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jesterkind

jesterkind

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jesterkind
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  • @MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2794487#Comment_2794487

    Haunted is also does not need skill but it limited with a minute. And you need to bait survivors to cleanse it, using with other hex totems maybe. So Haunted is not problematic perk or bad design.

    Devour is stronger than NOED and it rewards you for hooks and non-camp gameplay.

    Rancor is giving info to obsession, so you know killer has it and you can play carefully at end game.

    NOED is different. Killer does not need to do anything. Lose generators and get your reward. And survivors does not know you have it before first survivor down. This does not looks me good design, sorry.

    NOED is very often active for about the same amount of time as Haunted, though. Either survivors can just open the gates and leave, or they can go cleanse the lit totem- I've played with NOED myself a fair amount to see how much value it actually gives, and in my experience, the value it gives is typically one down and very occasionally two or three downs, because as soon as it's active someone finds it to cleanse it or everyone leaves.

    It may be a "reward" for "losing generators" (putting those in air quotes because it's pretty loaded framing- matches get into the endgame all the time, it doesn't mean it's a lost game or the killer "failed" to protect the generators, especially in the current state of the game), but the killer is put on a heavy time limit to actually make use of it. Given that and the fact that it can be prevented from ever activating, doesn't that balance it out to better design?

    I still don't love the perk, I'd like to see it reworked to be more consistent, I just don't really see how it's an unfair design.

    in What *Exactly* Makes NOED Unfair? Comment by jesterkind

  • @Pulsar said:

    The intended counter-play to NOED is unrealistic for most Survivor groups.

    Likewise, you are taking a guess that the Killer has NOED. You never know for sure. Cleansing 5 totems is a fairly large time investment, similar to one gen at the bare minimum.

    Additionally, when the Killer isn't terrible and has managed to pressure your team well, but you have the edge when the gens are done, you just lose. There was no opportunity for you to cleanse totems, else you'd have lost the game earlier. That's a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't scenario.

    To top it off, NOED is horrid at it's job. The teams you actually need it against (ie, 4-man squads) can remove it easily, as I've found in my totem experiment. NOED just ends up stomping Solo Q and Duo Q players, whom you shouldn't need it against.

    NOED is a crutch for bad Killers, true, but it's unhealthy because of it's unrealistic counter-play that boosts good Killers to unintended heights and it is clearly a relic of a bygone era.

    I see how that would be the case if the only counterplay for NOED is to hard stop it from ever activating, but that's... not even really the best tactic for going against it?

    You're right, cleansing all five totems is a heck of an undertaking, especially if you're doing it alone, but your argument kind of ignores the fact that you can just take care of NOED after it activates? Just make a note of where the dull totems are as you're playing, and check those if the perk actually does end up being in play. Surely the fact that not only is that a tactic, but also that it's the better tactic, should outweigh the fact that the hard counter is a little more unrealistic? Add onto that the fact that survivors do actually have perk builds that actively incentivise them to cleanse all the totems if that is the tactic they want to take (on top of those same perks making it easier to do), and NOED kinda loses that supposedly unhealthy aspect, surely?

    I'm not talking out my ass here- I play solo survivor and I've done this exact thing myself, and I'm a pretty bad survivor who definitely doesn't have all the totem spawns memorised.

    in What *Exactly* Makes NOED Unfair? Comment by jesterkind

  • @MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2794482#Comment_2794482

    I never said after last generator is finished killer should not get kills. But yeah, NOED kills are not deserved kills. Just bad design.

    Why NOED is issue? Because killer is not doing anything, lose generators and then NOED will activate. This is not skilled play. Remember Me and No Way Out are solid perks. You need hooks for NWO and you need to hit obsession for Remember Me. Both perks are rewarding good plays.

    I think it's a little silly to assume that the killer isn't doing anything, they're probably playing the game normally and just doesn't get everyone killed before the last generator pops.

    There are other perks that give comparable benefits without needing skilled plays, too. Haunted Grounds gives about the same benefit, the killer does nothing to "earn" that Exposed effect, is that one badly designed? If not, what's the difference?

    I don't mean to be aggressive, legitimately- I want to understand why NOED gets called bad design when other similar perks don't.

    in What *Exactly* Makes NOED Unfair? Comment by jesterkind

  • @MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2794472#Comment_2794472

    You lost game, you failed to stop survivors. You should not get kill because of NOED.

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2794470#Comment_2794470

    Help is different. You can use some perks for chase, slowdown, pressure etc. We are talking the perks which rewarding you for your lose. Yeah this is bad design for me.

    Genuine question- do you think Remember Me and No Way Out are also badly designed perks that need to be scrapped? Additionally, would you say that any kill the killer gets after the last generator is finished is unfair and unearned?

    in What *Exactly* Makes NOED Unfair? Comment by jesterkind

  • @MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:

    It is like Dead Hard for me.

    You are winning chase and then survivor is saying "No, bud i have Dead Hard. We will loop more."

    You are winning game and then killer is taking it from you with NOED.

    NOED is bad design. Perks should not reward bad plays. Before i get what aboutism, yeah survivors have Dead Hard and it needs to go as well.

    But how does NOED reward bad plays? The game obviously isn't over just because the last generator popped, the killer isn't being given a "get out of loss free" card, so how does NOED reward bad plays?

    in What *Exactly* Makes NOED Unfair? Comment by jesterkind

  • Demo's perks becoming generic did actually do a lot to help with chase and regression since Jolt and Mindbreaker both aid in that a little bit, and Claustrophobia is... technically a chase perk, albeit not a very good one.

    Killer base perks aren't that bad, though. Thrill of the Hunt is genuinely extremely useful right now, Whispers has always been a good early and late game information perk, Sloppy Butcher is suffering right now due to CoH but is relatively okay otherwise (good target for a buff though), NOED is pretty mediocre but can do work if you play well...

    If you expand that to basic characters (which I'm assuming means free character teachables?) then you have Agitation, Brutal Strength, Tinkerer, Enduring, A Nurse's Calling, Thanatophobia...

    Killers actually have some decent perks without needing to buy new characters and some pretty okay ones without needing teachables at all, in my opinion. Still, there's definitely room for buffs, a lot of them are garbage- that's just also true of the survivor side too.

    in Killer generic/default killer perk buff when? Comment by jesterkind

  • Undying and Thrill of the Hunt, either together or separately, are very good; Undying shows you the aura of anyone trying to bless so you at least know where the boon totem is, and Thrill slows them down by a little bit. Bringing something like Plaything alongside Thrill is a good idea too, since blessing hexes with Thrill active takes almost a full minute and most survivors would rather just break it, which in turn gives them fewer blessing spots. Toss Pentimento in there and you've got a proper anti-boon build.

    When people say "boons" they usually mean Circle of Healing specifically, and that perk is countered by anything that inflicts Broken or Exposed- both things that are pretty worth bringing on their own, so it's a safe bet to pack something that'll let you instadown just in case you come across a team using CoH really efficiently.

    in What perks do killers have to counter BOON? Comment by jesterkind

  • In my view, all Trapper needs is a little more help setting up in the beginning of the match (I'd say making all his traps spawn towards the centre of the map skewed towards him, instead of spread everywhere- no more maps on the opposite side of the map to him), and some future-proofing against brighter maps with less grass like Eyrie of Crows.

    Otherwise, he's in a pretty decent spot, the big balance pass he got somewhat recently really helped.

    in Do you think Trapper needs any more changes? Comment by jesterkind

  • Susie strikes me as the MCR type. Slapping on Black Parade whenever the other Legion members aren't around to tease her for it, perhaps...

    in What would their fav songs be? Comment by jesterkind

  • @Laluzi said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2793302#Comment_2793302

    I understand this, but at the same time, infinitely reblessable totems carry their own problems, because on several maps - really, this is true on any map if you place them smartly, but some are just ubiquitously powerful regardless of the state of the match - there are totem spots that are extremely cumbersome for the killer to reach, and putting a boon there guarantees either value from the boon or time loss for the killer (or both.) Think RPD library, Ironworks catwalks, Thompson House upstairs, Badham basement, etc - but also corners of the map, or areas where all the generators have been completed and there's no reason to patrol there. Basically, if (survivor time to reach totem)+14 < ((killer time to reach totem)+1)*(number of survivors remaining in the match), the survivors win that interaction, because while one survivor and the killer were wasting time with totems, the rest of the survivors were progressing the match.

    That's how we ended up in the situation where snuffing is rarely worth it - because if you go out of your way to snuff a totem, you're losing more time than the survivors spent placing it. Searching for totems is completely unrealistic on the killer end and snuffing is only a good idea if you run across the totem while not in a chase (because stopping to snuff then typically means the survivor can reach another loop, and that costs even more time.) Breaking totems would change the math because you get something more out of the deal than just a flat delay.

    This is especially a problem with Shadowstep on indoor maps - add in Iron Will and you get situations where you can't really chase survivors unless you snuff the totem, which loses the chase, but then someone puts the totem back up as soon as you leave, and rinse-repeat. It doesn't matter that you know where the problem totem is, because you can't snuff it without going back to square one. Your only hope at that point relies on luck or one of the survivors screwing up.

    I find it hard to believe that boons are functioning properly. Right now, the only way it seems balanced is when a boon's effect is so weak or inherently counterable that the killer can afford to just not care about snuffing it (Exponential) - and that's obviously flawed in its own way. Otherwise, you just sort of have to put up with the effect being there for most of the game, because the counterplay is a losing battle and survivors will waste less time than you will if they're smart about it. And let's not start with matches where 3-4 survivors are running CoH and you have zero ability to stop boons from existing all around the map at all times.

    While I agree overall, the solution to that is not to completely abandon boons as a concept and turn them into some temporary annoyance that neither side sees any value in. The solution to that is what they should've done to begin with, which is overhaul totem spawns so that they're balanced around both hexes and boons.

    Also, there is one part you're missing, though it doesn't change the above- the best times to snuff a totem are if you encounter it out of a chase, and to snuff it after you've won the chase, since that buys you a little leeway. Even in scenarios like with Shadow Step and Iron Will, that is not impossible- and in situations where they aren't stacking all those benefits (no scratch marks, no sound, indoor map w/ LoS blockers, bad spot in general) it's very, very achievable. Otherwise, yes, there are very bad totem spots that really need to be adjusted so there are fewer of them, or maybe boons as a mechanic could be tweaked to have less verticality. Something like that.

    I don't mean to imply that the mechanic is working as intended, I'm specifically talking about how breaking boon totems is a self-evidently bad idea that people should stop bringing up.

    in Give killers the option to break Boon totems Comment by jesterkind

  • @Mister_xD said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2793263#Comment_2793263

    you're missing the entirety of my point.

    the problem is that people farm you off in front of the Killer, because that is what leads to the Killer tunneling you.

    and BT is actively encouraging them to do so, which needs to stop.

    a lot of the scenarios where you argue that BT is needed and healthy would literally be eliminated by removing hook farms like that - and for the other scenarios, literally nothing would change, because the unhooker wasnt in grab or swing distance to the Killer anyway.

    less hook farms = less instant tunnels - and even if the Killer comes back to tunnel, now you got BT and can make a run for it.

    and yes, 12 seconds are enough to get to a loop at a vast majority of hook locations. There are very few examples where this isnt actually the case, such as the Tompson House, but i feel confident in saying that you shouldnt have much of an issue finding a T L wall, a Jungle Gym or a simple pallet tile in 12 seconds from ~95% of the possible hook locations. and you're most likely gonna have some time to spare as well.

    Making some version of BT basekit really wouldn't be eliminating a survivor's ability to make mistakes

    yes it would. if the unhooked guy boyblocks for the other, thats exactly what happens: both get away.

    to clarify: by "get away" i dont mean instantly win the chase, i mean making enough distance on the Killer to find the next looping tile and start looping them as if they never were at the hook in the first place. e.g. getting out of basement and taking the shack window to disappear into the night.

    also, i'd like to point this out:

    there are exactly 2 scenarios where a nerf like this would actually negatively affect the Survivors:

    1) a Survivor has been found and is being chased when they decide that now would be a great time to go for an unhook

    2) the Killer is facecamping

    outside of those two scenarios, this unhook time increase would literally do nothing bad for Survivors, because they are not in direct contact with the Killer and therefore couldnt care less if it took them an extra second or so to pull the other guy off the hook.

    and lets be honest:

    in scenario 1) the Survivor should not be going for that unhook in the first place.

    and in scenario 2) the Survivors should, once again, not try to go for unhooks either but do gens instead. sucks for the person on the hook, but facecamping is a different topic that needs to be addressed seperately.

    in both of these scenarios, the Survivors are making a big misplay already, so making it harder to pull off would in return mean, that your teammates would be disencouraged to even go for such dumb plays, which is overall more beneficial to you (on the hook) in 9 out of 10 cases.

    The only point here that I agree with is the bodyblocking- that's why what I personally would propose is removing collision so that can't happen. It's the only real, tangible downside to a basekit BT iteration that I can see arising that would prevent it from obviously making the killer prioritise the person doing the unhooking.

    Also, this probably is part of their solution to facecamping, and even if that isn't their intent with the change it still isn't a separate issue. This would help against being hard tunnelled, and it would help against being facecamped, with the downside being that it's harder (but not impossible) to tunnel in situations where you're going to try and contest the unhook. That seems like a pretty good trade to me, if the issue of potentially abusing it for bodyblocking is addressed- even with your messages all you're doing is confirming that it would work to dissuade those two things.

    You've kinda said it yourself- the unhooked player having something to stop them being downed for a few seconds only matters if you're already there to contest, and in that case, yes, it is absolutely fair for the person who is being unhooked to have a fighting chance at not being downed literally immediately to incentivise you to go for the person doing the unhooking. A player shouldn't be punished for their teammate's mistakes and being hard tunnelled intentionally because of facecamping or other intentional targeting isn't healthy design to encourage, so no matter what way you slice it this is just a good idea that doesn't require a corresponding nerf to balance it out.

    So, to summarise: bodyblocking is the only legitimate issue that I can see arising here, and I fully hope that the devs implement whatever they have planned in such a manner that it doesn't become a problem. Otherwise, all this does is make it so the killer player has far more cause to target the person who is actually making the mistake instead of their helpless teammate, and that on its own ought to encourage smarter plays in the long run. If it doesn't, making unhooks take longer won't achieve it either.

    in One change I would want to see, if Borrowed Time was actually made basekit Comment by jesterkind

  • I can explain that one! It's because boon totems are supposed to be continual slowdown forcing survivors off gens repeatedly because they want to keep their buffs up.

    Which is why having killers break boon totems is a bad idea- it doesn't fix anything and it prevents them from ever reaching their full potential as a mechanic.

    in Give killers the option to break Boon totems Comment by jesterkind

  • @Mister_xD said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2793217#Comment_2793217

    the problem is when being farmed leaves you in a situation where you are powerless.

    no, thats actually quite intended.

    You are not supposed to just be able to unhook in the Killers face and get away with it for free, the punishment for that is the unhooked person being rehooked immediately, being brought one step closer to death, which is a big setback to the Survivor team in a whole. that is the punishment for this action and thats quite a fair one at that, given we only look at this from a team vs team perspective.

    The core issue is not that the Survivor team gets punished for making bad plays, the issue is that the game actively encourages one individual to do said bad plays by rewarding them for it, but punishes someone else for said misplay.

    So the shift i'm suggesting here is, that we make it so unhooking leaves the freshly unhooked player in a safe state, but it actively endangeres the unhooker instead. The punishment shifts from punishing the hookfarmed to punishing the hookfarmer.

    They will not be hookfarming you, if they receive the punishment for it when it backfires (rather than you), thats the point i was making.

    but if we dont endanger the unhooker, we turn hooks into something thats entirely safe for Survivors (when they are supposed to be the Killers stronghold). While you would be right that it'd be fair for the unhooked, it'd be extremely unfair to the Killer, given that the Survivor team just made a huge misplay, but the Killer cant actually punish them for it.

    Thats how Killers win in this game, by punishing mistakes made by Survivors. But if we just keep eliminating the Survivors ability to make mistakes, we in return make it harder and harder for Killers to be able to win. Thats why BT basekit without any change to compensate would be a bad thing, because it makes unhooks entirely safe, stripping the Killer off the ability to punish the misplay.

    But the point I'm trying to make is that even with the current BT, which is presumably going to be stronger than the version that makes it into the basekit of the game, unsafe unhooks are still very punishable- they just don't result in the survivor being downed literally immediately, they have 12 seconds to make it to something where they can try to loop and escape, OR they're forced to spend a few seconds mending while the killer spreads pressure elsewhere.

    Making some version of BT basekit really wouldn't be eliminating a survivor's ability to make mistakes, it'd just stop someone else from being punished for those mistakes. If someone goes for an unsafe unhook and the killer knows that they can't hit the person being unhooked, that means the unhooker has aggro on them now. It may not be the instant-down of a grab (though it may still be an instant down depending on circumstances), but it's absolutely still a mistake that will still be capitalised on by the killer, it's just rightfully shifting the punishment onto the person who made the mistake.

    There's really no reason to assume that some variation on this actually would hurt killers, at least ones who aren't intending to hard tunnel no matter what. You can still go for the unhooker and you can still bait out BT like you can right now, you're just not going to be able to immediately down the person who was just on the hook. You keep saying that the person making the mistake is the one who should be punished, but they would be if the killer knows without a doubt that BT is in play and that there's no point going for the unhooked guy- they'll be punished by being the one that the killer is right on top of, which will at least result in an injury if not a down. You're overlooking that the uncertainty will be eliminated here,right now the killer doesn't know if the person being unhooked has BT saving them but if BT was basekit they'd always go for the unhooker.

    in One change I would want to see, if Borrowed Time was actually made basekit Comment by jesterkind

  • @Mister_xD said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2792323#Comment_2792323

    Borrowed Time covers for a gap in the core gameplay where survivors are subjected to something completely out of their control- there is literally, straight up, nothing you can do about being farmed and immediately downed again without perks.

    only problem with that argument is, that making BT basekit doesnt address this issue in the slightest.

    you can still get farmed by overaltruistic teammates without being able to do anything against it.

    if that is the problem, they should add the ability to deny getting unhooked by someone similar to how you can deny being healed, not give survivors BT for free.

    BT quite literally does the opposite of helping you here.

    Do you remember when they added the "safe unhook" score event and the "unsafe hook rescues" emblem penalty? those were made to fight exactly this behavior you're complaining about, yet BT just entirely negated them. The hookfarmers didnt disappear - they just equipped BT and continued the same way as before, knowing that now they will be getting away with it again.

    I've spoken out about this on a multitude of occasions, but, per usual, have been ignored. a simple fix to this would have been to make the unsafe unhook penalties go through when the unhooked Survivor gets hit, not when they get downed within 10 seconds after being unhooked. but since that has never been implemented and Emblems are no longer a thing, we gotta find a new way to disencourage this behavior.

    the main problem with BT isnt even the strength of its effects, its the mindset it creates in Survivors heads and the gameplay it encourages.

    my overall goal here is actually very similar to yours: i want to disencourage unsafe hook rescues (alias "hook farms"). BT has been a thorn in my eye for a very long time now, but since it has always just been a Perk, it was quite difficult to find a good solution to this problem due to the fact that not everyone runs it - but if it was turned into a base game mechanic, that would change drastically. So if the escape from the unhooking sight was made to be guaranteed to be safe, then, at least in my opinion, a good way of fighting Survivors turning off their brain and just unhooking because they can (which also encourages tunneling btw, cause why wouldnt you want to go after the guy who is gonna be on deathhook (or even dead) now from the Killers PoV? - so thanks to that BT mindset the Perk actually leads to more tunnel scenarios than when it wasnt around, its trying to fix something but at the same time makes that thing occur more often) would be by making the unhooking action in itself more risky.

    think about it: people would stop hookfarming you for good, if hookfarming you meant certain death for them.

    and im not saying all this from the perspective of a Killer who just wants to camp more efficiently, im saying it from the perspective of the hooked Survivor - i would much rather be saved without BT when its actually safe to do so than be pulled off the hook with BT when the Killer is close.

    your solution of making the unhooked Survivor lose collision sounds neat in theory, but sadly i doubt it is going to work out in practise too well. knowing this game, its probaply going to be very janky with the auto aim system (or the "aim dressing") and will work very similar to old Freddy, where your attacks get pulled to a Survivor thats not attackable when they run behind someone who is, achieving a similar effect as simply bodyblocking you with endurance.

    I'm not sure I follow what you're saying- I don't see how Borrowed Time doesn't cover the gap I outlined, when it gives you the ability to react and dash to a loop if you get hit. BT fixes this problem because it guarantees you won't be downed off hook- it obviously doesn't stop the killer from following you after you get unhooked, nothing could, but it actually lets you do something about it.

    Farming itself isn't the problem, that's just a bad habit, the problem is when being farmed leaves you in a situation where you are powerless. You are obviously still at a disadvantage if the killer decides to follow you after you're unhooked, but a lack of BT or even a slower unhook animation doesn't solve that either, it's just that you are vulnerable while injured and somewhere the killer knows your location. If the killer follows you post-BT, or having waited out the duration of BT, it's back in your hands to do something about it because you aren't literally downed again a second after being unhooked.

    So, sure, I guess I agree that hook farming would be eliminated if unhooking was always risky, but I don't really care about eliminating hook farming, I care about stopping people from being hard tunnelled, intentionally or accidentally. Also, it's kind of irrelevant to bring up how well this solution would be implemented on a technical level, obviously any hypothetical discussion about potential fixes assumes that those fixes would work.

    (Also, why does everyone always put "aim dressing" in sarcastic air quotes? There's a difference between what this game has an an auto-aim system, I've never understood the resistance to referring to it accurately. Not really relevant, it's just always confused me.)

    in One change I would want to see, if Borrowed Time was actually made basekit Comment by jesterkind

  • I prefer the new movement for the sole reason that it's now far easier to tell at a glance when someone is injured, since survivors were always kinda hunched over before. The new UI is just better, though- at least the current version, the original new UI was godawful lol

    in prefer old or new UI/MOVEMENT Comment by jesterkind

  • @Faulds said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2792985#Comment_2792985

    Okay, my bad, i misunderstood. But i don't think making gens take longer is the right way either... i mean thats why some freddy's add-ons got nerfed in the first place (forever freddy was so boring to go against).

    I do think it's worth mentioning that Forever Freddy had a range of how effective (and therefore boring) it was depending on how many speed increases the survivors brought, but yes, I agree. I personally favour putting some kind of soft cap onto stacking different perks and items, so you can still shave time off a generator and don't have to hold M1 forever, but can't bang out generators in crazy short amounts of times. You'd also have to tweak what killers have available to slow gens down, but that's doable too. It's a time consuming endeavour but it's just juggling numbers, I doubt it'd be too difficult to do.

    It would be tricky, but I do believe it's doable.

    in About that BT/ Corrupt discussion Comment by jesterkind

  • @Faulds said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2792966#Comment_2792966

    There is two issues in dead by daylight: camping-tunneling/ gen speed. BT deals with camping-tunneling perfectly fine (even more if you understand that you can stack ds on top of it). Killers need something with gen speed... and the moment they are the weakest is the early game "when you can lose two to three gens in the first chase". And this is in the survivors control... not yours. Thats why i brought up the discussion to begin with. In both issues, the opponent side has too much power and it needs to be weaken.

    Oh, I agree- I just think that looking for a perk to make basekit is too limiting, especially since gen speeds don't have a perk that'll do the job as neatly and concisely as BT does for tunnelling/camping.

    Like I said, the better pick is to scale back how quickly generators can be done. Instead of just blocking them, or futzing with skill checks, just scale down some numbers on all the various perks, items, addons, etc that speed up generator speed or put a cap on how much you can stack together- simpler, cleaner, concise, and works for every killer.

    in About that BT/ Corrupt discussion Comment by jesterkind

  • I think it's far, far too limiting to think about it as "a free perk" for killers, when it's not just "a free perk" for survivors. Basekit BT (or something close to it, which is what I suspect they're actually planning) would exist to cover a flaw with the game's core design- specifically the fact that a hard tunnelled off hook survivor has absolutely zero control and is put in that situation through no fault or mistake of their own. BT is good because sometimes as killer it's the best bet to try and tunnel someone immediately off hook before they can react-- or hell, it's really easy to accidentally hit the guy who just got unhooked.

    So, something in the same vein for killers would be something out of their control that improves a core flaw with the gameplay. I'd argue there genuinely isn't anything like that in the perk roster, but that doesn't mean there isn't a corresponding change that could be made, it'd just be kind of a sideways relation. I'd argue that the closest would be tweaking how aggressively generator repair speed buffs can stack- not making gens take longer themselves, but lowering how much survivors can speed them up.

    in About that BT/ Corrupt discussion Comment by jesterkind

  • @Devil_hit11 said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2792282#Comment_2792282

    "Nurse technically uses M1 attacks but she doesn't have to loop,"

    "Same with Myers."

    Nurse is not the same as Myers. I do not know how you conclude that they're the same.

    Myers is still M1 killer in tier 2 and in tier 3. In tier 3, with bamboozle perk, he has anti-loop towards windows but as I explained above. you can simply not use windows and utilize pallets to defeat him. you can be m1 killer and have instant downs. I do not understand how this difficult to comprehend.

    Using your ability does not change whether your m1 killer or not. its in the nature of the ability. Ghostface activating nightshroud during chase is still m1 killer because Nightshroud does not do much in a chase towards safe pallets.

    "I straight up have no idea where you got the notion I think instadowns make a killer strong, that's completely disconnected from anything either of us have been talking about"

    you said that having instant down makes you not an M1 killer. My counter-argument was that he is still m1 killer and that instant down does not matter if the survivor utilizes safe pallet loops correctly in conjunction with generator repair efficiency. I am not saying he is only m1 killer in the game, there are others, but he is probably most pure m1 killer out of any killer in the game.

    Alright, fair enough! I will yield that Myers is an M1 killer. This really changes very little about the actual point, being that he's stronger than people give him credit for and that there are at least two killers weaker than him, but you've definitely proven that much.

    I also didn't conclude that Nurse and Myers are the same, I concluded that Bubba and Myers are the same, you selectively cut out the part of my message where I made that clear: both have to loop but neither have to rely on basic attacks to secure their downs since they both have an instadown capacity. Bubba is better than Myers, for the record, because Bubba's instadown is more consistently available, but the principle of not having to hit every survivor twice to get a down remains the same.

    in The Shape is probably has the weakest basekit of any killer. Comment by jesterkind

  • @Sonzaishinai said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2792282#Comment_2792282

    Wouldn't legion also not be a m1 killer with that logic ?

    After his frenzy survivors are instant downable simular to exposed so they aren't a m1 killer anymore?

    When people talk about m1 killers they mostly mean that those killers have to rely on their basic movement speed to reach the survivor to hit them and not have a ability to enhance movement or hit from a distance or both

    Saying Myers isn't a m1 killer cause he can get brief instances of exposed is not really correct.

    That would mean that after getting the first hit no killer is a m1 killer anymore cause they all down the survivor from a single hit at that point.

    I wouldn't call Legion an M1 killer, no. This is getting a little off topic, though, my argument hardly hinged on the idea that Myers isn't an M1 killer, it was just a side point. Hell, call it whatever you want- the point is that he's not powerless and can circumvent the need to hit twice through looping, whatever you'd call that is fine by me.

    in The Shape is probably has the weakest basekit of any killer. Comment by jesterkind

  • I don't think this is the right call, personally speaking. The reason that Borrowed Time is having rumblings of some basekit incarnation is because of what it does, and that's why it definitely isn't just a free 5th perk slot. Borrowed Time covers for a gap in the core gameplay where survivors are subjected to something completely out of their control- there is literally, straight up, nothing you can do about being farmed and immediately downed again without perks.

    It's not just that survivor players are getting a free efficiency buff that needs to be counteracted by the same mechanic getting a corresponding nerf, it's that a flaw with the game's design is being corrected. If killers got a corresponding change, it'd have to be in the same vein to be considered actually a reaction and not a disconnected buff; something where a perk covers core flaws in the gameplay. I'd honestly argue that no killer perks do that, though the closest would definitely be something to slow down the game and give everyone a little room to breathe, so if killers get a change to correspond with this - a huge "if" because that isn't really how these things work - it'd presumably look like some nerfs to generator speed increases, or a change to how stacking those increases works.

    Side note, I personally hope that whatever their basekit anti-tunnel measure looks like, it has something to do with removing collision on the unhooked survivor. I've accidentally ended up downing the unhooked guy way too often because of the aim dressing combined with a weird angle, I'd love if I literally couldn't hit them and had to hit the unhooker for a few seconds there. It'd help with BT bodyblocking, too.

    in One change I would want to see, if Borrowed Time was actually made basekit Comment by jesterkind

  • @Devil_hit11 said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2791881#Comment_2791881

    "that it's an instadown is what stops him from being an M1 killer- he only has to outplay a survivor once, versus an M1 killer who has to do it at least twice every single time."

    So your definition of an m1 killer is a killer that has instantdown? I do not think that is quite what killer players define as m1 killers. when a player says that killer is m1, they mean that killer has no possibility to outplay the survivor i.e no anti-loop if the survivor does not make a mistake in safe loops. it means killer relies on their base movement speed to get hitsl M1 killers are not defined by their ability to have instant down or not. Otherwise killers like Huntress, Spirit, Nurse would be defined as M1 by your definition when they are clearly rely on their ability.

    "There's another thing I'd want to highlight- his power doesn't necessarily rely on survivor mistakes, it relies on you outplaying the survivor. There's a subtle but important difference"

    This leads to my second point. I do not think m1 killers outplay survivors at safe loops. M1 killers capitalize off survivor movement errors. Like when you down a survivor at jungle gym, you didn't outplay the survivor, the survivor did not know how to run tile correctly such that they do not get hit. it has very little to do with killer's skill and everything to do with survivor's inexperience/lack of skill. there is no control on killer part for whether or not they get hit. Survivor has full control over situation based off how they play the loop. they need make mistake for you to down them.

    Killers that have anti-loop can outplay survivors because they can use their skills to counter survivor's counter-measures towards avoiding a hit. I will give example for what I mean by using huntress. When huntress raises her hatchet to go into throwing mode, survivors will keep moving straight to make distance as huntress is slower when in throwing mode, as this happening, survivors will try to dodge to left or right as huntress fires a hatchet. The huntress player can shoot left or right in anticipation of the survivor dodging left or right such that they run into the hatchet. This is an example of a killer outplaying a survivor. There is equal exchange of skill where the survivor can dodge the projectile but the killer has counter-play through their aim and prediction in still being able to hit the survivor.

    This is difference between m1 killers and anti-loop killers. With anti-loop killers, the killer's skill has input on the outcome for whether they get hits or not. Their skill has input on outcome of chases, thus they get hooks. hook translate into kills. With m1 killers, you have hope the survivor f* up at loops. Its nothing to do with you. It to do with them.

    "here's a fun thought experiment- instead of explaining why Myers is weak, take a crack at explaining how Clown or Legion are better."

    If you finished reading the top on my post, you'll understand my perception on clown and legion being the same. I do not think they're better or worse, they're in same boat. According to you, what makes killer strong is the ability to instant down. In that sense, Legion is exactly that. he has anti-loop ability that always grants him first hit because he can fast vault windows, fast vault pallets and moves faster than survivor but it cannot down survivor without add-on franks mixtape which is utterly pointless right now because legion received negative rework many years ago. As for why he is better, he doesn't need work for his ability to injure survivors and he gets a bit of bonus tracking. Legion is apparently getting reworked so hopefully, maybe he gets his ability to down again hopefully more counter-play than what original version had. He is myers without actual time investment to get instant downs minus low tr & bamboozle t3 vaulting in exchange for killer instinct tracking. He's still m1 though.

    Clown is claimed to have anti-loop, but his anti-loop is garbage in the sense that it doesn't do enough vs safe loops. Remember that purpose of anti-loop on killers is to shorten chases and his ability doesn't shorten chases against good players. All it tends to do is make survivors play more safe against him because greeding pallets is more risky and heavily discouraged from his hindered effect of purple tonic. At base-kit, he lacks lethality to capitalize off survivors that are out of position and even the classic health state wastes his time and produces long chases. That is why clown players use Pinky finger because at least than, he can capitalize off survivors being out of position. He is not really supposed to gain lethality from instant downs though. He is suppose use his haste and Hindered effects to catch up the survivor quickly after he hits them and the large increase in speed/hindered is suppose help him at loops to shorten chases but since his yellow bottle is situational at best from activation time and his pink bottle is not strong enough on its own, he remains in same state as he was before his rework that holistically did nothing. I would say pinky finger clown is better myers because he gets instant downs right at the start of the game instead having to work for it, but myers has tombstone piece which as I said, instantly deletes survivirs out of the game, so that is obviously stronger if you can 99% his EV2 and instant kill someone minus time investment to get there.

    Kill-wise, Myers probably better with his strongest add-ons. Chase-wise and instant down wise. clown is way better. Base-kit wise, all of 3 are awful. Legion's probably best out of 3 at base-kit, but he has least impactful add-on out of 3 therefore weakest out of 3 when factoring perks/add-ons. I do not really play myer or legion. I still play pinky finger clown as I find him fun to play despite being weak, but when his add-on gets nuked completely, than I will not play him.

    No, an M1 killer is a killer that has to rely on both basic attacks and conventional looping. If a killer has a means to avoid either of those, they're not an M1 killer, which I thought was pretty intuitive from the term. Nurse technically uses M1 attacks but she doesn't have to loop, and the opposite is also true- Bubba has to loop but he doesn't have to rely on basic attacks, so he isn't an M1 killer.

    Same with Myers. While Tier 3 is active, he has to loop but he doesn't have to rely on basic attacks since he inflicts Exposed as part of his basekit. When he's in Tier 2 he's an M1 killer, but he has a little stealth to help with that and even then you can catch survivors out of position before they can get to a loop and pop your Tier 3.

    I straight up have no idea where you got the notion I think instadowns make a killer strong, that's completely disconnected from anything either of us have been talking about. I said instadowns prevent him from being an M1 killer, because they do, and I said that instadowns give him an edge over the actual worst basekit killers, which they do, but I never said anything about them making a killer strong? In case I have to, I'm gonna repeat it here: Myers is not a strong killer. He is in the bottom five killers in the game, he's just not dead last; I'd personally put him at the top of that list, though it's not saying much.

    in The Shape is probably has the weakest basekit of any killer. Comment by jesterkind

  • Prioritise the licensed killers since you can't buy them with shards, and definitely start with Bubba for BBQ.

    in What killers do you consider a "must-buy" for their perks? Comment by jesterkind

  • I'll defend the Field Combat Manual- it isn't a good addon because the zombies are too inconsistent, but if the zombies were consistent it'd have some value. You only see the the aura and it's attack animation if you're already looking at it; if you're focusing on something else, you can hear the attack audio cue and look up to see which of the two zombies just turned yellow. Without the Field Manual, you wouldn't know which of the two zombies got the hit.

    It's still not great but it's only a brown, it has a perfectly adequate effect for a common addon.

    Definitely agree on the Sample and Tyrant Gore- it's weird that they're the same rarity and have such similar effects. One of them should probably be a yellow, or just reworked to do something else.

    in Nemesis needs Rework now! Comment by jesterkind

  • @Ryuhi said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2791903#Comment_2791903

    If they escaped, they're guaranteed at least gold in one category. Survival has always been an awful category both for points and for emblems.

    In terms of measuring vs the other person, i'm guessing they spectated after dying and saw a whole lot of nothing. Probably paired with a whole lot of nothing while on the hook, and maybe a dash of empathy/bond/etc showing an aura squatting down in the doing nothing factory.

    True, but I feel like OP probably got pretty high score in whatever the chase emblem is, right?

    Still, it's definitely frustrating. The emblem system could do with some tweaking, and bloodpoint gains definitely need sprucing up.

    in Ran killer for 3 generators, came below an urban evasion player Comment by jesterkind

  • I would assume that the Urban Evader also didn't get a good score on the emblem system, if they were hiding for the majority of the game, so I don't think you really did come below them.

    Also you don't see another player's emblem score so I'm not sure what you're basing this on?

    in Ran killer for 3 generators, came below an urban evasion player Comment by jesterkind

  • @Devil_hit11 said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2790686#Comment_2790686

    "I 100% disagree - unless you define "survivors playing poorly" as "survivors making any mistake at all"

    I think this is a bit of hyperbole. All can down survivors eventually as there is not unlimited amount of safe pallets, but it is about how long it takes to get downs. he has natural slow early game so saying he can snowball on first down sounds strange given that his early game is of the level killers like Trapper and Oni.

    "Myers isn't an M1 killer even with all of those hypotheticals"

    Explain how he is not an m1 killer at loops. Just like clown, you can drop pallets like candy against him and he is largely forced to break safe pallets on the map. With bamboozle and tier 3, he can vault windows as fast as survivor which sounds like advantage but because the risk vs reward for vaulting windows is not there for survivor, there is not a point in using windows against tier 3 bamboozle myers. as his reach is slightly bigger but not big enough to make pallets unsafe, it makes survivors play safer around them which is not good for you as the killer as you have little answer to dropped safe pallets. The instant-down is possible to consistently avoid at loops because it relies on survivor mistakes at pallet loops to be successful. That is like definition of an m1 killer.

    "I actually want to drill down on this for a second- so many arbitrary restrictions are being placed on this measurement"

    I think no perks is not good measurement as once perks are unlocked, all killers can use them. Add-on can also be used semi-consistently but only after you have played the game enough to go past the BP grind. Going against strong survivors is not exactly uncommon if you are good at the game and its probably the only comparison that makes any sense when comparing killer strengths. I am not sure how to put it, but against new players and average survivors, every killer is probably S-tier as all of them win equally if your better than they are at survivor.

    I guess if you define an M1 killer as just not having a ranged attack, sure, but the fact that it's an instadown is what stops him from being an M1 killer- he only has to outplay a survivor once, versus an M1 killer who has to do it at least twice every single time. That's what separates him from the M1 killers like Trapper and Clown. Additionally, with the 99ing of Tier 3, a survivor very well may not be at a loop when you get that instadown, making this kinda moot.

    There's another thing I'd want to highlight- his power doesn't necessarily rely on survivor mistakes, it relies on you outplaying the survivor. There's a subtle but important difference, because sometimes a survivor doesn't make any mistakes but you read them correctly so you still get the hit.

    I also didn't say strong survivors, I said "strong 4-man" and "survivors who don't make mistakes", the former of which is much less common than some people would claim it to be and the latter of which is impossible. Yes, against strong survivors in general he does suffer, nobody's arguing that Myers is S tier, but the point is that he can still get more done more consistently than some other killers on the roster, making him not the weakest.

    Here's a fun thought experiment- instead of explaining why Myers is weak, take a crack at explaining how Clown or Legion are better.

    in The Shape is probably has the weakest basekit of any killer. Comment by jesterkind

  • @Devil_hit11 said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2790519#Comment_2790519

    Not leaning into his niche strengths makes him have a non-impactful power. I think if you can snowball with him, you can snowball with any killer vs that same team because myer's ability to snowball comes solely on off m1 gameplay. Given the pallet looping strength and time constraint on killers(generator efficiency), I don't think his snowball is really anything more than survivors playing poorly. I know this is going to sound alien, but I honestly think that a vast majority of the maps, an m1 killer like him can be looped for 4-5 generators.

    I think that's largely the main reason why his add-ons are the way they are. When your power is as irrelevant as what he has base-kit, your only way to fix it is to jack-up the rewards for stalking to the moon. That is why he has Tombstone piece, a add-on that completely bypasses all 3 hook states and instantly deletes a survivor from the match and tuft of hair, an add-on that gives unlimited instant down capacity(permanent devour hope 3 stack). J.Myers memorial is real winner add-on that makes him not the worst killer in the game. it fixes his time inefficiencies of stalking and makes all other impactful add-ons(hair bow, tombstone piece and infinity ev3) usable. Clown's pinky finger is sorta same deal for him but he is not topic of interest in thread.

    I 100% disagree - unless you define "survivors playing poorly" as "survivors making any mistake at all", which would be incredibly strange to do because the alternative is an insane hypothetical that would never bear out in a real match - his snowball comes from capitalising on the first down that you can get, which can happen pretty easily if you 99 his Tier 3 and wait until you're right on someone.

    And I actually want to drill down on this for a second- so many arbitrary restrictions are being placed on this measurement that it kinda ceases to have any meaning. IF he has no addons, IF he has no perks, IF you're going against a good 4-man, IF survivors don't make mistakes... any one of those hypotheticals is a pretty big if to put on this discussion, and all of them at once leaves you with a result that is at best a trivia fun fact.

    Regardless... as previously established, Myers isn't an M1 killer even with all of those hypotheticals (save for the last one) in play. He has an instadown and it's not one survivors can consistently avoid, that automatically gives him an edge over the actual bottom-of-the-barrel killers in the roster. Tack onto that his stealth and the fact that nobody is going to run him perkless and addonless outside of challenges, and he really shapes up, pun fully intended.

    in The Shape is probably has the weakest basekit of any killer. Comment by jesterkind

  • You know, I thought the analogy was clumsy too, but it's pretty blatantly disingenuous to pretend that the comparison being drawn was a direct, literal one.

    It was about stat tracking, not about how the games actually play.

    in Dead By Daylight isn't Hockey Comment by jesterkind

  • @SilentShepherd said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2790223#Comment_2790223

    Hide and Seek Killers :

    Michael Myers

    Ghostface

    Clown

    Demogorgan

    Wraith

    Hillbilly

    Huntress

    Oni

    Pig

    Trapper

    Blight

    Trickster

    Artist

    Nemesis

    Twins

    Executioner

    DeathSlinger

    Plague

    Spirit

    Bubba

    ------

    All of those killers have to search to find a survivor. But please, keep posting more lies about the game "not having hide n seek anymore"

    The Doctor and Cenobite are really the only ones that have basekit Killer ability/power and reveal where survivors are. Cenobite is annoying but his power does not bother me as much as Doctor does. Doctor's ability reveals people through several layers of walls and above/below the floor he is on in a giant AoE. It's beyond stupid and should have never made it into the game.

    Not quite true. Killers with basekit tracking include Doctor, Cenobite, Artist, Legion, Twins, Plague, and Demogorgon.

    If we expand that to be not just literal tracking in the form of screams, Killer Instinct, and in the case of Plague the increased audio cues, but also things like addons for aura reveal and more sideways tracking like sound notifications for power interactions, we also have Wraith, Huntress, Trapper, and Nemesis, at least that I can remember off the top of my head.

    Additionally, maps have been gradually lightened, which further moves hide and seek into the "occasional tactic" barrel, and stops it from being the point of the game.

    The game simply isn't about stealth anymore. Sometimes it works, but it's not a tactic you can expect to work every game against every killer- because some of them were designed specifically to make you change your tactic, like Doctor.

    in Unfun mechanics need to be slowly removed from the game, 1 by 1. Comment by jesterkind

  • Simply giving another perk slot would be a bad idea for a number of reasons, but most relevant is that it simply isn't proportional to the topic at hand.

    Survivors aren't just getting "a free perk", as many want to boil it down to. The specific perk that we've seen hints may have some version being added to the base game is Borrowed Time- a perk that exists to cover a scenario where survivors are subjected to something completely out of their control. It's not a second chance perk like Dead Hard or even Decisive Strike, it exists to make sure someone isn't hard tunnelled off the hook immediately.

    So, if killers get something as well - and that is a HUGE "if" - it would be something along the same lines; a perk they feel compelled to bring because not bringing it is setting you up for punishment. Killer simply doesn't have anything directly comparable to Borrowed Time, but there are some kinda similar perks- mostly ones like Corrupt, or Deadlock, or something else to slow down generators.

    Therefore, IF killers get a corresponding buff, it'd be something to tackle generator efficiency, because these changes are made for reasons and it's not as though "one side" gets something so the other must too as if the playerbase of this game are squabbling sibling toddlers.

    in If BT becomes base kit... Comment by jesterkind

  • I certainly hope not.

    in xQc is currently playing Killer Comment by jesterkind

  • @Devil_hit11 said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2790289#Comment_2790289

    Lower Terror is not that meaningful vs better players.SWF can easily call out his position and run miles before your even remotely near them. The faster vaulting is almost meaningless in tier 2 and is not significant enough of a boost in tier 3 because your still forced to play around windows and make reads. The tier 1->tier 2->tier 3 is large time sink where myer is not hitting survivors, therefore not downing survivors, thus its counter-acting his instant downs which are suppose to give him greater time efficiency in the chase. Tier 3 is suppose to be myer's strongest suit yet you can counter his entire tier 3 by not healing and it ends up being that your safer not healing than healing because of dead hard as a perk for survivor. The slightly longer lunge distance is barely noticeable when it comes to changing strong loops into unsafe loops. The safe pallet loops are just as strong against him as they are on every other killer.

    A big telltale that his power is lacking in power is how he needs perks to actually unlock killer power. Monitor&Abuse pushes in terror radius to 8 meters so now he finally gets stealth. Alternative, you can use dead rabbit to lower his terror radius for what other killers like wraith and ghostface get automatically for needing a perk. The same be can said about his window vaulting where you need bamboozle to not need to make reads at windows in tier 3 and make tier 2 vaulting relevant. Due to time investment needed to get to tier 3, you need get 2 or more hits to counter-act your time investment of stalking to make tier 3 more relevant than what you could do by not going tier 3. This is why infectious fright is perk that gets selected on him because it counter-acts some of bad time investment from stalking.

    As you can see, he is pigeon-locked into perks to either make his tier 3 bonus or tier 2 terror radius bonus semi-relevant(vs solo) to have effective power. As OP states, his power is so simple that you can make perks out of his abilities and have shape's kit on every killer.

    Its interesting to see that other people are coming same conclusion as I did many years ago where i said he was weakest killer. Myers, Clown, Legion and Ghostface are all pretty close i'd say so you can make a case for any one of those killers powers being least impactful killer powers. I wonder if they'll keep weakening pinky finger clown so clown can now also be completely add-onless.

    Those are all accurate reasons why he's not that strong, but they don't translate to him being the worst. Basekit stealth may be less useful, but combined with his basekit instadowns he'll always be put above other weak killers like Clown (whose only utility is to shut down certain loops if and only if the pallet isn't predropped) and Legion (who do have a lot of utility but don't do any of them particularly well).

    But I do strongly disagree with one thing- he's not pigeonholed into perks at all, he's actually quite versatile. You can lean into the things he's already good at, as said above, or you can bring things that cover some gaps in his kit, or you can bring fun meme builds that range in strength...

    He's certainly objectively very weak if we're putting the artificial restriction of no addons and no perks on him, but even discounting kinda busted addons like Tombstone Piece, once you evaluate him with a full build he's not the weakest by a long shot. Frankly, even without a build at all he's still better than Clown and Legion solely because he has better snowball potential.

    in The Shape is probably has the weakest basekit of any killer. Comment by jesterkind

  • I disagree- you'd also need to add in perks like Monitor and Abuse before you'd have his kit, which would put you up past the amount of perks you can bring in a match.

    I do disagree with the rest, though, I'm not just being pedantic- evaluating a killer solely on their base kit before addons and perks is a little misleading anyway, but the weakest basekit killer is Clown. Even factoring in (basic, not busted/iridescent/etc) addons, the weakest is still Clown, and Myers is further up than people give him credit for.

    He does have a slow start, but the crucial misunderstanding is that when Tier 3 drains, he is not a basic M1 killer. He's a basic M1 killer with a smaller terror radius, which is a bigger deal than a lot of people realise- especially if you're running something like Dead Rabbit. While it still isn't much, it's stealth that he gets without needing to bring anything. You don't run any killer without bringing perks and addons, so Myers can either lean even harder into his stealth and instadowns, or run tracking and slowdown to cover his bases; he's very versatile and simply capable of far more than a killer like Clown, Legion, or even the average Trapper.

    That being said, he definitely needs some help- it's just that his core design is still fundamentally sound. He doesn't need a rework, just some QoL buffs.

    in The Shape is probably has the weakest basekit of any killer. Comment by jesterkind

  • @[Deleted User] said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2789947#Comment_2789947

    I've been trying to explain why I feel it does, though. It's incetivization out of necessity. Killers who camp are rewarded by this system, meaning they face better survivors. Invariably, this means that they have two options: 1) Continue to camp. 2) Stop camping, and get absolutely pummeled until their MMR bottoms out. So, naturally, the players continue to camp. The same goes for immersed, selfish survivors. They start escaping that way at the expense of your teammates, which causes them to face better killers. Their options become 1) Continue to play immersed. 2) Try to be a productive team member and get absolutely pummeled until their MMR bottoms out.

    I'm arguing that a team-escape-based MMR would help address most of these issues. Let's take the same example of our immersed survivor. This time they derank and start facing weaker killers. As a result, they don't feel as much danger in the game, meaning they start acting bolder, such as doing risky objectives or even stepping in to take chase for a teammate on death hook. This sort of play is gradually rewarded by MMR until they arrive back at a good balance.

    I'd also be open to changes like the one you described, but given that the current MMR system seems to be making these issues worse and really should be doing the opposite it seems like a logical place to start.

    You know, I think I misunderstood your point at first- I'll cop to that, I'm tremendously unwell so I'm a bit out of it lol

    So, simply changing the survivor side to be more about the team escape is a pretty okay idea, I don't hate that. I think most of the suggestions I've seen for it are too complicated, but some kind of adjustment where you don't rise as far if the rest of your team are dead is definitely a workable idea in theory- but the problem is that we can't know if the MMR system actually is causing any of the problems people are currently experiencing because the matching half of it is currently broken. Your experience may be that you're facing woefully unmatched or differently skilled killers, because the system is currently being far, far too lenient with the number matchups in a few cases. It's currently broken, which makes it hard to properly assess how well it works.

    In the case that having the matching half fixed still results in what you're describing, which is possible but not a guarantee, then yes- team based adjustments would be the best first place to look.

    in How the MMR works, and why what Patrick said makes absolute sense (from a dev POV) Comment by jesterkind

  • @[Deleted User] said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2789869#Comment_2789869

    1. Not disagreeing that this happened before. I just finished a roughly 6 month break from the game, though, and what I've come back to has been worse than anything I've experienced in 1300 hours. It's been match after match after match of getting camped to death on the first hook. I had a streak of actually 8 matches in a row a few days ago where it happened. Why? As far as I can figure, killers at my MMR are likely going to fit into a few moulds: 1) Terrible killers who camp for the 2k. 2) Actual killers of my skill. 3) Killers way better than me who like to meme around instead of completing their objective (i.e. BK Myers, the classic Wraith EGC Rancor/Nemesis murder spree). Bucket 3 has always been pretty rare, and now bucket 1 is incentivized since 1) some players value being more "skilled" and will play so as to fit that definition, and 2) players who find success with that playstyle will find it harder and harder to stop, because they're boosted to the point where they're playing against players they can't kill when they don't camp. I could be wrong, but I can't think of any other change during my hiatus that could have caused this change in someone's behavior.
    2. Very much disagree. Anyone with two thumbs can 2k with Bubba unless they're facing a team that is so much better than them they can't even get a down. Are these the kinds of matches we want to incentivize? Killers who are so boosted they can only camp to win, so they have no choice but to keep camping, and this vicious cycles it's way until the gap is so large they finally start losing again? This is just bad for everyone involved since it encourages unfun play. Rather than this stick of collateral damage, I prefer the carrot of deranking these players. If you're facing baby survivors and don't need to worry about playing perfectly all of the time, players don't need to resort to camping in order to win. They can just go off and chase and take it easy and still do well and not get bullied. This will gradually raise their ranks until they're in a good place.

    ---

    The current issues with MMR are independent of whether their algorithm is working as intended. The concept is fundamentally flawed. My guess is they figured it would be a decent proxy for skill without anticipating the side effects in terms of match quality for incentivizing selfish and unfun play.

    If you haven't noticed worse quality matches under MMR, that's good for you. I'm sure YMMV. I'm a very altruistic player, though, and will frequently sacrifice myself for teammates during the EGC because it's more fun and usually more lucrative (in terms of BP) to try to save them than to let them die. It also builds camaraderie and is fun to smile about in the postgame chat. For these sins, I am apparently doomed to play with more than my fair share of selfish potatoes against killers that if I'm lucky are just a bit worse than me, or if I'm unlucky are a lot worse than me and just camp the first hook. It's been pretty awful, honestly.

    Just going to lump both of those into the same block of response this time, since it's the same answer- the MMR doesn't incentivise this. It's not a progression system.

    Now, I do have sympathy in that it's going to be very hard to actually get that through to the majority of the playerbase who keep thinking that getting more kills = some kind of reward, but it's also not something that the MMR system could fix even if it made the changes that you're suggesting. It's just not what an MMR system is for, if you want to incentivise altruistic play and disincentivise strategies like camping, that has to come from somewhere else within the game.

    The good news is that there is a framework in place for that already- the incentive system actually already exists, it's just a bit lacklustre: the emblem system. Personally, I think the simplest and neatest fix for people playing selfishly, especially survivors, would be to give the emblem system a little sprucing up so it becomes far more obviously the progression system people keep wrongfully assuming the MMR system is meant to be, give it some more rewards and more overt feedback for when you perform well within the emblem system.

    On the killer side, the devs have mentioned some basekit changes to aid in reducing facecamping, though I obviously can't speculate on how effective they'll be.

    in How the MMR works, and why what Patrick said makes absolute sense (from a dev POV) Comment by jesterkind

  • @[Deleted User] said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2789810#Comment_2789810

    The current system is evaluating "skill" and, hell, even "winning" based on a definition of skill that most players would not accept. Would you consider it a "win" if the killer 3ks but you escape? I certainly would not. I'd say "we got stomped, but at least I got out". The current system is also saying that the teammate who gives up in a winnable match and instead hides in a locker until the hatch spawns is actually more skillful than the people actually trying to win chases and do gens. It's saying that the teammate who never goes for saves during the EGC is actually more skilled, no matter how free the save is or how many teammates they could have helped escape.

    I'm sure the number the devs are getting from MMR is accurate enough, but only at predicting whether a given survivor will survive the trial. It does nothing to predict how. As a result, you'll see "skilled" survivors who happen to play altruistically with the same MMR as much less skilled survivors who play selfishly. By "skilled" here, I mean a pretty generic definition that an average player might use; survivors with good game sense, who do objectives, don't waste time, and chase well.

    The result of this that these skilled, altruistic players get consistently screwed over by their teammates. MMR creates frequent situations where a skilled, altruistic player run an over-matched killer for five minutes and then get left to die on the first hook, because their teammate was too scared and/or selfish to go for an easy save. That's one of the main problems with the current system. If you play DBD as a team game, then, your reward is frequently getting paired with selfish potatoes. It's a much worse experience than the old pip system was, where the only concern was "are they good (but actually good; not just selfish), do they play a lot, or both"?

    My other comments get more into the unfun behaviors that the current system incentivizes: leaving your teammates to die the second you know you can get out, slugging for the 4k, camping the first hook, etc.

    ---

    I don't think it would be very hard to change the algorithm to consider team survival instead of individual survival. Just add/deduct a certain amount of points from the killer based on the average MMR of the survivor team, then proportionally add/deduct those points to/from the survivors based on their individual MMRs. The only thing I can think of that could be tricky is that survivors can theoretically requeue and even finish a new match before the result of the previous match is final, but it shouldn't be that big of a deal to work this out. One solution would be keeping the MMR completely normalized around a set number, for example, and base your analytics on percentiles rather than hard numbers. Not ideal, but an acceptable floor. Lots of room for improvement over my off-the-cuff brainstorming, especially when doing nothing is hurting gameplay.

    So, there are two problems with what you're describing as flaws with the current system.

    1: They happened before! The absolute worst you can say about the current system is that it didn't fix people playing like cowards, but since it'd be kind of nuts to expect it to - it's just a matchmaking system, it's not supposed to be fixing balance or player behaviour issues - I'm not really going to entertain that as a genuine point. People have always played the way that would guarantee their own win, that hasn't changed. Also, regarding the point about a 3K where you get out - yes, you won that. Personal win conditions don't have to be the same as the game's actual win condition, and this game is a great example of why; your goal as survivor is to escape, that's it, but you might find it more entertaining to take the risk and help your teammates leave. Hell, some people actually prefer losing so their team can win!

    2: The cheap and cheesy strategies you're describing should elevate someone's MMR. Especially the killer tactics- you should, as killer, be elevated to higher skill brackets if you're using cheap tactics like facecamping and such, because then you'll go up against survivors who stand a higher chance of being able to handle it instead of facing newbies who get completely stomped by it. This principle applies to survivor, too- if you win a lot, you go against better opponents, and if you're winning by hiding and playing it safe that'll eventually stop working.

    --

    Yes, I agree, it probably wouldn't be very hard - though neither of us have any way of knowing that for sure - but it's also unnecessary. Why fix what isn't broken? If it does turn out after the current issues with matchmaking are fixed that there is a problem with how the number is calculated, sure, I think looking at team results is a fine first step, but we have no reason to believe that's the case right now.

    in How the MMR works, and why what Patrick said makes absolute sense (from a dev POV) Comment by jesterkind

  • @[Deleted User] said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2768454#Comment_2768454

    But why have MMR at all if it's not meant to reflect player skill? Is the goal not to have better killers play against better survivors and vice versa? At that point the old system of rank-based matchmaking, while flawed, is still a better system to base matchmaking on. Even if you want to use kills and escapes as a proxy for everything else in the game, it should absolutely consider kills and escapes for the whole team, not the individual player. @SilentShepherd makes a great analogy to +/- in basketball and I completely agree that this is what MMR should be based on. I'm fine with keeping it to kills/escapes if so, though.

    For example, let's say you're the only survivor to die in a 1k. The system should consider that a +1 for every member of the survivor team. Conversely, let's say you're the only survivor to escape in a 3k. The system should consider that a -1 for every member of the survivor team. This would make matchmaking more directly based on player skill while also incentivizing good behavior for survivors. For example, let's say you're in a situation with three survivors left alive and the gates open. One survivor is hooked, one is injured and getting chased, and one is healthy. In the current system, if the healthy survivor just leaves, MMR increases their rating. In my proposed system, if the healthy survivor just leaves, they're punished; they'd almost certainly be the only survivor, meaning everyone on the team would get a -1. Let's say they went back, got the unhook, and took a hit for the injured survivor in the chase so that they could escape. Even if they died as a result, then, they'd get a 0, which would be better than the rating for just leaving (and rightly so).

    This would even be a simpler system and one that is more representative of what the actual game is. It's not four individual survivors each having a 1v1 battle with a killer. It's a team of four survivors having a 4v1 battle with the killer. Each team member has the ability to make or break the outcome for the rest of the team. This should be reflected in MMR.

    It does reflect player skill, it just isn't evaluating your personal skill based on one game. Skill in this instance isn't being used to refer to how skilfully you evaded the killer, or even how much skill you show in the macro game of going for saves at the right time and working on the right generators, but rather your skill at consistently winning.

    Any one play you make could be a fluke. The system isn't interested in that, it wants to know where you're at overall, and that's where the controversial statement from the devs come in- if your skilful plays aren't consistently getting you to win, then the system doesn't view them as skilful because the point is to achieve a roughly 50% chance of winning the game it puts you in.

    Regarding your other points about how the system could work, it seems a bit complicated for not much reward? We don't have any reason to disbelieve the devs when they say the number they get from MMR is accurate, we know which part is broken and it's not the kill/escape based number, so why bother putting in all that work when what we have seems to work?

    in How the MMR works, and why what Patrick said makes absolute sense (from a dev POV) Comment by jesterkind

  • You didn't actually list any of the things that supposedly make this game a complete mess, though...?

    in Can we all just agree that this game is in a complete mess? All I see as options is this read below. Comment by jesterkind

  • Bleed out maybe, though you'd run into people attempting to maliciously lower people's MMR by forcing a bleed out- but since that's rare, I think it's justifiable.

    Moris and EGC kills absolutely should count, though- those are either a kill you earned in the case of moris, or a failure to escape in the case of the EGC.

    in What should count as a kill Comment by jesterkind

  • Your maths is sound as far as I'm aware, but I think this is focusing a little too much on that one aspect of the perk- as Mandy said, it's still going to have the buffed +100% stagger and the 16m hook aura cloaking, so I think the abusable portion being worse is pretty fair.

    It may definitely still end up being that it'll need something akin to the buff you proposed, but that part of the perk is not the only part and isn't the only thing it's supposed to be doing for you when you equip it.

    in Some Boil Over Maths (and why the upcoming change is bad) Comment by jesterkind

  • Got mine- they've clearly managed to identify some of the problem, if nothing else.

    in New Tweet: Shards at Last? Comment by jesterkind

  • Agreed- I'm pleased at the inventiveness, I would've just scaled the number back down myself. It's nice to see the perk still get to be viable and impactful without being abusable or overtuned.

    in Oh Thank The Entity On The Boil Over Change! Comment by jesterkind

  • Got my shards just now, worth double-checking for everyone else I think!

    in Bubba shards Comment by jesterkind

  • Nah, I don't check profiles. Only time I leave a lobby is when my ping spikes up by several hundred MS, which with this internet is always a possibility.

    in Do You Dodge? Comment by jesterkind

  • @PlaysByShady said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2786383#Comment_2786383

    "It's helpful to remember that the point of the matchmaking system isn't to determine who's more skilful- it was a mistake of them to use the word "skill" in the name, even if it is still accurate when you're looking at aggregate batches of MMR brackets instead of individual games."

    I don't think it was a mistake to use the word "skill" - it's an accurate enough term that's been in use for decades (I referenced TrueSkill in my OP which is 20+ years old).

    The mistake was not recognising that the general community would understand something else from the term "skill", and not catering the language accordingly.

    It's all well and good for BHVR to refer to "skill" internally... the devs know what they're talking about, and in fairness, it's the most accurate short-hand term (anyone who disagrees, please suggest an alternative). But if you do any PR - including live-streams - then there's a degree of responsibility on you to understand your audience and understand how they'll interpret your words. I think this was the mistake Patrick fell into.

    As a dev, everything Patrick said made complete sense to me. But to my non-dev friends, he was full of contradictions and making because they didn't understand the background... and unfortunately as a community, the masses are too immature to recognise that it might be them who's not understanding. It's much easier to say "developer = dumb" which is the trap too many fall into.

    Yeah, to be clear that is what I meant- it wasn't wrong to use the term because it still makes sense in context, but using it for public-facing descriptions was imo a mistake because of the loaded associations that it has.

    Simply calling it an MMR instead of SBMM would've alleviated some of the strain- not all of it, but a little bit.

    in How the MMR works, and why what Patrick said makes absolute sense (from a dev POV) Comment by jesterkind

  • @Smuk said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2787044#Comment_2787044

    I love your wording with a pinch of political spiciness.

    Yes. Nobody enjoys the current system nor how the mmr is calculated. People want to play game for fun, to chill. Not to have over and over a sweaty matches, where after a few games you get exhausted and need something else.

    Have a look at steam charts and the active player base drop.

    And SBMM has nothing to do with it?

    Killer pick & kill rates were suddenly for whole playerbase, why is classical high mmr list missing?

    Question around K:S ratio was dodged. For what reason there wasnt at least average on daily basis - different timezones and prime times.

    SBMM is least important thing that dbd needs.

    If you do not see any other problems and the adaptation of SBMM is the best thing ever.

    Then I feel sorry for you honestly

    I dont care about future SBMM updates as there is a valid bhvrs TM of “soon”.

    But the current SBMM + lack of killers (queue times says all) will never work as intended.

    ...Genuinely not sure what "political spiciness" is in this context, and I'm not being facetious there.

    So, people still can play the game to chill- and in the cases where they can't, MMR has nothing to do with it, most of the time it's just the game's current balance problems and those existed before the MMR did. Regarding the Steam charts, I'm pretty sure the game's still going up- last time I checked we're still above the playercount of this time last year. Playercounts go up and down all the time- and while a massive drop would be semi relevant to this conversation, it's not really the case here, at least to my understanding.

    The killer pick rate chart also seems kind of irrelevant? I don't know why they didn't show that this time around, there could be any number of reasons. I can say that the question about Killer/Survivor ratio was not dodged, though, it was answered very conclusively and very concretely- there isn't a static K/S ratio because it changes depending on time of day, region, and a whole host of other factors. There's no reason not to believe that.

    Like I don't mean to be rude but I really don't see how anything you just said is relevant, beyond a general "people don't like it", which is pretty circumstantial at best. Most people don't like MMR, it's true, but a whole heck of a lot of those people also don't understand the MMR, so I don't think their opinion really counts for much if we're talking about how the system functions. The only other point you're making is that the game is unbalanced, which... has nothing to do with MMR?

    in How the MMR works, and why what Patrick said makes absolute sense (from a dev POV) Comment by jesterkind

  • @Smuk said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2787013#Comment_2787013

    Is it? Please explain me how you would nerf Pig, so I cannot do cheesy tactic ?

    Please also explain how after all nerfs, the survivors will have to be nerfed.

    Please explain me, how SWF who prefer to sweat gens using such builds and brand new parts is not a problematic at getting a balance?

    The definition of MMR should be the same way treated as in a hockey you determine MVP and not by shots and goals determine who won.

    SBMM is not applicable in this game. Balance will never be achieved.

    SWF will always have advantage and will have more escapes then deaths.

    As long as you can spread 2by2 on gens. As long as you can pressure gens on one side, not bother much on healing as you can rely on Adrenaline. It will always be unbalanced game.

    Killer cannot down as fast as gens can be done.

    It is asymetric game. How can if everybody have 1000 MMR the game be balanced with 1000:4000 MMR + balancing it around 2K 2E.

    The ratio of 1:4 is far from achieved. The ratio between time and balance of lobbies will never be optimal.

    BHVR is delusional, where they look in wrong direction of where the development of the game should be focused.

    SBMM is Patricks baby. And ofc he will defend it until the last drop

    I'm not... entirely sure what your point is? It seems like you want the matchmaking system to take current balance problems into account, which is a pretty bad idea- if you base it on things like that, you'd have to keep updating the MMR system to accommodate whenever things are fixed.

    Unless you're saying that a matchmaking system can never work because the game won't ever be truly balanced, in which case... sure, but surely at that point it doesn't matter what matchmaking system they use if nothing could ever work...?

    in How the MMR works, and why what Patrick said makes absolute sense (from a dev POV) Comment by jesterkind

  • @Smuk said:

    3 games in a row I decided to use AFK Pig strat. So with video tape addon, i went stealth and body blocked one of the box.

    Match 1: 3K 1E

    Two head pops, downed third which did a suicide on hook. Next to 4th hatch spawned.

    Match 2: 4K

    3x head pop, 4th gave up

    Match 3: 4K

    2x head pop. Downed and hooked third. Coincidentally gates opened so with the hook bloodwarden procced. Went toward the 4th guy, downed him via noed.

    Ive put 0 effort and by the BHVR definition of my gameplay I deserve to be in highest MMR

    Not quite- by BHVR's definition of your gameplay, what you deserve is to be going against stronger survivors who'll do a better job against cheese strats.

    Even if they can't with this strat specifically, surely you see how that's a problem with Pig's addons and not with the MMR system, right?

    in How the MMR works, and why what Patrick said makes absolute sense (from a dev POV) Comment by jesterkind

  • Unfortunately, the game isn't really built in such a way that seeing the killer in the lobby wouldn't be abusable. Maybe if loadouts were locked after you got into a lobby, but even then, if it's a stealth killer that's far too much info.

    in Would you like to see which killer you're going to face in the lobby? Comment by jesterkind
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