet is dropped, and i'd argue that the legion played it pretty well most of the time. Remember, legion is an m1 killer. But shack is just so powerful in the hands of a skilled survivor.
This doesn't even factor in situations where you can have shack window spawn into a jungle gym window which is just a pure infinite at that point.
Now, what about low skill survivors, what are they doing with shack? They are doing this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLkZnrQNu8M
So, for example. If you nerfed killer shack to not be as powerful, you won't be hurting those low skill survivors, because they are doing the above, not doing the kind of stuff that hens and ayrun can do. And in many other examples you have say, unmindgameable loops. Why do unmindgameable pallets even exist? If you took those away and made them all mindgameable 50/50s, it would be a massive buff to killers, while not hurting low level players. Because in low MMR, killers aren't doing mindgames anyway.
So, nerfing these structures like jungle gym, shack (i think dead dog for example would be a good way to deal with shack) and/or making it so you can't spawn these ridiculous structures into each other (no more jungle gym, into cow tree, into shack). You won't be hurting low skill survivors by doing this. Doing so might even allow them to LOWER the amount of time it takes to complete gens.
On the flip side, what are some things that you can do to buff survivors in low skill, or nerf killers in low skill games, without hurting high level games? Well, i bring forth, the greatest balance decision that DBD has ever made. The change to Hex: Ruin in patch 3.5.0. Old ruin was this:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/OILSH2P8KU4D/image.png
Then they changed it, to this:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/18W3OIUNDGK9/image.png
This change, was the single greatest balance decision that BHVR has ever made in this game. Because it was perfect. The old ruin, was TERRIBLE for low skill games. Low skill survivors can barely hit regular skill checks as it is, and suddenly, you are forcing them to hit GREAT skill checks, or LOSE gen progress? So much so that people would often resort to "gen tapping" in order to avoid getting skill checks. (i know, i was one of them).
But, on the other side, in high skill games, this perk basically did nothing, but nullify the bonus from great skill checks. Because high skill survivors, are hitting great skill checks in their sleep. On top of that, high skill survivors, generally know where totems spawn. So old ruin typically lasted maybe 45-60 seconds before it was cleansed in high skill games. Meanwhile in low-skill games, survivors barely know what a totem even is.
So, how did they fix it? By changing it to the above. And what did that do? This HEAVILY nerfed it in low skill games, by doing a few things. First of all, now it wasn't tied to skill checks anymore, but tied to "not working on the gen". It also changed it to something that no longer "just passively worked" but that the killer needed to pressure multiple survivors, and pressure them well, in order to deal with. Pressuring multiple survivors, isn't something that low skill killers are going to be able to do.
However, in high level games, this was a MASSIVE buff. Because now, it actually hurt high skill players. And high skill killers could capitalize on it, by pressuring multiple survivors.
And even better, just a few short months after that, we got hex: undying, which made it even stronger in high skill games by making it something that actually had to be dealt with early on.
So in summary. There are definitely things that can be done,
Trickle-down / top level balance - I both agree and disagree at the same time here. The best players can show the abuse cases, and the intended use/effectiveness can be separate for lower hour matches. I'd liken the TF2 parachute to things like bugtech on Blight and medium strength pallets/windows when matchmaking backfills (lower skilled Killer than the Survivor). I think BHVR is currently going for massive amounts of medium to weak pallets, because they aren't re-usable, whereas fair medium strength windows are the centerpoint of Survivor main YT vids. When they win every 50-50 in that match, or can read the player to shift the odds in the player with more hour's favor, those are the matches showcased. Totally agree that Shack is nutty in the hands of a skilled Survivor (against bog standard M1s). I almost wonder if swapping the first locker and the doorway would be just enough distance to shift it to a fair medium strength. Personally I feel the Dead Dawg shack is too weak once the wall is broken. At the same time though, I feel as though stronger windows and pallets should still exist for variety. If every loop is the exact same strength, it feels too boring and samey. I can win on Borgo and Garden against most teams, but it isn't fun, and it largely is formulaic gameplay. (Use power for a 'free' hit, then Bloodlust a filler pallet for a down if you need a hook soon. Alternatively keep taking the risk of power for 'free' hit and bounce between Survivors, and hope they heal slower than you damage them.) Those 2 maps just feel like an attrition fight, and I can't say that is enjoyable on either side.
"One of the worst pallets in the game" - To be fair, I think that is more a macro statement there than a micro statement. In the macro of the match, it is on the edge, near the gates and in a mostly deadzoned corner, and if the Killer Bloodlusts/perfectly plays it, then the hit is guaranteed before swapping loops. Micro though, you explained how it isn't actually that weak, with Survivor being able to track Killer, and Killer unable to track Survivor (unless audible while injured), as well as it likely is large enough to function with checkpoints due to the mismatched visibility. Just like the Lery's corner pallets (at one point showcased I think by Hens?), I actually kind of like stronger pallets being in the corners instead closer to the center.
Ruin - This is a perfect example of a change that flattens a perk's effectiveness across skill levels. Honestly Chem Trap I think is 'hidden OP' right now, but only with haste. When I've used Chem Trap with Sprint Burst/when Healthy, I've noticed I often stay in chase when they kick the pallet. At the same time when I'm injured with MfT (and once when a rando brought Dark Theory), it was just enough speed to drop chase. I'd rather Chem Trap make chase linger for an extra 4s (the slow duration), just to flatten that gameplay experience. Even then, the strongest feature of Chem Trap is probably forcing the Killer to overcommit on a pallet to get them to stubbornly refuse to break it.
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The issue is they can nerf all the busted add-ons by simple numbers tweaks, the stuff clearly in their toolkit as seen with Legion's BFF 4->6%, Deathslinger's 2.75->2.6s reload, 1/2.5->1.5/3% add-ons, Huntress/Trickster 4->3s reloads, and seen in other patches.
Easy numbers tweaks (or feature removals) for the busted add-ons that still are strong enough. C33 Hindered or Pallet shred removed keep the other, Alch Ring - delete (Or Reduces Rush Fatigue time by .75s as a T3 Fatigue add-on), Adren Vial loses 10% speed, Blighted Crow and Rat are now a static 4/6% and not a stacking boost (use Adren Vial speed boost codebase). 5 quick and easy fixes that can be done while waiting for a better overhaul.
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Because it is humans dealing with humans online. When people see each other face to face, they are far less likely to be a total jerk, because they have the immediate negative feedback of the person's mood souring, as well as the social pressure of everyone else going 'hey maybe don't do that'. Online, the negative pressures against anti-social behavior don't exist for the most part, so people continue to do them over and over again.