jesterkind
jesterkind
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@CashelP14 said:
@Tr1nity @GoodBoyKaru @sizzlingmario4 @anarchy753 @jesterkind
Thanks to all you for participating. I want to know did you find it difficult trying to squeeze everything you wanted to change into such a small area? Do you realise how many things you wanted to change, but didn't have the "time" to do it?
Funny how most of you wanted to give a nerf to Tinkerer. Also don't think I didn't noticed some of you bending the rules slightly to nerf 2 perks on 1 role 😉 it's ok 👍 I only added that rule because I didn't want someone doing 3/4/5 nerfs to perks on one role (I.e Nerf Ds, Bt, Boil Over, Dead Hard and CoH).
Once again thanks for participating 👍 hope you had fun
Honestly, it wasn't the small number of changes, it was the restriction on how to change them that got me- I didn't include any addons because I genuinely can't think of any that'd benefit from a number tweak, the problem ones in either direction need more substantial changes.
Also, Tinkerer is pretty much the only problematic Killer perk lmao, not too surprising it got nominated the most.
Hopefully this exercise helps people show a little more lenience towards the devs in future, eh?
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@Pulsar said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2786678#Comment_2786678
That's what it does currently, so no.
So, what alternative is it that you're proposing?
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I have to ask- are you implying the game should just toss together completely random players that just happen to share a region server...?
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@anarchy753 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2786640#Comment_2786640
Tar Bottle could just make traps like 30% transparent. That way no matter what they're placed on they should blend in better.
True, I just like the idea of them looking different for each map. It's a neat concept, and presumably wouldn't be that much work beyond picking what shade for each map.
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I don't know how to do the fancy formatting, so forgive me on that...
Killer Rework: The Shape.
- Distance-based variation on stalking rate removed. At all ranges, The Shape stalks at roughly the speed of the middle of the previous curve.
- Tiering up from Tier II to Tier III is faster, at the cost of Tier III draining faster. (Was 60 seconds, now 45)
- Tier I: Lunge penalty removed.
- Tier II: Unchanged.
- Tier III: Any Survivor over 50% stalk progress is revealed through Killer Instinct for 5 seconds when Tier III begins. Additionally, The Shape can break dropped pallets and breakable walls while in Tier III by simply walking through them at the cost of a movement penalty while doing so.
Some addons changed to accommodate for the changed aspects of his kit.
The Shape has been in the game for a long time, and while the core aspects of his kit hold up tremendously well, some parts have started to feel outdated. These changes hope to bring The Shape up to modern standards and give his Tier III a bit more impact.
Slight Killer Change: The Trapper.
- Addon "Tar Bottle" reworked into "Camouflage Kit"; instead of darkening traps, this addon now applies a map-appropriate camouflage. On Coldwind and Eyrie of Crows, traps appear slightly sandy, on Ormond slightly iced over, etc. For any map without a distinct colour pallet, the effect is unchanged and traps are still darkened.
Visual updates and more varied appearances for the maps in this game are absolutely a good thing, but some of the brighter aesthetics have left Trapper floundering a little. Rather than make changes to those maps, this addon aims to give Trapper a little future-proofing for players who want to be a little more daring with their trap placement.
Perk Changes (Survivor).
- Iron Will: Grunts of pain reduced by 75% (was 100%)
- No Mither: Grunts of pain reduced by 100% (was 75%)
- Left Behind: Now additionally grants the ability to open the Hatch without a key.
- Technician: Extra failed skill check penalty removed.
- Distortion: Regain a token when completing a heal on a teammate, or performing a Safe Hook Rescue.
Iron Will always provided a little too much benefit for no downside- while players who want to be sneaky will still see quite a bit of use from it, now the full silence is something to give the 'hard mode' of No Mither a slightly better upside.
Perk Changes (Killer).
- Tinkerer: Now only procs once per generator.
- Hex: Huntress Lullaby: Now starts at what was "full stacks" and no longer has a token system. When a survivor is hooked for the first time in the match, Huntress Lullaby activates and causes skill checks to be silent until cleansed.
- Coulrophobia: Now decreases healing speeds by 75% (was 50%), and additionally the effect lingers for 10 seconds upon exiting the Terror Radius.
- Jolt: Effect now triggered by any down, not just downs through Basic Attacks.
- Deerstalker: New additional effect: Survivors who go from Dying to Injured have their auras revealed for 6 seconds.
With the exception of Tinkerer, these perks are all less popular choices. Giving them a bit of love ought to help perk loadouts see a little more variety!
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1: Bubba's facecamping is a problem, but the rest of the things you just listed are what make him a fun killer, because he's actually pretty good when played more "normally" while being a killer you can dodge and evade if you're on the ball. Those things are fun!
2: This game hasn't been a hide and seek game for a loooooong time. It's more about the chase and has been for quite a while, since long before I started playing. Being immersed and hiding in a corner just doesn't work out for you all the time anymore.
3: Nurse has issues with her core design but I would have to disagree that it's because she's "unfun". It's more that she has a chokehold on balance for a lot of perks and core mechanics, unless you're going against a god Nurse she's plenty interactive.
4: I understand where you're coming from on this, but DS is the wrong call. Something like Borrowed Time would be a better fit for a basekit anti-tunnel measure, with some tweaks, which is apparently what they're looking at!
5: The emblem system already rewards players who perform well but die, so I'm not sure what you mean by this one?
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@Toybasher said:
I know the emblem system isn't perfect, but I thought it was a decent way to grade "participation" in the match.
Can't loop and die all the time? If you contributed enough to the match (healing, gens, totems, etc.) you can still rank up.
Got 8 hooks, no kills? Still considered doing an excellent job, especially if you got into lots of chases.
Tying it ONLY to escape/kills just feels like a step back to me. A bubba who facecamps the first survivor to death first down, the other 3 finish gens, and he facecamps a second survivor to death with NOED, making it a 2 hook, 2 kill game shouldn't be seen as more skillful compared to a killer who gets 8 hooks, even though nobody died. (Although I still think deaths should contribute extra compared to just hooks. Like, each death should count as an additional 2 hooks.)
Tying it to only escapes for survivors means it's all-or-nothing. Played as your typical Tapp main, banged out 3 and a half gens, got 2 hook rescued, healed survivors, did some totems, etc. and died at the end, even though your actions enabled the other survivors to escape? You're considered worse than the Blendette who literally did nothing but hide in bushes the entire game. (At least hatch escapes provide no MMR bonus, but I think they still count it as a win if the killer shuts the hatch and you escape out a door.)
It's helpful to remember that the point of the matchmaking system isn't to determine who's more skilful- it was a mistake of them to use the word "skill" in the name, even if it is still accurate when you're looking at aggregate batches of MMR brackets instead of individual games.
What the matchmaking system asks of a player when the match ends isn't "how skilful were you", it's "should you go against stronger or weaker opponents". If you won that match, it's a point towards needing stronger opponents, and if you lost then it's a point away from needing stronger opponents. Amass enough points, you move up the bracket.
The facecamping Bubba should go against stronger opponents. They shouldn't be stomping noobs who can't deal with them, they should be going against teams that know what to do. Same for the immersed Claudette- she should be escalated to being the weak link against a good killer because the cheese strat should stop working eventually.
It's also worth mentioning that the MMR system should not account for problems with the game's balancing, it should very explicitly be built as though those problems don't exist so it's future proofed for when the problems are fixed.
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@Warcrafter4 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2786298#Comment_2786298
Temple has a small 3rd floor section with no hooks that everyone forgets about which can force 2 falls to get to a hook if a specific corner hook didn't spawn(Even if the corner spawns its close).
For Dwelling if the basement spawns in the main building theres effectively 2 forced falls for basement and 1 forced fall(walking around the fall takes more then 4 seconds for each) for hooks outside the building which there's no guarantee there will be hooks close enough on that side of the building because of the basement.
Temple one does sound pretty bad, I'd have to see how it turns out myself- my suspicion is that any map that has things close by to the spot isn't going to be too bad because you can just leave them there and it doesn't take three hours to get back to the action, but it's definitely still a problem. Just not as bad as the nightmare of RPD.
Dwelling, I'm very unconvinced. It's not a forced fall at all, but they can get lucky in pushing you off the edge, which is... what Boil Over is supposed to do? It's supposed to make you a little more likely to escape, and that's what it does here- the killer isn't guaranteed a lack of a hook, especially since it's only even a risk if the basement spawns. If the basement doesn't spawn, there'll be hooks there and you're fine.
I'm not saying Boil Over is perfectly fine no matter what- it's either that the 25% should be lowered or that it's too sensitive on what counts as a fall to trigger it, I'm not sure which, but on the vast majority of maps it's just a pretty good perk. It's only abusable in spots where the killer can't do anything without being at a serious disadvantage, and that's only true on RPD all the time and Eyrie sometimes.
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@Warcrafter4 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2784691#Comment_2784691
Both versions of red forest(Mother's dwelling and temple) both can have forced double drop spots as well.
More maps that can be exploited are being found as we speak.
Its a perk that they'd have to redesign the entire game around to make it remotely fair and that's more work then just reverting Boil Over.
Legitimate question: What makes those spots abusable, instead of just areas where Boil Over has a little more value? The RPD library spot is abusable because you cannot hook there. Spots like Ormond, Dead Dawg, Gideon's, Crotus Prenn- there are hooks there, Boil Over is more likely to do something there (and it's a good indication that the number should be scaled back a little; the perk isn't OP but it's a liiiiiiiiittle overtuned) but it's not a guaranteed unable to hook area.
So, how does it work out to a literal inability to hook on those spots?
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Focusing on the part that's being abused would probably help. Rather than the perk, which is generally okay (if slightly too strong, potentially) in the majority of situations, the offering for the specific map being abused should probably be killswitched.
Or fixed. If it can be fixed without the need for the killswitch that's fine too.
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@CyberDragoon656 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2784899#Comment_2784899
To a point it is however due to how the game is set up think about it.
Usual killer build
-bbq
-corrupt
-a slowdown perk such as pop or ruin
-a counter measure perk such as in boil over case iron grip
It can change slightly due to who the killer is but as more survivor perks get buffed or in coh's case nerfs that do nothing killer builds are starting to get more and more ridged causing variety to die slowly.
I mean, I won't argue that perk diversity could use some serious revitalising right now, but that has basically nothing to do with Boil Over being only useful for bully squads.
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I wasn't playing for old Ruin, but my understanding is that this version is far more consistent across all tiers of play, where old Ruin unfairly punished newer players but had very little effect on more experienced ones.
It looks like the rework made it better, from where I'm sitting.
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@RainehDaze said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2784889#Comment_2784889
Thompson House if the hook doesn't spawn?
Anyway, I still feel like people are reading way too much into it to decide it must be spiteful. Honestly, I keep forgetting Boil Over also hides nearby hook auras, so I can imagine that would trip people up regularly enough--no aura seen = no hook, back to the floor you go.
Maybe? We could litigate everywhere that the game arbitrarily decides is a completely safe killer-deadzone, but the abusable spots are the ones where hooks never spawn and there's nothing you can do about it.
Regarding your second point: If OP was just slugged, or dropped so the killer could look for a hook, or literally anything else, sure, I could see it being fair play, but dropping and standing there until they bleed out says to me that it was motivated by spite. It's a tremendously terrible tactical decision, and so it's the action of someone who wants to make a point or who's motivated by salt.
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@CyberDragoon656 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2784889#Comment_2784889
It's just a bully tool now and yet also another problem that causes killers to become very limited and needs a very restricted build.
Nnnnnot really? If they fix the two abusable spots, it'll be something bully squads run, sure, but it'll also be a fairly decent perk for everyone else too.
Bully squads run all kinds of perks that aren't strictly only useful for them, after all.
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@CyberDragoon656 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2784875#Comment_2784875
Yes and no some maps have issues with hook spacing like midwich and and artist's map specifically the main building but also due to how the game considers something as a great fall doesn't help.
Also given how most perks are now I'm not defending the killer but as soon as you see the boil over symbol I can see someone just right away decided to drop the survivor and let them bleed.
Yes, but those aren't abusable spots by Boil Over, they're just bad areas in general. The abusable spots for Boil Over are the library spot in RPD, and kinda-sorta the main structure in Eyrie of Crows- because no matter what, regardless of how you play or what the hook spawn RNG is, you cannot get a hook. It's not abusing Boil Over to just have it equipped and get lucky with hook spawns.
I absolutely see why they did it. I also see why it was unnecessary and petty. Their actions make logical sense, that doesn't mean they were right and justified.
Bottom line: Boil Over doing something is not proof of it being OP nor is it proof the survivors were abusing it. I do think the perk could use some minor tweaks, but the reaction shown in this thread was an overreaction, plain and simple.
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@CyberDragoon656 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2784549#Comment_2784549
For gideon it's every flight of stairs the one corner hole and maybe the two gate areas, the problem also is if it's a bully swf or just unlucky that massive amount of pull boil over has can tug you just enough to fall into the hole same with the artist's map and dead dawg saloon along with a few outside maps it wouldn't be an issue by itself but with everything else to consider there are some legit reasons to have a survivor bleedout.
Also I'm confused so you are saying there's no reason to bleed out survivors while saying reasons to do it.
There's no way those spots are abusable, there are hooks in those areas and there's no way to force the killer to drop down unless you get lucky with which direction the wiggle strafe effect moves the killer in. Boil Over is more useful in those areas, at least if you get lucky, but that's not even slightly comparable to the RPD library area where it is literally impossible to get a hook.
To clarify my last statement: The killer in that video is on a map that isn't abusable, in a spot where there are definitely hooks to put the survivor on. There is no reason to force a survivor to bleed out just for having Boil Over, because that perk is only abusable in certain spots of certain maps, which this killer was not on. Doing it here is just spite over not liking the perk they brought, it was not a wise tactical decision and it was not a justified move.
Obviously if it is someone abusing those spots, yes, leave them to bleed out, that's the only thing you can do.
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@MaTtRoSiTy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2784699#Comment_2784699
It is also exploitable on Eyrie and Ormond too, I have had random solo team mates do just that and they didn't bring a map offering, they just got 'lucky' with random map selection. But I am sure they were not intending to abuse the perk anyway... right?
Eyrie kind of, it's harder but there is only one hook up there so if you're on the other side or it's already been used to sacrifice someone, I'd buy that as an exploitable area. Ormond, though, I'm not sure how? Certainly Boil Over could be strong there, but there are hooks really close to the point you drop from up there so you'd have to get pretty lucky to be unhookable even if you're downed on the top floor.
And no, if they didn't bring a map offering their intent probably wasn't to abuse it. It was just to use it, because it's actually a pretty decent perk now. Using =/= abusing when the perk in question isn't inherently OP, you have to have intent to exploit certain map areas for it to be abusing Boil Over and RPD is the only consistently abusable spot that I'm aware of- though you can kind of make Eyrie work with a little luck so we'll count that one too.
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@PeaceNGrease said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2784677#Comment_2784677
No dude, I've been playing against boil over since it's release, and to ignore that it's a bigger issue now than before? Well, as you said, you have the priveldge not to know, but it is absolutely a huge pain in the ass (as it already was annoying before buff) for it's wiggle distortion. As for this example, I agree, this one isn't bad and the killer may have been being petty, but I'm not going to say he's wrong, maybe he legitimately has issues with not seeing the hook.
Also who cares? Survivors can only BM or what? Sometimes things like this will happen, like if you play nurse and a survivor tests your blinks, finds you lacking, they will teabag and taunt to compound that frustration and it will happen almost without fail, 98% of the time. Who cares about the BM at this point? That is the biggest issue of this thread, and it in itself is petty, so for my point it is irrelevant.
And I never claimed Boil Over as OP, but it should be Killswitched or amended sooner than later, because it is EXPLOITABLE! You know, like leaving PH trails or Hang traps near a hook, it's not 100% unbeatable, it's not 100% OP but it should not be an interaction that exists, point blank.
The only thing I agree with in this message is that Boil Over is exploitable. Though, the thing that needs to be killswitched is the RPD badge, since that's the thing that's being exploited using Boil Over.
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@MaTtRoSiTy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2784549#Comment_2784549
Yes of course and I imagine they always ran Boil Over and didn't just start using it as they know it is completely broken and easy to abuse right?
Give me a break, the OP brought the perk in the hope of bullying a killer then felt hard done by when it backfired and the killer made them pay for it. We all know this perk is broken and should never have gone to live servers so stop the gaslighting please, it is just annoying and patronising.
???
They probably started using it because it's buffed. Without bringing an RPD offering (or maybe an Eyrie of Crows offering, that map is abusable too to a lesser extent) it is not at all easy to abuse, because without bringing an RPD offering you have to hope you get RPD.
Bringing BO isn't abusing it just because it's in the game, the effect it has on the majority of maps is noticeable but nowhere near OP.
Also, disagreement is not gaslighting, that term is quite important so it's pretty crass to misuse it like that.
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@PeaceNGrease said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2784549#Comment_2784549
Thats Bullspit. I play on Console, it is not easy trying to counter those movements on a 100 percent new, functional controller. Try it on one you've had for 2 months with selectively bad deadzones (it only affects this game somehow, #########??) That make certain angles not even work?
Outside of that, why does this perk have 3 great effects? what's being said is how strong it is on vertical maps, what's being ignored is it's strength on almost ANY indoor map. Name a single killer perk that gets as much value in one single perk? It's overtuned, not to mention the fact the counter for it is literally two perk slots. And let's just hope it's not paired with flip flop, Christ almighty help you if they run that, you don't even need that much coordination to get massive value out of it
...It's really not that bad, and again, in this example Boil Over is achieving very little beyond getting the killer mad. Gideon's has plenty of hooks in that area, this was just being mad at the existence of Boil Over.
Also, it doesn't require two perks to counter, if you struggle with the strafe movements you bring one perk, Iron Grasp. And that's if you struggle with the strafe movements, it doesn't require it. I'll grant it's probably harder on console, but that doesn't even slightly translate to leaving survivors to bleed out because they're using a totally legitimate perk that you happen to find harder to handle?
Boil Over is not OP, oh my god. It's just something you notice now.
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@ThePolice said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2784602#Comment_2784602
But you will not win by doing that with blight
Well, yes, but while you're learning him Blight has leeway that Nurse doesn't. The ability to loop normally will still come in useful during normal games anyway, so Blight being able to do that where Nurse doesn't does make him easier in a strict sense.
Nurse is stronger but that comes at the cost of being way harder. You have to learn how to do the hyper specific thing that only she does because she cannot do anything else, whereas Blight's power has more in common with other killers and he's a regular 115 killer under it.
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I'd say no for the sole reason that Blight still can just M1 loop like any other 115 killer, and Nurse can't loop normally at all.
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@MaTtRoSiTy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2784514#Comment_2784514
Survivors know this perk is broken and just plain unfun and unfair to bring, so if you still choose to bring it regardless then yeah I totally understand why this killer did it and I would do it too. My streamer friend was running it too but he had to take it off as he got hard tunnelled every game as soon as the killer realised he had it.
If you want to bring something knowing it results in unfun games for the killer, expect unfun tactics in response (I am a survivor main too btw).
I mean, look at the map OP is on. Boil Over can absolutely be broken and unfun... on certain maps. For the majority of the maps, it's stronger but it's fine, and Gideon's doesn't have any abusable spots to my knowledge. Maybe one of the gaps down to the second floor if you're lucky, but it's not a guarantee and there are hooks down there if you manage to get the killer to drop there anyway.
OP is right that this is childish. Boil Over isn't OP, it's abusable on some maps, and there's no reason to force someone to bleed out just for bringing it with intent to use it legitimately.
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I do think the RPD badge should definitely be killswitched at the moment, until they can add a hook or two up there on the library.
One could argue that this still isn't what the killswitch is for because everything is working as intended - it's not broken OR abusable, it's broken AND abusable, things that are just broken in a way that only negatively impacts the user aren't killswitched for instance - but I think this is close enough to warrant using it. It may not be a bug that's being exploited, but it is still an exploit and it is still worthy of at least considering the killswitch for.
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@Starrseed said:
I like the idea. Bw is kinda a meme perk but has his value but getting a perk like this would be to nice.
Just getting a perks that says survivors in the dying state and survivors hit in the last 10 seconds are unable to leave. Boom its not to strong its an endgame perk so you get to only have three perks wich makes it somewhat balanced and it would have the same status as ds, dh and bt you don't now it's there till you see it but you have to have some lvl of respect regardless
I'd definitely run this, it'd see massive value from greedy survivors lmao
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@StarLost said:
Freddy is awful now, but once upon a time he was pretty enjoyable.
Halloween has a fun (if slightly bleh) killer and one good perk.
Ghostface is...Ghostface. Wait for the rework. His perks are nothing to write home about.
Bubba is a fantastic choice for his perks (BBQ is a necessity imho, Franklins will always have it's place). I've just never enjoyed him.
Pyramid Head is a fun killer with terrible perks and addons.
Cenobite is a fun (if slightly weak) killer with excellent perks.
If I was going to 'buy into' this game starting fresh, I'd grab Bubba for his teachables and either Myers or Cenobite to play.
To be fair, Halloween has more than one good perk. Save The Best For Last is genuinely great, Play With Your Food has its place, Decisive Strike is still very very strong, and people sleep on reworked Object Of Obsession, it's still really good.
Haddonfield may be an awful map but most of the Halloween DLC is actually pretty good- two dud perks out of six isn't that bad at all.
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I'd like a series of different loading screens in general. Doesn't have to be fancy, could even just be artwork of various characters in the game, but it'd be a nice change of pace.
I do adore the event loading screens, and this new one is honestly really snazzy.
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In terms of faithfulness to the source material, I'd peg the best as Halloween, followed shortly by Texas Chainsaw Massacre. Worst is... honestly they're all good at being faithful, so no contender.
In terms of sheer quality... worst is definitely Nightmare On Elm Street, it started from an extremely shaky foundation in being only the remake and added definitely the weakest things to the game. Best is Stranger Things as everything it added was quality, but after that probably, hmm... they're all pretty good so it's hard to choose. Pinhead is a good pick.
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I don't hate the idea, but I do think that the cooldown is far too long.
The idea of tying it to seeing the killer while working on generators is interesting, but the problem Premonition is always going to come up against is that Spine Chill is simply always going to be superior, and I'm not sure how to remedy that...
Maybe just completely untie it from distance? After working on a generator for a total of twenty seconds, you see the killer's aura no matter where they are for [x] seconds, then it goes on cooldown/you have to build it back up again?
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@EntitySpawn said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2782903#Comment_2782903
Not really, I think most high MMR players can say what is skillful and what isnt.
Infact it's why most high end players arent happy with it as they understand you can escape without doing well and you can get kills by unskillful plays.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2782587#Comment_2782587
I'm saying there should be a draw. Atm in DBD you win or lose, and those conditions is kills and escapes. Which isnt the best way to balance things.
Killers have just as much power over hooks as they do kills, in fact it's more likely a killer can get hooks than kills. Bet far more killers have gotten multiple hooks but 0 kills, saying a killer that gets 8hooks but 0kills is bad is just silly, I gave you an example how you can easily get 2 kills every game with hardly any effort or skill.
You can't say kills are better when 1 kill can be 0-9hooks...
How can something that has a range of 0-9 be more accurate than something that counts the actual progress? (the max being 12 in a trial, but you get 9 and it's a loss, that's 75% and you lose)
Hooks are more accurate, they also show more skill. But Its why I said a draw should be added in as it's an asymmetric game, then you can balance of more skill based things.
But the killer player - who I assume is who we're talking about because we're talking about hooks - already can draw. Two kills is a draw in this system, that's two wins and two losses in the individual 1v1 the MMR looks at for each survivor.
Regarding having just as much power over hooks as they do kills, I respectfully disagree. A killer can be gifted both by a player that simply doesn't want to play, but a killer can't be robbed of kills in the way that they can be of hooks. As I laid out in my first response, failed kobes, disorganised saves, and just generally getting your kills in the endgame instead of before all rob the killer of individual hooks without it actually having anything to do with their play at all.
Besides, kills are the killer's objective, hooks are just the way to get there. It shouldn't really matter if you two-hooked everyone and they all escaped, because your job is to stop them from escaping. Over time, how many times you win, lose, or draw at the game is a pretty reasonable indicator of where you should be placed in a matchmaking system, so I don't see why there's any need to swap it over to measuring something other than the win condition.
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@AngyKiller said:
It would certainly allow the devs to finally balance the game around SWFs. But every time I've suggested this, people have a ton of vague reasons why it won't work for DBD, even though voice chat has worked for every other multiplayer game.
I quite genuinely don't mean to start ######### here, but if what's irking you is specifically that the reasons are vague, I can give you an extremely concrete one:
The thing that makes SWF more powerful than SoloQ isn't that they can talk to one another, it's that they can communicate and be understood. For most server groups in this game, simply implementing a voice chat will not bridge that gap because they do not necessarily share a language with their teammates. Simply put, it wouldn't fix the problem because everyone needs to be on the same page for balancing to be effective.
The information needs to be conveyed neutrally and by the game itself for it to actually be comparable to what SWF have access to.
To the OP, though, I'd love for that to be an option in custom games because it does sound really fun.
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@Mandy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2782735#Comment_2782735
He most definitely is iconic, that's kind of an understatement!
Can't say what streams he will be on, but pretty sure he'll pop up at some point!
That's good to hear, I've always liked his stage presence and voice on streams. He's a nice chill presence.
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I messed up and clicked the wrong option, didn't clock the "killer" stipulation and thought it was just a license poll. I was about to be very annoying and mention my pet desire again...
From this list, I'd be down for the Tallman, from what I know of those movies he'd be pretty cool. But since I picked Other, uhhh.... Judge Death?
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@EntitySpawn said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2781789#Comment_2781789
Yes but this issue is everyone is deemed on a win or loss, like I said in the op an asymmetric game cant be balanced like non asymmetric games.
So having a draw would be acceptable, this means hooks can be used as a balance point (more precise) and then you can encourage hooks over camping and tunneling which in turn improves game health and community satisfaction while still having a working SBMM.
A simple point system like comps use (1point for hook, 2points for kill) would be far better than kills and escapes equal win. It just encourages selfish and bad plays, the amount of times I'm just left to die after carrying most of the match is a little stupid tbh.
1 kill is 0-9hooks that's far too vague to get good data, use a point system including hooks and that huge gap is now a more accurate balancing point
I'm not sure where you're getting that from- the killer player can draw, that's what two kills is. Survivors can't, and perhaps they should be able to, but their win condition kind of is much more binary and has been from the start so I think it's probably fine that every match is considered as what it is by the MMR system.
As for the current system encouraging selfish and bad plays, it doesn't, but I do empathise that it's going to be very hard to actually get through to people that the MMR system does not reward or punish them no matter what they do. Too many people can't quite grasp that there's no progression or incentive associated with it.
But as I detailed in my original response, basing it on hooks would be far more inaccurate because that is not something the killer has control over. Kills are, at least to a degree, and it's also what the killer's win condition is so it makes most sense to measure that instead of something more granular.
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@Junylar said:
So, how long exactly is this SOON™ going to be?
If they knew that, they'd have told us already. Besides, it's the weekend, they're probably not at work right now.
...I think. I don't know if BHVR work weekends.
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@Mringasa said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2781906#Comment_2781906
Oh nah. I know grade means nothing but how much time you've played. Especially since you can't rank down at all. Just lose pips back to same grade 0 pips.
I just feel that if you are going to say the game itself is team based, you need to rank people based on their team effort. That includes everything, comparable to the Emblem system (something I think just needed tuned better to make it harder for Survivors to rank up). Escaping doesn't necessarily mean you contributed to the team.
If they are going to rank, actual rank not grade, people based on escapes only, they need to make the game itself, at its base, solo oriented. It becomes the 1v1v1v1v1 that it was originally intended. This doesn't work of course, in my eyes at least, since the game has evolved fully into a 1v4 team based game. Perks, mechanics, and all other things are team oriented for Survivors. The only exception being the hatch.
I honestly think the Emblem system could have worked, if they had tuned it better and developed it more. I know how easy it was to rank up as a Survivor, I generally had to meme for a number matches to drop back to where I was comfortable playing. It just seems more fitting to have a ranking system based on your total team effort, and not just a single point/no point if you escape.
I could definitely get behind more of a team thing for survivor MMR- I know the team said they were looking into addressing how the MMR system interacts with teams, but I'm pretty sure that they meant more like SWF adjustments and such. It shouldn't be too complicated since it's meant to work off aggregate batches of games instead of a single match, but there definitely is room for nuance here.
(Though again- kind of speculative until we know how the system functions after the matching portion is addressed)
I do disagree that the emblem system could've worked, though- it fundamentally didn't work at all for killer, and it was far too easy to rank up for survivors. If we're talking about which system is a better base for improving upon, I'd contend it's easily this one, and it's not even close.
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@Mringasa said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2781844#Comment_2781844
Bit of a problem with this though. I die/lose about 60-70% of my matches, yet I don't drop in MMR. I'm still facing Killers of roughly the same skill level, with Survivor team mates of roughly the same skill. There are those few outlier games where I get completely stomped, or completely walk over the Killer. The majority of my matches are with opponents of roughly the same level of play I have.
With the current MMR system, and how I play (my win conditions aren't the same of course), I should be in the bottom ranks of players. Getting matched with new players and those who play more casual like myself. I'm not though. I'm facing, and playing with, people of the same skill level as I did under the old system (high purples -> low reds). I'm not a top tier player obviously, but my matches feel comparable to how they were before. I get a few more outliers, to either end, but overall it's still the same level of play.
Well, right now it just doesn't work, as the devs have confirmed. So right now your matches are gonna be a little bit out of whack, especially at certain times.
Also, grade doesn't have anything to do with rank? I'm not sure if you were just using that as shorthand for people who play about the same and the same amount as your opponents before, but it's worth mentioning in case that's a point of contention.
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@Mringasa said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2781789#Comment_2781789
This might work, but how about the events where you play altruistically and help your team enormously, then die at the end. You may have contributed the most for the other 3 players' "win", but you lose in the end because you died. This, by the way, is normally how i play. I'll do gens, unhook/heal, try to help my team out as much as possible, but at the end of it, I'll gladly hook swap and take the death if it means getting someone else out of the game alive.
That other person might not have done a thing the entire match but skulk around the map, but they get the "win" and I take the "loss", even though I did more for the victory. This is why I don't think a single "win" condition should be in effect. The entirety of the match should be considered with regard to MMR. Heck, the other person might have done just as much as I did, and they should get extra points with regard to their MMR because they did escape, but I don't think I should be penalized with a straight up "loss" when I helped as much as possible.
Well, does that happen every game? Even if it does, it sounds like this is how you prefer to play and you've already accepted that dying is a part of it, so you'll sort of hover around a certain level of MMR where you're not going up against potatoes but you're also not elevated up too far, either. It's certainly an outlier situation that should be considered, it's a valid point to raise, but I don't think it truly breaks the MMR when by your own admission you're choosing to take a loss because presumably that's a more fun way of playing for you.
It loops back around to the common misunderstanding that MMR is some kind of reward- there's nothing waiting for you at a higher number, just harder games that you might find less fun. But again, I do agree that if the system still needs work, using emblem score or something equivalent as a weight metric to see how far up/down someone goes would be the best option- you just still have to win, which should be your goal anyway.
Regarding your point about the person who does nothing the entire match but skulk around, I'd point you back towards my answer to the facecamping killer- that player should be elevated to the point where their cheese strat stops working. Above a certain threshold of skill, that player is the weak link a killer will leverage into a win, and they'll have to learn how to actually loop to stay alive.
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@EntitySpawn said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2781736#Comment_2781736
But the issues you bring up happen more with kills as a means of ranking, neither are perfect but hooks show that little bit more.
Everyone can give up giving you 4 kills in a few hooks, doing the way I suggested wouldn't boost you up in mmr for a team not playing.
I'm also not expecting people to get 12hooks, but if someone can get 12 hooks against a team they clearly should gain a decent amount of mmr for that match.
Hooks just show more than kills, allows a more precise balancing point and encourages more individual hooks (better game health) than camping and mass slugging which the devs are trying to stop by adding more HUD, and things by default.
A killer can still get 2 kills by camping the very first person and then the next, not very skillful at all but goes up in mmr. I also dont think a survivor running a killer for 5 gens and then dies unskillful.
They wont change SBMM, but it doesnt mean there aren't far better ones out there
So, two things: The first is that, if it turns out after the matchmaking portion is fixed that the system still needs work, I would agree that getting a high emblem score (including individual hook actions!) should result in you going up further for a win, but I would still contend that looking at wins is still the thing that should happen. You shouldn't go up in MMR after losing, that'd be completely counterintuitive, so when looking at large batches of matches it's simply most convenient and pretty accurate to look at a simple win/loss ratio.
That might be moot, though- I have no reason to disbelieve the explanation we've been given, so it seems to me like the problems come from the matching portion, not the MMR calculation portion.
Second: The person who gets two kills by camping first of all doesn't actually go up, that's breaking even. But if they did go up, they should go up, because they're getting kills and should be going up against survivors who can handle what they're bringing a little better. It's not a reward, it's putting them against opponents who are capable of handling them.
The survivor who runs the killer for five gens and then dies isn't doing that every match- either it's a fluke against a bad/struggling killer that they can't replicate en masse, or it's a tactic they try often and therefore should be judged on their success rate overall. It's not about one game, it's about how consistently you win or lose.
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The problem with basing the MMR on hooks - beyond the fact that basing it on kills works perfectly adequately - is that the killer is fundamentally not in control of how many hooks they get.
Even if we put aside the idea of people suiciding on hook, which we shouldn't because that would absolutely happen more if salty survivors knew they were messing with the MMR system in doing so, there are other reasons why you may not get 12 hooks in a good game. Survivors trying to make a kobe happen and failing, disorganised teams not going for saves in time, heck, even just a very close and well played game that results in one or more survivors dying on first/second hook at the endgame.
The MMR adjustment after a single game isn't supposed to be an exhaustively accurate measure of your skill, because there are far too many variables and flukes that can happen for that. It's supposed to measure your skill over a large batch of games, and looking at the end result of the match is a perfectly adequate way of doing that- do you win more often than you lose? If so, your MMR should probably go up so you face opponents who are more skilled at stopping that from happening. Do you lose more often than you win? Your opponents are probably too skilled for you, and you should go down until they aren't.
There are problems with the game's balance that hamper this, of course, but... those things are still problems with the game's balance completely separate from the MMR and would need to be fixed anyway.
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@ThiccBudhha said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2781641#Comment_2781641
Lady D is better than Mr. X. Who cares about what fits? Nobody would buy a lame Mr. X skin. Everyone would simp for our giantess. Facts. 🙏
Listen, I agree, but you know there'd be some people bitching about how unfitting the power is for her if they did it.
It'd still be the first cosmetic I ever actually buy, though.
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That'd be pretty neat.
Ideally, I'd want a Lady D skin that reskins the zombies into enemies from that game, but... power still probably wouldn't fit that well, so it's probably not that likely.
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I think OP means specifically crawling out of the exit gate, not crawling in general. As in, if you're in the dying state, the exit gate is blocked for you a la Blood Warden.
Could make for a fine perk, but I don't think it should be baseline.
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The role of killer is always going to be more stressful than the role of survivor, even if the game reached some hypothetical perfect balance state- you're the one player who has to outplay four others, when survivors at least have the knowledge that there's three other players who could be advancing towards the win state.
It's part of what you're signing up for when you play killer. Survivors are always going to have tools to evade you, and them using those tools will always put you on the back foot temporarily- the problem right now is how many of those tools they have and how far onto the back foot you're pushed, not that it happens at all.
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I doubt it was that explicit, but they probably do craft their perks and buffs with an eye towards how much interplay with other facets of the game there is.
I'd also not necessarily call this a bad thing, other than how abusable Boil Over is right now. Taking abusing certain map spots out of the equation, that just means a currently useless perk might actually see some value, if you're lucky.
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Clown is C tier. C for Chad.
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The current information we have is that they're looking into it and aim to hopefully have it fixed sometime early next week- at this point, two days from now.
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I like them, honestly. Maybe they'll get annoying over time, but they're pretty fun right now.
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Not really- Dead Hard is strong, and even its intended effect is pretty nice, but it's not in the realms of BT/DS/UB where it covers for an actual need in the match. If any of those perks got nerfed (or nerfed further in the case of DS), then maybe, but just straight utility perks like Dead Hard aren't necessary in the least.
I don't run it myself and I'm a pretty rubbish survivor, but I'm not at a gigantic deficit for it. I've been doing adepts for all the survivors I own as something of a training ground for playing survivor in general, and any time where DH would've come in useful was a time that I messed up and would've been bailed out by the dodge- contrast to the multiple times I've been hard tunnelled off the hook, or camped and farmed by a teammate without BT. Those weren't mistakes I made, and the corresponding perks wouldn't have bailed me out, they'd have countered that tactic being used.
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@Junylar said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2779192#Comment_2779192
- Oh no, that Bubba is facecamping our teammate, what can we do?!
- Jeez, are you new? Just slam 'em gens and begone, what else can you do!
- Oh no, that Bubba has NOED!
- Jeez, are you new? That was your fault for slamming 'em gens, you should've vacuum cleaned the whole map in search of all 5 totems instead of rushing gens, obviously! Oh, survivors these days...
The difference between those two things, of course, being that the Bubba facecamping is actually a problem with the game and would ideally be addressed without hampering legitimate players, and NOED is pretty much fine.
To the topic of the thread: I think that's a false equivalence, and NOED doesn't need to be nerfed anyway. If it does get reworked, it'd ideally to be making it more consistently useful, since right now in my eyes it's an aggressively mediocre perk that doesn't do that much even when it activates, which isn't a guarantee.