gantes
gantes
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There's another recent thread with this exact subject and some pretty good points on both sides.
My personal opinion is Spirit is better because she doesn't give a ######### about looping and isn't map dependant. Billy does have more consistent map pressure and an instadown, so he's pretty good too, but Spirit is overall more consistent, especially at higher ranks,
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Meanwhile it's literally impossible to depip as Legion because you get iridescent Chaser and a high Malicious score simply by existing.
The pipping system needs to stop being a joke before ranked rewards.
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You guys are aware that you can play stealthy AND be good at looping at the same time right?
Anyway, the last thing I want is for the game to be darker. I already nearly have an aneurysm playing because I need to turn the brightness up in certain maps, and I'd have to do that even more.
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Viable is a very broad word.
Nurse, Spirit, Billy, Hag, Huntress, Myers and even Plague can perform without add-ons.
If you're talking who's still STRONG without add-ons, Nurse, Spirit, Billy, Huntress and probably Hag fit the bill.
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What I wouldn't find fair was if the killer had no way to know you have a key.
It's pretty basic, really. You, as a survivor, have 3 teammates and one opponent. Being heavily outnumbered, the killer relies desperately on the surprise factor.
Anyone who thinks survivors should see who the killer is before the game starts is absolutely delusional. Boom, there goes half of Myers' effectiveness. Or Wraith's. Or even Spirit's to a certain degree. Think about 4 Calm Spirits because people see the Doctor before the game. Or 4 Iron Wills vs the Spirit. Or 4 flashlights vs the Hag. That would be beyond broken.
On the other hand, killers have four effin survivors to worry about. Certain perks, like Franklin's and Lightborn, are extremely situational. If the killer didn't have the information on the survivors' items before the game starts, they'd be 200% useless. And no piece of information the killer gathers before the game starts is gamebreaking, unlike what it would be if survivors knew who the killer was.
If you bring a dull/skeleton key, you have the means to ignore the game's rules to escape, basically. The killer should know that and play accordingly. If you bring a key, you're immediately the biggest threat for the killer, and you should be subject to be focused. The game is also about strategy, You can't possibly ask to have the ability to open the goddamn hatch with no drawbacks.
Moris and ultra rares are a whole other can of worms, and they need to be reworked. But they're a problem whether the killer sees you with a dangerous item or not.
Claudette has more skins other than full Blendette. Use them.
Remember that DBD is an asymetrical game. Survivors have numbers, situational awareness and the environment. Killers have the element of surprise, the speed and the pre-game knowledge. Stop trying to balance an asymetrical game in a simetrical manner. Thank you.
TL;DR: every decision you make in the lobby can, and will have consequences, especially if they have an impact in-game, because the killer is also a person who wants to win.
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@NeaJovovich said:
DCing an unofficial way to tell the Killer to go F himself.
Legion? Really? Out of the dozen killers, you pick that?
Any nurse over 3 blinks.
Camping killers.
Slugging killers.
Etc.
I don't really care about DCs if it's cuz a Killer player is being nasty. Serves them right.
But all this will be taken care of with the official servers - THANK GOODNESS!
"I don't really care about DCs if it's cuz a Killer player is being nasty. Serves them right."
part. of. the. problem
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@BACKSTABBER said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/65254/the-dc-problem-scottjunds-stream
DC punishment is not the solution, solutions are:
- rewards by not DCs
- making game more exciting/interesting/challenging
- new feats, modes, items, rewards system....
Here's the thing.
Almost every multiplayer game has a punishment for DC. It's pretty standard.
Any game that doesn't is bound to have people exploiting DCing to not derank/not to lose.
I agree that what you said is also necessary, but a punishment for DCing is vital for any online multiplayer game.
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Loops being a problem has more to do with combinations of structures or infinites. Structures like L-wall T-walls are very mindgameable, and isolated shack or jungle gyms don't take that much time. Sure, if you're playing an M1 killer and just try to brute force loops you'll be in trouble, but most structures can be mindgamed.
The problem lies in map generation, multiple structures together, infinites, BS windows etc.
I think the reason why some killers are weak is because they don't to anything properly. Not all killers need to end chases quickly to be viable. Legion is in a pretty OK spot now largely by being able to slow the game down, as they're still very loopable. Clown, on the other hand, isn't top tier, even though his ability is designed around ending chases quickly, because he lacks map pressure. Chases aren't everything in this game.
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@FTSA said:
My only worry is that people will now decide to kill themselves on hook once a punishment for DCing gets added.
That would still suck, but at least the killer gets a hook and the survivor can't DC abuse to rank up.
Assuming rank will actually be worth grinding someday, I think they have to be thinking about how to make rank more rewarding.
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@karbo said:
I think this is in balance. 4 survivors will be able to build 4 pallets for the whole game. 4 pallets of equals 160 sec is the time for the repair of 2 generators, in this situation time is working for the killer. am i wrong?
I don't think it'd be BS. I just think it would be similar to sabo, in which it's either not worth the survivors' time or OP.
I don't think the concept is inherently bad, I'm just not sure if it would be worth doing.
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Just to make it clear, DCing killers suck too. I've had some killers recently disconnecting when Ruin gets destroyed early or when they lose too much time on one survivor. The problem isn't only with survivors.
Everyone should check themselves, not only survivors.
I just so happen to see survs thinking DCing is OK much more often than killers.
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@Poweas said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/496575#Comment_496575
That is really similar to me. Wow. I'd swap Billy and Hag but wow, it's almost identical.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/496551#Comment_496551
@almondbutter I really like that comment, you said that very honestly.
I main Hag, and I think she's really busted in certain mid to late-game scenarios (like, Nurse levels). The only problem I have with her is that generally time not applying pressure in this game hurts you. But after the early game she's a beast.
Also flashlights. Not prevalent enough to make her bad, but it sucks chasing someone on foot after they erased your traps.
But she's still so above the average it's hilarious, especially because people sleep on her.
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@ItsYourBoyGuzma said:
Yes, everyone has realized this.
This is why the majority want dedicated servers in DBD already, we hope it'll fix the DCing problem but to be honest with you i dont have faith in the servers being stable..
I also dont have faith in the devs actually penalizing "certain" people for when they DC.
I'm not sure everyone has realized this tbh. The amount of "We only disconnect because of OP killers" in these forums is concerning.
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That list's without fancy add-ons btw. Assuming the usage of purple/pink add-ons, Spirit could be along with Nurse and both Wraith and Trapper would be better than those on B+. Not to mention Iri Head Huntress.
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Pallets are a limited resource for a reason. I don't think that could ever work as a balanced interaction.
It'd be probably similar to Sabo, which has to be kept very weak otherwise it's unhealthy.
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I'd still place Spirit 2nd. Not by much. Her map pressure is more conditional and she doesn't have an instadown, but she's stronger on loops and more importantly, she's not map dependant. Billy is more effective on open maps, but he suffers a lot on maps like Lery's and The Game, while Spirit's gameplan is relatively unchanged between realms.
But then again, not by much.
This is what my list would look like atm. Huntress would be S- along with Hag if she didn't get violently cucked by some maps (even more than Billy).
The tier names are on purpose because I don't think anyone is bad enough to warrant a C tier placement.
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Or or or we can just wait and see how the Pass is gonna be before raising our pitchforks
Just an idea
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They have already explained it on stream why the times doesn't change with RBTs being worn. If you didn't watch it it's your problem.
I'm actually happier each day with the changes. As I get better at the game, I despise more and more playstyles that reward unskilled players.
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@GrootDude said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/483691#Comment_483691
Harder to juke doesn’t mean she is better, you’re jumping to conclusions too quickly.
That's what other people are trying to argue here. I wasn't the one who brought this up.
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When you guys can find notably good players saying that Spirit is better than Nurse and maybe some footage on top, be my guests.
I've seen plenty of God Nurses mopping the floor with 4-man swfs at rank 1, and that's enough for me.
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Nurse has her ability all the time.
Nurse doesn't give a ######### about structures of any kind.
If you think you can't juke the Spirit you're just a bad survivor.
If you talk to any really good killer in the game they'll tell you the same thing. Your opinion means jack.
Nothing compares to the Nurse's map pressure and the ability to override any defenses survivors might have in chases. The only thing keeping the Nurse from being nigh unbeatable is the player. The Spirit is the second best killer in the game, but it's not even a close gap.
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@TAG said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/483336#Comment_483336
I won't. Not without getting more information to put it into better context.
People taking anecdotal evidence over statistics is always a good think. Keep it up.
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@Poweas said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/483301#Comment_483301
@gantes incorrect, Spirit is better than Nurse at chasing (for me it's hit, phase, hit and find next one with BBQ and I'm just a decent Spirit, not even god tier) and Hag is basically the same, slightly more consistent because she's got traps but on average, they're about the same.
LOL
Sure, if you can't hit your blinks as Nurse Spirit is better
I'm talking about God Nurses, not an average to good player playing Nurse.
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@TAG said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/483328#Comment_483328
Well, don't tell people to watch good players to see how to play Pig right as though that shuts down Pig complaints when one of the more prominent Pig players disagrees with what you say. :P
One prominent player. There are more.
One.
Don't get all your information from one source.
Besides, I'll take a 75% kill rate at ######### rank 1 over anyone's opinion.
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@TAG said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/483265#Comment_483265
I could be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure Ardetha is one of those players who is good with most/all Killers and also happens to play Pig a lot (enough so that BHVR has asked him for his opinion on the state of the Pig).
Yeah, as I said I don't know the guy.
I follow a lot of Scott Jund and even Zubat even though he's more shitpost-y. They're both good at both killer and survivor, that's why I tend to value their opinions on balance a lot.
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That nerf happened because otherwise knocking down a survivor after the gates were powered GUARANTEED a free kill with NO COUNTERPLAY. If you really want kills with no skill or counterplay, you're not a good competitor. Beating an opponent when they can do nothing about it is not skillful. You knock someone down, put a trap, and all you gotta do is stop them from taking the trap out. Bam. Free kill.
It was patched out because your fun and your chances at winning are not more important than anyone else's.
Things are subject to change all the time. Survivors who gained time by looping killers + free escape with old DS got mad when it got changed. But it was unhealthy and needed to go. Same with changing MoM now. Since no one's fun is more valuable than anyone else's, the game needs to be adjusted so that both sides are playing and have a fighting chance, and no-counterplay and unhealthy scenarios need to be removed, period.
EDIT: and the numbers say that Pig doesn't need help now. Numbers>your anecdotal evidence. Deal with it.
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@ShyN3ko said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/483265#Comment_483265
You can still use traps in the late game.
Nope
It's not a merit to calculate a playstyle that removes nearly all counterplay. It's going for the easy way out.
Destroy all 5 totems or just go through the open gate?
You'll become a better player from that.
So i must change my complete playstyle, because the devs delete it.
Then Im main maybe "Basement Trapper".
*next patchnotes*
- Trapper cant place beartraps around the basement
This is a forum and I have a opinion:
"Deleting a ability ingame isnt a good solution".
"Nerf the ability, but dont delete it".
Nothing has been deleted you dolt.
"The Pig changes:
RBTs only become active whenever a generator is completed. Inactive RBTs will no longer trigger when attempting to leave via an exit gate. *NOTE: Initiating the End Game Collapse will not complete generators, but will block them. This means that any inactive RBTs will remain inactive."
If you can read, you'll notice that the only ways survivors will not be prevented from leaving with an RBT on their heads is if you use it A F T E R the gens are all done. Meaning, if you didn't hold on to your traps for the entire game like an idiot, you'll be fine.
Use the traps with 2, 1 gens missing. Easy. You can still play late game Pig.
You just can't play BRAINDEAD late game Pig anymore.
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Have you guys seen a God Nurse play yet?
She can get downs in 10 seconds. No other killer can do that.
There is counterplay for her, to an extent. However, games should ALWAYS be balanced around the highest level, and she's not balanced in the highest level. Even with no add-ons.
A Nurse playing to her maximum potential and not messing up is nigh unbeatable. If you don't think so, you haven't seen true top tier Nurses playing.
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@TAG said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/483215#Comment_483215
The most prominent Pig player I am aware of (Ardetha) thinks she's weak and strongly disapproved of the nerf in question, so idk.
I don't follow that player but good killer players that play all killers, so have a good understanding of the game don't seem to be complaining.
@ShyN3ko said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/483215#Comment_483215
Im a calculate player.
I use all ingame informations and build up my strategy to win the match.
The pig character design is perfect for me.
But there are problems.
I cant calculate RNG.
So i must use the other functions from the RBT.
With endgame piggy,I can calculate and build up my strategy.
This was my playstyle.
And they just delete my playstyle and now I must calculate RNG.
Late game Pig was just the EASIEST way of playing her, because it allowed you to cheat game fundamentals and basic chases and mindgames.
So play another playstyle is cheating.
Next SAW movie.
"All victims escape with a RBT on the head."
Your playstyle didn't get deleted from the game.
You can still use traps in the late game.
You just can't NOED slap people after the gens were done, put traps on everyone and get free kills.
It's not a merit to calculate a playstyle that removes nearly all counterplay. It's going for the easy way out.
I'm pretty sure that if you're a fundamentally good killer player you'll be alright with the Pig changes. You just have to ADAPT. Use your traps a little bit early and stop relying on the part of the game where you essentially lost already to start making moves. You'll become a better player from that.
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I think unbalanced stuff from Survivors come mostly from combinations.
Except for maybe MoM no perk is remotely OP or broken by itself. It's only late game scenarios with DS, BT, Adrenaline, MoM and whatever that are problematic imo, especially on more than one surv. And with the MoM changes coming I don't think those combinations will be problematic anymore. There's clear counterplay on them except MoM. And if you have only one person hooked on the late game as killer while everyone else's still alive, I don't see anything wrong with having to fight a bit to secure that kill. You're not entitled to it, and good, co-ordinated saves should be doable.
Survs have instaheals, which are annoying af, but their secret add-ons are real bad, like beneficial to the killer sometimes with the starting together #########. Meanwhile killers have Ebony Mori, which is just as bad as instaheals. But those are all rare and I see them like 1 out of 25 games so idgaf.
As for counters:
DS has slugging, and if you're camping late game you can go for the rescuer.
BT: go for the rescuer.
Adrenaline: don't overcommit to chases when there's only one gen left. I see killers do that so much; You should be pressuring the remaning generators, and even hooking someone might not be optimal at that stage (a good time for slugging). If you're in a position in which the best play is to overcommit to a chase in the late game, you probably messed up before.
Looping: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8u0jRxN2kQ this is pure gold. You can mindgame nearly every tile in this game. If you start consciously applying this and trying to mindgame tiles instead of running in a straight line, your chases will end a lot faster.
Instaheals: this you just accept and move on lol. It's bullshit, just like Ebony Mori.
The most important: some you win, some you lose. This game's frustrating by nature, and you'll ALWAYS remember the times when you got ######### by strong combinations over the games that were smooth sailing. That's worth for the survivor side as well. The potato teammates 4kill 4gen are more easily remembered than 4man escapes. Failures sting, especially in this game. But if you focus on getting better, even the games you lose will feel less painful. Things like mindgaming, camping less and spreading pressure are effectively more fun than just feeling like you need to kill everyone to have fun, make you pip more, get more bloodpoints and make the game more about skill. You'll have more fun, feel better at the game and become less salty in general. Believe, it worked for me, and I'm a better player on both sides now.
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Playing both sides should be mandatory before you're allowed to start a discussion.
Would prevent a lot of trash from flooding the forums.
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She's not weak.
You were just used to play her in only one way.
Late game Pig was NEVER the most effective way of playing her. Watch any high level player playing Pig at any given moment.
Late game Pig was just the EASIEST way of playing her, because it allowed you to cheat game fundamentals and basic chases and mindgames.
You probably also only use her ambush attack to sneak on survivors and never to mindgame pallets, which is the better use of the ambush attack (for sneaking to survivors it's just better to get up and normal attack them, since it takes a while for the TR and the red stain to come back after you get up). Taking away the roar before the attack would unnecessairily remove counterplay from her ambush.
I recommend you watch good players playing Pig and stepping up your game.
And not trusting NUMBERS AND FACTS just show how little idea you have of what you're talking about.
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I'd love to have Gale in the game.
Ain't gonna happen but a man can dream.
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1. It's less stressful, but you rely on more than just your play for success, which can be frustrating sometimes, but is part of the game.
2. I enjoy playing against more out-there killers that require more than flowchart looping to survive against (Spirit, Hag). I particularly don't enjoy playing against Myers because it's extra stressful and Freddy because it's boring af.
3. Being able to play each match a bit differently. It requires adapting quite a bit, sometimes you just sit doing gens all game because the killer gives no ######### about you and sometimes it's chases nonstop. You never know exactly what you'll be required to do when the game loads. As the killer you always know you gotta do a bit of everything.
4. Yes, moreso when my bf is playing with me because it's more fun. (we don't even pull strats or share too much info or anything, it's just more fun to have company as survivor).
5. I think chases should be more fun, and by that I mean less of the same looping in a lot of matches and more of what it is vs mindgame based killers.
6. It depends, absolute difficulty is difficult to assess. I think it's not any easier or harder than killer, some variables are shifted.
7.Oh killer definitely. As killer you KNOW the game will be interactive for you, as survivor, depending on your team and the killer, you can escape without being chased or die on first hook, so it's not always interactive.
8. To be consistently good yeah. You're not gonna climb by being mediocre as fast as you would with map and objective awareness and looping skills. Since you don't rely only on your own skills as survivor sometimes it feels like it's easier, but it's not. It just has higher variance than killer (sometimes you get carried and sometimes you play crazy well and die, but over time it balances out).
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BHVR-read: senpais noticed us
*Blushes*
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I think the "being chased" indicator in the HUD is a must.
Everything other than that is debatable.
Reading something like "make Bond basekit" is absolutely bonkers.
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And they already said that the DS fiasco was the breaking point for them to change enduring because they either kept under or overshooting it to accomodate values with or without taking enduring into the equation. They specifically refered to DS when talking about it. Again, chill.
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You ######### yahoos
They already said on stream that this change was made so that they can take a look at everything else in this game that could potentially be considered a stun and re-evaluate how much worth they should have.
That means they can look to unify values when they should be the same regardless of enduring or no enduring, and that includes DS.
People creating threads to demand that after they already said so on stream remind me of the classic "Man creates scenario in his head, gets mad about it". Chill.
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Good changes.
Not all perks need to be meta and fit on every single build yknow.
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Yeah the pipping system could use some tweaks. Some killers using their natural playstyle have a really tough time pipping.
Legion just has a really really easy time with Malicious and Chaser, and Gatekeeper to boot since Legion's more about slowing the game down than hooking everyone early, so the games naturally take longer regardless of winning/losing. I don't think I've depipped on Legion even once, even getting no kills, because the emblem system carries my ass.
Meanwhile when I'm playing a more snowbally killer I 3-kill safety pip more often than I should.
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Sabotaging is a gimmicky and problematic playstyle that has to be kept weak for game health reasons. If it gets strong, it warps the game around itself way too much.
Hooks as a core resource don't work.
Hope that solves your problem.
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@RepliCant said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/476631#Comment_476631
This is not a team game, go read the Surivor tutorial manual.
You have the option to work as a team, or to look out for yourself. Do you even read anything ingame?
As a matter of fact I've read every single piece of tutorial in this game. Thing is, that's an illusion of a choice. It's an asymetrical game, and no matter if you want to play ######### Evil Dwight or be the best teammate ever, it always comes down to the fact that, by design, a single survivor will never have the same agency as the killer. If the game balance gets to a point where your chances of survival are completely independent to the other survivors' performance, then it will be terribly unbalanced.
Want to work only for your own survival? Fine. But you'll still have to work towards the same objectives as the other survivors, and you're still a killer's target just as much as them, so how well the other survivors do will, and should affect your chances at survival. As I said, if you want to be solely responsible for your failures and triumphs, go play killer. By design, survivor cannot and will never work that way, and by denying it you're being delusional and thank God your opinion has no bearing on this game's balance.
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@RepliCant said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/476269#Comment_476269
My success has no reflection on the other Survivors.
How is all my other fellow Survivors dying, MY FAILURE? Elaborate please.
Aside from that, the hatch was a broken mechanic that just received another band-aid fix. That's all I got to say anymore on that matter.
It's a team game. If you want to live and die by your own success go play killer.
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@SlinkyJinky said:
But then Killers wouldn't get their guaranteed free win!
What free win
That win after dumpstering your team by killing the other 3 survivors?
Does that sound free?
What about your team finishes the generators before dying like #########. Then you too can get your free win by opening the gate and escaping.
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@LCGaster said:
I reached Rank 1 without using Ruin except for Hag (I didn't level her up enough to unlock it).
It's not necessary, but it's useful to waste some time.
It's not necessary, but if you don't have it the game is even more snowball reliant.
If survivors are playing optimally, you need a truck load of momentum and you also need to not lose a single inch of that momentum if you want a really good game.
With ruin, you don't need that as much.
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All the other perks to slow the game down are objectively worse.
With Thanatophobia, you need 4 injured survivors to slow down a generator from 80 to 95 seconds iirc. Sloppy Butcher is only for healing.
Discordance falls flat if people play optimally and don't repair generators together. Devour Hope is a gigantic gamble and makes the game even more snowball reliant. And I don't think recommending noed to become a better player is even reasonable.
Ruin is the most reliable way of slowing the game down, even if it's, well, not reliable. I have seen very few players, even among streamers, who hit greats literally all the time. For each good skill check you hit, you lose ~4s. If someone activelly looks for the totem, the perk already paid for itself, because anything that takes survivors off generators is a blessing, even if for 30ish seconds. Even if they hit all greats they're still losing time. The flat amount of time it saves you merely by existing is worth a perk slot by itself, especially because killer's aren't exactly stacked on powerful perks. There are good perks, but when you compare it to survivors there's a lot less versatility. The opportunity cost for running Ruin is negligible when compared to the opportunity cost for survivors when choosing their perks.
It's not reliable but it's the best we have. Other options are either downright weaker or even more reliant on survivor mistakes.
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People have just been spoiled with the way the hatch has worked for the last years.
It was always meant to be a "whoever finds first wins" scenario.
Now it's working as intended.
You're welcome.
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Nah EGC is fine as it is just stop
Sure let's put hatch grabs in the game again, they along with not being able to close the hatch totally weren't the reason why the endgame was #########
You're just trying to solve an imaginary problem with another problem that THANKFULLY was solved with the last patch.
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"survivors used to delay the game too!!!!!1!111!1!!" is not an excuse to waste someone's time.
It's not a competition to see who's more petty yknow
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The Game for killers doesn't even compare to Haddonfun for survivors.