jesterkind
jesterkind
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2801911#Comment_2801911
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2801918#Comment_2801918
These are both true, but they have been very adamant about not doing any game health updates when they are sorely needed. It would be more appropriate to ask them to delay a chapter's killer/survivor release to do a game health chapter, but that is something they have stated they are unwilling to do.
So we just end up with arguibly the most important priority remaining on the backburner for literal years and people are getting more frustrated the longer it festers.
Considering how the community reacted to the actual game health midchapter recently, I doubt that would actually change the community's mind on things at all.
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I should make that meme, the "don't make me tap the sign" one.
It'd read "The balance team and the cosmetics team are totally separate and the work of one doesn't take resources from the other".
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Hard agree! I don't think it would be that difficult, and I'd love to fly some trans flag colours on my characters while I'm playing.
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While you're not necessarily wrong, I somewhat doubt the impact is going to be that big?
This was already only a thing against soloq players, and it's also already a thing that sometimes happens anyway- if you're chasing the obsession everyone already knows that you're in a chase and that they don't have to check their surroundings, and there's a number of info perks in the game that can tip people off already.
It'll be slightly worse, but bluntly, it's acceptable collateral. The change is still a good one, and adjustments can be made from there to bring things in line again.
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Huh, I've never heard of the aim dressing doing the two things that you laid out there- usually it's just correcting your camera into an object so you miss the attack, those two things sound much worse.
That being said, I would like to see them experiment with turning aim dressing off. It really seems like it's doing more harm than good, but maybe seeing it turned off for a bit would prove otherwise.
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I honestly don't think that this aspect of Dead Hard is that much of a problem, and let me explain why.
Currently, Dead Hard does two major things: It lets you dodge a hit when the killer's on you or when you get outplayed at a loop, and it lets you reset a chase by dashing to a loop that you otherwise wouldn't have reached.
The first part of this is what the perk is intended for- both to be a little safety net on a timer, and to let you play more aggressive and ballsy as is befitting of the character who has it as a teachable. This is, in concept, a totally legitimate thing for a perk to do; it's an exhaustion perk and it can be played around by the killer via baiting it out. There's an argument to be had about how badly affected the killer is when a hit is dodged like that, but I'd argue that problem lays with how much of a time deficit the killer is under right now- slow the game down and one dodged hit every ~40 seconds really wouldn't be that big of a deal.
The second part... isn't. It's uncounterable, it's far stronger, and in my opinion, it's the part that should change. At least when a hit is dodged at a loop, you're still directly on top of the survivor and they don't get that much distance so you can try and make a play- especially as a killer with any ranged capability. When used for distance, especially as any killer that isn't Huntress or Deathslinger, there's nothing that you can do about it.
It's okay for perks to fix survivor mistakes if that fix isn't too strong and it isn't that often- survivors are the role that can be removed from the match entirely, it's good design to give them more tools for fixing mistakes, but Dead Hard does a pretty strong version of that and an even stronger chase utility half.
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Probably either Plague or Wraith. While Wraith suffers in the strength department in general, he's got a genuinely useful suite of addons that provide a pretty varied set of playstyles, he's a lot better in that regard than a lot of other killers.
Nowadays, I'd also probably say that's true of Trapper- they're not quite as varied in terms of playstyle, but very few of them are useless and he's no longer beholden to always bringing a bag addon so there is some variety.
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I think the existence of 3-gen scenarios is fine, generally speaking. It's not a secret that holding M1 and occasionally hitting Space on generators isn't exactly the most thrilling part of the game, so I think having a level of strategy be required to make sure you're not putting yourself in a 3-gen scenario if you can possibly avoid it is totally legitimate.
It's also a catchup mechanic for a killer who might have been doing poorly- not a particularly crazy one since it's far from impossible to win even in the worst 3-gens you can imagine, but it helps provide a little more push-and-pull for the flow of a trial.
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@kate_best_girl said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2801348#Comment_2801348
Okay but by the time they cleanse and find NOED someones already downed and hooked. What then?
...Then NOED isn't in the game anymore and it's solely down to other factors? I buy that saving is difficult while NOED is up, but when it isn't up anymore then saving becomes the normal difficulty.
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@Faulds said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2801348#Comment_2801348
NOED doesn't need its core nature to be changed... only its activation requirement: cause it is that requirement that makes it feel unfair for survivors, and makes it inconsistent for killers.
It's core nature isn't actually that good, and while it may feel unfair to survivors, it isn't unfair at all.
What makes it inconsistent is that it gives a pretty alright effect at a time when you're at a huge time disadvantage to actually make use of it- the fact that it can be prevented from ever activating doesn't actually come into it at all, though the fact that it can be deactivated does. Making it less reliable by making it even more possible for it to never activate at all is not the right call.
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@kate_best_girl said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2801324#Comment_2801324
Well thats the thing is if survivors focus on cleansing then you get two kills either way since by the time the one on hook dies, realistically they won't have all gens done, AND all totems snuffed. NOED is a tie guarantee hence why people don't like it.
...If NOED is active, all the generators are done?
I'm not talking about cleansing all five dull totems, I've mentioned above that I think that's not especially realistic, I'm talking about cleansing the one that lights up when NOED activates.
@Faulds said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2801324#Comment_2801324
I think, if NOED wasn't a hex and required the killer to hook all four survivors once before the fifth gen pops: even if then NOED would be permanent... the killer would have to actively work for it. If you're hit by it, it'd be by a killer that worked for it all game. It wouldn't feel that unfair. That's what current NOED lacks. Now its all down to RNG.
That would hit the problem I outlined a few messages ago- that would just weaken the current effect by making it harder to acquire, in the name of arbitrarily making the killer "earn" actually having their perk active. Not every perk needs that kind of activation requirement, if you're going to change NOED then change it all the way, no half measures.
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Interesting read! I have... a lot of notes. I'll tackle them in the order you laid out your points, for consistency...
1: I agree in broad strokes that facecamping and hard tunnelling off hook are not particularly fun and should be addressed- luckily, the devs seem to be wanting to address both of these, so there is light at the end of the tunnel (pun not intended) there. My notes are that the story you used as evidence of the tunnelling problem didn't... seem to contain any tunnelling, since the killer actively left you alone and went off to presumably go do other things between chasing/downing you, and that I think your suggestion regarding hooks would be better suited in a competitor for Dead By Daylight rather than a change to the game itself.
All games have flaws and limitations that they won't ever overcome, and that's just the reality of it. Maybe that idea would make for a better game than DBD is! But, at least in my opinion, making dramatic fundamental changes to your game like that is something to be done very lightly, and not just because there is a flaw that exists. It could work, with very careful tweaking, but it's extremely far away from necessary and I'd rather see what we have honed a little further - even if it's just doing that first before considering dramatic changes to hooks.
2: Harkening back to #1, it is at least a good sign that the developers seem to agree both that perks like BT are too necessary not to be basekit, and that a lot of solo perks can be replaced with SWF communication. I do think you're a little too liberal in what perks you consider to be necessary (DS is nice but not necessary, also both DS and BT are anti-tunnel perks, not anti-camping perks? Minor point though), and there is always going to be room for solo information perks because not everyone can play with friends on comms, but in the broad strokes you're right that the current meta is as entrenched as it is because some perks just alter the game far too much.
I do think a better fix is to make those perks less necessary by altering base gameplay rather than just removing them, or even rather than just nerfing them, but I'm not quite sure if you agree with that or not- bit unclear.
3: So, literally and not as a gotcha- how on earth would they benefit from maliciously making cheating worse? What possible motive could they have to even want to? I don't want to be mean, but this is an extremely silly thing to say.
4: I have a lot to say about this one, so I'm gonna break it up into a couple of subcategories here...
4a: An MMR system is not inherently competitive, and the fact that DBD's system takes a pretty broad and loose view of skill brackets would hint to me that it's not trying to be a competitive one. I suspect that, to use Overwatch as an example arbitrarily, people hear "MMR" and they think of the ranked mode, without realising that Quick Play uses MMR too. It's just a tool to sort players in a matchmaking queue, there's nothing inherently competitive about it- even party games don't want to match people of wildly different skill levels together.
4b: I'm not sure why you think it's some arbitrary executive decision- people complained incessantly about how bad the emblem system was for matchmaking, and rightly so- it was genuinely unfit for purpose. What would you assume the devs would replace it with other than a standard, normal matchmaking system?
4c: If all you see is "working as intended" or "more fair matches", then as gently as I can, that's kind of on you? In the most recent QnA stream, the devs very publicly admitted the part of the MMR system that doesn't work and have said that they're working on a fix to it. You're right that the implementation of the MMR system has been very flawed, and that it currently doesn't work- but that's because of the matchmaking portion prioritising speed over accuracy, not because a system like this never could work. The part that I really want to hone in on here though is that it's not been radio silent and there has been indication that it's being improved. Whether you believe that or not is up to you, but the one thing you can't claim is that they haven't said anything about it.
4d: If "fair" matches (though based on what I've explained I'd call it more "equal skill matches", something like that) are unfun and undesirable, that's not a point against the MMR system- that problem doesn't go away simply because you get to stomp on some newbies every other match. It's a problem with the core balance of the game, and it is a problem, but it's not fixed by changing the matchmaking system.
In conclusion... I don't think I do agree that the game's on weak legs and that it's been getting worse. The game's actually been improving over the past year or so, even if it stumbles a little here and there.
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@kate_best_girl said:
I'd say because it mimics what most Identity V matches are like. Identity V has a perk called 'Detention' which mimics classic NOED. For 120 seconds the killer can insta down anyone. And so most games of IDV go like this,
-Hunter finds someone
-Hunter downs and 'hooks' someone
-All ciphers (gens) go by
-Hunter goes and downs another survivor
-Survivors are forced to leave and let that survivor die
-Tie
This is what makes NOED unfair. It rewards face camping.
The endgame rewards facecamping in general, and NOED is actively weaker if you facecamp since it gives the survivors time to go cleanse the totem. If you get a hook near the totem and facecamp, survivors have no reason not to just leave. NOED is already very inconsistent, but facecamping with it practically guarantees you'll get one kill and that's it- not even that if the survivors are good.
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@Faulds said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2801260#Comment_2801260
Wait... so, you're not against a rework for NOED. Do you have proposals?
Nah, nothing off the top of my head. I saw in the past that it used to have a STBFL type effect, something like that might not be the worst idea- though it might encourage facecamping even more and it definitely wouldn't be good enough on its own, so probably not.
It categorically shouldn't be weaker or harder to acquire/make use of, but its current effect is just too lacklustre. When I say rework, I do not mean putting a token system or a stricter activation requirement on its current effect. Different effect, or nothing.
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@sludgeraptor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2797578#Comment_2797578
Excuse me if I'm repeating points since I didn't read through all 7 pages, but the thing about NOED is that, as others have pointed out, its only activation condition is the killer existing. They don't have to play the game; hell, there's an entire genre of YouTube and Twitch content that's just people AFKing as strong killers and then returning after the last gen pops to roll the survivors with NOED. That is the main issue with NOED, and why people don't complain about perks like, say, Devour Hope, which have a similar effect - Devour Hope forces killer gameplay to work and NOED needs....nothing. That is deeply unsatisfying to go against for many people. Maybe not you, but many people. I personally have been against killers faking AFK so they can try this multiple times! It is surprisingly common (though a bit less since MMR came into play), and also, if I may editorialise a bit, very annoying! Why should the killer be able to do something like this? How is the fact that you can refuse to play the game and potentially get rewarded for it not in and of itself a massive sign of poor design/"unfairness"?
To address the point about other instadowns: every other instadown in this game either has some kind of condition requiring killer input to activate it, a cooldown, is on a timer, has some kind of drawback or is difficult to use, or multiple/all of the above. When an Oni/Hillbilly/Ghostface/etc instadowns me, yeah, fair play. They did something, they should get rewarded for the effort they put in. If I get camped to death by a Tier III Myers, then yeah, you're right, that's just how the game goes sometimes! Some killer abilities or perks make it hard to save, especially in an endgame scenario, and that's alright. They still had to earn whatever instadown was used to get me on the hook in the first place, though, or, in the case of Haunted Grounds, there's a definitive timer after which it will be safe to save. On the other hand, when I'm in chase with a killer, instadown or no, and they suddenly use their speed boost to down me because I was unlucky enough to be the guy stuck in chase with them when the last gen pops, that feels bad. Especially if you're unlucky enough to be hooked right on their NOED, or you're playing solo so you can't call out totem positions, or any number of other unfortunate circumstances. In the end, it's a perk based almost entirely on luck and not skill for both sides, which is bad design, IMO.
In the end, is it OP? No. Not at all. Annoying, maybe, especially if your luck is bad, but not OP. Is it poorly designed? Yes, very. It's a relic of design that really needs a rework of some kind, or at least to warn survivors the second they're exposed so they can react accordingly.
I'm a killer main who vastly prefers playing killer, BTW, so this isn't me being salty or anything. I rarely run into NOED because I never run it on my killers and I rarely play survivor. It's still pretty blatantly flawed as a perk no matter what perspective you come at it from, though, since half the time, as you yourself have pointed out, NOED won't even do anything for the killer. It is in desperate need of some kind of rework so that it can be more fun for everyone involved.
So, just to set the scene to make sure I don't accidentally imply something I don't mean: I am fully on board with NOED getting a rework. Not a nerf, not just putting even more conditions on its effect to make it even harder to actually make use of (no token system, it's already a bad perk that doesn't do all that much), but something where it's fully redesigned to fill its design niche more effectively. Fully on board, that'd be a great change!
I do have some objections to your argument, though. I fully understand that running the killer fairly well and being smacked with NOED the second that it activates because you were just unlucky enough to be the first guy hit with it is annoying, but what I don't understand is why that's somehow indicative of bad design when it can happen through a myriad of other methods-- what if you happen to be in a chase when the third Devour save happens, or when one of your teammates procs Haunted Grounds? I get that in the abstract it might feel unfair because it's one of the perks in the game that just does something instead of having a requirement (not inherently bad design, plenty of perks just have a static effect without need for killer input), but realistically it is exactly the same and it's not as though that's the game, it can be cleansed again afterwards.
You point out that NOED is kinda dated, that it often doesn't do anything for the killer, and that overall it could use a rework, and on those points I absolutely agree. What it's supposed to do is a great concept and I love that it's a universal perk instead of a teachable, but it just doesn't effectively do more than a single down unless you're lucky enough to be facing lemming survivors or lucky enough to be able to defend a hook and the totem at once- but even in the latter scenario that's a single kill because the other survivors would just leave. The only thing I'm contesting is that it's somehow cheap or poorly designed from the angle of not requiring killer input, because that's also true of plenty of other perks.
But yes- it could do with a redesign to make it more consistently useful. That I definitely agree with, and I'm sure most reworks would make it less annoying for survivors too.
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I have to disagree. I wouldn't necessarily call Bloodhound a good perk (though its effect is noticeable and quite nice, it just doesn't outweigh the utility given by other perks), but it's really far from the worst.
Perks that give you extremely little effect (Unrelenting, Monstrous Shrine) or that actively make things worse for you (Predator) would be better picks for the worst.
In a hypothetical version of the game where you aren't quite as heavily incentivised to run slowdown perks, Bloodhound would be a nice off-meta tracking perk, and a very nice tool for helping newer players track blood on the ground.
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I got mine and I've been seeing a few other people talk about getting theirs, so they are being given out. Just a case of waiting, unfortunately.
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@qwirtee said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2799988#Comment_2799988
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/8SJ4LUJW91S4/image.png
Im quite sure it says changed to *give* 33% wiggle progress.
"Give" 33% of your CURRENT wiggle progress. Before, it gave 25% of your TOTAL wiggle bar. Now it gives you more depending on how long you've been wiggling for, and gives basically nothing if the killer drops straight away.
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@Wiggles_Diggles said:
Personally I would love to see Fiddlesticks from League.
At the same time I wouldn’t want to see people from League playing this game. Most people already cry a lot about tbagging just imagin what would happen.
Imagine Jinx and Vi from their Arcane incarnation as survivors/survivor skins, though... I'd buy that in a heartbeat.
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Homestuck chapter. Vriska Serket as the survivor, maybe no associated killer but a bunch of legendary skins- Hillbilly genderbent to Kanaya Maryam, Oni gets a Grand Highblood, Spirit gets a Damara Megido, etc etc.
Alternately, I want a Hellblazer paragraph but that one actually is possible. Not likely, but possible.
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Very pleased to see that myself, too. Good change!
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Honestly, no, I don't. It's not like, a required or necessary thing, and I'd rather see the main mode spruced up and improved.
What I would like to see is a more robust custom games system, so those who want novelty can play with some mates and change a bunch of rules without it needing to be balanced as a proper public game mode.
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My current assumption is that this'll be primarily a graphics overhaul, and they're gonna tweak a few balance things while they're in there. Presumably we'll see something for some of the more problematic houses and hopefully something for the fences.
Honestly, people meme on breakable walls, but a few smartly placed breakable walls in the taller fences actually would be a good idea. Preserves the narrow choke point for killers that can capitalise on it, but gives the ability for killers who can't to make that area more mindgame-able.
Visually, I'm hoping they don't change it dramatically- it's not like Coldwind or Gideon's where those maps looked awful and now look far, far better, this one already has a nice balance of darkness and contrast so it's still possible to see things on it. Ideally I'd like to see more detail inside the houses, they've always felt a bit barren to me.
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The matchmaking is broken, it's been acknowledged, nobody is claiming that it's fair.
Slinger is a separate issue, but while rest assured I also think he's in a poor spot, he did very obviously need work done.
Cosmetic teams and balance teams aren't the same people, it's not a priority issue- they could drag all the cosmetic team off to help on balance, but they'd be useless because that isn't their job and they don't know how to do it.
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If this is what counts as a "pig nerf", then suddenly all those really confusing jokes about continually nerfing Pig when that wasn't happening make a little bit more sense.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2798393#Comment_2798393
Disagree.
A Killer side objective was not what people had been asking for nor does it make sense in the current state of the game.
Likewise, MMR will never work correctly in it's current form. If you want perfectly balanced matches, you'd wait in outrageous queues as Survivor. If you want bad matches (current system), you can wait in 10 minute queues for Survivor and instant queues for Killer.
If you define boon totems in concept as being a killer side objective, sure. That isn't really what they're supposed to be, though- and see again, the implementation is flawed but the idea is sound.
As for MMR, hard to tell. If they can't fix the current issues with queue times, sure, they'll have to figure something else out, but once again: flawed implementation, solid idea. People wanted a better matchmaking system for ages and this is what that should be if they can iron out the current issues. Absolutely no reason to assume it "will never work", either way.
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@GuyFawx said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2798049#Comment_2798049
Ok I dont know why but this just hit me in the feels this one wins an award lol
All credit to Justin McElroy who I totally stole that quote from lmao
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I have to agree. Even in cases were the implementation was flawed, like boons and MMR, the overall ideas were good and the state of the game has unambiguously improved a lot.
It's nice to acknowledge the progress sometimes!
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...I'm not sure we agree, I'm saying that kills are the killer's goal, NOT hooks. This is just a poorly worded tooltip talking about bloodpoint gains from the hook action.
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Yeah, that tooltip is referring to the primary way that you have to complete your goal, which is to kill survivors. I believe the tutorial clarifies this a lot more clearly, though it's been a little while since I went and did it.
Not the most clearly worded loading tip ever, but the killer's primary goal is and always has been to kill the survivors, and hooking is being used as shorthand here since it's the primary method of doing it.
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The man who sleeps with a machete is a fool every night but one.
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Huntress: Whenever you gain the Undetectable status effect, your Lullaby radius covers the entire map. You gain the Undetectable status effect when reloading for 30 seconds.
(Replaces both the Soldier's Putee and the Wooden Fox; the former becomes a brown rarity addon and the latter is reworked entirely.)
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Based on what we know, the system itself is fine, the problem is that the matching portion starts widening the parameters too far when it's put under any kind of time-related stress, be it from long queues or from backfilling lobbies. I don't see any reason to abandon the portion that ostensibly works because of that.
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@HagIsBestGirl said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2794472#Comment_2794472
As a survivor it feels really, really bad to run a killer for 3-5 gens (a skillful play) and have the game taken from you because, after a long run, the killer finally got their lucky hit.
The folks calling that a free win are likely inarticulate, or upset. The large amount of pressure for lowered opportunity cost is what makes the perk feel bad to be hit with.
By the same token, I believe your insistence on not understanding the various, top-level arguments on this topic disingenuous, and I believe you asked this question in bad faith.
How is the game "taken from you", though? All NOED does is give the killer a slightly cheaper (not free, but closer to free) down, the game isn't over just because you get downed after the last generator popped. Especially in the scenario you described where you've likely not even been hooked yet- your team have a ton of time to find the totem, cleanse it, and go for a save.
And if they just leave... replace that scenario with the killer having an instadown through any other means. Is it the fault of the instadown, or just how the game goes sometimes? You don't always get saved in the endgame, that's just how it is.
I promise that I'm not being disingenuous, I just find that the various top-level arguments here aren't convincing. Many of them rely on an unchallenged assertion that I just don't agree with, which is why I made this thread to begin with- I wanted to probe at those assertions and see if I could make them make sense. So far, no dice.
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I think it's a little bit disingenuous, intentionally or otherwise, to act as though this is setting a precedent where bad actors can get things removed from the game to punish legitimate players.
That framing ignores the fact that a lot of people had very legitimate reasons to be uncomfortable with Smartface, and debate about it had been ongoing for a long while before the most recent batch of bad actors partaking in targeted harassment and abuse towards players and streamers. Those two things combined make a very compelling case for removing the masks.
My own personal take is kinda twofold. On the one hand, I do think that a better solution would have been to replace all four masks with some other unlockable cosmetic that sidesteps the problematic aspects of old Smartface. On the other... there's no earthly way that solution would've been fast enough, so I do respect the pressure to just do the quick and less pleasant thing to deal with the problem ASAP. Who knows, maybe they'll introduce some other unlockable cosmetic later on down the line...
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The good thing about Killer is that a lot of the information perks are genuinely really good, so it's not an easy pick. I'm also gonna follow the trend for Killer and say BBQ, though- knowing where to go after a hook is nice, and extra bloodpoints is nice, what's not to like.
For Survivor, absolutely Deja Vu. Criminally underrated perk, constantly knowing not only where a generator is but where the 3-gen would be is very very useful. During my bout of doing Adepts, I also found Alert to be more useful than I thought it would be, so I'd like to highlight that.
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@BenZ0 said:
it is not really a good perk nor meta, it is just unfun and boring.
It requires no effort or brain to use it, its just a second chance that kinda undoes your mistake just like dead hard.
Thats why I dont use it, I dont need a crutch, perks like Pop, Pain resonance, No way out, Ruin etc are much more fun and healthier perks, they all require you to do something to get value out of it and the reward feeling of it is just amazing. However you dont have such reward feeling on noed, its just for salty baby killers that try desperately to get kills which is just sad, a perk like that shouldnt exist.
Genuine question: What is the mistake that gets undone by NOED?
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@SmarulKusia said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2794797#Comment_2794797
Again, this is a personal opinion, and I'll allow you to have it. But personally, I believe that Windows IS a bad perk because of it's coddling aspect. No need to debate this though, as this is nothing more than difference of opinion.
As for your second point, I mean.. It truly can. A bad player doesn't have to be someone who loses the chase with not even a hit on the survivor, often times that I play against killers that I think aren't confident in chase, they'll leave me injured. But they leave me because of their inability to actually secure the down on me. NOED removes the bridge between chasing a healthy survivor and having to down them - by completely obliterating the stage in between - which is the injured state. As we've acknowledged, getting the initial hit is also fairly easy when assisted by a speedboost.
The counter argument of the perk being deactivated exists, and I acknowledge that the perk does have counter-play. But this counterplay pre-dominantly exists in the realm of SWF, and not necessarily solo-queue.
I won't lie to you, my MMR isn't the best, I'm someone who has a long history of DCing and I've somewhat ruined my MMR because of it, so I recognise that I'm playing in a lower skill bracket than what I'm supposed to be, so I know what high and low MMR games roughly look like. Let me tell you, that solo-q is god awful. I have a vivid memory of a recent game, the killer couldn't catch me, but I took my sweet time engaging in the chase to give my teammates time to do generators. Whenever I was out of chase, I would look for bones or finish a generator that survivors were taken off. I think I failed to find 1-2 totems in the trial, when we hit end-game. Long and behold, NOED. I think the killer secured about 3 kills with that NOED as he hooked the initial survivor right by where the NOED totem was.
If you are looking at the balancing of NOED through the lens of SWF, or at least a party that can communicate - sure, NOED becomes easier to play around. But when you are looking through the lens of, I can't communicate with my teammates, i have NO idea what they've done throughout the trial - it becomes a different story.
Not to mention, as I've briefly said, NOED is an end-game perk, by the time that you reach end-game, most pallets and tiles that were safe to run, are no longer there to run.
Yes, a bad killer can get a down with NOED, but a bad killer will also flounder and get flustered after that point, which is the point at which you'd be looking at countering it. When I brought up that it's one of the most counterable perks in the game, I brought up the other part of its counterplay that you glossed over- you can deactivate it after it's lit up.
I'm not talking about SWF here- I don't have the luxury of knowing firsthand what playing in a SWF is like, I exclusively play solo when I play survivor. I am talking about playing alone, and if it's a bad killer like you're describing, there's no reason why NOED can't be found, deactivated, and then the killer outplayed again when you go in for a save. Alternately, just leave while the killer's hooking their one down, a single kill is still a loss and NOED didn't actually do that much for the killer.
You do not need to cleanse all five totems. The lack of communication is irrelevant- you don't need to know what your teammates are doing to remember where the dulls are and go check them. In fact, your anecdote explains why that's the better tactic- if you don't have means of ensuring you can get all five, it's actively harder to properly counter NOED when it procs.
In that anecdote, by the way- if the first survivor was hooked by the NOED totem, how on earth did that killer get any more downs...? Presumably they didn't leave that spot, so the only way they could get more downs is if the other survivors ran into them, which is hardly a case for NOED being OP.
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@SmarulKusia said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/309118/what-exactly-makes-noed-unfair
The reason that NOED is a bad perk - is the same reason that Technician, or Windows are bad perks. They coddle the player too much, where the player is discouraged to actively learn and overcome their weaknesses.
The killer's objective, and gameplay is literally to hunt and hook survivors - with the main goal being to secure the kills. Riddle me this, if you are a good killer, who can secure 1-2 kills before all generators are finished and then secure another or the remaining survivors, what is the need for NOED?
You've utilised the necessary skills to the fullest, and were awarded for it. The presence of NOED, would then become redundant - because you are achieving your goal, whilst also stopping some of the players from even reaching end-game. Same way that if you know the lay-out of tiles, a perk like Windows becomes redundant because you already know where you have to go for the next pallet/window - or better yet, technician becomes completely useless when you've gotten accustomed to hitting skill checks because it's value is completely deteriorated. You only rely on those perks if you aren't fully confident either in your ability to navigate the map in a chase, or in hitting skill checks and until you remove those perks - you will truly never become a better player because what is the reason for it?
I hope you're on the same page as me, up to this point. Imagine if the devs released a perk - that punished you for achieving your objective. Let's say that a resurrect perk existed in the game, we don't have to go deep into the mechanics, but the basic outline is that you can bring a player back from the dead. Would feel awful, knowing that you worked hard chasing that player, securing the kill and then to be punished by a perk that undoes your work - adding more conditions to a game that you felt like you were winning. It would be cheap, and cheated if they were to escape as they didn't deserve to. You outplayed them throughout the trial, and put all you had to secure the 'win', only for it to be undone by a singular perk.
Now flip it onto NOED. You could've ran several chases with the killer, won every single one. Never gotten hooked. Challenged the killer on their gen pressure by completing generators, saving your teammates to ensure that they can see the end of the trial too. You're nearing the completion of the last generator, you pop it, and then you're smacked with NOED. A game that had 0-2 hooks throughout the whole trial has now turned upside down to a singular perk, with you teammates dying on hooks. A game that should've been a 4-man escape, due to the skill gap between those survivors and killer, has now turned into a 2-3 kill game. The killer did very little to deserve those downs, and relied on the survivors to complete THEIR objective so that he can be awarded with a cheap perk.
The perk doesn't only insta-down, but it tilts a pre-existing advantage even further in the killer's favour by having a speedboost, making looping for the survivor dangerous especially if pallets have been used already.
You're not a good player, or becoming a better player if you are conditioning a reliance on a perk.
Whew, there's a lot to this one...
Okay, first challenged assertion: Windows of Opportunity is not a bad perk, nor is it a training wheels perk. It gives you more information than just pallet spawns- it shows you which pallets have been dropped by teammates, which breakable walls have been kicked, and what pallets you actually have available. Technician I'll grant you, but it's not really a bad perk because it's a training wheels perk, it's... just kind of a bad perk in general, it's not even that useful for players who are still learning.
Second, I absolutely have to challenge the idea that a game with 0-2 hooks can be turned around by NOED if the skill gap actually is that intense. Remember that the perk has among the most counterplay in the game, it can be prevented from ever activating and it can be deactivated once it does, and it still requires the killer to win a chase- even if it makes chases slightly easier to win by giving a speed boost.
If the killer actually isn't good, what's the excuse for the perk not being disabled and the killer once again outplayed once that buff is removed from them? I absolutely buy that a good killer can snowball the one or two downs NOED gives you into a victory, but I don't buy for a second that a bad killer can in the way you're describing. NOED simply isn't that powerful, even while it's active, and there's no reason it should be active for that long unless a survivor team are running into it like lemmings.
Lastly, I have to disagree that the game you're describing "should" have been a 4-man escape. Games turn around in the endgame all the time without NOED, the game is not won just because the last generator popped.
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@Junylar said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2794577#Comment_2794577
Where did they ever say they are working on a fix? All I heard was the legendary comparison of DbD with hockey and "if you run the killer for 5 gens and then get facecamped to death, was it really a skilled play?". Doesn't sound like they are "working on a fix" to me.
...Yeah, bud, that's your fault. If you hadn't been so blinded by your irrational anger, you would've heard them talk about how the matching portion of the MMR system gets too lax in situations of long wait times or backfilling someone who leaves a lobby, which is what leads to the problems everyone's been facing.
Like, they very much did just literally say they're working on it. You don't even have to read between the lines or anything.
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@Faulds said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2794686#Comment_2794686
It doesn't change the fact that survivors can't coordinate every game "until the end" to cleanse all totems and get five gens done. Still doesn't change that fact. Its like saying previous ds was fine because "you could just go to someone else for one minute".
Right, but again, you don't have to cleanse all the totems. That isn't necessary for countering NOED, it's just an option you have if you want to for whatever reason.
I agree with you! Expecting solo survivors to cleanse all five totems every game isn't reasonable. But nothing is actually making them do that because NOED lights up like any other hex when the last generator is done.
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@Faulds said:
NOED is unfair to solo q players that can't coordinate to do 5 gens and five totems every game. Bloodwarden is a one minute endgame perk/ No Way Out is a one minute endgame perk... NOED should be the same.
The reason NOED isn't on a timer is because it can be shut off within seconds of it activating, though. You don't have to do all five totems, you just can if you feel that would be worth your time.
Otherwise, you deactivate it once it is revealed to you.
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@GrimReaperJr1232 said:
NOED is an endgame perk but compared to other endgame perks, getting it to proc requires no input from the killer.
NWO, for instance, requires you to hook all 4 survivors to get max value.
Remember Me requires you to hit the Obsession 4 times.
Blood Warden requires you to get a hook after EGC has already started.
NOED is: if 5 gens pop and 1 of 5 totems is still standing, you get a power up.
And that's another thing. Countering NOED is unrealistic. There are 5 totems; finding all 5 for a single perk that MIGHT be there is extremely time consuming, and in games where a match comes down to the last precious seconds, it's not feasible to do all 5 in time.
Another issue is the gameplay it encourages. If it's endgame, then your only objective is securing your kills. So... camping the hook with NOED is all the killer has. And if you're hooked next to NOED, then you're dead; it's basically the same as getting face camped by Bubba.
So I definitely would like to point you towards the question I've raised to other people who shared the idea that doing all the totems is unrealistic- why would you assume that it's the only counter, why isn't finding the totem after it procs considered a counter when it's far more realistic and effective?
But I do appreciate the last point for being new- I don't know that I agree, though. If it's endgame, then your only objective is securing kills, so camping the hook is all the killer has. NOED doesn't really come into that beyond being a very, very temporary deterrence from attempting a save until it's cleansed?
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While I agree that this nerf isn't enough to help bring CoH in line, I definitely disagree that it "shows the devs are out of touch". To me, the most accurate read is that, since we already know that perk balance in that patch were restricted to just being value changes due to how much of the team's work was taken up with the other, massively effort-intensive things that they put into that patch, the reason CoH was only nerfed on the axis of the healing speed increase is because they wanted to help ease how OP it is even though they couldn't commit to fully fixing it.
So it's a stopgap, not the only thing they plan on doing with it.
As for your solutions, they're all pretty much bad ideas- either they're restrictions placed solely on CoH which is a reasonable thing to want to avoid, consistency makes mechanics easier to understand, or they're restrictions placed on all boons, which neuters their intended play and utterly ruins the other two that aren't even that strong.
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@Sonzaishinai said:
2 thing that's off with noed's design.
1) the unpredictability. While yes you can counter noed by cleansing/remembering the spots of all totems, the thing is that's quite a timeconsuming task and every second you spend is a second the killer comes closer to "point of no return pressure"
Cleansing all totems and losing with a single gen left to see killer didn't have noed is just a feelbad.
If noed had something like "survivor scream and reveal their position whenever they cleanse a dull" would buff it while removing that uncertainty
2) sometimes you don't have time to cleanse all totems, specifically with a facecamping killer
What about the other counters, though? Like going and cleansing it after it activates, by keeping track of where all the dulls are?
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@Junylar said:
Everyone hates the current MMR implementation. Still, it's here for good.
Everyone hates RPD. Still, it's here for good.
Everyone hates stretch res users. Still, they are here for good.
Everyone hates DH and NOED. Still, they are here for good.
Everyone hates SWF. Still, it's here for good.
You can write about it every day, even if every single player would write about it every day, the devs would just ignore it. It's their game and they don't give a single ######### about what the community thinks.
Everyone may hate the current MMR implementation (or more accurately a vocal bunch do) but I've found the majority who do don't actually understand how it works or what it's for. Regardless, the devs have acknowledged the part that's broken and have said they're working on a fix, so what we have clearly isn't "here for good".
Same for DH. They've acknowledged it as a problem and have said they're working on it. Clearly, they're listening.
To the point in OP, that I don't think is going to happen. I wasn't playing when Freddy was his old incarnation, but from what I've seen on old videos and descriptions, I strongly suspect nostalgia goggles are playing a heavy role in why people want that back specifically, instead of improving what we have. He looked... boring as hell?
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@Pulsar said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2794531#Comment_2794531
I've essentially based my opinion off of the stats I've been taking.
I've been running Small Game for nearly 4 months and 300 games. I can show you the data, if you are interested.
NOED had a 20% appearance rate. Of those games, another 20% ended with NOED not adding any additional Kills.
I'm less interested in how often people cleanse all five totems - as that's already not even the ideal counter to NOED - or even in how many kills the killer ended up getting, and more interested in what actually happened in those games.
For example- I've been running NOED myself as an informal sort of experiment, and there was a very interesting game where NOED did activate, and I got three kills when I'd previously been shaping up to get none. It'd be tempting to take that as evidence that NOED gives kills, but in reality, I was playing Trapper and NOED gave me nothing; someone was already injured when NOED activated and I was right on them, so neither half of NOED did anything, and the other two stepped in traps while going for a save, so NOED did nothing there either.
In my experience, NOED does very little. It gives you about one down, maybe two, and then it's either cleansed or people just leave.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2794496#Comment_2794496
We must not play against the same Killers.
The issue with that is that someone is already on the ground when we find out NOED is in play. There is very little chance (unless the Killer is horrible) that they are going to let you cleanse the totem. Likewise, going around the entire map takes time and even if you knew the exact spawns, it could still take you over 30 seconds to find the totem, let alone cleanse it.
As for perk builds, sure. You could take an entire build dedicated to hunting totems. Small Game, Detective's Hunch, Inner Strength and DH? You could do that. But again, you are taking a guess that the next Killer might have NOED.
NOED does not lose it's unhealthy aspect just because you can bring a very specific build to counter it. You can make an entire build to counter Dead Hard as Killer, does that mean DH is fine? Of course not.
I don't mean builds just to counter NOED, I mean builds that give you actual reasons to break totems, using perks like Inner Healing or Clairvoyance to get some benefits.
To your other point, I'm not sure I understand what you mean. If the killer is defending the totem, then you can either go for a save or simply leave, and if the killer isn't defending the totem then you have the opportunity to cleanse? I'd love to hear a little more elaboration on that point so I can better understand it.
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@Gylfie said:
My main issue with it is that you don't know it's in play until someone gets hit. You could be going for an end-game save and suddenly you're down because whoops the killer has NOED and you didn't know. Now you die too because you tried to be a nice teammate.
That, to me, is the only thing that feels unfair about it.
I could see that- the only part that does feel like it might be unfair is that the one guy who gets hit first doesn't have much of a chance to do any of the many things NOED can be countered by.
I would like to challenge the idea that you die because of that, though. Even with two people hooked, the perk can be deactivated and saves can be made-- and if the other two just leave, what did NOED actually do there? It got one down, and then everyone left, since in this scenario the first hook happened before NOED did anything.
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@landromat said:
Game is about Sacrifices and escapes and it suddenly gives killer 1-2 more kills on average. I think you understand how it affects mmr
...Does it, though? In my experience what it does is give 1-2 downs, not kills.