From killer to killers - about ruin
Hello fellow servants of The Entity. I see a lot of people overrating Hex:Ruin. Don't get me wrong, it is the best perk to directly slow generator repairs... but it is still very bad and inefficient perk. Why?
Ruin relies on skillchecks which are rng. I had multiple instances of generators that didn't generate a single one. Good survivors can hit greats. Which means it only prevents bonuses on greats if you are facing good survivors.
Ruin is hex perk, it can be found instantly or never. Good survivors will not waste time looking for it and just genrush through it. If you also run noed you have 1 totem less for it.
Do you see where i go here? When ruin is needed (against good survivors) it has no effects, because its just completely 'avoidable', so you play with only 3 perks against good players. When you don't need (against potatoes) you... well... don't need it. It actually helps players to learn hitting those great skillchecks, which results in faster progression on everything.
What are the alternatives? Whispers, discordance, surveilence, knockout, sloppy butcher, devour hope and noed. Use one of those instead of ruin and you will improve.
Yes, improve as killer, and here is why. Lack of ruin makes games of various ranks go similiar. Killer either applies enough pressure to slow the game or gets genrushed. With ruin on, you will get through many trials with ease, but then face a wall of genrush. As i stated before, ruin only works against bad survivors. If you play without it on lower ranks you naturally learn how to apply pressure without it so you won't get bullied on higher ranks. Knowing when to sacrifice a generator, abandon chase or slug is the key, one cannot just do those randomly and hope for best.
I know that i am messy writter so feel free to ama really.
Edit: Remember that game was, is and always will be unbalanced in favor of survivors, don't get mad/discouraged by bad games (especially against swf) and have fun, its a video game :). No risk = no gain.
Comments
Not every good survivor can hit great skill checks, some of us lack proper eye to hand coordination. I run TOTH with my ruin and I play nurse so it isn’t an easy job cleansing my ruin. Discordance is easily countered, whispers may let you find survivors easier but it isn’t a substitute for a pressure perk, devour hope is good with TOTH and a mobility killer, noed is easily prevented and often leads to one kill, surveillance is a really good perk though.
@TreemanXD If you can't hit greats, you should try everytime, so you learn. If hit good just wait 3 seconds and keep repairing.
Toth and ruin. Nurse doesn't need any perks really, but its just playing without 2 perks, which could be bbq, m&a, nurses, bloodhound or iron maiden which turn nurse into beast. Of course keep playing as you enjoy and as works for you, but against good surv its -2 perks basically. In time when you needed them.
Discordance is there to let you know about last gen popping or proovethyself, while noed is there to punish genrush/ignoring totems and nothing more really.
@HazeHound my problem is eye to had coordination and I’m not the only survivor like this. I like using ruin, TOTH, BBQ&C and nurses on my nurse.
I run stake out since skill checks will never be easy (for me).
@TreemanXD See? Survivors don't even need to be good as there are perks for it. Stake out, this is not happening and technician.
If you havent try m&a and nurses together, try it, its hell of a fun. Healing aura outside terror radius :D.
Have fun hunting, with or without ruin.
I never felt a NEED to run it.
My game's are fine outside of genrush + efficient loopers.
I've said numerous times already - Ruin is bad perk. I dont run it as Killer even at low map pressure ones, cause they have standart mobility and in most cases I will end up with 3 perks after 1 minute of match since I cant even reach it before it gets destroyed.
Take Thanatophobia/PGTW/Sloppy/Franklin's/Nurses/whatever else and you will have more benefit.
I use discordance personally (+ thanatophobia for slowing), I find it is a good way to know if I should drop a chase to protect a problematic gen. Doesn't help when they get smart and realise you have it though, encourages splitting (which can be worse to have 3 gens to defend vs. 1 they're all rushing) and forces me to corral to a certain side of the map as I play a low mobility killer most times (mikey) I'll continue with it though because there's nothing sweeter than a 3 person gen and throwing EW3 in there.
Ruin is too situational for me, they'll likely cleanse it, it's subject to totem spawns which are terrible, survivors instantly know you have it (unlike H:DH which is the only hex I use because it's rarely given away early) and some survivors can power through it. I've heard PGTW/overcharge is better though. (but overcharge falls victim to skill check viability too)
Also as a survivor I've started running stake out so ruin becomes even more of a joke. I'm interested to see some killers on here that think ruin is necessary, I just find it's not a good use of a perk slot, but interesting discussion.
I mean I could just learn nurse if I wanted to win everygame without ruin. But sometimes I like to do well and not get genrushed for playing a non Nurse character.
Ruin isn't great. It's just way, way better than anything we have available. The difference with and without Ruin is astronomical. Even with all its downsides you mention it is still way better than any of the other options. Even half those other options you list don't really slow the game down almost at all and aren't really a choice.
All the other perks to slow the game down are objectively worse.
With Thanatophobia, you need 4 injured survivors to slow down a generator from 80 to 95 seconds iirc. Sloppy Butcher is only for healing.
Discordance falls flat if people play optimally and don't repair generators together. Devour Hope is a gigantic gamble and makes the game even more snowball reliant. And I don't think recommending noed to become a better player is even reasonable.
Ruin is the most reliable way of slowing the game down, even if it's, well, not reliable. I have seen very few players, even among streamers, who hit greats literally all the time. For each good skill check you hit, you lose ~4s. If someone activelly looks for the totem, the perk already paid for itself, because anything that takes survivors off generators is a blessing, even if for 30ish seconds. Even if they hit all greats they're still losing time. The flat amount of time it saves you merely by existing is worth a perk slot by itself, especially because killer's aren't exactly stacked on powerful perks. There are good perks, but when you compare it to survivors there's a lot less versatility. The opportunity cost for running Ruin is negligible when compared to the opportunity cost for survivors when choosing their perks.
It's not reliable but it's the best we have. Other options are either downright weaker or even more reliant on survivor mistakes.
+1 Basically this.
Reason why there's not many good others is more than likely cause they're afraid of a powerful combination with Ruin.
Corrupt Intervention is way better than Ruin because...
"Blocks the farthest gens from the survivors rushing them"
Irrelevant
"Isn't a Hex perk that can be taken out in 30 seconds"
Because it essentially cleanses itself
"Lasts for a solid 2 minutes"
Which makes the perk trash. Rank 1 survivors that aren't ######### will just sit back, not touch a gen and wait for the timer to end. Now it was a completely wasted perk slot. Those 2minutes isn't even time gained because you aren't getting a chase. It is literally just changing when the game starts and essentially just sitting everyone in a map afk for 2minutes.
I reached Rank 1 without using Ruin except for Hag (I didn't level her up enough to unlock it).
It's not necessary, but it's useful to waste some time.
So lets get something straight about ruin. At the start of a trial you as a killer are behind the map is at max pallet amount and you need pressure immediatly.
Ruin at worst reduces all great skill check progress to 0% from what 3% to 5% per great skill check on a gen. If they misss the odd skill check you get a decent regression bonus and briefly stuned gen progress.
This requires no killer interaction meaning a weak opening chase isnt going to cost you 3 gens. Ruin can be destroyed which indeed suck but it also makes it an asset. It can bait survivours there giving you an immediate chase.
Ruin is a baseline perk that ensures games dont end fast early on if you mess up no other perk for killer does this. Four hands on gens start of the game your one killer who has limited slow down.
RUIN IS MANADATORY. Otherwise you risk losing the game with a weak start.
It's not necessary, but if you don't have it the game is even more snowball reliant.
If survivors are playing optimally, you need a truck load of momentum and you also need to not lose a single inch of that momentum if you want a really good game.
With ruin, you don't need that as much.
Ruin trains survivors to hit greats. Overall it will make gens faster.
Ruin is trash, Surveillance is better.
@Poweas once I get surveillance I’ll try it. I still gotta save up 1mil bp to P1 her.
there is no longer point in ruin, survs just bypass it....we dont even hunt for it anyonre
I wish I had your teammates!
You guys have valid points, but ruin doesn't slow the game when killers need it (against good, efficient survivors). Just watch TheEntityLeftHand how he keeps survivors busy without ruin (when he is not memeing with wievers that is... xD).
Edit: Of course, if there is even one bad survivor in game it is kinda worth it, but i hope you get what am i trying to state here.
This is it exactly, its the best we have and its not even that good, while survivors have a plethora of very strong perks that can be stacked together and placed on all 4 of them. And with the terrible map design combined with that AND adding SWF potentially on top of that, the odds are so stacked against killers. The devs just need some actualy competition and they will either finally be forced to balance the game or let it die. I hope Hide or Die is that game, but I've been let down before.
@Vetrathene I hear you man, and these are my thoughts exactly.
But the game is in the best spot it have ever been: no vacuum, ds doesn't break game anymore, hatch standoffs removed, end game fixed and not punishing normal survivors. For this i am glad as heck!
But there are 2 map offerings that are just broken, haddonfield and crotus prenn. Every map of those 3 is literally infinite looping with some skill and balanced landing which is a shame. There should be one map on every realm designed in favour of survivors and one map designed in favour of killers, so you can't just burn map offering, take perk and be untouchable. I'm looking at you too, mirror Myers on Lery's and hex Doc on The Game.
Best realm is Trappers Estate. Many maps easy for survivors but there is possibility of getting shelter woods which is one of best killer maps. Every realm should be like this.
Also swf should be shown to killers so they can take better crap against them and not bully 4 randos with random iridescents.
Ruin is really strong if they fail to find it and it's more of an issue for good to average survivors (if you use it on bad survivors, you're just cruel). If you get really good gen jockeys, they'll be able to hit all of the greats, though a lot of them rely heavily on stealth and aren't too good with chases. Even if they hit all the 'greats,' they're doing the gen slower.
It actually helps players to learn hitting those great skillchecks, which results in faster progression on everything.
You make a good point with this, though.
What are the alternatives? Whispers, discordance, surveilence, knockout, sloppy butcher, devour hope and noed. Use one of those instead of ruin and you will improve.
You forgot Corrupt Intervention, Thanta, and overcharge. I wouldn't consider Whispers, Surveillance or NOED something that affects in-game pressure, either, or generators.
With ruin on, you will get through many trials with ease, but then face a wall of genrush.
Higher ranked survivors are more likely to adapt and you do make a good possibility, though a lot of really good killers use Ruin and it's more to just slow the game down than anything else. Getting better at playing killer is something that comes with time and practice.
I think my least favorite part of Ruin is that it's a Hex perk. It's completely unreliable whether it will help you throughout the match or get cleansed at the start (unless you bring TotH). I think different perks can benefit differently killers differently.
I agree the SWF group(s) should be shown to the killer in the lobby.
I notice if survivors can't hit skill checks they just Gen tap. It looks funny watching them do it. My experience with ruin has led me not to use it much mainly due to Spawn locations. Most good survivors know what locations to check on most maps and swf 4 man all 4 know where it is when one finds it.
IMO Thana + Sloppy is more powerful than Ruin and will actually slow down the game against good survivors. Good survivors tend to not heal and just gen rush, which Thana punishes, while Sloppy punishes them for healing, so it's a catch 22. Either way they are wasting time.
The catch is that it's a combo instead of a single perk, and requires you to actively hit multiple survivors. Also with the recent (and unnecessary) Thana nerf it's less effective than before.
Since no one seems to fully grasp this ill remind you all. Ruin make survivours get zero gen bonus progression from hitting greats. That is actually insanely powerful.
Doing the math on gens. It requires 80 seconds to finish a gen. 5% bonus progression awarded per successful great. This means for each great survivours hit they take 4 seconds off the required time to complete the gen.
Bare in mind toolboxes increase the frequency of skill checks which means ruin also negate frequent toolbox great skill check progression thus dramtically reducing progression.
Compare that with thatnatophobia and other perks and pop goes the weasel and you will see mathematicaly ruin is undeniably the best stall perk in the game.
As killer ruin is the best stall perk because your role as killer is to snowball and reduce survivour defenses thus halting progression.
Other stall perks have no opening game effects so by not equiping ruin your likely relinquishing at least 2 gens worth of progress in the opening chase. Due to the map having max pallets in play and all other stall perks requiring set up or awkward conditions.
The only immediate early game stall is corrupt intervention which i admit is very good with trap killers who want survivours moving towards trapped areas.
However ruin is the superior option for general killer gameplay. Next time you start thinking ruin is crap imagine the gen your next to having 8 additional seconds of time put in and ask yourself would that have made a difference.
Main problem with ruin is that is super strong against randoms and solos and weak against good SWF.
When ranking and facing solos people become too dependant on it and when they reach the SWF squad rank they play with 3 perks because they either find it in 30 seconds or they are able to hit the skill checks with ease, meanwhile you are losing time checking the totem from time to time.
Id rather use overcharge, people love to tap gens during a chase.
P.D. great skill checks only advance the bar 2%, not 5% like someone said.
I've been experimenting without Ruin on my main (Spirit). Like you said, Ruin gets cleansed early when I need it and if I don't need it, the games could just end sooner.
My current build is Save The Best For Last, Agitation, Nurse's, and BBQ. The goal is to substitute Ruin for perks that allow constant pressure.
STBFL is obvious. Less weapon wipe time, and back to chasing. I found that I was losing a lot of time hooking survivors, and Agitation also gives me more basement hooks and far away hooks for added map/gen pressure. Nurse's to not allow healing. BBQ for pressure immediately after hooks.
Edit: I've seen Corrupt Intervention mentioned. I think it's a trap perk. It causes survivors to spread out early instead of being grouped up. I've ended up in awful gen spacing situations every time I've used it.
Agitation is a wasted slot and STBFL is only good against idiots which is where it doesn't matter anyway. The whole point of STBFL is to phase quicker after the first hit, but that is never happening with your power off cooldown because that would mean you literally ran them down for the first hit. Against any even half competent survivor you aren't running them down as a Huntress with no hatchets. Against decent survivors you will be landing hits out of spirit phase which means it will be on cooldown rendering STBFL pointless. STBFL is a trap perk that is only useful on Spirit against potato survivors.
@TreemanXD it's godlike. Especially on Spirit and Nurse. Those 2 REALLY benefit from it.
Also Hex Ruin is counter-able, here's how...
1) Repair, Stop, Repair, Stop, Repair. --> Gen Complete
2) Destroy the Totem. --> Wastes Survivor's time. But get's rid of it for good.
3) Hitting Great Skill Checks --> Is not a sufficient way to fix a gen..
4) Bring in a Key that opens Black Locks --> Allows literally 3 Survivors to escape. But it is extremely rare to get.
Now.. Here's the results..
2/4 --> efficient to get gens done and doesn't have to deal with hex ruin. (Destroy Totem & Repair Stop Repair Strat).
2/4 --> The other 2 is extremely rare to see a Survivor doing and is unlikely to be done by anyone. (Key & Great Skill Checks)
So the perk is evenly balanced but it does have it's downsides...
Would you rather have Hex Ruin or Dying Light?
Hex Ruin or BBQ & Chili?
Hex Ruin or Etc.? That's up to you.
But to me Hex Ruin bugs the survivors and makes them do random stuff. Which is beneficial to the killer. But also sacrifices other perk builds that could make that certain killer more efficient.
So it just depends on your viewpoint.
Agree to disagree I guess. I just listed two reasons why Agitation is useful. I can't think of a game where I couldn't hit survivors unless it was a phase hit. Time saved is time saved, anyway.
For your first response, it is relevant. It allows you control over which 2 areas you'd like to patrol; the blocked gens or the non-blocked gens as well as if you're a Trapper player like me, allows you to set traps and find survivors before they can get 1 gen done.
As for your second response, you are correct. It does cleanse itself. But at least the time it lasts isn't dependent on RNG and praying to the Entity that it's good to you because if not, that hex is gone in less than 30 seconds.
As for your last response. From my experience, the perk is only trash when you make it trash. Depending on how you use those 2 minutes decides whether the game is gonna so easy, medium, or hard on you. Hex: Ruin is overrated in my honest opinion. It's RNG based, can be destroyed, and trying to depend a totem instead of defending the gens results in a not-so-good time for a killer when the survivors know how to keep distance and stay hidden.
The areas it lets control for patrolling is irrelevant because decent survivors aren't doing anything. They are just waiting the 2minutes out. They will literally hide in the corners of the map or near the blocked gens so that you find no one. Lastly, Trapper is one of the only 2 killers that can actually get use out of this perk so that is quite an exception, not the rule.
At least the Ruin has a chance to get lucky with its placement. Your Corrupted Intervention is literally doing nothing. Its best case scenario is that the game gets paused for 2 minutes at the start..which nets you nothing. Obviously barring the one off exceptions like using Trapper.
I do not believe that Ruin is good, it's just the best option we currently have.
"From my experience, the perk is only trash when you make it trash"
You have no control over how effective this perk is. The survivors hide at the edges of the map or near blocked gens and you get nothing. Survivors completely control this perk. I would rather an RNG perk than a perk I have no control over.
I know where this idea comes from but don't you think the killer would just doge the swf group? Because some people don't want more difficult /toxic games.
@LapisInfernalis That's why there should be a REWARD for going in against SWFs.
Oh the futility.
For me it depends on the killer and the rank I am playing at if I use Ruin or not.
I rarely use Ruin on yellow ranks, because you don't need it, whereas on green and purple ranks I do use it, because it helps at the start of the match.
I do not use Ruin on Legion because the Thana/3rd Seal combo is strong (at least for me). I have no Ruin or Noed on Freddy, so I tend to use Thana/BBQ/Devour Hope with Hounted Grounds.
Before 2.7.0 I used Remember Me and Rancor instead of BBQ and HG. A nice way to get the obsession killed.
With Spirit I use Ruin with HG, with Doc I like to use Ruin or Devour Hope with Toth, M&A and the tape that gives you the 20m beam with the electrode (green). No one would touch anything when they know XD.
In general I think Ruin is not bad, but it relies too much on RNGsus to be good. The real problem is, why we have to use Ruin. But this is another story.
I agree.
I personally dont like running ruin because it gets broken soon into the game and i hate the feeling of a wasted perk slot, instead I run dying light or tanatophobia, while not exactly the most effective, they are good alternatives to slowing the game down