gantes
gantes
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I think the easiest way to balance MoM is by making it a pseudo exhaustion perk (causes exhaustion when used, cannot proc while exhausted).
The only problem I have with MoM is the potential to stack with exhaustion perks. I don't think it's problematic by itself, I think it's problematic when combined with Adrenaline/Dead Hard/both.
I think it's a bit ridiculous when it procs after Borrowed Time, but there's no easy/clean way to fix it I guess.
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Because unless you're Nurse or Billy, you heavily depend on snowball and stupid survivors to win.
As simple as that.
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When all you know how to do vs a killer is loop, it's obvious you're gonna dislike going against Spirit.
There's more to the game than that, you know. Sometimes you gotta adapt. And unlike Nurse, who is only limited by her player's skill since it's all about precision with her, Spirit is actually VERY mindgame-able. Some killers you gotta loop, some you gotta mindgame. Mindgaming is harder, that's why Spirit is a strong killer.
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In the last few days I've been getting Distrurbed Ward a lot, both as killer and survivor.
As killer it sucks.
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@DocOctober said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/456127#Comment_456127
My point exactly. People not understanding statistics should not interpret them (looking at OP)
Most of the games including swf have duos, not 3 or 4-man teams, which DRAMATICALLY contrasts with the forum's mentality of "every game is a 3-4man swf that bullies me". My point still stands.
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@Zefier said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/455770#Comment_455770
I don't think it's an excuse with most players, I think it's because those few SWF matches REALLY sting and stand out, which makes them feel a lot more common as opposed to the numerous forgettable mindless games.
I mean, what are you going to remember more? The five games where you went 2 kills and 2 escapes and it was just kinda shrug worthy? Or one where you were clearly against coordinated SWFs who unhook eachother the moment you turn your back, are doing gens at a blistering speed, and every move you do is being countered by three other guys?
I know as a new player, the first time I ran into that I'll never forget it. It was probably the worst experience I had on the game, but I also recognize it's not the majority of games, but it *feels* like it's more games then it should be just because it stands out so much. That one match felt like Ten, while the other matches felt like less than one.
Perspective I guess, you know? The logical side vs the lizard side of the brain.
...But I'm sure there's some killers using it as an excuse too, but, I wouldn't paint it with such a broad brush.
Yes, it's the same principle as remembering all the times MoM/Adrenaline/BT cost you a lot of time, pressure and kills and forgetting about all the times where they were minor annoyances.
That's why I love game stats and hope the devs do more of it.
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Kill/escape rates per map would be interesting, especially on the most controversial ones (Coldwind, Haddonfield, Disturbed Ward)
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I have thousands of hours in League of Legends and I thought that was my personal hell in terms of toxicity.
Nowadays I play LoL mostly to chill after some DBD games. That's how bad it is in my experience.
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@MegMain98 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/447104#Comment_447104
Mother’s Dwelling isn’t too bad as a bullshit zone but Disturbed Ward is literally the worst. The middle building can literally be an infinite at times.
Don’t even get me started on Springwood and Haddonfun.
There aren’t too many dead zones unless you drop every pallet super quickly. Although MacMillan maps can be unforgiving on survivors with a lack of pallets, specifically Shelter Woods.
Springwood and Haddonfield are the only maps in which I always concede some generators because some areas are simply not worth it to patrol.
Disturbed Ward too tbh. Like jfc sometimes there are F O U R safe pallets inside the main building. Until you get rid of all of them the survivors are already waiting to tbag you at the gates.
Now, I'm curious. For diehard survivor mains over there, which maps do you hate the most? I play survivor too, but I haven't noticed that big a difference between most maps, except for the survivor favored ones. It'd be nice to have some perspective on your side.
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This should be determined by where the fountains are.
If there is a fountain away from most of the objectives she has to patrol, there is no reason not to cleanse. The worst thing for a Plague is deciding between travelling across the map to get her power and losing all the objective pressure she has or to just not grab her power at all.
Cleansing in a fountain close to where all the action is tends to be a no-no though.
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@SmokePotion said:
I've said it before, and I'll say it again.
MoM is OP. Any chase extender is. Until they manage to extend out the game a little, by adding an objective like finding a part to start generator repairs, they will stay that way.
It's not that the perk itself is OP. It's rather balanced for what it does. It's that the objectives go to fast, and that extra loss of momentum is serious for the killer.
Yep.
Survivors already have a lot of tools to extend chases using their own skills. When you insert a mechanic that extends chases regardless of the player's skill, it is bound to become a problem.
The way that it is absurdly strong against many killers while being useless against others also reflects on poor design.
It's a poorly designed, braindead Dead Hard.
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I think there are just as many total bullshit zones as dead zones, so wheh you play each side it always seems that the game is screwing you over.
Mother's Dwelling as survivor and Disturbed Ward as killer come to mind.
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@Warlock_2020 said:
@gantes that is something that has been baffling me for a long time. All the "feedback" on this forum is often laden with a heavy dose of speculation about how often killers kill and survivors live. A simple monthly stat roll out would show whether there is a lot to do about nothing, or a real problem. Quite frankly, it would possibly make things more civil as well.
WARNING!! THIS NEXT PART IS PURELY HYPOTHETICAL AND NOT MEANT TO BE AN ASSUMPTION OF FACT!!
If we were to see that survival rates were 35% and the stated goal was 50%, and a perk like MoM boosted the rate to 40%, there would be little bitching room about the perk. It would be doing its job, but not unbalanced. But, we don't get that information. So it could be swinging the stats too far, thus creating imbalance. Then Thanos has to snap his fingers again.
Exactly. As much as, for example, the DS change was necessary, we never got to know how it affected the game in numbers.
Same with the Legion update. How are we supposed to know the effect of the change if we don't have data? I'd personally be willing to bet that non Frank's mixtape builds will rise in kill rate. But guess what, we'll never know.
All we have is "we're waiting for data" and "our data shows the change was good." And nothing else. The data exists, so we should have access to at least parts of it.
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@twistedmonkey said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/446145#Comment_446145
I suppose it's nice to have but it can also create problems.
After stats have been published a lot of the times they have been met with ridicule about how they are false, why one side needs buffs, how it's due to many factors like survivors giving up on first hook, killers giving the hatch etc.
No matter what BHVR say this community tends to try and bend it to what suits their mindset and argument so having them there constantly could fuel that even more if the balance could be always seen and shifts even over a small window of time.
With that being said it would be nice to see stats when they introduce things like MoM for example, if the stats showed killers were getting more and more kills and it was more heavily in favour of them then than before then the addition of another free health state perk may have been more understandable for the more reasonable players.
And if the release of MoM didn't affect the kill count all that much, people could ask for QoL changes that make it feel better to go against the perk than demanding nerfs.
I think that no matter how the community reacts, transparency is always the way to go. It feels better to read precise numbers than "well, our data says..." etc.
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@twistedmonkey said:
The only stats they generally have told were each killers sacrifice ratios, most used perks and the split of solo to swf ratio.
This is from over a year ago posted by not_queen on reddit, only games starting with 4 players in ranks 1-5
Killer and % Sacrificed
HillBilly: 60%
Trapper: 56%
Pig: 56%
Cannibal: 55%
Nurse: 54%
Huntress: 53%
Hag: 52%
Shape: 51%
Wraith: 49%
Nightmare: 47%
https://www.reddit.com/r/deadbydaylight/comments/8901x5/monday_dev_qa_thread_april_02_2018/dwqw9pa/
We could do with an updated Q&A for more recent stats to be honest as many things have changed since then.
See, this is the kind of stat that should be widely known.
Would I feel so ######### after being shafted all game long if I knew that I most likely have a ~50% sacrifice rate overall? No.
That's extremely crucial for maps too. I feel like DCing (I don't though) every time I get Haddonfield as killer, but iirc the Coldwind maps are the only ones that are hugely survivor sided, in numbers.
How can we be expected to provide objective feedback to the game balance and trust the devs when they say their decisions are based on what happens in game if we don't, well, know what really happens in game?
@Peanits could you clarify the thought process behind not releasing this information a bit?
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It makes no sense imo. They can't possibly expect us to have reasonable discussions about game balance if we have no idea about what consistently happens, in numbers. That's why the forums are flooded with "x and y are OP because they feel bad to play against" and "I'm literally tunneled and camped every other game".
This needs to be adressed.
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I think anyone with half a brain and a bit of honesty can agree that the stacking of freebies is a problem.
Whether or not MoM in a vacuum is toxic design is up for debate.
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Oh my god the ######### endgame starts after opening the gate what is so HARD about LEAVING THE GAME instead of teabaging with a flashlight ffs
and it slows down if there's someone hooked
two minutes is 40s more than what it takes to do a ######### generator solo, stop bitching
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I play both. I feel like survivors are often less punished for their mistakes, because there are other 3 people to help. HOWEVER, they're often less rewarded for their good plays too, because, well, there are other 3 people to bring them down.
But playing killer is always more stressfull for that exact reason. You're in much more control of your success, that's true, but mistakes tend to be much more punishing. Playing a race against the clock the way killers have to is just so much more stressfull than anything about playing survivor.
Also, I feel like the win conditions are a bit different in a weird way. When I play survivor, I'm generally happy with escaping and that's it. Even if I depip IDC because escaping -feels- like winning, at least to me. As killer, I have 0 kill games that feel satisfying and 4ks that are boring af.
I think that's the main reason for there being more complaints from killer mains. It's just more stressfull. And it's not about personalities or anything like that, it's the nature of the game. Killer feels good when you are in control, and that's why things that aren't overpowered can be HUGELY frustrating (like flashlights), because they take that control away. I think Survivor by nature is 1000% more relaxing to play. Not that it's easy, it's just more relaxing.
EDIT: and now that I think about it, that's why NOED is so powerful probably. It gives you a lot of control at a part of the game where you generally don't have any. Not arguing for or against the perk, I just think that's why.
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No, I paid special attention to that part.
Keeping down to 24m as a 115ms killer is already useful, and the +8m during chases should help with tracking quite a bit when you're using FF.
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Can't wait for the update to go live.
Maybe some new legion mains will replace the current "I want my free braindead downs" ones.
Dying to try Monitor and Abuse, it seems like it will be amazingly good on them.
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@[Deleted User] said:
You can mitigate to a degree, but you can't stop it if that's what survivors decide to do. I mostly play Spirit and Freddy.
Basic rules that go for any killer:
- Leave your ego at the loading screen. The survivor that jumps out at you right off the bat and clicks their flashlight wants you to chase them. They'll have MoM, Adrenaline, and maybe an insta-heal. Let them follow you around trying to get your attention. They'll unhook as soon as you look like you're going to leave the hook. They'll always have Borrowed Time. Hook them last to mitigate MoM.
- You want to stop the gen rush? You can't do that if you're eating pallet after pallet on the opposite side of the map from where all the gens are. Stay mindful of the situation and don't be afraid to give up on an unfavorable chase to pressure gens.
- Semi-related to point number 1, and maybe specific to SWF. The designated runners will have flashlights or medkits. They're the strongest in chases and will typically have you eating pallets for 3 gens. Prioritize the survivors with toolboxes. They're usually the gen jockeys and drop like flies in a chase.
- Slug more. Slugs are a great way to get momentum back. A hooked survivor occupies a minimum of 2 survivors at a time (the hooked person and the rescuer). A slug plus a chase occupies a minimum of 3 (the slug, the rescuer, and the new chase). This also plays into the no healing meta. When you waste survivors' time, they tend to rush and forgo healing. You can end up with 2 or 3 injured survivors on gens and quickly snowball it.
This. Focus the weaker targets. As soon as someone deliberately gets my attention and starts baiting me, I ignore that person 1000% and only go for them last/when they mess up trying to get you to chase them and overstep.
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Why would they change it now? They're just waiting for the Ash DLC sales to slow down for good. Then they nerf it.
It's like you've never played a multiplayer game with purchasable characters/skins before.
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I love both. They're the most strategically satisfying killers in the game imo.
With Hag, you only need to learn how to set up a healthy web of traps and completely control one side of the map. If you don't mind conceding the early game a bit, she is the mid game queen imo. When there are like 3 gens left to repair, if you did your job right, your chases should be ending very quickly, and in my opinion she is one of the best killers at snowballing after you get momentum.
Spirit, on the other hand, is strong for the entire duration of the game. I don't think she spikes or falls off particularly at any time in the match. And she's 100% about chase mindgames. The mindgames are generally stacked in her favor though, if you use sounds and collision for your advantage. And she has tons and tons of fun addons, I don't think any of her addons are bad or useless, pretty much all of them can be viable. She is a bit more addon dependant than Hag though.
Just play both. They're the most strategic-heavy killers in very different ways, probably my favorite killers along with Huntress. And they're both high tier (I place Spirit at top 3 and Hag at somewhere between 4 and 6, they're both at least viable at all ranks).
EDIT: and bodyblock Hag is the best troll build in the game, change my mind. SO satisfying when it works.
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I only use that build when I'm tilted and need a braindead game to relax.
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Imagine posting this discussion in 2019.
Look, kiddo. The punishment is already there. You camp, you both depip AND gain no bloodpoints whatsoever, unless the survivors are particularly bad at diving hooks and keep giving you downs.
Until there are ranked rewards, that's not gonna change. If the killer for some reason wants to secure one kill no matter what, you either accept your fate and watch your teammates steamroll the guy or hope they dive the hook (which is not hard at all to do if 2 or 3 people come around.
There is no solution to that mechanic-wise. Every possible solution would be abusable as #########. As soon as ranks matter, this will happen less.
Oh, and you're not entitled to an escape because you "played well", whatever that means. You're entitled to an escape as soon as you step out the gate. Before that, the game has other ways of rewarding you for objectives and surviving chases. Escaping is another part of the game.
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@Someissues said:
The biggest change is this one
- The Deep Wound timer progress is no longer reduced by regular Feral Frenzy attacks.
Legion will no longer be able to deal with looping after this, and as a M1 Killer if he gets stunned he loses all his power, you must not stop/ respect pellets
All the nerfs would be fine if this one is not in, but with this, it's overkill
Translating: "Legion will no longer be able to win every single chase in the match with no counterplay whatsoever and the player will need to actually use their brain during chases."
Sounds like a neat change to me.
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I'm generally in favor of promoting changes thay discourage toxic behaviur, I think that looping encourages camping and tunneling (securing kills) and vice versa, and I'm all for changes that encourage people to play differently.
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I thought the 3 min timer was fine at first, but then it ocurred me that doing one gen by yourself with no toolbox or great skill checks takes 80 minutes, which is less than half of that. By DBD standards 3 minutes is an eternity.
I get that the point of the change is to stop survivors from taking the game hostage, but I see it as an oportunity to improve the late game experience, which is quite stale right now imo
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@fluffybunny said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/428598#Comment_428598
@AsheruSwiftwind I was under the impression that Nurse was bugged 'cause hers was technically an M1. M1 is supposed to trigger stacks.
IIRC M1 special hits like blink attacks, Wraith surprise attacks, Spirit's grudge etc were bugged and are meant indeed to count as MoM stacks. M2 attacks such as Huntress' hatchets and Plague's puke aren't.
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That's just adorable
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@HURRI_KAIN said:
MoM is a ONE TIME DH. With prerequisites, and a penalty of killer seeing you afterwards. I really for the life of me can't see why people are losing their mind over such a minor perk. Yes if they get it prepped, they could have two DH in one chase - ONCE in the match. It's really not that big of a deal. DH isn't even judged as a strong perk according to most, but this is not even as good as DH. Not to mention that insta downs are not affected by MoM. Some people just want to whine.
DH is an exhaustion perk, requires timing and skill. can be baited, doesn't give the survivor a sprint burst after the hit, doesn't leave the killer stuck in the post hit cooldown afterwards.
It's most definitely not minor. Besides ignoring a hit, it can essentially stack one exhaustion perk boost after the other, which was patched out ages ago for obvious reasons. Don't downplay it, please.
Also, since it doesn't share in the exhaustion cooldown, it can be used alongside DH, which exacerbates the perk's main problem even further, which is stacking with other safety nets.
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Besides, please consider that if the killer chased you for the entire match, your teammates most likely safety pipped/depipped as well.
The way I see it, the game should reward, ranking wise, Survivors who actually play the game in more than one way. This isn't a MOBA where each player is assigned a role. The tag "Runner" doesn't show up to anyone in the loading screen. I definitely don't think someone who escapes should depip, but if the killer doesn't down you for 5 gens, they're probably bad, and you didn't do anything out of the ordinary by running from them, so you shouldn't pip either.
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I find it VERY hard to believe that the killer chased you for all five gens straight without you deliberately trying to get his attention and not wanting to lose him, which is how you should play.
Way too many Ochido videos can do that to a survivor main I guess
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As many people have mentioned, when looked into in a vacuum, these perks are mostly fine. The problem is when you put them all together. DS+MoM+Borrowed Time+Adrenaline etc can be enough to destroy a killer's end game.
I think there should be some degree of restriction with these perks, especially the interactions with MoM. It should not, in my opinion, be allowed to have its effects happen after Adrenaline and DS. Having a second life to lean on is fine imo (especially considering that it only triggers once per match), the problem is when it's a third or fourth life.
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If the killer managed to anihilate your team with 3 perks max before you do the gens, yeah, you deserve to be NOED'd in the face.
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Yes, it's clearly a buff for kills during the end game. Survivors gain literally nothing with the changes. Which is needed IMO since killers were powerless after the gates were powered and the game could be dragged for ages and held hostage etc. I think the changes will be for the better.
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Why would NOED and Rancor be too strong if you can just, you know, leave the game like the timer will encourage you to?
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I love the hatch part. Hatch stand-offs were getting ridiculous.
Besides, there's also the fact that skeleton key into 3 early escapes can sort of be countered with the changes.
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@PuppetLivesMatter said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/425643#Comment_425643
I play killer too but not so much as survivor. Once I played with my former main (Hag in fact). I putted a trap near the hatch and then I chased one survivor and hooked him. I had BBQ and I saw the last near the hatch, he triggered the trap and I catched him before he could escape. In the end game chat he called me "BBQ abuser", it was hilarious
The only thing I love more than being called a BBQ abuser is being called a filthy camper when I hook someone after the gates are opened and don't leave the hook area because there are three other survivors literally dancing around me trying to rescue the other guy.
I mean, sure. Let me stare at the wall and count to 10 while you guys unhook your teammate, heal them up and teabag me at the gate.
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@PuppetLivesMatter said:
Once I faced a Trapper who facecamped a teammate 'cause "she looped him and stunned him" and "he hated that". It was so ridiculous, the rest of us escaped. Other matches I saw killers complaining and acussing me for going on SWF (I play solo), other ones for using Adren, Balanced Landing. Some killer mains just want to be the game so easier and live their lifes complaining about DBD, the only thing we can do is ignore them.
I play more killer than survivor and even if I get absolutely shat on during the match, I only say something besides gg in the end game chat if people start being toxic for no reason whatsoever.
But yeah, there are extremely toxic people from both sides. Multiplayer games are bound to be like this, especially when the game mechanics sometimes favor a stressfull gameplay, like it often happens in DBD.
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@NuclearBurrito said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/425591#Comment_425591
@FengMinEqualsWin I always operate on the assumption that everyone else is going to be attempting to play optimally. In this meta that means looping, thus if I drop a survivor because I'm being looped then that just means not only do I loose the time from that chase but it also means I haven't solved the problem as the next survivor I find will loop me instead.
Without a Killer who can bypass the issue you will inevitably get looped.
For the record I play Spirit, which is both a Killer who bypasses the issue AND a Killer who can be juked making her one of the most fun Killers to play as or against.
That's why I love Spirit. You might win the chase, fine. But you'll do so by outplaying me, not entering a chase which is pretty much an endless flowchart of optimal movement.
I think the game would be more enjoyable for killers if it were less about constant time management and more about mindgames. That's how the strongest killers play anyway.
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I think it's more about how chases are unfun to play as killer when you're getting looped and how time consuming it can be, especially when gens go down so fast.
Loops are mostly beatable though. Just unfun and uninspired, but not to the point of making me dislike playing killer.
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Every time new ToU pops up on your game screen after a patch (as it always does) and you click on the "accept" button, you're subject to the new terms. So nah. Quit it with the bs
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Franklin's is a reactive perk, and the opportunity cost for running it is pretty large. It's a slot you're not using for chase power, map control or information gathering. Besides, it's not like the item is destroyed when you knock it out, the survivor can find it again if they really want to. I think it's only worth running if you see something like 4 toolboxes on the same team, especially considering you need to knock the item down early, otherwise the damage will already have been done.
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@Sinner said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/425098#Comment_425098
Except you don't have any control of what your fellow teammates do and no communication. So you don't know if they are cleansing totems and how many have been cleansed.
this is a T E A M game for survivors sadly
if you, as a member of a 4 person team, expect to have as much agency as the solo player you're facing, you know very little about game design
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both Quentin and Dwight are cute but how come no one mentioned BEARDED JAKE ffs
what a man
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The only thing about Billy that is maybe up for debate is the advantage he gets by camera flicking with Q and E instead of the mouse flick. Other than that, he's fine. Balance the other killers around his power level and I'd be happy actually.
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stop. feeding. the. troll
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@Spacemanjr2004 said:
Yeah he literally has like no ability now. Theres nothing special at all about his ability except he can move a little faster after hitting someone. That's essentially what his ability is now and thats super boring and lame
Sure, nothing special about his ability. You know, get hit, life goes on as normal, gets downed out of nowhere while doing stuff because you didn't mend. Just another day in the office.