mizark3
mizark3
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My common suggestion for Dance with Me (and Dark Theory) is to convert Medium Vaults into Fast Vaults, with a new vault SFX and a perk tooltip (for Deaf/HoH gamers). This allows for looping at odd angles, but has a reasonable limitation (timer, or snuffable boon).
I wouldn't be opposed to Grunts of Pain/Pools of Blood also being silenced, though it might not be enough still.
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@BlightedDolphin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3558408#Comment_3558408
The main reason I hate Plague is how unhooking an infected survivor infects you as well. It feels awful playing well and managing to avoid getting infected for so long, only to become infected because you were the only one who could save your teammate. It just seems wrong to be punished for making the correct play.
That and every Plague just pukes on gens at the start of the game so you are forced to either wait an absurd amount of time for it to clear or just take it and become infected. And then your teammate decides to cleanse and you’re the one who is hit with the red vomit.
It seems especially odd to me after Singularity came out, that you get uninfected on hook with his power, but not Plagues. Similarly a fully infected Wesker gets reset to half infection.
If she does get nerfed, getting uninfected when placed on hook seems like a fair place to start. Even if she re-pukes on them to re-infect them, at the very least they don't infect their rescuer.
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@Venusa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3558536#Comment_3558536
Idk... I respect your design and opinion but this still doesn't sound more than "let's gift killers 1 more kill each game" or a "pity kill"... which would end up dropping escape rates and bloat kill rates even more, forcing BHVR to come up with a new concept to not make that gap so wide. Also as I mentioned this would only hurt solo Q more since SWF can be more coordinated and have the luxury of communicating where NOED is located at etc.
1 more kill each game? At the bare minimum assuming the game was nothing but 50-50 4ks and 0ks, this would only make the half that are 0ks up to 1ks (assuming the Survivors only massively misplay). I guess I'm not understanding how this guarantees a kill when it doesn't even function if someone is on hook/on the floor, and disables/doesn't even spawn in the case of a Survivor death.
The aura portion of NOED would still apply to this basekit NOED, (once revealed as per the perk, but a fair argument could be made for basekit NOED always having the 24m aura range up in endgame, just as I mentioned in a separate reply how the Haste might not even be needed for basekit NOED) so even if someone goes down in endgame, you can cleanse then coordinate the unhook (even in soloq, although not all soloq teams are built the same to understand the person who takes the hit DOESN'T rescue afterwards).
In general though as Survivor, I've seen far more Survivors tank their escape rates to 0 or 1 total by attempting endgame saves, than increase it to a 4 out. This theoretically could increase escape rates because soloq teammates wouldn't be bothered to even attempt an endgame save, because finding the totem is too much work before the hook save.
I do get the 'pity kill' aspect though, and honestly, that kinda is what it is meant to be. A pity kill to shut up whiners to put it in a mean spirited way. I think of it more generously though, as a comeback mechanic for newer Killers to learn to overcome, and get kills without using it. Like I said in a different reply, this wouldn't affect my Killer matches in any meaningful capacity, as I most often win before all gens pop, or at the very least have a kill already under my belt by then.
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@Gandor said:
Absolutely horrible idea.
1, pentimento exists
2, you are padding kill rate for no good reason. If killer got screwed up by matchmaking, it's better he gets 4-outed so that his MMR quickly normalizes
3, this is definition of a clutch. Killer lost the game, but you want to hand him free kill regardless
4, kill rate is still above 50%. Why do you ask to buff killers? SoloQ needs help much more
- Fair with Pentimento, but I think in general you would only cleanse AFTER 3-4 gens are done in case a Killer turbo-tunnels, so this wouldn't hurt normal gameplay too much.
- I think the kill rates already 'assume' 1k minimum, that's why they target 60% (as endgame facecamps done correctly always will result in a kill). If the Kill is already gotten, basekit NOED won't spawn in endgame anyways as I suggest it. If BHVR's 60% isn't based around the concept of a rough 1k minimum, then I think this point is fair.
- I think you mean crutch, but yeah, I would want the dumb fun party game to have comeback mechanics for both sides in order to minimize the entirely negative experiences. I wouldn't consider this a free kill, because if the Survivors were dominating a Killer so harshly as to reach endgame without a death, they can easily have the time to cleanse 5 totems as well. If the Killer gets a kill, they don't get basekit NOED, nor does it function while anyone isn't standing. Did you not read the full rules for my proposed version? I laid them out quite cleanly at the end, and a preface in the opening paragraph mentioning the details were found below. Just as 6.1.0 basekitted T1 Brutal Strength and 2 stacks of STBFL, this would basekit a lesser version of proper full on perk NOED.
- I don't disagree that soloq needs help, but baby Killers need love too. I encourage soloq buffs as well, and buffs to the bottom 90% of perks for both sides, so I don't see this impeding that goal. This would hardly alter my (Killer) matches, as I typically win long before the gens pop, but baby Killers often express dissatisfaction with current gen timers, and I find nothing wrong with those. As far as kill rates are concerned, again, I believe BHVR balances around 60% assuming a 1k rough minimum. That is a fair position if you would want 50% to be the true fair balancing number, but my understanding is BHVR has it higher for other reasons.
@Venusa said:
Giving killers basekit NOED is like giving survivors basekit Hope.
But even then basekit Hope makes more sense. Because you're rewarding survivors for repairing all gens and surviving until end-game vs. rewarding killer for their lack of ability to sacrifice all survivors before all gens were done and just existing until end-game which doesn't require you to do anything but fail.
I'm not advocating for basekit Hope. I just know the reaction it would get to suggest such a thing and try to show a different point of view where even having basekit Hope (which is absurd) would be fairer and more logical than basekit NOED.
I don't quite agree, as I see endgame as Killers final chance to get kills. I see Hope as a earned and deserved personal 'free-win' perk, because it only works in endgame, setting you behind a perk during the vast majority of the game. This basekit NOED doesn't function if the Killer has a single kill, so I don't think you've read the post. In particular you said "... rewarding Killer for their lack of ability to sacrifice ALL (emphasis mine) Survivors before all gens were done...". Again, this proposed basekit NOED does not function if there is a single kill going into endgame.
@Emeal said:
I rather let NOED be a gamble for Survivors.
That's fair, I just wanted something to help weaker Killers who complain 90s is too short for gens, when I didn't even have a problem with 80s gens. This weaker basekit NOED is just meant to help the weakest of Killers who reach endgame without a kill, while not impacting what I consider 'normal' matches, which typically do have at least 1 kill before endgame.
@Halloulle said:
Once in a while I entertain the idea of NOED or something NOED-like during endgame. -- And as far as giving it thought I do think your base-description is probably the best I've seen so far / better than the ideas that came to mind. --- However, it has one (and a half) issues that usually make me abandon the idea when I give it a thought and which is why I'm ultimately not convinced basekit NOED (or something NOED-like) is the way to go to go.
The full issue I have is that every killer benefits from it - and the ones who need it the least benefit from it just as much, if not more, than those who need something to help them. That's a bit of a crux with basekit changes to killers: they're very different from each other so there very rarely is a one-size-fits-all kinda thing. (For survivor it's different: they all have the same basekit so whatever changes are made are just one size. There isn't even a fits all part.)
The half issue is that it does feel incredibly iffy as a basekit thing - more like a basekit UB (which has, as far as I can tell, been abandoned after that PTB) than basekit BT. That's not exactly tangible, so just half an issue.
Instead of making things basekit I think bringing killer to the same level is the much more promising way to achieve a dynamic endgame; by virtue of the match staying dynamic all the way to endgame. (just look at the Trapper buff; if you want to play chase Trapper you absolutely can now, since the right addons allow you to catch up to pretty much any survivor regardless of the perks they have - even someone with SB can be hit if you time correctly. You can carry two traps; that's really all the Killer-SB-On-Demand you need to down a surv and I'm near certain that if people continue to complain about Trapper being weak in the future, it's actually a skilissue and not just a meme phrase.)
Every Killer benefits - While this is true, I feel like it moreso helps players than Killers if you know what I mean. Also a Nurse would make far different use out of this than a Spirit for example, so I totally get Spirit doesn't need the same level of assistance the normal M1 variety would need. I feel like this mostly evens itself out though. Stronger Killers are far more likely to end up with a kill before endgame, so they rarely if ever would get to use it. Weaker Killers on the other hand would be less likely to end up with a kill before endgame, so they might get some use out of it. I'm of the opinion Spirit's hits that give the score event should count as a power hit (not a basic M1), and Blight and Artist should be 4.4 though, so some of what makes this proposal a good idea is the hope in the back of my mind that those changes would also come to fruition.
Iffy as basekit - Yeah the haste + exposed might be too much, and I'd be willing to drop the basekit version's haste and only give the Killer exposed as an effect. The idea being in endgame everyone is 1 hit from death until someone is 'secured'. I think the 45s basekit UB was a good idea, it was only the fact it was tied to the endgame Mori system that I found distasteful. The main reason being even the classical Oni slugging example allowed for downing all 4 Survs and hooking each sequentially against basekit UB without a self-pickup happening, so it was only BM that was punished (for the most part).
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Popular and powerful Killers are more likely to tunnel in general. Weaker players crutch on tunneling, and also tend to crutch on stronger Killers to make up for their lack of gamesense and skills. This is likely the only reason high power Killers have lower killrates, is bad players flock more to better Killers, and drag down the stats. That means only the dedicated mains are playing the weaker Killers, and drag up the stats.
Wesker's design also pushes him towards tunneling. When as Killer, you fail to find someone on a gen, or fail to intercept a would be rescuer, the only reasonable option left is to go back to hook to find someone (this is why stealth at a gen isn't always the most helpful move for the team when at 0 hooks). Well now the person is likely infected from the previous chase, so they have to get healed as well as sprayed. If Wesker returns before BOTH are done, who would I rather chase, Surv A: the injured and infected person, or the healthy and more than half infected person, or the injured and uninfected person, vs Surv B: the healthy AND uninfected person? If I want a short chase, I go for the infected/injured person, if I wanted the extra slowdown I'd go for the doubly healthy person. Most people want the short chase, so they tunnel. Not only that, if I still can't find anyone, when that person uses a spray, I get Killer Instinct, so I can find someone even when all others are hiding (or if I intended to tunnel in the first place).
I think the best options for Wesker are remove the tunnel encouraging features of his kit. First, infection cannot progress until a post-hook Survivor does a Conspicuous Action. Second, the Killer Instinct doesn't work on spray if the person didn't do a Conspicuous Action post-hook. If you infect and leave someone, KI still procs, and if someone infected gets unhooked and tapped a gen then sprays, KI still procs, but it wouldn't if they sprayed post-hook before anything else.
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@BlightedDolphin said:
Plague is probably the most unfun killer after Skull Merchant for me.
Exactly, I hate when playing Smash Bros. people disable maps and/or items and disable a minimum of 66% of the game, and Plague does that similar disabling 25% of the Survivor gameplay. Like, I get few enough options how to play as Survivor, don't hard delete a friggin' mechanic. Most Killers are additive on mechanics, such as Wesker sprays/Pig traps, or looping a different style against their power, but Plague is subtractive. I also have had the most 3 gen hostage adjacent Killers be Plagues more than any other Killer that isn't Hostage Merchant. I'm thankful that so few people play Plague in that pseudo-hostage style.
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Has anyone brought a mixed spread of Hatch at Shack/Hatch at Main? Does it actually split it evenly (or not even spawn at either)? Like say 2 Shack / 3 Main, is it a 40/60 split, or a 36/54/10 anywhere else?
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It evens out overall, just make sure to punish AFKs with your Lethal Pursuer when you play Killer, maybe even tunnel them out. They will learn to stop sabotaging their team if they stop having fun only in the matches they were AFK in the start. (That is assuming they have a pattern recognizing mind, and are capable of using it, theoretically a bot wouldn't.)
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It is ultra frustrating to think you have a good Trapper trap set up and then the Survivor barely squeezes by on the side, so you think "I can do that too", and then you step in the trap despite being clearly along the side. Even if it doesn't quite make logical sense, I think it would be sufficiently fair to have Surv/Killer hitboxes being the same size.
The value of running around something is in the threat of a pallet or window, and the excess power gained from hitbox differentials is arguably not needed. I do find it fun running 'rock infinites' against Huntresses and Plagues, but I wouldn't say it is a core draw of the game.
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@BlightedTrapper said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3557608#Comment_3557608
How is Inner Strength/Healing not useful? It can give you up to five free heals in a match, and ignores healing debuffs like Sloppy Butcher. It's also fairly time efficient if you don't waste too much time hunting totems.
If there's any healing perk that needs a buff, it's Pharmacy. Only works while injured, usually have to actively hunt for the chest, 6 second unlock and 24 second self-heal. That'd be like Inner Healing only activating if cleansing while injured, and you have to stay in the locker for twice as long.
I'd say the time efficiency is vastly overestimated. It takes 14s to cleanse, 8s to heal in the locker, but that isn't even counting the ~3s to enter a locker, the ~3s to exit a locker, and the travel time between totem/gen/locker. Even if you could TP from location to location, that still takes 28s total to heal 1 state. Compared to the basekit altruistic heal of 16/32s (32 total Survivor seconds or gen seconds, 16 real time seconds), that is somewhat lacking. Essentially it deserves a buff.
You also deny the team a potential boon location. Also if multiple people were to run the perk, you would have to share the heals available to the team. I'd say Resurgence and We'll Make it are vastly better, and the solo potential doesn't make up for Inner Healing's inefficiency. (I also think Self-Care should be buffed to 45%, and Pharmacy should be buffed to remove the heal speed inefficiency when using a perk granted medkit.)
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@WilliamSN said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3557021#Comment_3557021
Preface - Haste and endurance effects should be rare like they used to, MFT needs to be outright deleted/Reworked.
The video is enough of a proof of concept to understand that MFT does indeed provide a significant chase extension. an extra loop just because MFT goes BRR is not okay, if he dropped the pallet, it would have been another 20-30 seconds for the killer to catchup that the MFT user does not deserve.
Everytime people bring up stealthkillers and insta down killers up, I feel like every single time yall are treating survivors as if they have no eyes and the killer player is a 10k hour comp player. or just the simple fact that some maps actively ruin any stealth, like ormond, Borgo, GOJ, Eyerie of crows, etc etc.
Not to mention people trying to claim a certain killer "counters mft" if he brings XYZ Perks and addons just to deal with MFT.
Like, is it really fair to say Myers counters MFT if Im forced to bring Tombstone and inf T3 just to not deal with MFT? Obviously not, because the basic Myers experience has no anti-loop or catch up power.
A perk that mandates the other side to equip a full loadout centered around countering it is fundamentally unhealthy.
The video is insufficient proof as I laid out, because the Killer is doing something wrong. The full details are unknown, but they didn't enter chase, even over the low wall easily possible in the Hope example, so they intentionally or accidentally falsified information. If I came out with a video saying 'We'll Make It is OP, you heal in 4s' you would reasonably be suspicious. If after the fact, and I never mentioned it, that you found out the Survivor unhooked had Resurgence as well, then the validity of my claim would come into question, either because I told my friend to bring the perk (intentionally falsified), or they just like the perk and didn't realize they didn't swap builds before loading in (accidentally falsified).
Stealth and Instadown are separate, but sometimes overlap (like Ghosty). For this I am only considering unmarked Ghosty, or Pig. A key aspect to stealth is approaching from odd angles, or paths that you normally don't look at while working a gen. People, on average, look towards the center of the map, as it is the most likely approach vector. Successful stealth requires taking extra time to approach from the outside of the map (in general). The shorter chase/hit time is typically net positive compared to the response time to run away if approaching from the center. You only need 1 player to be unaware to be successful, as you can force hook trades in the worst of cases. Even if only half of players were unaware, you get to roll the dice 4 times, so that means if it was only as low as 50% (and I would say it is closer to the 75-90% range from extensive Ghosty gameplay), you would only have 6.25% of matches that are 'unwinnable' in terms of stealth alone. Bad maps are a roll of the dice as well, and you have to take the good with the bad.
Perks/add-ons to counter MfT aren't only countering MfT, unlike Calm Spirit being essentially only to counter Ultimate Weapon. Survivors can utilize the Exhaustion mechanic, so often they bring 1 or more Exhaustion perks. Bringing an anti-Exhaustion perk is typically countering or limiting 4 Survivor perks at once, if not more. The odds of multi-exhaustion is low though, just as the odds of no exhaustion are, so we'll average it out to 1 per Surv. 1 perk per Surv being countered by 1 perk for Killer is the perfect counter level, and if you can get it on an add-on, sometimes that's even better.
No Killer is required to bring an anti-Exhaustion perk in general. Perks are best used to accentuate strengths, or shore up weaknesses. This can be a Killer strength/weakness or a personal player strength/weakness. I typically don't have issues with MfT (or any Exhaustion perk for that matter), so I don't bring anti-Exhaustion perks. I do bring intel perks to build on my strengths, both of Killer, and personal playstyle. I get tilted if I run into god windows, so Bamboozle is a comfort pick for me. It mitigates the strength of those god windows, but more importantly, it shores up a personal weakness of getting annoyed and misplaying as a result. Do I recommend Bamboozle on every build for every player? No, most certainly not, but I am 'addicted' to using it to prevent those worst of experiences.
Most Killers should be able to get a hit with power, then at the longest down them with Bloodlust 2. I don't recommend Bloodlusting every circumstance, but I do recommend attempting mindgames at pallets instead of instakicking them. The player will improve and understand what mindgames will work and what won't, and will eventually get them down.
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The problem with the 'never cleanse' camp, is this assumes everyone is god loopers, and the Killer never camps. If even 1 person isn't good in chase, or the Killer lingers around hook just a tad bit too long, The match is lost for Survivor.
The problem with the 'always cleanse' camp, is the Plague can re-infect gens or the lingering effect lasts too long on it to reasonably not touch the gens again. Also if one person hasn't gone against red puke, they will die super quick in chase. (Pro-tip just circle small tall loops, some people joke about a 'rock infinite', but it is almost true.)
Overcleansing and stealthing is the strongest counter to Plague, but that basically only works with comms. In soloq, it is often people will overcleanse into giving the Plague a free facecamp of a hook state (or at a chokepoint, not necessarily actually facecamping due to the ranged attack). It also will be the case someone will overcleanse and the other people can't reach a safe/quiet area in time. The other issue is Plague is a particularly good 3 gen machine. If you find out from the start that it is Plague, and don't pop opposite side gens, you have already lost against any Plague with a modicum of skill.
That basically means she is 'uncounterable' in soloq, sorry, but that's mostly the truth. You are reliant on a baby Killer to win soloq.
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I think Sloppy helps when people WANT to heal. Oni and Spirit and stealth Killers are examples of when the Survivors absolutely WANT to heal. It does the opposite on Killers when they don't want to heal. I tried it on Myers at one point (or Gift of Pain as an alternative) and it makes no one heal instead. That kinda devalued the entire purpose of T3 to the power they were able to complete the gens too fast because they weren't 'wasting' time on healing, and since I didn't bring Monitor, I didn't have any stealth worth mentioning.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3557021#Comment_3557021
Doc basically needs faster Detonation and Range against MFT.
Also, yeah, your point on Stealth Killers is spot on.
I think Doc is so dated, that being permanently Exhausted in T3 (while also kicking Survivors back down to T2 off Hook) wouldn't be too far of a basekit change. Survivors can use their Exhaustion perk before they reach T3, or a Doc can tactically utilize the Blast to cap their T3 and start chase.
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I'd agree with 1, but not 2. Just set a cooldown on a snuffed totem for a minute and it would probably be fine.
Alternatively I'd like to see 'corrupted' totems, where if you boon over a hex (now reduced to normal 14s speed), both still remain, but if the Killer Snuffs it, they destroy the totem, and Survivor can still normally cleanse the totem to destroy the boon and hex as well. That seems like a fun risk/reward for both sides. Just give a loud noise for both sides when the opposite side breaks the totem this way.
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@WilliamSN said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3556235#Comment_3556235
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3556248#Comment_3556248
Yall mean videos like this?
https://youtu.be/EPX5K0r3oDU?si=DYkqzKoqhlgoJ3lH
you dont even need video evidence, basic math is enough to understand the perk is busted.
20-30% chase extension for holding shift W is ridiculous.
On a 30s chase you get 6 extra seconds from MFT , bringing it up to 36.
Times that by 3 and a single Survivor is buying 18 seconds at a minimum for free just because hes holding shift W.
This is first grade math, you dont need a PHD to do understand that 18 seconds for free per Survivor is extremely busted.
(This doesn't even take into account pallets and windows you made because of MFT causing a chase reset)
Preface - assuming we remove MfT's endurance (which I think should be done), should we remove or adjust the 3%? I'd be fine with a hard swap MfT and Dark Theory (DT going to 3% and MfT going to 2%.
My stance was video comparisons/loop differentials to change my opinion on the 3% portion, and this is a perfect poor example for a couple of reasons.
First, there should be Killer and Survivor visuals. During the Hope section (5:45) the Killer enters and exits chase, so the Killer is intentionally (or unknowingly without enough skill to recognize) sabotaging the integrity of the chase/video. Even if it were a tall structure where you can't look over, the Killer can still hide redstain or mindgame in other ways*. But the main issue here is the Killer (friend) shown in the video is intentionally or unknowingly sabotaging the integrity of the video, so we don't know if in the original comparison (0:45) he was running the tiles wide without Killer perspective also. He could have just asked the friend to run both as Survivor also, so that way if the video maker ran 3/5 pallet rotations without and with MfT as Survivor, then when as Killer, he ran 2/3 or 5/9 rotations, they could know someone is running tiles looser or tighter. At the same time, if it were the same, then we could see the side-by-side, even if it weren't edited in that way (open another window and play the Survivor and Killer sections simultaneously).
Secondly, there should be more than 1 tile showcased. This is 1 filler pallet on 1 map. At the very least show LT walls (which to be fair, have different lengths on different realms), Longwall Jungle Gyms, Shortwall Jungle Gyms, and Shack. I don't feel like that is too much to ask for. Similarly if someone were to come up saying "Bamboozle is OP, Delete pls" it should show which tiles are shut down as a result.
*I tried to find a video example but I couldn't for the life of me, so enjoy a mediocre paint drawing of the generic pallet tile in its place. (Which could be compared as a tall wall version of the loop showcased at the timestamps listed above.)
@WilliamSN said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3556637#Comment_3556637
Alright name the killers that can mitigate MFT.
Hard counters - Artist,Nurse,blight, wesker
soft counter but still impacted - slinger, huntress, trickster , hag
Am i missing anyone?
The other 25 are forced to chase normally and get 100% screwed by MFT , like myers, pig, ghostface , doctor , freddy , etc
Now, i conservatively said 20 previously because im aware there's certain killers with "close in " abilities like wraith and billy or pseudo anti loop like xeno and trapper, but they still have to chase normally in a tile and get screwed hard shift W chases.
I will say any Stealth Killer 'countered' by MfT is simply playing Stealth Killers wrong. Doc I will 100% agree with you however.
I love MfT because it means those foolish Survivors can't escape my Mark as Ghosty with Sprint Burst (or get instagibbed due to stealth while injured). I find similar reasons every time I play most Killers. "Thank goodness they didn't bring X perk" when I find out they have MfT, but mostly its SB.
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@TrustNoOne_X said:
Why can a survivor with a Reverse Bear Trap on can leave the trial? Shouldn't they die when leaving at the gate.
It needs to be active. So you need to place the trap before the final gen pop. If it is active, they need to disarm the head trap or escape through Hatch. If it happened while active, test it out again (and record) in a bot match or with a friend and if it also happens there, report it as a bug.
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I feel like many commenter's idea of Trapper is much different from BHVR's idea of Trapper. My understanding and playstyle of Trapper is to play him as an M1 Killer, and use Traps to set up surprises for later, or shut down God loops early. My favorite surprises are 2nd story drops. You set the trap so they think 'Oh I just vault down Gideons/Garden's Main/Toga's Middle vault(s) and I'll be safe" then WHAM, Trapped. If you plan on extensively and methodically trapping every loop or entrance, yeah you are going to have a bad time. It'd almost be like saving Huntress hatchets only to BM on hook, but still M1 hook traders. It's just silly and the 'wrong' way to play her. You can play her or Trapper the 'wrong' way, but don't complain when you lose matches using the kit in a strange way saying the Killer themself is weak.
That'd also be like using Nurse's Blinks only for mobility, but then you don't even try to get power hits. "Gosh guys, how do you play without Spasmodic Breath(4.6m/s for 60s after blink hit, disables blinks), it just feels like it should be basekit on her!" is what I hear when people say Trapper sack should be basekit. Keeping traps near every gen and loop makes every loop scary, starting with all of them makes 1 area dangerous, and you never can hit people with the surprise factor again.
Edit: I think Trapper and Knight's haste are good, because it makes up for time lost in using the power, but typically doesn't engage in chase haste. That way it helps them in a micro sense (starting chase sooner), and a macro sense (to have less dead time for dealing with gens/pallets/etc.).
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Opting out of ANON would provide far more value. Anon players tend to play in the most antisocial methods because they think they can get away with it, and they can. The percentage of Knockout bleedout Killers using Anon mode, and the percentage of cheating Survivors are far higher in Anon than the normal.
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In descending order of desired playtime, Ghosty, Clown, Myers, Legion, Huntress, Pig, Dredge (and more recently a lot of Singularity).
High playtime characters include Wesker and Blight, and Blight was specifically to learn (the lack of) counterplay. I played Blight so much I might even have more hours on him than Ghosty.
Some 'on a whim' fun characters include Deathslinger, Trapper, Wraith, Onion Ring, Bubba, Nemmy, Demo. Trapper will probably be promoted to the first list after I get 1.5x basekit Coffee Grounds.
The 'I don't want to play or impose the Survivors to play against' list includes Nurse, Hag, Oni, Plague, Twins, Pyramid Head, Pinhead, Spirit (hearing damage), Trickster, Artist. I either hate going against them to the extreme I don't even want to play them, or I don't like their mechanics cough Twins cough.
The rest are just kinda ehh with 2 special mentions, Knight and SM. Knight is decently fun to play, but miserable to play against, so I might sometimes throw a Knight or 2 game in if I don't care about my 'victims'. Skull Merchant I had fun with a full haste build, but too many people assume you are a Hostage Merchant so they insta DC, and I don't care to go against bots.
Even if a Killer is in a lesser category, sometimes I just feel like playing them and do so. Overall I think it is super important to play every Killer, even as a Surv main, at the very least enough to understand how to utilize the mechanics.
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I have gotten feedback, but there are a couple problems.
The first problem is it appears tells you the date action was taken, not the date the offense was committed. To be fair, this might be timezone differentials, but I'm not sure.
Secondly, it doesn't even remind you who the offender was (a Mikaela, a Feng, a Bubba, a Blight? who knows, cuz I don't). I understand if they don't want to reveal the name in the case of witch hunting, but I can't remember when and who I reported when I have more pressing issues in my life to focus on committing to memory.
@CountOfTheFog said:
Ok so I was just griefed by a teammate for my entire first hook state. He just kept spamming unhook and letting go.
I recorded it, reported him in-game, filled out a dbd support ticket with a YouTube link to the video.
Something should happen now, correct? I should definitely get an in-game notification that action was taken?
Outside of the automated emails verifying your evidentiary info was sent, they don't confirm specifics of bans. This can be a problem because there are grey zones of reports. For example, technically the 3 gen camping SM might be considered holding the game hostage (hence why I call her Hostage Merchant), but at the same time they could be considered attempting to 'win'. A similar issue exists with intentionally bleeding people out. Is a bleedout them attempting to win, or is it intentionally targeting to ruin gameplay experience? Even more so if there is only 1 Surv alive, they are under a hook, and hatch is closed. If I knew which reports were 'valid' and which needed more evidence, I could know whether to record more or stop reporting Hostage Merchants.
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@Ghoste said:
MFT nerf in exchange for Blight nerf. Deal?
I'd go as far to be happy with a full deletion of both.
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If we had the old 'goblin'-esque animations, definitely Frank West from Dead Rising (1 in particular). Also a suprise to be sure, but a welcome one would be a Star Wars crossover with anyone from Obi-Wan to Luke to Mara Jade to Ahsoka Tano to Han Solo to any vast array of those not strictly horror characters. (No Anakin, because we obviously would need Vader as Killer, although they could have him as both Killer and Survivor. It'd be hilarious to also have post-Sith minute lifespan remaining Anakin, but the visuals might be too close to the Killer version to allow for it.)
Also for custom games, allowing the Killer model to be used for Survivors would be hilarious and awesome. So many people have seen the Bubba Survivor memery, but now it could be done legit.
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Not a fan of bugs in general, whether that be the giga male vaults we had, the no drop stagger vaults, bug tech on Blight, Oni flick to go greater than 180 degrees, Wesker bugs (for and against), and more. I don't take issue with them if they are accepted by the devs and integrated into the game (like maybe a faceslide add-on for Wesker/Blight), but its kinda like phasing through a wall, clearly not intended and shouldn't be used. Then some people get used to abusing bugs like the anti-stagger vault, and whine when it actually is going to get fixed because they got used to their excessive and undeserved power.
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Give intel for basekit gen grouping. Basically a lesser version of Discordance after X number of good skill checks made while co-op'd. Intel is grossly undervalued by the lower skilled Killers, but once you have a base understanding of the game you can plan accordingly. A weak/medium skill Killer can go straight there, but a stronger Killer can weigh their options of the current chase, decide they don't care about the main gen getting popped 1st on Swamp, and know where 2/3 remaining Survivors will have been in the recent past to intercept a possible rescuer post-hook.
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The logic just seems unsound for the reasoning.
If I were to broadly paint a brush over the concept of the video, is that the game functions with innate assumptions. Otz's claim (taken to the logical conclusion) is that all perks that change these innate assumptions are bad. That means We'll Make It and Resurgence are bad (by that same logic) because it halves the heal timeframe (Botany as well, but to a lesser extent). That means Enduring/Spirit Fury are bad because you are supposed to reach another major structure loop given a stun, and with Enduring they can't. Similar with Spirit Fury but this de-gods god pallets.
If you go down the list, any perk worth anything changes the innate assumptions. UB allows slugs to pick themselves up, BBQ lets you know where distant Survivors are. All these innate assumptions fall apart with perk, and that is part of the charm of the game. Part of the game (at least to me) is to puzzle out the opposition's perks, and figure out how to outplay/counterplay those perks, while also doing the micro game of chase decisions and macro game of pallet drops and gen pops to outplay your opponent(s).
A second broad brush concept is that perks design should encourage spreading the pressure, not tunneling. Well the problem there is there is no (direct) benefit to spread pressure, and insufficient penalties for targeting someone out early. Since anti-tunnel has been gutted, there is no threat of penalties for tunneling. Since there is no Devour Hook styled mechanic to keep Killers away from hook or BBQ styled spread hook rewards, Killers don't care and hook whoever.
I would address anti-tunnel having teeth by buffing DS a separate way (Killer cannot use power for 5s per remaining gen, and allow for 2 uses), and including the current perk version as basekit. Also anti-tunnel endurance effects no longer cause Deep Wound. This means you could basekit BT into OTR into a Styptic or DH. This would be countered with removing collision on unhooked Survivors until they do a CA. That way a Killer can 'shoulder check' a potential bodyblocker, and if they phase through, the Killer can ignore them and know they are wasting their time.
To encourage spreading hooks, I would reveal the aura of the lowest hooked Survivor for 5s after a hook, and no forms of aura block work while you are the least hooked Survivor (other than Sole Survivor). In the case of ties, the furthest Survivor is revealed. One caveat though is this new basekit effect would never reveal the last Survivor standing, but other effects still could. The Killer also gets a Devour Hope styled speedboost delayed after hook, but this haste ends early on chase/power use/or getting within 12m of a Survivor. This way normal M1 Killers can crossmap safer, but already mobile Killers don't get anything on top of that.
A final idea is to give the 'Ruin treatment' to all gen slowdown perks (and we could honestly buff Ruin back up to 200%). By that I mean all regression/gen slowdown perks are less effective the fewer Survivors alive there are. This could be as harsh as a dead perk after a kill like current Ruin, or something like half as effective after a kill. Pop would regress 15% current after a kill instead of 30% current from Live, and Deadlock lasts 15s instead of live's 30s. This way you take gen slowdown perks because you want them to function while all 4 Survivors are alive, and it wouldn't be possible to giga-regress gens AND turbo-tunnel someone out at the same time. You could bring all lethality perks and not be perk punished by tunneling people out, but gen regression is reduced. You could also 8 hook safely while maintaining all regression perks, then have a final sprint of killing all the Survivors. I would recommend full effectiveness at 4 Survs, half at 3, and dead perk slots at 2 Survs, but if they wanted to especially encourage spreading the pressure the perk slots could be dead at 3 Survs. Making the perk slot dead at 3 would help further against the proxy camp to prevent all unhooks (or the anti-facecamp Kobe system), but I wouldn't recommend this until(/if) we have an epidemic of this new level of 'facecampers' to necessitate such a change.
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@ShErMaDeRmA said:
I remember a time where you'd often get false hits if it'd connect on your screen but not the survivors. What happened to that? It has been a Neverending barrage of getting hit through already dropped pallets, miles away from windows, etc. As killer i havent had a false hit since before the DH nerf. What happened to registration????
My understanding of validation is that it has 2 caveats.
The first, is the Survivor must pallet stun the Killer. No other method counts (since they removed DH for distance).
The second, is the Survivor must have hit the stun and sent that message to the server before the Killer's hit was sent to the server. Most pallet hits are either the Killer hitting slightly before the stun (fairly easy to do), or the Survivor being laggier than the Killer.
I'd argue a hybrid hit reg should apply to a ranged attack that the Killler 'hit through the wall' according to the server. Currently if the ranged attack hits on the Killer's screen, they get a normal hit. The hybrid system would instead Deep Wound the Survivor if injured, even without endurance, alongside a visual lag red bar + sound cue for feedback. This would down Deep Wounded Survivors regardless though. This way laggy Killers still get a 'lagvantage', but are forced to hit 1 extra time if they are lagging far too much that even the server takes issue with it. This also wouldn't too harshly punish a Killer placed on a wrong server outside of their control. Melee attacks can still be sketch, but not as egregious as ranged attack clearly hitting you through walls.
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They deserve nerfs, but certainly not by the same team who butchered Med-kits. They deserved nerfs too, but at least they had distinct identities beforehand. Now they are different flavors of 5% altruism. That isn't a rarity change, that's 1 medkit 4 times. Just a boring nerf that could have at least kept medkit identities intact.
Ideally they reduce Sabo charges from 6 to 4, and reduce all toolbox charge values by 2/3rds as well. That way Sabo is unaffected (other than how unplayably bad it currently is, with 2-3 hook sabos still often not being enough to prevent a hook on most maps), and repair rates are significantly reduced.
Also Hyperfocus just needs to not work with Toolboxes at all. It should be the autodidact of gens, so I don't know why they give those benefits stacking with Toolboxes.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3554329#Comment_3554329
The MMR is based on the win condition, not the other way around.
What I'm saying is if you win (Kill/Escape), you get points, and if you lose (Escape/Kill), you lose points. The devs have stated that MMR works effectively as 4 independent 1v1s. That means you can Win/Lose/Lose/Lose, but the points gained from the win can eclipse the points lost from the losses (in theory). The +20-6-6-6 yields a positive 2, despite including 3 losses. The points gained or lost is based on the difference of you and your opponent. It is more impressive to win against Federer in Tennis, and less punishing to lose against him. Similarly it is more embarrassing to lose against your 4 yr old niece/nephew when you both are actually trying to win. The points awarded/removed are based on this difference in MMR. The devs have separately said they adjust MMR gains/losses based on the amount of kills, and IIRC they said later deaths penalize the the Survivor's MMR less as the death is more 'expected' with fewer Survs.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3554243#Comment_3554243
The survivor win condition is to escape, not to open the exit gates. Even if we strictly look at the survivor team as a whole and completely disregard the individual component, open exit gates and a 2E is a survivor draw, not a survivor win.
Considering it's a survivor draw, it must also necessarily be a killer draw, because that's what "draw" means.
To be fair in one respect, the MMR point gain is what determines a 'win/loss' compared to the Kill/Escape. We assume each Survivor and Killer are tied in MMR for the formula in general. Hypothetically if a Bubba facecamps and only kills the god Survivor (+20 points), and 3 Survs escape (-6 points, -6 points, -6 points), the facecamping Bubba is net positive 2 points and 'won' MMR-wise. The inverse is also possible, with a 3k (+6 Killer points each) and the 4th getting gate (-20 Killer points) being net negative 2 points and a 'loss' MMR-wise. This is the only way I can see that person's point could be considered valid, is if they believe themself so superior to all of the Survivors that their MMR is lightyears above, making the escapes -(big number) and the kills +(small number) or some other disjointed mess. If that is the point they aren't saying, but are meaning, then they are technically correct.
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@Hanuka5 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3553885#Comment_3553885
But i was not only talking about the leadup that changes to the lunge, i was talking on the distance when you make the lunge.
Let me qoute myself:
Because as killer you learned the distances. At what distance you can hit, at what distance you can Lunge attack. With MFT all what you learned is wrong. You will miss it.The time you need to keep up changes ofc too. How i said some plays for example advanced plays with doctor are not possible anymore since they dont work if the survivor walks 3% faster anymore. And with 4,4 killers the "loop advantage" is even higher. Since survivors can walk loops tighter you see a difference especally in small loops. But how i said, my main problem is that this leared point when to hit changed.
As far as Coup is concerned, what part of it is what you dislike?
I dislike that the survivor doesnt know if you have it or not and it changed what you learnd before. So "I will make the window" is starting to getting wrong and you should have tried to reach the next corner instead. And its not that you did something wrong, the killer just used a perk (that you dindt knew he had, and that you coulndt see before).
I dislike the whole idea of the perk.
then the Survivors can play around the Killer theoretically always having it.
I disagree witht his, because for example Coup makes L-T walls unsafe, so if you play like "he allways has it" most of the structures are useless and you shoulndt go to them.
the additional flaw of MfT users too often becoming overconfident while injured, makes them not heal even when it would be beneficial
Alot of the survivors are playing the "no-healing" playstyle, since it can be benefital to just finish a gen instead of healing. Alot of SWF teams dont heal up anymore unless its needed. Because why heal up when the killer is on the other side?
There are serveral talents that boost your character while injured and MFT fits perfect in that kind of playstyle. We have alot of killers that can injure you easily but its way harder to down you (for example legion).
For some other killers, the "follow up" hit is often easier as the initial hit (for example wesker)
"injured builds" are also very good against killer who use the exposed status.
Injured Builds especially against exposed Killers - Yeah, for the longest time I was finding it difficult to win with Myers, but I had to think outside of the box. I finally started running Thana/Plaything/Penti/(Personal choice). It requires 2 injuring hits relatively early to make them realize you aren't a Tombstone Myers, and you just chase normally and stalk when they drop pallets. Once you get a hook, you fall into a perfect equilibrium when they want to heal to prevent Thana, want to cleanse Plaything to prevent a T3 stealthy instadown, and don't have enough time to cleanse Penti after that. It took a large playstyle shift from how I used to play Myers, but it works much better in the current evironment. I did have to lose 5-10 matches to learn that playstyle shift though, so don't think this build can be ran successfully overnight.
@scorpia said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3553234#Comment_3553234
It’s not about being uncounterable, it’s about messing with our understanding of how this game functions. When a survivor is a certain distance away, I would always get a hit, except now I don’t if they are running MFT so now I swing and miss when I should have gotten a down. You can’t have 7 years of the game working one way and then suddenly add a perk that completely throws our muscle memory in the trash. They need to make it a regular exhaustion perk.
I both understand and don't understand this complaint. Nearly all perks adjust how the game functions. If I return to a hook, I estimate 16/20s is how long it would take to heal (mangled being the 2nd number), but with Resurgence or We'll Make It, that drops to 8/10s, and both down to 4/5s. Similarly with Enduring for how long a stun lasts. At certain filler loops (like the new farm reworks), you only get somewhere else if the Killer is stunned the full duration. Also in a similar realm with Spirit Fury destroying the pallet altogether. All of those game sense markers are adjusted by perks, so this is nothing new. Heck, Myers T2 essentially gets a basekit Bamboozle vault speed boost, and T3 gets a basekit Superior Anatomy vault speed boost.
MfT specifically gives .12m/s over the normal 4.0m/s, and the lunge lasts .8s, which means MfT saves .096m at the lunge to the vault specifically. That is ~.02s of movement at 4.6. That is like adding 20 ping to the vault point in favor of Surv. Coup as specifically the vault's mirror adds .4s at 6.9m/s, or 2.3m/s extra for that early lunge timeframe, for .92m at the lunge portion specifically. Also if the loop rotation is roughly less than 8s, Coup yields more distance than MfT. That specific timing is roughly how long it takes to use the efficient window vaults at shack as Survivor (from non pallet doorway to window back to non pallet doorway), so any loop shorter than Shack favors Killer, and any longer loop favors Survivor (in a Coup vs MfT fight). To be fair there is a limit of Coups, and if you hate both sides of this coin that is a valid opinion even if I don't share it, as at least you are logically consistent in your opinion.
-- Separate from above replies --
One thing I will say is it would probably be fine if MfT gave the 3% haste and applied .1s of exhaustion when you start running while not exhausted for the duration of the run. That way it doesn't stack with any other exhaustion perk. You need to run to use DH, so you can't stack both with this change. This also is short enough to reset the exhaustion on vaults, while still keeping you exhausted while running to prevent other stacking effects like Iron Will. This would probably be a pain to code, but would functionally fix most stacking complaints that I do find legitimate. (As a reminder to anyone who hasn't read my other posts, I also advocate the removal of Endurance from MfT onto a weak or thematic perk instead, maybe Solidarity?)
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@HarlockTaliesin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3553798#Comment_3553798
Unfortunately this isn't a real-world scenario. You lose Bloodlust as soon as you break a pallet. Although not all pallets have to be broken, there's a good number that does. Especially if you don't want it to bite you in the @ss later (ex: Gideon's).
For this to work, BHVR would have to remove killers losing Bloodlust from pallet breaks. Even then, places like the main house in GoJ exists, where you can lose Bloodlust constantly with a survivor just using MFT, not to mention that MFT is often used with Resilience to make the vaults quicker.
@dbdthegame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3553798#Comment_3553798
Unfortunately, BL tends to reset when you use your power or when you break a pallet. So it doesn't matter how high you can get it, all it takes is one safe pallet drop and you're forced to do it all over again.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3553799#Comment_3553799
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3553802#Comment_3553802
The perk's performance in a micro setting is directly correlated to its performance in a macro setting. There's a reason we use the words "micro" and "macro", because the plural of micro is macro. If MFT acts as a chase extender for every survivor running it by, say, 30s (micro), it buys every single survivor on the map 3x30s to do gens/reset/do whatever, unbothered (macro). Things in DBD don't happen in a vacuum. A 1v1 tests the perk's performance in a micro, and the killer choice/map choice is to set a standard for a fairly killer sided map, and a pure M1 killer. Or, we can also bring up the math that's been done numerous times before showing how egregious of a chase extender MFT is.
It ultimately doesn't matter if you lose Bloodlust on power use, because if you used power it should be because you are hitting them or setting up a followup hit as a result of the power usage. (Also technically Demo is a fringe case where you can full charge Shreds for Mobility for an average 5.0m/s, but it costs your map awareness and you need a straight line along with very good timing. Poor timing just drops the average below 5.0m/s)
As far as pallets, you have to kick less than you'd expect. The Clown manifesto is a great resource to discover which pallets Clown can avoid kicking, or even basic M1 Killer avoid kick. Learning the theory, allows for understanding what conceptual pallets are less safe than one would think at a first glance, especially with a level or 2 of Bloodlust in the equation as well. Even some Gideon top floor edge map pallets that appear to be god pallets, can force a Survivor to double vault into a hit on a normal M1 Killer when played perfectly (with higher levels of Bloodlust making up for Killer imperfections in execution). Also, a Yellow Bottle is basically an on demand Bloodlust 2, so even just playing a Yellow bottle only Clown helps practice in that regard for all Killers.
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@CrimsonMothKing said:
Devour Hope already does something similar. While it could be an 'incentive' to not camp, if a Killer wants to tunnel/camp, that's exactly what they will do.
I think basekitting some effects can be done quite well. Trapper is about to receive a 1.5x Coffee Grounds basekit, and Survivors got a lesser BT basekit alongside Killers getting a lesser STBFL and Brutal basekit. Basekitting a lesser DS and a lesser Devour styled speed boost would likely be good for the game.
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@Hanuka5 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3553699#Comment_3553699
It seems like you dont play killer alot. It doesnt make it difference if you have 4.4 or 4.6 killer the attack and Lunge movespeed stays the same at 6.9, so the distance in what you can press your mousebutton to hit the survivor stays the same.
Clowns bottels are clearly visible, same as the other exhaust talents and not allways active. Yes i dislike "Coup De Grace" as survivor for the same exact reason.
Personally I still think Sprint Burst is the best Exhaustion perk [...]MfT requires a bit of looping knowledge
I disagree you dont need "a bit of looping knowledge", since you get 3% movespeed in every situation. Its way easier to wraste a Sprintbrust as a MFT. Because... well there is no way to wraste MFT.
I'm not sure what I said would make you think I don't play Killer when that's the bulk of my playtime, but the 4.4 chase is much different than the 4.6 chase during the entire leadup before the lunge (the majority of the chase, and also often because 4.4s rely on power to injure/down people rather than solely M1). You get a feel for how many more rotations people can get based on the speed differential and how close or loose you and they each loop the structure. When I played Huntress quite a bit, there are times where you run out of ammo or want to preserve a final hatchet, and you think you can get the M1, but you need to loop longer to get that M1 hit instead.
As far as Coup is concerned, what part of it is what you dislike? The 'you don't know how many tokens remain' aspect, or the initial surprise. I feel as though it fits quite well alongside Hexes and Spirit Fury. The Killer gets value with it maybe a couple of times, then the Survivors can play around the Killer theoretically always having it. (Hexes though have the additional counterplay that Survivors can cleanse them.) If you are also against Spirit Fury, then completely fair, you do you. If I had hard cash money on a match I'd probably agree with you, but the lack of knowing (your opponents perks/add-ons) and finding out is part of the appeal of the game to me.
With the Sprint Burst / Made for This final part, my point was in comparison to one another. If 2 equal skill Survivors each have the other perk, I've only seen a weird middle ground of skill where MfT was better. When I get autofilled into babies, SB is better for them. When I get the sweat squad on comms, SB is better for them. When I get the Survivors that still walk with SB ready, but not all time like babies, and never 99 SB, those skill level Survs are better off with MfT. Even then though, the additional flaw of MfT users too often becoming overconfident while injured, makes them not heal even when it would be beneficial, so that is a very slim margin where MfT is better. Most Survivors the game sends my way are weaker than the sweat SWF on comms, (specifically sweat SWF, not normal SWF, normal SWFs are weaker than strong independent Survivors as they often throw for altruism) but stronger than the margin where MfT is better. So yes, you don't need any skill to get value from MfT, I just feel at the vast majority of skill levels (at least that I deal with) Survivors are better off with SB. Sorry if I wasn't clear on that earlier.
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@Brimp said:
I mean yeah its the natural order of things. Insta heals getting gutted? Every one started running syringes, hatch changing to only work when 1 person is alive? Every one brings a key. BNP is getting an adjustment to not just be an instant 25%? Toolboxes with BNPs every game. Medkits getting their rightful nerf? Every one brings their strongest medkits. Mori getting nerfed? Every one brings moris.
@Akumakaji said:
In this case I can't really fathom why, though.
Instaheals and ganging up with 4vBNP on a gen are something ridiculous that falls into the "it was fun while it lasted, but it's good that it's gone" category, but facecamping isn't really an engaging playstyle.
The few times I pulled it of was more or less an act of desperation and always quite stressful for me. I vividly remember a Badham preschool match were all survivors played stealthy AF and they booked if as soon as they got a whiff of my terror radius. When I finally caught one of the pesky stealthers I camped then out, hook grapped one or the would-be rescuers, slugged them and somehow turned it around.
The survivors were very salty at that and accused me of whatnot "2k hours and you play like that. Harder uninstall the game", but really, in this scenario I would not have left that hook and gone roaming to be rewarded with 2 hooks, 4E and tbags at the gate with "ggez".
With the anti camping update there would have been actually nothing I could have done in that scenario, which is a bummer, but we will see if killer get any kind of compensation - not as a quit pro quo, but because killrates will surely suffer, once this hits live.
At other times I have camped mean or pesky survivors out of spite, I'll admit to that, and if they can now unhook themselves in my face, so be it. But overall I don't feel any urge to get as much camping done before it's gone. I am more concerned about the ways it will get abused and how much rougher matches will get, when survivors unhook themselves, because I know that someone is around, but no chase started and the bar is filling up mercilessly
That's also what I don't get. The items and offerings took BP to earn, and you want to use a limited use consumable at its best. Camping isn't a consumable though, so only a dedicated Bubba memelord I can understand.
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Zarina is my female main, and Felix my male main.
Zarina has neat outfits, but her best draw is probably her lore. A dedicated pursuit of truth against corruption just hits all my right buttons to favorite a character.
Felix also has neat outfits (Fabio skin in particular comes to mind), and neat lore as well (social awkwardness and a love to explore his own imagination).
Some honorable mentions include Jeff, Meg, Rebecca, Ash, and Ada. (I feel as though Leon and Claire got character assassinated in Remake2, so I'm not a fan of those versions in DBD by proxy.)
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@dbdthegame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3553786#Comment_3553786
It's objectively untrue that SB is superior though. SB is only superior in the sense that it gives you a one time get-out-of-jail-free card when you pop it (assuming you're not against a killer that can actually hit you through it). MFT's value will overshadow SB's in hard chase time as soon as the chase goes over ~30 seconds.
That's also what I don't get. If the chase lasted 30s, you are already 5s deep into BL 2. BL1 against MfT already still has a .68m/s or a .08m/s advantage over normal for 10s, and BL2 has .88m/s, nearly 50% more than the base .6m/s for that minimum 5s. I've heard various breakpoints of MfT vs SB, and they nearly always seem to put SB in a more favorable light. They also tend to discount SB's other uses, although to be fair, I discount the Endurance in the MfT discussion because I advocate its removal from MfT.
I understand MfT gives more leeway for mistakes, but those predominantly exist in places where mistakes matter by a sufficiently small margin that it already is 'M1 uncounterable if the Survivor plays it perfectly' like shack. It doesn't add 'new' shacks essentially, just the existing ones are more painful. I already have it in my mind how I plan on countering them, and am ready to 'bruteforce' the 3 window vaults and/or pallets and/or Bloodlust if need be.
I basically view MfT and Resilience in the same 'anti-lag' realm. Essentially if the Killer and Survivor had 0 ping each, would the vaults/hits still work? Most times, the MfT/Resilience time adjustments are only enough to negate Killer's lagvantage. Negating an advantage that never should have existed doesn't seem like an issue to me (in most cases).
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@dbdthegame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3553754#Comment_3553754
I've seen you in enough MFT discussions at this point that I'm sure you know what people's issues are with MFT. The vitriol directed at it specifically is it provides far too much value, far too consistently, and has little to no counter if it's in play and you're playing a killer without a chase power. It's a perk that overshadows every other chase perk in the game, and makes for a very stale and bland meta on both sides. Every game I load in, I know I'm gonna see at least 3x MFT, with maybe 2x hope, with two DH, and maybe one FTP BU in the mix. Every game, I'm inclinde to play Blight to deal with it all.
I hard disagree with it overshadowing every other chase perk, and am a fervent Sprint Burst (word for I think its the most powerful, but not overpowered, my vocab is failing me atm). As long as they remain mutually exclusive, MfT is a gift in the face of SB. That is where my confusions lie. It would be like someone saying "I hate going against Deathslinger, he is just too OP, nothing else compares to him" while Nurse/Blight/Spirit still exist or "Dredge is too stealthy, there isn't a Killer more stealthy than him" when Ghosty/Pig/Myers(especially with Monitor or other perk support) exist. As an alternative it would be like complaining about Survivors healing too fast off hook with Botany, while ignoring We'll Make It. That's what I'm not getting. I see SB as strictly superior. It's like complaining a 500ml bottle of soda has too much sugar, then you down a 2-liter.
To be fair, you can hate more than 1 thing and for different reasons, and if they despise Sprint Burst in that same Nurse/Blight/Spirit realm as a "its always BS, and most people don't need to qualify their opinion", then I can understand. That's the problem though, I'm not seeing 'nerf SB' posts at the same frequency of 'nerf Nurse/Blight/Spirit/MfT' posts. I honestly don't recall seeing a 'nerf SB' thread (maybe even post) within a month even.
My matches are colossally more difficult against Sprint Burst/Adrenaline than against MfT/Hope. Maybe it's just my playstyle, but behind Ghosty, I probably have the most (normal M1*) matches on Clown and Legion, and they aren't exactly stealthy. MfT users save me from SB users, and I thank them for it. The Ghosty pallet stun sigh is the perfect example of my response to SB.
(*At one point I hard dedicated playing Blight to find counterplay, and I only found gaps in my knowledge or misplays on my part. When I learned how to bounce at new loops, counterplay didn't exist, so it was on the Blight player to be bad at Blight for counterplay to exist, and I don't find that enjoyable on either end, as my wins mean nothing, and losses mean I sucked. I need a chance at failure beyond my control for the brain chemicals to activate on win, otherwise I'd just play singleplayer games with cheat engine and god mode for my 'fix'.)
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3553699#Comment_3553699
Yeah but the strict fact of "oh you injured them now they're rewarded with a 3% speed boost" is such a stupid idea.
I addressed that in the same post within the reply below the reply to you, that's a huge list of (Survivor) perks that give a reward/can be used when a Survivor gets injured. I'm just not sure why MfT gets the level of vitriol outside of being among the strongest of perks (that people also have explained, is simultaneously garbage against the strongest of Killers). It's almost like a simple Rock Paper Scissors, with a 4th Bomb option. Survivor brings MfT, wins against a weak Clown, then loses against a weak Blight, then brings SB and wins against both weak Killers until they go against strong Killers. Sprint Burst is the 'Bomb' option.
Heck, even Overcome seems like it would receive far more flak for doing nearly that same thing as MfT although frontloaded instead, or Lucky Break for doing an adjacent thing.
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@egg_ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3553234#Comment_3553234
Guy posts a screenshot of random public match where he killed 4 random people while they were using mft. It's settled guys, mft is fine, sorry
Guy ignores the 3 sentences also included above the picture to include context of only 1 slowdown perk and the lack of tunneling. (And the replies to everyone else replying to him, but that has a minute difference on the forum, so it was likely not seen to be fair.)
I understand the point, 1 example doesn't equate to every match, but I have consistently won against MfT users, and I found the minimal slowdown match a particularly funny example, as well as a recent example.
I had a Freddy match with nearly the same results, and this was when OC was bugged to not work if Survivors gen tap, and my 2 totems got cleansed near instantly.
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@Hanuka5 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3553234#Comment_3553234
The Speed is totaly stupid. Because as killer you learned the distances. At what distance you can hit, at what distance you can Lunge attack. With MFT all what you learned is wrong. You will miss it.
And its way harder to see as an DH or any other.
Since survivors have a smaller hitboxes some loops were before allready very tight but with MFT you cannot do em anymore (for example some doctor and clown plays).
The 2nd problem is if you pick HOPE you reach 4,4 m/s what means that a slow killer cannot catch you anymore
I think you misunderstand what "beeing to strong" means. It doesnt mean that you instawin as soon as you pick it. It just means that its stronger than other perks in comparison. Often without a downside. In case of MFT, its just allways good. Like in 100% of the situations.
Its nothing you can fail like deadhard or anything like that. AND it works together with other exhaust perks and makes that even stronger.
And on top of everything i wrote you get endurace.
If you are a variety Killer then you have learned .4m/s difference with Huntress/Spirit/etc. as well as the .6m/s difference. MfT yields a .48m/s difference, or essentially the Spirit speed with more wiggle room. 1 level of Bloodlust does essentially the same thing with a .68m/s difference, or essentially normal M1 with wiggle room.
There are also difference learning opportunities in game with Dead Dawg Shack vs normal Shack, the length differences of LT walls across different realms (which are different, check out Mr TatorHead's looping guides where he breaks that down, good as Survivor and Killer to know what you should do, or how to counter it, also he uses no perks as Killer and Surv, and pejoratively calls 'Made for This' 'Paid for This' as a joke, I thought that was funny), Clown Yellow Speed/Purple Speed/Both Speed, Coup De Grace extra distance. Should we delete 4.4 Killers because you have to learn a different speed? Even then, 4.4 Killers have a power to secure hits. Huntress rounds the corner and clips the ankle with a Hatchet, Spirit phases, Deathslinger clips the top of the pill hitbox to negate most loops. All of which is still possible against MfT.
Made for This is an exhaustion perk, which means it is mutually exclusive with things like Sprint Burst and Lithe, however it can be stacked with DH/BL. I can only agree with it being a problem when stacked, as that does give essentially 1 chase with 2 Exhaustion perks, then another with none.
Also I did say in the original post as what, the second line, the endurance should be swapped onto another perk, so I already accounted for that in the second line and it appears you didn't read that. I wrote 3 sentences and you ignored 1/3rd that.
Personally I still think Sprint Burst is the best Exhaustion perk because weaker and stronger players can make great use of it, with all weaker players needing to do is reach a pallet. MfT requires a bit of looping knowledge, which weaker players don't have. Then stronger players will be able to 99 SBs effectively, and use it mid loop on a mindgame to drop Bloodlust or swap to another tile, but MfT users still need to force the pallet kick to drop BL.
@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3553234#Comment_3553234
Oh, yes. How could I forget that game sense allows Trapper to move at 120%? Silly me.
Seriously, can we stop using the term "game sense" as a straw man for absolutely everything? A survivor that moves 3% faster by default (which means 20% more time for the killer to catch up) cannot be countered by game sense alone. If a killer drops chase because their game sense tells them to, does that improve their situation in any way? The answer is no. A killer doesn't have time to run around and drop every other chase. Much less when you consider that more than 1 survivor will have MFT and that a killer cannot build up pressure without getting a down.
The worst thing about MFT is that it's completely useless against the strongest killers in this game but way too strong against the weaker killers. Nurse, Blight, Spirit, Artist, Plague and Wesker don't care too much about that. Compare that to M1 killers. Loops aren't designed for killers or survivors to suddenly move faster. That is why bloodlust is such a big deal.
I have won a game as perkless pallet Freddy against a SWF with 2 P100s on Garden of Misery too. They played terrible and I won because of it. The same thing wouldn't have happened, if they hadn't played this bad. MFT on a bad survivor is useless. But MFT on a decent or even a good survivor is horrible to play against.
That's fair, you didn't see the gameplay, but I only got 2 uses of Game Afoot for the speed. They were trying to greed pallets and force me to whip at pallet points, so I nearly never got the haste (because I needed them to stun me with Nemesis perk to swap Obs to them before breaking the pallet with whip for the speed and downing them with the exposed Hubris, I didn't get a single Hubris down sadly). (Also to meme a bit on you, Trapper will be running 123.625 for 5s post trap, so HAH. TRAPPER REIGNS SUPREME!!!)
How is game sense a strawman? I didn't set that up as my opposition's position so I could knock it down. I introduced it as a separate concept that can be utilized to bypass the alleged problem. It would be more accurate to claim my stance is "skill dif git gud". I use the term 'game sense' as a substitute for 'macro skill'. Macro being when to take or drop chase, which gen to defend and let pop, knowing when and where Survivors will attempt map movements, such as attempting a hook rescue, and from what direction. In that particular Nemmy game I had the game sense to recognize: "since gens 1 and 2 popped at the north and west of the map, they will focus their attention on the south and east of the map, so I should corral the current/next chase in that direction in case the 4th Surv is working a gen there. Ahh there was a Survivor on the southeast gen, so now the threat of this chase prevents them from working that gen while I am still chasing the original Survivor. Now the south east is largely free of pallets (being Nemesis), they will have a significantly more difficult match to pump gens in a deadzone."
@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3553234#Comment_3553234
The speed isn't uncounterable and I haven't seen anyone claim it is. The problem is getting a free 3% speed boost which people calculated extends chases by an extra 20%. And it just allows for more greedy playstyles with no downside other than "you can't greed if you don't have the perk" like a certain other perk that went under the radar for years. Like sure its not as bad as old dh but it still nearly invalidates all mind game attempts because of the faster speed.
I mean I can understand it as a nuisance factor. I just feel SB is near strictly superior in all skill brackets. As long as those 2 are mutually exclusive I'm fine with MfT.
This game in general is filled with major nuisance factors like too juicy of healing when you didn't bring Sloppy, or bringing Blast Mine when the Killer doesn't kick gens, or bringing a heal build and rolling into plague, or bringing a ultimate rescue build and being facecamped from the onset, or getting Devour Hope cleansed 15-20s into the match when you forgot to bring the Mori offering for your daily, or people DCing on the first Doctor Blast (like really, Doctor is too much for you?!?!?!). I just think MfT isn't as annoying as the other nuisance factors.
@MB666 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3553234#Comment_3553234
imagine saying that and just showing a nemesis game range killer , easy to force a pre-drop while losing almost no distance against MFT if played correctly and survivor were using "flashlights" , now try to do the same with trapper / legion / oni and pig , if a survivor wants to be annoying they can just pre-drop and hold W, there is something you can do there? NO , you just are forced to break any safe pallet they dropped and lose a lot of distance for free after that , the 3% also works with DH and Styptic mah guy , thats BS as hell am sorry is just people being bad with the perk rather than the perk being "balanced" as some people say because a lot of those players running the perk use it as a training tool for looping rather than abusing the extra distance it gives that can be enough to extend a chase for even longer without effort other than "you get hit , get rewarded , now you are harder to catch".
MfT's arguable greatest strength comes from tightly looping smaller loops to abuse hitbox size differences, which is also the best way to play against Nemesis, by greeding pallets to continuously force Whip attempts (especially early when he needs infection to break them). Pre-drop only works on the larger loops or god pallets, but filler pallets (which are most pallets) require the tight loop + greed pallet for generally optimal gameplay. Also Flashlights are of particular effectiveness against Nemesis in negating most gen pressure from zombies.
As far as a normal M1 pre-drop hold W, you walk around the pallet and build Bloodlust with the time they lost being animation locked. I know some Killer mains joke about a Survivor rulebook, but tenet 374: "thou must breaketh every pallet dropeth, no mindgames or bloodlusting allowedeth" for some reason is followed by all too many Killers. You can kick it later, its fine. Safe pallets, sure, but those are few and far between. I want to say if we round up to 20 pallets per map (on average), only 5 (on average) are truly safe (forced to kick). Once they are gone, they are gone. I'm glad to break those asap.
I don't quite understand the "you get hit, get rewarded, now you are harder to catch" complaint. START LIST*
DS/OTR/Unbreakable/Resilience/Iron Will/Adrenaline/Aftercare/Alert/Any Means Necessary/Autodidact/Better than New/Bite the Bullet/Blood Pact/Blood Rush/Boil Over/CoH/BT/Botany/Breakdown/Buckle Up/DH/Deliverance/Desperate Measures/Empathic Connection/Empathy/Fast Track/Flip-Flop/Guardian/Inner Focus/Inner Healing/Kindred/Kinship/Low Profile/Lucky Break/Mettle of Man/No One Left Behind/Overcome/Pharmacy/Plot Twist/Power Struggle/Quick Gambit/Reactive Healing/Reassurance/Renewal/Resurgence/Self-Care/Slippery Meat/Sole Survivor/Solidarity/Soul Guard/Collective Stealth/Power of Two/Tenacity/This Is Not Happening/Vigil/We'll Make It/We're Gonna Live Forever
*END LIST all also require a Survivor to be injured, hooked, downed, or 'fail' in some way or fashion, and 'reward' that same or a different Survivor for doing so. To be fair, not all give a chase benefit specifically, so if that was the particular pain point you can shrink the list a bit. They also (mostly) aren't mutually exclusive with the superior Sprint Burst. As long as Sprint Burst reigns supreme, I don't have a problem with MfT's speed. I did address how I dislike the 'stacking' potential with DH/BL in the above reply to Hanuka5, but I didn't get to say that yet in your timeframe, so that's fair.
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Because no matter how much of a crutch Made for This is, it doesn't stand against a player with sufficient gamesense. Don't get me wrong, the endurance should be transplanted onto a different perk, but the speed isn't as uncounterable as people make it out to be.
I didn't realize I still left my Anniversary meme build on Nemmy for the daily, and with Deadlock as my sole slowdown, I could still take on 3 MfTs. (No early kills either, seeing the lowest BP Survivor getting 17k.)
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@WilliamSN said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3553095#Comment_3553095
The problem is the fact that both things can happen in the same match.
Survivors split up or 1 + 2 on gens while you're chasing someone else and you lose 2-3 gens in 1 chase with absolutely no counterplay.
Then since the number of available generators effectively was decreased, survivors are more likely to pair up on a gen and crank it out in <50 seconds.
Pairing up is an eventuality because survivors will have to "meet up" for hooksaves, essentially guaranteing that no generator is "90 seconds" except for *maybe* first 1-2.
This problem is effectively compounded if survivors bring just a single commodius or "gigabox" and dump it on the first generator effectively guaranteeing that the average generator time in the entire trial is always <60 seconds.
This isn't even taking into account the multitude of survivor perks that give repair boosts.
Both can happen in the same match, but instead of keeping gens worked at 1 charge per second per Survivor, they penalize Survivors for grouping up. They drop to .85 charges per second per Survivor to duo a gen or 1.7 total, dropping to .7 charges per second per Survivor to trio a gen or 2.1 total, and dropping immensely to .55 charges per second per Survivor to quad a gen or 2.2 total. Due to this penalty, the only time Survivors have a reason to group up is to kick out a 3gen target, or finish the final gen.
I also don't understand why many Killers dislike the idea of Survivors grouping up. Nearly every Killer benefits from Survivors being together. Strong Killers can snowball hits quickly, Plague spreads more infection, Legion chains more hits, Ghosty gets more stalks, Doc gets more T3 madness for slowdown, Trapper has less people to see where he set up traps in advance, Ranged Killers can threaten gens to prevent greed working on it while the other Surv loops nearby, Knight can distract 1 Survivor with a guard and chase the other one, and everyone else can chase the person going for the less favorable loop/position instead of being forced to chase the person taking the strongest loop/position. The only Killer I can understand not liking grouping up is Twins, as that is their main counterplay.
I do want toolboxes nerfed, although I don't want the team who nerfed medkits to all be the same flavor to also be responsible for doing that. I'd like to see sabo's be dropped to 4 charges from 6, while also dropping toolbox charges by the same rate (2/3rds), that way repairs can get less gen progress, but sabo's won't be sacrificed on that same altar.
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@Seraphor said:
I'd say it's debatable how necessary this would be, but I feel all of the stealth killers, (Myers, Ghostface and Pig) shouldn't be slower in stealth mode, that's to say, Tier 1 Evil, or Crouching.
It defeats the point of having a stealth power on an M1 killer. Mobility is always the bane of M1 killers, simply due to the time it takes to both cross the map and catch up in chase. In order to use your stealth power, you need to move slower, which hinders you. If you try to traverse fast enough without your stealth power, survivors hear you coming, then you activate stealth and your TR disappears instantly so they're know you're there. It's lose-lose. Wraith is the only one that gets this right.
So I'd say: Tier 1 Evil should be 4.4ms, the no lunge distance is penalty enough. Ghostface and Pig should be much faster while crouched, maybe 4.4m/s, if not then 4.2m/s minimum, the lower and therefore reduced PoV is the penalty in this instance.
I can understand this stealth speed desire for matches where everyone has solid hours in the game. The problem being is I think this would annihilate newer players, and make them far too paralyzed in fear to even touch gens more than they already are.
T1 Myers being 4.4 sounds fine by me though, or at the bare minimum raise him to 4.3.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552712#Comment_3552712
Choosing to use strawmans and ad hominems to engage is what really proves you wrong. I'm not even going to try to debate with you if you are going to simply ignore everything I say and paint my arguments as being "in bad faith", whatever you meant with that.
Again, I already gave an extended explanation of how and why base progression with two survivors is the real problem. If you keep not understanding it, it's your fault. And if you want to address the real points I made instead of yet again bringing specific situations, subjective experiences and various fallacies to the table here I am. Meanwhile, I'm not even going to try to read whatever you said.
I gave a response to that and you replied
@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552621#Comment_3552621
"Shielding a bad faith argument with an extreme"... I stopped reading there.
Read the post above this one and just like I said, if you still doesn't understand it's on you.
"I stopped reading there."
So I will try one last time to respond. I even drew a little diagram to keep things more lighthearted.
Situation A is comparable to C with no toolboxes, and B to D with giga toolboxes (Commodius/Event+WireSpool+SocketSwivels). I also removed travel time between gens in favor of your argument (as the solo gen times don't need to run between gens).
When Survivors duo on gens, their comparable time is roughly 16s longer than the solo equivalent to pop 2 gens. Heck, a solo Surv with a gigabox can complete a single gen only ~2s slower than 2 Survivors duoing a gen. The item is so powerful, it replaces an entire player for a gen. That's crazy. I can't see how co-oping gens could be considered a problem when Survivors are already penalized to do so. I can understand how soloing gens is a problem, because of the risk/reward ratios.
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@Evan_ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552700#Comment_3552700
Off with the fingies from my yellows! Entire Clown-generations base their mindgames on that timing!
+1 bottles is a sound and realistic buff that still won't catapult Mr Chase to the higher tiers.
For added QoL, I'd suggest free bottle-switch, without having to wait out a timer and animations.
I think the problem with a quick switch is Clown still has the bottle swap bug IIRC, where if you arc a yellow and swap back to purple, it will convert the bottle mid-flight and that is super annoying. They probably also have a soft-cooldown to prevent unintended reswaps too fast from spamming the button.
@WilliamSN said:
Trapper - Trappers sack without the "can't pickup" penalty.
Nurse - Plaid Flannel. QOL change.
Artist - Severed Hands
Hag - Rope Necklet - QOL.
Twins - Toy Sword - QOL
Bubba - Chainsaw File - QOL
Doctor - Calm class 2
Onryo - Iri tape, essentially reverting half the rework.
Knight - Map of the realm
Xeno - Self destruct Bolt
Singularity - Kids Ball glove + Foreign Plant fibers
Trickster - Trick Blades + Caged Heart Shoes
All in all, theres alot of addons that either make sense to be basekit due to the characters power (Like trickster's trick blades) or should just be basekit for accessibility and basic QOL (like nurse's Plaid flannel)
I mean the thread asked for buffs to the bottom half of Killers, so that makes this list particularly interesting including Hag/Nurse/Artist/Twins being considered in the weaker half. To be fair though, I would be fine with Plaid Flannel basekit on Nurse, as then more people would easily win with her, and get her nerfed sooner.
@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
Since when is Ghostface weaker half? He got more buffs than rest of those combined....
Pig needs way more
Claw, Legion sure
I would like to see that for Freddy
Ghosty got buffs, but nothing for chase (which weaker Ghosty players misplay him as Chaseface or Campface instead, which works against soloq, but everything works against soloq). I'd essentially say if you have an M2 damaging/downing power you are in the top half by default (with an exception for Trickster), and that is an expansive list already. I'm personally perfectly happy with Ghosty how he is, and I'd even be fine if they reverted the 20s CD back up to 24s, as I spoke out against this helping skilled Ghostys far more then newbie Ghostys.
@GroßusSchmiedus said:
The Clown's yellow bottle need to have a bit of activation time, the more you play him the more you use them, especially further and ahead of time and with a lower activation timer it'd cause Survivors to get a speedboost with little risk.
Pig also needs its stealth buffed.
I most certainly am a Yellow bottle enjoyer myself, I just figure the dedicated Clown players can get used to a shorter timer, but newer/variety Clown players would benefit far greater from a shorter ready timer. I completely understand not wanting changes for people who don't even like the Killer however.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552712#Comment_3552712
Survivors get an anti camping mechanic with the next patch. You can test it on the PTB. It hits the exact wrong end of the tier list (weaker killers are affected more than stronger killers) but we'll see how it turns out.
It's also not that only Pig has a problem with multiple gens popping in rapid succession. This is a problem that all killers share. Admittedly, some less than others. But still, a killer will not be able to keep up with the pace of survivors that finish the game in 4 minutes. And if they can, you bet the survivors threw the game. This has nothing to do with the killer being inexperienced. Lethal Pursuer does not prevent the first 2 gens from getting finished before you can even hope to get a down with most killers.
After that first down, you would expect survivors to take some time to recover and the killer to get into a rhythm of hooking a survivor, traversing the map, chasing and hooking the next survivor. But that is not how it works. Consider a killer that takes exactly 45 seconds to get a down (BHVR's goal), 10 seconds to hook (including animations) and 5 seconds to get into the next chase (way faster than in reality). How many hooks can they get in these 4 minutes? 3. 4, if we're being generous. And we haven't even factored in what happens when a chase takes a bit longer than 45 seconds (which is extremely short for most killers), the killer takes the time to do something other than chasing (breaking pallets / breakable walls) or can't keep up this cycle.
But of course, the killer should be forced to run specific perks. That's why they are in the game. But survivors? No, they only have 16 perk slots (20, if we count base BT), so they can't use anti-camping perks. That is the double standard that I mentioned earlier. Either both sides have to use specific perks or suffer the consequences, or both can choose freely and get assisted by the game in case these situations occur.
I saw multiple videos that showed "I wasn't camping but they got to Kobe!!!" when the Killer was flagrantly camping, and I saw multiple instances of camping without activating the mechanic as well, because like I said, proxy camping chokepoints isn't 'camping' according to the system.
Multiple gens popping in succession is a natural part of a poor early game. When I listened to an explanation back when by McLean while he was still working on DBD, he more or less described early game as the first 3 gens popping, mid game as the 1/1/1/1 concept other people use now, and endgame being a final chance for Killer to shore up gate and hook defense. One thing people don't seem to understand, is that it isn't over until its over. Also known as the 1HP concept. As long as you have 1 HP in a turn based game, you still get the same turn that you had at 9999HP. The gens remaining or HP doesn't matter until you are at 0/fight for your life/endgame, and might be able to claw out for a final kill or more. It is important to take those 3 gen pops in stride and keep fighting until you are out entirely.
As far as the cycle timing, I feel like this must be missing some context, like being a powerless M1 or something. Survivor greed always gives free hits, so even a powerless M1 Killer can capitalize on their mistakes to snowball a win.
I don't think anyone should be 'forced' to run any perk, but I recognize the use case for crutches. Windows is a crutch for poor map knowledge, or a QoL soloq 'did they drop the pallet here' perk. Regression is an adjustable difficulty slider that can be used in concert with Killer choice. Do you run 0/1/2/3/4? Do you run Wraith or Dredge or Blight? Each are the difficulty sliders for Killer. Also counting 16 perk slots for Survivor, when Survivor perks are of a different power level compared to Killer perks, is a bit of a joke. Especially when the Meta Survivor perks can easily be played around by not tunneling (OTR/DS), not slugging in excess of 20s (Unbreakable), and more.
@WilliamSN said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552712#Comment_3552712
Feel like you're forgetting that during the 80s era, the meta at the time was DH-DS-UB-BT.
Chases didn't take an extra 20-30% longer because the survivor held shift W, or cranked out gens with Resi's completely unecessary 9% gen speed boost or the free permanent 6% shave thanks to deja vu aswell as a less developed/Veteran player base.
BNP's have been arguably BUFFED because they actively nerf the regression perks while permanently shaving off 10s of a gen.
Remember, 25% of 80 is not the same as 25% of 90.
All in all, arguments containing "well in a different meta killers could ...." are invalid.
Again speedrundotcom features solo survivors banging out gens in 4-6 minutes, which makes it hard to claim these are "extremes" when complete randoms without coordination can do it.
So you mean the stronger (and usable) 5s DS, the stronger DH for distance, the same strength UB (arguably stronger with the combined threat of DS), and the now mostly basekitted BT? That was far more difficult for Killer to deal with than the current retinue. Stealth and mindgames and Bloodlust all deal with MfT far better than they ever could deal with DH. Heck, Deja Vu didn't even get buffed to a permanent 6% until much later after the 90s gens when OCoBruption (Overcharge+Call of Brine+Eruption) users forced the dev's hand. The degen 3gen kick meta was the only time Killer was stronger than now, although there could be an argument made for old Undying Ruin on Blight for like 1-2 months while that existed.
BNPs are only buffed if the Killer regresses a gen to the extreme. A BNP gave 3 charges/s extra for 5s (if you hit both skill checks), or +15 charges over a normal repair, and the new BNP gives a static 10 charges and reduces repeated regression. To make up that difference you basically need to regress 50 gen seconds, or 2 current Pop kicks on 99'd gens, or ~4 Pop kicks on half gens (that have the BNP applied to them). I'd say I get 2 Pop kicks on a singular gen at most, and usually it gets completed or I need to Pop a different gen instead.
While it is fair to say things have changed drastically, they have changed largely in the favor of Killer (with an extra perk slot being available due to basekit BT being the major Survivor aid, but even then Killers could just go for the rescuer and down them easily and not need to risk Anti-Tunnel effects). Anti-tunnel gutted, CoH gutted, BNPs nerfed in the majority of cases, medkits gutted beyond belief, and Killer lost Ruin.
The point of the speedrun comparison was the sweaty Hens SWF extreme could only hover around 3 minutes, but Killers extreme can hover around 2. Even if we used the Survivor escapes on the speedrun site (which is quite flawed with their ruleset for both Killer and Survivor), it still is double to triple the Killer times.
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@BlightedDolphin said:
Not really a fan of the Ghostface suggestion. It really just rewards misplays and removes a part of his counterplay.
As a Ghostface main I would rather just have “Philly” be basekit so I can run some of his more fun add ons more often along with fixing his leaning so that it feels smoother and more useable in a chase. That’s all I really think he needs.
Or if you really wanted to encourage more players to stalk, add a small Haste after marking someone. Not as much as the Knife Sheath add on, maybe like a 5-7% Haste for 3 seconds.
The rest are good suggestions and I honestly think Myers would still be alright even if you just lowered T1 to 1 stalk point and kept T3 at 5 stalk points as it is.
I get the hindered isn't the best option, but I would disagree that it removes any significant part of counterplay. The original 10% 2s hindered would remove .8m, which is 1.33 'hold W' seconds in chase, but doesn't alter pallets or fast vaults. I didn't want to basekit Philly because I've mostly found no use for it outside of 'Chase stalking'. If you stalk out of chase, the .5s/1s saved is nearly meaningless. I also didn't want to basekit a purple add-on, even as a lesser form. When stalking correctly as Ghosty, DropKnife+Coup is busted. A reward for a down would be better basekit solution imo, but I didn't want too complicated of a suggestion either. I suggested a half Gift of Pain in the final paragraph here
@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552656#Comment_3552656
Clown - I coulda swore this entire time I've been playing him it only took 1s. That's friggin' nutty. I even checked the wiki before posting, yet somehow I just completely missed that. The concept is still sound, I just totally spaced on the numbers. Reduce it to 1.5s from 2.5s and it'd be a simple QoL change.
GF - I'd agree against people who don't heal (how it would be better to not stalk), but my favorite build relies on Iri Cam as an on-demand Floods of Rage, so I currently Mark injured Survs as well as healthy. The best way to play Ghosty is always down the healthy marked Survs, because it bypasses all of the perks that accentuate chase based frustrations. I jokingly and pejoratively call Ghostfaces that chase more than stalk 'Chasefaces', and they always suck at the game, and only win matches due to soloq stupidity.
I also picked the Hindered numbers to be weaker than most base power forms of Hindered, and I also believe 10% still allows for fast vaults as opposed to 15% (Clown and Freddy and Artist's add-on, with Clown being Cloud +2s, and Freddy being puddle +3s). To keep things more normalized, it could use Wesker's 8% as the 'normal' middle number between 3% and 15%, although Hag has 9% on her Iri for some bizarre reason, so 10% wouldn't be too crazy either. (I just checked the math, and 7.5% would be perfect to lose 1 'hold W' second, or .6m of distance. So based on how much stronger they would want Ghosty to be, this range 7.5%-10% would likely all be fine.)
Personally I think a better design would be a better buff for downing marks, but the only good ability currently is the Iri Cam, and that is just too strong to basekit. Some more complicated buffs would be a Gift of Pain styled penalty (for a marked down) with maybe Hemorrhage only (no Mangled) and only half the speed penalty only for repairs. Similarly I think your concept is more complicated than the intention of this thread, simple(r) actionable buffs. Tying the hindered to the KI duration allows for a worthless add-on to be usable as a side buff.
but I still think it might be too complicated for this type of post.
As far as Myers is concerned, I don't have problems with him right now, so I just wanted to keep the 10 points for the first T3, and if you popped it exclusively from the first person you stalked, you wouldn't be able to stalk them for the rest of the match. I wouldn't have too much of a problem if the first T2 stayed at 5 points, but I was playing a bit conservatively with the suggestions. Both Myers' and Freddy's suggested changes might still be too complicated beyond the simple number tweaks compared to Clown/Legion/Pig.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552621#Comment_3552621
"Shielding a bad faith argument with an extreme"... I stopped reading there.
Read the post above this one and just like I said, if you still doesn't understand it's on you.
Choosing to not engage when proven wrong merely proves you further wrong. Thinking a normal match is too quick, when I was consistently winning Clown matches with the 80s gens, shows a fundamental lack of understanding in how to play Killer, whether that be in micro (chases) or macro (gens/pallets). Check guides as how to play Killer if the gen times are a legitimate issue for you. Alternatively purposely 8 hook for a week (without kills), and intentionally lower your MMR. After that, you should be able to play in less sweaty matches, win normally, then finally reach a good equilibrium of Survivors with your skill level.
@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552524#Comment_3552524
Funny how that works. "Just bring Corrupt Intervention or Deadlock." is an acceptable answer. But when killers camp and say: "Just bring Reassurance or Kinship." that is an issue that must be fixed by the game itself without any perks. This is what you call double standard.
The devil is in the details. Deadlock prevents multi-gen pops, so I would only consider that 'necessary' on Pig to space headtraps going red for greater pressure, or a dedicated facecamper build, but even then that is more QoL for Pig than truly necessary. Corrupt Intervention helps shore up a weak early game, which can be mitigated by playing the game on both sides and learning the spawn mechanics better, or hopping into bot matches with Lethal Pursuer for an hour and getting a 'feel' for the game. Once you have a general idea of where people will spawn and how, such as quad spawns, dual duo spawns, and split spawns, you can play accordingly and not 'need' Lethal/Corrupt anymore. I will admit I am a Lethal Pursuer addict, but I often run at least 1 other aura effect alongside it as well.
What is the counter for camping? Don't be hooked? Ok, are Survivors designed to never go down? No, Bloodlust exists, pallets are finite, the entity blocks windows after the 3rd vault, so Survivor is designed to eventually go down. Is it possible to do anything on hook? You can end the game sooner... So you are in a situation without agency. Agency is key, as you can always make a different play as Killer, but Survivor is balanced around moments of no agency before you are allowed to play the game again. Camping denies an end to the agency-less situation. Agency is the issue. I too hate genb4fren, but camping from the onset encourages that instead. The anti-facecamp gives some semblance of agency, but still won't prevent proxycamping choke points instead.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
clown is not 0.5 second to activate yellow bottles. it is 2.5 seconds... it takes longer to activate then placing artist birds and knight's guards.
gf change is interesting except for the part where... it becomes worse to stalk people then to not stalk people. it is easier to use night shroud to direct hit people immediately then it is to stalk then hit people. the mechanic ends up punishing you for successfully stalking and rewards you for not stalking. I do understand that gf stalking is hard to use but i think this is wrong approach to improving him. one thing that i have thought about as an idea was that when ghostface is in night shroud, he can hear sound cues visually similar to how Xenomorph can hear footsteps when he is underneath the tunnel. The idea is that you can visual hear survivors to know which side of generator they are repairing and this gives him a mini-nurse calling. at base, it would only work up to 16 meters but if he crouches, it would be increased by 8 meters. the visual noise indicator has an active window of ~1.5 seconds with a cooldown of 6 seconds to not make too much of a wall-hack tool at loops. these number might need to be adjusted to be higher depending on how much survivor complains about wall-hacking at loops...
Clown - I coulda swore this entire time I've been playing him it only took 1s. That's friggin' nutty. I even checked the wiki before posting, yet somehow I just completely missed that. The concept is still sound, I just totally spaced on the numbers. Reduce it to 1.5s from 2.5s and it'd be a simple QoL change.
GF - I'd agree against people who don't heal (how it would be better to not stalk), but my favorite build relies on Iri Cam as an on-demand Floods of Rage, so I currently Mark injured Survs as well as healthy. The best way to play Ghosty is always down the healthy marked Survs, because it bypasses all of the perks that accentuate chase based frustrations. I jokingly and pejoratively call Ghostfaces that chase more than stalk 'Chasefaces', and they always suck at the game, and only win matches due to soloq stupidity.
I also picked the Hindered numbers to be weaker than most base power forms of Hindered, and I also believe 10% still allows for fast vaults as opposed to 15% (Clown and Freddy and Artist's add-on, with Clown being Cloud +2s, and Freddy being puddle +3s). To keep things more normalized, it could use Wesker's 8% as the 'normal' middle number between 3% and 15%, although Hag has 9% on her Iri for some bizarre reason, so 10% wouldn't be too crazy either. (I just checked the math, and 7.5% would be perfect to lose 1 'hold W' second, or .6m of distance. So based on how much stronger they would want Ghosty to be, this range 7.5%-10% would likely all be fine.)
Personally I think a better design would be a better buff for downing marks, but the only good ability currently is the Iri Cam, and that is just too strong to basekit. Some more complicated buffs would be a Gift of Pain styled penalty (for a marked down) with maybe Hemorrhage only (no Mangled) and only half the speed penalty only for repairs. Similarly I think your concept is more complicated than the intention of this thread, simple(r) actionable buffs. Tying the hindered to the KI duration allows for a worthless add-on to be usable as a side buff.